the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast so why did you start it right now just to confirm we it is 336 336 we were supposed to start at 3 tom had some technical difficulties we worked through all that we figured it all out it had to be travis i hit the button and i was like okay let's just go i thought we were ready to go and And Travis goes, oh, wait, I should probably set up. 37 minutes. What are you talking about? I told you I had to get my desk. Can you please raise your chair? You look absurd. I can barely see him. Oh, I know. That's kind of good, actually. It's good. But it's been a while. I'll do the podcast like this the whole entire time. Why not? Tom, how are you doing? You good? You ready to go? I think I'm okay. I think you look great. You look great. You look great, sound great. That's all we can ask for. That's all that matters. Travis, are you alive? The desk is going too high. What? The desk isn't moving. Your chair is moving. It's not supposed to go this high. Look at this. What is going on? Okay. Roll the theme song. We're three guys who like the talking ball. So we came up with a clever name We're Joel and Travis, Don, Luke, Tom, and Paul And we call ourselves Triple Drink Triple Drink Triple Drink We're Triple Triple Drink Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. He figured it out. You just stood up. You stood up. That's what you did. I really wish I could say this is like a planned bit, but we really are just that stupid. Don't include me in this. Don't, don't. Tom didn't do anything wrong. You were the producer. You started it without telling us. Everywhere I walk into, I've done something wrong. Tom, do you see how this plays out every time? I do. It's like clockwork. We're not ready to start, and then Joel just starts it like la-di-da, and then just makes fun of us for not being ready. Because we've got to get going. We've got to get going. Oh, because you have dinner. Joel has dinner plans. I have, yes. Okay, it's Friday. Where are you even going to eat? Where are you guys taking the golf cart tonight? My wife is cooking, but she's like, we're eating at 5. but then we got to take the kids out. They're doing a sleepover at Nana's house tonight. We got volleyball tonight. Nicole and I, we've got a whole night. It's going to be great. It's great Friday night. So happy Friday. Volleyball tonight. You mean like volleyball? Yeah. Yeah. We still play. It's very competitive. You don't blow out your knees doing that. No, I'm, I drink my milk and my wife's in Florida with two of my kids right now, taking one to college. And then next, next weekend I got to take Neil to college. I was going to, So you have a second college kid now. Yeah. And he's in Florida. He's going to University of South Florida. Dang. Wow. You're going to start seeing those LEs disappear pretty soon. That is very not Wisconsin. Good thing he has a partial scholarship. Awesome. Awesome. Well, congrats. Yay, education. All right. Stuff to talk about. Take us through it. What's number one? I apologize once again for being – it's been quite a long time since we recorded. If you didn't notice, the summer months are typically a lull with news as well as we're busy. We've been busy with stuff. What are you talking about? There was news yesterday. Yeah, we kept trying to get you to podcast this whole time, Joel. Look at him just throwing us under the bus. It was me. Can't we just talk as friends? You're right. Well, we talk as friends almost every day on Facebook. That's true. To get on a call and to make sure Travis's camera is charged and everything. It takes a long – it's a lot of prep. It's a lot of prep, but we're here. We're here. Imagine. Let's enjoy the moment. I don't have a good transition here, but it's – Haggis is dead. Haggis is dead. They're gone. They're – I was like, yeah, let's enjoy the moment. Joel kills another company, everybody. It's me. I have – Coming in hot. It's not my fault. It's not my fault. I've touched a haggis machine one time at Texas Pinball Festival. I played, I think, two games on FAB. And you know what? Honestly, it was awesome. It was great. Oh, Tom got his gun plastic from Stern. They send that to you. That was a separate thing you had to ask for that? My distributor sent it to me. Thank you very much. Nice. Okay, good. You want to give him a shout out? I don't know who your distributor is. I mean, it was actually from Stern, actually. He told me it was coming. Okay. All right. You know what's not coming, Haggis? Anything from Haggis. No, screw that. It was from my distributor. Something's coming from Haggis. Nope. Geek Pink Games rules. Oh, man. Sorry, guys. Okay. Well, if – I don't know. We don't have to talk a ton about it, but yeah. Haggis is dead. Haggis is dead. And I genuinely feel sorry for anybody that had money invested in it that they're getting nothing out of it. I know Tom knows a few people that had games on order. I mean, could you imagine if you put in for the five games? Yeah, and got one of five? Or none. I know. I know. I can't. I can't imagine. I do think, well, I know like Dennis and Tony with Eclectic Gamers, they always say, you know, don't buy a game until the game is in the box. Don't pay for a game. They're against the pre-order model entirely. And then I know Nick with Buffalo, Nick and Kevin, they've been preaching that as well. You know, don't wait until you play the game. No game is unobtainium. You may end up paying more for it later, but at least the game is there. And the longer that I've been in this hobby and the more that I've heard that preached, the more I'm starting to believe there's some validity to that. With all that said, there are companies like Spooky. Spooky sells out day one. They sell out of all their games basically day one, and then you've got to wait a week or a week, a year, a year for your game to be made. Because I know, like, Texas Chainsaw Massacres are still making them, Looney Tunes. I know Rick and Morty's took a long time. But, you know, there are companies like that. Oh, what about CGC? CGC is a great example. There are people that, what is it, October? Oh, Travis. Not my dog. Is that Monica? What did you do, Travis? Are you saying Monica's a dog? No, no. That is so wrong. That is so wrong. I am saying I've heard recently that Monica can get upset about little things that Travis does or doesn't do. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. She listens to this podcast and you are about to have a new roommate. Joel's just on a roll, isn't he? Joel is going to get his ass kicked the next time Monica sees him. Travis, what's your dog's name? I'll put it as a – well, I'll list him as a co-host for the episode. His name is CJ. CJ, okay. He must be very excited about something upstairs. Oh, there he is. Golden Retriever. He's Haggis, man. Haggis really pisses them off. He heard about pre-orders not being delivered. He's just furious. Okay. Okay, so anyways, I genuinely feel so bad for anybody that had money. Kerry Hardy's been doing a really interesting series on it that I've just been listening to. It's cinematic genius, Joe. Yeah, unfortunately I don't watch it at all because I just listen to it as a podcast. Because it's very Dateline TV. He really went in on the cinematography, pulling on the heartstrings. He did. there's some really valuable information and to listen to some of these collectors or some of these people that had money in and the ups and downs that they had with people I genuinely, I really feel for them. I need to stop talking about Haggis. CJ's really not happy about it. That dog is pissed about Haggis. He's like right above me. God, why can't we just have one professional podcast ever? Because that wouldn't be us. that wouldn't be us true um so i don't know and i also i mean i feel so bad for zach zach at flipping out i mean he really he really put his neck out um trying to you know but at the same time like good on flipping out for for making anybody that had a deposit with him whole i mean sure he's the one that had to take the hit but luckily i hope he really earned some buyers out of that or some respect from like, okay, well, he clearly, he protected me once. I'm going to keep going through them again. So I don't know. It's just a really unfortunate situation all around. And yeah, I hope, I'm very curious to see how it's going to end up finally being resolved. But it just, it sucks. It's unfortunate because the actual game that I played was beautiful. It played well. Like the product itself was pretty awesome and it just sucks that people aren't going to get it. It was an interesting thing because I remember we played the version of Fathom. I can't remember Tom if you were there with us, but I remember I played it with... I never touched it, sorry. Okay, so I played it with the Loser Kids then at Expo two years ago, I think, and it was well built. It played well. The 2.0 was interesting and I was pleasantly surprised by that. So at that point it's like okay it's it's starting out well they got you know the promos out and everything and it's a game that i think that enough people would enjoy and want to play it and it seemed like it was priced right now granted being over in australia and having to ship all the way over here there are challenges with that but i don't know i just i remember us talking about this last year whenever they announced centaur and we were just kind of like it's kind of odd that this got announced when it did, when they're still trying to put out fathoms and there's still people that have money put in, haven't seen it. And so, I mean, that just runs, you know, that runs a huge risk right there in terms of just putting money forward. So I don't know. I mean, on my end, I'm learning a lot through the, um, through the fun house project, how this all