# $1000 Pinball? Alice Goes To Wonderland

**Source:** BlahCade Pinball Podcast  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2025-03-17  
**Duration:** 101m 21s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/blahcade-pinball-podcast/episodes/1000-Pinball--Alice-Goes-To-Wonderland-e30hv11

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## Analysis

Chris Frebus and Jared Morgan discuss AtGames' failed Zen release calendar, new licensed music for Jurassic Park tables, upcoming VR Pinball Effects for Meta Quest, and preview Alice Goes to Wonderland. They analyze VR implementation details including hand tracking, cosmetic systems, and pass-through capabilities while critiquing UX decisions like intrusive virtual hands and visual overlays.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] AtGames/Zen's published release calendar was pulled almost immediately after publishing — _Jared states the calendar 'got pulled almost immediately' and 'they learned their lesson.' Chris speculates they 'might have gotten a phone call from Mel [likely licensing contact]'_
- [HIGH] Star Wars tables were supposed to dominate through April but didn't; Medieval Madness, Getaway, and Junkyard released this week instead of September — _Chris: 'We were supposed to be getting nothing but Star Wars tables for the first, you know, through April, I believe. We have not gotten Star Wars tables... We weren't supposed to be getting Medieval Madness, Getaway, and Junkyard until like September or something like that. That's what's coming out this week.'_
- [HIGH] Zen added licensed John Williams music to Jurassic Park tables, including multiball-specific themes — _Jared: 'they have not done any code updates to anything. But with that music playing, there's something about it... It does feel, I don't know, more immersive.' Chris notes multiple pieces: 'Not just one piece of music. It's a couple that they've got in there too.'_
- [HIGH] VR Pinball Effects will release on Meta Quest exclusively, not PC VR or PlayStation VR at launch — _Jared: 'this is releasing on Meta exclusively. It's not going to be on any PC VR or PlayStation VR. For the moment.' Uses hand tracking and pass-through capabilities._
- [HIGH] Xeno Tilt received scoring modifications making mini-games high-value opportunities — _Chris: 'they've done some modifications to how the game scores... now it's just the mini-games. That's where it's at.' Jared confirms mini-game scoring provides 'massive amount of points.'_
- [HIGH] Pro Pinball is currently 50% off on Steam for $7.99 — _Chris: 'Pro Pinball for 50% off right now, so I think it's $7.99' but notes 'I don't think there's a cabinet mode.'_
- [HIGH] VR Pinball Effects uses room-scale VR capability for warehouse-scale cabinet layouts — _Jared: 'the game at the moment on the Meta Store is linked as room-scale VR so if you have a warehouse you could basically lay out a warehouse with all the games'_
- [MEDIUM] Pinball Wicked game appears to be cancelled or indefinitely stalled — _Jared: 'At least they're still working on it, unlike Pinball Wicked. Oh, that's dead. I don't know what that's. Just dead. Nothing's happening with that game.'_

### Notable Quotes

> "the calendar is... Maybe it amounts to more of a 'here's the list of games that we'll be releasing this year, but in no particular order.'"
> — **Jared Morgan**, early discussion of Zen calendar
> _Characterizes the failed AtGames/Zen release schedule as essentially meaningless due to inaccuracy_

> "I feel like they might have gotten a phone call from Mel."
> — **Chris Frebus**, calendar discussion
> _Suggests corporate/licensing pressure may have forced calendar retraction_

> "If you're sleeping on Xeno Tilt, folks, don't. Because it's a really, really good game."
> — **Jared Morgan**, Xeno Tilt discussion
> _Strong endorsement of the digital pinball title after recent updates_

> "I personally don't like it because the hands get in the way... if you're just sitting on a chair... I see the hands on the cabinet. It's a bit of a visual mismatch for me."
> — **Jared Morgan**, VR Pinball Effects analysis
> _Critique of VR implementation design choice regarding virtual hand tracking visibility_

> "I would love to see those accurate backglasses. Yes. It would just make a world of difference."
> — **Chris Frebus**, VR Pinball Effects discussion
> _Expresses desire for DMD/backglass authenticity in VR implementation_

> "If that thing starts flying in front of my vision when I'm playing pinball, I'm going to be like... Angry."
> — **Jared Morgan**, Sky Pirates table discussion
> _Strong negative reaction to floating object (monkey) obstruction in VR gameplay_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Chris Frebus | person | Co-host of Blockade Pinball Podcast (alias: Shut Your Trap); based in North America (daylight savings referenced); discusses digital pinball, VR implementation, and industry trends |
| Jared Morgan | person | Co-host of Blockade Pinball Podcast; located 'halfway across the world' from Chris; deeply engaged with digital pinball analysis and VR implementation details |
| AtGames | company | Released Zen Pinball cabinet; failed to maintain published release calendar; working with Zen Studios on licensing music for tables |
| Zen Studios | company | Digital pinball developer; released Jurassic Park with new licensed music; developing VR Pinball Effects for Meta Quest; maintains Pinball FX and other digital titles; production calendar was leaked/pulled |
| Meta/Meta Quest | company | Exclusive platform for VR Pinball Effects at launch; Quest 2 (black/white pass-through) and Quest 3 (color pass-through) support different visual modes |
| Wonderland Amusements | company | Developer of Alice Goes to Wonderland pinball game; discussed for second half of episode |
| VR Pinball Effects | product | Zen Studios VR title for Meta Quest; features hand tracking, pass-through VR, room-scale layout, daily rewards system, cosmetic unlocks via 'lucky wheel' currency system |
| Xeno Tilt | product | Digital pinball game; recently updated with mini-game scoring modifications; available on AtGames cabinet and PC; Jared achieved 1.4B+ score, Chris doubled it; praised by hosts |
| Demon's Tilt | product | Digital pinball game; compared to Xeno Tilt regarding mini-game scoring value; mentioned as companion title with similar mechanics |
| Jurassic Park | product | Zen digital pinball table now featuring licensed John Williams orchestral music; multiple theme pieces including multiball variations; significantly improves immersion per hosts |
| Jurassic World | product | Zen digital table; described by hosts as having Data East movie tie-in aesthetic; feels like classic licensed table with actor features |
| Star Wars Pinball | product | Zen collection with 15+ tables; hosts criticize repetitive licensed music across tables reducing audio flavor/differentiation |
| Pro Pinball | product | Retro digital pinball series available on Steam; currently 50% off ($7.99); includes Time Shock, Big Race USA; Chris questions cabinet mode availability; lacks remaster for other tables |
| Pinball Wicked | product | Digital pinball title in development limbo; described as 'dead' with 'nothing happening' per Jared |
| Alice Goes to Wonderland | product | Wonderland Amusements pinball game; scheduled for discussion in second half of Blockade episode; topic mentions '$1000 Pinball' in episode title |
| Aliens | product | Zen digital pinball table; Chris praises original score as 'Zen's masterpiece of an original' with atmospheric design; atmospheric score by Zen (not James Horner) |
| Twin Peaks | product | Television series referenced in opening conversation; Chris received 21-disc box set for birthday including all three seasons, Fire Walk with Me, deleted scenes; discussion of remaster quality and historical context |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Zen/AtGames Release Calendar Failure, Licensed Music Implementation in Digital Pinball, VR Pinball Effects Technical Analysis
- **Secondary:** Digital Pinball Game Updates and Balance, VR Implementation Critique (UX Design), Streaming and Copyright Music Concerns
- **Mentioned:** Retro Digital Pinball (Pro Pinball, Cabinet Modes)

### Sentiment

**Mixed** (0.55) — Hosts express frustration with AtGames/Zen calendar management and some VR UX decisions, but enthusiasm for licensed music additions, Xeno Tilt improvements, and VR Pinball Effects capabilities. Generally positive about Zen's effort to address community concerns and music licensing work, balanced against criticism of implementation details.

