# Ep 102: Joel Crashes the Party **Source:** LoserKid Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2023-02-18 **Duration:** 72m 34s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://zencastr.com/z/c-oVBazG --- ## Analysis Loser Kid Pinball hosts Josh Roop and Scott Larson discuss recent life updates, recap their interview with legendary designer Keith Elwin, and welcome guest Joel Engelberth from Triple Drain Podcast. They analyze Cactus Canyon's design and accessibility, discuss topper quality and pricing trends, and tease multiple unannounced game reveals coming at Texas Pinball Festival. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Keith Elwin has completed four pinball games and is working on Bond 60th; at Stern's two games/year release pace with four designers, Keith has calculated he releases every other year, freeing him for one-off projects. — _Scott Larson discussing Keith's interview about designer pipeline at Stern_ - [HIGH] Cactus Canyon Chicago Gaming Company edition feels like a complete game with modern code from Chicago Gaming (not Lyman Sheets' original unfinished code); Lyman Sheets code has not been released. — _Joel Engelberth discussing his extended play testing on loaned machine_ - [HIGH] Cactus Canyon SLE+ and LE units are becoming scarce in the secondary market; demand and value are rising despite initial slow sales. — _Scott and Joel discussing current market availability and resale pricing trends_ - [HIGH] Multiple pinball manufacturers have instructed the hosts to wait until Texas Pinball Festival to discuss upcoming announcements; every company contacted used the phrase 'let's talk after Texas.' — _Josh and Scott discussing pre-show embargo communications_ - [HIGH] Electric Playground Company (teppinball.com) is unveiling a new product at Texas Pinball Festival; they are planning to transition from one-off fan projects to a mod/topper company. — _Josh explicitly sharing allowed information about Electric Playground Company's unveiling_ - [HIGH] A custom Godzilla topper by Electric Playground was so well-executed that community members mistook it for an official Stern topper release. — _Josh describing community reaction to the topper quality_ - [HIGH] Premium aftermarket toppers (e.g., Pirates of the Caribbean, Indiana Jones) cost $1,500–$2,500, roughly 50% of a new pinball machine price. — _Scott and Joel discussing pricing of elite toppers_ - [MEDIUM] Cactus Canyon's accessibility—easy to accidentally start modes without qualifying—is a feature not a bug; it allows novice players immediate fun without reading rules. — _Joel and Scott analyzing design philosophy compared to modern games like Godzilla and TMNT_ ### Notable Quotes > "If you're doing two a year, that means you're releasing a game every other year. And Keith seems to be able to design them a lot faster. So this totally makes sense for him to be able to jump in and say, hey, let's go ahead and do this one-off, this Bond 60th." > — **Scott Larson**, early in episode > _Explains Keith Elwin's availability for the Bond 60th one-off design given Stern's four-designer pipeline_ > "Even his failures would probably still feel like successes. I don't see Keith falling hard enough for it to be like a long-lasting effect." > — **Josh Roop**, discussing Keith's track record > _Reflects community confidence in Elwin's design pedigree and perceived inability to fail_ > "I had so low hopes for this game. I was just like, ah, it'll be fun. It'll be something to do until Scooby-Doo shows up or Bond 60th. And I have just been completely blown away by this game." > — **Joel Engelberth**, Cactus Canyon discussion > _Indicates Cactus Canyon exceeded expectations for a guest known for high play standards; signals market surprise at Chicago Gaming quality_ > "Cactus Canyon is just fun. Like it is just fun pinball. And to have something like that, you can just step up and have a good time that you don't have to grind away from or work." > — **Kerry Hardy (quoted by Joel)**, mid-episode > _Endorsement from respected content creator on the game's casual accessibility appeal_ > "This is how good it is—it fooled people in the community to make them think this was the official topper coming out from Stern. That's how good this topper was." > — **Josh Roop**, Electric Playground Godzilla topper discussion > _Demonstrates the high quality bar Electric Playground has set with third-party toppers_ > "Things are coming to Texas. Yes. And it's from multiple companies. I'm not allowed to say what's coming because they didn't tell me. But I'm not going to tell you what companies told me to wait until after Texas. But I can tell you all of them. Every single one, yeah." > — **Josh Roop and Scott Larson**, Texas Pinball Festival teaser > _Confirms broad industry embargo on announcements until Texas Pinball Festival_ > "I don't know what Stern's making, so I don't know if it's going to be better or worse. And two, a lot of it was art pulled directly from the game. So it was Zombie Yeti art that was pulled from the cabinet." > — **Joel Engelberth**, Electric Playground topper discussion > _Reveals tension between aftermarket mod companies and official Stern toppers; notes art licensing complexity_ > "There's there's fun there so close to the flipper that it's just like, let's just have a good time. I don't I don't have to focus in and commit to a long playing." > — **Joel Engelberth**, Cactus Canyon design analysis > _Articulates the design philosophy that makes Cactus Canyon appealing—immediate gratification vs. deep ruleset commitment_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Keith Elwin | person | Legendary Stern pinball designer; recently completed fourth game design and is designing Bond 60th one-off project; discussed on episode regarding design pipeline and why he has availability for one-off projects. | | Joel Engelberth | person | Host of Triple Drain Podcast; guest on this episode; has extended hands-on experience with loaned Cactus Canyon machine; enthusiastic advocate for Cactus Canyon's quality and accessibility. | | Loser Kid Pinball Podcast | organization | Podcast hosted by Josh Roop and Scott Larson; this is episode 102; known for interviews with pinball designers and industry figures. | | Josh Roop | person | Co-host of Loser Kid Pinball Podcast; leads discussions on design philosophy, market trends, and industry rumors. | | Scott Larson | person | Co-host of Loser Kid Pinball Podcast; analyzes design trends and licensing challenges for third-party mod companies. | | Cactus Canyon | game | Chicago Gaming Company pinball machine based on classic Williams design; discussed extensively as high-quality, accessible casual game; SLE+ and LE variants are selling out. | | Chicago Gaming Company | company | Boutique pinball manufacturer; developed modern code for Cactus Canyon; praised for build quality and light integration; slow production but high quality control. | | Electric Playground Company | company | Emerging aftermarket topper/mod company (website: teppinball.com); created high-quality Godzilla topper; unveiling new product at Texas Pinball Festival; planning to transition from one-off projects to commercial mod business. | | Texas Pinball Festival | event | Upcoming pinball event where multiple manufacturers have embargoed announcements; Electric Playground Company unveiling new topper for classic Bally Williams game. | | Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; Keith Elwin works for Stern; operates four-designer pipeline releasing two games per year; produces official toppers for their games. | | Bond 60th | game | Upcoming one-off pinball game designed by Keith Elwin for Stern, celebrating 60th anniversary of James Bond franchise. | | Zombie Yeti | person | Stern pinball art director; created artwork for Godzilla and other games; his art was used in Electric Playground's Godzilla topper. | | Kerry Hardy | person | Pinball content creator with extensive collection; endorsed Cactus Canyon as 'fun pinball' on Joel's stream. | | Flippin' Out Pinball | company | Pinball distributor, retailer, and streaming platform operated by Zach; lending Cactus Canyon to Joel for extended play testing and streaming. | | Triple Drain Podcast | organization | Pinball podcast hosted by Joel Engelberth; coverage of game reviews and community discussions. | | Lyman Sheets | person | Original designer of Cactus Canyon for Williams; his version of the code (unfinished) has not been released; Chicago Gaming Company version is complete modern code. | | Godzilla | game | Stern pinball game; featured in topper discussion; design cited as example of modern accessibility with obvious bash toys. | | Medieval Madness | game | Classic Williams game; referenced as casual-friendly game with fun immediately accessible to new players; example of accessible design philosophy. | | Deadpool | game | Spooky pinball game; cited as modern accessible design with lit scoop from start, allowing novices to immediately start battles. | ### Topics - **Primary:** Keith Elwin's design pipeline and Bond 60th project, Cactus Canyon's quality, accessibility, and market scarcity, Texas Pinball Festival announcements and manufacturer embargoes, Electric Playground Company's custom toppers and business transition - **Secondary:** Pinball design philosophy: accessibility vs. depth for casual vs. competitive players, Aftermarket topper pricing and licensing challenges, Lyman Sheets' original Cactus Canyon code status and future release - **Mentioned:** Personal life updates and hobby enthusiasm ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.78) — Strong enthusiasm for Cactus Canyon's quality and accessibility; optimism about Texas Pinball Festival announcements; praise for Electric Playground's topper craftsmanship. Some concerns about premium topper pricing and licensing challenges for third-party mod companies. Respectful tone throughout; no significant negativity. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** Electric Playground Company transitioning from one-off fan projects to commercial mod/topper business; planning to announce new product line at Texas Pinball Festival. (confidence: high) — Josh: 'This is a new company... getting ready to unveil something at Texas... they're coming with a new topper for a classic Bally Williams game.' - **[competitive_signal]** Accessible casual games (Cactus Canyon, Medieval Madness, Whitewater) essential for diverse collections to balance harder 'beat-em-up' titles like Total Nuclear Annihilation and Deadpool. (confidence: medium) — Joel: 'It's a constant battle when you have a collection... you have your beat-em-up... something a little more modern, but it could be a little easier.' Scott: 'if you have a four-pin collection like you do, Joel, it's an essential pin to have.' - **[design_philosophy]** Industry trend toward balancing accessibility (easy mode entry, immediate fun) with depth (competitive/wizard modes); Cactus Canyon praised as example of accessibility-first design that doesn't alienate experienced players. (confidence: high) — Joel: 'fun there so close to the flipper... immediately have fun with Cactus Canyon... you don't have to focus in and commit.' Scott: 'finding that sweet spot of okay, how accessible is the game for a non-casual player?' - **[event_signal]** Texas Pinball Festival confirmed as major announcement venue; multiple manufacturers (unspecified) have coordinated embargo on announcements until after the festival. (confidence: high) — Josh: 'Every single one of them... the catchphrase I've heard from every single one of them is, let's talk after Texas.' Scott: 'Things are coming to Texas. Yes.' - **[licensing_signal]** Third-party topper/mod companies face licensing challenges when scaling from one-off fan projects to commercial products; using official game art (Zombie Yeti's Godzilla art) walks legal/licensing line. (confidence: high) — Scott: 'if you're actually going to market it, then you start getting into, well, we either need to make our own art or license some sort of art. And it's unlikely that Stern will license their art to a third party.' Joel: 'a lot of it was art pulled directly from the game... using art that they didn't produce.' - **[market_signal]** Cactus Canyon SLE+ and LE inventory is drying up; secondary market prices rising; game shifted from slow-seller to high-demand collectible. (confidence: high) — Scott: 'there's not a lot on for sale... when I last looked at his list, he doesn't have any Cactus Canyon in stock... until these SLE+ start trickling out for sale, I just think it's going to be a little harder to find these.' - **[market_signal]** Premium aftermarket toppers ($1,500–$2,500) represent 50% of new pinball machine cost, creating pricing resistance among buyers despite high quality. (confidence: medium) — Scott: 'at some point you're thinking, wow, like, that's half a game.' Josh: 'those were really impressive... at some point you're thinking, wow, like, that's half a game.' - **[product_strategy]** Scooby-Doo pinball mentioned as upcoming title Joel expects to receive after Cactus Canyon loan period ends; timeline not specified but implied as imminent. (confidence: medium) — Joel: 'It'll be fun. It'll be something to do until Scooby-Doo shows up or Bond 60th.' - **[product_concern]** Cactus Canyon exceeded expectations for experienced players; Chicago Gaming Company build quality, light integration, and XL DMD praised as surprising upgrade from perceived mediocre designer. (confidence: high) — Joel: 'I had so low hopes for this game... I have just been completely blown away.' Scott: 'Even if you ask Zach from Flippin' Out, when I last looked at his list, he doesn't have any Cactus Canyon in stock.' - **[technology_signal]** Custom aftermarket topper companies (Electric Playground) creating professional-grade light-integrated toppers that rival or exceed Stern's official offerings in visual quality and interactivity. (confidence: high) — Joel: 'Layered plastics with metal brackets... incredibly well done... light integrated into... different lights go off.' Josh: 'fooled people in the community to make them think this was the official topper coming out from Stern.' --- ## Transcript thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast we are on episode 102 i am josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott it's another beautiful day in pinball it's kind of all quiet on the western front right now yeah a little bit if you want to get on a list because the tpf rumors are starting to fly, who are you going to call for this? I would call Zach and Nicole at Flip N Out Pinball. They have all sorts of things to scratch that itch that you've been having, either for a pinball machine or any sort of game room machine that you want for your fun cave. I don't want it to be exclusive to guys. Women can have fun in the cave, too. Your she shed or your man cave, right? She shed. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, let's just have the fun dome. Let's make it a fun dome. But, yeah, they certainly have things. And if you want to try something else, they have Golden Tee. And I know that they have, if you want to get, like, one of those Roth Reels games that has the home version. Or if you want to buy a commercial one, I guess. Reach out to Zach and Nicole. They've always been easy to work with. I agree. You know, like I said, it's kind of quiet right now. So it's me and you. We decided to do a little catching up. And there's actually been some media releases that we've received that we haven't been able to talk about on the show. And so I figured you and I would go over these because we've actually had quite a few emails and stuff too. Yeah. But first, let's go over what life changes. I'd say in the last two weeks, but it's been, I don't know, it's been a month or two now, I feel like. Yeah. uh yeah well because we had keith on and then we had our uh we had our 100 episode and it's just been kind of busy we are we have finished our renovation on the main level at least the main stuff we are slowly matriculating back up um i thought that i had lost the the hardware to my bed but thankfully we figured out where i put it because you know you put it somewhere where you think this is obvious and then you totally forget about it yeah um and just starting to expand back into our space uh been playing i've actually really gotten back into jurassic park a lot lately so i've been playing a lot of jurassic park but uh that yeah that's pretty much uh my update oh um we i got back from guatemala uh a couple weeks ago and uh was able to go down there and do some cleft lips and palate surgery so that was all that's always a great experience yeah and you know just just getting through winter i guess i'm i'm kind of the same boat we just finished up the bathroom that was quite the project but now we have a bathroom downstairs so i can feel comfortable doing pinball tournaments now i've threatened it for years and maybe i'll actually start doing it but we have a bathroom down by the pinball machine so people won't be running up through the house and uh my wife and i went to puerto rico for 15 years that was a blast i'd highly recommend to anyone if you're from the united states you don't need a passport to go it was reasonably priced for everything and i don't know it was great like you said it's been cold like i know it's not been utah's been really cold yeah we've been in negative temperatures at least where i'm at for the last two weeks yeah uh we're lucky to see above single digits and two days ago the wind was blowing so hard they had to shut down the roads out of my town heading towards colorado because they just it was insane things just blow over yeah so it was nice to get out of the cold um my collection stayed the same i've still got the same pinball machines but i'm jonesing yeah jonesing to uh change up the lineup just just a hair yeah so it'll be interesting to see what happens uh what what reactions did we get from l1 being on speaking of uh rumors yeah uh i don't know why you tell me i don't know people are excited they're excited to hear four flippers they're really curious about this whole two or normal flippers two or some different type of flippers it's funny you joked about a banana flipper banana flippers yeah and no one no one took us seriously they were like yeah uh okay where was i oh you know what i'm just gonna throw this in there because it happened joel engelberth all of a sudden just like messages out of the blue we're like hey come join us and he's like oh sorry i can't guys so thanks thanks for interrupting the podcast yeah no it's all good it's all good it's you It's fine. It's fine. If you want to hang out with your wife, then as opposed to us, that's fine. Yeah, I see how it is, Joel. At least Travis and Tom have a good excuse there at District 82 getting their butts handed to them by Keith Elwin. So I get that excuse, but Joel – Sorry, Joel. Weak sauce. Okay, back to what we were talking about. So we had Elwin on the episode. Yeah. It was great. It's always great having Elwin on. I think it's funny we get harassed, though. What was that, their 12th time? No, it's our fifth. It's our fifth, okay? It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. It's all good. It's all good. No, but it was a great episode. It was a great episode. And what it shows is that it doesn't seem like Keith is slowing down. No. I guess that's part of it. It seemed like when he found out that they were looking for another designer, he's like, look, I don't have a game coming out for a while because there's four designers. So do the math, right? If you're doing two a year, that means you're releasing a game every other year. Yep. And Keith seems to be able to design them a lot faster. So this totally makes sense for him to be able to jump in and say, hey, let's go ahead and do this one-off, this Bond 60. I did put in a request, though, for him to just ask George if they could possibly reuse the playfields for a different theme. Maybe they could rename it Supreme or something. Yeah. No, I agree. I want to say a couple of things, and I'm going to say this very carefully. There is some nuggets that he dropped, but no one noticed it because they weren't paying attention. They heard what they wanted to hear, but they didn't hear the way that he said it. That is the stuff I'm going to give you. If you want to go back and re-listen to that episode, the one question we failed to ask that I wish we would have is ask him how many projects deep he is. Because, you know, in previous episodes, he's talked about, well, I'm three games ahead