works and everything. And I'm seeing the amount of money that goes into it. Like if anybody ever doubts out there, how much money truly goes into just the R&D, the production, the raw materials, just paying people that work. There's so many people involved in these games, these projects. It's numerous. So just seeing the amount of money that it requires, it definitely gives me pause whenever I hear about companies that don't necessarily have the money up front and they do rely on pre-orders to start funding other things. I mean, it's like that in any industry, though. You got to be very careful of doing something like that because then you run into bottlenecks. You run into it everywhere and you put yourself in a corner. So unfortunately, it definitely appears that this is what has happened. You know, and I only know the amount about haggis based on what we read online, based on the videos and just hearing people talk about it. But other than that, it's just yeah, it's a shitty situation. And hopefully it gets resolved for the people that have money put in. Obviously may not happen. And if it doesn't, you know, hopefully it's just lessons learned once again. I mean, it's this seems to be something that happens from time to time just with people producing pinball machines. You know, it's brutal and it's almost it just I mean, one of the guys on Carrie's video basically said, you know, time is time. So it's going to kill you. It's the it's the fact that every day you're not making machine. All you're doing is losing money, like all you're doing is losing money. And that really just gives me a lot more respect for like, you know, we talk about with Stern, like Stern's got to keep the factory going. And it's because they have so many employees. They got everything going like they've got to keep that line moving. Otherwise, that's a negative day every single day that they're not making a machine that can be sold. And so it just it gives me a lot of respect for the companies that we know are busy that have the games, you know, pumping them out like CGC, even though it's going slow. they are pumping out games you know uh barrels of fun good on them like labyrinths are moving off the line they're they're doing their job um same with jjp same with you know american still makes games not like i was surprised they had a facebook post the other day of like they're making a hot wheels like i didn't i didn't know there was a big demand for those right now but they're making them so i don't know i um it's just it's unfortunate it's a negative it's a negative feeling overall in the hobby. And I just, I feel for anybody that lost out on money. And yeah, I hope, I hope something, I don't know. I don't know how that's going to resolve at all positive, but it is what it is. You know, just face facts in any industry, there's always going to be failures in any industry. Pinball's not unique in that where everything's just invincible, you know? And so it's just kind of one of those things that if you are a person that is interested in buying pinball machines and you're listening to a podcast, obviously you're really interested in pinball. You know, it's just lesson learned. Definitely go with, sometimes you can't just go with your gut. Sometimes you have to go with what is facts and the companies that have proven over years at a time. And so, I mean, that's why even again, with the Funhouse Project, it's perfectly acceptable to me. I wish we would get just orders left and right, just knocking down the doors. But at the same time, it's understandable, especially when dealing with Bally Williams stuff that people are kind of pausing like, OK, is this remake coming? Is it real? Is it here? Is it there? I mean, we still get that even though we've seen them manufactured in person before. So it's understandable. And it's just you know, it's just the way that it is until people can prove that they can be fully trusted, that they get a game out, then it's it's earned is what it becomes. So I think that's very important for any pinball pinball manufacturer out there is to continue to earn consumer trust and you do that moving forward. Like for instance, you said Spooky, like they have, you know, you can trust that they are going to produce the machine. Obviously Stern and JJP, we know that they will, but Spooky is a great example of this. You can trust that they will get it out. So I think the ones that are out there right now, they've all proven they can get it out. So until they prove otherwise, I think all those manufacturers that are currently out there are trustworthy manufacturers and worth, you know, taking a look at moving forward. I agree. Yeah. What I will say is I'm. I'm I have to admit something. I am somewhat distracted by Tom's background. And the reason being is look at all the expression lights. He's got so many expression lights and so many games. And the other thing that he has are speaker lights, speaker lights, guys. So first off, shout out to every Stern employee that listens to us, because I know those aren't Stern speaker lights. I mean, some of them are. You know, you had to say it because I'm shouting out the Stern employees right now, Tom. Okay. To the Stern. He's trying to suck up, Tom. Let's let him do his showing. What I'm saying is we had a really good conversation. It was either the last episode or the episode before about how awesome the Stern speaker, like Stern should do speaker lights. I'm assuming that's what he's showing. I don't know. Is that what you're showing? Box of Stern Expression Speaker Lighting Accessory Kit Pro Premium. Are you about to say that Stern decided to do speaker lights just because of our podcast and they managed to get it to market in two weeks? I mean, your words, not mine. But it sure seems like it. It sure seems like it. I'm just saying we had a whole conversation. I'd also like to give a shout out to Pin Monk because I'm going to take all the fans out of my computers or my power supplies so I don't have to hear them anymore. That's awesome. While I'm streaming. That's so great. Or podcasting. What I am saying, Travis, is Tom and I have been on Team Speaker Lights for a long time. And you were kind of like, I don't know. Do we sell units? I don't know. But now here we are. Speaker Lights. Yes, your game is up to date. Speaker lights. We got to hear the duck. Is there a new Godzilla code out that I'm unaware of? Yeah, there was like a couple of weeks ago. Oh, I just now turned on my game after a couple of weeks. Okay, proceed. You know what? The new code has new topper effects, which reflect in the speaker lights. So I think it's awesome. I think it's so cool that Stern's doing it. As of right now, it's already built into JAWS. It's already built into John Wick. They added support for Godzilla and Bond. Is there this clerk? So those are four games as of right now that there's speaker light code for. My assumption is they will continue, they did say, with more titles to come. So my assumption is they will do the majority of Spike 2, if not all of them. But I just, I'm such a sucker for cool lighting. And if the lighting can be integrated into the gameplay, I think that's awesome. I do want to warn people that the current... Imagine if they had under-cabinet lighting. Well, there's other mods you can see behind me that could tap into that and do that. I don't have the stern speaker lights yet because the kit right now, they advertise the kit as pro and premium. What they should be saying is this is a kit for four-inch speakers. It's like four and a quarter, four and a half, I don't know. It's the kit for the stock pro and premium speakers, which are four-inch speakers. If you have upgraded your speakers to a five-inch speaker, I think it's five and a quarter. That's pretty large. That is the same speaker that's in an LE. That's what Tom's used to. He likes those big speakers and that mirrored backlash. That's a lot of girth. Did we get a Stern speaker sponsorship that I'm totally unaware of? What is happening right now? I don't give shit. You guys get all the stuff. No, no, no. Obviously, I've got it all on there. I'm not being handed a Stern speaker kit. I'm going to pay for everything. I am going to buy a Stern speaker kit. Where Joel's going with it because he's talking about the Stern speaker lights, and then he says, I don't have one. I haven't bought. He totally bought. The reason I haven't bought. He probably has like 10 of them being sent to him right now. If I, you know. Show up on his doorstep. I haven't bought them because I upgraded my speakers. I need the LE kit. They haven't released the LE kit yet. That's true. I can't buy it. As soon as they have one for Avengers, I'm getting it, but it has Gomez. Do you hear that? There's still two other of us on triple drain. It's not just Joel and Tom and Travis. I'm sorry. What I said in the past, I was drunk. Okay. I'll just, are you saying the speaker lights are cool? Is what you're saying? I'm saying the speaker lights are awesome. It's a great idea. I'm not taking credit for it, but I do think Tom and I were saying is a good idea. I'm glad that other people think it's a good idea, and I think it's awesome. So I'm excited to add them to my games when they release the LE kit because I like to upgrade my speakers to 5-inch speakers. I actually have it in my John Wick that I'm pointing at right now that you can't see. So wait, just to clarify. It's not on because I don't want to burn out the game. That makes sense. So the Pro Premium is 4-inch and the LE is 5-inch? Is that what you just said? That's what she said. at least by that's why tom's an le guy all right so i'm gonna ask like i'm not even trying to ask this question but but i know it's i've got to ask you anyways because i want to know the answer so you guys do with it what