# Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 68 - Tom is DONE with LEs!

**Source:** Triple Drain Pinball Podcast  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2025-10-10  
**Duration:** 76m 59s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://zencastr.com/z/pbE8ejRW

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## Analysis

Triple Drain hosts discuss their disappointment with Star Wars pinball's Limited Edition tier, with Tom Graff (a longtime elite LE buyer and tournament player) arguing that the LE offers no compelling features over the Pro model. The conversation explores the game's design philosophy, ball save mechanics, accessibility for casual players, and questions whether modern Stern games are designed with tournament players in mind.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] The Star Wars LE has no features that justify the premium price over the Pro model — _Tom Graff's direct statement: 'I don't think there's anything that grabs you into buying the LE compared to the Pro. I mean, I don't see one feature that's like, hey, that's awesome.'_
- [MEDIUM] Star Wars Pro's center ramp performs better (smoother, more consistent) than the LE version — _Tom: 'I find when I'm playing the le version it drops off the ramp more' and 'the pro ramp seems to work better than the le now maybe it's a level thing'_
- [HIGH] The Magna-save mechanic on Premium/LE is unreliable and requires precise timing; Pro's guaranteed ball save is superior for competitive play — _Travis claims 1-for-3 success rate on magnet saves; Tom would be upset if tournament outcome depended on timing luck vs guaranteed mechanic_
- [HIGH] Star Wars has eight major shots, making it tighter and faster than ACDC (five major shots), contributing to its difficulty — _Joel: 'There's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight shots, right? Like eight major shots out there. And you take something like ACDC. There's only five major shots out there.'_
- [HIGH] The Force save mechanic is not approachable for casual/location players; requires knowledge and practice — _Discussion on accessibility: casual players won't discover the feature without tutorials; high learning curve for timing_
- [MEDIUM] Medieval Madness Wizard Edition lost appeal after novelty wore off; lacks depth compared to Cactus Canyon — _Joel: 'once you destroy the character the castle once the 10th time, the 15th time, the novelty times to wear out' and 'I don't think I'm going to buy one anymore'_
- [HIGH] Ray Day (code designer) and Andrew (local Chicago software hire) tag-teamed Star Wars code, delivering nearly all 30+ planned modes at launch — _Joel: 'Ray gives a lot of credit to a guy named Andrew. Apparently, Andrew is a local guy in Chicago who got hired after Tim left. Andrew and him have kind of tag team this together.'_
- [MEDIUM] Modern Stern games are not designed with elite tournament players in mind; only Keith Elwin represents elite tournament player designers in current industry — _Tom: 'These games have to be designed in order to be manufactured at scale' and 'How many elite-level tournament players are designing games? Like, right now, in the industry, right now... Besides Elwin, is that it?'_

### Notable Quotes

> "I don't think there's anything that grabs you into buying the LE compared to the Pro. I mean, I don't see one feature that's like, hey, that's awesome. I got to grab that."
> — **Tom Graff**, early discussion
> _Tom's core argument against LE tier value; contradicts his decade-long LE buying history_

> "You're 100% success rate. So basically what's cool about Star Wars is there's spinners on both orbits, and when you rip the spinner, you're spelling Jedi."
> — **Joel**, mid-discussion
> _Explains Pro's guaranteed ball save mechanic contrasting with LE's timing-dependent magnet save_

> "I would definitely say it is a feature that you have to see somebody do, and it's, yeah, it's not a gimme. It's not like it's lit by default when you first plunge."
> — **Joel**, accessibility discussion
> _Acknowledges Force save is not accessible/approachable for casual players_

> "My wife played Star Wars for four minutes and she was done. And it was just, in her mind, it was a whole lot going on. And she's like, I just kept draining."
> — **Joel**, casual player accessibility
> _Demonstrates Star Wars' tight playfield and difficulty alienates non-hardcore players, unlike Medieval Madness_

> "These games have what I say. Yeah. And it's like I hear this like all the time. Like, let's just get this straight out, guys. Like, seriously, these games have to be designed in order to be manufactured at scale."
> — **Tom Graff**, design philosophy discussion
> _Challenges misconception that Stern designs for tournament players; prioritizes manufacturability_

> "How many elite-level tournament players are designing games? Like, right now, in the industry, right now. Can we start naming them off so we can just put this to bed? It's like, besides Elwin, is that it?"
> — **Tom Graff**, tournament design discussion
> _Identifies scarcity of elite competitive players in designer roles; only Keith Elwin named_

> "That's why everybody loves Godzilla, because it's the mech that's right up the middle people can hit. That's why people love Attack from Mars. Exactly. It's fairly intuitive that somebody within maybe two to three games could figure out."
> — **Joel**, accessibility comparison
> _Contrast between approachable game design (Godzilla, AFM) and Star Wars' complexity_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Tom Graff | person | Elite tournament player, top-100 ranked, state championship winner, world championship participant, Triple Drain co-host; known for streaming tournaments (e.g., Slaps); longtime LE buyer since Avatar (~2012); now critical of current LE offerings |
| Joel | person | Triple Drain co-host; owns Star Wars LE; generally positive perspective; interested in game accessibility and casual player experience |
| Travis | person | Triple Drain co-host; Slaps tournament participant; has played Star Wars ~4-8 games total; 1-for-3 success on Force magnet saves |
| Star Wars: Fall of the Empire | game | Stern Pinball's major 2025 release; available in Pro/Premium/LE tiers; features eight major shots, tight playfield, Force save mechanic on Premium/LE; criticized for lack of LE differentiation, tight shots, non-approachable design |
| Spike 3 | product | Stern's third-generation hardware platform; powers Star Wars; features larger LCD, expression lighting (exclusive to LE/Premium); discussed but hosts unable to attend media day |
| Ray Day | person | Stern Pinball code designer on Star Wars; credited with delivering ~30 modes at launch; collaborated with Andrew (local Chicago hire) on code |
| John Borg | person | Stern Pinball designer; designed Star Wars mechanical layout; question raised about whether he prioritizes tournament player experience |
| Brian Eddy | person | Stern designer; mentioned in context of whether designers prioritize tournament players |
| Keith Elwin | person | Legendary designer and elite tournament player; named as only current elite-level tournament player actively designing pinball machines |
| Medieval Madness (Wizard Edition) | game | Recent remake; praised for accessibility and approachability; Joel owned briefly, found lack of depth after novelty wore off; contrasted with Star Wars' complexity |
| Cactus Canyon | game | Mentioned as comparison to Medieval Madness; Joel prefers it for depth; Trolls mode criticized as difficult to access for casual players |
| Godzilla | game | Referenced as example of accessible design; central mech (Oxygen Destroyer) intuitive for new players |
| Attack from Mars | game | Referenced as accessible pinball design; players can understand major shots within 2-3 games |
| ACDC | game | Used as comparison point for shot count; five major shots vs Star Wars' eight |
| Deadpool | game | Mentioned as example where LE exclusive feature (Katana ramp) adds significant appeal; Joel owned Premium, would miss mech on Pro |
| John Wick | game | Previous Stern release; referenced as point where Tom shifted from elitist collector to considering Pro models; positive code update trajectory (~0.98 version) |
| Triple Drain Pinball Podcast | organization | Podcast featuring Joel, Travis, and Tom; recorded Friday before Pinball Expo; missed Star Wars media day due to Wednesday scheduling conflict |
| Slaps | event | Tournament where Tom and Travis competed; both participated successfully |
| Pinball Expo | event | Major pinball gathering; Triple Drain hosts plan to attend and view all three Star Wars models in person |
| Andrew | person | Local Chicago software engineer hired after Tim left; co-coded Star Wars with Ray Day; helped deliver extensive mode content |
| Jared | person | Streamed Star Wars with Joel; achieved 1 successful Force save in ~2 hours of play at launch |
| Eric Meunier | person | Mentioned as skilled tournament player; discussed in context of designer expertise |
| Mark Seiden | person | Tournament player; mentioned in context of designer expertise in competitive pinball |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Star Wars LE value proposition and tier differentiation, Magna-save mechanic design and competitive fairness, Game accessibility and casual player approachability, Tournament player influence on pinball design
- **Secondary:** Stern's three-tier pricing model sustainability, Star Wars playfield design and shot tightness, Ray Day's code implementation and feature depth, Comparison of Medieval Madness vs Cactus Canyon design philosophy

### Sentiment

**Negative** (-0.65) — Tom expresses disappointment with Star Wars LE; Joel acknowledges design accessibility issues; Travis supports competitive concerns. However, praise for Ray Day's code work and acknowledgment of game's tournament potential provides some balance. Overall tone is critical but constructive.