or I'm two games ahead. And that's even one we forgot to ask off air. But it's great to see that Keith is up for the challenge. Like he said, I'm up for the challenge. give me a chance and really keith is has elevated pinball and i i feel like we've had this discussion off air even his failures would probably still feel like successes i i just don't see keith falling hard enough for it to be like a long lasting effect you see what i'm saying i i would say so far he hasn't um he hasn't had a messed up yeah and that's really impressive four for four for your first, you know, when you enter in the design process and your first four games are amazing. Yeah. And that says a lot about the talent level you're working with. Well, and I honestly think he's five for five with Bond 60th. I really think. Yeah, that will be great. I definitely want to get some time in on it. My friend's getting it. I'm not sure when it's going to come in. One person had brought up, I guess not one person, there was a handful of people that brought this up. Why didn't we ask him about price? keith was only asked to do the play field right he has no control over price i don't want to harp on him about why did you ask why is this 20 grand what's what's he gonna say like if he's against it he's not gonna say like i'm against what stern just did that that's not that's not in his umbrella exactly so i just he's a designer not not the marketer or i mean that would be a question for George about pricing. But as George has said before, they're going to have pricing for different customers. And if there is an elite customer who wants to spend a lot of money on one game, they're going to make a game for that. If you have an average person who just wants a fun, less expensive toy, they have the Home Pin line. There's a reason why they have, they basically have five options right now they have the home pin they have the pro premium le and then they're they're super uh you know the the the short run but high dollar things yeah and they don't come out often either no no and that would be where supreme was and and you could you could argue that heavy metal was a short run but they priced that a little more so there's kind of a specialty line i guess i'll put it that way that the pricing could be variable yes and that reminds me sorry uh i actually did a pinball tournament oh last weekend speaking of heavy metal that is a brutal game my good sir it is fun it is fast it is definitely a tournament game if you're looking for a good tournament game i know it's the same layout as star wars and uh supreme Spider-Man, all home editions. But you know what? It was fun, but it was mean. It was not forgiving. I was very proud of myself. Went up to Salt Lake, got to meet, go to Nick from Manny. I'm sorry, dude. I'm not good at names. It is what it is. And we played his collection, wonderful collection, Godzilla Pro, Simpsons Pinball Party, Heavy Metal, Roller Coaster Tycoon, Cactus Canyon, Black Hole, Apollo 13, a Joust. Not the head-to-head Joust, but the EM two-player. Not many people are aware of it. Great collection. It was a really good time, and I ended up taking third. It was wonderful. I knocked out Mark Laird, which is insane to me because that man is so – He's a good player. He's on the next level. Mike Lund got knocked out before me, which Iceman has taken out Steven Bowden in Nationals. And then Josh Craig, and he was also a former state champ. So three state champs, and I was able to get past them. Logan Smith ended up taking first. He's one of those kids you want to keep an eye on. His career is going to take off. He's 11, 12, somewhere around there. He's young. Yeah, and his parents opened a pinball bar up in Ogden, so that's nice. Okay, breaking news. We actually have the third co-host for Loser Kid Pinball. I would like to welcome Travis Murie to the podcast. How are you doing, Travis? that was pretty good i thought that was a decent impression yeah well at least your uh at least your your video is working so oh yeah well what travis so you got to say like tour tur tur um other words that he's uh i don't know meta the meta of the game there's so many travis muriisms yeah yeah okay so we actually don't have travis muri and we don't have tom because travis and tom are actually playing at a competition but we do have joel from the triple grain podcast who did not play in a competition no i uh i actually it's friday night i play uh i play uh volleyball in a co-ed league with my wife we just got home from that uh nana left the kids are asleep all that stuff and i get a random message hey you guys want to record a podcast i'm like guys it's friday night and i so i jokingly say to my wife hey apparently people want to record a podcast right now my wife's like to be honest i have a glass of wine i want to sit here on the couch and look at my phone for like the next 45 minutes so if you want to go do that i'm like okay so here i am yeah what is she watching uh it just i'm facebook you know just oh she wants to do sports yeah i don't know whatever i get it it makes her happy sure okay i think i think every wife does that i i oh yeah no seriously it's yeah no it's it's all good and dudes do it too i mean i see people on their phones all the time so oh yeah but hey why why do that when i can talk with you guys you know and make fun of travis it's always i'm always down yeah okay so first off i do want to talk about a few things with joel because joel you have a Cactus Canyon on loan to you. Yep. And you did beat the original completed. Now, is this code the original kind of unfinished code, or was this their version of the code that Chicago Game Company did that is not the same thing as the Lyman Sheets, Josh? It is definitely not the Lyman code. The Lyman code has not come out at all. They say they completed the original code. I don't know. I never played the original code. But like, I know like the original code didn't even have like a match animation at the end, you know, so they're match. Yeah. Yeah. So it's very clear. I mean, what I will say is now that I've, I've seen every aspect of the game, it feels like a complete game. It feels like there's, you know, it's not now some of the modes are, um, you know, there's a few modes that are one shot. Like you start a mode and you, you hit one shot and the mode's over. So that to me is my guess is when the Lyman code comes out. I don't I'm not expecting him to add, you know, eight new modes and eight more wizard modes like that. I would just assume they're going to start fleshing out, you know, and giving more depth to some of these things. So maybe instead of just one shot, maybe it's well, if you hit these other shots, you can build value. And then I don't know. We'll see. But either way, what I've experienced in the game, I've really enjoyed. You still like it? I do. I was I beat it the other night and I was kind of one of those. do I care? Like, do I, do I want to play the game again? And, and, um, yeah, I've played it. I keep playing it and I'm still having fun. It's just a, there are some very fun things very close to the start button that in my mind, haven't gotten old yet, you know? And, um, and I'm, so I'm enjoying it and I know I'm going to stream it again on, on the flipping out stream on Wednesday. So that'll be another two hours. My brother and I'll play. So that'll be after that stream is really when I'll know whether or not I'm like still in love with the game or like, okay, I can get you. I can check that box. Yeah. It's a great game. And I think the problem is, is it needs the Lyman code to make it more of a bolt to the floor game. I think the problem is, is it's, there's a lot of memorable lines. I don't care who you are. Everyone, everyone quotes the lock and slit lock and slit. And yeah, it is. It has been so like my, my friends and family, it's they, they just are drawn to the game and it has so many good toys and mechs. It's so approachable that everybody's having a good time with it. And so because of that, to see people wanting to play pinball in my house is so fun to see that it's like, man, maybe a game like this, whether it's Cactus Canyon or Medieval Madness, something along these lines makes sense in my small collection. But I'll tell you if the, if the Lyman code genuinely brings depth and something to like, don't mess with what's currently there just give me more of it because what's currently there everybody's enjoying i just would love to go even further with it and have more pull to go deeper in the game yeah well the shots are very easy on that game well depending on how it's set up so it's not super hard to get like stampede that's if you've ever played attack from mars that is the uh Total Nuclear Annihilation mode so stampede is Total Nuclear Annihilation yeah you just do all the modes well you well no you shoot all the shots three times well yeah you shoot a shot three times it starts a mode but you still you can't while you're in that mode you're not getting shots towards the other stuff like you have to finish the mode before you get more shots towards the other shots correct so you in essence have to play all the modes except for the last one when you shoot the last shot that you haven't missed you don't even play that mode it just goes straight in a stampede yeah yeah but it's fun it's it's what i've noticed is there's no quite it's just you just hit three shots and it starts a mode and that's that's something that to see like my brother or my sister-in-law like they're just starting modes and they don't even realize it like that's something that is really hard compared to a modern game you know like godzilla hey to start a battle you have to hit two ramps and then you have to hit the scoop you have to do that in that order there's no other way you're going to start a battle this you just kind of you can mistakenly just get right into it and that's pretty cool you can tumble into modes yeah yeah the uh i will say the this is the challenge that modern pinball has is finding that sweet spot of okay how accessible is the game for a non like a better than casual player like how how accessible is it for below that i'm sorry i mean below that so uh you all all three of us if we stand up to a game, we're going to look at the rules so that we say okay how do we start the modes What