you will okay does that extra inch really matter oh what's the difference like i'm actually asking do bigger speakers sound better than smaller speakers potentially depends on the quality of speakers but extra inch matters for the speakers boy hey tom i don't know I feel like the LE speakers sound better than the pro speakers I hear a drill every day I can hear anything Is this a classic case Yeah, that's what I mean. Does the size matter on them? I can't tell. So what's the benefit then, Joel, for waiting for the LE? Why are you waiting for it? I'm just going to keep Win Schilling here because I have pinwoofer speakers in mind. Those actually sound better. Those are not. Well, now we're talking about pinwoofers. Yeah, those are legit. Do I think the bigger speaker sounds better? I do. I also think the bigger speaker looks better. That's why they're in the LE, even if it's not. I do think it looks better. With all that said, I have seen the current kit with the 4-inch speakers, and it looks good. Like, it really does look good. So I just, what I'm trying to inform the listener is, I think it sounds great. I've been trying to inform the listener that if you have stock Pro or Premium speakers, buy the kits now. If you've upgraded your speakers or you have an LE, you've got to wait for the LE kit. That's all I'm saying. That's it. Is that good? Well, I look forward to us getting our free speakers after that 20-minute infomercial. I mean, it did start with Tom saying, those aren't free speakers. Okay, other things on the list. Yesterday, another big win from Stern released a ridiculous new mode. I think it's called Jaws the Revenge is that right? it's absurd it's so awesome Tom have you played it? yes what are your thoughts? it's good can you elaborate just a tiny smidge more do you want me to talk about the whole thing? that would be great you just asked a very general question so I gave you a very general answer it's like a Like a yes and kind of situation. Like yes and. Yeah, I said yes. Yeah. And. Oh, and it's very cool because it's like its own game. It's very Nintendo-y NES kind of feel to it with the sounds and the LCD. But basically you're Jaws and you're trying to eat people and beat up on boats and stop the bounty hunters from killing you so you can eat more. Well, let me ask this. So we've had lots of LCD conversations, and I think we all will admit it's rare that we look at the LCD while we play. How well does this game, the new mode, convey what to do or how to do it without looking at the LCD? Like, do the inserts, like, is it pretty easy to understand what you're doing just by looking at inserts as well? I mean, kind of. Kind of. Okay. I've only played it like two times. Travis, have you played it? No, not in its current iteration. I have not. Okay. I have not. Maybe at some point I will. It looks fun. I really love the 8-bit part of it. I think that something like that is sorely needed in pinball in general just because it just, it brings up, like, I mean, it's that word, it's nostalgia. Let's face facts. All of us at the age that we are at, 8-bit speaks to us. If you're into gaming at all, you definitely understand where that comes from. Now, obviously, if you are below 30, the odds of you truly understanding it are a little bit lower unless you've gone, you know, old school stuff and all that. But I distinctly remember growing up in the Atari and Nintendo, you know, world. And it just, yeah, that speaks to me. And it reminds me of the Jaws video game as well. So I think it's really cool that there's almost like its own video game within a pinball machine, but you're still playing pinball doing it. So that appeals to me big time. My son has come downstairs and handed me a Jaws cube. No, I know. I'm wiping no buns, bro. Do you need to solve that? I got wipes, Joel. I got wipes. He has a little Rubik's Cube. So if you hear a thing moving. I need help solving it. Yeah. It's just a two-by-two, but it's still fun. Did you get into cubing? I learned how to do a Rubik's Cube when I was in college, and that's the end of that. You took a class or what? No, you can just. You know Rubik's Cubes come with instructions? Yeah, he just sat on his butt in his dorm room. You're sitting around at a party doing a Rubik's Cube? No. No. Joel at a party? Come on. No way. Wow. Yes, I think the Jaws mode looks awesome. I think it looks awesome. I think it looks very fun. I will very much admit that I think CJ also thinks it's fun. I will very much admit that I am like so close to just placing an order for Jaws. No, you're not. Seeing a mode like that, I just feel like I'm like, I don't have any excuse not to at this point. I think pinball needs more of that where like there's additional stuff to do in the game besides the game. Does that make sense? A thousand percent. Yeah, it's kind of like a game plus or something like that. That just gives more longevity to the game overall. Plus, it's something, too. I've noticed with my own kids that since they've learned that you can play the wizard modes at the beginning of games on certain games just by holding in the both flippers that that appeals to them as well. So I think something like this is pretty cool that you just add. It doesn't have to be something that's super in depth either. You know, it could be something that's just almost like a side quest type minigame that only takes 10 minutes or so. I think stuff like that's really cool for pinball. I yes and honestly that's one of the reasons I got rid of Deadpool was being that Deadpool had no challenge modes there was I had no way I just solved it by the way yeah it took me like forever but anyways if Deadpool had a speed run to it there was nothing there was where you fight each each villain would you have kept it would that be something that would entice you to keep it it would have been I would have thought about a lot more because when I was streaming Deadpool, it's like, what are my options? My options when I hit start are to just play the game. Do I play, do I like, that's it. I just, there's something about if when I'm streaming a game, if I have two hours, it's nice to break it up once in a while where it's like, you know what, I'm going to, I'm not the guy that gets to the final wizard mode. So to just be able to play the final wizard mode, like my parents, if I go over to my parents' house and they have my turtles, you know, I'll play a game, but then I'll be like, you know what, let me play half shield challenge real quick. And while I'm at it, let me go ahead and play final battle real quick. And it's like, I feel like I played three very different experiences all within roughly, I don't know, 10 minutes each. And I'm good with that. Like that's, that's so cool. And that's what I'm excited about with Jaws is that game looks honestly like it's, it could be its own game kind of to itself of like, how do I got 10 minutes? Do I, what am I feeling? What do I want to do? And just that where it's where when you feel like you're buying a game that actually has so much more depth to it of what do you want? How do I want to play this in this moment? I love it. I just love that thought. The only thing I can think of, though, is it's just like I don't know how Stern decides what games get the extra attention. Like like does like like Jaws. So Jaws isn't 1.0 yet. Right. there's no and I think it's been said before that for a game to be 1.0 everything in the rule card and every insert needs to be explained so if there's an insert like great white right there in the middle of the play field on Jaws they need to have that insert mean something so there's a mode clear that's forgotten but like there's nothing in the inserts or in the rule card that says anything about Jaws the Revenge but yet somehow it was decided to dedicate software and time and resources to making it. I'm really glad they did. I just don't know how... I don't know. Is it like a sales related? Are you talking about the criteria of coming up with something like that? No, it's like why did JAWS get the extra attention to be able to dedicate time and resources to adding that while, you know, is James Bond going to get an 8-bit random side quest mode? I mean, it's hard to say. I don't know the answer to that. I think what it boils down to, especially when it comes to, like, coding and rules, I think that, you know, just my shot in the dark, that the ones that are doing the different games and the different projects probably have a vision of where they want to take it, an overall view, right? So they're going that direction. And then sometimes, yeah, just like Tom was showing there, sometimes the goalposts may shift a little bit and an idea may come up that inspires something. And then I guess it depends, too, like the teams. You know, I think that, and this goes for any company out there, there's probably certain teams that are just very cohesive in what they do. And they're just in sync that they can just get out whatever they need to get out in a very efficient and quick manner. I mean, I think that that like John play into it as well. Yeah. I mean, you just it's hard to it's hard to say. I mean, you would assume that different people have different skill sets. Right. Yeah. That somebody may be whether it's their vision might be better than somebody else's or their ability to put together code in a more efficient manner may be better. Their ability to have more stamina being in front of a computer for eight to 10 hours a day and just go and just get into a flow. I mean, there's all kinds of reasons why some seem like it's more than others. I think just different people have different strengths and different weaknesses. And I think sometimes you see that play out in the teams that come together because they may play off each other. They may complement each other