# Episode 48 – Josh Kugler from American Pinball

**Source:** Head2Head Pinball  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2018-06-18  
**Duration:** 146m 8s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://www.head2headpinball.com/2018/06/18/episode-48-josh-kugler-from-american-pinball/

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## Analysis

Josh Kugler, software designer at American Pinball, discusses his background in custom pinball games using P-ROC, his hiring by American Pinball after Pinball Expo, and the rapid development of Houdini from concept to Texas Pinball Festival. He details the creation of Houdini's rules, mechanics (trunk catapult), software versioning philosophy, and design approach targeting three player skill levels (novice, enthusiast, hardcore/tournament).

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Josh Kugler was hired by American Pinball just weeks after Pinball Expo 2015, out of desperation to find available talent after experienced pinball people were already employed by Jersey Jack or Stern — _Josh states: 'Exactly. It was probably just a couple of weeks after that that I got in contact with them and they were looking for somebody. And, you know, just, be—it was there. Aren't a lot of people available. Most of the experienced pinball people have been hired. They're working at Jersey Jack or they're working at Stern.'_
- [HIGH] John Popadiuk's original Houdini design was scrapped entirely by Joe Bouser because there were too many fundamental design flaws, requiring a complete restart — _Josh explains: 'Joe took a look at it. He looked at the design, and there were just so many things wrong with it that he felt like it's just going to be better to start from scratch than to try to make this one work.'_
- [HIGH] Houdini's trunk catapult mechanism was not physically tested until 3-4 weeks before Texas Pinball Festival, and initial testing showed the throw falling short until power settings were adjusted — _Josh describes: 'We didn't even try it out until literally a couple of weeks before Texas... And we hit it, the ball throws, and it doesn't come close. It's like way short... And finally, we get the power supply. We find out how to crank it up, and bam, it hits.'_
- [HIGH] Houdini software achieves 90%+ trunk throw reliability on properly configured machines, with one arcade location achieving 97% reliability — _Josh states: 'We have one on location here at an arcade. I was there recently checking it, and over since the last time the audits had been reset, it was at 97%, which is phenomenal. My goal I always said is if we're above 90%, be great.'_
- [HIGH] Josh deliberately avoided traditional software version numbering (e.g., .87) because players interpret decimals as percentage completion, and instead uses quirky specific numbers like 18.5.4 — _Josh explains: 'I do not like the traditional software numbering, especially for pinball. I don't like that when it's .87 that people think that means it's 87% done... there is no master plan and what the end destination is, because the destination—the final destination—changes on a regular basis.'_
- [HIGH] The Master Magician wizard mode was not yet implemented in Houdini at the time of this podcast recording, planned for a 'couple weeks away' update — _Josh states: 'This next update is a really large update, and it does put in the last pieces of major functionality, specifically the Master Magician mode... So I do need to get that done. So the next release, they'll have that and one of the other mini Magician modes that was missing.'_
- [HIGH] Only three people—Josh Kugler, Joe Bouser, and Jim Thornton—were responsible for building Houdini to the Texas Pinball Festival prototype, with occasional contractor help — _Josh explains: 'As far as getting the machine built, it was really Joe and Jim and myself, and occasionally getting some folks to help us out.'_
- [HIGH] Josh worked with Spooky Pinball on low-level operating system improvements that benefit both their games (Houdini and Total Nuclear Annihilation) — _Josh states: 'There are actually some improvements we're working on for the low-level operating system that we're cooperating with Spooky on, because it benefits both of us and our customers and just improves code updating and some things like that.'_

### Notable Quotes

> "I have a long career as an executive in software companies, and it was like, let me do something fun and maybe I could get into pinball."
> — **Josh Kugler**, ~03:45
> _Explains motivation for pursuing custom pinball games as a career transition from software industry_

> "And I always told them they were crazy because I was certainly not a proven commodity at that point. But I think it was out of desperation that they decided to hire me."
> — **Josh Kugler**, ~04:15
> _Candid admission about American Pinball's hiring pressures and lack of available talent in the industry_

> "He looked at the design, and there were just so many things wrong with it that he felt like it's just going to be better to start from scratch than to try to make this one work."
> — **Josh Kugler (describing Joe Bouser's assessment of Popadiuk design)**, ~07:00
> _Critical technical decision that led to complete design restart just before Texas Expo_

> "I was like, 'What's this supposed to happen?' And Joe's like, 'You can't do that.' I said, 'Yes, I can, and people are going to love it.' And most people do."
> — **Josh Kugler (on Man from Beyond mode)**, ~24:30
> _Shows designer confidence in experimental rules design despite mechanical concerns; reveals Joe Bouser's conservative approach to novel mechanics_

> "There's three types of players out there. There's the novice... There's the enthusiast... And then you have the really hardcore players... And as I looked at the rules, I felt it was important to make sure that the needs of all three of those groups were being addressed."
> — **Josh Kugler**, ~20:00
> _Core design philosophy for Houdini rules targeting multiple skill levels_

> "I don't like to move games, so I like games that are going to make me enjoy them for a long time. And that's what I wanted Houdini to be."
> — **Josh Kugler**, ~28:15
> _Reveals design priority toward long-term home collection appeal over immediate novelty_

> "Scott and I talk probably every day. He and I have known each other for 10, 11, 12 years. And there are bits of things that happen on TNA that make their way to Houdini, and there's some things that happen in Houdini that make their way to TNA."
> — **Josh Kugler**, ~31:45
> _Reveals ongoing collaboration between American Pinball and Spooky Pinball on framework and code improvements_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Josh Kugler | person | Software designer and rules programmer at American Pinball; previously created custom pinball games (Casino, etc.) using P-ROC platform; hired December 2015 after Pinball Expo |
| American Pinball | company | Boutique pinball manufacturer that hired Josh Kugler to develop software and rules for Houdini after original designer John Popadiuk's design was scrapped |
| Joe Bouser | person | Mechanical designer and engineer at American Pinball; redesigned Houdini playfield from scratch after rejecting Popadiuk's original layout; designed trunk catapult mechanism |
| John Popadiuk | person | Original Houdini designer whose playfield design was deemed fundamentally flawed by Joe Bouser and completely scrapped; involved in broader American Pinball management/partnership issues |
| Jim Thornton | person | Senior mechanical engineer at American Pinball; former Jersey Jack employee; one of three core people who built Houdini prototype; described as 'linchpin' making things happen behind the scenes |
| Houdini | game | American Pinball machine designed by Joe Bouser (layout), Josh Kugler (software/rules); features trunk catapult, stage toy, multiple magician modes; software at version 18.5.4; Master Magician wizard mode pending |
| P-ROC | product | Programmable pinball control board platform used by Josh Kugler for custom games (Casino, etc.); framework evolved into Mission Pinball Framework HD / Skeleton Game |
| Matt Andrews | person | Artist who created original artwork for scrapped John Popadiuk Houdini design; Josh apologized to him about artwork being discarded |
| Spooky Pinball | company | Boutique manufacturer; collaborating with American Pinball on low-level operating system improvements; also uses Skeleton Game framework |
| Scott | person | Software developer at Spooky Pinball; collaborates daily with Josh Kugler on framework improvements and code sharing; creator/lead on Total Nuclear Annihilation |
| Total Nuclear Annihilation | game | Spooky Pinball game built on Skeleton Game framework; shares code improvements with Houdini through Josh Kugler and Scott's collaboration |
| Zidware | company | Failed pinball venture that influenced Josh Kugler's decision not to start his own pinball company; represented cautionary tale of Zidware implosions |
| Texas Pinball Festival | event | Event where Houdini prototype was shown; point of reference for John Popadiuk design feedback; trunk mechanism first tested 3-4 weeks prior |
| Jersey Jack | company | Premium pinball manufacturer; Josh Kugler explored potential fit with them before joining American Pinball; Jim Thornton formerly employed there |
| Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; referenced as employer of most experienced pinball people in industry; Josh aware of Stern's standard practices (e.g., Swedish pricing support) |
| Mission Pinball Framework HD / Skeleton Game | product | Open-source pinball software framework evolved from Mission Pinball Framework; used for custom games and commercial titles; requires commercial enhancements for audits, pricing, testing |
| Ryan C | person | Co-host of Head to Head Pinball Podcast; Australia-based; previously interviewed Josh before this episode; asks technical questions about Houdini design |
| Martin | person | Host of Head to Head Pinball Podcast (Australian); previously interviewed Keith (Elwin) and other industry figures; conducts interview with Josh Kugler |
| Fireball | game | 1972 Williams pinball game that Josh Kugler played as a child (age 10) at a friend's house; sparked lifelong pinball fandom |
| Williams | company | Historic pinball manufacturer that shut down around 2000; Josh Kugler's local arcade was Williams' test site; inspired Josh's machine collecting |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Custom pinball games and P-ROC platform history, Houdini design philosophy and development timeline, Software versioning and rules design approach, Trunk catapult mechanism development and reliability, John Popadiuk design rejection and fresh start, Three-tier player skill targeting (novice/enthusiast/hardcore)
- **Secondary:** Master Magician wizard mode development status, Collaboration between American Pinball and Spooky Pinball on framework improvements

### Sentiment

**Positive** (0.82) — Josh is enthusiastic about Houdini development, confident in design decisions, proud of software feedback received, and collaborative. No major negativity expressed, though he acknowledges challenges (trunk testing timing, software framework limitations, 'chatty' interface feedback). Hosts are engaged and supportive.

### Signals

- **[community_signal]** Josh implements verbosity control options in Houdini based on community feedback about 'chatty Cathy' mode introductions; multiple settings available but defaults rarely changed (confidence: high) — Josh: 'Almost before the first release of the game, there was a dozen options in the adjustments to control the level of verbosity of the game... hardly anyone ever changes the default options—certainly not on location.'
- **[design_philosophy]** Man from Beyond mode with all-lights-off mechanic and random extra ball throws initially opposed by Joe Bouser as 'You can't do that,' but ultimately well-received by community (confidence: high) — Josh: 'Joe's like, You can't do that. I said, Yes, I can, and people are going to love it. And most people do. There's a few serious guys like, You can't do that. But most people really, really love the mode.'
- **[design_philosophy]** Houdini designed to appeal to three distinct player skill levels (novice/casual, enthusiast/collector, hardcore/tournament) with rules targeting breadth and long-term engagement (confidence: high) — Josh explains: 'I felt it was important to make sure that the needs of all three of those groups were being addressed... There's a lot of breadth to it. There's a lot of different things you can do on it.'
- **[personnel_signal]** Jim Thornton (former Jersey Jack) described as 'linchpin' behind-the-scenes engineer critical to Houdini's development; characterizes team as scrappy three-person core operation (confidence: high) — Josh: 'Jim's been in the industry forever. He was at Jersey Jack. Nobody knows who he is, but he's one of those guys behind the scenes that just makes things happen. I refer to him as our linchpin.'
- **[personnel_signal]** Josh Kugler hired by American Pinball in December 2015 after Pinball Expo, coming from custom game background with P-ROC platform (confidence: high) — Josh states hiring happened 'probably just a couple of weeks after' Expo 2015, 'right after Thanksgiving, so basically December 1st for all practical purposes'
- **[product_strategy]** Master Magician wizard mode not yet implemented; Josh states next update is 'at least a couple of weeks away' due to being 'pulled in other directions' (confidence: high) — Josh: 'This next update is a really large update, and it does put in the last pieces of major functionality, specifically the Master Magician mode... The next update, which is at least a couple of weeks away, because I keep getting pulled in other directions.'
- **[product_concern]** Initial testing of trunk catapult mechanism only 3-4 weeks before Texas Expo revealed power delivery issues requiring calibration; voltage fluctuation problems still being addressed in field units (confidence: high) — Josh describes late testing and post-launch voltage regulation solution: 'one guy who's having an issue... he reports, well, I do use solar power, and my voltage drops 10 volts... we're actually working on a solution for people like that.'
- **[business_signal]** American Pinball intentionally designed Houdini with significant software depth (multiple magician modes, secret missions, stage modes) to create long-term home collection appeal and repeat engagement (confidence: high) — Josh: 'I wanted to create the rules... with a lot of depth to Houdini... you can approach the game in very different ways... gave the game a wax that you'd want to keep it in your collection for a long time.'
- **[technology_signal]** American Pinball using Skeleton Game framework (evolved from Mission Pinball Framework HD) requiring significant commercial enhancements (audits, pricing, testing) not present in original open-source version (confidence: high) — Josh: 'That framework wasn't designed to be used commercially. So there's a lot I've had to improve, enhance, and change... audits, support for that, pricing, all the adjustments, expanded testing.'

