Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. The Pinball Network is online. Launching, The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. birthday recently happy birthday dennis creasel well thank you i saw someone i made i don't know who it was who posted on the tpn about it but there were a lot of people who replied and so thank you everyone the people love the wishes you didn't get any uh bad texts or anything like that did you uh not bad i did get texts most most people post you know posted on facebook a few people sent me private messages i had one person text me nice i asked my wife we were camping this weekend and i asked her what should we send dennis something i want to send him something but i don't know what to send him and she was like well you can send anything send him uh some treats or maybe some flowers or something i'm like do you send them do you send a friend flowers maybe for a birthday it's kind of weird i can see like uh yeah for like well my funeral to your family yeah maybe yeah i would i would say your eulogy well i know you you apparently can't send a the first of the avengers stern pros that you got so come on you're never gonna let it down i'm just i'm just pointing out now i'm sitting on stock it could have been easy money but you were like yeah got inventory and now yeah well yeah i told her i said do you think what would he do if i sent him a like a stripper just as like just like a stripper just shows up at the house asked to borrow the pole I have. Yeah, that would be awkward. Are you using that? Yeah. These thighs don't make themselves, Zach. These thighs don't lie. Would you reject the gifted stripper, or would you accept the short dance? That's what we were thinking about, Nicole and I. Yes, I'm sure she was scheming this whole thing. Well, she goes along with it. She thinks I'm an idiot, but goes along with it. She shook her head and said, no, I'm pretty sure he would be very kind to the stripper and say, thank you. However, at this time, I think I give her a cotton candy. Here you go. But yeah, she was like, have fun at the circus. She's pretty witty. So she said something about the stripper taking off the heels before she entered. I don't have that rule. She can wear the heels inside. I don't have that rule. Oh, and I thought, ultimately, I can't, everybody, I probably had five or six messages saying, please sing happy birthday to Dennis Creason. I said, I can't. I can't for his birthday. I cannot sing to him. That would be too much. He hates singing. So I thought, why not hum? I did see a lot of people post online concerned about the singing. And so that they know, had you sent like an audio file, I wouldn't have played it because I knew what it would have been. And had you actually tried to call me, I would have rejected the call. That's fair enough. Can you hum, sexy? Are you trying to do your Marilyn Monroe there? You got it, though. So it worked. Yeah. So I guess, yes, that's the answer to that. Don't we have a guest on today? No, that's the thing. We were supposed to have a guest, Dennis, a special guest from JJP. King Cromwell was supposed to grace us with his presence today at his request. I was excited about that. However, things have changed, I guess, since then. I don't know. I guess he's busy. I don't know what's going on. But Ken said he was not able to join us this week. It felt like a prom all over again. Yeah. All these people wanting to go with yours truly to the prom. And then they all stand me up the day of with my corsage. I offer my sympathy to you. Dennis? What is it, Dr. Phil? Did you guys get stood up by Mr. Cromwell? Some bitch. He has a successful launch. And he's too big for his britches. Was it really successful? It was stupendous. Outstanding is what the Daily Report's calling it. Yeah, that's fair enough. But for you, screw you, Ken Cromwell! Couldn't stand in a sub like that. These boys are worth more. What about t-shirts? I think there were emails saying, here's a better job, Zach, don't hate me. There were some good ones. We're going to pick one this week. We're going to show some this week on social media, so follow the Pinball Network on Facebook, and we'll show you some pictures of some of them, and then we'll randomly select a winner. Exciting. I'm going to give the audience, you guys, you're going to get pissed off. I'm going to give you about a C- grade on this whole giveaway. Have you on Straight Down the Middle scored a pinball machine at a C-? Yes. I think you've scored one. Greg has not. You have. I can't remember which one it was. Was it Baywatch? It may have been Baywatch or Rob Zombie. No, I think Rob Zombie got a C. Yeah, it might have. Yeah, it's probably Baywatch. God, you pulled your punch on Rob. Trying to land that spooky distributorship, even though it was before you owned Flip N Out Pinball. You foresaw it all through your Palantir. Well, I do see all in the future. Wait until you see Jersey Jack number eight. I'm going to give everybody a C-. It was a decent effort, but I know you guys have more in you. C- doesn't sound decent because that's below average. I'll give them the banner, whatever. I'm not mad. I'm just a little disappointed. I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed. Let's get into some news. Do we have correspondents? No, we only have one this week. Y'all need to step your game up too, damn it. C- is for everyone. I'm over here editing all night long. Whatever. Let's hit it. It's time for TPN Industry News. Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Well, the long wait is finally over for Guns N' Roses. It was finally released last week, and I've got a few key points that I wanted to touch on for this segment, so I'm going to move quick. First things first, the pin looks amazing. There are literally hundreds of LEDs on each version. The introduction of color-coordinated LED hot rails on either side of the game really add to the atmosphere and excitement of the game. In fact, some have said it's almost too bright. The artwork looks great, and many people are seeing it as a vast improvement over some of the art packages on previous titles. Now for the gameplay, it's really up in the air at this point. Some people really love the fact that it's easy to shoot and there are wide open ramps. Other people are complaining that there are too many multiballs and that that really slows down the flow of the game. Either way, people are going to become a lot more familiar with the gameplay over the next few weeks. And my main takeaway is that Slash really wanted to make this a concert in a pinball machine and they have succeeded on every level. The sheer number of songs, the playfield details like bass string return ramp and guitar headstock, the gameplay progression through the different songs, and the overall world under glass feeling is giving many people the impression that this may be the best theme integration in the history of pinball. The main downside appears to be that Jersey Jack was caught by surprise with the sheer numbers of people wanting to buy this machine. Distributors are not getting as many as they thought, and people are having their orders cancelled. It's a big problem with the rollout of this incredibly in-demand pin. The thing to remember is that this is due to the power of a machine built with this much attention to detail, paired with a killer theme, and resulting in what many are calling Game of the Year for Jersey Jack Pinball. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Well, Zach, it's always great to hear from a correspondent. Oh, it is. Thank you, Ken Rudberg. I think Craig Bobby's off in the woods again, if I had to guess. You know, that's that generous Canadian vacation time. Something. Man, do they take naps and siestas too? Shit. Beds of syrup. let's talk about jersey jack pinball it's all in the news guns and roses was revealed released we gave some quick first impressions prior to playing the game you dennis have not been able to get out and play one on location quite yet correct now we don't have any in this area at this time okay that i'm aware of we do know they're shipping so that is always a plus that's really cool we were able to secure a couple of the first run of le's i know that standards are now on the line if not on and off the line. And then we'll talk about the production because as a distributor, I'm not sure what's next or when it's coming. But I do have an Ellie in the showroom. So I've played. Now, I know, of course, you and Greg got time because you shot that promotional video, which is done very well, by the way. Thank you. Thank you. I'm sure you already knew that. Yeah, a lot of people have reached out, and we appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, well, I'm going to say, and you can shift back if I'm disrupting your transition, here but the just the online feedback if there's obviously there's always opinions on every single game there are things that people like and things that people ate there's a lot of subjectiveness to anything in pinball as we would expect but i have not seen criticism at all about this launch and i have seen many people say that they feel this is the best launch they have ever experienced in pinball and i would agree that's pretty big very well executed better than anything else i can think of just the way it was sort of staged you know we got the little trailers and then uh you know it's just a a few minutes later the the longer videos come out you got the deep dive over with twip uh and then it kind of culminates with the buffalo live stream then we go into buffalo it was all in all i kind of tend to agree i don't know a better one i'm sure that there was things that could even be better than that i know that oh i bet there's there's room for improvement in anything but that being said this was so i mean i was talking with not you with not zach i was talking with other people we were pulling analytics from how avengers was revealed like the marvel stream and all that and the promotional trailer for avengers versus the promotional trailer that jjp had on their site the numbers that avengers has a month's worth of numbers and the jjp guns and roses figures are so many thousands ahead after 24 hours yeah this was before the Buffalo stream. I was talking with Joel with Just Another Pinball, actually, and he pulled the numbers before I did because we were both in the same track of thinking of what we wanted to analyze. And I had another discussion with another non-TPN person about it. And it's the same thing. It's just like, yes, this is... Someone pointed out to me that at the time, at least, the JJP trailer was not even, in their view, appropriately tagged on YouTube to get as many hits as it could, and it still had great numbers. It did. I can say that Greg and I, for the straight down the middle piece, we really poured everything we had into that, Dennis. And we were not bright. We were really proud of it. We felt good about it. I got to surprise Greg with the edits one day when we were filming the first impressions video we got up and he was blown away by it. And it just it feels really good to get that feedback from people. And people have been so gracious about it, saying things like, yeah, this is exactly what we want. We need that nice little teaser, not showing us