### Signals

- **[sentiment_shift]** Shift in elite collector perspective: Tom moving from mandatory LE buyer to Pro-only approach signals broader market skepticism about LE tier value (confidence: high) — Tom has bought LEs since Avatar (~2012); now has Star Wars Pro in basement but won't upgrade despite LE available. Joel noting 'Tom was our elitist' but something changed.
- **[competitive_signal]** Star Wars anticipated to be strong tournament game due to tight playfield and speed; layout will naturally keep ball times short without additional difficulty scaling (confidence: medium) — Joel: 'I think this is going to be a fantastic tournament game... the speed of this game, I don't think tournament guys will have to do much to make this game brutal or to keep the ball times short. That's what I mean by that. I think the layout itself will keep the ball times short.'
- **[design_philosophy]** Force save mechanic on Premium/LE criticized as unreliable, timing-dependent, and unfair for competitive play; Pro's guaranteed ball save superior for tournament context (confidence: high) — Tom would be 'livid' if tournament outcome depended on magnet timing luck. Travis: 1-for-3 success rate. Jared: 1 save in 2 hours of launch play.
- **[design_philosophy]** Star Wars playfield too tight (8 major shots) and chaotic; lacks stop-and-go flow; fast-paced design alienates casual players; Sarlacc pit only true stop (confidence: high) — Joel's wife quit after 4 minutes: 'I just kept draining.' Joel: 'don't have much stop and go, right? The only true stop to this game is a Sarlacc pit.' Comparison: ACDC has 5 major shots.
- **[design_philosophy]** Modern Stern games not designed with elite tournament players in mind; manufacturability and scale prioritized; only Keith Elwin represents elite tournament designer in industry (confidence: high) — Tom: 'these games have to be designed in order to be manufactured at scale. That's what a lot of people are forgetting.' Question: 'How many elite-level tournament players are designing games? Besides Elwin, is that it?'
- **[gameplay_signal]** Force save mechanic is not discoverable or approachable for casual/location players; requires video tutorials and extended practice; design fails accessibility test (confidence: high) — Joel: 'There's going to be zero chance' casual players discover it without external content. 'you have to see somebody do it' to understand. Contrasted with Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars as truly approachable designs.
- **[personnel_signal]** Andrew, local Chicago software engineer, hired by Stern (after Tim's departure) to co-code Star Wars with Ray Day; doubled code development capacity (confidence: medium) — Joel: 'Andrew is a local guy in Chicago who got hired after Tim left. Andrew and him have kind of tag team this together. And so you almost got double the amount of people working on on Star Wars.'
- **[market_signal]** Tom Graff, elite LE buyer for 12+ years (since Avatar), now rejects Star Wars LE as poor value with no differentiating features over Pro (confidence: high) — Tom: 'I don't think there's anything that grabs you into buying the LE compared to the Pro. I mean, I don't see one feature that's like, hey, that's awesome.' This represents fundamental shift in longtime LE collector sentiment.
- **[product_strategy]** Medieval Madness Wizard Edition's accessibility and approachability made it initially appealing, but lack of mechanical depth and code complexity caused novelty to wear off for serious players (confidence: medium) — Joel: 'I don't think I'm going to buy one anymore and I was on the list to buy one and after having it a week or whatever... to me I want I want more out of pinball.' Wife preferred it over Cactus Canyon, but Joel found Trolls mode too difficult to access.
- **[product_concern]** Star Wars Pro center ramp reportedly performs better (smoother, fewer drops) than LE version; potential manufacturing or setup quality issue (confidence: medium) — Tom: 'when I'm playing the le version it drops off the ramp more' and 'the pro ramp seems to work better than the le now maybe it's a level thing or something.'
- **[product_concern]** Ray Day and Andrew delivered ~30 character modes (8 characters × 3 modes each, plus 6 Vader modes, 4 Jabba modes) at Star Wars launch; significant code depth and polish (confidence: high) — Joel: 'The code is already at a level that there's, okay, so there's eight major shots. Each shot represents a character. Each character is going to have three modes attached to it. Let's do some math. 24 modes. Then there's Vader modes. I think there's like six Vader modes. Jabba modes, there's like four.'