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## Transcript

 Welcome Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 48 and my name's Martin and with me each week, it's Ryan C. And I'm getting a bit sick of that Keith versus Keith battle. So should we start another one, Marty? I think we should. We had Josh on. Yeah, we had Josh on last week. Should we get another Josh on? Who can we get that's called Josh? Josh versus Josh. I reckon that sounds awesome. All right. So with us today, that's a horrible intro. With us today, we have none other than American Pinball's Josh Kudler. How are you going, Josh? Great. Great to be here with you guys. Now, before you start work at American Pinball, let's wind back the clock a little bit and talk about what projects you were working on before in the pinball industry because I met you in 2016 at the Chicago Pinball Expo and you were in front of a kind of like a Frankenstein game because you had wires coming out of it and it was like a casino gambling pinball game and you had optical character recognition on a rolling dice. What were you doing before you worked at American Pinball? Well, what you're referring to there is my game casino, which is a custom game. Ever since I was a kid, I wanted to make pinball machines. And when I was a kid, I did it with nails and rubber bands and I did a re-theme of an at one point, and then when I heard about the P-Rock, I'm like, wow, I can actually do my own game. I actually did two games. Casino was the second game. And it was just, that was, you know, really a great thing to be able to create a game from scratch and do it. And I had a lot of fun with Casino. The reading of the dice with the camera is pretty cool. So I had done a couple of custom games. I was pretty active in that community. So why were you doing custom games? Was that because you could or were you wanting to prove to somebody that you could? Well, you know, what's funny about that was I heard your chat with Keith, and that was news to me that he had sort of done that as his resume. Yeah. Now, that wasn't my intent. In some ways, it became my resume. So I did it because I wanted to do it, and it was fun. And I did at that point say maybe I can get into pinball. I worked really a long career as an executive in software companies, and it was like, let me do something fun, and maybe I could. So I started to look at different things I could do in pinball after that. I actually talked with Jersey Jack at one point to see if there was a fit there. I even contemplated doing my own thing, but after some of the, you know, the Skit B and Zidware implosions, it was clear that was not a direction to go. and so I was kind of doing what I was doing when American Pinball reached out because they were looking for someone. So when did they reach out? Like what's the timeline there? Was that after Pinball Expo when they kind of announced they hired Joe Balsa? Exactly. It was probably just a couple of weeks after that that I got in contact with them and they were looking for somebody and, you know, just be it was there aren't a lot of people available. Most of the experienced pinball people have been hired. They're working at Jersey Jack or they're working at Stern. So I think he was a little desperate. So you've got to find somebody. It's the best they could find. They took a chance on me. And I always told them they were crazy because I was certainly not a proven commodity at that point. But I think it was out of desperation that they decided to hire me. Thank you. But surely you were a massive pinball fan already, right? Yeah, I've been a huge fan forever. I started collecting back around 2000 when Williams shut their door. There was actually an arcade near me, and they always had the best and greatest pins. And it wasn't until after it closed that I found out it was like, well, Williams' test site. Which is funny why they always had the latest and greatest games. and when that disappeared, that's when I got interested in collecting. But I've actually been a pinball fan since I was 9 or 10 years old. I had a friend in elementary school whose dad sold pinball machines retail. So he always had a couple in his basement. So when I was 10 years old and now I'm 1972, Fireball came out. He had one brand new in his basement. I mean, you couldn't get any cooler than that. So when you were contacted by American Pinball, were they interested in getting you in as a hardware or a software guy? Obviously, you kind of built a machine from scratch, so you kind of dipped your toes in a bunch of different areas of making a pinball machine, but where was your fit in the company? It was to do with the software and ultimately the rules. I didn't quite know how that worked, but it was software, although I did get involved in the electronic systems and other parts of the game because we were really a three-man operation as far as getting the Houtini prototype to Texas. There were just three of us. So who are those three? That's you, Joe, and who's the third person? Jim Thornton. We had some contractors as well. The StageMech was developed by a contractor. But as far as getting the machine built, it was really Joe and Jim and myself and occasionally getting some folks to help us out. So Jim's been in the industry forever. He was a Jersey Jack. Nobody knows who he is, but he's one of those guys behind the scene that just makes things happen. I refer to him as our linchpin, and he's a great guy. And Joe obviously did the design and most of the mechanical engineering on the game. And I was writing software with no whitewood, just using it on my computer to write the software and develop the game in time for Texas. Which version of Houdini were you working on? Because there was obviously, there was the original design that then changed. Right. So by the time I started, the John design that he had done was literally trashed. I mean, it was thrown at a back corner. Do you know why that was? Can you talk a bit about that design and why it wasn't used eventually? Yeah. Joe took a look at it. He looked at the design, and there were just so many things wrong with it that he felt like it's just going to be better to start from scratch than to try to make this one work. And obviously the whole John situation had a lot going on, so it was really beneficial to have a clean break from John. So starting over, new art, and all that was really sort of essential to kind of separate the John portion and his involvement with American Pinball where they were building it for him. And part of that agreement was to design a game for them. But it was better to part ways. And I felt bad for Matt Andrews, who did some beautiful artwork on that game. And I talked to him about it, and I told him so. And I said, there was nothing against your artwork. We just felt we needed to go a different direction and start fresh. Yeah, for those sort of catching up, this was John Popadiuk who originally came on. It was part of a deal with, you know, getting American Pinball to do Magic Girl and a design. So John Popadiuk designed a layout for Houdini and then Joe Bouser came along, looked at it and said, yeah, it's probably not going to work. Let's start fresh. And the other thing about that as well is that you've really got something up and running really quickly. Yeah, it's still somewhat surprising when we look back on it. So Joe started the new layout right after Expo, or shortly thereafter. Because anyone who looked at it at Expo who saw that layout would have said the same things Joe did. There were just some things that didn't make sense in there. So he started on a fresh layout, and then I started with them right after Thanksgiving. So basically December 1st, for all practical purposes. and at that point Joe had just finished the first CAD of the play field where he was basically the first time he was willing to kind of show it and talk through it which was pretty much my first day and I think he was actually pretty excited to finally be able to talk to somebody else about it we had a mechanical engineer who had been helping John with stuff and was giving Joe a little bit of help before he left us but Joe was really excited to show the play field And I can still picture him. He hung it up in the wall of my office, and we started to talk through the layout and what he had put together. And this was just a whiteboard. There was no sort of talk about art yet at this stage. Right. This was literally the first time he had a diagram. I mean, there was plenty of stuff still missing. It was basically the slings, the pops, where the ball, you know, the flat rails are going, the ramp. There was kind of a placeholder where this stage was going to go. and at that point the trunk concept was certainly there and that place was there was really that first drawing of seeing the layout. And at that point I asked to make a couple of changes to the layout as I was starting to work through the rules. So within two or three weeks I started to formulate the rules but really not a lot of time. What I didn't know going into this was who does the rules. You know, is it the designer? You know, is it the programmer? and, you know, it's a little bit different in every case depending on who's involved. At least that's my impression now. It would probably be the size of the company as well, like whether you can have dedicated, if you're a smaller team, you've got to wear a couple of hats, right? Right. Well, I think it's, you know, I don't think Joe has ever had any interest in doing the rules in his games. So it became pretty clear quickly because I'm trying to figure out, okay, what am I doing? And Joe's pretty much like, okay, all right, you go do the rules and software and I'm going to go do this and I'll see you in three months. Because Joe did have, you know, his basic concept was, because you certainly want to design the layout around some aspects of the theme. So, you know, his concept was around the fact that we'd have the stage because that's where Houdini would typically perform things. So that sort of became the centerpiece. We knew that was going to be the main toy. And he wanted to do the throw the ball and the trunk thing the trunk being also a classic Houdini item. So those kind of became sort of the centerpieces of the layout in the game. So speaking of the trunk, because that was probably one of the first things that people noticed was this trunk that flies the ball from, I think it's about two-thirds of the way down the playfield, all the way to the back. And it's very impressive, and everyone spoke about it. Was that really difficult to get that mech working as often as it does? Not really. So Joe did the design, and I'm looking at him. I'm saying, is this really going to work? He's like, yeah, I did the geometry. It's going to work. And we didn't even try it out until literally a couple of weeks before Texas because we finally got the piece of wood cut and wired it up. So maybe it was three weeks before, four at the most, I guess. And it was late. We set up. We finally got a whitewood that had just been cut. And we mounted the catapult and the trunk. And the trunk had already gone through a couple of iterations at that point from Joe's original thought, which would be spring-loaded fraud. And then we said, no, it really has to open. And then we kind of changed that a little bit. And we were finally ready to test it out the first time. And we just took up a power supply, too. We're just going to hit the wires. And we hit it, the ball throws, and it doesn't come close. It's like way short. And we do it a couple more times, and it's not getting there. And finally, we get the power supply. We find out how to crank it up, and bam, it hits. Bam, it hits. And bam, it hits. And we were extremely happy people. But those sort of things, I mean, let's talk about machines that are 20 years old or even older. Over time, those things get a little bit weaker. Yeah. How does the MEC compensate for losses in power? Well, unfortunately, there was no way to really automatically do that. So you can adjust the coil settings, and what we have found with a few exceptions is once you get it set up and figure out the right volt, the right power setting for your home, it's 90% plus. We have one on location here at an arcade. I was there recently checking it and over since the last time the audits have been reset to us by like 600 games it was at 97% which is phenomenal my goal I always said is if we're above 90 be great is there a way to detect short throws and long throws but if it does for some reason come up short there's just so many different places it could land other than putting a sensor in the front which we knew would never work effectively there was no real way to adjust automatically. Whereas the challenge is some people, if they have fluctuating power, there's one guy who's having an issue, and people are trying to help guide him through it. Also, he reports, well, I do use solar power, and my voltage drops 10 volts between the daytime and the nighttime. And I'm like, yeah, that's going to be a problem. So we're actually working on a solution for people like that to potentially solve that for the handful of people who potentially have voltage regulation issues. that caused it to be less than 90%. So where's, you know, that was kind of, I guess, you know, a year or so ago, and then, you know, you promised that you would launch the game before the end of 2017, and you did ship one or two, I guess. And then fast forward to now, you know, they're still shipping. Where's the machine at now? Like, has there been any hardware revisions? Has there been anything you've changed and learned along the way compared to the earlier models that shipped? Or has everything kind of been fine and nothing's changed? Yeah, there's been some really, really minor things that we found. You know, on the production side, pretty early on, there were some just things around the wiring, you know, some minor changes to add, you know, brackets or things to improve the wiring or something early on. we've changed we found that the outer orbit rail wasn't going out consistently early on so there was more focus to make sure that was right that the ball was feeding properly to the left flipper and then we communicated out to early customers how to correct that if it wasn't hitting the right spot on the flipper recently what happened at one point was I rolled out some new software and put in a new skill shot requiring more skill and having more value. And we found that the shooter lane design, depending on exactly how it was assembled, wouldn't necessarily hit the top target of the three targets that come into play with the skill shot. So a minor change was made there, and that was posted for people who were having that problem hitting that upper target. So it was a very minor fix. One of the things that surprises me is how few ball traps we've run into, primarily because the amount of time that Joe spends and Jim spends on ball traps from the earliest design point. There'd be things I'd look at and say, well, why can't we do this? And with some ornamental item or something, Joe would be like, ball traps, can't do it. So there's one or two that have gotten through that. They're working on some tweaks for people who maybe haven't been able to adjust it right. But surprisingly few issues have come out there. Now, you know, we ramped up production slower than we'd like, and literally the first 50, 75, maybe it was even 100 games, Joe or Jim or myself reviewed that game to really try to make sure nothing was slipping through. And he's able to get everybody up to speed. And our game tester, George, really does a phenomenal job now, really knows his stuff. He's been in the industry for quite a few years, and he does a really nice job at the end. And Barry, our service manager, also does some of the final game checking, and they're both very on top of things. And for Barry, it's important because if there's an issue, he's going to get the phone calls. So he's motivated to make sure they go out right. So what are some of the bottlenecks that kind of stand in your way to ramping up production? Because we kind of often see it with some of the smaller companies, you know, having timelines of, you know, going to produce five a week for the first couple of weeks and then ten. And then I think now you said in a recent interview, Joe said you're up to about 35 a week. Is that correct? Yeah, I think that's where they're at. Yeah, it started pretty slow. Well, the first thing, and it's one of the reasons why you see pinball companies struggle, So you need every part, and it's thousands of parts. And if you're missing just one or two parts, it can be enough that really makes it hard to get things done. At one point, we were still waiting on parts, and we had built up like 30 playfields as far as we could, and they were just sitting on rotisseries wherever we could put them. So that is the single biggest challenge. That was what slowed us down in getting games out quicker. We got out, I think, three or four, you know, at the very end of December. It certainly was symbolic, but at the same time, you know, to have said we were going to do that and to do it, to get those out there, and they all went out on location. One of those games is at a location where I believe it has now had 20,000 plays on it. So one of the very first games to go out the door. Now, the first three or four, we did find one of the things we found early on It was an issue with some of the switches we were using in the left lock. They're roll under, and I guess there's two different versions of that switch with different tensions, and we switched it, and we were having some problems. We switched it and it went away. So we actually had to send somebody to like Iowa and Wisconsin to where these first three or four machines went out to go replace those switches and a couple other tweaks we made after those first three or four games got out in the field. It's all good learning these things, right? Absolutely. But, you know, like I said, the delay was parts. That's what slowed us up. It was just a few parts that, you know, we needed. And when I would look at some of the stuff going on with other companies, they said, we're going to start in a couple of weeks or whatever it was, and say, you know, you just never know what it's going to take to get those parts. And I guess we'll see how some of the other startup company does with that issue. So what's the feedback