too much but getting us to want more. Then we've got more of a behind-the-scenes capture with its own kind of sizzle reel and a way to see it differently. And then we go right into a podcast or a deeper dive, and then you get the stream later on. It breathes a little bit before you get that stream. I think timing-wise, it was damn near perfect. yeah i for me the only i guess if i were to offer my peanut gallery opinions uh the one thing i would have done differently is if possible i would have moved the buffalo stream to the same day as the other stuff just putting it at the end i could see that rather than waiting two days uh and in part it's because the games were already shipped yeah so people were already getting to experience it and given that i i think that pressure i don't think it's a big deal because i think the i think the constructed trailers are what generate the most excitement. But just for the hardcore to get used to, get familiar, understand it, I think it would have been a good capstone on the end of a day of really exciting reveal stuff. And I just think compressing it all into 24 hours would have worked even better. But I'm guessing. I don't know if that's true or not. Even, I'm going to give a big-ass gold star to Ken Cromwell. I mean, think about it. Think about Ken Cromwell was not employed there to any prior releases. He helped with the Wonka release with the podcasting panel. Right, right. He was part of the reveal strategy. Yes, he steps in now and coordinates just the cornucopia of different things. But it wasn't too much. Nothing was too much. And then think about it, Dennis. Even the pictures leading up to that reveal, little bitty sneak peeks here and there with Eric Meunier, that was nicely orchestrated. And then I can tell you listeners that that visual piece and that video piece of kind of the rules overview that we've seen prior to the Buffalo stream, that was all Ken Cromwell as well. He fully edited that whole darn thing. Yeah, no, Ken, I think Ken did an incredible job. I actually privately, well, now it's public, privately messaged Ken just a real quick because that day or the day after, of course, I know he's really busy. So I just said, hey, I just wanted to let you know I thought this was an incredible reveal. I think Ken knows me well enough to know that I don't go and give faint praise. Yeah, and we can say this unequivocally. I think this is a fact that the way that that rolled out sold a shitload of products. It sold a lot of products. I remember on the last episode, on our part one of our last episode, you asked me about the CE and if it was going to sell out or not. And I was like, I don't know. You know, 12.5 is a lot of money for people. Oh, holy crap. Well, I was once again 180 degrees looking in the wrong direction. That bubble's strong. Oh, my. Is this the first CE of theirs that sold out? I would guess so. Yeah, because I know that. And it did it in a day, right? I know that there was Wonka CEs. There's no way in hell that Dialed In CEs sold out. They probably just stopped the production on those. Sold out. Oh, I guess Pirate CEs sold out. Oh, wait, no, I don't know. Well, they built them all because the sales were so low. Yeah, they stopped the run on it, my belief. That's right. That doesn't count. Stopping the run early doesn't count. A $12,500 plus shipping machine, 500 units, selling out the first day is absurd. It's unbelievable. Obviously, my mind didn't think it was possible. And at that time, Dennis, none of the – sorry, I'm getting loud. At that time, none – we had not seen gameplay of this game. That was the power. Did it sell out before the gameplay showed? I don't know when it sold. I knew it did the day of. I knew it did the day of. Day one, and we'll talk about the mess that that was, but there wasn't even enough. This thing could have sold 1,000 units in day one, period. That shows the power of proper marketing and having the employees and the groups with that media roll out all at once. That shows the power of that. but nicely done JJP team and for everybody in media that was part of that spectacle and then we saw the Buffalo stream before we go into what the game is like I do want to showcase something that is really important to me a good old thank you is very important to me in life Greg Bona will even tell you it's easier to give money to somebody than to genuinely say thank you and nothing shows character, listener, like Eric Meunier, the designer of Guns N' Roses pinball, to call me personally on the day of release before this thing was released to tell me how grateful he was for the video, how well done it was, him watching it over and over. He was just very emphatic with his thank you and the man did that on the most important occupational day that he's going to have in years, maybe of a lifetime. and he chose to do that to Greg and I. And if that's not character, I don't know what is. That was the highlight for me of this whole thing was having him take the time on probably the busiest, most important day to say thank you, to reach out. So Eric, thank you for just being a damn good person and a genius when it comes to designing pinball machines. So now we can talk about Buffalo Pinball had the opportunity. Kevin got a game early in the week or last week, week before, I'm not sure when. He did an unboxing stream of it. Then he did the official JJP reveal stream, and everybody got to see this game. Did you by chance get any time to watch that? Well, yes, Zach. I saw about the first 60 minutes of the Buffalo stream live. Wow, okay. So you saw quite a bit of it. Yes. I haven't been doing a very good job watching live stream reveals, but I was killing time before the debate. Very nice. Oh yeah. That's a whole nother story. Whole nother podcast there. Yes. So what? That was a, that was a Transformers reference. Oh my God. I got a little shy above. Tell me what you thought about the gameplay. Gameplay itself. I don't think this is my cup of tea. Ooh, strong take. Yes. Why is that? Well, I remember when we had done our first thoughts based off of the trailer in our part two episode of episode number 32. And you had mentioned with your hands-on experience when shooting video that you felt this game was very approachable. Yes. And you defined that approachability by that this game played easier than Pirates, J.J.P. Pirates, and easier than Wonka. And so that already made me nervous because I think Wonk is an easy game. Hey, Wonk! Oh. I think you can ride ramps all day. It's got some risky shots if you choose to take them. That's a tough shooter, but okay. But it's not, I mean, it ain't no Iron Man. No, that's fair. Also, I wouldn't say it's as forgiving as maybe Stern Star Trek either. Okay. But so anyway, watching it, like the shot geometry looked okay, but I didn't think it looked great. Wrong. And I also thought, especially coupled with the sheer volume of multiballs, that this is a game aimed at beginners. Wrong. That was my take. But anyway, that was my take. Again, I wasn't staring at the screen the entire 60 minutes. I did not think, though, of a single game that Kevin Manning with Buffalo Pinball played where he did not have a multiball. True. I'm counting add-a-balls. So if he had it, I was like, okay, so this is baby's first multiball? Is this a Daddy East game? Wrong. Where you get a guaranteed try ball on ball three if you didn't earn a multiball? Because that's what it felt like. It pushes you to play a song. Yes. You get to play a song. and that song is where a lot of the and i think some people are going to like that but to me it seemed even more multiball heavy than hobbit and hobbit was too multiball heavy for my taste so that bothered me coupled with that the layout isn't i don't think it's that you know there's a lot of stuff there's a lot of stop i mean we were watching the le version i believe yes and and so you've got like the guitar neck with the ball lock which is really cool ball lock and just but But once you're in multiball, there's not a good way that I could tell from watching Kevin to keep the balls flowing along the ramps and stuff so it's all really cramped. You're playing that lower half with all those multiballs. A lot of times, yeah, playing multiballs. And so to me, it just looks like a flail fest when you're in the multiball. But he was in the multiball all the time, all the time. And for me, those are not things I look for in a game. That's a fair assessment. To be kind, you're going to be eating crow a little bit on the layout once you get a chance to play it. Nom, nom, nom. Well, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. But, no, I don't. I did not. Layout-wise, it looked okay. I don't want to say I hated the layout. I think I would have fun batting the ball around on it. But I don't think that. I think the Pirates layout is more exciting than this layout. Oh. Wrong. No. Just no. Okay. No. This feels more open than even the wide body that is Pirates. Well, there's a lot of open space down below. And again, we were watching the LE, but when I look at the standard edition, when you don't have the upper playfields anymore, and you see just how little of the whole upper left fourth is used on this game for gameplay, and that's just in this mode, a lot of that is in the LE version, and that's mostly to compensate or accommodate, I should say, That bass guitar neck and a fairly – what reminds me of it, I think I even noted it when we watched the trailer last week, the Aerosmith-esque upper play field with the one little flipper that has like two shots to do. I again, I think that my distilled down opinion is it feels to me like the huge focus on this was to integrate the theme and create the stage show rock and look. And I think that got nailed. But I think you'll pay a price on gameplay for it. I was going to say I strongly disagree. You can of course But in my defense if I may continue to ramble a little bit So I was of course chatting with other people while watching the Buffalo Stream because everyone was watching the Buffalo Stream It was the place to be after all, and I want to be a cool kid. So when I'm there, I was talking to several people, and then one of the competitive players, better than me competitive players, which isn't saying much, I know. but this was a very high-level competitive player, said some of the similar things. I'm really concerned about the length of the multiballs. I'm really concerned about how generous this seems to be for accommodating shots. It doesn't seem overly dangerous. He told me that he was talking with another high-level player, I don't know which one, who already said, based off the video, they were banning this game from tournaments. Wow. Now, whether or not that actually happens or not remains to be seen, of course. but that and then one of them noted that when I guess it was Joe Katz at some point this was after I wasn't watching anymore it was in the second hour I believe said that he thought this was a great tournament game and this person laughed it's like no the only time he's going to tell on the whole tournament scene thing it's making me wonder can you have a game with this level I mean because this theme I still stand by what I said last week This game has the best theme integration of any pinball machine I can think of ever, ever. And I wonder, can you have that and have a game that's going to appeal to the truly competitive crowd? Is it impossible to have both? It's not impossible. Well, because like this, that bitching guitar neck lock thing, that takes up a lot of space that you can't shoot now. That just holds balls. I had someone refer to the whole upper section and that as, hey, look, they brought back Flight 2000's ball lock. Oh, that's not fair. It wasn't fair, but it was funny. That's why I'm telling it. That's why I'm telling it. But, I mean, we can't all be straight down the middle, Zach, and just shill the hell out of this. You can play that card, but I'm telling you right now, the layout is phenomenal. It really, really is good. And a lot of you don't know me as a competitive player by nature. That's fine. But it doesn't mean I don't know what is a good shooting game, good geometry, good combo system. It doesn't mean that at all. If anything, I would argue that I know more so than even a lot of competitive tournament players. There's no correlation here to me between tournament and competitive pinball expertise and geometry and layout. I'm sorry. There's not. Some of the greatest games ever made were ones that may not be suited well for a tournament. Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, all-keeper games. I think you're right and I think it's fine I'm just saying that Because I typically seem to just Like what game like I would like to have A Lord of the Rings so I could see having a game Like this and really enjoying it but Knowing that it's not going to be It's not going to meet every box It's not going to check all the boxes How in the hell does this thing then Dennis Give me that one more game feeling More so than anything in my collection Right now Because it's new No No, because the past five games I've purchased haven't been necessarily like that. Because it's JJP. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you because Eric Meunier's design philosophy is the one that most appeals to what you enjoy in gameplay. I was listening to Travis Murie, a friend of ours, on his – I did see at least one of his videos after this. He did another – I think it's called A Pinball Podcast on YouTube. Okay, so yeah, he was doing a pinball podcast on YouTube, and he was giving his reactions after gameplay. And I love Travis, but it had me pulling my hair out. I'm like, oh, my. Now, Travis, a high-level competitive player. Absolutely. He's a state champ from Oklahoma. He has the credentials, right? The bona fides, yes. But damn, was he wrong. Wrong. I think he had his, Travis, I love you, but you had your Avengers glasses on there, buddy. He just purchased an LE. He had the Avengers glasses on, just as one might say I have my shill lens on and my shill shades. Oh, trademark, shill shades. So you're thinking that Travis's opinion is influenced by the fact that he dropped a lot of money on an Avengers? About 5%. Well, that's not very much influence. 10%? Come on, Zach, 5%. If I get a coupon for 5%, I throw it away. There's multiple things. His preference and desire for Keith Elwin games. Maybe another one. That's common for a lot of tournament people. The feel of a Stern game doesn't have a lot of JJP games. The familiarity with Stern games as a competitive player. I mean, there's a couple things going on. But when he said something to the effect of, this game has no flow combo to it. He said no combos in this game. I thought I was watching the presidential debate. I was like, this is just not true. None of this is even true. What am I even watching, Travis? Lies. Oh, lies! Because the loops and the repetitive loop and the smoothness nature of this game is screaming combos and flow. Screaming. Just because it has an upper play field doesn't mean it doesn't have flow. There is some stop and go. But can a game – I know that that's the scale, right? One end is flow. One end is stop and go. Stop, go, and flow, right? Well, it's more that those are like the two modern design philosophies that most games fall in. And then, of course, there's a blend between the two that you can achieve. Though I would note there's nothing inherently bad about stop and go. No, of course not. Fur Flow games like Steve Ritchie and John Borgs and other people fall more into it. Like Pat Lawler was a big-time stop-and-go designer for most of his layouts. Jon Norris was a big-time stop-and-go designer. Like 8-Ball Deluxe. We talked about Merlin's Arcade and how it's based off 8-Ball Deluxe. 8-Ball Deluxe is a notorious stop-and-go game. Because a lot of times stop-and-go games are about precision and sniping. Yes. Sharp shooting. I would say this is a hybrid. I would agree. I mean, the shots are fairly, you know, I was going to say fairly conventionally laid out because you've got a lot of space in the open. It's not a fan, but you've got a lot of open space in the lower area so there's room to work with. And the ramps seem to be designed, and I believe you noted this last week, very accessible. Yes, which creates a lot of flow. This is not a bricky game. I think Eric placed the shots well for what he's going for here. But there's a lot of stuff that occupies space that kills the ball momentum. You said the game plays very fast. I would agree, kind of. Because it's like that depends on what you mean by fast. You're talking about the ball gets back to your flippers fairly quickly. Is that what you meant? That would be more flow. Right. And so I didn't think that's what you meant because there are shots that are feeding into these pops. You're in the pops a lot in this game. That really slows it up. And some people might like that and some people might not. Upper playfields, well, you're on the flipper up there, but you're not on the flippers that matter. There's no risk of draining when you're on the upper playfields. My point is any time that you can hit the following sequence, you cannot say there's no combos in it. You hit the right ramp to right flipper. Then you combo it to left ramp, left flipper. Then you hit it back to right ramp, diverter, third flipper, three loops in a row. Then it goes back down to the right ramp. There's no way you can say that that doesn't have combos. But I didn't say that. Well, I'm saying using the Travis Murray expression. Well, I don't know what he meant by the combo. I'd have to go back and replay it. So there's no combos in this game. That's silly. So he was wrong, is what you're saying. The orbits on this thing. the orbits on this game are smoother and better than any orbits on a jersey jack pinball machine the spinner shots on this game are better than any some people don't like orbit shots that pinball pops it's like a pathway so yeah okay i get that well because it kills the momentum that's just one spinner though your left orbit spinner comes around lightning fast to an upper flipper which everybody i think is an agreement one of the favorite parts about modern pinball An orbit to an upper flipper And then a sequential inner flipper Or inner orbit flow there There's nothing like it That feels good Ramps that do something different A spinning disc That I actually care about You don't care about the Avenger spinning disc? It does not shoot like this one Well it's in a different place No, it's the materials Oh It is the materials on this one. This one, if I spun it with my finger, it feels like it is on a fully oiled ball bearing system. So it's super spinny. Yes. And then it shows you that with the light show that matches the RPMs and velocity of that spin. Avengers is needed. It feels good. But the materials used in that do not spin, nor do they hit like GNR. GNR. Do you think that's because the Avengers one has to lift? Or have you played the pro? No, I've got the pro. Same thing. I don't know if it's the post they use. I don't know. Or it could be how it's mounted. Whatever's underneath. I don't know. I've never owned a game with a disc like that, so I don't know how they work. Yeah, I think more people are going to have to play this because It looked like I would have a good time batting the ball around, but it didn't make me want to own it. Like, whereas the theme, the theme integration makes me go yeah that would look really cool in my lineup but the gameplay did not i just but and again you know fully admitting my own biases layout aside i do not like multiball heavy games i can see that argument i just i and lord of the rings while it's got some of this in some ways in terms of the i don't think this is as easy as lord of the rings layout but i would say maybe this reminds me a bit of not laid out the same way but in terms of ball times maybe uh is it is it is it spider-man accommodating maybe yeah i could see so and some people are gonna love that and i think in a way that makes sense to me because if jjps of like 90 of them are in homes and you've got all this depth of on keifer's code to go through you need to be able to achieve it or people are going to get frustrated that is one of the things i will say when it comes to multiball and i've said it here on air as well, too much multiball can turn me off a bit. Pirates, that was the only downside to Pirates for me, was it got a little bit multiball heavy, and I didn't feel like I was doing much in the modes. Same thing with Hobbit. Hobbit can get a little bit multiball heavy. What helped the Hobbit was the code, because as you're progressing through those multi-balls, you really, really feel like the payoff is there. That is, completing one of the wizard modes, there's a big payoff there, as well as defeating Smout. Big payoff there. Right, right. So, yeah, I mean, it was just, so in terms of just, like, again, you asked me about gameplay. So with, it's like, okay, the layout looks fine to me. It didn't excite me. The look of the, you know, the toys and the mechs and the sculpts, you know, that's what catches my eye, not the actual geometry itself, which I think is fine. But with the rules, I was just, I was like, yeah, this is so, all these songs, all these add-a-balls, being able to be in a multiball and then re-lock while in the same multiball i just all of that is a turnoff for me yeah and i can i can see that it's just it's just a style thing and why don't we do this i was going to because you haven't had a chance to play it yet i was going to do something really quick for the listener to get to express something fast i know wow that's what she said are you sure is that possible i'm gonna i'm gonna try i'm gonna try to give a quick rundown of the things I love and the things I don't love as much on Guns N' Roses now that I have 50 or so plays on it. Something I'm going to call three up, three down. So I'm going to tell the listener three things that are up, three things that I think that really differentiates this machine compared to all the other pinball machines made, and three things that I'm not so hot about when it comes to the recent Jersey Jack pinball reveal and release of Guns N' Roses. And I, for long-term just pinball podcast fans in general, will refer to this as six fast thoughts. Oh, what is that? You remember Nate Shepard's game, Coast to Coast, and his five fast thoughts? Okay. You don't. Oh, my God. Oh, whoa. You are a new blit to this. Wow. I've heard Nate. A chicken McNublit right here. Get your tin pack. To be fair, I heard Nate's Michael