### Signals

- **[business_signal]** Pinball Wicked appears to be cancelled or indefinitely stalled; no active development updates available (confidence: medium) — Jared: 'At least they're still working on it, unlike Pinball Wicked. Oh, that's dead. I don't know what that's. Just dead. Nothing's happening with that game.'
- **[community_signal]** Zen demonstrating effort to address streaming community concerns through copyright music toggle options; allows streamers to disable licensed tracks to avoid copyright strikes (confidence: high) — Hosts discuss copyright music toggle allowing streamers to 'remove copyright music if you need to because it's annoying having strikes when you're streaming.'
- **[competitive_signal]** Pro Pinball Time Shock identified as having high wizard mode difficulty barrier; Big Race USA evaluated as more enjoyable gameplay despite Time Shock's visual polish (confidence: medium) — Hosts note Time Shock 'You will fight to get to the wizard mode on it. It's not easy' while Big Race USA considered 'more enjoyable' despite limited remaster support
- **[design_philosophy]** Virtual hand tracking implementation in VR Pinball Effects criticized as visually distracting; hosts suggest disembodied hands or opt-out when not interacting with objects; arms and hands obstruct playfield visibility (confidence: high) — Jared: 'I personally don't like it because the hands get in the way... if you're just sitting on a chair... I see the hands on the cabinet. It's a bit of a visual mismatch for me.'
- **[licensing_signal]** Zen successfully licensed John Williams orchestral music for Jurassic Park digital table; hosts speculate licensing costs were significant; implies potential for similar licensing on Back to the Future, Jaws, E.T. tables (confidence: high) — Jared: 'With that music playing, there's something about it... It does feel more immersive.' Hosts discuss licensing costs being substantial and wonder if Zen will license music for other classic Spielberg titles.
- **[market_signal]** Zen Studios positioning cosmetic unlocks via 'daily rewards' lottery wheel system with earned ticket currency; likely monetization strategy for free-to-play VR title; non-financial currency earned through gameplay (confidence: medium) — Jared: 'So there's like tickets... I think this ties into another thing... the campaign global... these will be cosmetics... tied into experience points.'
- **[product_strategy]** AtGames/Zen published release calendar was inaccurate; promised Star Wars tables through April did not materialize; Medieval Madness, Getaway, Junkyard released this week instead of September schedule (confidence: high) — Chris: 'We were supposed to be getting nothing but Star Wars tables for the first, you know, through April, I believe. We have not gotten Star Wars tables... We weren't supposed to be getting Medieval Madness, Getaway, and Junkyard until like September or something like that. That's what's coming out this week.'
- **[product_strategy]** Xeno Tilt received post-release scoring modifications increasing mini-game point values significantly; creates 'wizard mode' feel and replayability incentive (confidence: high) — Chris: 'they've done some modifications to how the game scores... now it's just the mini-games. That's where it's at.' Jared: 'getting to like a mini wizard mode in it.'
- **[technology_signal]** VR Pinball Effects demonstrates Meta Quest 3 color pass-through and Quest 2 grayscale pass-through capabilities; room-scale VR layout functionality; hand tracking support; represents significant VR pinball advancement (confidence: high) — Jared discusses pass-through capabilities: Quest 3 'color pass-through' vs Quest 2 'black and white pass-through' with 'grayscale' visual mode; room-scale warehouse layout capability