been then? So, and I guess we can break it down into, you know, mechanical feedback, whether people are happy with the build quality. But then you've also got playability and software. What's the feedback that you've been aware of? You know, it's been overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly positive. You know, the biggest criticism that you hear is it's got tight shots. We've not heard that. Ryan, have we heard that? No, never heard that phrase before. So let me tell you that it has tight shots, and it does have some tight shots to it. And what I love about that is the emotion it creates in people in a variety of ways. The love of the tight shot, that that's what I want because, you know, I like a challenge. Whereas the, oh, my God, that's too tight, I can't play that game. and my favorite is the group who have now found that, yeah, it was tight, but it is making me a better player. Sure. And that's very rewarding when you hear somebody. And one of the interesting things with Houdini, it's a very low-scoring game. We felt he's a character from, or personally from the late 1800s, and doing that lower scoring made sense. Joe did that with Waz, so he did the same thing. So if you break a million in Houdini, that's a really good game. And so it's been fun watching people who really have struggled at first with the shots who are now breaking a million or a million five because, you know, they're finding the shots and they're improving as a pinball player. So where are we at code-wise? Because I'm looking on the American Pinball website now, and you're up to version 18, which I guess is kind of a different format than other companies use. but are there more features to come in Houdini? Are there more modes? Like, you know, is there anything to be changed? I've only played a couple of games on it, so as far as I can tell, it's felt pretty complete a couple of months ago, but you're the software guy, so talk about software with us. So, yeah, the version, I think the latest version available is 18.5.4. I sort of early on decided I do not like the traditional software numbering, especially for pinball. I don't like that when it's .87 that people think that means it's 87% done or that there's a magical formula around it. In fact, if you go back and read things or see quotes, people say, how complete is the software? And I'll throw out very specific numbers like 89.67%. What amazes me, once in a while, there's people who think I'm really serious that I've got a master plan and I know exactly where we are. Well, I can tell you there is no master plan and what the end destination is, because the destination, the final destination changes on a regular basis, meaning, you know, ideas or thoughts come to mind and things. I think, yeah, at some point I'm going to put that in there. But right now, the next update, which is at least a couple of weeks away, because I keep getting pulled in other directions, just not able to finish it. This next update is a really large update, and it does put in the last pieces of major functionality, specifically the Master Magician mode. Is that the Wizard mode? I'm sorry, go ahead. Is that the Wizard modes? That's the Wizard mode, right. We call them Magician modes because we're sticking to our theme. So there's three mini Magician modes, and then the Master Magician mode. We actually have now seen some people starting to get into the mini Magician mode, so that's nice to see. so I do need to get that done so the next release they'll have that and one of the other mini magician modes that was missing and at that point the major functionality is all in the game and we'll be doing some smaller adds, some clean ups, some improvements to light shows improving some of the animations and we'll continue to do those things until I'm either really really completely happy with it or freaking tired of working on it so what has been I guess the feedback that you've heard about the software, because that's really what you're responsible for. I mean, we obviously heard, you know, the catchphrase Steven Bowden coined it, which was, you know, tight but findable shots. That's fine. What about the code and the modes? Have you had good feedback there? The feedback's been great. I couldn't be happier with it. You know, when I sat down to work on the code, my thought process was that there's three types of players out there there's the novice which is a person who comes to your house and says they still make pinball machines there's the enthusiast which is probably the largest chunk of the players out there that are people who enjoy pinball, they know pinball, they either collect or they like sneak it out on location etc and then you have the really hardcore players many of whom were tournament players who were very focused on the rules and the strategy and that piece. And as I looked at the rules, I felt it was important to make sure that the needs of all three of those groups were being addressed as best I could. So there were certain things I didn't put in the game specifically for the novices, and I think that's worked well. And things I put in there really for the advanced players, and I know that works well because it's the things people complain about as being really hard. so I'm like well exactly because that's really something for as players so okay that's good you know when I looked at the layout that Joe put together you know when I looked at it I didn't really think the shots were all that tight okay well maybe I did I took out the ruler and measured the shots and then came home and measured shots in some of my other games and I'm like okay yeah it is about the same as on this game you know the one really tight shot but of course when I looked at that in that lower left loop shot, which is a really cool shot. And when it rolls through there, it's really an interesting shot. But I knew that was going to be a difficult shot. So right away, thinking about the rules, it was making sure that those aren't things that maybe need to be done too frequently and that the right payoff is there for making the shot. So the lower left loop shot is the first of two shots needed to increase the play field multiplier. So if you're a competitive player, you're a tournament player, You've got to be able to make that shot immediately then hit the ramp if you want to increase the playfield multiplier, which obviously has huge benefit. So what are some of the other rules that you've introduced that you're most, I guess, proud of? So I think the two modes that people have the most fun with, because they're very different, one is called Man from Beyond. Now, Houdini, I didn't know. I knew a lot about Houdini when I started on this, and then I did a massive amount of research. I read a couple of autobiographies. I watched all five of his movies. I did not know he was a movie star. He was a silent film star, as a star in the Hollywood Walk of Fame for his movie career. I've watched his five movies. I do not recommend them. Just better off playing the movie modes in Houdini is all you need to know about the movie. $7,000 is a lot of costs Exactly That is better One of them, The Grim Game Is actually a pretty good movie The others, they were probably very good In their day But The Man From Beyond The plot of the movie is Houdini's character is frozen In ice on a ship For a hundred years and then gets Thawed out Which basically means that given that this film was made around 1910 that Captain America stole their storyline from the beginning movie. But he's thawed from the ice and he doesn't realize it's a hundred years later, etc. Anyhow, so the mode kind of replicates the movie in which the first phase is you have to break him from the ice and when you do that a second ball is put into play. Then you have to hit a couple of orbits to free him from the insane asylum. And then another ball is put into play and all the lights in the game go out with the exception of the spotlights above the slingshots and a white pattern kind of running through the inserts. And you still get some light coming off the stage. And the animation at the time also goes relatively dark with a spotlight moving around in which you need to spot where Houdini is on the screen in order to know which of the three lit shots is the one that's actually going to pay off with the jackpot. So the first time that Joe ever came across this, Joe doesn't keep up on the rules very much, and I was going to be gone for a few days. I said, you guys, play the game. Let me know if you run into any crashes. And I come back, and Joe's like, there's a serious problem with the game. There's a stop mode. It just randomly throws extra balls, and all the lights went out. I was like, what's this supposed to happen? And Joe's like, you can't do that. I said, yes, I can, and people are going to love it. And most people do. There's a few serious guys like you can't do that But most people really really love The mode and really have a good time with it So are you designing This game more towards the Home collector I mean as you said Before there's three groups of people But you know how much of it do you Think about people on location Versus you know Are most of the sales going to Home users I couldn't say the breakdown Between it I mean there's a ton of them on location, probably not nearly as many as we would like. So it's probably a little more slanted right now towards home. And that's a big challenge for us is a lot of people still don't know who we are. As you guys know, there's no Houdini in Australia. Well, there wasn't up until the last day or two. Yeah. That have touched down. Now, I assume they arrived there because I did see a report from Wayne on Facebook that they disappeared from inside the plane and nobody knows where they were. No, I actually spoke to Wayne on the phone yesterday. Well, they were on a courier on the way from the boat, the dock, to him, and we're going to be streaming it this Wednesday night. Oh, that's great. I'm happy that it has finally gotten there. I know one has now made it to France, and I think one or two have made it to Germany, and there's a few more heading over there. So I'm actually very excited about People overseas getting to play it But to get back, when I looked at the rules It's a $7,000 toy A lot of them are going into Homes, and even if they're going out on location In all likelihood Eventually they're going into a home And so I really wanted To create the rules again, and there are certain Things in there designed for the novice and for Location play, but I Wanted to create a game That would not necessarily have depth and there's a lot of depth to Houdini, but also a lot of breadth to it. There's a lot of different things you can do on it. So you can approach the game in very different ways and go after different objectives, especially for most of us who are never going to get to the Master Magician mode, although everybody will be able to get to the Master Magician mode. We'll come back to that. But that you can approach the game after. I'm just going to focus on can I get through all of the jail escapes? Can I get through all of the movies and get to those many wizard modes? Can I get through all the secret missions All of the stage modes So I tried to make sure there was a lot to do That gave the game a wax That you'd want to keep it in your collection for a long time I don't like to move games So I like games that are going to make me enjoy them for a long time And that's what I wanted Houdini to be Okay, so what's really interesting here is So you've had to Like from a software point of view You've had to do everything Pretty much So rules, framework light shows, the whole lot and then you're talking about how you've got three levels of players that you're my question to you is take this in a positive way how do you become an expert at this so quickly? Well, I certainly am still becoming an expert, I don't know I'm an expert and I've learned along the way and I've listened to people along the way so I had a framework to start with or a partial or a good chunk of a framework. My work on the custom games had been with the P-Rock and with the PyProc game framework, or actually the PyProc game HD framework, which has now evolved into, expanded to something that's also referred to as Skeleton Game. You've probably heard of that because Total Nuclear Annihilation is built on Skeleton Game. In fact, I've got quite a bit of code in that game as well, both stuff I did in the framework and helping Scott with things. Scott and I talk probably every day. He and I have known each other for 10, 11, 12 years. And there are bits of things that happen on TNA that make their way to Houdini, and there's some things that happen in Houdini that make their way to TNA. There's actually some improvements we're working on for the low-level operating system that we're cooperating with Spookion because it benefits both of us and our customers and just improving code updating and some things like that. So that framework existed, but that framework wasn't designed to be used commercially. So there's a lot I've had to improve, enhance, and change. I had to do major overhauls to the animation display system, the sound. It had no support for taking money. So after Texas and over as we started heading towards production, there's all of those things that are needed in a machine that are not fun to work on but you have to have them there. Audits, support for that, pricing, all the adjustments, expanded testing, all sorts of that stuff that all had to be created and not that enjoyable to do. Fortunately, we won't have to do that on game two. so that's but there are still glitch, things missing in the game so for, we had a couple of pricing plans that were missing and I'm sure we're going to need more, we only had three Switch inputs and a lot of the guys in Europe want six so that was something I missed and we're making change. Well it took Stern about three or four years after Stern after Star Trek being released to add like the Swedish money thing so you got You've got about three more years to get that in, the Swedish price options, before you can lay it in stern. The funny thing is, right now I have some Swedish coins on my desk, but it's just one denomination, so that really doesn't help me very much. Before we move on from software, Pete, some people have commented that when a mode starts, you kind of get all the instructions. I think the other Josh that we interviewed last week suggested that some people call it a chatty Cathy. You start a mode, it gives you all the instructions, and then you have to remember them and play the mode. Do you take any of that feedback on board I mean obviously people have been saying that for a while Is that something that might change Is it a menu option Do you think about splitting up the instructions and giving to them as people shoot What do you do with that? So first of all, I don't care what anybody thinks ever. All right. I listen to every piece of input that comes in. I am always happy to listen and then, you know, decide what makes sense and what doesn't. I am willing to change what I do. I don't think I know it all. But at the same time, almost before the first release of the game, there was a dozen options in the adjustments to control the level of verbosity of the game. It is absolutely a chatty game. There is no doubt about it. And some of the defaults turn those things off, meaning when you get the game you can even make it more chatty if you want to go turn on a few things. So there's tremendous control around that. It's typically for the modes what you're going to have is, you know, if it's a stage mode, there's always a Houdini sort of an announcement in the Houdini voice. And we only use his voice typically to introduce the tricks on the stage. There's actually only three or four recordings of Houdini's voice. We track them down. And our voice actor spent a lot of time learning the tone and the patter of his speech. So we could really emulate that well. Then our sound guy really kind of tweaked the sound to give it that feel. So he does an intro. Then the narrator tells you what the shots are. So you can control, turn on and off both of those. And you can flip or escape through the whole thing. You hold the flippers in for a half second, and it'll skip through all of that, assuming that option's turned on, which is the default. It will let you still have another option where it'll tell you after each shot is made what the next shot is. so tell me if you want to know and you make your choice now shoot this I mean me and Marnie kind of talked about this before you know after I played the game for the first time and I had that discussion with you at Texas I mean hardly anyone ever changes the default options certainly not on site because they don't care as long as it's making money they don't care but someone's impression of the game is based off that. You know, do you think there's a balance somewhere where, you know, there's a perfect kind of, like, setting and then people that have it in their home can adjust it to whatever they want, but, you know, do you think there's a balance there somewhere? Like, you know, at Texas we talked about making the first mode easier. I know there is that one shot that you can shoot, the ring shot, the key shot, I think it's called, that, you know, hits a switch and then goes through and hits the stage and then that's your one-shot mode start. so clearly Ryan you haven't been keeping up oh Ryan you haven't been keeping up because there's actually the new default behavior on the game and it's based on conversations like the one I had with you is on your first ball it takes just a single hit to the stage to open it there we go exactly it was an excellent point that two or three hits to the stage was a couple too many Let's just let people get in there right away and get to that first mode. So, you know, that was a change that made. But to go back to the speech thing, here's my response then. So an experienced player, the first time they play the game, they're going to listen to it, right? They're going to check it out maybe their second time. And if you're an experienced player, you know that if I hit both flippers, it's going to skip through all that. So I don't have to hear it, right? And if you're another experienced involved player. You said you have to hold the flippers for about half a second. It's a quarter of a second, whatever it is. you hold them in for a second, a quarter