Jordan wizard years. It's good. Still got it. but I can do better kind of thing. No, maybe. Nate, I know you're not listening, Nate, but if you were here, I'm defending you. It's okay. Shit. You know, Nate. All right, go do your three up, three down. All right. Do it. Three up, three down. Is that better? You don't even know what I'm referring to. You immediately think I'm doing war games. Yeah, I know. All right, let's give you guys three ups. One of the ups on Guns and Roses is definitely the audio video spectacle. Try to compare it to anything, even the likes of a Jersey Jack, Pinballs, Wizard of Oz, and it's merely laughable. It's not close, and I'm here to tell you I don't think we're going to get anything close to this, maybe until JJP's next release. Another up for me is the unsung hero with this game, Dennis Creasel. It's the layout. The layout indeed. I think it's the low-hanging fruit that people think that they can grasp on to try to say something negative about this game, but they should not be grabbing for this fruit because this is one of the nicest smoothest funnest shooting games ever made you thought pirates was fun this trumps it you thought wonka layout was fun this is right up there with it i think some of the identifiable shots for me a clean left ramp that either whips it right back clean to the left flipper or diverts it cleanly to a ball lock or a Vuck without even the use of that upper flipper is key. Combos and flow like no other on this game. Sure, it has stop and go, but that's okay because when you have it coded by Kiefer, all is well. And one of the most underrated shots of this game that nobody is talking about, Eric likes going through pops in the most difficult fashion ever. There is a shot through the pops, Dennis, that gets you that extra ball, and it's right up to the top lanes, but nobody pays attention to it and you got that spinning disc post that could be in the way. It is a la very much Jurassic Park and Keith Elwin. It is a feel-good shot. The layout on this game will remain the unsung hero, but it deserves just as much credit. The last up for my three up, three down is Internet Connectivity. Sweet Jesus, Mother Mary. Thank God for Internet Connectivity. I was trying to update a Stearns Elvira this week. Fuck. yeah that ended up having to use fucking etcher to do the uh sd card thing no i synced this thing up online and i was like i wonder if they even have any oh shit they do have an update let's see how simple this is it gives you a change log of what's going to be updated you press the start button and within a couple minutes boom maybe seconds it was done i didn't have to worry about stupid usbs that have to be reformatted that are either broken or something's wrong with them no it's done you guys know this is the bane of my existence and i'm so happy that that is finished it was simple unfortunately three down one of the downs is the plunge men you're not sure what you were thinking on this whole plunge this is a high energy game and doing a twilight zone-esque with a weak spring just doesn't feel good not to mention the way the ball flows out of that plunge almost puts you in danger right away and if you get a cheap drain on the first one and you go for the second one, there is no guarantee you're going to pull your ass out of that ball save either. So the plunge itself, I could pass on that. Another down, we were talking about it and people are talking about it, is the multi balls. For me, the multi balls in the songs have to stay. Those are greatness. There's a reason there's multi balls there. You have to keep that light show going because that is the spectacle. Not only that, but the code allows for album progression to be done by the song duration. You have to have that song going. Kiefer, don't listen to anybody. The multiballs in those main songs are critical. However, the fillers that are put in is what I'm calling them, the extra lights multiball or the something in another stage multiball. I don't think those are needed at all. Give me single ball play until I earn it in those songs, and you'll be doing just fine. My last down, unfortunately, this is more so not just GNR in general, But the company of Jersey Jack Pinball, it's purchasing the game. Boy, was this a mess. The CEs come out. Nobody knows where to buy them. Dealers, hell, we've been here for years, been taking CE orders. It's never been a problem before. All of a sudden, we get a hit, and now there's an issue. We'll talk about this a little bit more. But now we're facing an LE, people trying to buy an LE, but don't know when they're going to get a game. Purchasing this game has been short of difficult. Now, they're trying to figure it out. Their claim from Jersey Jack Pinball is that it has been a very overwhelming experience and they were not yet suited or prepared for this. My guess is that they all focused so much on the marketing, which slayed that some people that shouldn't have had their nose in the marketing maybe should have paid a little bit more attention to sales and how to get these games on the production line and into customers and locations everywhere in the world. But maybe that's just a learning curve. Ladies and gentlemen, that's my three up, three down, or three up, three down. Quick thoughts. How was that? Not bad. It was longer than I thought it would be. Oh, I tried. Well, you didn't try very hard. You spent way too long talking about every layout shot in the game. I like your pointing out the challenge of the pop bumpers through the shot to get the extra ball. When I've got six balls, how concerned am I exactly about just lucking my way up there? Multi-balls kill flow. I agree. well yeah but that's okay i mean that's okay again you know it's not a pure flow game i mean we admit there's there's stop and go on it so i see where the multiball like there are there are other layouts that would be worse i think for multiball but i just i think it's hard to ride the ramps in this layout with the multiball okay um but yeah you mentioned the filler multi-balls and one of the very first ones i think i saw i think the very first multiball i saw was kevin had started his game and he he made a shot and then he goes oh it's the i fired from the lower left flipper behind the upper right flipper that i was holding up multiball i was like what the hell is that you mean the away team shot from star trek that's a multiball now or an add a ball which i had a ball i'm counting out of all his multiball because it is that's the one of the things i think um joe katz and keith can probably look at because whenever you're let's say you're doing phenomenal in a song. The song, to complete the song, doesn't take a whole hell of a lot, but you need to progress through that album to get to that mini wizard mode. So you want to keep it going. What I think they could adjust a bit is whenever you complete the mode, you can hit it in the center scoop. Sorry, listeners, this is boring. Hit it in the center scoop. You have two options. You can continue on and try to build up that jackpot, try to build up the album progression, or you can cash out your jackpot. I think what they could do is take that add a ball feature out of that because if given the option of continuing to blow up a score but also be given an extra ball why am i ever going to cash out if you're giving me an extra ball i can keep blowing it up get rid of that edible it's not needed but isn't the and i i get that and that concept of a risk reward i think is a good concept but isn't the i want to think when i was listening to a final round pinball podcast and keifer was on and explaining he talked about the like the way it's currently set up something about you you know you have this like 4x up to value and it sounded like it had to do with the multi balls in play so if they take it out like it seemed like the the risk reward is you know cashing out before you drain and getting whatever you've earned but the value is more like the more stuff you've got running concurrently it could be and i'm fine with what i really love is during these songs you're trying to get that power cord and locking balls back in the neck of that guitar to build up that power chord jackpot. I like that, but if I lock a ball, give me another one. You don't have to give me multiple balls. I don't need it. I need that risk reward. If I'm going to press continue, I don't need to be awarded another ball. Just my thought. So if you lock a ball up in that neck, it gives you another ball to play with? No, it gives you another ball, but it's just that add a ball feature when you continue that song. Oh, at the center. Yeah, if you continue it, it's an add a ball feature as well. I was really surprised that it was this generous with Add-A-Ball, given how many multi-balls there are tied with all these songs. Yeah, so overall, it is a dynamite. It's going to be a classic, I think. But where do you think it lands one month from now in the Pinside Top 100? Oh, God, one month from now. Well, top ten. I think it'll be there. I think it'll be easily in top five. Well, it'll start at number one if it's not there already. I think this legit deserves to be in the top five of all time already with such little play I've had already. I haven't played it, so I can't say whether that's true. That's why I try to focus it on what you think Pinside will put it at because a month gives it time. Well, the people who spent 12.5 are going to, and I'm not going to say a 5% factor. I'm going to put it over 50% will be driven by the fact that they need to justify how much money they blew on a game. And that's why all these games tend to start really high no matter what. And then that starts to come down because then there are people who didn't buy it who are upset and they have to drag it down. And then maybe eventually you get like the honest reviews come in and it kind of shakes out. Again, it's just this slays on so many levels. Even the stuff that I've been critical about, there's still all the AV integration. I mean, when you listen to Eric talk about the game and the passion behind it, all of his focus wasn't on the geometry. He is explaining about all this theme integration, the catwalk ramps and the drumstick things. And that is going to appeal to a lot of collectors. And they're going to say, this looks cooler than Medieval Madness' integration. This looks cooler than – I mean, like what's the best theme integration from Bally Williams? I actually think it's a terrible game called Champion Pub. But it looks the theme. And this is better than that. This is the best I've ever seen. And that alone I think probably gets it in the top ten. Star Trek Next Gen is pretty good on theme integration. Yeah, I mean, but yeah, no, that's a good point. It is. I still think with Champion Pub why I give it a leg up over something like Star Trek though is that even and again while I think this is better theme integration on Guns N Roses where I will give Champion Pub extra credit is some of the things like the jump rope and the speed bag and stuff it stuff it integrated interaction with the ball yeah most of this stuff is av that the ball is not you know it non interact it doesn't interact with the ball toys true it's stuff that's synced to the software and because it's a stage show that makes sense to me but you