or they may not complement each other. You know, it's just it's hard to say without being inside there. But I wish that the various pinball machines would have features like that. I think it's pretty cool. Like we've seen it, like you said, with what Ninja Turtles with the half shell challenge. I think we've seen it with different wizard modes being up front, like search or the new bar mode on Jurassic Park. And I think what Godzilla has King of Monsters with it. And I can't remember is Jaws have Fourth of July challenge. Is that on there or am I just coming up with this in my head? Did they end up making that? I don't I don't know if Jaws has any challenge modes yet. I know. Hold on a second. Wait. No, it does. Fourth of July is in it. 4th of July is in it because I streamed it you can fast forward to it 4th of July is in it Joel yes and I know Tom reporting from the trenches shark hunter challenge oh yeah that's the video mode yeah like right there I think stuff like that is cool and that's kind of a backdoor way to create I don't know just a good look for your game that you allow different modes to be available at the start button and you just allow for the player to go at it a different way. I like them because it's an awesome thing for a casual player. And what I mean is like, if my dad steps up to Godzilla, I can just go straight into King of the Monster, the topper challenge, because it's endless ball save. It's just like guaranteed. He's got five minutes to play. Let's see what you do. And that's what I'm seeing in this new Jaws mode. It's it's it's really the ball save is pretty constant. So So I think it's super awesome. It's so great, and I'm glad they – like, I really love Jaws. I really think I'm going to get one. I genuinely miss the game, and the fact that they're continuing to flesh it out and make it even better and better is awesome. I just was throwing out the question of, you know, is it because Elwynn and team had such a big scope at the beginning and they're dead set on accomplishing everything in that? Or like, you know, if Jack Danger and Ray Day had said with Foo Fighters, like, I want you to have the ability to play as the Overlord, you know, if they would have said that comment publicly, would they then, the Stern team, be forced to set aside time to code in? You know, I don't know. I don't know these answers. But regardless, I think we're all for the more Stern wants to put into a game, the better. Because that's one thing Stern does extremely well. and that's the code. The way that they can code a game and really give you the most out of a machine is really awesome. Yeah, and I can't really think of any other manufacturer that's really doing that. True. I don't know if JJP does that or not. I don't think so. No. I'm not sure Spooky does. I don't have one close by me. Joel, you would know. You've played one. Scooby? Did it have anything like that? I've never had Scooby. You didn't have Scooby? No. I have TNA. Did you have Halloween? Somebody correct us if we're wrong. Yeah. Let us know in the comments. Is there another manufacturer that adds modes afterwards? But it's awesome. Other two things I want to mention real quick, it should lead to our next discussion, which is the last two games I streamed were Stranger Things and Iron Maiden. Short and sweet, Iron Maiden. I never really cared for this game and reason being I really never knew what I was doing I've also just keep coming I've just I don't love the band it's never been a band I cared for and so when I'd play it on location it was just like the game shoots well but I just don't really know what I'm doing well I've had the opportunity to stream it so I was able to invest time into learning the game and honestly the first hour of playing Iron Maiden made me miss Jaws And the reason I'm saying that is it just, it feels so much like a Keith Elwin game. The shot layout is so creative. And the way that he can have vertical shots, but also horizontal shots and four flippers in and out and this and that. It just, the layout in Iron Maiden is exceptionally good. I really love shooting that game. I also realized something Elwin does very well. somehow he makes the the orbit shots and the spinner shots the easy shots but the ramp shots are the hard shots like like in godzilla the left ramp is probably the hardest shot like so many other games so many other designers make the ramp shots the easy shot so you hit the ramp and the ball is gently handed back to you on a flipper and then you can hit another ramp and it gets It's gently, like perfectly on a wire form presented to you again on the flipper. I don't feel like Owen does that. I don't feel like Owen, like. You've never played bonds, do you? Well, yeah, those ramps, those ramps and bonds. Yeah, it's just, I feel like it, because the ball stays on the play field for so many of his shots and the way they loop and spin and go around, it's just, I don't know, it's something that stands out to me that like it makes, I don't know, I just, I have a lot of fun shooting his games and, and, um, I just don't feel like you're rewarded as much on an Owen game of an easy shot up a ramp that gets delivered back to you on a, on a flipper. Yeah. I don't, am I wrong on that? Is that, no, I don't, I don't, there's not a Owen game I don't like. I mean, it's, they're just all really good. Yeah. It's really, It's a lot of fun. And the code, I can tell Iron Maiden was an amazing game one, and he's just only built off of it. The code is actually relatively simple to understand once you get into it, and you can go down a bunch of different paths. Cyborg multiball, task-based multiballs where you're chipping away at it throughout the game. I love it. I love it. It reminds me, obviously, of Jaws and the bounty hunt. Love it. Love it, love it, love it. Now, I compare that to Stranger Things. Honestly, Stranger Things Premium has always been a game that I've thought about owning. Reason being because of the UV kit, because of the projector, because it's such a unique experience. When I had it here in my house, my nieces and nephew, they loved the game. Loved it. They loved the game. If you're looking to add a game to your collection that anybody can play and just is such a unique and cool experience, Stranger Things would be an awesome addition for that. with all that said I was playing the heck out of the game and and I just I realized I don't need it I don't need to own the game and reason being I just nothing drew me in the presentation incredible but the actual code the actual modes the actual playing of the game it just it's good but it wasn't amazing like it didn't and and it kind of brings me to my question of like when I was playing the game I found myself I just wanted to get through it so it was just like start a mode to get through the mode so I could get through the next did you feel like you were chopping wood? well yeah it's just I realized I was so focused on progression that I wasn't enjoying the journey and also the journey itself was just some of the modes were fun and creative other modes like quarter hunt quarter hunt is just like I just never cared for it it's a long mode or there's another one, something camp, not camp, but it's like wormwood, whitewood, wormwood, whatever it is. It's like it's so many ramp shots. It's just so many ramp shots. And it's just like I'm okay if I drain because the mode's over. At least I can check the box, and that's one step closer to total isolation. And then I would get to total isolation. I'm like, this one's fine, but it's not incredible. So my question is. So what you're saying is too many modes like too much sex. Oh, no, not at all. That's what it sounds like to me, Tom. Not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, like, I realize how important modes are. And you can't – you have to enjoy the journey. So if the modes are boring and you feel like you're just trogging through them to get to the next step, to progress to the fun thing in the game, it just – it doesn't give me that one more game type of feel. So my question, my actual question with all that lead up is, are what are some of your favorite modes? Like what are when you play pinball? What's a what's a mode that like when you started, even though it's a small step in the big, you know, the whole journey of that pinball machine, at least when you're in that that that mode, you're having fun. Like it's I'm excited to be playing this mode right now. So that's kind of just throwing it out there. I mean, I have a few thoughts, but I'm just dropping this on you. I don't know. Travis, anything? Like, are there any modes? Not necessarily a mini wizard mode, but just, like, game modes that you enjoy playing. So we were talking about this a little bit earlier. When you're talking about modes, are you talking specifically, like, the classic mode? Or are you talking about, like, any type of side feature or a multiball that could be put in or something like that? Well, let me say, I mean, there's a lot of games, like a lot of Dwight games. It's like ramp, ramp, shot, you're in a mode. And once you do so many modes, then you get to your mini wizard mode. So like every time you hit start, you're going to play one or two of those modes. So are there any modes like Iron Maiden has five modes that you play before you get to two minutes? Like, are there any modes that stand out to you? Because those are the things you're probably going to play the most. So, yeah, for me personally, there's several modes that I enjoy playing. But then there's several types of modes that I enjoy playing because of what the framework is for them. So, for instance, something like Icarus on Iron Maiden, right? It's very simple. It's just the ramps. That's all it is. But if you hit so many ramps, I think it's what? Once you