of a second. I mean, the normal behavior on every other pinball machine is just both at the same time. It's a quick bang. Right. That's what it is. It basically is that. Okay. It's a fraction longer. Okay, yeah. Right. So I'm saying you know to hold the flippers, and you'll skip through it. So it's there for the novices, and for people who know, you can skip through it. The only thing you can't skip through right now are the magic hat pulls. and the next release that'll change on at least this will sound strange but the first, second and fifth you can skip through it the other is right there I won't explain the details but that's kind of how that sets up. Now of course you really don't want to skip the second one because that's where we typically throw kind of an easter egg in there for you. That's where you get some of your fun Yeah For those who know the game know what I'm talking about. Yeah yeah I reference the other bit more. Yeah, there's one or two that haven't made it in yet. I haven't. I've got one I need to. I think it needs a little bit more time before it'll be appropriate to put it in, we'll say. Awesome. So when we're going to stream it this week, what do you think our approach is going to be? So when we started up, I like doing this because I've actually not really watched too much footage of Houdini. Ryan obviously has played it because I don't like spoilers. I like to experience things for the first time. But if I am going to be playing this on Wednesday night, what am I going to be expecting? Well, the shots are going to be tight. Yeah. And it's going to be shocking. It's going to be chatty, and hopefully you guys will have the settings right, but you know that you can hold the flippers in and you'll get through it. Do we get super exclusive beta code to test out? Not for next week, no. We definitely not want this current code in the current state it's in. It's not suitable for consumption yet, by any stretch of the imagination, although there's a lot of nice things in there that I'm looking forward to getting out to people. but you know and the shots are you know what I tell people all the time and there really is a big part of this is true is a lot of it is in your head you know people look at it and they go it's a tight shot and they like freak out trying to hit it you know and I have watched hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people play at shows and it is amazing how often girlfriend wives and kids can hit that shot every time you tell them to shoot for it. And the husbands and the dads can't hit it at all because it gets into your head. So don't let it get into your head. Just play the game and just relax about it. It's not that tight. But having said that, when you, just from a rules standpoint, the lanes, the lower lanes spell film, which is what lights a movie mode, and that's one of the things that starts off that inner loop shot. So you always want to try and make sure you get that spelled so when you make that shot, you get the movie, and if you've locked a couple of balls, that's a great stack because the movie and the multiball will start together. So from a strategy standpoint, a good thing to do. But I think you're going to find it a fun game because there's a lot going on in it. A lot happens, and even if you're not doing well, you're going to get seance multiball and that's what we put in there for the novices not that I'm calling you a novice but shoot the right most shot so tight shots are surrounded by very very thin stand up targets Joe did not want posts in the game and we basically created stand ups that are about the same thickness as a post and so when you're not making the shots I can step up to the game and I can't hit anything or I can step up to the game and I'm making every shot. Just sometimes you feel it and sometimes you don't. And if you don't, you're going to hit all these stand-ups between the shots, and that's going to light seance multiball at the right scoop. And one of the things I always recommend is make sure we make sure that the left sling is strong because that will help feed that scoop for the novice. And then they get a multiball that has magnets doing crazy stuff with the ball. And if you're not a big pinball fan, but you get multiball and Magnus are doing wild stuff, you feel like you beat the machine. It's funny because, you know, Houdini's kind of been out for a while now. I mean, a while in pinball terms. For me, pinball machines are coming out. It's still fairly fresh. But in Australia, it's kind of like this brand-new thing where it's just arrived. People are starting to talk about it. You know, it's kind of hit a good spot between, you know, Iron Maiden, even though that kind of still hasn't been launched, probably in Australia. There's a lot of people that have been messaging me saying, oh my gosh, I'm thinking about buying a Houdini. Like, when do I get to play it? You know, what do you know about it, et cetera. So we look forward to playing it this week. We'll give our feedback next week, I guess. Kind of moving on from Houdini and talking about American Pinball in general, we heard last week in the interview Joe did that American Pinball is kind of like you run out of space and you're moving into a new factory sometime in the near future. Yes, which is a good thing Because my office is actually What used to be a conference room And is still a conference room And was rarely used as a conference room And still is rarely used as a conference room Except now I have our animator issues Camped out in there And we have a new guy working on some marketing stuff Who was camped out in there Of course I have a machine in there And I kind of like quiet Other than the machine when I'm working But we are packed in like sardines there's no room in our parking lot the factory has parts in every nook and cranny that you can have we have no real room to work on things this was an existing factory right? this wasn't a factory bought just to make demo machines this was used for the previous business that I'm guessing is still going from Deval is that right? actually so our parent company is a company called Antron and they actually own It's a family of four or five different companies that they own. And our building was where one of those companies was previously before they moved to a much larger facility. So they had this building, and that was part of sort of their interest in getting into pinballs. They had this building, and it's a long story for another time. So we've taken over that building, and now we've outgrown it. And our new building is actually not too far from where their new building is, and I have no idea what they'll do with this one when we leave. So we actually probably won't be in the new building for at least another six months, but it'll be nice to have the space we need because it's just really cramped. And like I said, it's kind of frustrating to come to work and it's hard to find parking. You wouldn't expect that, especially early on when there were just basically three of us and we were in the offices in the front and the lab and the rest of the building was basically just this big empty space. So why did American Pinball want to get into pinball? I mean, I think the owner has kind of said previously that he's not like, he didn't play pinball as a kid. He's not like you or some other people in the industry. So, you know, was it the, I guess they make PCBs or something, and they were making a PCB for Magic Girl, and that's how the relationship began. Is that right? they do electronics for a lot of companies in that in the industry sort of slot machines and i think they do some stuff for some of the other pinball companies and they were doing some stuff for john and i think you know when you talk to um gobble and mukech what impressed them was the passion that pinball people have for what they do uh and i think they were very attracted to that And if you've met John and you've talked with John, he's a really passionate guy, and obviously most pinball people are. And I think they were very attracted to that, and obviously involved. They had product. There are circuit boards going into machines. And I think they thought this manufacturing was a good fit for something they could go into, and that would be kind of fun and different for them. And I don't think they fully really understood what they were getting into until now, but I think that was sort of their – they were looking to expand. to do something different, and I think they thought it was intriguing as something to do. Okay, so now that you're saying that you've run out of space, is that because Houdini is now fully ramped into production, or is that because you've also got the next machine that you're working on as well that requires space? Well, it's a combination of the two. So because Houdini is, as Houdini went into full production, it slowly took over pretty much the majority of the space in the building. And you're adding people along the way to support those efforts. And we're working on game two. So we have, you know, engineers and folks working on game two as well. And since we were pretty tight on space to begin with, it doesn't take much to suddenly be, you know, busting at the seams. And one of the things, you know, we actually brought on another programmer, and he's, I think, our only remote employee, which is Joe Schilber, who's based in Virginia, which is good because I'm not sure where we would have put him. So that kind of worked out well. So, you know, it's a combination of both of those. So that was one question we were going to ask about Joe. So how and where does he slot into the company? Does he work with you on finishing up Houdini or the next game, or does he do one game from his experience on Alien and then you work on Game 3, for example? Well, obviously getting Joe was great for us because there aren't that, as I mentioned earlier, not a ton of people understand programming pinball machines. And Joe's obviously been through quite the journey on Alien and everything I've ever heard about Alien has been just phenomenal. So it was great for us to be able to get Joe. Joe's going to be working on game two with me and for a while. And then my guess is that I'll probably move off that to work on game three. So right now, Joe and I have been working to get him familiar with the framework, how he did things through Houdini. We actually talk a lot of philosophy of how approaching different problems within pinball, how he approached them with Ailey and how I approach them. which gives both of us different ways to look at things. It's been great to collaborate with him on the rules for game two. I had some initial thoughts, but we've really worked through it. And he's really jumped in and taken a big part of the ownership of working through some of the rules and expanding them out. And it's been great to be able to collaborate with somebody to throw ideas off of each other and evolve. And you get to that point where sometimes you look at the rules and you don't know whose idea it was because it evolved through that brainstorming and combination, and that was something I didn't have very much of on game one. So that's been really nice since Joe's come on board. Okay, so what can you tell us about game two? Well, it's an unlicensed theme. Sure. It is a very well-known theme. That's obviously part of what we liked about Houdini. the layout is completely different than Houdini one of the things about Joe Balcer is that there is no set rules of how he does a game they're all completely different South Park, Apollo 13 I'm not sure we can get more opposite Woz, Hobbit Simpson's Pinball Party Simpson's Pinball Party, they're all over the place and that's one of the things that's great about Joe and the play field he has done for Game 2 is just completely different. You wouldn't realize it was the same person. So obviously the implication there is it's a more open play field. There are no tight shots. I will reveal, I don't think Joe has indicated this yet, so this is a scoop for you guys, and I'll probably get grief from Joe when he hears this. if he hears this. It's a three-flipper game. Oh, nice. There you go, which I like. I'm a big fan of a three-flipper game. I like having those additional shots. We've got a couple of really interesting toys planned, and I think it's going to, if it comes together as the design looks like right now, where we are and where the rules are going, I think it's going to be a great game. I'm really pleased with how it's progressing right now. We've got a long way to go. We're really almost sort of in that stage around when I started on the last game. We're not that much further along this time. We've had a couple of things we're working on. We do have some other things bubbling. But I'm really pleased with how this is starting to come together. So what, okay, so you, American Pinball revealed Houdini, pretty early and then kind of started shipping around eight months or so afterwards. In this kind of climate that we're in with so many kind of players entering the market and so many machines being released, you know, do you guys have a plan for when you would like to reveal the machine in relation to when you're going to ship it? Well, it was certainly, our goals to be a lot less than eight months. Yeah. You know, with Houdini, because of the issue, what had gone on with John and sort of the backstory with American Pinball, it was pretty critical on two fronts for us to get a proven prototype out the door quickly. You know, first of all, and I can't say this is truly what ownership was thinking, but if I was them and you had sort of gone through the John Papadiuk episode and now you're bringing Joe Balcer and they bring in me and another guy, I'm sure they're thinking maybe we just have J-Pop 2.0 these guys are really going to be able to deliver and make a game that can be produced and played and etc. and so Texas was pretty critical for us to get a game out there pretty quickly but at that point the factory really didn't exist the Magic Girl games that were built were built under John's direction and he was in charge and doing everything. And, you know, American people really at that point will have manufacturing experience, not with pinball. And they were relying on John. And so the fact that those magic girls are at all playable to some degree is somewhat astounding. I'm sure John will be pissed when he hears this and I'm saying anything. But, you know, that wasn't John's forte. And to be honest, you know, the running joke was after we had a couple of those guys start working on assembly of the prototypes was that they didn't really know how to solder correctly. And we first had to get them to unlearn what they had learned from John in soldering or how to gap a flipper or those types of things to be able to do it the right way. It was pretty critical to get the prototype out to prove that, and then obviously eight months was longer than we would have liked. I think we lost a couple months just because there was some issue with parts. But on game two, I certainly expect it to be a significantly shorter window from when we unveil the game to when we'll start producing it. Is the aim sometime this year for a reveal, or is it too early to kind of plan and predict that? Well, what Joe said at the Northwest show, and I was a little taken aback with some of his comments at that show, but they're out there. But, you know, it is our goal to hopefully show it in the fall at Expo. Expo's here in our hometown. You know, we'd like to support Expo. That's when we'd like to do it. But if the game's not ready, we're not going to show it. I mean, considering how long it kind of takes to get everything, you know, ready to go, you know, I guess as long as you don't need pre-order money, since you guys are pretty much distributing through distributors only, I believe. Has it ever been discussed that you show up at, say, Texas Pinball Festival and you reveal it and then there's a whole bunch of minute truck ready to go? I know people kind of joked about it before. Stern has the shortest lead time to market, but it's still like a month or two months to get stock. if you miss that window would it be possible to do something like that? Well in a perfect world it would be great, we've actually talked about that then part of me also says it would be very difficult to do that with our distributors and not creating a bunch of other issues around that and in a perfect world nobody would know what the theme is even though we haven't talked about what the discussed about theme is but in a perfect world if nobody had any clue what the theme was, and you could pull it off, it would be great, but then you really have no testing time. And the reality is, in a perfect world, what I would like is a month or two after you get the prototypes out there, to have 30 ready to go, that you get out there on location, and get a month or two while you're starting to ramp up production, to shake things out. We don't have 200 employees, we don't have 30 great pinball players to really test our game. And even if you did, you learn so much when games are out on location. So my view of the world is I'd like that kind of a short window where you have a month or so or two after an announcement before you start to ship, but getting games on location right away to get those learnings and figure out what's not right, what the issues are. So, yes, those people become guinea pigs playing on location, but that's how you make a better game. But again, you don't want that to be eight months. So where are you right now then? Have you got Whitewood ready to go or have you also got sort of like art design sort of nailed down as well? Well, obviously all that works in parallel. So a lot of the art's done at this point. We don't have a shootable Whitewood yet. I expect we'll have one in not too distant future. So all those things happen in parallel and the rules, the code, very much like we did the last time. If you haven't shot the game yet in whiteboard form, how do you know that the shots aren't tight? Well, I can tell just by looking at them. Just like the last time I saw them. I can assure you the shots are not tight. I can take the ruler to them and measure them, and I will tell you they are not tight shots. Now, I will say, they have South Park open shots. Like gobble holes? Yeah. And Joe knows this, so I comment all the time. I despise that game. I absolutely despise that game. Yeah, a