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## Transcript

 we we're three guys who like to talk and ball so we came up with the club our name we're joel and travis got moved up and ball and we call ourselves triple training triple train triple train we're triple triple train all right uh travis you want to repeat all all all of what you no i i'm good yeah yeah we travis was telling us all about his day he's got a big day ahead of him big day ahead of him he's got to go to the man doctor the man doctor the man doc we got the man doc in an hour and 20 minutes so uh we it's going to be a short one for us um what do we do we always apologize sorry it's been over a month you know there's no we just sorry about that uh Uh, yeah, it's life is busy. That's what we say every time. But, um, I believe it or not, manufacturers don't release games based on our schedule. And I don't know why they don't do that yet. It's, it's, but we were on, I saw it. We were on the media list for star war to film content there. And I don't think any of us were there, but we were on there. Like hopefully our time went well. I don't know what they did during those 15 minutes, but I don't know either. We, um, unfortunately we were invited. Triple drain was invited to the media day. the Star Wars Media Day. We did not go because it was on a Wednesday, and that's hard. Fridays, we could do. Fridays, we can do. Wednesdays, very hard with work and life and all the things. But hey, we're here now. We are recording the Friday before Pinball Expo. So we got a lot to cover. We don't have a ton of time to do it. But let's start with the important stuff. Tom, how are you? depressed what that was not what I was expecting at all so two things why let's talk about it Tom let me have a drink are you drinking a mule already that's a virgin oh okay he's already drinking at 830 in the morning no No, I'm fine. Okay, good. And we really, how is your microwave? Did the microwave get installed? Is it solved? How is the microwave? It's installed, yes. It's working fine. I had to take back the covering because it didn't fit the space. But other than that, it's fine. I'm happy. Oh, man, I'm so happy for you. I know. I do know you've had a busy last few weeks. Slaps, there was a tournament that, Tom, you streamed and participated in. Same with you, Travis. You were there. You guys were both very successful. Travis really had to be there. Yeah, it was kind of his thing. So we will talk more about Slaps later. But let's talk about Star Wars. Let's talk about Star Wars. That's the big game. Stern's big game that's out. There's Star Wars and there's Spike 3. So where do you guys want to start? You want to focus more on Spike 3 or Star Wars? Tom, I'm going to let you take the lead, and I want you to share your thoughts on either of those topics. Star Wars. Let's do it. Ellie, not good. Okay. Good take, Tom. This is okay. Tom was. We got spicy Tom tonight. This is awesome. Tom was our elitist. He was that guy. He was the, I don't want to back glass unless I can see myself in it. That was Tom Graff. But something changed. Something changed. And I don't know what, I don't remember which game it was. I'm not saying it was King Kong, but I know King Kong, you're like, I'm going to go pro. I'm going to go pro. I think it started with Wick. John Wick? Okay. All right. It might have been Wick or X-Men around that time. I remember Wick. Wick was out before that. Yeah, it was definitely. And I remember we did the media day with WIC. When we were at media day, yeah, Tom was getting that itch. We could tell. He was like this, but yeah. But you didn't. You showed restraint, and you got the Pro, and you still have your WIC Pro, right? I do. Okay, so just a quick sidestep. WIC Pro, you enjoying it? You enjoying the code updates? Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely an improvement. Okay. Because it's pretty close to finished, right? It's like .97 or .8. I think it's .98. Yeah, okay. Not a ton left. All right, so our elitist is no longer an elitist. He is more – you're going to buy a Star Wars Pro, right? I have one in my basement currently. Oh, okay. I haven't played it a lot, but I have it. But there's an LE right now at Lumberjack Johnny's. Yep, and I got an LE right behind me here. This is Zax from Flip N Out Pinball. And Travis, what game do you have behind you? I don't see. I have a stool behind me. I don't see any pinball machines. Are you allowed to be a podcaster without a pinball machine? I mean, I've got trophies. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, where's your top four at a major trophy? My awards, my achievements. Joel, where is it? I see it right back there. Tom, why does the Star Wars LE suck? I mean, you just started strong. You started with a bold statement. Why does the LE suck? I don't think there's anything that grabs you into buying the LE compared to the Pro. I mean, I don't see one feature that's like, hey, that's awesome. I got to grab that. The Jabba with the ball doesn't grab you? The Jabba with the ball, the mechanism that drops the, what is it? We talked about this last. No, the AT-AT or the AT-AT. Oh, the model. whatever you want to call it yep it's uh you know the darth vader head does that not convince you no neither does the stormtrooper head dang it so there's nothing on the play field what about the center ramp that goes up and down does nothing for me so literally literally nothing on the play field i think from what i've shot the pro ramp seems to work better than the le now maybe it's a level thing or something to that extent but i've noticed what do you mean by work better like it it's smoother it doesn't rattle yeah like the like the shot into the center in the back like i i find i find when i'm playing the le version it drops off the ramp more and like i said it could be just how the location has it set up and it it's dropping like your shots aren't aren't making it kind of thing okay but um yeah so i i what about art i i respect your opinion Tom. Yeah, we got to find something about the Ellie that Tom likes. Artwork. What about that? I really don't like the Ellie artwork. Okay. And I'm like a big... An autograph from the CEO. No. Damn it. Okay. An autograph from John Borg on the apron. What's the art? I'm looking at it right now. You just don't like that it's so Hoth-focused? Yeah. And I mean, I'm a huge Star Wars fan, but like, right now I'm looking at the premium going like, man, the premium looks better to me. Okay, I would say I'm going to hold out my opinion until Expo where I can see all three models in person. Because right now I got the LE sitting right here. I think the art looks awesome. But I do understand, and Stern does this, they've done this with a lot of their games, where the LE art always seems to be very focused. And if you don't like the thing it's focused on, Like, like, I'll be honest. I mean, this is not Stern, but Harry Potter, I prefer the wizard edition are over the over the collector's edition art. And it's just because like when I the level of Harry Potter fan I am, I'm you I want to see the characters. I want to see all of the things. And and and that's what I think sometimes I know, like Deadpool, Deadpool's art. I almost like the pro art more or even turtles, turtles. I like the pro art on turtles more than the L.E. art because sometimes the L.E. art gets very specific. So I see what you're saying there. We've got to find something Tom likes that he likes on the L.E. more. OK, the expression lighting system. That would be about that expression. It's not on the pro. It's not on the pro. There you go. That's a good. Well, maybe that's a question. Is there anything, because you're saying I don't, you look at it as there's nothing on the LE that I want to buy, but do you feel that there's anything on the Pro that you're missing? Like, honestly, not at all. Anything? Not one-time reflection glass? Shaker motor assembly? No? Tom, I disagree with you, man. I disagree with you. This is interesting. I like this, Joel. I like this because here's why. because I know Joel, Joel, you're like super positive about everything, right? Which is perfectly fine. It's not a diss. He rides a golf cart around. It's fine. It's no big deal. Tom has, I mean, Tom, you were like fully immersed that you're a unique avatar for buying pinball because you've been in the top 100 before. You've won state championships. You played in world championships, right? I think so. And you buy LEs. Like that many, many alleys. Yeah, right. That mix is rare. That's somebody that's that ingrained in pinball to that level. That's crosses the barrier of tournament player, collector, enthusiast. Does it all right? Content creator, sex icon. Yes, exactly. Only fans icon. Everything. Tripod Tom. Let's go. So what what I'm so fascinated by this is because now we're kind of seeing this merge to where I think your opinion, what you have on it. and this isn't kissing your ass or anything, but I, I find your opinion fascinating on this because you do cross over so much on that, that I think it's such a unique opinion that maybe not saying like yours would be any more valuable than anything else, but I find it far more interesting because you come from a background that you've purchased enough LEs over years at a time, not just recent. So this isn't recency bias. Like how long have you been buying LEs for up to this point i i the first the first le i bought was avatar okay so over a decade long time yeah over a decade okay so i'm just pre-facing that for the listeners and now i'll get out joel and tom's way but yeah i find this i find this fascinating it is it is interesting and i mean i understand tom you've you've ridden the cost increase of an le like you've you've personally experienced that more than most. And, and so I understand you went from like, well, why would I not get the LE? It's the smart buy to now, like, I'm going to show a little more reservation, but you're making, I also know that you're, you're not just making the decision based on price. You actually are looking at the game and thinking, I think I will enjoy the way that the pro plays better than, than the LE. So, and you're, you've mentioned the ramp. You feel like the middle ramp is more consistent and one thing we haven't mentioned yet is the ball save you you've we've talked about this on our outside of the podcast i do not like the ball save at all on the le premium and like like to me it's just i don't know maybe it's a tournament player in me but like i just don't like like draining your ball and then like i'm gonna press this button and maybe it'll save my ball. Maybe. You had made the comment in our chat that you said you would be livid if, or maybe that wasn't your word, but it was you would be very upset if the deciding factor of one of a game in a tournament was whether or not you timed the magnet just right compared to your opponent when if it was just ball save. Like you've, you've spelled Jedi, you've hit your spinners, you've spelled Jedi. It should be a guaranteed ball save on a pro. It would just give you another ball, but on a premier elite, no, you still have to time that button press right. And hope that the magnet throws it in the right area. But is it always a timing thing? I mean, is it a guarantee that you time it right? And the ball's going to come back to you? Um, is the ball possibly going to hit the flipper underneath it? Or is it going to like go up the apron and come back or, you know, you know what I'm saying? I hear you. But to me, that's why I love it. That's why I love the ball save to me. What the way that I look at this is now that I've played the Ellie, if I was to play a pro, what would be the missing feature? What would be the thing that I would that I'm like, like, I just I miss that. like my perfect example is Deadpool. I love Deadpool pro, but man, that Katana, when that, that the way that you can hit that left orbit and the ramp can, you can like, then just hit that left orbit over and over again and tell if it's spitting in the pops. Like that to me is don't get me wrong. A Deadpool pro, I would love it, love it, love it. But now that I've, I had owned the premium for years, the mech that I would miss is that, that uptown Katana ramp on this. What is the mech that