know like the stuff that the ball feels like it's really interacting with the disc is like the highlight yeah and the ball locks like that's the interaction. Everything else is like, oh, when a pop goes, the cymbal goes, which is cool. Let's talk about what the hell happened with the sales release of this game. I've read some Pentheside threads. I do my research for this show, Zach. There seemed to be... I'm going to use the word debacle. That wasn't the word from the thread, but that's the word I'm going to use. There seemed to be a lot of angry people who thought they had a lock on a CE, collector's edition, and it sounds like they didn't. So you're a distributor, so you have like an inside track on this. What the hell happened? I guess I'm biased, though, because I have a side in it. Well, okay, but you've declared it. You've disclosed and declared it, so the listeners know. So I think that what happened, I don't know ultimately the thought processes tied to what the etiology, if you will, of what happened. However, I know what happened because I experienced it and so did many of you. When this thing was announced, I knew it was going to be pretty damn hot. And given the differences that the CE had, albeit subtle, there was still enough there that I thought the CE was going to be a good seller. We were not given our allotment of CEs prior to the reveal. In my opinion, that's mistake number one. How has it normally worked? Could you explain that real quick? It normally works, and that's why I don't know who's at fault here because it's true. JerseyJack is not used to selling out CEs. You can still buy Wonka CEs. They probably didn't think that they were going to sell out of CEs so quickly. They thought they maybe have enough time. They can wade through how many does distributor A want, how many does B want. We can add them all up. Okay, we've sold an extra 100. We're good. So I can see why they didn't think to give us an allotment prior to, But then again, they probably should have known this was going to be a pretty damn hot title. So just to be safe, they probably should have given us an allotment. What we as dealers did as soon as we sold the game, because remember, listener, we didn't have that distribution agreement until like an hour before the reveal. So most of the distributors did not see anything. And even during that distribution meeting, we didn't see anything. We saw no pictures. We saw no video. We saw nothing. We talked to Jack Guarnieri about the release of it. There was no question and answer portion. We were just given the heads up. So many of these distributors were seeing at the same time, and they were trying to make a decision based on a multitude of orders rather than just you as customer, a one-order kind of thing. So when we email and we message or call Jersey Jack and say, hey, I'd like to have 30 to 40 CEs, right? I get an interested list of about 40 people prior to you. Some of them are going to drop. Some of them will hang. Give me 30 to 40. Now there is a new, there's a new thing in distribution on JJP that we were being issued a, if you order a game, you're going to have to put a non-refundable deposit on it. A substantial non-refundable deposit. So that's, and that's new. That's new. So we, we kept that in mind. So it's not like we're over ordering, right? So we submit what we want for the CE initially. Again, we were not prompted to do this, but I think they were expecting us as dealers to do this. I merely did just because I was like, I've got to get my numbers in there so that they know and they can give me what I'm asking for because it's never been a problem before. I've never asked for anything from Jersey Jack Pinball and then say, no, sorry, you can only have X. Never. Neither has any other distributor to my knowledge. So even Wonka, Wonka was a hot hit at the beginning there, and I got all the C's I wanted. So when that happened, we didn't get a message back from JJP. We didn't get anything. At this time, people are still trying to order this game. So ethically, what do I do as a dealer? Do I make the sale? Do I put it in if I don't know how many I'm going to get? So distributors probably pressured JJP, and they're probably tired of hearing of us. But they said, hang out, wait, give us some time until we can figure out how many CEs are going to go to each of you guys. We now have most of all of you guys saying what you want CE-wise. Give us a second. We're trying to manage all of this, and then we will soon let you know how many CE's you have. That's fine if it lasts an hour or two, but then we wait until the next day, and I've got people beating on my door. Can I get a CE or not, Zach? I need to order direct. Wait a minute. There's the big issue. all along of us trying to figure out what we can sell to our customers that jjp hotline website is wide open taking all the ce orders at once now ultimately jjp is their company they can do whatever the hell they want right i agree with that the problem is we didn't know we were not informed appropriately in my opinion so some dealers because we had no direction some dealers took as many sales as they could get. It later bit them in the ass when they were given less than half of what they requested. Then that fell to the customer who was trying to be supportive of his distributor. There's a lot of benefits going through a distributor and not going direct. That's another podcast. But these people were then on a list, and what I was telling, because I try to be as honest and freaking ethical as possible, I told customers that called in, we are not giving an allotment list yet. Here's how many people I have in line. If you would like to take that chance, you can. I would like to think if I'm guessing here that I would get about this many, but I do not know. I don't know. If you order direct, I'm a pinhead. Number one, I don't blame you at all. And some of the listeners hearing me say this right now sounds just like a broken record from what I told them. I don't know. I don't know how many I'm going to get. so that following day we were finally given our allotment and dealers were pretty upset because i don't know and we've we've talked as dealers i don't know one that got close to what they requested so then it left us in a spot where dennis we had to start contacting people telling them i'm sorry um we can't get you a ce and they were pissed rightfully so they could have they They could have thrown their distributor beside and went direct and got it guaranteed, but they didn't. They tried to be loyal, and they got left in the dust. As I feel, I'm speaking just for myself, but myself as a distributor, it kind of felt that way initially as well. Of the, I guess, without having to have you name numbers, what percentage did you get of your request? Less than half. Okay. And that sounds akin to what I'd been hearing. The talk was from – everything else I understand is right. None of the distributors made out well in terms of getting what they wanted. All these angry customers about this. It's like, hey, you want an LE instead? I guess that's all you could say. Yeah, that's all I can say, and I got yelled at for that when I said, look, I'm unbelievably sorry on behalf of myself and Jersey Jack Pinball as one of the representatives. I'm sorry there's nothing I can do to make this right I tried to do a couple little things to make it better for LE buyers if they wanted to stay in but some of them just downright told me like fuck off like now you're trying to sell me on an LE screw you and they couldn't see where my mind and heart were at there but I don't know what else I could have done and other distributors probably felt the same way now in retrospect I'm very happy with what I was allotted because I wasn't guaranteed anything. I think that was a valuable lesson for us as dealers to learn is unless you have details, you're not guaranteed a damn thing. Don't expect anything. And that's where a lot of people were arguing on Pinside and on social media forums where they said this company doesn't owe dealers anything. That was their fault for thinking they were going to get so many and taking the orders. I can kind of see that viewpoint too Yeah I mean I get it but Jersey Jack chooses to have a distributor Network and I think we've talked about this with other companies But to me it's a very I find it very odd to straddle The line with saying we're going to do Direct sales where you know they're going to keep A higher profit margin on the direct sales And that's what I mean if you were to ask Me as a non-distributor Why would they do such a thing I would think what I believe a lot of people on the forums have thought, which is, oh, well, they don't have to give the distributors a cut if they sell direct. So let's gouge out as many CE sales as we can through the website while we drag everyone else along and then go ahead and let the distributors have the scraps. I would like to think there's two scenarios here. What I want to think as a happy and proud official distributor of George Jack Pinball is that they aren't accustomed to this. they were very much overwhelmed and they knew they made a mistake, but it's really kind of too late to do anything about it. So they're doing their best. That's what I would like to think. Well, they, they have sent signs of that. Like Kiefer did go on the forums and acknowledge that a mistake happened and someone didn't, I guess, didn't like the way he said it. And he went and clarified, I think the way I phrased this made it very clear that the mistake is on JJP side. And, and the cynical side of people may suggest, well, they kind of knew what they were doing. This is a new start for this company. They need the money. So they sold the ability and the opportunity. They pushed distributors back while they were making sales. And at some threshold, they started feeling a little guilty. So they cut off those online sales and pass the rest to distributors. I don't know what the answer is. I'd like to think it's a former. Maybe, maybe it's in the middle. I could definitely see like you stated earlier that in terms of they didn't expect that the CEs would even if they thought this is going to be a big hit and we're going to sell out. They didn't think they'd sell out day one. They didn't realize the power of their marketing campaign that it was that good. That this had so much, I mean it's just, as you noted I don't know if I would say laughable per se but nothing else like visually lives up to this including other JJP games. So it just, it stands alone in a unique way of presenting the theme integration so given that i would hope that they would have thought it was going to do well but i could see how they didn't think oh but it's going to be like even faster selling out than rick and morty and not having been prepared for that so they had their online store up they not having had the habit of giving distributors an allocation initially because there's not been a problem in the past i could see all of that happening uh that being said they clearly i I think know that it went too far. It went too far, though, because now you've got a situation that if you've got it set up in a way that distributors don't feel like it's worthwhile being a distributor for JJP, all that support they get through the distributors dealing