lot of people do. It's one of the few games that I'll just walk away in the middle. Most games, you at least feign interest and play it out. Maybe you don't try. That's one of those games I'll just literally just walk away. Joe Kaminkow said last week that that game was so good that it shut down Williams, like that contributed to shutting down Williams because it was earning more on location than Revenge Remarks because people liked it more Right, well, but it's a great theme that attracts and it's an easy game if you're not a very good pinball player it's a great game, you know, a good pinball player can play that game forever forever and the problem with that game more than anything is the voice calls. They must have only recorded 12 or something. I don't know. They were so repetitive in that game. We had it in the office for a while. Joe brought in his Apollo 13 and his South Park. You can't get more different than those two games. I played the South Park the day he brought it and I never touched it again. I don't know if I finished the first game. It was just as bad as I remember. The Apollo 13, that was kind of a fun game. and then eventually he took them away, but we had them for a couple of months. He was kind of moving houses, so we brought them in for a while, which was fantastic, because at that point we had no pinball machines in the office, which for a pinball company to have no pinball machines, that was kind of sad. So, you know, with the changes that you had with the original Houdini art to the later, the original was a bit more cartoony, the latter was probably a bit more realistic, and I know people sort of talked about it being steampunk and sort of industrial area. With the machine number two, will you be going sort of more that realistic sort of art view, or will it be more sort of cartoon? Well, just to go back on the change in the style from the John style to the Houdini style, that was very on purpose, but a good portion of that was I had a real strong desire, and our artist did as well, and Joe, that Houdini is, especially when you learn about him, is really an incredible individual. And even though it was an unlicensed theme, I really felt it was important that this wasn't a magic-themed pinball machine with Houdini's name on it that was really about him and really a tribute to the man he was. So in regards to that, making him look like a cartoon version of an actor who played Houdini in a movie really wasn't where we wanted to go with that. And there's a lot of authenticity in the game, even though there's some fun stuff in there, it really is rooted in true Houdini lore, including the monkey with the bandage on his genital. Let's talk about that, because you had to kind of censor yourself for the Straight Down the Middle podcast. They kind of wanted to make it a bit more PG, but we're not PG here, So the story is, I mean, no one ever knows, right? Normally I don't tell this story because we prefer to people to go Google it, but I guess we've been now doing that for a year, telling people to go Google it. So I will give your listeners a break and not say just go Google it. But Houdini was an incredibly fit individual, tremendous shape, And it was a concern to him about his longevity and health. And there was the belief at the time that if you attached monkey testicles to your own, that it was sort of like the fountain of youth. And I guess it makes sense from like a testosterone boosting standpoint. And so this was something he was genuinely interested in. It is not known if he actually ever tried it. but needless to say after we read about this and as I said I did exhaustive research we just thought it was the funniest thing we ever heard and we incorporated that into the game and it's sort of become a little bit of our mascot we use him first he showed up on the play field and then we incorporated him into the game in my second favorite mode which I'd love to actually go back and talk about that for a minute and we put him in another place and I actually told our marketing guy a couple of weeks ago that we need to get stuffed animal versions of the monkey. It could be a topper. It could be a topper, right? It actually could be a topper, but a stuffed animal version, I think people would love that, so I do have him working on that. But just to go back on the monkey, and my other favorite mode in the game that people love is straight jacket multiball. Now one of the things when you're working on a game, you're trying to come up with some fun and creative things, and in fact I was probably sitting in the same chair I'm sitting now probably sipping tequila like I am now although not as good as the stuff I'm drinking tonight which is very good tequila in your honor I was thinking about things to do with the game and I was thinking about his different tricks and okay he does the straight jacket thing and that kind of said okay straight jacket arms crossed so that should be reverse flippers and then I said to myself well you know but he always did it upside down inverted So how do I do inverted? And I came up with the idea of having the flippers be up by default, and then you have to hold the flipper buttons in to drop them down and then release when you want to flip. Yeah. So it's inverted and reversed. So it's left controlling right, right controlling left, and having to play that way. And early on, a buddy of mine was playing the game, and we were talking about how, well, some people are just going to smack the flippers. They're just going to chimp the flippers. And he suggested that I should incorporate that in the game. So we created that. If you do that, if you're just hitting both flippers at the same time, the monkey comes out banging cymbals and gives you a warning. And if you keep doing it, the value of the jackpots gets cut in half. Wow, that's cool. So, you know, if you play it, you got to play it right. You know, and it is worth playing inverted. When you go to play and it comes up, go for the inverted, because the jackpots are worth three times what they would be if you only do reversed. And, again, the key to remember is to just, after you flip, to press it back. Because what happens is you do it, you get a successful flip, and you forget to put them back down again. But it's a great mode, and you should try it. All right, so I do expect the monkey will appear in game two. It's the ongoing thing. to get the monkey in there. So, Game 2, my biggest goal for Game 2 is to get some more humor back into pinball. Right. That's kind of where I was leading with this question. I was kind of wanting to know whether it's going to be sort of a serious theme or whether it's going to be a fun theme. Right. Houdini was obviously a serious theme, and some people would argue at some point I was too serious in teaching about Houdini, although we tried to get some good humor in there where we could. but certainly our goal on this game as I refill my shot glass is to get some more humor back in the game people love games with humor and that's going to be a big challenge for us because to be honest there are not a lot of funny people in our office, I'm probably the funniest person and I'm not that funny so that's a little bit of a challenge How do you do comedy in pinball? What machines do you think do it the best? Are you basing it off a 90s game that did it well, or do you just start from scratch? Because there really hasn't been that many funny games recently besides maybe America's Most Haunted. But I mean, I love that humor, but some people look at me laughing when I play the game, and they say this is not funny at all. So how do you do humor for pinball machines? I'll let you know in four months once I figure it out. You know, part of it is You try and joke around a lot I like to get people to drink more Because to be honest, that's one of my goals Is to get the team together And drink a little bit to get some stuff I've actually told the boss This is a case where I might say We really need to go bring in Some extra folks to help us Get some humor in there But it's just having some fun With the game and not taking things Too seriously And again, that's an advantage of an unlicensed theme is we can push things a little bit and say some things that you probably couldn't say with a licensed theme. And it is our plan to have a, you know, an option in adjustments for, you know, family friendliness. I don't know yet how much we'll need that. We'll see how far we go or where you want to draw that line. So we will do that so that potentially we can push things a little bit. But, you know, in this day and age, too far, we're not going to push it. So what I'm hearing is you're wanting laughter, you're wanting fun, and you're wanting a lot of drinking with the next game. Okay, cool. I've got all those three things together. Right. And it's all about balance. You know, everything is about balance. And, you know, sometimes people will look at an event or something they know about and they say, oh, that's all about drinking, when in reality that might just be a very minor part of what it is. It's certainly a part of it. But there might be many other things that go along with that. And I think it will be an eye-opener to people with what we're doing, how diverse it is like with Houdini. I'm sure most people did not know Houdini was a movie star and a spy for the government and a pursuer of psychics to debunk them, although a lot of people didn't know about that. And there are things about our second theme that I think people will be surprised about because they just have this thing in their mind about what they think it is. Once again, just $7,000 is all it takes to learn about the... You know, it's better than watching a movie and reading a book, right? Exactly. So is $7,000 the price? $7,000 US is that the aim for the second game as well? Or is that a floating amount depending on the game? That's the number we're really shooting to keep it at. I'm pushing very hard on that. Joe's pushing very hard on that. The challenge becomes you set a target for the bomb and that dictates what that price is. So we have to be able to hit the bomb if we want to make that price. And so that's the challenges and the decisions we make along the way in figuring out, you know, do we have to give something up? What do we give up? How do we make this work to get the game we want to get made at that price so we can keep it at that price? And I think with Houdini and Ryan, obviously you've seen it. Martin, you're going to get to see it for the first time. And I think it'll blow you away. It is, and obviously I'm incredibly biased and I acknowledge that. So, that's pretty, I'll give you that. It is an absolutely beautiful machine It is a full machine And actually I amazed at some of the mods that have come out that people have figured out how to squeeze things in and add things in And some of them are actually quite spectacular. But it really is a beautiful game. It's a world of a boss, you could even say, right? You know, I think you could say that. I think you really could. Especially with our sidearm, it really completes that world. But our artist, Jeff Busch, is probably the first. He's done other pinball machines in the past. and I can't name them off the top of my head. I think he did Apollo 13. I think he did Pinball Magic. I probably might have gotten those wrong. I forget what else he did. He used a little too much humor in a back last one time, and I think that's why he wasn't doing pinball for a while. So that's a story for another day. But in this particular case, he was given free reign to really do it. And you mentioned steampunk. So just to go back to that for a minute. So really early on, you know, it's Houdini. He's from the 1800s. How do you give this edge? How do you make this pinball? And it was our artist who first suggested, let's go steampunk. And to be honest, I didn't really know exactly what steampunk was. We Googled it, and it was like, oh, this is perfect. Absolutely, this is neat. We listened to the music, and it really helped bring things together. And it was the absolute perfect fit for Houdini. And Jeff had brought that to the table. But he did the backflips. He did the cabinet. He did the play field. he did the side art so it all fits together. Independence Day. Is that the last game that he did? Oh my gosh. That does not have been the one that created the issue because you know the timing on those things. I'd have to check. Mini Viper? Is that Viper Knight driving? No, that's... You got me interested. Like you got fired for putting a vagina on the It wasn't quite like that, but there was something that was put there that did not sit well with some people. And, you know, I think it was somewhat more of an inside sort of joke, but enough that it was. But, you know, he's done a great job. And so, you know, so while Houdini was done with this realistic, there's certainly more of a cartoony or comedy, whichever is the right term, to the style of our second game. Okay. Two more quick questions, and then we'll let you go. How many games does the American Pinball plan to bring out every year? I mean, is there a target of one a year? Is that the dream, or are you producing as fast as you can at the moment? Yeah, I think we'd like to grow at some point to doing more than one a year. I think we'd probably like to get to two a year at some point to get there to get the variety to do those types of things our primary goal is to do it right and grow as we can grow and we have to build things in place and continue to grow in that way but I don't think we'll be satisfied at one game a year for long but for right now if we could do a game a year I'd be pretty happy with that Okay. And American Pinball said from the start they don't kind of like the limited edition model and they want everyone to kind of have the same version. And now you guys kind of have all these options like the shaker and the magic glass and, you know, toppers and things like that. So will that ever change? Will there be a limited edition machine in the future possibly? or do you plan to just have an unlimited run of the standard model that everyone has and people can option up to their liking? Well, the first thing I'll say is I'm very much against having different versions where there is a fundamental change in the functionality of gameplay. Okay. I am not a fan of this version has this, but this other version has a mini play field. and I'm against that for a couple of reasons one being as a programmer I don't want to have to program those variances and variations in the game and just as somebody you want to put out a product that you're passionate about that you love I wouldn't want to do that now having said that there are many other aspects of the machine that impact the cost of the machine that are not critical to gameplay and we've done those as add-ons and it's certainly possible that we will look at combining a bunch of those things or doing some of those things of an ornamental nature and of an add-on nature that we package together in a different package so it's the same gameplay but it might have more things of ornamental nature I usually refer to as blinged out version because I think there's a demand for that but at the same time you want to try and keep a full complete game for people at as low a price as we can and when people look at Houdini now they feel it's a great value it's a lot of game for the money there's always people obviously that want to be as horrible as this sounds like better than others I've got the limited edition I've got something special versus something that you'll continue to make for as long as you can. And I'm happy to help those people do that as long as everybody gets the same great gameplay. Sure. I guess that's the style that JGP has with their machines. I mean, there's three different versions, but the software is 99.9% the same on all of them. Right. And that's where I'd like to be. And I think our distributors would like to have that model, and there are a few buyers out there who would like that model. So my guess is you'll see us do something in that regard of a package of enhancements that are available in addition to the standard one model, one price. Would you roll that back for Houdini, or do you think that might create a bit of a rift between the early adopters? Do you think maybe that'd be better just for the future of the company? Yeah, I don't necessarily see us doing that with Houdini. There's a couple of interesting ideas we've played with, but I don't think we would ever start having Houdinis going forward that are different versus potential additional add-ons. But it's certainly more possible on game two or game three that we package things together without reducing what we're doing in our base model. When I look at Houdini, would I remove the trunk? No. Would I remove the stage to do something? No. Would I remove the locks on the top of the pops, which are, well, just ornamental in most ways, is just way cool and just really enhances the game. I would not want to give those up. Now, you know, magic glass and side art and toppers, those are the types of things that I can see packaging together with some of all still being available on one-offs, but with the appropriate things put together. I mean, I think that makes sense. You know, some people want a shaker motor. Houdini doesn't scream shaker motor. We have a shaker motor. I like to think that we've implemented a way that enhances gameplay and the feedback for the people who have the Shaker Motor has been phenomenal, they love it that we try to enough to enhance without becoming something but if you don't have the Shaker Motor it's not that you're missing that your game is missing something, even same thing with knockers and things like that and all those things add cost, it would be very hard to make a $7,000 game if you include all of those things, you just can't do it So you kind of pick and choose. All right, Josh. Well, thank you very much for coming on our show and answering every single one of our questions. We look forward to playing Houdini this week. We're going to be streaming it on the Melbourne Civil War League on Wednesday, is it, Marnie? Yeah, it is Wednesday night, our time, which will be Wednesday morning US time. Yeah, well, it's about four o'clock in the morning. I'm not sure if everyone else in the US, yeah. Maybe I've got one of you guys to play. I think we've got to learn some rules because the game has been out for quite a