get past 20 million points, you have your exit up that center ramp or underworld shot or whatever you want to call it. Just to hit the target. So something like that. It's so simple. yet for me personally, if I'm playing it on location, okay, whatever, if I'm playing it here at home, it's a lot of fun to try to get to like a two or three X play field multiplier and see how many ramps I can combo out and see if I can break 500 million or a billion just something just nutty Like I I enjoy stuff like that or something like um, that was my least favorite mode, my least favorite mode on Iron Maiden. Because, well, I could not hit the ramps. The ramps are hard. Yeah. And it's also, it is basic because it's just a ramps mode, right? But it depends what you want to do with it and what your goals are. with it, right? So something like Fear of the Dark, I really enjoy because you've got to hit this shot to light your spinners. Or you can hit another purple shot again to make it 2x, and then you hit this spinner. Or you can even hit both spinners and make it 4x and just see the points just go brr. Stuff like that, I thoroughly enjoy. And then you get a soul shard. Yeah, exactly. I enjoyed that mode a lot. Yeah, I like stuff like that. Any type of side quest feature that shows up, that's why I really like Godzilla. We've talked about that in the past before. Something like Jet Fighters or, you know, like the Rampage. I know a lot of people don't like that necessarily if it interrupts something, but I do like the idea of just priority modes all of a sudden coming out of nowhere or something that you can build up and go to. Yeah, yeah, stuff like that. Titanosaurus is a lot of fun when you can get different stacks. And sometimes, yeah, like that's a great example actually, Tom. Titanosaurus on its own, I'm just like, eh. you know, get some targets, whatever. But Titanosaurus with a multiball with trying to maybe seeing a two X Rodan lit. And you're trying to get that at the same time, like that creates the excitement because then you create these layers onto it. And it's just, yeah, it's a lot of fun. That to me, that's fun. That's what makes it like, that gets me excited. So, okay. So you guys, you guys are good enough that you can stack. I'm not, I'm not stacking anything. I just, you're good enough. So you're talking about just a specific mode, like single ball or something like that? Well, I just think there's a lot of modes out there. You've got to follow the path, Joel. Yes, but there's a lot of modes. It's like you could explain the mode. Like, oh, you're going to see a bunch of lit shots. Just hit the lit shots. I get it. But I think some modes tell a story more than others. Like, I mean, Labyrinth. Labyrinth has the bog mode where if you hit a green shot, that's it. like you got to hit everything but that and and there's some there's like a story associated with that where it's like all of a sudden i i'm not it's not only do i have the shots i hit i better not hit the other things and it's i just in and it's because you can turn on a setting that if you hit a green shot every switch hit for the rest of the game is going to be a fart sound like it's so dumb and but at the same time i loved it um even like ebora ebora in in godzilla it's just spinners but there's something about i i can ignore everything else in the game all i got to do is I got to rip each spinner. It just all of a sudden it makes me focus on something particular in the game and it feels unique compared to the rest of the game. So it's a mode that I like to play. Then how do you feel like kind of getting away from modes, but this is more or less just like a feature. How do you feel about solid state games in which you hit the first inline drop target and it lights a spinner? Something like that. Does that get you excited to play it? It's something I think what I'm realizing is anything that makes me changed my mentality of what I need to be focusing on at any particular moment. So like that spinner is valuable, but if you hit the inline target first, now all of a sudden inline drop first, now all of a sudden that, that's all that matters is that spinner. And I just, and I gotta, and I want to hit a real clean shot on it. Cause I want to, I want to rip it. And that's, you had said fear of the dark earlier. Yeah. You hit a purple shot and then it's like, okay, this is my one chance at hitting that spinner, but I want it to be clean because I want it. I want to rip that spinner. there's just modes like that that stand out and unfortunately I'm not trying to be rude with Stranger Things or Lonnie but it's like there wasn't a mode in that game that I was like oh yeah I'm excited like I got this one if I was excited it was because it was an easy mode that I could just get through quicker to get on to the next thing yeah well I think some of it too is if you're coding a game I think you're going to be it's difficult to code around certain layouts as well so if you look at something like Stranger things, it's, you know, a fan layout that has a bash toy up the middle. So a lot of your code is going to go into with that under consideration. Then you take, for instance, something like Foo Fighters, right? It allowed for them to look at, okay, what do we want to do with this captive ball up here by the UFO and just make it go around the switch? Do what is it the UFO tractor beam? What do we do with this kicker that's facing away from the player that they can't hit on their own, but it might hit it and kickback up, right? So they got, I forget what that mode is that's with or the feature that gets started with the lightning bolts and all that. I can't think of it off the top of my head. But there's stuff like that that happens, and that happens in the background, right? It's not something that you can necessarily do skillfully until it gets lit and it starts going. So I don't know. I think that that's part of it, that there's only so much that you can do with a fan layout. Because look at how Attack from Mars is or Medieval Madness. yeah you know it's very much hit the same shots over and over and over again to get to something or to do something else or have some type of feature that can start or stack together uh yes and that's i don't know i just to me i think it's a great thing that separates a good game or a great game from an exceptional game is like we've talked about before like don't ignore the first 10 minutes the first 10 minutes of a game is what people are going to be playing the vast majority of the time they're going to be playing that game. So please be creative. You know, I hope modes are fun. I hope modes are creative. I know that was something we had. Like Labyrinth, I thought some of the different modes, the Oubliette mode was really, I just thought it was a fun mode. Like hit a shot, and then you're going to hit that same shot again, but it's going to do something different. You're going to experience that game in a different way. Well, that's what I liked about Hot Wheels from American Pinball, hitting the targets up front over and over and over again, the red line, and then you could boost up future modes or whatever future battles in it. So stuff like that, the risk-reward of knowing you're trying to go for something to start something. So it's a mini multiball that's at the beginning of the game if you hit it enough. So something like that's pretty cool. I like modes that are in the middle of your journey towards something. For instance, Cherry Bomb. Oh, like a mini wizard mode. Yeah, Cherry Bomb's awesome. Cherry Bomb on Guardians. It's pretty sweet. But that's something to look forward to. Like that's a like, you don't experience it, or at least a player like myself, you don't experience it every time you play the game. But once you get there, it's exciting. And that's, yeah, Jaws, Rescue Multiball, Search Multiball. Like those are something to look forward to, to enjoy when you get there. Yeah, and a lot of it is too, it just goes into how can a coder differentiate the modes from each other, right? So you take Walking Dead, for instance, Lime and Code, which is really fun to play. I think an awesome nuance with that, and we've seen this from time to time with other pens as well, but I think a cool nuance with this particular game is whenever you finish a mode, right, you can use that same mode shot to boost up the values to other modes in the future. So something like that is pretty cool. You can, like, and they all feel different. Like the way CDC works in terms of building that up and shooting the other shots for a massive payoff at the left ramp. Much different than, say, just arena where you got to hit the right ramp, which is hard to hit. Or much different than tunnel to where you hit it once or you can hit it twice to really build up the value of the shots that go all around. So I think just a lot of it is how creative can somebody that's doing the software be with whatever the layout is. It's just like we talked about Pulp Fiction the other day, right? super simple layout yet there's some interesting things in there the fact that you can't stack everything so you have to kind of pick your lane where you want to go and how you want to attack it from there i i'm with you tom do you have any modes that uh here i'll set one on like rush rush has some really some fun modes some rush has a lot of fun all rush modes are good all rush every one of them there's there's nothing wrong with rush there's not a bad mode i will say i was so upset though when they stopped the uh the building or the infinite build whatever the records oh and my game updated on its own yeah unless you're andy bagwell and you took your card out dude he's the only one with the only one with that code i offered him my first born child for that game and he's like nope