are we doing The entry player has no idea what going on They don even see the flashing light However the magic of the Bally Williams is they have that thing whatever it is that was fun to shoot So in Cactus Canyon, it's shooting up and Bart's head flies back. In Medieval Madness, the castle goes blowing. And just things like that are interesting, and they're not that difficult. Yeah, to get into. Yeah. Bash toys are just obvious. Like they're obvious what you're trying to do. And, you know, to Godzilla's credit, you have the Mechagodzilla bash toy up the ramp. You have the building right up the ramp. But I know I'll get hate from Dennis Creasel because I'm going to mention Deadpool. But like Deadpool, the scoop is lit from the start. So all a novice player has to do is fall into it. There's no qualifying that. It just falls in. And then, oh, I'm in a battle. I can do this and this. So, yes, but you're right. You don't want it to be so easy that anybody above a novice is going to be bored of the process. But yet, if you have something like turtles, you have to hit two ramps and then the turtle van, and those ramps aren't exactly the easiest shots, you can have people step up and go through three balls and never start an episode. And then it's not fun, and they walk away. Then are they going to put another dollar in or $2 or whatever it is now? I, I, uh, my friend actually may have ended up with two LEs. And so I, if, if that does come to fruition, I'm going to buy one of the LEs because I, that is a perfect game for my kids to want to play pinball. yeah it but it's also like what i've found i i consider myself you know above a novice but it's just if i want to just come down and immediately have fun playing pinball like i get that with godzilla just because the shots feel so good but like i can immediately have fun with cactus canyon there's there's fun there so close to the flipper that it's just like let's just have a good time i don't i don't have to focus in and commit to a long playing whatever to really you know like i want to get to this wizard mode and that's where the fun's at it's like no you can just immediately have fun with it but i would say what the biggest thing that i've realized because now if i'm considering a chicago gaming game in my collection the le's of every other game are so expensive like the value of these games is just continuing to go up and the topper is so well done on this game that to me if i was going to buy one right now i i would get an se plus if i could uh well because I don't think I can get an LE anywhere. But yeah, if you're thinking about it at all, you might as well. You might as well jump in on the LE while you can because the value is only going up. And actually, I was really on the fence when my friend unboxed it. And so he invited us over and we came down and I opened it up and like, wow, they seem to elevate every release by increasing the quality, by increasing the build. And it is a solid game that I would feel confident in buying that would continue to work in an arcade environment, in a home environment. The only knock on Chicago Gaming is it takes them a while to make games. Yeah. And getting this game, I had – because I stream for Flip N Out Pinball, and Zach is super generous in letting me borrow games, and I had so low hopes for this game. I was just like, ah, it'll be fun. It'll be something to do until Scooby-Doo shows up or Bond 60th. And I have just been completely blown away by this game. The build quality, the light show, the sound package, the extended XL DMD, the topper, like everything to have no expectations and then just be like, this game is really, really, really good. I don't know. It just completely took me by surprise. And it kind of put CGC on the map for me of like I've never even considered a CGC game. And now I'm impressed. Like, I'm really impressed. And I think that's why there's so few sold, because a lot of people that got them, they waited a long time to get them. They got them and they bolted them. They're just like, yep, this is my collection. And that's that. But I don't know. I feel like I've talked. I also do on Flip N Out Pinball. I do the Flip N Out Pinball with friends. And I gushed all over it on that stream. I gushed all over it on Triple Drain. So people are probably sick of it. But, hey, reach out to Zach. Order an SE+. Tell him Joel sent you, because I love it. I freaking love this game. will gladly give it a big thumbs up from me. Yeah. Well, that's good. I love playing it too. And it is fun to have that game. It's like Whitewater. Whitewater is not a deep game, but it is fun for the average player. They can do something cool. Yeah, I agree. And I know Kerry Hardy hopped on my stream when I was talking about it, and I know he has a Cactus Canyon. And I asked him, I was like, Kerry Hardy, I mean, he's got an incredible collection. I know he's a good player. and he just said he goes cactus canyon is just fun like it is just fun pinball and to have something like that you can just step up and have a good time that you don't have to grind away from or work i mean it's i i don't know it's i have enjoyed it i've played it every day that i've had it because everybody says it's an easy game everybody says it's easy so i'm like i better beat this game before it's gone or else i'm gonna you know if the if the easy game i can't beat i gotta to beat it before it's gone and um and so yeah i've played the heck out of it and i beat it but i've still i still want to play the heck out of it because i know zach will come pick it up probably within a week or two yeah well and and honestly looking at the market right now even on pin side there's not a lot on for sale i mean even if you ask zach from flipping out when i last looked at his list he doesn't have any cactus canyon in stock it seemed like this game sat for a little bit and now you can't find them and so until these se pluses start trickling out for sale i just think it's going to be a little harder to find these i think people they start getting on location they start playing with that this is actually a fun game it shoots great and i enjoy it there's just something to be said about a casual uh game that just kind of caters to you yeah no it's great to have an iron mate or an iron man in your collection something and it kind of beats you up in short ball times, and it's fast and fun. There's something to be said about Medieval Madness, Cactus Canyon, just those casual, fun games that every time you turn on, it puts a smile on your face, and you just enjoy playing. I think if you have a four-pin collection like you do, Joel, it's an essential pin to have in the collection. And then you have your beat-em-up, like your Total Nuclear Annihilation. And then Deadpool, something a little more modern, but it could be a little easier. Yeah, it's great. I mean, in a perfect role, I get it. It's a constant battle when you have a collection of trying to curate it and make it what fits me but also others. And some people have that mentality of, like, I don't buy pins for others. I'm the one that plays them 98% of the time, so I want to get the games that I want. And that's fine. But it's just I can't express the amount of joy it's brought me over the last two, three weeks seeing people play this game and have a good time. And it's like, well, crap, they're enjoying the game that I don't own. Maybe I need to change something here. you know yeah okay so i'm gonna move on from it because we're running short on time with joel and so i want to move on to the texas pinball festival and some of the rumors some of the the reveals are coming up uh first off let's talk about i'm not gonna lie we've reached out to multiple guests this week and the the catchphrase i've heard from every single one of them is let's talk after texas right things things are coming to texas yes and it's from multiple companies I'm not allowed to say what's coming because they didn't tell me. But I'm not going to tell you what companies told me to wait until after Texas. But I can tell you. All of them. Every single one, yeah. Yes, Texas is very happening, and it's going to be very interesting to see. One thing that we did get told, though, that we were allowed to share is the Electric Playground Company. This is a new company. If you want to check out their website, it's just teppinball.com. go check it out. They're getting ready to unveil something at Texas. If you haven't seen their original Godzilla topper, it's pretty amazing for two dudes out of their garage, right? I sent this both over to you, Joel and Scott. What did you think of this topper, this Godzilla topper? I was really, I actually, I saw somebody posted a picture of something. And cause I'm in the Godzilla thread and I saw the topper and I reached out to the guy. I was like, what is that topper? And then he sent me contact information with another guy. They didn't have a website. It was just like background, reach out to a guy and he, and he shot me a price, told me it was a limited run that they were doing, sent me a bunch more pictures. And it's, it's incredibly well done. Um, layered plastics with metal brackets. Like it doesn't look like it looks professional and there's light. It's like integrated into, he sent me the install guide. Like you, you plug it into different switch. So different lights go off. And that's something I'm finding more and more. one of the reasons I really like the actual Stern toppers is the light integration or the integration of the topper with the game. Obviously Cactus Canyon does that incredibly well, more than just something stagnant that's just sitting on top of the machine. So I was super impressed by it. The only reason I didn't pull the trigger is one, I don't know what Stern's making, so I don't know if it's going to be better or worse. And two, a lot of, it was art pulled directly from the game. So it was zombie Yeti art that was pulled from the cabinet. So it looks great, but it's just like, well, this is artwork I already have. So let me wait to see what Stern does. But I will say I was thoroughly impressed by it, thoroughly impressed by what I saw. What do you think, Scott? Yeah, the integration was great. The light show. Yes, this is where you're walking that fine line of if they are going to transition, or it sounds