while and everyone kind of knows how to play except us so we look forward to playing that and look forward to seeing what American Pinball comes up with in the future, maybe later this year in October Hopefully that'll happen Awesome I should mention before we get there that we do have some interesting things coming up with you D&E and we're doing some additional voice calls on there that I think people are going to really enjoy. We're getting some new voices in the game. I think people are going to appreciate that. Yeah, for sure. That sounds great. We've got to get some more legit voices in the game. We've got a Chicago guy in there. We really need to get a better Australian accent. I think people, now that the game's going to be down there, it's a priority for me to make sure we get a better Australian accent in the game. Awesome. Sounds good. All right, Josh. Catch you later. Thanks, Josh. So there you go. That was Josh Kugler from American Pinball. How'd you go, Ryan? I went good. How did you go, Marty? I went good. You always ask me how I went. Well, I thought I'd... Normally I say, and what did we learn? Well, we actually learnt quite a bit. Yeah, I'm looking forward to their second game. I mean, we didn't mention what we think it is, which is... I know, but... Yeah, I mean, hey, we can't just, like, not mention it this episode. No, I know. But I am actually, like, the way they kind of talk about it and other people are kind of talking about it, I'm actually really excited. Yes. And more to play it. I mean, I don't want to put a business hat on and say, you know, this is going to do wonders for them, they're going to sell a million units and this, this and that. I just want to have fun playing pinball, and that's what this seems like a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's a couple of things I got out of it. One of them is that they are very aware, I guess, is that they understand the feedback and, you know, that was their first machine. Like, let's not forget, well, taking Magigirl out of it, but that was their first, like, full production machine. I think big clap for them for getting that machine out. It's a fully-fledged machine. It looks great. Yep, of course, everyone's talked about the fact that it's type of findable shots. That's great for their first machine. So they can only learn from that. And by the sounds of what Josh is saying is that's what they're doing. They're opening up the shots. They're going to do something fun. I like the sound of where they're heading. Yeah. Well, I mean, he also said that Joe Belser has, like, no two designs that are really similar. Well, that's not, like, the same issue. So, I mean, the next game could go back to the same thing. I mean, it's just a bit of a pinball lottery. But let's move on to someone who has never had a pinball machine. Marty, have you heard about Sandra Bullock in the pinball news this week? Yes, I have. So she was a fantastic actress. So from such amazing films like Miss Congeniality. Steve, that's probably her finest work, right? Yeah, yeah. I've always had a bit of a soft spot for her. So I don't know, there's something about her. I find her very likeable. Yes, it seems like she'd be cool to hang out with. but basically during an interview during Oceans 8, I guess the female version of Oceans 11, female only, they were kind of talking and there was some action figures and things like that and she said that she never got given a Demolition Man Pimmel Machine, but Stallone and who else was it? Well, the quote that I put in the show notes said, all the men in the film got one and I'm the only one that didn't get one. What do we think? So I literally shout out to Warner Brothers that I want a vintage Demolition Man pinball machine. Did I tell you that I met Stallone in Vegas? No, and that was the kind of thing that you would tell me. It was a quick encounter, but... Man, someone needs to interview him or someone involved with the project to, like, figure out what actually went on because it seems like a he-share. She wasn't really involved in the pinball machine besides having a mug on the Translight, right? And she's just kind of now saying, hey, I want a pinball machine. Give me a pinball machine. Was anybody else involved in the development of the pinball machine? Wizzy Snipes did custom voices. Sure. I can play the guitar. The accordion too. Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. He did the square rums as well. That third guy, I don't know what his involvement was at all. He was just there in the room. and it was like, yeah, I'll take one too. I'll take one. Yeah. I'm going to message Sylvester Stallone and see if I can get him to come on the show. Do you reckon that'll work, Marty? Yeah, I don't know. Okay, I'm seeing now. Hey, Stallone, you know, give us a call on Skype if you can explain the situation. Look, I think the point that she was making was all the guys got one and the girl who was also the star of the film didn't get one. Do you remember the movie, Marty? Like, she didn't have... Oh, she sells. Ah. Yeah. Okay, she had a bit of a role, but not like... She had a great role. Yeah, okay. She was the character that I found funny. Okay. The funny thing is, if you go on the Pinside thread, everyone's kind of like, we should buy her a machine together as, like, a pinball community, and that would be a good news story. Like, hey, you know that news story from last week that Sandra Bullock wanted a pinball machine? She got one. I don't know if the news cycle works like that. It was just like a viral piece for a day, and then it's forgotten. But in the pinball world, we're like, oh my God, a famous person mentioned pinball. Let's hold on to it. Well, did you hear, or did you see all the news reports this week about Lou Ferrigno getting his Hulk machine? Yeah. Are we moving on from the Sandra Bullock thing already? No. All I'm saying is, no. No one did, because it's not in the news. No one cares about celebrities getting pinball machines. Yeah, no one gives a fuck. Right? Yeah. Oh, shit. Sloane's calling. Marty? Okay. Don't fucking say anything, okay? Okay. Hello, Sly? Is that you? Yo, hey, how you doing? I'm good, man. Haven't chatted to you in a while. Me and Marty are just sitting here talking about the whole Sandra Bullock demolition man pinball situation. Yes. Yeah, she didn't get a pinball machine and you did. Can you shed some light on that? Well, I know I got one and so did Snipes and Brat, but I don't know about Sandy. She might have a different deal. Okay, so was she, like, maybe next on the pecking order? Like, did she just miss out, or...? Mmm, I know the director got one, too, and I think a couple of extras. A couple of... Oh, jeez, this must be pretty flat down. Anyone else got a deadless advanced pinball machine? Come to think of it, I think the food services guy got one, too, and I know my limo driver did, and, oh, yeah, my vocal coach. So, Sly, are you a pinball fan? Do you still have your Demolition Man pinball machine? Actually, I traded it. Ah, for another pinball machine? No, no, no. I traded it for a letter-folding machine. I hear there are things in the future. Okay. I don't know whether you heard that, but, yeah, fair enough. Before we move on from Demolition Man, Can you let me know about the mystery of the three seashells? How do you use them? You know, come to think of it, maybe that's why Sandy didn't get a pinball machine. She got a ton of toilet paper. We got those freaking seashells. You ever wipe your ass with one of those? A seashell? Yeah. No, have you? Yeah, for the three months of shooting that fucking movie. That's okay. Hey, that's why your voice is so low. I didn't want to get crabs that way, I'll tell you that. You can make it worth your while, right? Your voice work on Demolition Man is amazing, especially Museum multiball. So much variation in your voice for every single chord. That's it, mate. That's it, yeah. Will we ever see you work in another game again? Actually, I've been contacted about a couple other games. Yeah? Which ones? One about Rosetta Stone and hooked on phonics. Okay. Are you sure they got the right person? Well, let me think about it. Go fuck yourself. When will, you know, besides the pinball machine, when will we see you again on the big screen slide? You got anything you want to plug before we let you go? Yeah, we just wrapped up filming a movie about a bunch of 80s action stars. We come out of retirement to fight crime in IBS. It's called the Dependables. I can't wait to see it. Hook me up with some red carpet tickets. You know my address, right? You guys have movies in Australia? Isn't everything Mad Max? Yes, we do. We do. All right, fly. I'll catch you later. Yo, see you later. Oh, fuck. You're laughing too much, Marty. I think you spooked him a bit. That was Sylvester Stallone. The mystery... The story's done. The news cycle's done. She was low on a teching order. That's why she didn't get any. Plus, she had toilet paper and everyone else was fucking using T-cells and she got crabs. Oh, my nose is bleeding. I'm trying not to laugh. I'm just... Just the effort. It's after jokes as well, because I was holding it up. Well, our most famous celebrity on our podcast, that was Sylvester Stallone, everybody. The real deal. Now I'm conflicted. Do we call the episode, episode 48, Josh Kluger from American Pinball? Did we call it episode 48, the best film in our fucking show? I don't know. I don't know, Josh. Funny. Okay. What else is going on? Speaking of other famous people in pinball, it was Gary Stern birthday this week. Happy birthday, Gary. Gazza. Mad Gaz, how you going? How old did you turn, Marty? I don't know. 70? Probably. I don't know. It was a big deal. Yeah. Cool. There you go. Happy birthday, Gary. Talking about old people in pinball. Oh, don't be like that. Talking about really cool guys in pinball. That's better. Tartucky. Yes. From TNT Amusements. Yeah. Mr. Tartucky. I fucking love his videos. They're awesome. When you want to find information on a pinball machine and you Google it, or jump on YouTube, sometimes there's only one video. Yeah, nine times out of ten, it will be a TNT Amusement Video. Exactly, and he'll give you, like, a ten-minute rundown with the glass off on, like, all these cool features and the story behind it. I'm like, thank you, Todd Tuggy. That's very helpful. Very informative. He's got a book deal going on, Marty. He, well, not just one book, Ryan. Ooh, ten books. Ten. Yep. So... Are they books or magazines? I think they're books. Well, it says, in an unexpected surprise, Todd Tuggy was asked to write a series of 10 books all about pinball, collecting, restoring, and adventures over the years. There's plenty to tell, and this 200-page, all-colour, glossy book will be well worth it for both collectors and casual but interested readers. So, 200 pages times 10, so it's like a 2,000-page, 8-part, 10-part book. Yep, that's pretty crazy. Yeah. So, are they doing a Kickstarter, or it's just available to buy? I think there's a pre-order now. So if you go to pinballbuzz.com, that is www.pinballbuzz.com, and you'll be able to get all the information there. Cool. We'll link it in the show notes. We will. Talking about Kickstarter, let's just do the news app. Marty, I know you're clamoring to try and find a new Kickstarter deal to back, right, after the last debacle. You know, I love sinking my money into Kickstarters that go nowhere. So what's next for me, Ryan? How's that STEM book going? There was an update, so I think they're about to go to print. No, they're not. That wasn't the update, Marty. It was like we hired a designer to do the layout. It's like, what? Didn't you say you were going to deliver two years ago? You just hired the designer now. Oh, my God. I have every confidence I will get my Stern book. Will they have the latest games or will it stop at, like, was it Ghostbusters that just came out then, when the thing came out? I think it probably was that. So maybe that's it. The more the delays, they've got to then add a new page with a new machine, and, oh, who knows. So, what you're referring to is the Atlanta Pinball Museum. That sounds cool. How big is their Kickstarter goal, Marty? Their Kickstarter goal... Their Kickstarter goal... Stop it, stop it, stop it. Stop it, ready? Here we go. Their Kickstarter goal is $250,000 US dollars. Ooh, that doesn't sound too much money. That's actually... How can they raise so far? I would say that's very achievable. Yeah. What kind of things do they sell to achieve that money? What kind of packs and perks can you get? Well, if you, you know, back them for $5, you'll get a sticker. Huh? That's pretty cool. It is cool, but... No, no, no, no, no. For $10, you'll get three stickers. That's a saving of $5. That's a bargain right there. I think of all the Kickstarter, the back of levels you'd go, right there, that's the gold. $15 gets you a T-shirt. $20 is a general admission. $365 is a full year pass. And $1,000 is a lifetime membership. This thing, like just alone, all those things, they're absolutely going to get their gold. And there's 19 days to go. and just $240,000 to go as well. Yeah, they've raised $9,452. The only thing that is interesting about this story and the only reason why I included it was during the interview, I mean, I don't know. I don't know who the guy was kind of like trying to aim his video towards, if it was pinball people, people that knew math, or just the general public. but at one point he said the goal was eventually to have 6,000 pinball machines in the area. And then there was a thread somewhere on Facebook where everyone started to do the math of how much room that would take, how much power, like $200 an hour to power it all, four football fields worth of space, and then obviously the cost of owning 6,000 pinball machines. I know. So here it is, right? here we go again. It's the stuff that now people are being turned off. If he had said, $250,000, what we're going to do, we're going to have this museum, and when you walk in, everything's designed like a pinball machine. And if you have a look at the design, you go, that's kind of cool. And then you look at the map and you think, okay, there's probably 50, maybe 60 machines pictured there. And I think, and I think, Tim, leave it at that. If you had said, we want $250,000, you can have your yearly admission or you can pay $20 for general admission for the day and there's going to be 60, maybe 100 machines, $250,000, people would have said, okay, that sounds like an achievable goal. That's not nuts at all. But when you say 6,000 pinball machines, people just say, dude, you're dreaming. People laugh at Elon Musk, Marty, when he said he wanted to do all that space shit. Did he? Who laughed at him? I was listening to an interview. Oh, gosh. I listen to all pinball podcasts, and I started listening to Harmontown, which is the most effed up podcast series, by the guy who created Rick and Morty. He's got a really twisted mind. Yes. And he was interviewing some guy, a famous director, the guy who's done, like, Forgetting Sarah Marshall, Is That a Ring a Bell? The director who does that, the comedian guy. This is going nowhere. Anyway, he met Elon Musk at a party and laughed at him for saying that he wanted to do this space stuff. So maybe this guy is the next Elon Musk of the pinball world. He could be. Look, I think, like I said, as soon as there was the 6,000 that was mentioned, that's when people went, okay, this is now too ambitious. And the problem with that is when people start saying, right, 6,000 machines, everyone then starts thinking that the guy might be, and I'm not saying that he is, but might be a bit delusional. And that's when people sort of lose faith and trust and any sort of respect for what it could have been, which is a space that could have 60 to 100 machines in Atlanta and with a really cool design. Yeah, people kind of drew comparisons to the Pinball Hall of Fame, which has a couple hundred pinball machines, and they're forever kind of broken, with Tim fixing the machines every minute that he's there, and two other techs. It still can't kind of run properly, so what hope does a guy who doesn't seem like he knows that he didn't need a few more machines? Sure. Well, he might do. Anyway, he sort of just overstated what it was, and I think that's really put people off. Talking about people that overstate... Nice segue. Podcast, Marty. Yes. We listen to them. Yeah. Is it an easy or a hard thing to do on a weekly basis, Marty? Look, I wouldn't say it's easy or hard. It is very time-consuming, and you've got to be absolutely committed to it. Yep. you did it on your holiday I did it I was on my holiday as well, we haven't kind of missed a week since we started, we even did release one on Christmas and Tuesday but yeah, I think it's only us, Slamteel and Eclectic Games Podcast that kind of do it on a schedule either weekly or fortnightly This Week in Pinball had kind of like this awesome podcast but they've called it quits at episode two or one since they call their first episode zero. Yep. So now Zach is without a home. And... Well, I guess that segues into the next bit of news that the Silver Ballers podcast, which is going to be the greatest podcast of all time, is not happening anymore. I like the Facebook page and everything, Marty. I feel like my like was for nothing. You cannot take that kickback. No. I just wanted it. We talked about it. it's not happening. You can't count your chickens before they hash, I guess. But it's going to be back in an even better form. It's called the Super Duper Extra Awesome Pinball Podcast. And what's it going to be about, Marty? Well, I will tell you what the post on their Facebook. So do go to their Facebook page, the Super Duper Extra Awesome Pinball Podcast. Wait, can I repeat something? S-D-E-A-P-P. No. Steep? Steep. So they're going to be announcing the cast and first guests very soon. So stay tuned for all the details on our first show and why, our first show and why, if you're a pinball fan, you can't miss this show. Unique, entertaining, fun pinball content with cuss words. I love cuss words, money. We love cuss words. but without all the tournament dribble, rankings and rehash news. So that's kind of hard not to be a bit offended by that. I think there should be a rule about how you're not allowed to talk about other podcasts. Yeah, you're not allowed to back out other podcasts. Right, yeah, sure. What's rankings? As in you're not allowed to talk about how