with customer issues is going to flow through them, and they may not be equipped for that. I think that puts pressure on them going, you know, this – we've got like – as far as I know, every distributor is probably upset. Everyone that I spoke with is, yes. Yeah. So that's not a great place to be in as a company because this company, I think, relies a great deal on distributors. Spooky, I wouldn't be surprised to find, does most of their sales direct. I don't think JJP does. We didn't know. When you add all of the models. Yeah, with Spooky, we did know the allotment prior. right well but you see with spooky they know i mean everything is the whole run's limited so they're going to go in and they're going to be slicing all that up because they i mean spooky always sells out eventually now i did think that um there was a request from distributors for spookies uh rick and morty there was a request on allotment and i do believe that dealers did not get what they requested there either and it did feel very similar and akin to is this spooky trying to take advantage of a hot license here by not letting distributors. There was some of that. But very much like Charlie is Spooky, I would say to Jersey Jack as well, this isn't working. Either have a distributor network and support them and give them what they need to make sales or sell your own games. One of the two here. Right, because that's the other thing outside of the support is all the marketing that I see from all these distributors all the time pushing product. I mean, that's free for them. That's part of what the distributors are making money selling the game so that they get that. And I don't know if they're prepared to take it all on themselves. Maybe. I don't think they are. I don't know. But anyway, I just thought it was weird because it's a bad situation where, in my view, when it's not an issue of, okay, this is super popular. Not everyone who wants a CE is going to get a CE. That's the FOMO. That's the false scarcity you chose to dance with as a manufacturer. And most of the time, that dance ends in your privilege. But given people thought they had the game and then they didn't, that's terrible. Because there are going to be a lot of those people that will hold this against JJP. Here's the problem, Dennis. That's not true, though. What I'm seeing on the forums is they have learned one lesson, the customer base. They have learned that if you want a hot title, you order direct. That's the problem at the end of the day that I have with this. Yes, that's true. I do think there will be some people that will punish JJP on this, though. I don't think it even comes close to the amount that will just order direct. Well, they can't get a CE, so what I'm saying is that maybe. Now, that may very well be true. Now, here's what one distributor said to me that I thought was brilliant. I'm not going to name who they are, but they said, But look, for stuff like this, for your Yellow Brick Road Wizard of Oz, I think Yellow Brick Road Wizard of Oz was only allotted to the dealers. JJP did not sell those models that was to the distributors to sell. He said, why? Yeah, did those fly off the shelf, Zach? That's a different story. You don't need to answer that. I'll answer it for you. It did not. But he said, why don't the CEs, that should be for dealers to sell? If Jersey Jack can make an infinite amount of standards and nearly an infinite amount of LEs, they should be able to sell those as much as they want. But something limited like that, that should be a perk of being a dealer. That makes sense. Actually, I think that's a pretty, I think, nice idea to incentivize being a distributor. Yeah, because they're still making the money off of us as dealers purchasing them, right? Maybe they even bump that up a little bit if it's a hot. I don't know. But that makes sense. But Jersey Jack could do something to help in this situation. They haven't yet, but they could. It's still early. I mean, it has been less than a week that all this happened. I don't want to – They're trying to figure it out. I don't expect them to immediately come up with a solution. Yeah, and very quickly, the second issue that we're facing now is that LEs are being built, but we're also told that standards are being built. We don't know when CEs are being built. It's the little bit of lack of communication I've had. it sounds like hyperbole. It sounds like an exaggeration. It is not. I've had over 60 messages in the last 24 hours saying, Zach, when am I either getting my LE, or if I order from you, when am I looking to get my LE? And right now, I've asked Jersey Jack twice now. They're working on it. They've sent me messaging saying we're working on it. Bear with us here. Be patient. I don't know what to tell my customers. Are they ready in October, March? I have no clue. In the promo video, some of the promotional photos, it looked like they built a lot. What did they already build? What is that? I don't know how many. I just know that dealers got some for showrooms. I got a couple. Right. I got a couple of LEs. And we know some are on location. Yes. Some were out before Buffalo streamed. I know there were some out on location. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know if they're – I saw standards on the line. I don't know with however many I've bought how many I'll get. So when customers say, where am I at in queue? About how many do you think you're going to get in this first run? These are all things that Stern has perfected. They have perfected them. The only thing that Stern still struggles with is very much like the CE debacle. We're not given our LE allotment until after the game's already been announced. I'm taking a list of interested people, and I don't know how many LEs I'm going to get with Stern. that is always a balancing act that is never fun for us dealers and i'm not crying a river here don't feel sorry for us but it's just that's the complexity it comes with launch day kind of stuff it it's a mess interesting yeah so sorry there's a little inside well hey this is not this has been a big topic that people are definitely discussing online because it affected it affected customers So I think it was a good one to cover I can't say that I'm very happy with With this new production line New factory I was wondering how many issues I'd have out of the box Within LE So far pretty good The only thing I had to tweak was the flipper The flipper was a little soft I had to adjust the coil stop a bit But other than that It's been really good I will say they did forget They only gave me five balls and not six And I've heard somebody else report that Some of your early LEs might be short a ball Uh oh Neutered There's a ball shortage Yes I had one I've had some issues out of the box Before with JJP because I have my Stuff's in them I would say this is less Than that thus far Compared to the other titles I've got for JJP Good I think this is going to be A huge hit I'm going to project that It will now I'm wondering If they'll actually sell more of these than Woz That's always been my rule is nothing will outsell WOS because WOS was so cheap at first. Yeah, I just don't see how. And they've ran it so many times. But I'm going to say this will be second to WOS. That's where I'm going to come in at. Absolutely, without a doubt. I would put big money on that. Congratulations to Jersey Jack. Excellent launch again. The game looks incredible. They'll be very successful. They've got to be happy with this. And I think that they should really give a lot of credit to some of the creators and marketers that made it happen. Ken Cromwell, Eric Meunier, Joe Katz. There are six coders on this, Dennis. There is a huge team of people. And almost as many artists. Yeah, and I think they do appreciate these individuals as much. But, man, overnight, those brains just made a lot of money. Cha-Bradlee Ching! Talking about a lot of money, let's talk about Stern Pinball and the Elvira Topper. So how much is the Elvira Topper? It is $1,000 plus shipping. Oh, the rumors were true. Absolutely. I saw your shill video. How did you like it? Well, I fast-forwarded through half of it because I didn't really need to know how to put a topper on top of a game. It's so simple, too, with Sterns. I like how you were like, get rid of this last page saying install complete. Save some trees. that's my so that was the highlight for me because i like that you had a strong environmental message there you go there you go uh does it make you want to say buy buy buy um at that price absolutely not i the topper uh like quality wise looked good to me it's cool you highlight like how you know it's like a sculpted and stuff but i just thought the uh you know that flat panel lift thing for the scream i get it from an integration standpoint but it's like did that this is the topper doesn't even have color changing rgb though uh it may but it's not coated as such it looked like the eyes only flash red and then they're like green lights maybe there's some color changing under like the the back lighting but i just so other than a coil to lift the lid this topper is very it's just really the sculpt so why is it a thousand dollars i just uh i mean i understand because they're going to sell them because they can i guess i don't know yeah but i would absolutely i i wouldn't even be compelled to try and trust myself into a pretzel to buy this it's just to me no like i mean i could see people i know where here's where you're gonna here's what's gonna happen a bunch of people have bought like sle's and stuff and they're gonna be like this is the only way to properly complete the full look of the game and they're going to give you the thousand dollars but uh and you know the resale value on it means i can't say that it's a bad purchase because they'll probably get their money back out of it too so especially if the rumor of only making 200 is true yeah but again that's still just a rumor and so i it's i'm setting that aside and i'm just like i just don't know i can i can i can confirm here for the listener that their plan is to make 200. They're not calling it... This is straight from the source, people. They're not calling it limited edition because they're not ruling out making more, so they don't want... So this is like the Jurassic Park thing when you thought there was only going to be the one allotment originally. They've said very clear to me. They're like, no, our plan is we bought parts for 200, and that's what we're going to make. If for some reason we need to make more, we'll ultimately make more, but no, the plan is to make 200. Do you think that's because of... And maybe this is inaccurate, but last I had heard, you could still get R2-D2 toppers new. I still have them in stock. Okay, so they've learned from saying that limit earlier that that limit was too high. I would say that the desire and the collector, because this is kind of a collector thing, these toppers. I would say the collectability and the desirability for Elvira is higher than Star Wars. So that's going to be tough. It's a popular game. I mean, I would rather own Elvira than Star Wars as a pinball machine. Tough call for me there. But the toppers are doing very well. They are surprisingly, too. I had a lot of people on the interested list. Now, there were some people that messaged