I would miss if I wasn't playing a premium or Ellie a hundred percent of magnet and and and to me that is the when i look at the two streams that i've done and this maybe this is a negative or a sad point but the highest or the most exciting moments i've had on stream is saving the ball with the magnet sure and it's just because magnets are magical when you drain it's the most exciting thing i'm like in every single stream That's why strings are so much fun. No, magnets are magical. So it's like you see the ball draining. You know what would be the magical moment for me? Getting the ball in the Dutt Star Hall. That is the most magical thing that could happen. We can talk about that. But to me, the magnet is there's just something about like I feel like you earned it. you earned the ball coming back. You've like, I do like that about certain games. You know, Godzilla has the oxygen destroyer mode and ball three or other ones. Now cactus Canyon, the new one has, if you, if you drain out the left side, you have one shot to, to hit the right drop. Like you earned your ball back. Now, but there's a question that it's just the way that it for Tom on this, if it was something similar to hell, the games, like I can't, I can't think of the game for like Pharaoh, for instance. Right. Like what if you had two other flipper buttons, right. Or an extra flipper button on each side and you could pulse the outlanes for like force ball save. Would that have been something that you would have found? I think I would have liked that better personally. But that's just me, I guess. I feel you. No, I mean, that was kind of my take when I first saw the force, when I first started doing it. I mean, it was cool at first, but then I got to where I wonder what would happen if it could have been like this. But admittedly, I haven't I've played like maybe five games total or I guess including Slapsy, like maybe eight games total on Star Wars. So I'm trying to figure out at least from a premium L.E. standpoint. So I've played like maybe four games total on it now, and I've only used it maybe three times. And I'm like one for three or maybe two or somewhere around there. So, yeah, it's kind of like it's not a gimme. Right. It's not a gimme. Am I pro? I've saved the ball 100% of the time. You're 100% success rate. You're 100% success rate. So basically what's cool about Star Wars is there's spinners on both orbits, and when you rip the spinner, you're spelling Jedi. So on a pro, you have to spell Jedi, J-E-D-I. And once you've done that, ball saves lit on both outlanes. You drain, boom, you get a ball back. On a premium or LE, if you spell J-E, what that gives you is you get two like pulses you can hit the button twice to try to save your ball and and you can do them at any time but it's but you really got to time it right you got to wait you know if you drain out the left out lane you got to wait for that ball just end up there is a ball printed on the on the play field you got to wait for that ball to be just to the left of that and then you you pulse it and it'll just rocket the ball over to the to the to the shooter lane if you go on the right one though that's where it gets tricky you have to kind of wait for it to bounce off the apron, pulse it, have your flipper up, and it will kind of throw the ball up into the play field. If you spell Jedi, though, you get the big pulse, which is you still have to time it, though, where when the ball goes to drain, you hit it and it will grab the ball and it will just hold it there, and then it kind of pulses itself in a way where it will rocket it back up. What's tough, though, is it will rocket it back up in the play field, but unless there's some spin, there's a chance it could rocket it straight up and it comes straight back down. Just watch Joel's tutorials. Yeah, it's really, I love it. Like, I love that aspect, but I also understand how people like yourself would hate it. It's the uncertainty, the inconsistency that is unfortunate. This is my other thought. Like, yeah, I hate it, but, like, you know, we've used the word casual. So people who don't listen to pinball podcasts, people who don't engulf in the content, do you think they are going to realize that there's a ball save there? Zero chance. Zero chance. Unless you know it's coming. And even when you do, that's what you said, Travis, you've only done it like three or four times and your success rate is one. My brother the first night we streamed it and as you already said we do drain a lot So we had ample opportunities I don think in that first two hours of Jared streaming I think he saved his ball like one time. And it's just like you have to figure out the timing. It's not like life ring on Jaws where it's like the moment you see it going to the out lane or right when it hits over the out lane switch, you hit the button. Like you have to wait for that ball to get right where it needs to be. It's a learning curve. I think, too, it's important, like what a lot of people got to understand. And sometimes us being in the pinball industry or listening to content, we get kind of too far in the weeds in this that we we forget what it's like to be brand new pinball. Right. So there's going to be different levels, different tiers of features that are easily accessible to people. Or I've heard this term thrown around a lot. Approachable like there's you know, it it differs. Right. So, for instance, the light speed multiball, which is found right up the middle center ramp, that should be like the easiest thing for anybody that steps up to get to. Now, that doesn't mean somebody's brand new to pinball is going to do it every single time because it still requires you to do something skillfully. Then when you take something to where you have to take your hands off the flipper buttons, hit an action button that's in the middle of the lock bar. Yes. If you're brand new to pinball, mind exploding. You don't know that exists. There's no way. So I see that as a feature that it's only if you're already fully involved in pinball. You've seen the trailer. You've maybe watched a couple of videos. You might have a grasp on it. You kind of know what's there. And then you start going after it. Like, it still takes a little while to figure out, a little while to learn. And, you know, I don't think people just walking up to a game on location, they're going to understand that. Now, somebody that buys the game for home, they may not understand it at first. Who knows? But I think they'll start to figure it out over a period of time. I think that's really what it boils down to. I think from a game theory standpoint, whenever you're putting something in a game, you do have to think of what type of player will see this feature and interact with this feature. Right? And so it's kind of like that's what marks a great game, that you have something that's easily interacted with. Like, that's why everybody loves Godzilla, because it's the mech that's right up the middle people can hit. That's why people love Attack from Mars. Exactly. It's fairly intuitive that somebody within maybe two to three games could figure out. Now, let's take the force, you know, the force save. How many games do we think somebody that's kind of played pinball a little bit, but not fully ingrained in it, just plays on location every now and again with a beer? Like, how many games would it take them to figure out that it's not only there, but to figure out how do I even qualify? How do I even know it's even qualified for me to use? You know, there's so many steps to get to that point. It would take a while, and then it would take a while for them to get the timing right. Right. And that's what this is. I would definitely say it is a feature that you have to see somebody do, and it's, yeah, it's not a gimme. It's not like it's lit by default when you first plunge. And I want to preface. That doesn't mean it's not a cool feature. We're just talking about accessibility of said feature. It's like saying a wizard mode is not cool because it takes forever to get there. You know, it could still be cool. It's just how easy is it for somebody to understand that concept in a game that's as chaotic as pinball? You know, it's incredibly difficult to get somebody to understand even the basics of it, let alone something that's second or third level beyond the basics. So we're not going to be done with Star Wars, but the game that left for me to have Star Wars all year was Medieval Madness remake. I had the Wizard Edition, and that is about the most accessible, approachable, like you don't have to teach nothing with that game. You can put anybody in front of that game, and they're going to figure out what to do almost immediately. That is, and I understand that is really why that game is so beloved is because anybody can have a good time on that game. And when I had it here, I really had a great time on it. I will tell you right now I don't think I'm going to buy one I don't think I'm going to buy one anymore and I was on the list to buy one and after having it a week or whatever it just to me I get it I understand my wife loved it she thought it was great and I remember I said between this and Cactus Canyon which one do you like more she's like Medieval Madness absolutely did you hear that Travis you got to start a rental program I just but to me I think it's an amazing game and if people own a medieval madness I totally understand why you do but maybe it's because I want I want more out of pinball right and I think the two of you guys want more out of pinball you need that challenge that depth in the code the things to do I had heard a lot of people once you destroy the character the cat wow the castle once the 10th time, the 15th time, the novelty times to wear out. Tom and I told you that three years ago, brother. I get it, but once I had it, I mean, I get it. I played the heck out of that game when it was here, and I understand. It's not the novelty of destroying the castle wore off. It was just more of like, what's next? What's the next goal? My goal was always to stack the different modes and then try to play Royal Madness or the Medieval Madness, the Multiple Madness mode, the stacked mode. My biggest issue with Cactus Canyon is the fact that the trolls is so hard to get to. My son, who wants to play the game, couldn't get to trolls. And that, to me, is like, that sucks that you have an amazing mech that's stuck behind code, and there's a lot of people that aren't going to see that. And so, to me, I'm not here to bash medieval madness. Honestly, I think it's a fantastic game, and the people that are going to buy one, I think will love it. It's a fantastic game. But it's just so weird to go from that game to this game. My wife played Star Wars for four minutes and she was done. And it was just, in her mind, it was a whole lot going on. And she's like, I just kept draining. I just kept draining. It's a fan layout. It should be approachable, right? No. It's tight. Those shots are tight and they are dangerous. So I've heard, I've actually listened to a lot of content. I rarely do, but I wanted to get the vibe. And I heard a lot of people early on talk about that. And I remember telling Tom, I'm like, I don't think people are even watching the trailer and realizing how tight some of these shots are. Like, I just I mean, you can go out there and you can do a simple count, too. There's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight shots, right? Like eight major shots out there. And you take something like ACDC. There's only five major shots out there. Now, we're not counting scoops or not counting the drop targets of the side, but we're talking like just playing the game vertical. Right. And whenever you have that many shots, the real estate starts dwindling down a little bit. Now they're right. And there are ways to manipulate more shots if you have horizontal action. So you have a dynamic layout with an upper flipper. We see Keith Elwin do that a lot. We've seen Eric from JJP be able to do something similar to that. So there are ways to work around that. But when you have that many shots on a two flipper game, you're not going to defy the laws of physics and measurements, right? There's only going to be so much real estate. So naturally, it's going to make it play a little bit faster. Plus, the other part to this game, you don't have much stop and go, right? The only true stop to this game is a Sarlacc pit. Like to me, in my opinion, that's about the only true stop, because then even the scoop, Like you hit it in there. Yes, it'll pause it a little bit. But how's it going to fire it out? Like on the games I played, the copies I've seen, the ball is like pure chaos. It's everywhere. The loop shot is a stop shot. Okay. A Vuck that kicks it back up, right? Yeah. And then what? Like are you going to backhand the Vuck again? No. Like on the fly? No. Sure. The Sarlacc hit is absolutely the – you hit that. If you hit that fast, that thing can spin around there for 10 seconds. Oh, yeah. It'll stay up there longer. It'll stay up there for like 20 seconds. Yeah. But my point being, though, it's not meant to be a stop-and-go game. No, it's fast. It's just not, yeah. And so you mix that in with the tighter shots, and then you have two pops at the bottom. Yeah, it's going to eat you up a little bit if you're not careful. Like, that's just the reality of it. The more that I've played the game, the more in the fact that Ray Day's on the code. I think Raymond has done a fantastic job. That's one thing. The code is already at a level that there's, okay, so there's eight major shots. Each shot represents a character. Each character is going to have three modes attached to it. Let's do some math. 24 modes. Then there's Vader modes. I think there's like six Vader modes. Jabba modes, there's like four. And there's almost all of that is already in the game. And the game just came out. They've done a fantastic job. And Ray gives a lot of credit to a guy named Andrew. Apparently, Andrew is a local guy in Chicago who who got hired after after Tim left. Andrew's one of the software guys. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like a player to Ray basically said, Andrew, Andrew and him have kind of tag team this together. And so you almost got double the amount of people working on on Star Wars. And they've done a fantastic job with the code. Now, the more I've played with it, though, the more I've thought, I think this is going to be a fantastic tournament game. I'm not the tournament player. Maybe I'm wrong, but Ray is the tournament player. And the speed of this game, I don't think tournament guys will have to do much to make this game brutal or to keep the ball times short. That's what I mean by that. I think the layout itself will keep the ball times short. Do you disagree, Travis, or no? I mean, it's whatever. I will say this as a tournament player, and I'm not saying this because you're saying it, Joel. I say this as a tournament player because this is so played out. These games, in my opinion, are not created with the tournament player in mind. The tournament player is a niche within a niche, right? Like these games have what I say. Yeah. And it's like I hear this like all the time. Like, let's just get this straight out, guys. Like, seriously, these games have to be designed in order to be manufactured at scale. That's what a lot of people are forgetting. Like they wonder why certain shots aren't the way they are or, hey, they need to be wild. They need to be like this homebrew. It's like, no, they need to be in a way that it can be repeatedly manufactured like 2,000 to 5,000 times, right? But on top of that, it's, you know, I don't think, like, let's face facts. How many elite-level tournament players are designing games? Like, right now, in the industry, right now. Can we start naming them off so we can just put this to bed? It's like, besides Elwin, is that it? Yeah, seriously, name anybody that's an elite-level tournament player that designs pinball. Are you saying hardware design? Because if you talk about code, I mean... Anybody that designs the pinball layout. The layout? I'm not talking about code. I'm talking about the layout. Elite level players? Any tournament player. Any tournament player. Oh, tournament player? Any tournament player. Well, I think Eric Minier is a very skilled one. I'm not talking about skilled pinball players. I'm talking about tournament players. I don't know if Eric... Mark Seiden plays in tournaments. So we can name off like two in the entire industry. Elwin plays in tournaments. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's not many. Exactly. There are people feeding into it. So this is my point, right? Yeah. You have all these designers because it's a unique thing to be able to design a pinball machine. But you don't have elite level players, elite level tournament players designing the machines. You just don't. Like you have Elwynn and that's it. So we need to get out of this thinking these games are just made for tournament players. I wasn't saying that. I wasn't saying Star Wars. Yes, you were. I wasn't saying Star Wars was designed for the tournament players. I know you're not. I'm saying I hear this all the time from other people. That Stern is just playing. They're just designing games they want to play themselves, that kind of thing. I mean, they're designed to be fun. That's what they want. But let's face facts. Is John Borg seriously designing it thinking, you know what? What will the tournament player think about this? Is that really his priority from the beginning? Do you think Brian Eddy is coming up and saying, you know what? what will the tournament player think of this fast lock like of course it might play out later on in the design right when you're doing software you're doing comp install and stuff like that but the reality is guys these games have to be designed to be fun to go on location to take a beating to go into homes they that's what they go off of otherwise here's the thing here's the thing nobody thinks of tom knows where i'm going with this oh yeah the game the games that have to be bastardize the most that are the longest players are literally the games that are designed by the most elite tournament player so you're saying ellen sucks at designing tournament no my point he designed he designs with the end user in mind he designs to make sure you're able to maximize your ball time for as long as possible that's on purpose that's not like that's not a happy accident after five or six designs. And that's what I hear people talk about this all the time on other podcasts, other YouTube videos, message boards. And it's like, guys, like, let's think about this logically real quick. So that's just my little tangent. That being said, you can make any pinball machine a tournament game if you want to. Take all the posts out. Take all the rubbers out. Make things woodshop. You could do it. Now, the key is, is the game just going to be fun just to play? Is the multiball is going to be fun to get to? Is it fun once you get into the multiballs? Is it fun figuring out where the multipliers are at? And I think, honestly, I think the way Raymond thinks about pinball, knowing what I know, I don't see any way that this rule set isn't fun once you're able to peel back the layers of the onion. Now, that being said, the game plays super fast, so it's super easy to be in modes and you may not even realize you're in modes. I've seen that happen plenty of times. So it's like, how do you balance that, right? How do you make somebody aware that they are in a mode, that they're in a game? And when you only have so many inserts out there to show that, right, it's not like there's three modes or something like that tied to each shot. And yet there's no way besides knowing the colors of what mode you're qualifying at the time. Right. So it's kind of like but it's like that for any pinball machine, pretty much like not everyone. But it's just it's hard to know everything that's in there. Right. Oh, for sure. And I I think Raymond I mean, that's what the software designers, they they've been given. layout and then they got to make they got to make their code work with the layout now i understand they are working directly with the designer so they do have some input there but you know ray was ray was essentially given this layout and been like okay make star wars now and dwight was in the same situation back in 2017 when richie was like here's my layout and then dwight has to make star wars happen so i get it um and i think ray's done a fantastic job i will say just code alone movie clips galore audio galore like the movie clips have synced audio there are there are moments a lot of the moments that you what ray said on stream was Mike Vinikour watched all the movies apparently he's the biggest star wars guy he he jotted out all the scenes that he think would be good modes and then they started care like looking at scenes based on characters like let's make that an obi-wan mode or that a luke mode or a leia mode so here's my question all the modes in the movie clips are in the game it looks like your question travis my question is Tom Graff to Joel, since there's very little stop and go here, how many of those movie clips have you been able, while you're playing, have you been able to watch? We've had this conversation. No, I'm just asking for a friend. I'm just asking for a friend. It's Spike 3. It's a bigger LCD. I've watched some. There you go, Tom. There you go. When you finish a mode, every mode ends on the Luke shot, and that's why you said stop and go. It can hold that ball in the book as long as it needs to to finish the mode. Right. So that's an intelligent way to code around what the layout's giving you. Like that's very smart to have every end shot to a mission end at the loop because it does give you a second to breathe and it gives you a second to see, like to hear the sounds or see whatever or see where you're going to next. Right? But the fact is the only place to end the mission is pretty much there. I mean, now in Vader mode you can end it back at the scoop. So you have to choose It's the two places where the ball can stage momentarily. And that's what makes it difficult. When you don't have a game that has a lot of staging, which is cool. Like, everybody loves flow. We hear that all the time. But at the same time, when you have so many modes, you're going to have to find a way to be able to have people experience those movies and stuff like that, right? So it's like that's the tough part about it. That's the tough part about modern pinball, trying to figure out your way around that and navigate that. stern has done a lot of up post a lot of up posts in the inlanes that's that's and because then you can end modes or start modes on ramps um and i am surprised i i am surprised that star wars doesn't have an up post for just that to start a mode or to show something i almost felt like it was going to come with that when i heard about it and i first you know saw the trailer like the first thing in my head was like up post but maybe it's just because we're like chimpanzees right We're just trained to think up posts with sterns at this point. Yeah. Um, Tom had already brought this up. The, the death star shot, the death star. It's when I look at a pinball machine, if you know, if my wife's stepping up to the game and usually you want to instruct, you know, like, well do that, do that thing. Unfortunately, the coolest Mac in the game, besides the magnet, the coolest Mac in the game is the death star, but no casual is going to start death star multiple that shot i'm looking at it right now that shot it seems like the light lock target the droid shot in front of the atat it looks like that shot is wider than the death star ramp why that why the atat target isn't thinner to allow the Death Star ramp to be wider? I don't know. I don't know. But the Death Star ramp is a very tight shot. Not only do you have to hit it, you have to hit it clean, though, because the way that the mech currently is designed, if that ball isn't clean, it is not going to stay locked in the Death Star. It's going to rattle in some way and come right back out. I've had a lot of rejects. Tom, you had a great quote. What did you say? The Death Star is rejecting me like women in high school? Something like that it was it was very funny um no tom what are your thoughts on death star just tell us tell us all about it i it weird because like i my particular pro model game i can backhand the death star