good someone is at playing pinball? Yeah, probably. Okay, Jordan Trevay is pretty good. I just wanted to chuck that in there. Tournament dribble. Yeah. Trouble. Trouble. Trouble. Rehash News. We have literally made a career out of rehashing the news. How about you, Christopher Franchi? So, he's got a mystery partner, and he's great at it, but, I mean, there is someone without a home, so maybe those two could, I don't know. What do you think, Marty? I think we should like them on Facebook and give them a second chance. What do you think? Yeah, I think we should. because, you know, we do like Chris Frangie and we do like Zach from Straight Down the Middle, so I guess we should like them both. Oh, okay. I didn't know that they'd be joining up together. Anyway. No, I didn't know either. I'm just assuming that that's who it would be. It kind of looks like his silhouette. It does look like his silhouette. Talking about... No, there's no segue to this one. No, this one's a bit serious. there was a fire this week at a popular arcade in Australia. A relatively new one as well. Yeah, so I think it's at the GABBA. I don't know what the GABBA stands for. I just know it as the GABBA. The GABBA, yeah, which is the big sporting facility up in Brisbane. Yeah, so there's an awesome arcade called Pinkadia there and basically there was a kitchen fire and they said they're... And no one kind of knew how serious it was until they said, we don't know when we're going to reopen. We're moving all the pinball machines out, assessing the damage, and we kind of may open at a later date, which is really unfortunate because... Yeah, I had never been there before. They opened up after I went to Brisbane, but I was kind of looking forward to checking it out. Yeah. They had a lot of pinball machines. They had a lot of pinball machines. So what I saw on the Facebook page, as they were removing them to either have them sort of restored or repaired. Is it there? There's a crap load of bloody people machines there. So I don't know the extent of the damage or whether any of the machines were sort of had to be disposed of. It looked like most of them will be salvaged. Yeah, but I mean, they've let all their staff go and all the machines are going. So, I mean, they pretty much have to start from scratch. So, I don't know, it's demoralising to even think about, let alone be involved with it. It's just terrible. The thing that a lot of people don't know, not that I've had any personal experience in this, but when these kinds of things happen, people think, oh, okay, get the repair people in and fix it and you'll be back up in a couple of months. No, it doesn't work that way. it works in that the very first thing you've got to do is you've got to assess the damage you then got to get a proper report you then got to go through the insurance company they then got to do their inspections their reports their recommendations you've then got to get a quote to be able to fix the whole thing repair everything then you've got to try and organize which build is going to come in then they've got to come in and then they've got to repair so this is not a couple of months down this is probably a lot longer than that Have you been involved in like a house fire or something, Marty? I know somebody that's had their shop go up in flames and that's what you've got to do. And also, just so you know, the Gabba, it's from the suburb in which they're in, which is called Woollen Gabba. Oh. There you go. What's the proper name for the stadium? The Brisbane Cricket Ground. Oh, that's boring. I know. The Gabba. Anyway, so we wish the people behind Pinkadia, you know, the easy thing for me to say is nobody got hurt. So, you know what, that's a good thing. You can rebuild and you will come back bigger and better than ever. And it was already a well-supported venue, so you'll get back. I guess a reminder for everyone as well to insure your pinball machines because they are very expensive and make sure it's on your insurance Ryan Policky I guess correct and if you've got 6,000 of them it's a time time to thumbs up 100 100 yeah it is shall we recap on what happened last week sure Me and Josh managed to miraculously get Iron Maiden Sure Which was sitting at number three Miraculously, yep Yep And you're always invited, Marley, to generate your own shit If you want to I think everybody knows what's going on Marley, you got Capcom's Kingpin And I gave you the better gift And you got 20% of the votes Yep, which I think I only got 20% of the votes because of the gift So that is new 18 votes I got to your 70 and let's face it nobody played Kingpin nobody actually seen Kingpin let alone played it Well obviously people that went to Texas Pinball Festival But nobody knows of this machine It's really hard to go against Iron Maiden Which is considered one of Stone's best machines ever made Well I've played Kingpin and I haven't played Iron Maiden So I didn't vote Pinside Petey voted, he voted for you Marty Yeah thank you Pinside Petey He's a great guy Oops, that's not bloke. Okay, shall we head to this week's? Yes, let's do it. Please generate a number from 0 to 100. Coming right up. 90. 90 is... Black Rose. Black Rose. I love me a pirate and more machine learning. I bet you do. Yar. Okay. This better be higher. Please generate a number from 0 to 100. Okay. 79. Oh, why even bother? Joke-a-poker. Okay. What a joke of a pinball machine. Joke-a-poker. Oh. The top 100 of this is solid-state only, so you have to review these solid-state ones. Does it still have chimes? I don't know. Okay. Oh, yeah, so it's a solid state that I'm doing. Right, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about Joker Poker. So, Gottlieb, 1978 game, and this was my favourite era of Gottlieb machines. There's obviously an EM version. This is a solid state, so it doesn't necessarily have the best sound, but it's still very iconic for its age. What I do love about this game is That it tells you what you need to Go for Between, for each of the balls So either the tens, the jacks, the queens The kings or the aces And it's a great layout It's three flippers, so it's got a little upper flipper to the aces Great art I really really enjoy the art of this era as well So if you're going to have a Gottlieb I think you could go no further than Joker Poker Cool All right. Black Rose. So I'm not going to mention who designed this game, but just know that he's a top bloke. And another top bloke that was involved was none other than Brian Eddy, right? Who doesn't love Brian Eddy? It's three for three, but maybe it's three and a half out of three and a half because he had a part in this game. He did the software. He might have dabbled a bit in the geometry, and that's why those other three games are so good. You got the can shot. Who doesn't love that? Probably the most underrated 90s D&D game there is out there, and that's kind of reflective in the price you can pick it up. You'd make an amazing first pinball machine. It's got amazing shots. Shot up the middle, shot down the side, to the left, to the right. Shots everywhere, right? Good bomb value. I give you Black Rose. So you? Yes, I do. How many times have you played it? once. No one has it. We're in Melbourne. We're all fucking elitists here, okay? It's too cheap. It's seriously the cheapest fucking game you can get. Well, it's pretty rare. There's 3,746 of them made. Compared to money? I don't know. About 9,000. 9,280 just off the top of my head, I mean. Okay. So. So, my rebuttal of Black Rose is this. It's a shit theme. Okay. Like, it really is. Pirates is a bad thing. No, not pirates thing, but the theme integration is really not great on it. It's got the worst, and I really mean the worst, video modes in pinball history, and too many of them. Oh Marty You said that you loved Video modes A couple of years ago No What's going on No I'm saying This has got the worst Video modes In pinball history Okay So And John Trudeau Ah We're not going to mention his name Just did He designed this game Yeah So He also designed For him As like Ghostbusters Okay He's a good designer That's why That's why Ghostbusters Got poor votes So So, there you go. Okay, Joker Poker. How much of a fucking boring game do you want, okay? Have you played it? Yeah, I played it. I just destroyed everyone in the tournament, okay? And I still didn't like it because this is the game, okay? Jack Tadman explained the rules to me in like five seconds. He's like, we have to set it to five ball because there's tens, you know, the Jack, the Queen, the Kings, and the Ace. If you set it to three ball, you can't play the game properly, okay? so on the first round you hit like the tens or whatever and then the second ball you hit the other one so you know it's a predetermined thing what you need to do on the on whichever ball you're playing and you keep hitting drop targets all over again just what kind of boring game you just hit drop targets all over and over again with two pop bumpers it's just a boring ass game how many drop targets are there in Black Rose? I don't know I don't care there's a cannon Black Rose is the greatest pirate game that is currently released, okay? Because the other one is the Stern Pirates of the Caribbean. Nobody wants that. Just going to release a classic, okay, really soon, once they get their shit together, okay? So that right now, Black Rose is the greatest pirates game on the market. And you can get it. You can buy it. So that is a real sad state of affairs for pinball-themed machines if Black Rose is considered the best. And to finish it off, Marty, our geometry. Please vote for Black Rose over Joker Boca. It's the only fucking good gut leave out there, but it's still shit. So we'll put that up on Facebook on Wednesday or Tuesday, depending on where you live. And you can vote for who had the best argument or just vote for the gif or whichever machine you like the best because no one listens to what we say. No one gives a shit. Alright What did we get up to this week Marty? So there's been a couple of things that we've done together So we streamed One of the Best games ever made Like when it first came out It was probably a bit cool People didn't sort of really respond all that well to it But now With the code it's got now Is absolutely one of the best machines So let's talk about Avatar What has heard It's not what's heard It is not what's heard I was just in a foul mood on Wednesday I wasn't having the game I was just so bored So just so you know So we streamed Avatar the limited edition So this is the one that's got the Navi ball Which is like the power ball from Twilight Zone But not as well integrated Effectively When the Navi ball appears It's just a story Drew Ewa has heard you I'm going to interrupt you while you talk and just put it away. So here's the deal. The deal is Ryan turned up with a bad attitude. A bad-itude. You had a bad-itude. Oh, no, that's a bad attitude. That's from a dog on the floor. So nothing this machine could have done would have turned you around. There was no way. You came in, your mind was already made up, and then everything that was either normal or good, you'd go, oh, I hate that. Oh, I hate how it does that. It's like, no, it's actually good stuff. You just didn't want to like it. You can say that about anything you like. You can say, oh, you came to the doctor's office with, like, a really shitty attitude and then he told you you got AIDS and you were, like, all shitty about it. Yeah, you need to turn that frown upside fucking down. Okay, I'll give you... I actually had really fun the first time I played Avatar, which is up in Queensland. And the game did last a little bit too long. But then now I kind of understood the rules a bit better. And it almost makes me not like Star Trek. I know it sounds really stupid, but... Really? Star Trek was one of the first games that I played, like getting back into pinball. And I just thought everything about the rules were pretty cool and unique. and then you just kind of learn that all of those games, as I said this on the stream, all of those games are just like borrowing code from each other. Yep. And then I play Big Butt Hunt and I'm like, you know, Big Butt Hunt isn't that bad. I'm like, ah, okay, well this is kind of the same thing. Like, all those games have nothing unique about them. Whenever they get something unique, it then gets passed on to the next like five games that came out and they just become very samey. And the messed up thing is that I still haven't played all the games. I still haven't played Rolling Stones, which is from that era by the same, like, co-guy. I think there's some more games. But the Na'vi Ball is just, you don't earn it. It just comes out. Yeah, I know. It's a bit of a silly rule. But it does have cool call-outs. I do like that. The guy, the Amp City Jackpot guy. Yeah. The AWAS heard you made me laugh my head off until probably, like, the seventh game where I just didn't want to hear it anymore. and yeah, I got to see the wizard mode, Marnie. I got to the freaking wizard mode. So right there, people, that tells you why this game is shit. If I can get to a wizard mode of any machine, then there's a problem. Did that make, like getting there, did that make you want to buy the machine less? No, I really want the machine. You've seen it all? No. You buy it. I really enjoyed doing that. And look, I said on the stream, and I'll say now on the podcast, I owe a massive debt to Mix the Tuna from Buffalo Pinball on their Bro, Do You Even Pinball stream. No, I was going to say, I probably... I know. Bro, Do You Even... Because I've got three different names. So, because I remember when he had Avatar Limited Edition, he streamed it for a couple of weeks, and he went through every single rule. So, I knew every single rule on that machine. Yeah, you're teaching me stuff. I know. No. So, look, I do like it. I understand completely its shortcomings. Totally get it. And I now sort of really understand, because I hadn't played Avatar for a while, and certainly not for three hours straight. And, you know, I've always had that comparison. Well, you know, it came out at the same time as Iron Man, and it's got a similar framework. It's the same. That's the biggest bullshit thing now. It's not the same at all. I now totally get the difference between the two. And the main difference is, really, is that Iron Man has a hell of a lot more flow than Avatar. That's the only difference, is it, Marty? Well, it's actually got a tighter rule set. It's got a probably more defined rule set as well. How about this? You get the top rollovers, and then you can extra shot. But when you're in multi, the ball never exits the pops. That's a similarity it has between The Walking Dead. The Walking Dead has the same thing, but it'll just kind of stay up there. No, that was just this Avatar. I've played a lot of avatars and they don't normally stay up on the pops that long. I've played three avatars and they all do the same thing. I've played it, so... Well, I mean, are there other ones you played on site with, like, really weak pop bumpers that have been rebuilt? Yeah, that's probably what it is. Because this was a very good condition machine, so everything was very strong. Yeah. I think I played more Stingray. There was a Stingray there in the background and everyone was like, what's that game that's in the background? It's Ryan playing Sing Ray. Don't worry, play it right. So, speaking of rehash rules, we're now just going to move on to last night's stream where we streamed Batman 66. Did we stream it or did you stream it with an hour-long game? I did have an hour-long game. I was an hour late to the stream and you were still playing your first game. Yeah, and I managed to get a 7.6 billion score. Was it fun, Marty? Was it fun? Do you have fun playing this game? That's what I want to know. Do you have fun? F-U-N Does it get your, like, your adrenaline running? It's the opposite of adrenaline rush. It's like... It's the jazz music. That's what it is. It's jazz... People that really like Batman 66, and I'm pretty sure you're not really one of them that is obsessed with Batman 66 like all these owners are. I don't know. I don't know if I can play a pinball that has Jasmine. You're playing Dream multiball. Yay. Doesn't seem very exciting. Yeah, I know what you mean. Let's face it, it looks fantastic. The rules have definitely come leaps and bounds from what they were. I really like what it's doing with minor villains. It's a good game It's a good game But the only thing I just I found The shots Probably just a little bit Unconventional for what I'm used to Does that make sense? Yes The left ramp for example Is way over on the left It's not in a place that you're normally Shooting around That's fine. You can say that with any pinball machine. Sure. Watch when you play Houdini. You'll be like, nothing's where it's meant to be. Yeah. So the bit that I'm perplexed about is that all these really good tournament players have nothing but good things to say about the pinball machine. But I don't know what it is. They say, yeah, it's great. It's like compared to before. It's amazing. But is it just because the rules were so bare bones to deal with? Like, it was just the worst game ever, and now it's pretty good. And it's Lyman Sheets, so everyone, you know, in Lyman we trust and all that kind of stuff that Josh said. But I guess I don't understand the finer details of the rules, besides you start a villain and then you just keep on going. Like, do you want to collect or do you want to keep on going? Obviously keep on going, because the second part is worth more. And even if you lose your ball, you don't lose the moat. It just keeps on going, right? So I don't understand the risk-rewards. I guess it's more about strategy with the minor villains and who you want to bring in with what season and what villain. That still doesn't... I don't know. I don't see the billions there yet that other people have. And we had two perfect opportunities for Keith Alwyn and Josh Sharpe to explain to us why the game is so good, like they've done in the past to games like Metallica and Walking Dead. I was like, oh, yeah, I guess that is a really cool rule. No one's said anything yet that's made me say, oh, yeah, that's amazing. No, I know. And I think it's because there still probably is more stuff to come into it as well. But what you can see is what he's trying to do. And I can get that. But, you know, when I played this game literally for an hour and got a 7.6 