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Ep 64: Slosh

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 26m·analyzed·Dec 22, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Host criticizes Led Zeppelin (Pro), offers tournament advice, discusses venue lighting debate.

Summary

Final Round Pinball Podcast episode featuring a drunk holiday special where the host discusses playing Led Zeppelin for the first time and harshly critiques it as potentially the worst Stern game ever made, followed by tournament strategy advice to a listener and discussion of venue lighting standards at District 82.

Key Claims

  • Led Zeppelin Pro is possibly the worst Stern game ever made

    medium confidence · Host (drunk, self-described as 'really boozed up') made this statement during gameplay discussion at Christmas party

  • Led Zeppelin Pro has an empty playfield with no satisfying shots and awkward geometry

    high confidence · Host described playfield extensively: 'There is nothing on this play field. Agreed. But also, what is on the playfield is not enjoyable to shoot. They're all in the weird locations.'

  • Led Zeppelin is inaccessible to casual/novice players despite being strong code

    high confidence · Host: 'I have a machine, the only thing that saves it is the code for me. The code makes it very, very challenging. It's a great tournament game, believe it or not. But it's one of those games where I am having trouble seeing novices find enjoyment in it.'

  • District 82 held a vote on venue lighting: 40 votes for lights on, 32 for lights off

    high confidence · Host described voting outcome: 'they took a vote and it was 40 for lights on 32 for lights off and almost to a person all the pro players with the exception of one said lights on'

  • IFPA will determine lighting for North American Championships and IFPA Pin Masters at District 82, and they will have lights on

    high confidence · Host: 'when the IFPA is running the North American Championships there and IFPA pin masters, they're renting out that facility. They will determine whether the lights are on or off. And they told everyone right now, they will be on.'

  • PinTips.net provides quick tournament strategy information without requiring advance preparation

    high confidence · Host recommending resource: 'pin tips.net is the quickest way you don't have to you don't have to do it in advance you can be at the tournament type in the game name'

  • Listener Jay from Cleveland can find tournaments through IFPA calendar and local Kid Force tournaments

    high confidence · Host recommending: 'Look for Kid Force on Facebook. Look, a lot of tournaments in Ohio... there's the big Kleepin show... in September, and that's part of the Stern Pro Circuit'

Notable Quotes

  • “I think that Led Zeppelin, this is the pro. I've not played the premium or LE. I think the pro Led Zeppelin, possibly the worst Stern game that's ever been made.”

    Host (Ryan C.) @ Early discussion section — Strong critique of recent Stern release; indicates potential quality issues or design philosophy disagreement

  • “When I walked up to it and looked at it, I thought it looked like a $30, $40, $50 toy that you would buy at a toy shop, like a toy pinball machine.”

    Host @ Led Zeppelin discussion — Describes visual presentation and build quality concerns

  • “I think Steve Ritchie's gone, fuck you. If this is how you're going to treat me, I am going to make this fucking tough game to punish you all.”

    Host @ Led Zeppelin analysis — Speculates on designer intent regarding game difficulty; jokes about Steve Ritchie's motivation

  • “The first thing you need to overcome is your fear of being in a tournament. That is the hugest, hugest thing to overcome.”

    Host @ Tournament advice to Jay — Core advice to new tournament players; emphasizes psychological barrier over technical skill

  • “And for me, I know the moment I became a better pinball player, a better tournament player, was the day I said, fuck it, I don't care anymore. And I stopped being nervous because nerves are the things that's going to just absolutely derail you every time.”

    Host @ Tournament psychology discussion — Personal insight on competitive improvement and mental state

  • “Pinball is a living, fluid thing. Pinball is magic. And we are the magicians.”

    Host @ Philosophical reflection section — Philosophical take on pinball; captures the community's emotional attachment to the hobby

  • “I've got to go. Simon went, didn't he? Yeah, from Australia. Emily Cosson was there. I think Dr. John's probably been there as well, but it's a lot of fun.”