never selling it you like the old code that much that it's it's oh yeah because oh yeah because you could do the record build on it it allowed for a different way to play the game right so your records you could build up so much to where you could just make the most your score up right to just puke points and it's not like you would do this in a tournament you wouldn't do this you know anywhere else really other than just for funsies on location or in your own basement or your own game room. It was just a unique way to play the game that I just, I got to where I understood where all the modes were at and how to play it, the drum bonus, all that. But I wanted to do something different. So I was just challenging myself to see how long I could keep the ball in play, keep building it up. I wanted to get it as high as possible and then just have massive cash-ins and payoffs. And I was finding that to be a lot of fun. And then when the code switched, I told myself I was going to take my game offline and then I just completely forgot and one day I came in and I saw that it was changed and I was just like damn it I was so disappointed with myself yeah it's just little things like that but we all get joy out of games in different ways sure just like you talked about Joel what type of mode do you want to be able to play at the beginning of the game do you like games to where the mode is available as soon as you plunge something like Guardians or do you like to earn it and then start playing it. I don't mind earning it when I feel like it's earnable. I just like, like I do know, like my dad, I don't know if my dad's played a battle in Godzilla yet. I mean, two ramps and a scoop. The scoop's the hard part. And I think we've talked about that before. But for me or my brother, I mean, my brother's okay. I mean, he's a good player, but not an exceptional player. But he can start pretty much any mode on a modern pinball machine. I do like I like it when you can control what mode it doesn't necessarily have to be a you shoot the scoop and pick your mode but if you give me a target or a spinner or something that I can hit where I could change the mode I'm a fan of that I know like Stranger Things the way you change mode is the pop bumpers so you shoot the shot back there and hope you know you hope to it's like a lottery like what am I getting I didn't love that but But, yeah, there's a lot of modes. I mean, some modes that stand out to me a lot are the Soul Gem mode on Avengers. I know that's not a mode. That's kind of a mini wizard mode. The limited number of flips is such a unique way to play the game. I loved that. Rick and Morty had a mode where it was the guy's arm. Rick's arm is – no, Morty's arm is really big. So I think it's like the left flipper, you only get so many flips. That's such a unique mode. so any mode that makes me that really brings in that theme immersion kind of tells a story or just or the game all of a sudden you're playing the game in a very different way I'm a I'm a big fan of that and I think some games do it better than others do you ever do the rush wizard modes to where the flippers would be inverted and everything I didn't I think those are challenge modes now but I mean I never got there when I had the game but um and I they weren't challenge modes yet, but I know I experienced that like in Simpsons when I had Simpsons Pinball Party. Mystery, what is it? Mystery something. What's the comic book mode? It was whatever it is. One of the modes would invert the flippers. Oh, gosh. Raymond's probably yelling at us right now. I think it's Mystery something. And all the 2Xs and all the shots. I don't remember. It's something with a comic book guy. That's not what we're talking about, right? No, Alien Invasion's something else oh yeah you're right yeah i don't remember i can't think of it there's some i mean there's some amazing modes out there in a bunch of different games i just to me what i'm realizing what about that one that's good i don't mean to cut you off but that just like that that is such a unique theme right there the fact that the lights fly by night multiball on a rush that the lights are dimming out the more switches you hit and jackpots and all that and you've got to make the lights come back on. To me, that is cool. I think something like that, when you can play around with what's going on out there physically on the play field with the light show and all that, and you're actively changing things based on that, I think that's really rewarding, and that's pretty cool to see. Yeah, I just think, yeah. I just, to me, you know, you can say a lot about the creativity of a layout or a really fancy mech or, you know, movie clips on an LCD screen, anything like, like to me, the things that stand that have the more and more of the things that are standing out in the game to me of importance are the layout, because that doesn't change you. I want to, I want to play a game where, where the shot feels fun every time you hit it. Um, I, and then sound because the sound is always on, you got to hear like, I want good sound, but then modes, like, I just want those simple things, the simple, the step one of 10 that you're going to play over and over and over again. I hope they're fun because that's, that's at least at my play level, that's what you experience way more than the mini wizard modes or definitely the final wizard modes. So no pressure to all the designers out there, but just make your games fun. That's all I'm asking. Just make them. I'm sure they're already trying. I don't doubt that. Tom, are there any modes that stand out to you or I don't know, like early game accessible things? Name a game. Okay. Like Guardians. Is there a mode in Guardians that you love? I like Quill's Quest because you get the multiball Foo Fighters, how about that? Foo Fighters, what's a mode in Foo Fighters? New Orleans That's a great city Seattle, it just kind of like goes across and comes back Let's go old school What about Creature? Creature from the Black Lagoon Move your car yeah it's pretty sweet actually you know what that is joel have you played that one before i have played i know you know creature but do you know what move your car is i don't you want to tell them tom uh it's when you shoot the ball up the middle repeatedly and then the guy pops out and says move your car and then you have to uh hit the middle shot again uh four times it's like a hurry up value so okay and i don't know if you're actually moving your car or if it's just you just pissing them off even more because you're just like you're like eventually he like tries to blow up your car with a rocket launcher normal stuff at a drive-in yeah i think you guys get into a fist fight too eventually too i will say um venom venom doesn't have modes but they do have battles and some of the battles i actually really had a lot of fun on maybe it was just because the The way the sound changed or the theme. Like some of those, I don't, the dragon was, what's the dragon's name? Grendel. Grendel, that guy, man. Because he'd invert your flippers. He'd mess with you. There you go. That was a pretty frustrating but fun experience. But that's deeper in the game. Did you feel like you were actually in a battle? I did. Oh, I absolutely felt like I was fighting the game. I mean, Black Knight, there was a few of the creatures that I enjoyed battling more than others but I get it, there's probably something that I like, like, well you just, Flight of Icarus was a perfect example, that was my least favorite mode, but that was the mode that you said was your favorite, so Have you tried to do a 2x with it? I was just trying to complete it I was just trying to complete it that's all I was trying to do, you know not stack anything, build up I don't build up values. It's not a stacker. We'll get there. We're going to get you there. Okay, other things, other things. We're going to shift into some tournament talk here. Tournament settings. What podcast is this? I know, right? I read or see a lot of these comments in some of the chats that we're in, and it seems like it's a very common conversation amongst you tournament players, which is, it sounds more and more like the fun of the tournament greatly depends upon how the games are set up or the overall difficulty of the games. And it seems like it must be a constant struggle of, we need to set up the games difficult enough that when really high skilled players play them, they don't play them for an hour because then it makes the whole tournament 18 hours. but at the same time if the game is so difficult that nobody's having fun playing the game then nobody wants to play in that tournament that's true so we're going to start with tom tom what are your thoughts i don't know like what's the happy medium like how do you where do you start what do you do i don't know okay so i i think you need to i i think it just depends on who's playing in your tournament so um let's say it's a stern pro circuit level tournament so you're you're probably going to have better players there so you probably want to set up the games where the the the if you move the game and when i say move the game i mean like put force on the game that it actually moves, you're going to probably either get a double danger or tilt. Where I wouldn't go to like an extreme is like, but it depends on the game too. You know, you physically touch the game with your hand and the game tilts out. You know, like that's where you're getting – where things are getting a little too rough for the player, I guess I want to say. But, yeah, I think there's ebbs and flows where you can make a game tougher yet enjoyable still. I don't know. To me, I think removing rubbers off of inlanes and out lane posts are usually pretty standard in most of those events. A little tighter tilt where