billion grams, that's enough of a game to start seeing probably the repetitive nature of it. Yeah. So that was, I think I was almost up to my third villain escape. I think I was probably one minor villain away from Batsui Multiple or whatever it is. Batusi? Yeah. You made the same mistake I made, like, 20 weeks ago. So, that's Batman 66. Still a mystery. Still worth... Like, no one's... Hardly anyone's selling it. It's a great machine. I will tell you now, I think it is a great machine. It's one of those ones that I think you have to have in your home to appreciate, because you can't go inside and play it and kind of... Well, I definitely can't. Like Creature from the Black Lagoon. Like, I was like one game away from understanding that pinball machine. It was just like this whole mystery. Like, I just don't understand how this works and that works and how people get that super ramp thing. And then I'll play the first game at my house. I'm like, ah, okay. I know like all the... I know everything now. Yeah. I was just one game away from understanding it. Anyway. Ross Town. We talked about the Ross Town Retro Arcade thing where I got that horrible score on Fathom. The results finally went up, and the top 12 get in. I came 13th. So thank you, Fathom, for knocking me out. I pretty much came third last on Fathom I would have got in. Marty, you came further down the list, right? But you hadn't played your 10th grade 37. No. So I think we mentioned before that somebody had actually put their score on my centigrade 37 sheet. So we sort of mentioned before that I hadn't played centigrade 37, so we thought maybe it was blank and I just missed it. But no, somebody had actually put their score in there accidentally on my sheet. So I got the invitation to go back and put up a score. Did you do that, Marty? I did. Okay. Well, guess what? You didn't need to, because even if you came last, you still would have got in. So you went there, did you just plunge the ball away? I needed to get any score. Why did you go? Just say, plunge my ball. No, because if I didn't have a score at all, I wouldn't have had even the lowest points for that, and I wouldn't have qualified. So you had to drive all the way there just to plunge a ball? Yep. Fuck me. I already said I'll take 20 and I'm done. I can't drive all the way there during peak hour traffic. It's tons of people. No, I did and I didn't get a very good score and I just went, okay, thanks. I'm done. I've got to go streaming. But now I'm four things, I guess. I would say that's probably the case. Okay, so I need two people to drop out to me to make it possible. It's possible. Come on, guys. It's a horrible collection. Don't do it. What did you get up to this week, Marty, in you buying stuff without me? Well, there's really only one semi-pinball-related thing, and that is, so, and she has mentioned it on her show, but Mrs. Pin, we talk to her, would you say every day? Close to. Close to every day. And Dr. Pin. We just chat by messenger almost every day. And, you know, she's been on her show talking about how she would love to have the Goonies made into a pinball theme. And I've always said no. So I decided to watch the Goonies. Yay, finally. I've finally seen the Goonies. Okay, so under the eyes of a non-kid who doesn't have any nostalgia factor what did you think of it, Marty? I, and this is what I said at the time I wished, I wish now that I had seen it when it came out so I could actually have the nostalgia because it's a very dated film it really has not aged all that well so I wished I had watched it at the time when I could appreciate it for being what it was and enjoying those memories and those emotions that I would have had watching it back when it came out. Do you know how you have those emotions, Marty? Is you watch it with a kid and you just happen to have, like, four kids, right? Sure, okay. Well, maybe I could do that. It's a good film. The main problem I had is that these kids do not shut the fuck up. Are you talking about the fat kid or the Asian kid? No. Let's bring out all the minorities here. Yeah. Probably But all of them But yeah, what was his name? Chunk? Chunk? I actually haven't watched him in a while Yeah The Truffle Shuffle guy Yeah, Truffle Shuffle Kid It's like, you know If you are trapped in a house Where you know that there's bad people there Why are you yelling at the top of your voice? When you know that they're dangerous They've always shown you that they've got a gun Why are you screaming? What was the point of this? Because you're a dumb kid. You're a fucking kid. Oh, that really frustrated me. Okay. Okay, but the big question is, do I think it would make a good pinball thing? The answer is yes. I don't even care what you have. The answer is as much as the Flintstones would. Ah, you bastards. You fucking lined it up. How about, hey, you guys, multiball? Hey, you guys, multiball. Truffle shuffle. Switch frenzy. Yeah. Look, I actually, do you know what? The first half of the movie just, just irritated the crap out of me. But then as they sort of really got more into it and they had to be even more stealth-like, I actually really enjoyed it. And yeah, I thought it was a great film. Yeah, I mean, we talked about it a couple of weeks ago. I think there's already a slot machine for it. Yeah. When there's a slot machine, there's a pinball waiting to happen, right? Yeah, it's just the next step. Yeah. So let's see. Someone's probably ready to get the license. Yeah. And so can I also just say just another thing in my week? And so the latest episode of Mrs. Pinball Podcast came out today. And what was really funny is that I'm loving, like she is totally hooked on pinball now, right? What the hell? I don't get that. I thought it was just like just the whole supporting husband thing was still going on. But yeah. She's so into it. And what I love is it made me laugh so loud. when I was driving listening to this podcast today, where she's talking about the fact that she's now so into it because her husband went away to some festival and there was a pinball tent there. She was like, right, I'm going to buy a shed at the back of my house and I'm going to fill it up with pinball machines and I'm going to get someone to put the electricity on and then I'm going to get a mini fridge for cheese. Yes. So, like, you know... Cheese and pinball Just like Yeah Mini fridge Fill it with beer With booze And then she's like Mini fridge For cheese Alright So this is our question to Mrs. Pin What kind of cheese Do you Do you dabble in What kind You know Yes What's your favourite cheese Okay Yeah Did you listen to the Entire podcast With all the I did All the interviews? They were so good. Wow. Yeah. My bar was, you know, a little bit low with the first one, and then the other four was just like, holy crap, stop. All these talented people coming from. What's it like at Atsu this week? Did you watch The Incredibles 2, Marty? No. Will you be watching it? I did enjoy the first Incredibles, I must admit. Okay. I watched it with my kids. And this is not a spoiler or anything, but Andrew Highway is a fucking genius because there's a hydrofoil that stars in the movie. So, yeah, just wanted to mention that there. And they also use the phrase gold standard, which I thought was hilarious as well. So they must be... He's onto something. He knows. Yeah, they must be fans of the podcast. I bought a Nugget Gophers this week, but kind of only temporarily because I don't like that game. I bought a game I don't like. It's going to be here for two weeks, and then it's going up to my friends. I bought a second machine, Marty. I found a, or stumbled across a medial, and I literally just jumped back in my car, checked my phone before I went to drive, and saw this medial, and I was like, holy shit, I've got to call this guy, like, right now. It was like $1,500 Australian. It's cheap. rang him up, did the deal over the phone. I said, remove the listing now. He removed the listing, said, send me your bank details, and we'll take it from there. I don't, this sounds like it's not going to have a happy ending. I can just sense it now. Keep going. Well, okay, this is the same thing that happened to my stars, and, well, Adam's family was even worse. Like, he paid for that pinball machine, and then he refunded me. I just, I didn't want to push it. There's some old guys where you can't just fucking, like, you can't keep on messaging him saying, like, give me your fucking bank details so I can, like, this deal can be done. I already rang someone in Queensland who's going to pick up the pinball machine in a couple of days once all the money clears, and he just never messaged me. And then later on that night, he's like, I'm really sorry. And this guy was super genuine on the phone, right? He's like, I'm really sorry. I informed my son. You know, this is our family pinball machine when he was growing up kind of thing. I informed my son I was selling a pinball machine, and he got really upset, and I'm going to just give him the pinball machine. and that got me really upset. I was like, oh, I've already made space for it, and this, this, and that. And, yeah, I was like, how do I convince him to sell it? You know, I offered him more. I'm like, would you take $1,000 this much? And he's like, I'll ask my son. He's like, no, he wants to keep it. I'm like, can you give me your son's phone number? He's like, I'll pass on your number, and when he goes to sell it, he'll call you first, which usually would never fucking happen. so I didn't buy a second pinball machine this week so instead of having Meteor which is apparently an awesome pinball machine I'm stuck with Nova Gophers which is sitting in my garage I haven't even bought it yet it might just stay there with the head box down. It's the sound in that game. It's just I don't you talk about the Goonies guy like not shutting the fuck up it's those little gopher dudes just not shutting up and what they say is piercing to my soul. I know So it's not a great machine. The guy, Dave, he did rebuild the flippers on it recently, and it does feel amazing. It's so weird how you can get a really shitty impression of a pinball machine that has shitty flippers, and you think, oh, this game kind of sucks. And he's played a good one, and it's fine. I've been trying to get to Enterprise and Mock Marty. Yes, I know. Yeah, it's really weird because I haven't done this in a while. This is how I used to play Pinball Machines, Marty. I used to set a goal and just play Pinball Machine non-stop until I got sick of it. Just, you know, wizard mode hunting, whatever you want to call it. And I never used to play for score, just for the goals. And I kind of fell in love with Star Trek again. Not that I kind of fell out of love, but I was like, man, this game is fucking amazing. And then if you just play Star Trek for like an hour a day, every day for a whole week, you end up hating the mission. The good thing is, I changed my strategy. Instead of doing all the level one missions and then getting to Kofi Ashimuru and then starting level two, I just, I played level one, level two of every mission as I went along. Okay. And I was, twice I've been up to the very last mission, like, you know, Nero 2, and that would have got me into Enterprise and Mark, and just, just crumbled under the non-existent pressure. No one's watching, nothing. Just nine shots to finish the mode, any shot, and it just doesn't work out for me. So you still have a chance, Miley, to catch up if you want to stream it this week. I probably will this Sunday because we are streaming something very special this week, as we mentioned with Houdini. So we're looking forward to that. But, yeah, and also I think we mentioned this, there's somebody on Pinside who's also on Aussie Arcade called Extendo, and he's done a... What is it? The ROMs with the custom soundtrack, is that right? Yeah, the movie, the motion picture soundtrack, like, for the modes. So I figured if I'm going to update my machine, I might as well start with that. If I don't like it, then I'll just go to the normal code. You'll last about an hour. Okay. The things I noticed in the new update, because I did update the machine, I feel like Kobayashi Maru sounds different when you're getting the medals, which was like one of my favorite parts. But I was talking to you and I was kind of describing it. You said, that sounds similar. So I want you to tell me if that sounds different, Marty. Because I haven't been to Kobayashi Maru in like two months because I've made my machine so freaking difficult. Right. One thing I noticed, which I don't think is on the new code. Marty, do you know about the super skill shot in Star Trek? Well, there's two. What's that? Well, I know if you hold in the left flipper, the ball goes all the way around the orbit, and then you've got to pick a shot. If you hold the right flipper, it closes the gate so the ball comes around, and you've got to hit the warp shot. If you hold the right flipper? If you hold the right flipper down, the gate stays shut, so what it actually does is the ball... And it bounces off it, does it? It bounces off, it comes around to the upper right flipper. Okay. I've just been short plunging when I go to the warp shot. Well, you can short plunge as well. But you've got to hold the right flipper. Does it give you more points if you hold the right flipper? That I don't know. I think you only get half a million if you just short plunge. Yeah. Anyway, this is something I realized. I mean, if you drain the ball during the ball save period, and then you hold down the left flipper and it goes all the way around, the super skill shot is still available, which is total bullshit because there's no skill involved in having a second chance, right? That's a broken Pimple rule So I demand You're amazing And just That What other game has that? Nothing If you lose Your ball The skill shot is gone Because you have no skill Right The skill shot's worth Fuck all anyway right? Like it's worth Actually worth fuck all It's fuck all But it just Look at you It so ruins this whole game Give me a lesson Please I demand It's just It's a broken There's a rule Steven Bowden I know you have lots of Pimple pages With lots of cool stuff there needs to be I know you might be against this because you like creativity and all that junk there needs to be certain rules like the whole not flashing the shoot again thing during the light show or not flashing lights in your eyes because it's a trap all that kind of stuff there needs to be a pinball like 10 commandments or is it 12 commandments? 10? something like that another thing that I never knew and this isn't a bug or anything you know how when you're doing Space Jump, right? And you get the away mission for it. So which one's Space Jump? Is that the yellow one? Yeah, the yellow one. Yep. And you switch the mode with it, yeah? So what it does is it gives you a silver medal automatically. Yes. But if you... This is the weird thing. If you have a bronze medal or less, you don't get the bronze medal. So when you get into Kobayashi Maru, say you've got gold on every single one and silver in that one, you'll have an incomplete set of bronze, even though you've got silver in that mission. So it won't give you a bronze and a silver, it'll just give you a silver. It's always been like this. It's been like this. Yeah. I knew that. But I realised that if you have a silver medal, before you shoot that shot, it'll actually give you a gold medal and give you that missing bronze medal as well. Yeah, because effectively what it's trying to do is get you the next level up. So what you're really trying to do is you start that mission, get enough jackpots until you then, or shots until you hit silver medal, then hit the away mission, and then go under there for your gold. It's the only way to get gold. No, you can still get gold normally. Well, not with one shot. No, well, but that's the thing. If you've got a silver medal, and then you have to shoot at the middle, you're only saving yourself two shots. That's right. You're shooting that shot under the flipper, so you only save yourself one shot. Right. It's so not worth it. And I think if you have a bronze medal before you hit that shot, you should get a bronze and a silver, surely. It flashes up on the screen and says bronze medal, but then if you make the shot, it takes it away from you. Okay. It doesn't make any sense. I think that's a bit of a scoring bug, yeah. I'm just putting as much kind of information here so that we might get another update. Now I think I can tell Star Trek I actually want an update. The last one is, what the hell is going on in Destroy the Drill 2? If you stream it this week, Marty, I want you to play Destroy the Drill 1 and then Destroy the Drill 2. just trap up and look at the way the lights are moving. It doesn't make... I don't get what the pattern is. The pattern is that there is no pattern. Once you get down to one shot, it strobes between the two different shots, literally, like, once every second. So there's no way you can time the ball. You just have to just hit the shot and pray that it's lit when you hit the shot. It doesn't make sense. Broken, we need a completely new update. come on guys Vault Edition you're going to sell millions as long as you fix that SuperSkipper shop well you know what I will do that I will actually stream on Sunday night that's for AIM at this stage and I will see if I can beat you to Enterprise Amok yep I'll be crumbling under pressure while Melton's watching me do we have any yeah we do mailbag yes we got a email from Scott Larson he says Yoda equals Cookie Monster. Listen to the contest submissions again and imagine them imitating Cookie Monster. You will never see Yoda the same way. And they ask you when you're heading back to Utah. You're never going back to Utah, are you? That was a business. No, that is actually not true. So I may be going back again January next year, which may happen to coincide with Indisc again. So I may do. He's planning your whole business trip around Indisc again. Free them all trips. there was an email last week that we forgot to talk about where someone bought a new pinball machine and he said what was sorry I don't even have the email in front of me but he said what was the routine you go through when you get a new pinball machine and it changes all the time sometimes I just want to play the game and I don't want to

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: f152d440-81d8-481e-89c1-1a64f7dbdb00*