    Host @ District 82 venue discussion — Confirms attendance of international and notable players at District 82

Entities

Ryan C.personJeff TeolispersonDave HashmanpersonDanger RaypersonStacey BorgpersonDr. Curly TechpersonJohn BorgpersonSteve RitchiepersonEmily Cossonperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Host expresses severe criticism of Led Zeppelin Pro's playfield design, ergonomics, and layout, calling it possibly the worst Stern game ever made despite strong code

    high · Detailed complaints about empty playfield, unsatisfying shots, awkward geometry, poor flippers, and toy-like appearance

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Led Zeppelin Pro creates disconnect between casual accessibility and competitive tournament viability - excellent tournament game but punishing for novices

    high · Host: 'The code makes it very, very challenging. It's a great tournament game, believe it or not. But it's one of those games where I am having trouble seeing novices find enjoyment in it.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Speculation that Steve Ritchie deliberately created extremely difficult tournament game, possibly as response to criticism about ease or accessibility

    low · Host's drunken speculation: 'I think Steve Ritchie's gone, fuck you... I am going to make this fucking tough game'

  • ?

    code_update: Ghostbusters code update prioritized casual accessibility but damaged competitive tournament balance through multiplier and left ramp gear buildup mechanics

    medium · Email from top 100 player Emil: 'destroyed tournament play by the multiplier and the gear buildup on the left ramp'

  • ?

    venue_signal: District 82 lighting standards debate: venue regulars prefer darkness, traveling/pro players prefer lit cabinets for visibility and glare control

    high · Vote result: 40 lights on vs 32 lights off, with pro players favoring lights and locals preferring dark

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.258

0:00
Hello. That's the deepest you've ever been. I can assure you it's not. The Pinball Network is online.
0:16
Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:47
There is no way there's another show this quickly. It's impossible. Or a Christmas miracle. well hello hi welcome to the final round people podcast that is an eggnog
1:13
oh well you know it's a it's a sunday here in sunny australia it's christmas time we've got a week. Is that right? Is it a week today? It's the 18th here. What day? It's 25th, isn't it? Christmas? Yep. Apparently, every year. So it's a week to go. And I know I'm off topic already.
1:38
Listener, I'm... Yeah. But what you don't know is that in five hours time, I'm recording another podcast so i'm getting myself into the christmas spirit oh please tell me a head-to-head yep attaboy you didn't have to do this one if you're doing a head-to-head why didn't you tell me uh because i thought because i thought let me just get drunk and do fun around because it doesn't matter and then i'll warm myself up to the main event this is gonna be great okay we'll keep this Short and sweet because I don't want you to lose your voice. But what a great double bill this. Now, who edits head-to-head? Okay, so I'm editing this one. Yeah. Double Marty. Oh, this is going to be great. It'll be interesting. So I'm just sort of getting myself into, as I said, the Christmas spirit. And the point I was going to make, this is my side note, is we are old, right? We've established that I always joke about the fact that Jeff is older than me, and it's a fact. Jeff will always be older than me. He's older than most people. But the point of it is I think the older you get, the quicker the years go by.

  • Host has been attending pinball tournaments for 8+ years and finds them addictive

    high confidence · Host personal statement: 'I've been doing this for eight-plus years, and I find them addictive. That's why I do so many.'

  • Tournament play can negatively impact the enjoyment of certain games like Addams Family and Twilight Zone

    high confidence · Email from Emil (top 100 player): 'some games are ruined by tournament play. The example of Adam's Family and Twilight Zone we gave last week'

  • Ghostbusters code update made it easier for casual players but damaged tournament balance through multiplier and left ramp gear buildup

    medium confidence · Email from Emil: 'Ghostbusters after the new code update. It was made easier and more enjoyable for casual players, but destroyed tournament play by the multiplier and the gear buildup on the left ramp.'