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## Transcript

 This is the BlahCade Pinball Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Frebus, a.k.a. Shut Your Trap. Joining me as always halfway across the world is Jared Morgan. Hey, everyone. How are you going? Doing well. It's been a hot minute again, Jared. We seem to have a lot of these hot minutes now in between shows. We do. I feel like we're on the same schedule that we used to be. Oh, my goodness. Sorry, I've been distracted by my wife doing a sad thing with her watch because I didn't advance the time like I'm supposed to. Oh, because daylight savings ended over there? Mm-hmm, yes. It's like a big, big, oh, my watch's no working. And then she goes, you don't love me. Well, obviously, if you didn't adjust her clock, what are you doing, Chris? Right? I'm clearly doing everything wrong. Yeah. No, what I was going to say is we're almost on the same schedule as when we first started this podcast. It would be these month-long gaps. Oh, these, like, mad months. Yeah. Okay, we can get together. Let's do it. And we had, like, eight people on the show. Well, I was going to say, and that's why. It was because we had eight people on the show. It was hard to get everybody's schedules coordinated when you had, like, four different time zones. Yeah. Oh, God, do I remember those days. That was bad. Our only excuse now is either a lack of content or me working on a weekend. So, yeah. Yeah. that's pretty much what it comes down to because we're not just going to do a show with junk in it because no one likes those when we have the stats to prove it so so I got a comment that I my birthday was a few weeks back and I got the Twin Peaks Z to A box set it's like 21 discs it is all three seasons of the show so the two that were on network the one that was on showtime a few years ago plus fire walk with me plus all of the deleted scenes from that which is like 90 minutes worth of stuff um it's a lot of massive massive and uh twin peaks is one of those shows that i've always said it was one of my favorite shows that being said watching it re-watching it i'm about just i just a few episodes into the second season it's very melodramatic and i think i think if you were a new to it person you'd be going really you all flipped your lids over this because they don't understand that at the time that it came out it was unlike anything else on television and if you didn't have twin peaks you wouldn't have x files and without x files you wouldn't have breaking bad and game of thrones and just your laundry list of everything else because it brought that sense of cinema and storytelling and long form and weirdness into the mix it made it acceptable to do that yeah yeah on tv the thing that i'm fighting really kind of it's hilarious and sad at the same time uh the transfer is gorgeous you know this show is shot on film and it does not it's made the jump nicely oh yeah it it does not betray its age in that respect at all except for in one instance so you got to understand back then your television was like what a 280i resolution yeah i think probably 480p at best what p 480p no not then not then that was standard definition That's a standard definition on a CRT. Oh, yeah. If you were rich, you had like a 24-inch television at that time. Yeah, that's right. Rear projection as well. There was people with rear projection at that time, but it was also still just that same resolution. So that being said, the poor focus pullers. At the time, when they pulled focus on the subject, and they would watch their dailies back on a CRT, it looked in focus. It looked great. Watching this on Blu-ray? Oh, yeah. Oh, man. I'm seeing the buzzes. I'm seeing where I'm like, focus, focus. You're focused on the collar, not on the nose. Oh, come on, pull it. Get it. And then you can see the actor lean. I'm like, oh, they hit their mark. Now they're in focus. And I'm just like, oh. Wow. So you actually get to see when they're off slightly, when they're off mark slightly. Because back then. You wouldn't have been able to tell. You would not have been able to tell. Would look perfectly in focus. Because the resolution on the, what you're saying, the dailies is where they're watching it back on a monitor. Yep. As you would if you were watching it as a viewer. Yes. Yeah, it would have been like. It's kind of like, I guess the best way to describe it would be, you have your video game players out there that want to play you know an n64 on a crt that the games look better than if you play them on a flat screen and lcd yeah because of that's what they were designed for that's how they hid and there's tricks that they were able to put in that were hidden to the eye until you throw it on a flat screen lcd and then it's like oh that trick is now fully exposed and doesn't look good. The cushion is removed. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So it's really just kind of been interesting going through it and watching that. And I'm watching all the behind-the-scenes stuff, and it's really fascinating. So if you were into Twin Peaks, it's $55 on Amazon. You can't go wrong. No, that's a little much, but a little wow. Literally everything. There you are. I guess at 21 discs, it's massive. So good times right there. That's a lot of discs. Let's talk a little bit on the pinball front. We'll dive right in with AtGames and Zen. The Zen calendar that AtGames put out is right and truly out the window. Right. So that one that we talked about a couple of shows ago that sort of laid out the year. Yeah. As far as releases went. Yeah, it's canned. Canned. Fiction. Absolute fiction. I didn't even realize that apparently it got pulled almost immediately. Oh, did it? Mm-hmm. And they haven't put up a calendar since. So they learned their lesson. Or they learned that they got pulled off. I feel like they might have gotten a phone call from Mel. Maybe. Certainly about the leak. Yeah, we were supposed to be getting nothing but Star Wars tables for the first, you know, through April, I believe. We have not gotten Star Wars tables. We've gotten Black Rose. We've gotten Party Zone. We weren't supposed to be getting Medieval Madness, Getaway, and Junkyard until, like, September or something like that. That's what's coming out this week. Wow, okay. Right? Yeah. Yeah, that calendar is... Maybe it amounts to more of a, here's the list of games that we'll be releasing this year, but in no particular order. Well, except for there was actual dates next to everything. So that's why it's really kind of strange. I wonder what happened. To me, it was very odd that they would jump right into Star Wars when Star Wars is such an obvious thing to put in a skin cabinet. Yes. Or, to time it better, around May, May the 4th, that's when you release that stuff. That would make sense. Yeah, it's kind of a bit of a head-scratcher, especially since everybody is really wanting Williams tables on this cab. Give the people what they want. Give them all the Williams tables. um zen did do a thing that hasn't made its way to the arcade or the arcade one up no wrong cabinet to the ad games cabinet um for jurassic park hey they got the music oh geez it doesn't sound good in the game it's like wow that was complete surprise that they went and did that yeah um i mean it honestly makes me wonder if they're going to get the back to the future music get the jaws music get the et music and be like there you happy don't complain about this crap anymore it would be amazing if they could pull it off it would it really would but i just have to wonder how how many millions of not billions of dollars but how many dollary bucks did they have to pay to do that well i i honestly think it is heaps but i feel like it's not a zen apology tour but i feel like they're going hey you know what we need to right the wrongs um the and it's not the wrongs that we committed it's the wrongs you all perceived us doing so that's the if you're on the switch you're getting your fx3 games um and they're because we've managed to broker that deal right uh yeah good luck of that happening on steam because apparently valve is being a bunch of dicks um pretty much uh we'll see it happen if it happens on the ps5 or not on xbox but um i mean obviously if they can get everyone one place i think it's i'm not sure well no fx3 was never on at the game store was it no no i don't think so no I don't know Anywho So they're doing that where they're committing Hey where we can we'll Do backwards compatibility I think the music thing Is a huge one That's massive Because I play them all I thought okay what are these like now With the new music And it's like okay They actually feel different Like they're the same game there's nothing different they have not done any code updates to anything but with that music playing there's something about it it it does feel i don't know more immersive feels different um and not only have they got just the main theme music but when you go into like modes like multiball you've got a different williams theme well john john williams theme as well um so they it's not just one piece of music it's a couple that they've got in there too so it's it's a yeah it's big it changes a lot but it does mean that the same music is in all games now as well which yeah i mean is it a bad thing i don't think it is here but it's sort of because i know that you can turn off you can switch between the original uh oh if you turn off copyrighted music in the menu, you can definitely select. So I know for myself, if I'm playing Jurassic Park, I want the Jurassic Park music. If I'm playing Jurassic World or Mayhem, Pinball Mayhem, I'm not... I don't mind that music that's in there. No, because they're like... They're derivative works. Those two. Well, Jurassic World is not a derivative work, obviously. It's actually a I was playing it the other day. It's not one of my favorite tables, right? But I played it and it's like, it really is like, it reminds me so much of like that Data East movie tie-in table. Right. That sort of feeling where it's like, yes, we are absolutely going to feature actors in it. I mean, this is not a diss by any means, but it does feel like that classic licensed Data East feel where they're going, yes, we have actor licenses and we're going to put those into the game and they're going to say stuff to you. And it really does. It has that vibe to it for me. And that's why if I was to pick one table to actually have the music there for, it's going to be Jurassic Park. And that way the other two don't feel like, oh, here's that music again. Because, honestly, that kind of gets on me with the Star Wars tables. Yeah, the same music over and over again. Yeah. And it really does. Music is something that sets the tone of the table, right? And now, it's okay on two or three tables, like in that Jurassic Park collection. yeah but when you when you're dealing with over 10 tables of what it's like 15 isn't it really um with star wars um that's too it's too samey like it doesn't give any um audio flavor to the tables and it really does feel like oh yeah it's it does feel like just another star wars table because of that music playing um i haven't actually tried those tables with the copyright music off i always just play it with the default on so what happens when you actually turn the copyright music off you just get no music i i have not tried it myself i've um it's supposed to revert back i i know that there's a way that you can still listen to the original version scores that zen had yeah so i think i imagine that's what's going to flip back to but are you talking about star wars start yes star wars not not um i've turned off the copyright music before and it's funny how bits of it still sneak in yeah but is it like just is it like that sort of i don't think there's any music no i think it's just no music i think it's just like you you either have the licensed music or you have none yeah that's it yeah so i mean it's good i mean that is a positive well it's kind of like what they did with night rider where you can choose the classic original or the you know all this all the 20 different copyright music which i look i always go with the the copyright music because it sounds great and i'm not streaming so it don't matter no exactly right but again it's it's good that they think of the impacts of streamers when they're looking at this sort of thing give you an option to remove copyright music if you need to because it's annoying having strikes when you're doing streaming. And so the fact that they want, they're actually thinking of people who want to do content on this. And that's been a feature for years, decades, really. I think it was even in FX3 as an option. So it's really good that they're thinking about that. But also, if you just don't want to hear it, it'd be good if you could set it per table, where it says, no, I don't want copyright music on this. like a um a dmd selection where you can have like film score or like original music so i imagine i once it comes to the app games cab i imagine i will be able to do just that because as it is right now i can turn on and off like pop-up scores individually per table oh okay it's not just a universal setting all right so that will be a flow on effect do you think yeah that'll be good that's what i imagine i think because i would i would turn it off for the other two i i don't care for the for the uh officially licensed music and those but you're right jurassic park really needs it yeah like it's it's it's not negotiable so here's here's hoping that they actually do uh uh go back to the future route get that and get Jaws I think Jaws is the one that I just needed oh they it's like it would changed it would change my view of that table at the moment it's a it just feels like a generic table yeah to me but having that theme play and all the other stings as well that are in there like get at least the the main stings and link them make them meaningful and that they're linked to modes like that you only hear them when a mode plays like that would make getting the modes and the immersion you get from that way more um i think interestingly enough for as much as an aliens fan that i am i like the music of that one even though it's not james horner's score um they've done a lovely job they've done a fantastic atmospheric yes i would say it's it's zen as far as i'm concerned zen's masterpiece of an original that i have like no notes it's perfect um it really is and the way that they've like the yes well yeah in short yeah no don't change a thing it's great yeah um i just really love the way that they've they've done the scenes from the film and how you interact with those in the game it's just it's very very good i noticed on steam because I've had it in my wish list forever, and I just always go, eh, I don't want to pull the trigger on it. They have pro pinball for 50% off right now, so I think it's $7.99. But I don't think there's a cabinet mode, and that will bother me. Is it just pro pinball time shock? I haven't actually looked. I don't know what the deal is. I'm sure Pinball Wiz is right now going, it's because, you know, he's been begging me. Yeah, he'll be screaming at us in the comments. He's been begging me to download and play this thing for years. And I'm almost just like, if you want me to get it so bad. How about you gift it, my friend? 