you can actually try to save a ball and maybe get a, like you get one good move on a game is acceptable. but um yeah it really just depends on the game because if we're talking like let's say we're talking iron maiden um you don't have to do a lot of stuff to iron maiden to make it tough it's i mean not i'm sorry iron man uh iron man's already tough as it is for a lot of people So you know maybe having a tighter tilt and uh you you don have to fudge with the settings and stuff um whereas rush maybe you have to fudge with the settings a little bit maybe you have to make the the multiball harder to get uh the main one or you know that sort of thing sure But I think some tournaments can take things to extremes. I don't necessarily think you have to remove posts on a lot of games that don't need it, like, say, Stars. You know, Stars is already a brutal game, and I don't know if you've ever played Stars, Joel. I have, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a game that definitely you're going to lose the ball quickly if you make any type of mistake. And even sometimes just hitting the spinner, you're going to lose the ball because it's going to come down at a funky way. but um yeah i i think it just depends on on your players the games and and whatnot so you know um i think it's i that's a great answer i know um nick lane of buffalo made a comment recently that he he feels um he feels like his favorite tournaments are kind of more these local local tournaments and it's just because like they don't brutalize the games and it's a smaller group and it's just like that's where he feels he could have the most fun um i know travis you guys just with the pinball company just recently ran a tournament and i know you were kind of experimenting around with this on that that game settings yeah game settings like i i'll just say i am firmly in the camp that I do not agree with about 98% of the decisions in terms of making the software settings just super difficult. Like I will never understand making software difficult and physical difficult at the same time. I think combining those two things together leads to a lot less fun. I think it just makes games super wood choppy. I think it just makes things super grindy. And for me personally, that's just not fun. It's not fun to watch. It's not fun to play. Now, do I think that certain games need to be set up a certain way? Yeah, of course, according to what your player demographic is. You don't need to set up crazy-ass Pinberg settings for your local match play or something like that. And I get why somewhere like Pinberg or a certain pro circuit event or IFBA, I understand why the settings are the way that they are. Right. But I do think, too, I'm very much in the camp. I would much rather see a game just with a difficult physical setup such as open outlanes or no rubbers or tight tilt or maybe the pitches up or maybe even the pitches down to make it play super floaty and super weird. I don't mind that. And I'd rather see that in play and then the software left to default so we can actually see the players play. We can actually push action and we can see them progress into the game. I don't like to me. What is the difference if you make the software super hard and the gameplay super hard? Right. and it's going to last the same amount of time or maybe even two minutes less compared to getting somebody to a multiball and letting them play a little bit longer i mean if that player to me if that player says yeah i had fun doing that and it adds on an extra 10 minutes per round i'm okay with that that's perfect i would rather the players have fun i'd rather people enjoy it i I know for a lot of people, like who wants to travel across the country to go play in a tournament just to just get lit up, you know, in that way. And I think the other thing, too, and this is just from watching enough tournaments, enough tournament pinball over the years and everything. I truly do believe that what happens is, is if you make your games play very difficult software wise and very difficult hardware or hardware at the same time. Right. Physical and software. You do that, what ends up happening, the players that are just insanely world-class skilled, they gain an even bigger advantage. Bigger advantage, yep. Much bigger advantage. I think it makes the tournaments much less competitive. Because if you have an average player or above average player, then obviously skill is going to win out and skill should win out. But you end up making it just insane. Imagine if you took all the grandmasters in chess, right? Because you just get to a certain level, then you're a grandmaster, right? And they all said, all right, guys, we're taking your queen away. Do you think Magnus is like, oh, shit, I'm not going to win now? You know what I mean? You're just making it easier on the people that are just world-class, top-level, 1% of the 1% exceptional. It's not a coincidence that you see the same young players just destroying the fields over and over and over again at these types of tournaments. It's not a coincidence. That's a big reason. And as long as tournaments are set up like that, that's what's going to end up happening. Right. That's going to be the norm. The exception will be if somebody happens to sneak in, get a win. It's not impossible, but that's just the reality of it. So I think for a lot of people out there is you have to decide which direction you want to go with it and how competitive you want to you want to make it. Right. I mean, it'd be like in baseball, if the hitters are just crushing, hitting the whole time. And we're like, OK, well, we're going to move the mound up by two feet now because of that. Yeah, there's probably five pitchers that we're still dealing like crazy, still throwing 100 to 105 unhittable. But now they're going to be two feet closer because, you know, you know what I mean? It just it makes it lopsided. And I think that's what we're seeing actively. So I just would much rather see something competitive. I would much rather see that if a player happens to have a long game, so be it. At least it's entertaining because they're getting deep into the modes. They're doing stuff. They're doing something skillfully. It's a lot, it's a lot more fun seeing them do that than see them aim after the same shot 10 times in a row, just to start one multiball that begins with two second ball save like that. To me, that's not fun to watch, but I get it. Like I would rather see them hit that three times and then have the two second ball save, but at least they got there and then they could see what they do with it. So stuff like that, I much prefer. Like no ball saves, I'm all for. I agree with the no ball save thing. Now with multiball, I kind of like taking five seconds or half the time off. That way you can kind of spray a little bit, but then you have to get under control quickly. And then you do let skill take over from there once you don't have, you know, once you don't have ball saves on. So I think that's just where I'm at on it. And I know there's, I will say, the vast majority of players that I've talked to that play competitive much prefer that. They prefer software to be left alone. The games can play hard if they play hard. They want to feel like they're at least getting through the game. And that's why I love N-Disc. Now, they make certain adjustments. Like, for instance, on Deadpool, schnicked is gone. You can't get your playful multiplier. But guess what? Everything else is pretty much close to the start button. and I get if there's slight adjustments made to maybe it's like one extra shot or two extra shots. OK, so be it. My preference would be don't do that at all. Make the game play hard, but allow me to get through it to allow me to play the modes or have a chance to play modes or something like that. That's just it's just more fun. It's more entertaining. I think it just makes for much better, much better viewing and competitive pinball. I mean, that's why I enjoy watching classic tournaments because you know everybody's going to have a chance to do the thing and you're trying to watch them do the thing it's not just a battle just holding on for dear life unless you play quicksilver at the beast then that's hanging on for dear life but outside of that i mean you guys know i'm saying that's just my preference so no i think i think that's a really good point i but i'm not the tournament player i don't have the ton of experience here but i do know just you know i was really surprised the one tournament you're at where you guys called me because you're like you have a turtles how do we get if the turn if turtles is in hard mode how do we how do we get the multiball so it's when you start making these crazy software changes and now all of a sudden these expert players you know it's they're almost having to learn the game like what what can i do what has been adjusted like i i'm with you i think physical adjustments that even the playing field a little bit or just or shorten the ball time a little bit but you you didn't talk Maybe it makes sense to make some of the adjustments easier, maybe even like it's but. And I did that. Yeah, I did that for the hard tournament. And it's I mean, so we had a side tournament in which the games are just set up physically super hard. Right. A little bit tighter till not horrible. Wide open outlanes, just no, you know, no rubber. So they did play difficult. But we also toned down some of the settings to let people try to progress through the game a little bit. And even in main, that's pretty much what we did as well. We left software alone, and the only thing that we really changed was maybe making an outlane ball save super difficult, like max difficulty not lit at the beginning. Because then something like that, that does prolong the