Nicole and I back when we sent them an invoice for $1,000. They said, you're smoking, right? But I think we could be sold out. I have to go back. I just, like I said, got back from out of town. but I think we're probably sold out of them. That's crazy. We've discussed it back when it was a rumor. I got a lot, Dennis. That's crazy. That's just really expensive, but it is what it is. But here's a fact, listener. If you have an Elvira pinball machine, it looks a hell of a lot better and cooler with the topper than without, period. Minus how much it costs. It a damn cool topper I going to counter and say Well I agree it looks cooler with a topper than without It doesn look cooler And that my measure I mean you guys got Some people it could be $10,000 cooler. To some people, $100 cooler. It's all relative. Sure. It is. But I think someone on this show needs to specify, bring it back to reality a little bit. I speak for the majority. And I agree. And I agree. I can't tell you this. I'm the plebe on this show. You are the LE. Oh, I can't wait until I get my collector's edition. The hoity-toity. Next to my LE. Oh, so much. I don't want to sink to a premium, but sometimes I just cannot wait. The heads must align. I can say that direct from the source of Stern Pimble, I was contacted by them yesterday. They were able to view the video. They were happy with it. They said that ideally their plan was to release this topper simultaneously with the 1.0 code, because we're at 0.99 on Elvira. And they said it's hard to always be able to match that up, but they wanted me to let people know and maybe do an updated video that once 1.0 code is released here soon, is what I'm being told, soon, for Elvira, you're going to see a ton more interaction with that topper. They were like, we love that you did the video. It was kind of tough because of how much we know is being added to the 1.0 code. But so as an update, if you already like what you see, kind of ain't seen nothing yet until the 1.0 code comes out. And it sounds like we're getting close to that. Here's what I would do, because obviously you're a distributor and you want to help sell product. And so it makes sense for you to do the video you did and do a new video like Stern is subtly, kindly suggesting that they would love for you to do. Why don't you say that you will be more than happy to do a new Topper Interactivity video when the video adapter is released again? Where is the video adapter? I actually had someone ask me yesterday on my birthday, where is the video adapter? Happy birthday. Where is my video adapter? He didn't say it quite like that. They're like, when is Stern going to sell the video adapters? I'm like, I don't know. Stern doesn't talk to me. If it makes you feel any better, I did ask at least. it didn't get an answer and they know that by now it's like funny it's like well if zach asked something because he will ask you can choose not to answer him he's not going to take that personally it's kind of a thing we have so i i don't have any information are you saying that i should ask no i wouldn't i wouldn't for everybody to ask if they want to this is dennis you know no you don't uh can you tell me when you're gonna release the adapter that's done Yeah, I don't know. I do know that the people that work on them that are in the parts and accessories department, they're freaking awesome people. They're great, but I don't know. I don't know what the plan is. I thought I'd bring it up while we were on Stern. I would love to know where the Stranger Things top. And look, I've asked, listener, I've asked Stern Pinball, hey, you know, Jack Danger's got the streams. You've got Marco and Emoto doing all your stuff. Can a guy get the accessories line, please? Just let me do the videos for that. Come on. Dwight, do you want to be a stern pinball ambassador? I would like to continue being a pinball ambassador, and toppers are kind of a part of it. Are you really an ambassador of this hobby? I think I put the ass in ambassador. Thank you. Okay. Yeah, I think I help move forward. Edit. I know I help move forward this hobby. So, yeah. I try and hold this hobby back, so I consider myself like a D ambassador. A pinball saboteur or something. I am a pinball digressor, thank you. Here I am trying to keep my fingers in all the holes popping up in the dam. I'm trying to stop these. No, I'm plugging this $1,000 topper thing. No, I'm plugging this. People order CEs and don't get them. We don't like multi-balls. We don't like ramps. I hate multiball. I hate combo non-combos. I don't care how many times your spinny disc can go spinny spin. That's what lube is for. Pinball's regressor, ladies and gentlemen. All right, so yeah, those are the topper updates. And did you notice, listener, I haven't talked about heavy metal yet, because I think, unfortunately, the Elvira topper was a bigger headline than the poor heavy metal release and stream this week. Oof. Well, they will probably sell more Elvira toppers than heavy metal. Oh, man. Damn. Oh, it was so sad. I haven't watched the stream yet, but I'm like... I know. I have not seen it, but the price point it's at and given what the layout is, I just... DMD game, I just... It'll shoot well. That's a guarantee. Star Wars, the pin shot well. And that means a lot, but the thing is you can get that same layout for less. I want to hear all of you damn competition players that's all about the blowing the... Where are you guys at? Where's your Win Schilling at for heavy metal? Shit. But they can already get the... They are going to already get the gameplay experience through another game. I would argue you couldn't. Why would you argue that? Because Star Wars the pin is created cabinet-wise from a different material. Thus, it's going to have a different feel. Yeah, but that's not going to affect gameplay. I think it could. How much you can nudge, move, the feel of it. Okay. I mean, I know MDF is a heavier wood, but there have been commercial pinball machines in the past that were MDF. Just ask Bally in the 80s. Yeah, exactly my point as well. Or Playmatic. They did MDF. Yeah, still might have a different feel. You get Spider-Man Home. It's very, very similar. And you know what? To be fair, the play field, the way they put the art down on the pen is different. And the play field is made out of something different. So I think very much so it will have a different feel. What did they make the play field out of? It's not that standard play field It's not the ply? I don't know I know it's not the same It's a different color It's different The way the art's adhered I think it might be a decal Overlay Write to George Gomez and ask What the difference is I'm not curious enough for me to do it myself Sorry heavy metal Heavy metal meltdown More like heavy metal letdown. Am I right? I already feel like this show has been big, but the only thing that can make it bigger, Dennis, is a little bit of what? I love this segment. Pinball! Oh, market! Oh, yeah! Woo! That was pretty loud. I'll probably get a complaint or two on that. You know, I had such a damn good political joke, and nobody messaged me in. Don't? No. With the dean? The Howard dean? Yeah, no. People don't want to talk about politics on pinball stuff. That was a good reference, but that was good. It was. It was clever. I'm giving you credit for it so you can keep you warm at night with that thought. Go ahead and do your mark. What's trending up? Turning up this week is Guns and Fucking Roses, baby, by Jersey Jack Pimble. I think it actually has that acronym on pin size, G-N-F-R, now. It just kind of is what it is. And probably got segregated from the Dead East one anyways. There's a Guns and Roses. There's a Guns and Fucking Roses. Right? That's the differentiator here. No J.J.P. neither. In particular this week, turning up is the C.E. and L.E. versions. The C.E., please don't make me explain that again. But the LE, I kind of thought about it today. I was like, playing the LE? Do I need any more than this? This is pretty much all that pinball could ever give me. Do I really need any more? The standard, I don't know. Nobody's really seen video of it. I haven't played it. So I don't know with the standard. They're still selling. Selling well. Not even close to as well as the LEs or subsequently the Cs, but they are selling. So you guys knew it, right? Trending up is going to have to be G&R. Also trending up this week is the Elvira Topper. My, my, my, I say because people are. Woo! And turn people away from a $1,000 topper? My word. I declare. What have we done to this industry with toppers? Topper love, y'all. Love, love, love. People are loving the Elvira Topper. Yeah, I guess. Numbers don't lie, Dennis. I only report the facts here. Yeah, we say that a lot. The Pinball Show presents the Pinball Market Trans. And also trending up this week is North Carolina. Yee-haw! I guess yee-haw is not... Yee-haw is Texas. Why are you making North Carolina cowboy country? I don't know. They're kind of a hybrid. Trending down Zach's knowledge of the cattle industry. I guess they're east. Where's North Carolina fall? Are they north or east? It's on the Atlantic coast. They're Atlantic? They're Easter's, right? Easter, eastern people? Eastern folk. I don't know. I mean, they're southerners, but... Oh, so they are. Southeasterners? You can't yeehaw it. Okay. Well, I mean, you can, but never mind. Woo-hoo! Go Blue Nails! Yeehaw is a cowboy thing, not a south thing. Tar Heels! Yes, there are some southern cowboys, but not in North Carolina. I guarantee there's a cowboy in North Carolina. Yeah, there's probably like five, but... Giddy-up. All right, go on. Why is North Carolina even in this list? That's what I was hoping for. All right, so North Carolina is on the list because personally, I've got to say, of all the states in the beautiful United States, flipping out pinball is loving them. Some North Carolina. Y'all in North Carolina, I have some, one of my biggest buyer bases for some reason is in North Carolina. Georgia, guess what? You guys are great. You're right there. You really are right there. Even South Carolina. You didn't think anybody in South Carolina played pinball? They do. plenty of South Carolina buyers and friends over there. But for some, Pennsylvania, that's good too. New York, my people's up there in New York. California, surprisingly. We don't really need to hear the entire flipping out ranked stateless. Texas, I got your back. But North Carolina folks, give yourself a round of applause. You are flipping out. Absolutely. I don't know why. North Carolina, coming out of nowhere, you're like one of my biggest peoples. Normally the pinball show isn't a super Like big commercial ad for flipping out That's kind of pushing it You know what Fair in all this discussion about distribution Fair but let me have one every ten episodes Just one I'm not stopping you I'm just pointing it out You got brownie points From all the fucking viewers for that one Unfortunately trending down this week Is everything else It's a buyers market right now y'all If you want to buy Your hand is on the throttle. You're the one driving this, bitch. Where are we going? No, I think that deal of the WTF Ironman is still like $7,500. So I'm not sure you're right. Jesus. Well, it's a rational, sane buyer's market right now. Everything is down. You name a pin right now, Dennis. Name one pinball machine besides GNR. Go. Avengers Ellie. That's actually down a little bit. No, it's not. You just have to say that because you fucked yourself in. I promise you. You fucked yourself in. It's an encyclopedia in my brain, my friend. They were going on $10,000 for a brand new 999. Or 9,099. It doesn't make less money. $91.99. It doesn't follow through. Right now? No one wants them anymore. They don't let the spinning disc because it's spinning enough. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Turn it down. This show is so stupid. Why do we do this show? Also turning down this week is black rubbers. How about it? No one's ever liked that. They shed little poopy strips everywhere. Even the black silicone. Here's what GNR also did. Whoever was smart enough over at that factory and the design team to put all translucent silicone should get a raise. because nothing should go in the majority of pinball machines in 2020 than translucent silicone. Period. Dot. The light saturation from all of the colorful LEDs does so much better than anything dark. And don't give me those ugly-ass colored silicone, people. Stop putting those in your machine. It's go translucent or go home! That's what I say. Black rubbers? Pfft. Nice try. You're so 1970s. That would be white. No. White rubbers are out, too. You get dirty. No, but in the 70s, they were using white. Oh, were they? Yeah. Oh. Whose idea was the black ones, then? I don't know. I don't know when they came in. But I think it used to just be white. Oh, and if you guys don't get those ugly-ass red rubbers off your flippers, Jersey Jack, come on. Stop with the red. You're giving us a lot going everywhere else. Red's fine. I put red on my firepower. They do play the best. I'll give them that. You took an entire Walking Dead and did it up in red. What the hell are you talking about now? That was red LEDs. Yes, which just made the whole thing look like, even the rubbers looked blood-drenched red by the time your lighting was done. Yes, but there was a nice hue and saturation in those translucent silicones that you're not going to get from a plain red silicone. It's not going to happen. And ladies and gentlemen, we've got it. Here it is, fresh off the press. Here's your viewer trend. And trending up this week is Zack's use of a cliffhanger from Batman. bye bye bye thank you Mr. Byers we appreciate that all the love out to Texas for you pew pew yeah go Tar Heels but this week but this week Tar Heels I don't I guess I switched it with the North Carolina yes we'll end you off with a little Deals of the Week bye bye bye that was a stripper that came to Dennis' house welcome to the pinball showers Zach has pissed off everyone in the state strippers Texas North Carolina. Yeah, right. Congratulations, Robert. Here, right? Choice of North Carolina Tardis. The Rubber Company. Everybody. Still gone. Not rubber. Let's do a really fast Deals of the Week. Deals of the Week this week. Check out Mike Exotic. Oh, boy. Out of Mary in North Carolina. See, North Carolina. There he is. He's got a Marvel's Avengers Blue Album Pinball Machine. Go Texans. Oh, wait. That's the wrong state. Hang him horns. We've got a Marvel's Avengers package. They're going to give you the most beautiful Marvel's original Stern pinball machine, Blue Ellie Edition. Plus, you get the arcade cab, too. You like the arcade cab, that Marvel vs. Capcom? You get the package deal for $6,600. I don't think it's too bad. I don't know anything about arcade value, so I can't say. I figured it was about $1,000 at least, right? I don't know. I'll put you mid-fives for Avengers the blue one that's rare. Yeah, I think it's the deal of the week. Avengers the blue one. That's right. TBL. The blue. Oh, also, where are we going? Oh, the Moss Group. What a distributor. You've got to go over to the Moss Group. CMOS on Pennside. They're selling the Beatles new in box for $64.50. Oboe? Guess what, guys? I can't buy one for that as a dealer. so you know that that is a deal of the week. $64.50 Oboe? Give him $6,200. He probably has too many in inventory. Wowzers. Buy, buy, buy! Buy that one. That's a hell of a deal. And a Guardians of the Galaxy Ellie with the topper. I heard those were trending up. By our friend Joe Fox, Mr. Dealman himself up in Middletown, Delaware. Go something in Delaware. There's nothing in Delaware. Sweet Jesus. I think you could skip through Delaware in an hour and a half, right? It's a smaller state. Can you skip through the entire state in an hour and a half? I think so. You didn't even name them in your list of, hey, flipping out supporters, so I guess you've never sold a game up there. Well, to be fair with Joe Fox, it is pretty trendy up there. Buys all our machines. So, yeah, he's got a stock Guardians. I think I probably sold this to him. And the topper, 8,000 oboe. Joe, you're giving it away. It's only got the 700 plays. It's brand new. Buy, buy, buy! Yeah, and these are harder to find, the Guardian's premium LEs. So I would say, without a doubt, $8,000 or best offer. And your last thing is going to be a deals of the what, who, what, how? What is this? I stumbled upon this on Pinside, Dennis. By the way, just a really quick one. Went to see, what is the state of Delaware known for? Oh, no. Joe Fox? No, it just says state beverage, milk. And at that point I closed my window Because I just didn't care Could you get more plain Exactly State flowers and state fish is weak fish Weak fish Alright so this is a deal that I don't know where to place this But I'm intrigued Out of Evansville, Indiana Pinsider by the name of Extra Ball With only one X Aren't you in Evansville? I'm in Evansville They've been a They've been a person They've been a pin sider for under a year They're selling a Black Knight Sword of Rage Pinball topper new in the box It's your son He went on and listed your Black Knight That son of a bitch It might be It says they opened it to confirm there was no shipping damage But the topper itself was unboxed That's not possible But they're asking $1,000 Oboe For this Sword of Rage topper now they're in my backyard I know everybody in Evansville that does pinball who is this mystery extra ball I need an employee extra ball shout out help a guy out so this just intrigued me I just don't know who this is and this is not a big town and they've not reached out to me must be fucking Nate Shivers fans over there or something whatever Yeah, I just can't believe they didn't go and kiss the ring before listing it I get all my information from Twip, thank you And I'm hoping we'll listen to anything or watch nothing Probably Twip fan That was a deal of the week! Come on! Mark Trey? Can't sing? Just mumble? Well, I guess I can sign off then That would be a good idea Let's get the hell out of here Dennis, where can people check you out between now and the next time? Besides the Pitbull Networks, gmail.com. Yeah, they can always go to CollectedGamersPodcast.gmail.com or go to Facebook.com. So that's CollectedGamersPodcast. That's the other podcast I do with Tony. Man, you and Tony got a little warm last time there. Strong takes. He got very upset with a lot of things, to be frank. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't know how to encapsulate that easily. So let's just say, Tony, sometimes it's not just Dennis who has the dander up. Tony had some dander up there. He was even going against the poor Deep Seal team, Deep Root Six. Deep Seal Six. Just imagine a seal with an eye patch. Like an actual million seal. Or, or. Yeah. Or with a hammer and one flipper. I was trying to do a seal with an R. R, or. Yeah, a pirate seal doesn't work. Doesn't work, whatever. Hey, what's your distributor company? We haven't heard it at all this episode. Oh, speaking of, if you guys are ready to buy a brand-new pre-owned pinball machine, an Escalera stair climbing hand truck, call your favorite dealer. You're going to buy from somebody. Might as well buy from a friend that's helping create media for you to enjoy. It's a match made in heaven, you and I, as we skip off into the sunset with our brand-new Avengers LE. Come on. 812-457-9711 or email me at Zach, Z-A-C-H at flip, the letter N, outpinball.com. It's always a lot faster when you text or email people. I love you. I want to chat with you, but those go on a queue list. Got to call those people back. And you can see our street down the middle of Pimble. Damn it. We didn't even get to talk about the fucking goat unboxing. I didn't see that. Tune in next week when Dennis gives his opinion on me unboxing a pinball machine with the greatest of all time, acronym for goat and that's what it was it was a goat yeah someone spoiled it for me name was keith that's close right yes goat name almost identical oh uh albert alger would never know the difference he tickled my hand when he was licking it oh did you uh slap that ass oh damn it i didn't he was a little dirty i'm gonna lie but i wanted him i still wanted him he was like one of the those shitty stepchildren. There's great stepchildren out there. There's some real bastards out there. He's like one of those where you're like, I kind of want you. I don't want to call you my own, but not so much. So what's on TPN this week? Oh, TPN this week. New Silver Ball Chronicles? I hope. I think it's close. I'm not promising that it'll be out this week, ladies and gentlemen, but it's possible. Well, people need to check out Silver Ball Stories. Josh Jacobs is having a monthly special. He loves everything horror, and In October, every Saturday, you're going to have a brand new Silver Ball Stories little episode. And the one this last week featured you, Dennis Kreisel. And may I say your acting was superb. I wish I after I did it, I remembered what he was riffing off of. Like the script was very similar to a horror movie, but I didn't remember initially. I wish I had done it. It was Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2. Oh, for my part with the radio station. Yeah. And I've only seen that movie once. So I should have gone back to see if I could have watched her. It's a woman in that one, and I wanted to remember how she delivered her lines. But I also am lazy, so I didn't do that. Man, you did a superb job there. A lot of creativity over there. I think we also get a Final Round Pinball podcast video this week. I think Marty Robbins and Jeff Tielis are doing a video that you can find on Final Round at their Facebook where they're going to be discussing pinball podcasts. I don't know any more than that, but I'm intrigued. Wow. Is this going to be a trending segment you used to try and do that upset everyone? You'll have to wait and see. Like he's copying off of Nate Shivers. Nate never did that. I am the sole proprietor of Femalemarket Trends. All right. I think that's it, y'all. Damn, what a week. What a week this has been. Woo! All the emotions this week. tune in next week as Dennis and I plot to take over the pinball world. It was as a pinky in the brain reference. It was, it was tried, but then I thought, damn it, I'm pinky. That's not going to work. Hmm. For Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Minney. And remember, you can keep your hands extra warm with hot rails. Always practice safe pinball and go to a distributor first, people. Up. So long, everybody.