like they're planning on it, into a mod company of some sort, you're going to have to start dealing with outside the fan art realm. Like if you're doing something for yourself and then the licensors don't really look too much at like a one-off project that you're doing for your own game, but if you're actually going to market it, then you start getting into, well we either need to make our own art or license some sort of art and it's unlikely that stern will license their art to a third party so that's uh that's one of the challenges however i i'm with joel i like having interaction i like having the dynamic uh light show with the toppers as opposed to just an illuminated thing that's the reason why the medieval madness topper is so great and it's a stagnant topper but it has this interactive light show that that grabs your attention and even the you know you know uh the attack from mars i still love that one because it jumps up and down but that's what i'm looking for in a topper and you know what to be to be fair i i was impressed with the mandalorian topper but that was a price too far for me yeah and and so like where's that sweet spot of like these because you have these elite toppers that are like 1500 or 2500 and you saw the one that for our um was for pirates of the caribbean oh yeah and hot and like those were really impressive the indiana jones one with 24 karat gold or whatever it was yeah don't touch it but it looks great yeah no no it looked it looked great but at some point you're thinking wow like that's half a game yep oh yeah i thought this topper looks amazing this godzilla topper this is how good it is it fooled people in the community to make them think this was the official topper coming out from start that's how good this topper was and so if you're producing that top of quality i can't wait to see what they have at texas pinball festival because they're coming with a new topper for a classic Bally Williams game. And it's going to be a showstopper. I'm excited to see what they're going to do. And the titles in the 90s are going to have a little more flexibility for using or for at least contracting your own art or doing something that that blends well with the art on the cabinet already. Yeah, you don't it's not you don't have to do like a specific character or person or something. I mean, you can make it fit in, but I know the reason that one topper looks so good is because it is Zombie Yeti's art. So I know they're kind of sketching a fine line there of pulling, you know, using art that they didn't produce, but it looked, it blended in perfectly with the cabinet, and that's where I struggle with some after mods. You know, any mod that I put on a game, I want it to feel like it could be original with the game. And that's, you know, art blades are another thing where if I don't like the stern art blades, like Deadpool, I there's so much red in the game already. The Deadpool art blades are just solid red, essentially, unless you have an L.E. And so I was looking at every other version of the art blade possible. And it just bothered me because the art style, even though it's Deadpool, it's it's a different art style that stood out. So I ended up going mirror blades because I just couldn't justify going with a different art style. But it now it's the the interesting thing is with this topper. You notice they actually had a third party translate in there. yeah yeah and so so that was interesting because they didn't uh that does switch up the art a little bit but i'm with you joel it's it can be a little challenging i want it to feel like it's married oh yes and so and i actually have the alternative back glass in my medieval madness uh the one that brian allen did um and i got the art blades that he did too because mine you know i just wanted to make it a little different uh but it feels it feels like it's all one package so i like that but well that brings up like so cactus canyon if i'm looking at the sc plus the sc plus doesn't come with art blades the le does he does and they don't cact um chicago gaming doesn't sell those art blades yeah so i'm like crap i can't get art blades from the company that match this art style so then you're looking at fly lane designs which are that art is incredible yeah but it's like well, if I'm going to have that art style in the Art Blades, then I better swap out the Translight so that I can get some sort of cohesive, you know, art thing going and, I don't know, you know, first world problems. But these are the things I think about, and I haven't even bought the game. Yep. The toppers, I'm with you. I am willing to pay money for a topper as long as it looks like it could have come with the game. Yep. Yeah. I agree. I have taken the plunge. Scott, you've taken the plunge. Once you get in the topper world, prepare yourself because you're stuck. You're stuck. You have to get a topper, and that's what's silly is if I'm thinking to myself, I want to get a CGC game, well, I can't get a Monster Bash unless I get an LE, and I'm not going to pay that much for it. And the aftermarket toppers don't work. It's a silly game. Part of me was just sell all my toppers so I can get back out of it and feel free again. But at the same time, I love them. Like the, I really do think if you get a good one that integrates well with the game, it's worth it. Hey, Joel, don't tell anyone, but I still have a black night topper in the box. You're just ready. You're ready to go. Yeah. But I will say like back, I know we've already moved on, but the cactus Canyon topper, it legitimately adds something to the game. The knock sound that it makes every single time that you shoot something. And then the video mode, that's actually a physical mode. it's like the lights associate with the you you shoot the people out of the windows and stuff it is it's so like in my mind black knight topper's cool but this this is probably right number one with when it comes to toppers okay so to me it's like i've got if i can buy the game with that and it adds that much to the game i would if i was if i was buying a cactus canyon right now i would go se plus or le period i i would definitely say it's tied for me because I love the Attack from Mars topper. Okay, yes, that's really good. That is so good. So just all CGC toppers. They've all tied for one. Okay, but let's talk about the difference because CGC toppers, they have, it is like a diorama. Yeah. And they put into it to make it look really impressive. And I can't even remember what the Medieval Madness topper was Because I got all those kits and I basically made mine the Royal Edition. The only thing is I don't have it powder coated yet. But it's a 3D sculpt and it looks really good. This has always been my slight complaint on toppers. is that when it looks like it's um it's basically layered plastics that could be on some sort of sales display at walmart like a you know you know you you have those end caps right and you go and you're like oh uh godzilla dvds are for sale oh yeah there's an advertisement on top with basically a 3D cut out plastic that advertises Godzilla. Okay, that's what it looks like. That's not what the Chicago Game Company toppers look like. And so they look amazing. They're so professional. And I mean, all mine are in the basement, and I have two very young kids that are down here. And in my mind, one thrown ball in the wrong direction, there's a good chance some of my stern toppers would crack or break. I'm pretty sure I could take the topper off and drop it, and it wouldn't break. It is so well built. And I don't know. It's just one more area. I know I just sound like a fanboy and a huge shill, but it one more area that I was just not prepared for how good that game is Yeah I want to move on to 2 kits are becoming just standard they releasing more and more i know last year at tpf they talked about uh mirko is doing a totan a tales of the arabian nights it's officially licensed from planetary pinball but one that was sent to us last month from cardona pinball is no good gophers 2.0 and it is officially licensed I'm kind of surprised no one's talking about this. I want to give my first impression since you guys want to hear us on this last one. Go ahead. I have a love-hate relationship with this thing. Okay. I'm just looking at it. I don't mind the chipmunk. If you guys haven't looked at this, go to cardonapinball.com, C-A-R-D-O-N-A, pinball.com. and the two animals that they picked for the gophers one you could kind of write off as a gopher it looks like more like chipmunk from uh chip and dale rescue rangers right and then the other one is like a naked mole rat mixed with the pit bull that's the best way i can explain it i don't know what they were going for here maybe a hairless woodchuck i don't know it kind of throws me off so much that it's kind of off-putting but watching the gameplay and stuff it gameplay looks fun uh it's kind of hard to tell exactly what everything's doing but this seems to be the route and it makes me wonder you know eclectic gamers podcast had talked about on their last episode of rumor corner cgc potentially losing the licensing from planetary pinball and that's why they're moving on to uh just doing their own thing that's you know the rumor has been pulp fiction and if that's the case this cardona pinball kind of shows why you want someone as quality as cgc doing your games we've talked about how amazing these toppers are how quality the games are the build is amazing i think you start if you start uh giving out licenses to whoever wants them not saying this is a terrible product but it doesn't match up to what a cgc project a product is and so i do want to play this just because it's pinball i'm really intrigued to see what people are coming out with the 2.0 kits because some of them are really standing up and looking great and some of them are falling a little bit short but it's still a new way to bring your old game into a modern era i don't know what's what's your guys's thoughts i i have two questions okay how many no good gophers are on the market right now is this did you look this up or is this like a no is this gear for people who are who already have it have the game because part of me says if you already have the game then you still like the game typically and are you going to go out and