50% off. Yeah, exactly. I'm such a mooch. So I think, look, I would leave Pro Pinball the web. on the table like just don't worry about the game it's not not that great um time shock there it's good there's there's a you you will fight to get to the wizard mode on it it's not easy um uh and i would really it's a shame that i didn't go back through and make remastered versions of the other two because the other two tables i think in my opinion are more enjoyable like big race usa is a really fun game. And I can't recall what the other one was, but I do recall playing it on Android when they released it on Android. And it was fun. Like, Time Shock is pretty. But I think Big Race USA is just... It's a better game. But I don't think they've done a remaster of that. I think it's probably only been in Time Shock. um yeah all right let's uh let's move forward a little bit here uh for those who noticed what oh before you continue i did notice and you've been playing the zenith um on i would presume cabinet and i would presume on pc cabinet is that how you've been doing it well i've been playing it on the ad games yeah uh but yeah because they don't because they haven't released a um like uh like an on-device version of that have they no and i really wish they would but i don't think it's going to happen it's a shame it's a missed opportunity because it because you have told me and i've seen it it's it's amazing in tape mode um and they do the thing is they have a tape mode in the game and it works really really well um so yeah i i saw that you had a pretty high score on there was like 1.4 billion i think i went yeah something really high and then i got onto it and doubled it so i i've they've done some modifications to how the game scores because getting that score before was a battle and now it's just the mini games is where it's at yes that's exactly it's with Well, if you can get in the minigame and score a great score in the minigame, bam, it just skyrockets. Oh, man, your score goes through the roof, which is very different to Demon's Tale, where the minigames don't really feel like they give you too many points. But, geez, you get into those as minigames. Yeah, because I was playing the pool table, if you will. Yeah. And I cleared the board there. I was on one of the mini, because there's that, there's two different uh small pinball tables and i was just racking up points on one of those too yeah just going off um so by the time i got back into the game proper yeah my score was just like i'm sorry what is that and what's my combo bonus right now juice he's like how did i do this don't know don't care you know i tell you just like that experience of going into a mini game and coming out with a massive amount of points makes you go, okay, I need to do that again. I would like to experience that again. And if I've done it once, I can do it again, right? And I want to see how far I can go with it. So it makes... It's a really... I like the fact that they've really doubled down on getting the mini games as a high-scoring opportunity because it sort of makes it feel like you're getting to like a mini Wizard mode in it. um like it's great i i love what they've done with it it's so good if you're if you're sleeping on xeno tilt folks don't get it because it's a really really good game um and if you really really like xeno tilt and demons tilt uh get on their designers and be like hey you guys should talk to chris and jared and uh also you should put out a dedicated cabinet mode yeah um yeah all those things all those things because the part that really this is this is this is where why i want a cabinet mode so much a i just want that image up on the back glass that is their cover image because it's fantastic i want that prominently displayed i also want the i don't need them to rearrange the dmd or create a dmd or anything just take the info that's on the right and left-hand sides of the play field and just move it up into the DMD because it's distracting. And there's so much distraction already on the machine. I would love that just out of the way. I don't need to see it. It's up on the back because you can turn it off. But then you're like, well, what is my score? I don't know. So that's where it's like, just let us move it to a second screen and then we can see it up there on the second screen, but our play field will be nice and clear. Yeah, exactly. it would just add that little bit of extra pizzazz to what is a pretty incredible game already yeah yeah yeah i would agree at least they're still working on it unlike uh pinball wicked oh that's dead i don't know what that's just dead nothing's happening with that game um what was i gonna go oh yeah that's what i was gonna say hey for those of you that are waiting for us to talk about uh wonderland amusements uh alice into wonderland is that what it is or what alice goes to wonderland alice goes well yes we'll get to that that's going to be backside of the show first though zen went ahead and dropped a full video about their vr pin effects vr uh which we have been waiting for and anticipating um jared mostly yes I definitely have been so we going to uh we gonna i guess you could call it a react to the video you won hear any audio folks i never been able to figure out how to get the audio to play on here um it doesn't really matter because it doesn't matter like that in this case that the audio doesn't really add anything to this right discussion uh jared however is going to have me uh start and stop this thing so that's what we're gonna do let's see you know should i let's go ahead and uh you know you could probably just delete us okay yeah oh wait make us go away but also don't even bother playing it yet because oh i've got some i've got some comments on this right now you could probably save yourself just the screen yeah just just just the screen okay um so this is literally when you play the video as chris has got up here this is the first thing you see um so you'll see a number of things from the scene you see that there's um the virtual hand picking up the cassettes um and that's well that clearly means that rather than just using controllers in vr you can actually interact with things physically. Well, when I say physically, it's like maybe hand tracking is supported in this where you can pick up an object and then interact with the other objects in the room. Certainly the little dots, see the little dots above the hand? They're like hot zones, I guess, where you can go and touch. Yeah, that's right. See how they move when you sort of cycle through. So that's pretty much confirming, I think, that we're going to have hand-tracking support in the game, which backs up the fact that this is releasing on Meta exclusively. It's not going to be on any PC VR or PlayStation VR. For the moment. For the moment. Certainly on release, it's not. And so it's using all of Meta's current hand tracking and pass-through capabilities. Jared, do you think these cassettes mean anything? Because there's a cassette that's Pinball M. There's the Pinball FX cassette. Yeah. There's the Chip FX. I don't know what that is. Chip FX. So I think you're going to see... I'm thinking like chip effects might be NecroDancer or any of those games that have like chip tunes in them. That'll be the compilation of those background sounds. But like the big thing here is you've got a Pinball M soundtrack in there, Chris. Does that mean... That's how you play Pinball M perhaps? I think it's more about the sounds and soundtracks from Pinball M. I was thinking that this is how they're going to delineate... Oh, libraries. The libraries. Ah. Well, okay. Then Zen Pinball Party, then, which is the one top right, what would they be offering in that? Would that be the... DreamWorks and... Maybe. Trolls and, you know... I don't know. I don't know. That's why I was just spitballing, just in the sand. Yeah, interesting. Let's advance a little bit. Yeah, just a little bit. So you're putting the cassette in, and then you play. Now, pause it here. Okay, that's actually the perfect point to pause it at. So when I was looking at this video, this one here, when it cuts to... Pinball Noir. Pinball Noir. you also see the hand tracking very similar to what it was like in Star Wars Pinball VR where you had essentially hands on cabinets so I personally don't like it because the hands get in the way and it would be different if you were leaning up against something like a pin sim or something like that and you were able to map your hand position to the pin sim yeah that would be great but otherwise if you're just sitting on a chair which is like so i usually play pinball seated because there's no reason to stand up and play it so i'm sitting on the couch i have my hands in my lap on a on the controllers and and then i see the hands on the cabinet it's a bit of a visual mismatch for me like it it doesn't really marry up to what i'm seeing in the actual um headset so i think turning off virtual hands unless you are interacting with objects um would be good and i think if you're doing that just make it so they're like disembodied hands so you don't have the arms and you don't have all that stuff you don't need it okay so here's a question that i haven't i've not really researched into this much um but i believe i heard initially that it's going to only be controller that you're not going to be able to use you know when an xbox controller or some other that it's only going to be the actual virtual control the actual virtual controllers have you heard that too i haven't heard that but i think that tracks based on some of the um the tells later on in the video okay um so my points were with this one like when you see that come up on screen yet hopefully we can turn those off um and if you advance the video a little bit further you'll see it goes to um sky pirates um all right pause it there scrub back a little bit there we go yeah that's great so look we've got a very similar feel to Star Wars VR where you've got characters standing in front of the camera so you can see them doing things. You'll notice that the actual presentation of the video screen is full size like not shrunk to fit inside Little Marquis it is the entire speaker panels width and I love that. I love that they've gone all the way with that and treating it like a stern video screen right um i think that's a really smart decision for these tables that have um video screens and i hope that for the legacy tables that have dmd still that they do exactly that they go dmd large and they put it there and it's the same size um to make it really really visible when you're really glanceable when you're looking at it i i really love that i hope that for like um well let's just say for uh dr dude which was that bally with the score at the all across the bottom in one row i hope we get that i hope that oh yes uh for space station that we get the individual score blocks where they are same thing with Brad a pin bot yeah 100% I would love to see those accurate back glasses yes it would just make a world of difference it would okay all right so you see old mate Captain Morgan is that his name I have no idea I really don't like this one no and you know the thing that if you just play it a little bit more no it goes there was like a shot of of that annoying thing at which I think they call the monkey oh hold on I got this that thing flying around the table oh thank you yeah play it from there oh get away the monkey if that thing starts flying in front of my vision when I'm playing pinball I'm going to be like angry that thing even in flat even in flat mode on this table that thing obscures shots when you want to take it seems to have an innate ability to get in your way on that table and I just hate it. So that thing can just buzz right off. Literally. Okay, so this thing. Lucky wheel thingy is how I refer to it in my notes. Is it randomizer? This is what I reckon is going on here. So it looks like it's like a daily rewards thing. And you can see that there's like tickets. I don't know if that is your ticket balance or whether that