just fine and and get it in into the mechanism for a lock but if i hit a clean shot from the left flip or excuse me the right flipper yeah so left flipper backhand i'm fine right flipper right up the middle right into the heart of it and it i i don't know if it air balls or something but it it does not go in yeah and i don't know and i'm not trying to discourage people that have it on order i think i think stern is very good at figuring out fixes or ways to adjust i do have faith that like this is an important mech they've they've proven this many times on previous games um stranger things is a good example of the the demogorgon mech of having to adjust it or making fits to make it so the mech works the way it's supposed to i do think there will be ways to do that i do think though like if you turned off the motor of the death star you can bash the death star all day long that would be a very easy way to start you can make virtual virtual you could do that and i don't i i would never want somebody with a brand new game to just assume that, oh, I'll just make it virtual and live that life. I do think we will find a way to get that to work. Might as well just turn off the magnet. No. No. But the Death Star, I will say there is a very cool, when you start Death Star Multiball, when you finish it, it is a very cool moment. It is a very cool mode, the way that they have that programmed. It just sucks that it's the hardest shot in the game, and it's also the coolest mech in the game, and that's unfortunate. It's kind of like the milk crate mech in Houdini. It's like, this is the coolest mech in the game, but no casual will ever see that ball thrown back because they're never going to hit that shot. I mean, you know, when it comes to the Star Wars, though, I mean, it can easily be coded around, right? You could make light speed have something to do with the Death Star at some point. Like, you could always, I'm sure there's plenty of modes in there we just haven't discovered yet that has something to do with the Death Star besides Death Star multiball, you know? So, yeah, and I think, too, you know, not to discourage people if they're wanting to play the game. And this isn't the pinball company, Travis talking. This is like pinball player Travis talking like everybody's going to have everybody's going to have different opinions and different wants out of a game. Right. So if you're the type of player that wants a game that's super fast, super challenging and you enjoy Star Wars. yeah this will be the game for you because it is star wars it does have the sounds to it it does have the music to it and the sounds sound excellent like i can't yeah for the small speakers the audio is really good well on your on your pro tom you don't have the tweeters i don't the tweeters are legit yeah the sound audio the sound on this is crazy with the sound you know it's funny there's like there's like an actual like metal plate that you can unscrew and it looks like you can add one oh for sure i think i think that's going to be upgradable like i think that was something they talked about of all of we're going to talk about spike three right because i think a year from now great well that's why like to wrap up what i was about saying a nice bow then we could talk about spike three or whatever you guys want to talk about that But I think the thing that I would tell everybody, if you're watching content or you're listening to people and you're kind of deciding whether or not, just keep in mind, the track record of the people behind the software is great. Raymond's put out some bangers. Yeah, don't get me wrong. I mean, I'm happy with the pro. I'm just saying that. Oh, yeah. No, I'm saying there's a difference between, like, of course, we could talk about the play field design all day long. because the coders and software people have to work within the confines that they have. But I think that there's certain meat there software-wise that you can go to places with. I think if you're a Star Wars fan, you like fast games, you'll probably like this. Now, if you prefer the Elwynn layouts and you prefer dynamic layouts, then of course, any logical person is going to tell you, yeah, this might not be the game for you. I mean, that's just the obvious thing because there's no other flipper. The flow is a little bit different. Like, it just depends, right? But that's the difference. That's the Stern way because they put out several games a year that are all radically different from each other. I don't want to – I know we've said a lot of negative towards this, but what has Stern done very well? Or what I – you know, pat on the back. Where are they winning with Star Wars? They manufacture the games. Code animations. That's what I was going to say. Yeah, when they announce the game, it gets out. It's a brand new game, and it's got this depth of code. Huge win. Really impressive. The layout's not a bad layout. I mean, it's not. It's just got some tight shots. I like it better than the 2017. I do, too. This game is more fun to shoot, in my opinion, than the Steve Ritchie Star Wars. Yeah, I think I could probably agree to that overall. I think the only thing is, is I probably find I find this new Star Wars more fun to shoot than the old Star Wars. But I find the Death Star shot when you hit it on the old Star Wars and you get like hyperspace multiball and you get like you destroy the Death Star. Like, I really want something like that in this game. Like as well. Yeah. I mean, I guess I guess we could I guess we could say the moment. But I'm just talking about like, yeah, just like like that's a wow factor to me when you're like cashing in a 20 or 40 X hyperspace jackpot. There's no 40 X in this. Well, yeah. Yeah. Like we need Dwight to come in and just take the multipliers from 2X to 200 X. Yeah. You can loop the center ramp when you're in multiball. And all of a sudden that's the that's your. Yeah. Like you can just. Yeah. Yeah. That's really a fun thing to do. Yeah. I mean, there's things there. I'm just saying like just that one specific shot that you're just like, okay, good shot and victory. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of weird. It's like the totality of what star Wars is now, the 2025, I like better than 2017. I just, I just want to find that one shot that exceeds the death star shot for me personally on 2017. You should try, you should try draining and then saving the ball with your magnet. That's a pretty awesome shot. The first time. Okay. the first time i did it the first time i did it it was pretty dope i'm not gonna lie because the ball actually staged where yoda has the pinball right on him it just stayed there i wasn't sure what was happening i'm like is it supposed to come up why is it just there so i quickly hit the action button one more time it just fired it straight up yep i'm like this is awesome this is so cool yeah and then it happened again and i hit it and nothing happened i'm like shit i missed it it's not so awesome right now so i'm trying to figure out the timing you'll find it you'll find I just got to join better. All it is. If you have a Star Wars on order, I really I think you are. I think you will really enjoy the game as a Star Wars fan. You will really enjoy the game. But my question to you is, I think a good comparison here is you have Star Wars, Stern Star Wars that just came out. And then you have you have J.J.P.'s Harry Potter. So two ginormous themes. with that said i'm going to start with tom which which of those which one of those games do you feel they they they met the assignment better like huge themes these should be cash cows evergreen titles they should make a ton of them so with that audience in mind with the audience being so big which i mean which game do you think met the mark better i'd have to say harry potter and why is that just overall presentation i mean it's uh i i mean right now it's it's a hard it's a hard comparison because harry potter's been out at least a little longer than star wars and um but if we're if we're talking like art packages and like play field layout and what you're getting, I would have to give the nod to Harry Potter. Okay. Yeah, we could do that. I mean, I think they both go. We know. We know. Maybe we don't know. But like Harry Potter is supposed to go to like the 1.0 code at Expo. And there's actually a beta. I haven't downloaded it yet because I just haven't had time. But I plan to do it this weekend. And check out what's what's changed. But, you know, I don't I don't think we're going to see Star Wars finished till like the next three titles at Stern have been released. And that's just and that's not a knock to like, you know, the people on the code. That's just that's just what's been presented to us the last year or two. so you know that's where i'm saying it's like a very hard comparison because the game's not going to be finished for for a year all the modes aren't going to be in the game and star there's a ton i mean there's already more modes in the game than i think most people could even work through there's a there's a ton there the game's far from shallow but when i think of the audience the question that i have and and my view is i kind of think there are areas that both of the games have missed the mark and what what i mean by that is if this yeah if this game is supposed to be for such a huge audience that means a lot of novice a lot of casual players in my opinion both of them have challenging layouts like they're both they both like the speed at which the ball comes back on harry potter yeah i think is very challenging and then just the overall like i think they both have very challenging layouts for for novice players and then i both think the complexity of the code is there's so much going on in both of them i think it would be very hard for a novice to know what they're doing or how they're doing it uh without instruction or somebody showing them what to do now star wars does a good job of like you qualify mode by hitting stand-ups you can fall into a mode essentially it's any stand-up is your spelling force and then any major shot will start a mode so i think novice any novice should be able to start a mode pretty easily on star wars we've already talked about this on Harry Potter. You've got to hit the scoop shot. You've got to hope you get in the scoop shot. I think what's interesting with Harry Potter and Star Wars, if I was to compare both, and again, this is just me. I know people are going to be like, well, you don't sell J.J.P. This is me, the pinball player speaking. I think what's unique to me is that if I look at Harry Potter and Star Wars together, I see Harry Potter as more like it's the world of Harry Potter. Like that, like I feel like that's the world of like its whole universe that it has compared to what I see on Star Wars. But yet when I start playing the game, I feel like when I play Star Wars, I'm actually experiencing Star Wars. Whereas if I play Harry Potter, I don't feel like I'm necessarily experiencing Harry Potter unless I go to very specific places with the game. Like very specifically focused on like I feel like going for the schnitzel or whatever that's called. I disagree with that. I just feel like you don't know the lessons. I played it a couple of times. I still don't even know when I'm in the lessons. When I'm in Han vs. Greedo, I know damn well I'm in Han vs. Greedo in Star Wars. Tom's going to tell you why you're wrong. Tom, tell him why he's wrong. Joel, that was interesting. You sounded like you just became AI digitized. Oh, for real? Oh, I came in weird. Oh, that's weird. I was saying that nothing looked weird on my end. Nothing worked weird. Sorry, guys. These are not the droids you're looking for. They're on to us. He sounded exactly like C-3PO. Oh, that's really. I hope that comes through in the end recording. What I was saying was, Tom. And I disagree with Travis because when I play Harry Potter and I'm actually in a movie, it follows the movie sequence so whereas like where Star Wars it's like okay sometimes I'm in like you know A New Hope and sometimes I'm in Return of the Jedi and sometimes I'm in Empire Strikes Back and you know and I'm not saying that's bad but I think there's more cohesiveness in some of those lessons with Harry Potter