buy a classic Bally Williams for and i would say that and no good gophers is probably a b title yeah it's not an a title it's not adam's family or a uh or twilight zone or something like that but it's it's a solid player uh game that is limited by that now i don't even say it's a c title i i just okay yeah i don't see people clamoring for no good gophers i just don't so so that's the that's the challenge is that okay well then you have that also So we talked about this before. If you want it to look – so no good gophers, the estimated value is $5,200. I just looked it up. And so you buy that, and then you buy another one that's this thing that's $2,000. And I would say that the back glass looks like that chipmunk a little bit. But getting back to what we talked about with toppers, this doesn't look like it would be obviously produced by the people who made the game in the first place. Yes. Whereas Funhaus 2.0 – That's what I was about to say. Funhaus 2.0 looks like it could slide right in there and do that. So is that – now, is that a drawback? No, but your market is very limited because you're doing a reboot of a 30-year-old game. And what's your return on investment? How many of these do you have to sell to break even? Because it costs a lot of money to do that, to do animations. I would assume anybody that's doing these, it is a passion project because, sure, if they were smart, they would – and I'm not saying they're dumb. But if they were doing the market research, you would think they would be doing kits on games that there's a ton of them out there and they're super well liked. So no, no, no good gophers is an interesting choice. So I'm assuming it is some sort of passion project. I mean, I know like Scott Danesi, he had an Earthshaker and did like his own version of Earthshaker code. If that was today. Sure. He could have teamed up with somebody and sold that, you know, the modifications that he made as a package if he wanted to. my view on the 2.0 code though is i kind of feel like that's what you're gonna get with cactus canyon you know like with the lineman code that will be a 2.0 version of a code set but i also feel if you own some of these older games and you love those older games like they are stuck in your collection it would be hard pressed for me if i love no gold no good gophers it would be hard pressed for me to almost not want to buy that kit because it's already a game i love so if you're telling me I can add more to it. If I, you know, it's, it's holding up a spot in my, on my lane. If I, if I can go deeper with that, with that code set, part of me would really want to. And there's, there's a few games like taxi. I love the game taxi, but it's hard for me to justify having one of my lineup. But if I knew there was a taxi 2.0 version where it's like, crap, you're telling me I can bring in modern light shows, potentially modern sound, or if they swap it out with some sort of dmd like if you can make that game more modern but still be the original game as well like i don't know i see the appeal there like i'm surprised like uh tales of the rabia night like that makes sense why they did that uh funhouse makes sense um no good gophers is kind of surprised but it's not enough for me to want to go buy that game i don't if i don't like the main game itself i'm not expecting the 2.0 game to like i don't know just blow it out the water to revitalize it yeah yeah well and what's interesting to me is these other 2.0 kits so funhouse there was over 10 000 of those games produced bride of pinball over 8 000 totan's a relatively low number at 3500 or like 3200 and it's really weird to me you pick no good gophers that had 1700 i'm just a passion project that's the only that's the only thing I can think of. But if that's the case, I don't know. It's weird to me to officially, officially license it when it's a passion project and, and may it's a starting point. Who else is doing it though? I guess no one else is. Right. Is this a calling card? If you're paying, if you're paying the licensing fee and they're like, well, you can give it a shot. Pay me my, pay me my royalties. No one else is asking for this. Yeah. It may be different if it were like, and no, okay. An MMR two point or a medieval madness two point or something along those lines where that. They must think it's good enough that more than one person, you know, anybody can make their own passion project. Right. And they don't have to license it. They just make they do whatever they want. But if they think it's good enough that they're like, hey, if we can sell five, 10, 50 of these kits or more, well, let's do it the right way. Let's not get in trouble doing it. Let's license it and see what the demand is. And this is a good test case to see what you can do with old games. Yeah. Or that's something where they could get, maybe it's a resume builder. Like I did this and then they're going to reach out to, I know JJP has like a coder position open right now. So if they can take that as a resume builder to go to an actual manufacturer, like, Hey, I did this. Like, I don't know. I have no idea, but I go good on them. If they're doing it the right way, they're getting a license. I hope they sell as many as they feel comfortable making and hope people love it. I agree. Well, And it's funny too because the world wouldn't 2.0. The guy that was making that and was going to license it and then he got shot down because it sounds like there's R1 in the making. I don't know. I guess if you're looking to make a 2.0 kit, it's not super hard because we have the P3 system. You can code it yourself, polish it up, make it look good, hire an artist. This might be a great way to make some side money in the pinball hobby. and in my opinion it doesn't look like um planetary pinball is very picky on who they're they're choosing and that's not a shot at well i'll push back on that we don't have enough information to judge this and we only have the video to judge it on true we haven't played it it's like we were talking about before with cactus canyon like you want the game to feel cohesive and I don't feel like the characters that they've produced for No Good Gophers 2.0 is cohesive with the original art and intention of the original game. Simple as that. You don't want to add anything. So, like, I know you're probably sick of me saying it, but, like, Cactus Canyon, if the rumored thing is potentially adding doors, like barn doors or saloon doors in front of Bart. So my thought is, like, I don't want them to change anything about the current code right now. Like I want there to be the, still the way to play the original code set. So I'm curious if there's a physical thing added to the game, are those saloon doors just always going to be open? You know, like I don't want them, I don't want now that to be something that's added to the original code. Maybe it will, I don't know, but that's my thing with some of these 2.0 kits. If I have to add something physical to the game, I want it to still feel cohesive enough that I could play the original game, which I love. And that's why I own it. Right. Whether it's whatever game it is, but I don't want you to add something that now, you know, if it's a screen and it's just black, when you play the original game, then all of a sudden you feel like, well, I don't want to stare at a black screen. I'm going to always play the 2.0 version. I don't want to lose the original version, you know? So you want, you want whatever you're adding to feel cohesive, but then also be able to flip a switch or whatever and go to the 2.0 and then feel something new. Yeah. Yeah. It's probably hard to do. I don't, I don't, I don't really know. once you add a DMD or something and add some sort of video assets, it's going to be hard to do. But if that's something that I do like about the CGC games, though, of just changing the lights, going from a regular light to an RGB light and just adding that light show, you know, it feels modern, but you're not changing the core of the game. You're also playing that retro card where they updated the dots. So it still is a DMD game, but it's kind of a modern retro feel on it. Yes. And just a random side note on that, my view, these XL displays are so well done that anytime people talk about why don't they do a Tron rerun or a Lord of the Rings rerun, to be honest, I do not want, if they redid Lord of the Rings, I would not want them to bring in movie assets. I would want them to do something like that. Give me an XL display. Give me a bigger colored version of a DMD. Keep your animations, just polish them a little more, and then we don't have to deal with the licensing of character rights or all that. Same with Tron. Could you imagine a Tron remake with that XL display and high-quality dots? It would be insane. It would be so great. Or Walking Dead. Do a Walking Dead, but do comic book art style with that type of huge display in it. I mean, sign me up. That would be so great. but I don't that's seeing a game like that that to me it's like I don't if Stern or somebody else was going to remake some of their older games you don't have to bring in the LCD screen but you could make the DMD that much better yes you can modernize the DMD by still keeping it period consistent yeah it's a dot matrix display still but make those dots colored and give me more of them and bigger like and light the speakers up while you're at it because that's awesome too. So speaking of extra large displays, Joel, you sent this to us. We have a chat going on with us and Travis and Tom, and it was an extra large display for the Stunt Games. Oh, yeah. I saw this and I thought, this is a really cool concept, but the first hang-up is it changes the shape of your speakers. Like, I don't know if this comes with speakers. I should have developed a little speaker. It does. So like with me, I'm getting ready to put a pin woofer kit in my Godzilla. And I wouldn't want to to subtract the pin woofer kit to add the extra large. Yes. So this is very interesting because I don't know. It's I've I've had this mentality. If I have a small collection and I have four of them, I and I know this game is, quote unquote, bolted. I don't have problems making it the best version of that game I can. That's why I like powder coating or adding a topper or anything. I don't