is the cost per spin. But you can definitely see that there's some sort of earned thing for like tickets there. And I think this ties into another thing that they talk about or that they show later on, which is the campaign global. We'll get to that in a minute. So have a look at the things that you're seeing on the wheel. So at the moment, it's a... Again, these are probably placeholder images here, but you see that there's like Sky Pirates, so you've got ball, you've got something with like a comet ball, you've got flipper, you've got like some random symbols. I have a feeling that these will be cosmetics. So these will be cosmetic unlocks, and that's how they're going to do cosmetic unlocks in the game. What are the other notes I have here? yeah it looks like it's like a cost per spin and it'll be some sort of like non-non-financial currency it'll be like an earned reward currency in the game of tickets I don't see any reason why they would charge you for it they should just tie that into experience points I think really yeah and that there's definitely a bit later on in the video with campaign mode that I think definitely ties into that. We can link this concept back to that, I think. But have a look at the, just to the left of the wheel, a nice little cabinet shot of Adam's family there. Just sitting there, waiting to play. It looks good. They've got the side art on it, which is great. So it's like the render that you see in pinball effects as you do the table flyover. So that's great. Okay. Okay, let's... We're 11 seconds in. Yeah, this is 11. This is what I've been able to gather from 11 seconds, right? So, yeah. Put your collectibles where you want them. That will... Hold on. Go back. Because that is inside of Zen Studios doing a little AR of the machines. Yep. So that's Zen's mocap room because you can see the motion capture cameras on the wall. So, yeah. That is pass-through VR as confirmed. so um this will be using as you can see this will be um demonstrating what it looks like on quest three with color pass-through um i don't know what they're going to be doing with quest two and it's black and white pass-through um but you'll just live in a noir world that's it it will be grayscale and all the things will pop out more which is it will be interesting to see like when you're placing all the things like the posters on the wall and the games in your room so my notes about the the whole vr pass-through thing is it's like i think that the game at the moment on the metastore is linked as room scale vr so if you have a warehouse you could particularly you could basically lay out a warehouse with all the games that they're going to be releasing in this title laid out for you to walk up and interact with. If you've got an apartment, good luck. If you've got an apartment, maybe you've got a three-pinball wall. You've got a pinball machine on top of your bed. Yeah, maybe. So, you know, it's really interesting to see the fact that, you know, you can put as many games as you own in a space. Yeah. um and i think that's really cool yeah like uh it's it's i'm really hopeful for this feature um to see what it's like see what else we got going on here pure 80s right there oh yeah all right pause okay so here you i think the so this is my comments on this like it is again if you've got a warehouse um that you can walk around this entire space physically yeah and actually have that experience i mean it will be a bit weird going up and down the stairs um because everything's not flat but just take a look at um the left of the pillar there you've got a room that has more games sort of tantalizingly stuck in that room and i think this is a bit of a tip on how they're going to do categories in the game so you've got uh separate rooms that have um like let's say williams pinball in it star wars all that they're going to be in separate rooms so they can actually have almost like mini man caves yeah the proper theming that goes along with it yeah so the proper as i referred to it in a previous episode bespoke experience for the license holders. So it's a really, I think it's a really interesting way. Do you see to the right, there is a, call it a video screen, that says Addams Family on it, and some arrows down at the bottom. Do you think that that's, it's not that you're physically going to be, you know, guiding your controller to walk up to the table, but instead selecting an arrow left or right, and then that'll automatically walk you to it. I'm trying to see the arrows that you're referring to here. Or like... So it's underneath that exclamation point bit of neon? Oh, yeah, I see. No, that looks like some sort of... Yeah, I don't... It looks like a hologram of sorts that's saying, hey, Adam's family is up here. Although it's not Adam's family up there, it's Twilight Zone up there. I think, well, I think it's one of those Think of it like the new game ticker When you start up Pinball FX It's got that little banner thing I think that's how they're going to be representing news and updates And things like that in the game It'll be there Alright, let's scrub through a little bit more Alright, pause that If you scrub back, you'll see You've got two archers And you've got Williams, Pinball, Clearly Oh, in Universal and the other. So you'll see there's two separate game rooms. And you can already see in the Universal ones, they've got like the statue from Battlestar Galactica in there, a lot of things. It's like the sculpture. And, you know, you've got that Williams theme. Now, I'm really interested to see when you go into the Williams room, will they be putting the new carpet and new environment in that room? Because I would hope they would. since they've actually put it into the pinball effects game yeah i would expect to see it when you walk in there but this pretty much confirms that they're going to be using rooms to to align the brands yeah um so you'll be exploring the rooms the thing i would like to point out here though is i would like from a usability perspective once you've been wowed by the fact that these rooms are there i'd like a really quick way to select table groups very much like a flat mode i just want to have categories after i've gone through the wow factor of it just give me category so i can get to the game i want yeah um that would be a good usability ad if they haven't already thought of that all right three tables so we know that there's going to be sky pirates noir and curse the mummy in there oh curse the mummy looks good in in vr so here we are there's a little bit of a tease of um uh what it looks like and again this looks almost like a a nook and i just love the fact that lower lower right hand corner they've even got the power cord they've even thought of putting the power cord in there as like it's just there's a lot of detail in this they really put a lot of care into the environment so this to me i was a little bit confused when i first watched the video because i thought oh they got game nooks a little bit like pinball m you know how they have like the the game area where things go around it but i don't really think that's true i think when you walk up to the game and you start playing it the environmental stuff gets superimposed around it but the game still stays in the position that you've placed it see when you're walking out nothing yeah then once you start playing it it'll create around it it'll put the environmentals in yeah yeah i think that's how it's going to work makes sense um so if we advance forward more um we've got your noir we got a mummy that looks really good now pause there well i was going to go so here's the room's room we're in the we're in the room so having a glimpse through the door um so it looks like you've got you know um a wall with it doesn't look like there's a lot of williams branding in there yet but i'd say these are very early shots of the of the trailer i would expect it would not surprise me at all to see that this room gets heavily themed closer to the April 1st release. And we're recording this today on March 16th. So that's not far away. April 1st is when they're... Which I think is the funniest date to actually put that out. So look at that likeness of Indiana Jones there. The full-ended camera is just... Just not quite... Just not quite... the person you would expect to see standing in front of you there, but close enough. Pretty good though. Pretty good render. So that's pretty cool. So again, this, I cannot wait to play Williams tables. This looks great. Look at this. Tunnels wrapped in like, you know, the car's going to be jumping over the table. I'm really looking forward to playing Knight Rider in VR. It's going to look amazing. Very, I'm getting very similar vibes to what they've done with Banzai Run and the fact that the rider jumps up and around and controls the transition from lower to upper playfield. I'm getting those vibes from Knight Rider there. It looks really good. Xena is going to be a table I think I might actually find my love for this table in VR. I told you, I understand it now that I'm playing in Cabinet. Yeah. I think I really need to see this in non-flat mode to really get it. And look at this. Look at that. The BSG thing, the Cylon. That looks so cool. And Star Trek looks great. Asteroids about. Yeah. Wooshka. See you later. And, oh, wow. That's distracting. That's really distracting. So here's the, I wasn't going to put this in my notes, but since you brought it up. so one of the things if you're playing competitive pinball right that the rule is no one is ever on pain of death to stand in front of you in your vision when you're playing pinball because there's a whole distraction element and you can actually like you actually get banned from tournaments so having a hand run across the uh top of the playfield that would be well that's one thing but like having a character there and i've seen some of the ways the characters in this sizzle wheel here interact with the game it's like they're invasive over the top of the game yeah so i am already predicting that people go can we just turn them off can we not i know you love you you're interactive characters in it can we just turn these off please hey zen you see those thing lights that uh are visible underneath the dmd can we have those put back into the game please thank you uh yeah that'd be great uh that'd be great actually uh yeah so and look at that World Cup sock again how big do you want your dog? he's Louise far out, that is a large papa and his snoot is like look at the size of that like oh boy like that is a in your face yeah and here we have Robbie the Robot looking good by the way but again look this is what I'm talking about like he's very close to the table there alright so here we are I know you're advancing fast, but this is where I think we're going to see the time between that lucky wheel and the campaign. So have a look at the stars. So the stars here indicate that there are 210 achievements in the game that you have to work your way through. and it looks like when you unlock certain things and there's like, if you see down there, you see that there's like six categories of, I guess, buffs in the game. And we are talking, I mean, there's more numbers than achievements in there. Each one is 99, 99, 99. But I think the idea behind that is you will get, I don't know, like from zero to 99% maybe on those. and you might get like 10 per game or per area if you go further a bit more um right so pause here you'll see that they've gone with an interesting aesthetic here so they have like the world view and then you dive into city and this is like the secrets and shadows mode here and i don't know about you chris but i'm getting very much streets of rage um city city overview mode um vibes from this and i'm actually perfectly okay with that local gangs have taken over the pinball hall you need to defeat them and reclaim your territory absolutely getting those vibes for this and i'm i'm all for it i think it's great so you'll see that the stars relate to unlocks um in that and i think maybe there might be some times to get here as well i'm just not certain i think these ones are focusing on these i think very much like the um quest lines in fx i think they're using a lot of borrowed information from that and have a look at those little things that are above each of those icons uh above each of the table things you've got what looks like a on noir you got what i'm assuming would be like a flips challenge probably you've got over mummy you've got a timer challenge that'll be like five minute challenge mummy will be the multiple mayhem challenges that you see in there so single single ball maybe yeah oh yeah probably yeah single ball um and um i think so we're going to be seeing like game modes represented like that on those tiles i think um and you'll see that there's like three star completion so you'll have three levels and i like that too because it means that if you're just learning pinball you're not gonna feel like you need to complete all three stars yeah immediately to get progression in the game. I really like that. That's really good. Okay. All right, mixed reality mode. This is a bit more of a view of what you can do. Now, if you just scrub back slightly to see that table in the room. Yeah, see that? So I think that... I don't know whether that's a virtual table or whether that's an actual table because there's a glass on there. It looks like you can... If you have a set, like, in your lounge room and your stuff isn't moving around in your lounge room and you map your VR space to your lounge room, you can put virtual objects on your coffee table if you want. And that can be an actual physical interactive space there. And I think that's really