than Star Wars. If you're talking about sequential order, if you're able to absolutely pay attention to it, then yeah, of course, because they have the movies separated from each other so they have their own little ecosystems built in, whereas with Star Wars, you're not necessarily going into it and saying, I'm playing A New Hope right now and I'm gonna I'm gonna go through all the battles of a new hope like um I don't know I mean it would have been cool if they would have done something like that but I think even if I pick like say movie three from Harry Potter right like once I get a ball and a flipper there's so many lights going on and so many things stacking up on each other like I don't know where I'm at in that particular movie at that point I just know I'm in the movie so I'm trying to play the movie in my head now kudos to anybody else that knows exactly where they're at in the movie i just know i'm not skillful enough to realize that unless i'm like trapping up looking up and figuring it out that's just that's just how i feel when i'm playing it whereas with star wars it's not as much yeah with star wars unless like if raymond all of a sudden or andrew decided just to latch on like 30 things on top of han versus grito then i'd be a little bit more confused but maybe it's just my It's brain. I can't process that much at any given time. It's overlap versus focused. And that's something that Harry Potter has zero hesitation with the overlap. You can have a lot going on all at once. While Star Wars, it's very focused. It's very focused of you're going to have, am I, am I really, I sound weird again? I mean not as weird as you usually do but I mean it's kind of like you're like a chat GPT AI right now gone broke I mean if it's fetch robot Joel Joel's been replaced if it's is it still that way if we need to stop and restart no you sound great buddy let's just push forward let's go ahead and stop then and then we'll do a new recording we're back I don't I'm gonna have to edit that way apparently I was sounding like a robot I have no idea if that's gonna sound like that's gonna be in the final well I have to edit the cut we started a new whatever here we are we realized we have like 20 minutes left so we we gotta wrap this this is how you drain properly so Stern make your LEs better how do you really feel Tom we're going to talk about Expo but it's the reality is there's a lot that J.J.P. has done right with Harry Potter there's a lot that Stern has done right with Star Wars and when you have themes that are that big there's no way to be perfect there's no way to do whatever it's just to me it is surprising that I think both of them have somewhat challenging layouts when this is such when they're such big themes like they didn't simplify, in my opinion. They didn't make it like, well, let's make it an easy shooter. I just keep thinking of Medieval Madness because that was the last game that was in the house where it's very friendly, like a more friendly shooter. We want to talk about Spike 3. We want to talk about Spike 3. We're going to keep it short and sweet. What do we like or what's exciting to me? This is Stern's platform moving forward. What do I see that's in Spike 3 that I'm excited about? The one thing we all agreed on, the bigger screen is awesome. I really like that. They found a way to add a bigger screen without it feeling like they didn't go to JJP level where it's this massive, like the whole backbox. You still have an awesome Translight. The way they squeeze this screen in, it's the same size. Raymond did say this is a 1080p screen. It's actually 1920 by 1080. The previous one was closer to like 720 resolution and the DPI is higher on this screen. So the image quality, like it looks like the blacks are richer. The screen is bigger. It does genuinely look like a better screen. And I am a fan. I am definitely a fan of the screen. The audio, I have not heard the pro, but the LE has their smaller speakers, but there's tweeters. I do think the audio sounds better. It's fuller. It's more crisp. The fact that the audio is better, fantastic improvement. Things I don't like. I don't like the expression speaker lights. I don't, I like the look of these more. And one of the reasons is the plate that they have to diffuse the light. It's all white. So now it just looks like you have white speakers, like Dick White rectangles. And I just, I don't like it. And when you actually look at the speaker lights themselves, there's not many LEDs in there. So if they would have added other LEDs in the white open areas? Maybe. Maybe that would look better. But I'd be curious if somebody's going to make it where it's like make a black plate but only show two white rings. Maybe that would look better in my mind than the large white rectangle. I don't love it. I don't love it. One change I did see. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say they can just put like a black, something black behind it. I think there's going to be something to do. I just don't like how it's all white. Modders, you heard Joel. There you go. There's your idea. What I will say is on the CPU board itself, there are three header pins for or three areas for it says cabinet accessory, speaker accessory, and topper accessory. So in those and this one, the speaker accessory and the cabinet accessory are plugged directly into it. So there no separate node board for expression lights on this game So it very clear to me I think moving forward the capability of having expression lighting is going to be right there for them to use on every game Now whether or not the designer decides to use it, I don't know. And then on Star Wars, you know, they made the decision that the pros won't have, like, it's not routed in the cabinet. You can't put expression lights into the pro. But there's no, no, like it's all there. So I'm excited. I'm excited for what the platform is. Is it as game-changing, revolutionary industry, you know, first as we kind of thought it could be? No. But is it an improvement on Spike 2? I do. I do think it's an improvement on Spike 2. So we'll have to wait and see on what's next because, you know, Goma has already said not everything Spike 3 is in this game. So we'll have to see beyond that. Travis, any thoughts? You have not said a word since we restarted. I mean, it's Spike 3. it's been interesting i think one of the things i noticed right off the bat when they first put out the trailers and everything i think i told you guys this immediately i'm like it's interesting that they're leading talking about the spike 3 platform when the majority of people that see this will not care no idea what it is yeah yeah they just they won't know right so i've kind of found that in us pushing the game in our own company marketing we haven't even made any mentions of Spike 3 at all. It's just because I think when people are buying a game, a pinball, they're not buying the platform. They're just not. They're buying the theme. They're buying the fun. It's like, how do you explain to somebody because it says Spike 3? That would insinuate that they're huge fans of Spike 2, right? It'd be like if you're buying a console game of Xbox or PlayStation, you're already an Xbox or PlayStation fan, And so you're excited about the PlayStation 5 existing. But that being said, like, of course, yeah, the sound sounds great and all that. I think it's just I found it fascinating how they decided to lead with Spike 3 stuff beyond or above what this game actually is on, you know, on any of the promo stuff. So it's kind of like it's kind of working through that, too, because we've we've sent some. Obviously, we've sold some of the Star Wars games. and what I found most fascinating about it is the people that we didn't mention Spike 3 to or anything like that, even setting up the games, they didn't even realize, even while playing it, that the LCD was bigger, right? They noticed the sound, but they didn't realize and I had to point it out to them. And they're looking at it, looking at their other games, they're kind of like, okay, it's still screen, what's the difference? And I'm like, oh, it's a little bit bigger, right? And so then it clicks off, but that just goes to show you It's it's interesting what people value. And even we went to a recent show that was 95 percent new people to pinball. Right. Yeah. And they were all far more fascinated with what was under that glass. And it's not. Well, I wanted to test it out. And that's the key. Right. Like if we're trying to get this product and expand pinball. Right. In order to expand, that means you've got to find somebody that's new. If you find somebody that's new, then they're going to see pinball. Do they want to know what's under the glass or do they want to know what the platform is? I get you. And I understand if you are a crack dealer. That's just the interesting part to me. So I just I find it fascinating that that's what's being led with. I'm not saying it's not cool. I'm not saying the screen isn't beautiful. I'm not saying it's not like the sound is fantastic. I just really wonder, you know, I don't think people are going to care about it near as much as some people think. Like, I think it's just going to take a long time for people to really like maybe the cabinet's going to change with the next one because we keep hearing. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That not everything's in there. So it's like but yet some of the Spike 3 stuff has came out recently before Star Wars. So I'm more curious to see what will the full package look like and what does that equate to for the end user? Like, how does that benefit the end user for a more fun experience overall when playing and dealing with their pinball machine? I hear you. And I hear what you're saying. I mean, you have more experience in this than me. But if novice are looking at games and they're like, well, we could get this or this. And they're like, well, that one, that screen's three inches bigger. So let's get the one that's like anybody looking at it. Not even novice, like anybody. I mean, of course, yeah, I see people that are brand new to pinball all the time. And I've never led, I've never led with stream, but I will say this. I will admit this. When you get somebody that's brand new to pinball and you point out that there's movie assets, like that's cool to them. They find it, that's cool. They just, they never notice it at the beginning just because they're so focused, laser focused on what's pinball. Oh, you should be focused on the game, the pinball, the physical. Yes, I see what you're saying. And I just what I think is the improvements that they made. I like the improvements that they made. And I'm excited to see what they make with this platform going forward. So there's two of them. There's two things that I'm really happy that they made the sound and HDMI out. Like on a personal level, I'm ecstatic about HDMI. That is awesome. I mean, I've streamed the game twice to have one cable. One cable is the only thing I got to plug into the game. And then I've already configured my end here to get it to work with sound and audio where it's just like, boom, consistency. It's just, boom, I'm plugging one cable in and I got direct audio and HDMI. I think for people that are getting new into creating content, the fact that you won't have to buy, you know, hunt down one of these boards to do the LVDS direct capture is awesome. I think this is it's it's a it's a it's a tool that that I I'm surprised that Stern did, but I'm so glad they did it. This is another reason I'm mad at Stern. Travis has a bunch of those boards. Joel has a bunch of those boards. I have one. I'm buying all the LEs and streaming them. I have one Stern board. They haven't sent me any boards. This board is the one that you get out of Australia. That's where I get mine from. Yeah, they're great. Okay, so spike three. Boom, check. We only have 13 minutes left. 13 minutes. So we got a rapid fire. Rapid Fire, Pinball Expo. We're going to be there. Tom's going to be in the streaming room. If you say hi to Tom, bring him food. But, yes, Tom will be in the streaming room. I will be walking around. Travis will be walking around. You don't have a booth. You're not a booth, babe, this one, right, Travis? No, no. There's no