mind investing more in the game. So I'm a huge fan of speaker light kits. And so when I saw that initial thing, it's like, well, shoot, if I want to make my Godzilla premium as good as I possibly can, sure, a bigger screen. Why would I not do that? Well, for me to add three inches to the screen, I would have just lost my burning city speaker light kits. Like that's a loss that I'm not, that's a compromise I'm not willing to take. But I'd be curious if these Excel screens catch on, it would be interesting to see if like Doug at Speaker Light Kits now makes a kit specifically for this. Or if the Penwoofer team, amazing people over there, if all of a sudden they make a kit. It's whether or not other mod makers will adapt if this screen. But it's $650. It's made by a company over in Spain, I think, Madrid. It's an all-complete package. It looks like you basically unbolt your current LCD panel that has the speakers in it. You unplug a few things, you unbolt that, you bolt in this new thing, plug it back in. Boom. Now your screen is three inches bigger and your speakers, instead of being a four inch speaker, they are nicer than the stock speakers, but it's more of like an oval shape instead. So I bet it's great. I, if they, if they're smart and they have a few at TPF, there will be people that will buy one for every one of their Stern games. But if you're a speaker light guy, speaker light kit guy, it's going to be, you're going to lose those unless somebody decides to adapt and make their own kits for it yep all right so we're kind of running down to the wire i wanted to take a small jab at zach many for a second because he was talking about pinball market trends being the best segment out of any way ball pocket you're saying that wrong pinball bucket trends yes flawless and i'm going to remind him that we have our own called segment still and he totally passed up triple drain or triple combo right i know right right and so in honor of that i'm going to do a segment still tonight and i put on here market trends but i'm shifting gears because since we have a guest on i'm put scott and joel engelberth head to head oh i was not prepared oh wow yes this is not no i wasn't prepared for any of this wait a second i'm gonna put on my loser kid hat okay okay and in honor of the thing head to head we're going to bring back the top 100 if you're not familiar with this game we're going to take a random number generator of one through 100 Scott's going to get a number Joel's going to get a number And that is their game that they have to But you have to argue it You argue it Okay, but Okay, 1-100 is huge It's looking good Okay Okay, alright Okay, let's do it Let's do it Alright We're doing Pinside, right? Yeah, Pinside top 100 I've got the random number generator up right now Do you guys want to rock, paper, scissors Who gets the first number? Or do you just I'm going to let Joel Because he's the guest okay that's so that is incredibly kind okay ready yeah rolling 82 82 oh i'm gonna have to scroll down for that one pinbot pinbot god okay yeah okay okay and that who is that joel's or is that scott's joel's because he's he's first okay all right i'm rolling again 48 what did he get oh star wars oh oh my goodness this one actually pretty good okay this is star wars versus pinball let me remind everyone the rules we're going to do 30 seconds a piece the first round you are solely talking about your game okay you are welcome to use the flyer if you like uh you're welcome to personal experience whatever you want to do and then the second round you can either talk your game up more you can tear down the other person's game or you can defend so if if they make a statement or no it's it's attack or build it up and then i think there's one final round and you can either defend your statement essentially it's your your rebuttal yeah yeah your rebuttal so ready for this magic let's do it so joel you'll go first you are talking about Pinbot, your 30 seconds starts now. Alright, so first and foremost, I am incredibly surprised that Pinbot is this low on the list because this is a incredibly classic well well game It has some pretty revolutionary mechs that are unforgettable I mean we just start at the top First, it has a topper. It has a topper. This was an early game to have a topper, and it interacts with the game incredibly well. You go a little further below that, the back glass has visor that when you get to certain points in the mode, all of a sudden these eyes appear, so you know when you're playing the game. All right, 30 seconds. That was so fast. But hey, the top half of the game is incredible, apparently. Yeah, yeah. It really is good. All righty, Scott. And just to remind everyone, Joel has pinball and Scott has Star Wars. And this is the Stern Star Wars. Yep. So on your mark, Scott, go. Okay, if you have a dream theme that you've always wanted to be made into pinball, I have the game for you. You plunge it and it immediately goes down the middle. You have a fork ramp on the left side that only works about three, four, like one third of the time. You have a supercharger that you get to see maybe twice in the game. I mean, it's stripped down. It has a TIE fighter on a string. You're talking about everything that you want in a game that is your dream theme. And you should buy – you definitely shouldn't buy the comic book version. You need to buy the clip art version. Hey, way to keep it in time, man. Yeah. Nailed it. Okay. So round two, Scott and Joel can either defend their game or they can attack the other person's game. I would like to continue to talk about how great my game is because I would like to get to the play field. You actually get to the play field. I'm showing you time right now. Thank you. Yes. We were talking earlier about how much people like bash toys. You bash down a visor. You have a physical ball lock. You have two of them. It's incredibly easy to know and see what you need to do. It's just, I don't know. It's super easy to understand game. Unlike Star Wars, which you have no idea what you're doing, it's a ton of flashing lights. If the ball is still in play after your plunge, you're just going to flail around and hope you hit something to see more movie clips that you want to see of that game. Not to mention you're going to be bashing the action button most of the time you're playing, trying to get more TIE fighters. But Pinbot, on the other hand, you're hoping for Dirty Pool. You're hoping to get a ball stuck in there. you're hoping to see the visor go off it's a great light show there's no confusion okay 30 seconds three seconds i don't know i don't jury star wars is a great game i'll tell you that i need you to stricken the last 25 seconds yeah do not do not factor that in absolutely oh i was way over again yeah yeah oh i thought you said three seconds i thought you were like 30 seconds i think you're like telling me to like like counting me down oh i'm very sorry so take away everything negative I said about Star Wars. Completely forget that. And focus on how great Pinbot is. You can do about 10 seconds. You actually did really well in keeping... You got some negative in there about Star Wars. Alright. You ready, Scott? Yeah. Go. Okay. Pinbot, if you want a game that you shoot straight up the middle and get a drain straight down the center, I've got the game for you. Not only does it have five targets that you are shooting for that are guaranteed to drain straight down the middle but you also have some random ramp on the left side and maybe some drop targets so i this is a game that only screams you want to put one quarter in me because otherwise you will walk away and then try to find flash okay 30 seconds okay in hindsight this might have been a bad idea to give scott star wars well a random number is a random number man it's random yeah That's true. It's true. All right. You had to calculate it about five times to get Star Wars 2 for me. See, when you say and 30 seconds, I think 30 seconds to go. Oh, no, no. And time. No. I should say and time. Okay. So this is your final round. You are welcome to defend your game in rebuttal, or if you want to take one final bow, you can. You ready? Joel, go. Sure. I mean, I think Scott described his game incredibly well. I really don't have anything else to say about his game. But what I will say is Pinbot is well-loved. It was well-loved so much that they made two additional versions of the game. It's a non-licensed theme that only grew from its original game. And it's, I don't know, it's a fantastic game. People love it. I don't know how much time I have, but I don't even have to say anything about Star Wars. We'll just say eight seconds of silence. Eight seconds of silence. Hey, in that eight seconds, you could plunge twice and drain on Star Wars. Time. all right scott you ready to wrap this up yes okay go okay i i take offense that you're saying that you can only plunge two balls in eight seconds on star wars you could plunge the whole game under eight seconds because they'll just go straight down the middle also the death start like never really works like nothing actually happens it's like an egg that's cracking open Like what's your defending your game in there? I mean, is this, uh, man, if there were, if there was a more disappointing implementation of my dream thing, I could not possibly present it. Oh my goodness. So is this where we like let the user vote and we wait to see who won after two weeks? So we'll talk about the results in two weeks, but now it is your turn. Listener. We're going to kick this to you on Facebook. That's where we're going to do the poll. But if you will, please go on our Facebook actually do Facebook and, and Instagram. We'll do, we'll do both. And cause I know that there's not some crossover there. So let's do it on both. And you can either choose Joel's argument for pin bot or Scott's argument for Stern star Wars. And I mean, I think Scott's argument with star Wars was pretty accurate. I just think he was going in the wrong direction. I will say in fairness, Star Wars was a game that I was on the Ellie list for. And when I saw it revealed, I said pass. And I don't look back on that. Are we allowed to share our honest opinions now? Yeah, go ahead. I will say, to be honest, I've owned Pinbot and it was the fastest game I sold. I bought