cool. So, yeah, it looks like you can put a whole bunch of stuff everywhere in there. And this thing, like, darts. Darts. again and have a look 30 see the 030 on there that's maybe well that could be a ticket i think that the tickets oh no you right it probably a timer i think that probably a timer but i think you will definitely get tickets from these so i think you probably get an allocation of tickets per day but if you want to boost what you can unlock in the spinny wheel you can go and play minigames. So this is like the sizzle wheel trailer, but the Pinball Bites episode did touch on there's going to be lots of these minigames scattered around the arcade room. So I think this is interesting. It's going to be interesting to play darts virtually. So we'll see how that goes. All right, so you can see here that it's got the classic way of selecting items with the pointy controller. So that's just really table strikes with how you interact. So there's a lot. There's a lot in that video. Even though it was a really short sizzle reel, there's a lot that you can pick out of that video and a lot of cool stuff to come. So like we touched on before, Chris, it was like, so you're only going to be on MetaQuest initially. There's no announcement yet of VR on PC or any of the other platforms. It does seem, unfortunately, that at this stage, unless you're willing to gamble on it coming to SteamVR, you are going to have to rebuy everything on this platform. and uh i don't know about how people are going to feel about that uh the game's 10 bucks us to buy and you get three games for that which is uh the three secrets and shadows tables um so it's gonna be the same pricing i think is what's on uh ad games so it's gonna be five or ten dollars a table depending on the license um i would almost guarantee you indiana jones is going to cost 15 oh yeah for sure and i think it'll be probably world cup soccer will be a little bit more as well like the yeah i think so yeah so i think you know if we're looking at the catalog there you've got so indy jones will be let's call it 50 what is it like well i'm talking about aussie prices like 15 then twilight zone world cup soccer adam's family star trek tng those ones are all going to be like that $9.99 price point. So that's like $10, $20, $30, $40, $55. And then you've got the Universal TV, so Knight Rider BSG Xenon, that's a pack. That'll be $15. Yeah, $15. So you're probably looking at, if you want everything on launch, you probably need to put aside about, you know, 70 or 80 bucks to get everything on launch and have the full experience so you know that's a big that's a big chunk of change but when you look at it there's some you know triple a titles that release for a hundred dollars when you buy them um when they come out so you can go well okay you know if i want the the full experience and i think that actually close to I'd like to say the pinball VR classics table roster size maybe a little bit less yeah so there's where my only concern is I don't I wish they would make a bigger announcement about this apparently it got pointed out on a reddit thread that I guess Mel posted in that yes the intention is to bring over everything into this but I don't like the fact that you're going to you know are they going to delay all those tables that are in Pinball FX VR 2 because they're already in VR or are they going to hurry up and bring them over because they've already been basically all the VR-ness is already there I want what's in VR right now into this as soon as possible so get the Star Wars tables in there get those classics from FX2 in there just get all the vr in one environment so we don't have to open up three different apps in order to play this yes and then start adding in all the other library and you know there is look this is because i'm not a developer but i know that well we all know that star wars vr is ue4 unreal engine 4 so it's not like they're gonna have to take pinball classics re-engineer them for unreal engine 4 and then make them available just get just you know simply get the code and pull it out and put it into this new platform yeah i know it's not as easy as that but but that would also buy you time while you're converting these other the rest the rest into vr um give you a runway and start doing a release schedule do two releases a month yep it could be a single table i don't care but show that there's a cadence show that you're going to continue to support this for a good long while i mean we if we can see that runway of and this is again i'm looking specifically at what is happening with app games and what zen is doing there there is a runway for an entire year of content that makes you like feel good about your purchase I myself as somebody that invest in my phone as somebody who has not yet purchased a headset my big thing about not wanting to purchase a headset look I've got the rest I'm not playing on the rest no it's not going to be a fun time for you no no it's too difficult with no it's a nightmare um so a I'm going to be invested in the headset okay so bam there's $500. I don't want to invest $500 to find out that you're only going to be releasing 20 games and that's it. That would be not good. Give me assurances that if I buy into this platform, if I buy yet again another cost of entry, what am I going to get from my investment? like you know do i do i buy things on um that seem still to get them day of release are they going to be done in lockstep so are we going to have the vr version of the table available in the platform when we get the new thing in the um in the uh pinball fx platform i would certainly hope so otherwise the the vr thing becomes second class and it's still all about consoles so i mean that adds like production impacts to it like they have to do the vr stuff as well but i'm hopeful that that's how they do it because they like i think starting from a uh a certain point in the year i think that's what the intention is with um at games as well isn't it they're going to be looking at doing day date releases with the the mothership platform in at games so i would expect that to be as as close as possible because you know all these different ecosystems have different release schedules and cadences but you know within plus minus two weeks or whatever that they go out as soon as they possibly can with the release schedules that those platforms have you know otherwise it's like well where do i spend my money you know i i i have to make a choice as a consumer there i i shouldn't need to i should be able to go that content's out i want to buy it now so speaking of spending money um we'll talk about the headset purchase after we talk about our other main story um because i want to get to that so yeah you may have heard of a alice in wonderland table from dutch pinball that's in development it's got some really incredible art and then all of a sudden i start hearing about this alice goes to wonderland and the art i'm seeing is not the same and i was like wait what what is this interesting um yeah turns out that uh there's a company called Wonderland Amusement. They are headed up by former members of the Arcade One-Up team. And they have a Kickstarter going on that actually is active right now. It was fully funded in two minutes. Which is a pretty well... Excuse me. I've got the old tickle in the throat as usual. Ah, yes, righto. Yes. Yeah, so they got the Kickstarter going on and they're doing Their whole goal is to have a pinball machine that is under $1,000, but an actual physical, real ball, real play field pinball machine that you can own in your house. And that kind of kicked my interest. I was, well, wow, how are you being able to undercut the price by so much? Yeah. Yeah. So let's dive in a little bit to their Kickstarter and see what we can glean from this thing. Bring up that screen here, and I think we can bring us back up into the picture now, because we're not going to be cutting anything off. there we go all right so uh basically there's a little glance at what your cabinet art looks like it's a fun little and uh drawing style they got going on there you can see a little bit of the play field what's going on there um i'm gonna say like from a like like imagining this in your house perspective that's a pretty nice looking object yeah displaying your house it looks really good right there's your team members yes their first pinball about the fact they've been like really into you know um toy production so this is around um not just like a one-up but the the lead is actually a like an ex toy producer yeah um i wondered if this was i looked at that cabin i went so did they take a whole bunch of old arcade one-up cabinets and just convert it no the sizes are different so okay i already checked it does very much look like it does though doesn't it um yeah i'm just trying to get to uh ah here we go here's your uh your layout now this is a 3d render this isn't the actual table but it's a fan layout right it's a basic fan layout two ramps uh some pop bumpers a spinner captive ball yeah and and my gut reaction when i saw this was there's nothing that i'm like oh i want to see what happens when the ball goes there yeah it's all like very very vanilla and also very uh cheap to implement features and that's kind of that kind of sucks because you want to walk up to a table and immediately go oh i want to see what happens when this goes there yeah right and this is very basic uh this is very much like a um you know an 80s early solid state but with ramps yeah that's that's that's what this is i mean that's not really a critique that's just a fact yeah like the you know um it talks about what all those lanes are basically each lane is a shoot it three times and you've completed that mode kind of thing yeah yeah so it's not the deepest of uh rules that you're going to have going on there um i did like this this is their animation that's going to be on the dmd or an example of it um congratulations you've already done a better job than anything that magic pixel has done yeah it looks it looks really good yeah no that's that's that's pretty strong i like that Um, here's an example of the ball going down. And if you watch the YouTube video of the, uh, of their, uh, designer playing, you'll see that the, that ball just hauls butt down there. There's no pause. There's no time. Um, so again, it, it's like, there's no time to appreciate the ball rolling on the thing. It's just an immediate return. Yeah. That's, that's slowed down. Like you can see the lights blinking slowly. So yeah, it flies down there. um some things you got there you gotta i like how it's like light up queen talks no a light goes behind the queen and then the voice of the queen happens it's not animated or anything no no um these are all kind of flat the mad hatter i believe is a cardboard flat piece because they're selling a 3d version yeah they got like a later yeah that's right So there's advanced versions of all these toys, essentially. Does have multiball. Yeah, which surprised me. I went, wow, okay, they've managed to put multiball in this thing? Interesting. If you look at that video, though, that's playing there, it's kind of interesting. There's not a lot of GI lights going on there. Those inlanes are just a solid, I don't know if it's going to be aluminum or plastic. Yeah, this is definitely a prototype for you. Yes, this is definitely a prototype. No doubt about that. So it's hard to say what is going on. But if you look at the prototype video, there is no light show. It's just lights are either blinking or they're solid lit. Don't expect some amazing light show that's going on. We'll talk about kind of the parts used in a moment that might also be an indicator of why that is. Yeah, exactly. You've got your various reward tiers. Okay, so first off, ignore the $7.99 price. That one's gone. Yeah. You have the $8.49 price. That one, I don't know if there's a limited amount, but that is for the Kickstarter. But that's your 15% savings. So without the 15% savings, you're looking at, I think it's like $975 or something like that. So it's pretty much a grand. It's going to be just under a grand, right? Mm-hmm. Um, I love this. Why, why have one when you can have two? Yeah. I mean, sure. Like if there was a linked mode, right. It's like, now that's a good idea. Like give me two of them. Like, you know, and yeah, yeah, that'd be really cool. And then there's the two grand version. Oh, double 1899. That is a big, Now, you get bronze, you get a cool shooter, you get the 3D head, you get a 3D Cheshire Cat, and you get a cover for your entire machine. And a topper. And a topper. Okay. Folks, can we stop with the lame toppers? Not everything needs a topper. All it's going to have is some blinky lights. How's that cover going to go on that topper? That's what I want to know. It's not. no it's it's definitely not so that i don't know how they're going to do that anyhow that's a and i say this i say this also to stern you just because i don't know the ridiculous prices asked for some of these toppers that i'm like going what does that even do now it's like two grand for some of these the topper that is on um uh evil dead fantastic yeah that's that's appropriate the toppers that are on the the labyrinth looks that's great now that i'm seeing i'm seeing the value for the price some of these other things i'm like my god how much would you have charged for the whitewater topper yeah you know like i've seen like another good example of toppers that add value is like the the pulp fiction topper right like that is that is so cool i've seen that in person and it looks great um yeah so dust cover adding up the cost of these extra things you can buy separately if you wish