chance ever. I don't want to work a booth at Expo ever again. Okay, so Travis will be walking around. Game rumors. Let's talk about game rumors. Yes. So there's. Oh, rumor. I thought you meant rumor as in R-O-O-M-E-R-S. I'm like, is that something new? Okay. Rumors. Okay. Let's just go through the. So American Pinball, I don't know what they're doing. They're hinting at something, but I don't even know if it's pinball or if it's a redemption game. I don't know what's going on. Wait, American Pinball has a booth there? I think they've. I don't know. I know there's something. Okay. CGC should have Medieval Madness Merlins. They should probably also have Cactus Kings with the new kits. Definitely play the game with the new kit. I know Barrels of Fun will be there with Dune. They've already said that they're trying to set up some games in some different areas for you to really experience the sound and the lighting. And go play that because that's such a unique experience. It's like the house system, I think is what they call it, right? I want to really check out Dune. the sound and the lights are just yeah it's wild like i think it's underrated for the pinball industry it's so good yeah and that's the game my wife keeps talking about which she doesn't talk about pinball but dune really made an impact on her if you don't get your wife a dune i'm gonna slap you i know i really i can't you notice how every game that his wife likes he's like okay it's gone it's one it's one game that's one game that she would want you just said she liked medieval madness okay so she's like some more than others but like she wasn't like hey she like stranger things hitting the demogorgon where's that at yeah yeah i think dune if i was tom are you seeing it yeah jared and my brother and and nicole would both want dune i maybe i should just buy one but it's really good and i want to play david did you hear that i think joel just said we're gonna we're gonna take joel from maybe i should just buy one to i'm going to just buy one. I'm going to do this for David. Okay. You need a Dune, Joel. I know. I know. If only you knew somebody that sells Dunes. If only you knew somebody. If only. I had an opportunity to buy one and then I bought X-Men. Yeah. How's that working out for you? I think I'm muted. I sneeze. X-Men, I'm enjoying X-Men. I'm still holding out hope. The code is still coming along, but it's getting better. Where is it? I do enjoy X-Men. Right there? Oh, okay. Oh, the code. Oh, I see. Oh. Well, Nicole doesn't like it, so it's going to stay for a long time. It has a generic Stern topper on it. Yeah, I hope they release that. So, Stern, is there a chance? It would be amazing if they released some accessories before Expo. They've done that before to release some accessories that people get to see at Expo. And also, if you guys remember last year, they released Metallica Remake right before Expo. I don't know. I don't know if they're releasing anything before Expo. It would be cool if they did, but I don't know. So Stern might have something new. I don't know. Otherwise, play Star Wars. Regardless, play Star Wars when you're an ex-boy. We keep hearing rumors about an alleged Walking Dead remake. Walking Dead remake, which I don't know. We will have to see if that's a thing. We will know more in a week. How excited are you for a Walking Dead remastered? I streamed Walking Dead a few weeks back and actually really had a great time with that game. Yeah. Would I ever own it? No, it's disgusting. It's disgusting, that game. But I'm very curious to see what direction they go with with the remake, whether or not they change the art or what the LCD is. But the code, I really enjoyed that game when I had it. So I would absolutely be excited for a remake to play it and stream that. JJP's going to be having Harry Potters. Personally, I'm excited to play. I want to play the Arcade Edition and the Wizard just because I want to see how different it is. But I do want to play it more, especially with the finished code, the 1.0 code that will be there. Spooky will be there. I don't think they're in a position to release their next game. So I guess it will just be Evil Dead. With that said, they've had a lot more code to Evil Dead since the last time I played it. So I'm looking forward to playing that game more myself. What else do we have? I assume Turner Pinball will be there with Merlin's Arcade. It'll be cool to see those guys again. I don't know if Multimorphic is going to be there. If they are, I would assume that they will have Portal. I want to play that game again. Yeah, I would assume a distributor usually is there from them with P3. Yeah, there's a lot. Who are we forgetting? I don't know. There's like 75 companies. Spooky, maybe? How are we putting that all right here? pinball adventures i don't know i was naming off people i just don't know if there's gonna be new games dpx are there gonna be statues of bally williams is carrie hardy gonna be walking around with those everywhere maybe that's what stern should do that's a great idea if stern really wants to move star wars units they need to like start selling star wars figurines i don't know why they haven't thought of that yet i do personally think they should that there should be more pinball merch. I've always thought, I think as cool as the artwork is, why every game doesn't have a t-shirt or something related to that, I don't know. Now I understand apparel probably is a whole other license. There's probably plenty of reasons. Oh, there we go. But I do wish there was more merch. One thing I have not asked for, though, is collectible figurines. What are you going to do with more merch? You wear shirts. You just want more lunch boxes. I guarantee people would just be handing Joel stuff as he's there. So don't worry. I would love more shirts. I would love more shirts. This is like a backdoor way for Joel to get free stuff. That's not what I'm saying. When I think of pinball, Hey, everybody out there listening, you know what? I really want new hubcaps for my golf cart. You bought, God, you buy, you buy the machine, you buy accessories for the machine. That's all I asked for. That's merch. That's what I'm saying. Oh, but I want one. Okay. Do they make one? Yes. Yeah, apparently Alwyn has one. Oh, well, talk to him. I'm not stealing Keith's hat. No, Keith is finishing every single design, right? So he's probably finishing all the merch. Yeah. One man band over at Stern, yeah. I just saw we have seven minutes left. So reality is we will all be at Expo. If you see us, come say hi. We'd love to talk to you. Aren't you doing like a... I am doing a presentation. What's your presentation about? Pinball Media Creation. Jack Engelbert. Jack Engelbert, yeah. Pinball Media Creation. So it's me and Loser Kids and my brother and Retro Ralph. And honestly, our outline for the presentation is very small. So it's really, it's... Shocker. If you guys are there, feel free to come. We're going to have a lot of audience participation or just questions. I don't know. I don't know what people want to hear. I would love to do a streaming seminar. Yes, that would be – we're going to talk about that. I would just bring everybody to my booth during Expo. Don't touch that. Don't touch that. No. See that? Don't touch that. So we do have a seminar. I think it's either 10 or 11 on Friday. So come. Feel free to listen to that. They gave you the prime time then. Sure. Right? I don't know. Jared and I get there Friday morning. Oh, is it in the morning? Saturday late. Yes. Joel, how much are you getting paid to do this? I get a free ticket to Expo. Oh, nice. Yeah. If you present, you get a ticket to Expo. So Jared and I get free tickets to Expo. Or at least that's what Josh Rupp is telling me. So if I go to check in and they're like, we don't have you on the list, we'll be in trouble. You'll be like, what? We'll have to figure that out. Check under Jack. See you later. Let me see. What time are you doing this? Thursday? 11 on Friday. Yep. And oh, in the morning, the morning, isn't that during the stern tour? Probably. There'll probably be four people in the audience, but you know what? I think we'll have a great conversation with the four people. And, um, uh, isn't that when you usually, you and Jared usually come in and announce in my booth. I will gladly commentate whenever you need me to commentate. Oh, there you are. Yeah. Joel Engelbert flipping out and triple drain. I thought it was Jack. It was Jack originally. They changed it to Joel. They did change it back. His last name's still Engelbert, though. Okay, I forgot the H. It's fine. I'm calling you that from now on, Mr. Engelbert. We'll be at Expo. I can't wait to hear from Ralph and Josh, though. I bet they have some good stuff to talk about. I know. Your brother's not even on there either. I know. What in the world? But I think Jared's going to have a mic, so he'll have plenty to talk about. Yeah, I do want to hear what Jared has to say. Can you get Ralph's autograph for me? Sure, sure. I'll get right on that. Yep. thank you um we got four minutes travis said very clearly that he had to leave he's got i have to go to the man doctor okay man doctor i'm 41 years old i gotta have a 40 year old enjoy your prostate exam i don't think it's that yet i didn't have to do like any uh what do you call it fasting or anything like that so no blood your elbows on the table cough twice yeah you'll love it anyways let's wrap it up let's wrap it up because we're already at that point Tom what are we wrapping right now? Oh we're ending it we're plugging, let's plug out I'm streaming Expo on my Fox Cities Pinball channel on Twitch otherwise look for me here on Triple Drain there you go, Travis go for it yeah I'm Travis, I'm right here on Triple Drain, you can find me also on the Pinball Company YouTube channel and then you can also find me in the audience heckling Joel whenever his thing is. And then, yeah. I think you're busy. I would love to. I'll try to get there. There's just so much going on. I think I might be at the media mixer if I can make it up there in time because I'm playing certain pro circuit event and I got to do all this other stuff too. I would have loved to do the media mixer on Thursday, but yeah, we can't head out until Friday morning. But you're big leaguing all of us and then you're giving like a panel about media creation. Yeah. Children, man. It's crazy. Engelbert. Let me tell you. We'll be there. We'll be there. Yes. Please come say hi. And I'm Joel. I do the Flip N Out Pinball YouTube stream every Wednesday. And then also this, obviously, Triple Drain. So check out all that. But yeah, we will probably hopefully record again soon because if there's something announced at Expo, it'll be fun to talk about. But also it'll be fun just to discuss what we did at Expo. So hopefully we can record again within the next few weeks and knock one out, which, yeah, this was a long gap between our last recording and this one. So hopefully that won't happen again. But please come say hi. If you're at Expo, please come say hi. It will. Spoiler alert. It totally will. Tom and I have other stuff to do, Joel. We have contract negotiations. We have streaming. I get it. I mean, I don't stream, but I'm sure I would have streaming if I did. I actually look forward to seeing you too it'll be fun I look forward to it Expo's always a good time not only to see you guys but just to meet people and talk there's so many great people there please say hi to people and if you're waiting in line talk to the person you're waiting in line everybody there loves pinball make a friend, just be social, have a great time wear deodorant wear deodorant and if you just don't... There's a t-shirt merch, Joe. If you've started, if you finish a game, look behind you before you start another one. Don't, yeah, don't spend 40 minutes on a pinball game. If there's people behind you, let them play. Have a great time. Have a great time. Don't start a four-player game. That's just... If it's just you, don't do it. Don't do it, yeah. You deserve to be slapped. And on that note, Tom, you get the last words. Have fun at Expo.

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v4)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: f1c66694-6d80-4efe-b689-fff0263f04de*