it in a three package deal and I had it for less than two weeks. And it wasn't that I wasn't bad. It was like, this is a fun game, but there's so much nostalgia towards that game that I don't have. That I was like, this game, it's fun. I see why people like it, but I don't have any attachment to it. So I'll sell it to somebody who does. And it sold within a day. There was a mom and her son that came, and they were so excited to get that game. So I get it. I get why it's well-liked. I just don't. It was the fastest game out of my collection. While Star Wars, I've never cared for it because it's always kicked my butt on location, but we did stream it the night before the Pinball Awards, and actually having somebody explain the rules to me, I get that the rules are actually incredibly well done. I think Dwight did a good job with the rules, but it's not something you're just going to walk up and just immediately understand what to do. I will say that in fairness, my friend Garrett Ledger, who's out here, he says Star Wars is one of his favorite games. So I need to go and spend more time on Star Wars. It could be that just the one that I was playing on was so wickedly hard set up that I just I didn't feel like it was fun at all. Now, Garrett also said he didn't like Godzilla. So take that take that into account. But if you can't keep the ball alive long enough to experience any of the code or rules, then it's not a fun game. It doesn't matter how good the game is. OK, here's the problem with Star Wars. Here's I have it pinpointed to a T. I think everyone else has said this. The problem is everyone steps up to a game and they usually full plunge on a game. Oh, yeah. And if you full plunge on Star Wars, you're just right into those stand-up targets and you're dead. Yeah. And so your first natural instinct, it just automatically kills your first ball. And if you're not paying attention, you're like, well, I'll just do that again. The next thing you know, your game is over before you even really started. and so you have to get used to soft plunging on that game to even really experience that game i think that's the problem is people just kind of bull moose in and and they can't experience the game and it's hard to get it under control once you get under control it's somewhat enjoyable but i think that's the hardest part when you can't even really start the game you don't want to play the game okay this is also the same thing with um oh octoberfest okay so you have this really cool wire form that is so amazingly hard to actually get going in the game okay and it's the same thing with the supercharger yes it it happens or not the supercharger it's the hyperloop the hyper, whatever. Yeah. But it's, it's not easy to actually get things going in that. And so the one, like the cool visual thing that you have, it doesn't draw you back because it's so hard to start. Like, you know, with, with medieval madness, you can destroy the castle in three shots. It's really the first entrance. And so people are like, Oh, that's cool. And yeah, then it gets harder in the game, But there should be a little bit more of a do the cool thing in Star Wars. Yeah. Then I have to give credit to Ryan McQuaid, who's now hired at American Pinball, because one of his intro interviews, he made the comment of one of my theories is I never want to hide mechanical fun behind code. and that's something that it's like yeah that that hyper loop you got to do a lot of things and then hit some hard shots to experience the cool huge mech that's across the whole playfield so yeah if a novice gets up there and goes how do i do this good luck it's probably not going to happen yeah no i agree this is gonna be an interesting one honestly from the community because pinball like you said joel pinball is so iconic but the original version was very limited to its time. I think that's why Jackbot is loved. Jackbot, and then you have Bride of Pinbot. Actually, I prefer Bride of Pinbot. It's a more fun game. I like Jackbot. I think that, especially with some of the, if you're able to lock both balls and then shoot into the casino shot, you get a super Jackbot Jackpot. There's some really cool rules to it. I think it was a great upgrade from the original. And so it has a little more last ability in the collection. Sure. Okay. I still think Scott had the better argument. He just was arguing against his own game. Well, it's going to be interesting to see what they say, and we'll post those results next episode. I think that pretty much wraps it up for everything we were going to talk about. Joel, thanks for coming on and joining us. The triple loser kid pop uh whatever this is great and uh shout out to uh so you can catch joel on his own show which is triple drain pinball and streaming joel how else can i get a hold of you and then tell who else is on your uh your podcast with you yeah so uh triple drain pinball podcast travis murray and tom graff have a great time with that lots of laughs we do video now so you You can check that out on the pinball network on YouTube video, Josh, except it's fun scratching your nose. No, it's fun. It's a little more work, but it, uh, people like it on YouTube. Um, or you listen to the pinball network. Uh, it's a triple drain. It's on that, on any podcatcher you listed that you listen to. And then I stream for flipping out on the flipping out YouTube channel, not on Twitch, on YouTube every Wednesday night, 10 to midnight Eastern standard time. And we rotate between actually streaming pinball and then doing a flipping out with friends, which is like a chatting stream where I grab four other people or three other people. And we just try to chat it up and talk news and go through a bunch of stuff. And that's a good time. And you can see all those live videos on, on the flipping out YouTube page. You just have to click the live tab instead of the video tab, but you'll see them there. You forgot to mention Scott. He's like on everything. So you've got triple drain. You've got just another pinball. He's overexposed. Flipping out stream. I love talking pinball. Yeah, flipping out with friends. But yes, the Just Another Pinball podcast, those are just interviews at this point. And I just love talking pinball. I love knowing how things are made. So if I can interview people like designers and just try to get in their headspace of how they did what they did, I love it. I love those conversations. And same thing with I just love talking pinball. I love being with people and talking pinball. So when you guys send me the put up the bat signal at whatever, 10 o'clock at night on a Friday, hey, you want to record a podcast? and my wife is super comfortable on a couch staring at her phone, the answer is yes, I will gladly hop on your podcast and talk pinball. And I will say the triple drain shirt is one of the coolest shirts. Thank you. Shout out to Jackson Gee. Yeah, the Hydra. It looks amazing. You could put that on the Godzilla alternative back glass. He was a joy to work with, yes. I got to ask, Joel, how does it feel to be inducted into the GOAT Club? you're sitting there watching District 82 and Keith's wearing Triple Drain and Loser Kid on the stream it feels good it's good not only is it cool to see somebody like that wear your merch but also to know they're a fan is very awesome it's way awesome so we really appreciate that and you know I still gloat about Joel but it was so cool meeting you for the first time at Pinball Olympics last year at Pinball Expo and it just was fun casual great casual time, you know, and, and still there's one moment that stuck out to me. You were driving us back cause you were nice enough to shuttle us from banger Jay's house, which is an hour away from, and you're like, it's like having a live podcast in my back. Oh yeah. Yeah. I was listening to you guys on the drive to Chicago and then to be driving around Chicago and have you in the car. It was kind of surreal, but, um, but no, I know I will be at Texas pinball festival. So with the triple drain guys, I know you guys won't, which is unfortunate. but hey Chicago pinball expo in October I should be there as well so yeah it should be a great time next year I'll be planning on doing Texas uh my wife just had to go to Taylor Swift I get it man life happens yeah I've got to give one more jab though before we leave Travis pinball awards you took third you took third because of your vote and to David Dennis of all people yeah really I don't know I think he I think David needs it more than we do I think he just, I don't know, a lot less tears for him, I think. I don't know. Travis still has the, he's in the Hall of Fame for having the double zero ball. Forever. Forever. If he's never going to forget it, we're not going to let him. I was in a tournament last week, and that happened, the double zero happened. I think it was Simpson's pinball party, and I was like. Okay, that's not hard to happen on Simpson's pinball party. I was shocked, though. I was. Yeah. It's impressive that somebody can pull a plunger four times and manage to not score a single point. But Travis found a way. He found a way to do it. And not only did he do it, he did it in the finals against Keith Escher and Jason. A lot of people watching, but that's fine. I mean, it's awesome. I mean, you know what? Travis is that good. He just wanted to spot them. It's like, I can do this with two balls. Yeah, I don't need the first one. Yeah. We'll go with that. Why not? According to your Insider Connected, the first ball is always the loser ball, right? Yep. It's the ball three. It's the house ball three ball. Well, if you want to get ahold of this, we are loser kid pinball podcast at loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com. If you want to find us on the socials, we are at loser kid pinball on Facebook, Twitch, Instagram, Twitter. And now on YouTube, we have a channel. Maybe we'll do something. I don't know, Scott, we'll, we'll figure it out. It'd be fun to do some video. These guys are pushing us. And yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up for us. Give us the last word, Scott. see you on Triple Dream Thank you. Shut up and sit down. Bye. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v1)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: fbc3fa81-2454-4543-bba3-1afd1c316863*