uh-huh like and like look it's like 100 and like what we're talking about here like the top is 149 let's add let's add the price okay go for it dude let's do some that let's do some maths so we've got 49 129 so that's what 170 ish so yeah 170 um and then you've got another $149. That is not worth $150. I'm sorry. That's just a first specs with a artwork on it and a light behind it. No, that is not worth $150. So what does that bring up to? That's $300. $300. And then you don't forget about so there's $300 and now you've got to figure out what the price of all the brass is and these playing cards that you get um and the playing cards are 20 bucks as a award to you oh you'll get a limited edition certificate of authenticity and a number and signed collector's plaque that also does not matter uh not for that much extra that is not good value for money i'm sorry no that is no oh sorry and probably you i guess you have to factor in it'll all be installed for you when you unbox it so you don't have to do it yourself. It's coming in, the topper will be separate, the legs will be separate. I don't want that, that's fine. Size-wise, it is more or less the same size as the AtGames cabinet. I took a measurement, it's like an inch here, an inch there difference. They're both the same width, which is 18 inches wide. But like the AtGames back glass or backbox is 25 inches wide and 25 inches high um so there's a difference the at games cabinet is i think an inch shorter than this so i mean there's more or less if you wanted a sense of scale that's what the the sense of scale is there um the play field they're saying just the playfield, 37 by 18. So if you're wondering what that looks like in real-world terms, I have a demonstration here. I'm finally putting it to use, Jared. Yeah, oh, look, it's firepower. So I taped out the green areas. What's taped is not what is going to be in that playfield. So what you see is a regular playfield. That's how big the actual playfield will be. Yeah. So essentially they, they cut off basically the ball shooter lane and a bit of the side. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Right. So yeah. Hey, does anybody want to, want to, want to paint this for me? No, no, no. I would buy a, want to paint the, uh, you can see up here in my, uh, my decals. Oh, guys, sorry to work in your room. Um, have, I've already started. Oh, that one just came up. So, all right. No, I think I'll hard pass and just buy a hard top for that one, Chris. Sorry. That's what I want to do with that. I would not want to touch up that planet. Not it. Please. Not it. So this is the interesting thing. They went with a smaller ball. They did. Now, I got to believe this would kind of help the issue with Safecracker, which is full-size ball on a small play field. Therefore, you had to have smaller flippers. Whereas by going with a smaller ball, that's going to scale everything accordingly. yeah but the thing is that with safecracker they already were an established business with established molds and established everything um and they they had to operate within the constraints of their tooling yeah whereas these guys nothing is commercial off the shelf no so there is an there is your play field right there yep and this again is a render as you can see but yeah there is nothing that you can buy from pinball life or any of the companies out there that you can use to replace parts on this thing you have to go through these guys to get your parts and as Jared and I can tell you pinball machines break frequently all the time you know what are they using for lighting is it bulbs or are they going to just have their own custom led uh they will be custom that'll be very much like the obstacles that's what i'm thinking um yeah if anything breaks on this thing you gotta go through you gotta go back to them that includes your rubber priced that's going to include your rubber oh wow i didn't even think of that but you're right um like that's galed down so wow okay yeah and now they said interesting they'll have all the replacing parts ready day one but that's oh yeah a little film core model and then just their their people so i want to look my my gut reaction upon seeing this is not for me right but no who's it for and my immediate thought went to that stern jurassic park home edition that i saw at costco oh yeah it's for the customer that wants to play pinball doesn't really care about it they're not doing it as a collector they're doing it to have a physical machine in the house that the kids can slam away on exactly yeah they basically want a one-up arcade oh sorry an arcade one-up experience but a physical real thing yeah that's what they want yeah yeah um for and for that purpose with your price point being under a thousand dollars i applaud that because that i don't know how they've done it honestly no like my my question is okay so the kickstarter is one thing oh i do have some answers to that actually okay good well we can touch on that but i will say this is that like i don't know how they have managed to do i I mean, what is the cost of an arcade one-up digital pinball now? What, $500? Here's what I found. I don't want your answer to that. Yes, they were initially supposed to be $500. And then remember, they launched right before the shutdown happened. And all of a sudden, and demand was massive. And then arcade one-up went, hey, let's jack that price up to $750. Yeah. So, I mean, curiously, that the launch of this, and yes, they are sourcing, it's China that they're sourcing a lot of parts from, right? And, hey, guess who the U.S. just slapped massive tariffs against? Oh, yeah. Timing is great again, guys. Yeah, well, this is going to be fun. So, what's that 20% on top of this at the moment? Well, here's where I'm – that price does not include shipping. Right. So – And it's – before you get too excited, rest of the world, this is only U.S. North America. It's North America. It's Mexico, Canada, U.S. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. But don't expect to – You didn't surprise me in the slightest. No, no. But there's where I'm saying – okay, so maybe they leave the price as is, but your shipping cost is going to that's where your tariff gets slapped on it i don't know that the only lever they have to use here you know uh but that was my point with the stern pinball it even after i played it i was like this thing not deep that jurassic park it not deep yeah it a casual walk up anybody can slap it around and feel good about doing it but it's not somebody that's going to be hammering on it for months and months learning all the ins and outs you're going to learn the ins and outs of this thing within a couple of weeks yeah if that and that's with the stern one with this one you know it's going to be the look they say it again i mean it's wi-fi enabled so they're going to be pushing code updates to it which i think is pretty pretty cool that they can do that um so they might be able to use the layout and i'm thinking potentially put in different play modes like maybe five minute challenge maybe one ball mode like actually take some cues from zen here and actually put some different game modes with different leaderboards because the the the lockdown sorry not the lockdown the coin door does appear to have some sort of navigation it's got a d-pad so you know that would suggest that you don't just walk up play it it's and and that's it i think there's going to be some sort of well there's going to be some sort of menuing system in it by listening so you can diagnose and test and all that sort of stuff so that's obviously how they're going to be navigating that but i would think that after the initial launch there's going to be different game modes that they're going to put into to keep it fresh i think if they're not thinking about that now they need to because that will make you want to keep coming back and experiencing the game in different modes like you know multiball mode like a three-minute multiball mode i'm just i'm just nicking all the ideas from zen here basically yeah um because they're fun like these challenge modes are actually really fun to play on a game so um but i mean it is definitely you know the the cost of entry it's is expensive yes but again it's not as expensive as a real as five grand no for a stern one like if i had to go well you know i want a pinball machine in my home i don't really i'm not brand loyal um this is a pinball machine uh and if i was Not with the knowledge I have about pinballs, but if I was a consumer and I was looking dollar for dollar, well, a fifth of the price, sign me up. Okay, so. I don't get it. Materials. Playfield is three-quarter inch ply. Which is not. No, that's standard. That's standard width. Well, I'm looking good. Yeah, that's three-quarter inch. I love how you can decide all that. I need to get a tape measure out because I have no idea about inches. Wait, wait, do I have? I have a tape measure. Oh, actually, this play field is just over a half inch thick. Yeah. So three-quarter is actually a little bit more, a little bit thicker. Okay. Cabinet, MDF. Oh, well, that's fine. Most cabinets these days are MDF. This one's the killer. Plexiglass glass cover. for safety uh yeah but the problem that's what they put on the the arcade one-up pin and everybody immediately traded it out and put in safety glass of their own tempered safety glass and that's the consumer's choice but consumer's choice it does add at that size you're looking at about 150 bucks yeah correct um yeah i and it's an expense it's an expense but that's like but again the people who were swapping out glass from the thing were not just average joe consumer there were people who wanted to do amazing things with no it became necessary because they were saying that the plexi was distorting the the the image and that's where a lot of people were saying that they were like, why does this look like trash? And as soon as they put in the tempered glass, they went, oh, this looks so much better. Or like took the glass off altogether and just experienced it without the glass. Yeah, possibly. I don't know what you mean. But, you know, Plexi is going to scratch. Yeah, especially in like a home environment with kids. Or a cat. Or anything. Like you look at it and it scratches. Yeah. So. Yeah, right. But anyway, there's where some of your one bit of cost saving comes into play right there. And also weight as well for shipping. That's a big thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I don't, like I said, I can't obviously judge the machine not having put my hands on it. I don't know how it feels. I don't know how it flips. You know, I mean, that's a big thing. I'm sorry when I tried that home pin thing. It was like, this feels wonky. this doesn't you know just the texture of the buttons was weird uh for the the thunderbirds um oh yeah right i used to hate data east machines because they just felt different to belly williams what's that yeah yeah when comparing the belly williams yeah yeah and i think you know the fact that they're using completely completely bespoke parts on this game like what what voltage are the coils running are they 24 volts are they 48 volts like or are they less you know with a smaller pinball they could probably even run it at less than 20 volts they might even be able to do 20 volt coils but they'll be bespoke coils yeah um and i'm just thinking of all the things that you need to replace on a pinball machine over time like having to go to them for rubbers look you could probably go and just go to something like titan and just downsize a band i think you could probably get away with doing that so for like slingshots that are you know two inch rubbers you can go one and a half inch and you can probably get around that you need yeah but you're assuming that it's going to be the same thickness also or the same width of the rubber yeah true they'd be crazy if they changed that like why have complete tooling like anyhow yeah but still like the biggest concern i have is all the mechanical elements like there's there's not a lot of moving parts on the game there's like what three pop bumpers uh that what looks like a spinner on the right ramp there's a lock or a captured ball there is a captured ball there's a captured ball so the captured ball is where the man had a reason it's a horseshoe and in between there's a captured ball and it's once you do the horseshoe nine times you hit the captured ball and i think that's what starts your multiball okay right um so there's like what one two three four five six seven maybe um an eight oh there'll be eight for the up kicker and maybe another one for the launch. How are you going to launch your multiballs into play? Are they going to be auto? Plunge each one? I don't know. Probably plunge each one into play, I'd say. Possibly. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know because I don't think there's anything under field. No. So maybe 10 solenoids. Let's call it an even 10. Yeah. So with that, there's multiple sub-assemblies. depending on the quality like what they're made out of you know um if they go down the path of stern and they create plastic brackets for the pop bumpers um you know i mean sterns hold up because they're like arcade grade but what ruggedization are they doing here this is their first round yeah this is their first rodeo with producing parts like belly williams have decades of experience with producing parts and have iterated on flipper mechs 10 times over the course of the the time they're doing it this is the first revision of their flipper mech i have engineering concerns immediately about this because i'm extra cautious about that sort of thing but i have to realize that this is this is essentially a toy and while you can get replacement parts for the toy it is definitely still toy level pinball yeah and i don't know i i just that's my biggest concern about it like if you spend if you down a grand on this thing and then six months later things start cracking because you're slamming it and you're really enjoying the experience of it and then the part price again this is pure assumption on my part like they control the supply chain they can charge what they like yeah for it you know i'm just being like a devil's advocate here going like you know what if you know a a new coil is 50 bucks if you burn one out like what if what if a uh replacement um sleeve and linkage kit for your flipper is like 30 bucks because they can charge what they want like i i don't know it feels feels like a gamble I feel like this is essentially when Bally put out Captain Fantastic and Fireball and sold them at Sears, those home editions. Oh, home editions. Yeah. I feel like that's what this essentially is, and that's the same market that they're going for. I have a feeling it'll be a little more reliable than those were. But again, these are not collector things. These are not going to go up in price. um no they're they're a uh which again and that's where it's like but it's hard for me to criticize because i'm like you're at the right price point for it i mean i can't i cannot expect you to produce a real a real honest to god pinball machine for 500 i i know that's that's that's absurd right yeah but the fact that you can do one for under a thousand now you're speaking Honestly, it's amazing. And this is the point I want to really make. I have my reservations about it, but what they're pitching here in the Kickstarter and the price point they're going for for what you're getting, it's amazing. And if, with the size, it would fit right in, right next to that app games cabinet. Right next to all your one-up arcade gear as well. And if you are successful with this and you have a second go around with another machine that has a completely different style layout, I think that's great. You know, you pick the right IP. It's a common domain IP that is exceedingly recognizable. Oh, yeah. It's so Disney adjacent, it's not even funny. Yeah. And the artists I've employed to imagine the art here have done a really, really good job at making it very appealing. It's really good. Really good choice. You didn't pick somebody's barbecue joint, like I forget who did that pinball, where it's like, what the hell? What is that? No, good choice of IP that doesn't cost you a thing, but that everybody knows. so if you can do a second round of that on another machine after this you know then I can see people start going like I have seen with many people with their arcade one up machines where they start doing an entire mini arcade you know and then you start getting a loyal a loyal following that just think of what other thing has come into public domain recently Mickey Mouse well Steamboat Willie steamboat willie yeah uh yep uh that's uh well and there's a whole slew that are about to uh to enter and i think like you know popeye or um yeah i forget what else there's a whole slew that are with it either this year or next that are high profile ip so there's your targets yeah like and they'd sell people would buy those yeah so that's what i'm like my gut reaction is to crap all over this, but then I'm also like, don't crap all over it. A, you haven't touched it, and B, it's not for you. You're not the target audience, but as I pointed out with that Jurassic Park, there is a target audience, and I think if these are going for that exact same audience, this is going to be more successful. This you can throw into a target and a best buy and expect people to purchase. People will just go and buy this one. They will walk up. If it was in a retail shop, they would look at it and go, just put in my car and they're they're targeting so delivery on this is targeting uh late 2025 uh with the intention of being in retail um late 2025 early 26 so yeah we'll see all right i i genuinely wish them luck on this yeah i think it's ambitious but I think if you're focusing on the fact that these guys have experience in the toy making market and they're applying that same level of engineering know-how I think they're going to be okay I really hope they're going to be okay because this is a really cool idea and I really do wish them all success it's wouldn't it be wonderful if it drove down the price of Stern home pin machines. I would love to see that. Not that it will, but I would love to see it. Okay, that's all for that. Real quickly, Jared. Here's my dilemma. The MetaQuest 3. Yeah. The 128 gig version is no longer for sale. It's all the 512. But you can pick up refurb, like Meta themselves are selling refurb uh 128 uh how important do you think it is to have the 512 gig with with the intention of it being filled with nothing but pinball titles it's hard hard to say um so when i bought the the quest 3 i was offered um like a triple a title um and i thought cool you get it free and then i went to install it and it was 30 gig size and i just went i'm not playing that game on a 128 gig thing okay so so i would i would say like anything when you buy a piece of hardware go for the maximum that you can buy okay that's a question probably as a 128 gig owner yeah i think i'm up to about 50 capacity and i've got like seven or eight games installed on it okay so because you will you will look for other games once you have pinball like it's it'll be the gateway drug that will get you into vr look i mean beat sabers are given but uh beyond that you need you need space if you're buying dlc for that so get the 512 okay for sure um next question how important is the link cable if you pretty much are only planning on playing pinball for the moment uh well look it's 80 bucks you don't even need a link cable you don't need a link cable anymore because you have um air air link um capability now on the headset so if you want to connect it to your pc um you can actually use over wi-fi to do that now okay there are some caveats to setting it up but yes you don't need that link cable because it's very expensive it's an optical fiber link cable which is why it's so expensive because they have a very long length on it um it's very good but i don't think you necessarily need it look buy it later If only I could use the optical fiber that I used to have for all my audio components that nobody uses anymore because of HDMI. I like the Tozlink standard. It's different. I know that buying a new Halo is almost mandatory. Thanks, you must do it. Now, do you go with metas or is there a third party? yeah and is there a third party you recommend uh yes but i can't remember the name of it in fact i actually just went for like a cheapo amazon special oh really with a built-in battery pack on it is that the important part built-in battery yeah okay yep so the built-in battery pack will mean you can have longer gaming sessions um if you have glasses you can also consider getting prescription inserts yeah they're only 50 bucks um that will make your game experience much better if you're going to my question like right now obviously i'm not wearing glasses um anything within five feet of me i'm a-okay without my glasses on you might be right then so i might be okay um so that's definitely going to be one of those that i will wait and see if i need i'm not going to purchase it right off the bat i'll have to see if i'm uh fine without it um carrying case no no okay don't worry are you going to be carrying this thing around everywhere with you i don't know no you're not just a nice cupboard that you can put it away away from direct sunlight because if you if the lenses catch sunlight they can like damage the screens so you must be careful about that that is literally i think just put it in a bag if you want to keep it away from sunlight a soft bag will be more than adequate and a nice little nook with a cupboard that you can put all accessories in i've just got mine underneath the tv and i've got a power cord that runs to it so i can charge it and my everything just goes in there keeps it away keeps the dust off it that's all you need uh what about charging stand nope nope just plug it in it's got a usb like if you got the battery pack on the back of your headset anyhow you're gonna be plugging it into there because it's going to be your primary plug. And the other tip, if you haven't thought about headphones, Bluetooth will not work with your headset. You must have either wired or a low latency headphone. Now, when you say, okay, so how does it play sound without? It's got little speakers that fire into your ears, but they're tinny and crap. Okay. And you won't like it. So are you talking like over-the-ear headphones, or are there things that attach to it that can do just as well? There's lots of different options, but, I mean, when you first get it, just use literally what you have plugged into your ears now. That will work plugged into the – I think it's got a – it does have a headphone jack on it, I believe. I'll have to look. But there is one that I have, which is Soundcore, and it's got like a little pass-through dongle that you can use to both charge your headset at the same time as using your headphones because it's only got one usb-c port on it and honestly they're great um they they have really good sound quality um they they easily and seamlessly pair they fit really nice in your ears um and they're actually worth the money getting them so yeah go with the sound core ones for quest 2 they work just the same for quest 3 it's the same thing alright those are my questions because I've been checking prices seeing if there's any deals you know all anybody's offering is Arkham Asylum with it Arkham Asylum is the game that's 30 gig ah okay sorry I think it's Arkham Asylum is that the Batman one? yeah no different no that's no it's different no this one was uh different i can't remember but it was massive but uh right now everything's been it's been 4.99 right for everything walmart just up there to 5.19 and i'm like here comes them tariffs here comes the tariffs man so if you look i need to purchase soon yeah you you definitely need to it's a 5.12 and then you know if you don't use all the storage well you don't use the storage but you won't be kicking yourself when you go jeez i'm nearly at 126 gig and i want another couple of dlc i want to throw in this thing i don't think the dlc won't actually add a huge amount on but if you're thinking about the entire library coming over to vr yeah that that is going to be like a lot of gigabytes and even for me i'm going to make some choices about what games i install on the headset which won't be difficult because I don't really play a lot of VR, to be honest, at the moment. Now, in closing as well, on the subject of VR, I've been obviously hanging around in the VR discords on pinball effects. And look, it's come up again, UEVR, right? So when we... We? Did we both try it at one point? I never tried it. I was asking you to try. I did have a go of it, And my experience wasn't stellar. It was too much configuration and messing around for my liking. However, I did bring this up again because someone was talking about it on it saying, oh, yeah, look, I really wanted to give it a go, but it was really hard to set up. And I did more time tweaking than actually playing. And they suggested that since that time and now, the experience has come a long way. so if you are on pc and you want to not rebuy everything i'm just saying give it a go um try ue vr another time if you've tried it before and you weren't impressed try it again and see how you go because from what i've seen again not direct experience because i haven't tried it again but certainly from what folks are saying on discord it's it's not nearly as hard as it was to get working right. They've put a lot of time into the user experience of getting it set up now, I think, and that's the big difference. So give it a go and see what you think. You might be happy enough with it now that you may not want to invest in the on-device experience that's being offered in VR. But that being said, you are still going to get the flat room experience and everything that's in that experience at the moment. So none of the new shininess and campaigns and stuff. it'll just be you know what's there in pinball effects to pinball effects now so i mean people are happy with vpx so i don't see why they wouldn't be happy with that exactly yeah you know and you know once you get it configured for um pinball effects there's a lot of other titles that then become vr ready um and have varying degrees of support so it's sort of like get it working for like pinball effects and then i don't know try it on some of the other library and see how you go so all right well that is all the time that we have for you today we spent plenty of it so thank you for sticking with us um i'll get rid of this cough one of these days um let's see what do we got coming up we have well probably by the next time that we uh talk to you will have experienced these games in VR. Yeah, I'd say so. So we might have some first-hand commentary on that happening. Did Xen announce any other tables? Not yet. No, it's just been VR and the last pinball fights. Yeah, okay. That's it. All right, so we'll have to keep an eye out and see what's going on there. But that's what we've got for you this week. next time it's what jared loves to talk about stuff and things all right until then folks thanks for thanks for being with us bye bye now see you later

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: f78d63d8-e874-408a-91be-1d547cd2b40a*