ball because you just happen to get lucky to drain out the right outlane or the correct outlane. So something like that I think could be adjusted. What do you think about leaving everything standard but then maybe making the main multiball a little harder to get? I mean, you could. I think I've seen a lot of tournaments do that. Yeah, I'm just firmly in the camp, leave the multiball where it is, and just make the ball save on the multiball a lot less. So, you know, if somebody wants to go for it, you go for it knowing you have maybe a 5, 8, 10-second ball save, whatever it could be. Because some of these pens you look at, they have 25-second ball save, which is a long ball save because these are pinball seconds too. so yeah star star trek's probably like the worst one i've ever seen right right so under those circumstances i definitely understand bringing it down but i think i like the idea of making them like 8 to 12 seconds it gives you enough time to at least get the balls out of the shooter lane right you get a few shots off and then after that i do not like it when the ball saves done and the balls aren't even out of the shooter lane yet yeah and that's no fun you know that's just I don't know. And so I'm very much picking my tournaments based off that. But I understand why things are the way they are. I mean, we both played IFBA, Tom, and the settings at IFBA were totally reasonable. They weren't unreasonable at all. The pens played great. They played fun. The same with NDSC. It's been I mean, Nationals was the same way. You can set up games to where they play reasonable. and it's understandable if you have to make certain changes. But I just think for the vast majority of tournaments, even if you're attracting high-level players, you don't have to go nuts because not everybody's going to step up and be Johannes. That's just not going to happen. I think it just leads to just a lot more fun overall. Like nobody wants to play pinball and feel like Joel after they plunge. Wow. All that. And that's how you end up. I'm the other extreme. I don't want to see like playing a match play tournament rounds the last two hours on one game, you know. Yeah. I, you know, and then the tournament goes till three. That I don't enjoy either. No. And I guess I think that goes back to the idea that I talked with you about before about doing a clock on tournaments. I mean, obviously, TGP is like gone, but I've just always wondered, why can't we do it like chess? Why can't a player have their own play clock for the round or something? And you're just like, okay, you've got 60 minutes total. You know, you clock in as soon as you plunge, as soon as you drain. You better hit that clock to end your clock. Otherwise, it's going to keep running. But this is the allotment of time that you have to play with. That way, somebody that just happens to want to trap up and play forever, like you still have to be skillful. You still have to hit your shots. You still have to be efficient and accurate. Well, there could be extremes there. you know somebody traps up and you know they're looking at their watch and you know okay i'll hit the shot and then you know because they're timed and they know like the next player behind them's waiting tapping their foot you know well no i'm not saying like like it's not 60 minutes just forever i'm talking about each individual you would have that so you'd have your own clock so if you happen to take your own time out, then say like by the time you were playing game three, you might be on a solid state, but you only have 30 seconds left on your clock, but 30 seconds play three balls. Like good luck with that. You know, I just think it just adds a different nuance. And I mean, we've seen that with baseball, with their play clock, right? The pitch clock and all that, it's sped stuff up and it's kept stuff going. And, you know, and obviously this is probably a pie in the sky thought, But it's just a way that I think that people could experiment at a local level if they're worried about their games or tournaments or whatever running for way too long. Maybe that's a way around it just to try something different to keep people engaged and not feel like you're just there watching one person play for one hour straight in your group. Honestly, I liked when I and I'm not going this year. I wish I was. But pinball at the lab last year, you know, they had a set target score, but then they also had that 10 o'clock cutoff time. I think it was 10 o'clock. So basically, you know, no rounds could start after 10 o'clock. And then if there are people in the top 24 that didn't get to that target score, well, then, you know, they just went with the top 24. So that the tournament wasn't going to 1 a.m. or 2 a.m. or whatever, you know. Well, that's a good nuance. I would rather just have fun and have a good time than worry about I have to play max TGP. That's just where I'm at on things like, yeah, of course, certified is awesome. But if you can do max TGP within a certain allotment of time and it makes sense, cool. Like if your format allows for it, cool. But if you're trying to do it over like a one-day period to do 20-plus rounds and then 60-person finals the next day, that's a little tough. Yeah, speaking of rounds and completing in time, I agree. I agree with what you're saying. I just think I'm on the outside looking in. I know. I'm on the outside looking in, watching it. What are you eating for dinner, Joel? I don't actually know. Let's talk about Joel dinner. I think that's what we need to talk about. I don't know what I'm supposed to eat for dinner, but I'm supposed to eat it in six minutes. Did your wife not tell you what you're having tonight? Is it just a surprise? No, we do. It's called Hungry Root or something. So it's like a box, and there's multiple meals. So she just picked one of them to cook. So I don't know which one she cooked. It's great. Did you say Hungry Root? I think it's called Hungry Root. Could be peas, could be meat. Anyways, unfortunately, we do need to wrap it up. So we're going to do some plugs, but just a universal plug here. Papa. Papa, I know it's coming. I think, Tom, you're streaming it? I think so. Front page, baby. Tell them, Tom. Let them know. I was going to leave that as a surprise. Thanks, Travis. Edit that out, Joel. I did apply to Twitch for the front page and they accepted by... You just sent in a signed 8x10 with you in your suit. In the hot tub. He doesn't even need a hot tub, Joel. No hot tub needed. No, that's exciting. I trimmed my mustache. It's always good to see pinball on the front page, and I'm excited for you in that moment because it's literally thousands of people show up. It's going to be awesome. I'm not excited for me. I'm more excited for Papa and all the people competing. It's going to get exposure. Well, I will just suck up for Tom right now, Joel, real quick, Because Tom's too humble. Everybody out there knows that Tom has done a lot for competitive pinball and pinball in general the past several years. He has busted his ass. And I've seen him do it in person, just unpacking everything, putting it all back up, hauling it over there, getting it set up. And he's traveled to all these different tournaments. He's helped out a ton of people. So I'm like, I'm super stoked for him to be able to have this type of exposure. because the reality is, Tom, without you, none of us knuckleheads playing competitive pinball even get to watch ourselves or see this stuff or anything like that. So I think all of us are extremely happy for you. I think it's awesome. And I would tell anybody listening to this, be there watching Papa, supporting Tom, supporting the players, supporting the Papa tournament itself, and just enjoy the chaos that will ensue once that does happen because it will be a lot of fun. It's a lot. What day is that? Joel, if you want to play in it, I'll buy your entry. What day is it? It's September what? Well, September 8th is the, I believe, is the Sunday. Joel, you're supposed to tell me these things before. I know. Unfortunately, I am September 5th through the 8th. Yeah, 5th through the 8th is the dates. Yeah, I'm out of town for a work trip. Eighth is the finals. A work trip in Chicago? No, I wish. I wish. But that's awesome. Papa, that's awesome. I'm excited for you, Tom. I'm excited for the tournament. It should be a good time. But, yeah, we need to plug it up. So, Tom, keep plugging away, man. You can see me on Fox Cities Pinball Stream on Twitch and YouTube. Perfect. Travis, plug our podcast. See me right here Purple Drain Pinball Podcast On the TPN YouTube Network And all that And then I have that other YouTube channel too With my company, the Pinball Company You can watch that too After you watch Tom's stuff And then maybe after my stuff You can watch Joel's stuff too Or maybe you can put all three up at the same time I don't know Yeah, my stuff Flip N Out Pinball The Flip N Out Pinball YouTube channel Jared and I stream every Wednesday night we'll probably have a chatting stream this week maybe we were really hoping for a game reveal today that didn't happen so I don't know next this week we may be playing some we may be chatting but check out the flipping out YouTube stream I've also been doing some pinball tutorials with the games that Zach was letting me borrow so those have been fun to make so you can check out all the stuff there but no sorry it took so long to record this one feel free to in the comments or Facebook us let us know what your favorite modes are in pinball or let us know what we're wrong about. All the tournament directors that are upset about everything that Tom and Travis just said, tell us why we're wrong. All the good things. 95% of them agree with Tom and I guarantee you. All right. Well, like always, Tom, you get the last words later.