  • “Almost to a person all the pro players with the exception of one said lights on yes almost all the locals said lights off because we're used to that”

    Host @ District 82 lighting vote discussion — Notes split between competitive/visiting players and local venue regulars on lighting preference

    • Simon
    person
    Dr. Johnperson
    Emilperson
    Jayperson
    Don Johnsonperson
    Ian Harrowerperson
    Ryan C.person
    Jimmy Nailsperson
    Ericperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    District 82venue
    IFPAorganization
    Kid Forceorganization
    Kleepinevent
    PinTips.netproduct
  • ?

    community_signal: Significant listener interest in competitive tournament participation; mental/social barriers more important than technical knowledge

    high · Email from Jay requesting tournament strategy advice; host emphasis on overcoming fear rather than rules memorization

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Multiple games cited as having tournament-breaking imbalances: skill shot dominance in Big House, multiplier lock-out in Whitewater, wizard mode inaccessibility in Addams Family and Twilight Zone

    high · Multiple examples: 'if you didn't get the five times multiplier give it up' (Whitewater), 'unless you get the mega stack you're not worth getting out of bed' (Bram Stoker's Dracula)

  • ?

    event_signal: District 82 attracted international pinball players including competitors from Australia, indicating venue status as destination tournament location

    high · Host mentioned Simon from Australia and Emily Cosson attending District 82

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: IFPA will set lighting standards for North American Championships and IFPA Pin Masters at District 82, selecting lights on configuration

    high · Host: 'when the IFPA is running the North American Championships there... They will determine whether the lights are on or off. And they told everyone right now, they will be on.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Notable shift in host's opinion on Steve Ritchie: acknowledges career success with 'more winners than losers' but Led Zeppelin represented significant disappointment

    high · Host: 'he has more winners than losers. This one is just disappointing... it's my favorite band, and I... as a parent, you say, I love all my children, but don't put a lie detector on me'

    • 3:01
    There's less left in the hourglass. That's why. I just think that's because there's one week to go until it's Christmas time. Where the fuck did this year go? It's been three years of just, you know, because of COVID. Thanks, Ian. Sure. Ian, fucking Christmas Scrooge. Anyway, time does tick. And now it's summer there in Australia, which is weird here in Canada. And I'm going to jinx myself by saying this, but it hasn't really felt like Christmas because there hasn't been a lot of snow on the ground. Of course, now that I say that, expect several inches of snow.
    3:42
    No, I knew. You said several, so it could only be snow. There we go. Anyway, so it doesn't feel like Christmas, but sure enough it is. And we're a week away and a little Christmas treat for you from the final round. So you actually had a nice Christmas party. I saw Hashman and Danger Ray talk about their party. Give me the deets.
    4:04
    Well, I mean, every year. So Dave Hashman and Danger Ray, they are a couple and they are freaking amazing people. And they were on your podcast when you were at Expo. So Dave has a company that does repairs of PCs and laptops and all that kind of stuff. And every year he has a Christmas party at his house. Because he steals all the passwords and he gets all kinds of credit card numbers. I get it. Go on. I've been going to this Christmas party for years now, but only just realized last year that it's actually his company Christmas party, but everybody's invited. So I got to go. The usual suspects are there. Ryan C. was there. You know, all the – Stacey Borg. Go on. Say it. Stacey Borg.
    4:53
    Dr. Curly Tech. Yeah, Dr. Curly Tech. And so many people that I should mention by name, but just insert name here, assume that I've mentioned you. Just a great, great Christmas party, just all the pinball folk. But something happened at this event that is a long time coming. I got to play something that I have not played. And obviously, it's a pinball machine. Oops, okay. My thoughts are gone now. I had to talk. Oh, yeah. You were back to Soggy Sayo again. Yep, exactly. Mystery dump. It came back. That'd be a good place to do it. I know. So, a machine that came out a while ago that I got to play for the first time. See if you can guess it. Trying to think because I've seen a lot of Danger Ray streams. I know you've, okay, within the last four years? Yes, possibly. Yep, probably. Maybe. Yes. Yes or no? I think so. I've lost track of time. Oh, it's around there. Hmm. Boy. No, I reckon it's probably two years old. Zeppelin? Yes. I didn't think, because I've never heard you talk about playing Zeppelin. And which version do they have? The Pro. Which is actually my favorite version of it. Go on. What'd you think?
    6:16
    Um, okay. Let me start, let me start with the positives. Pour a drink. Go ahead. The positives are that it is a pinball machine that exists. Oh, jeez. Wow. Go on.
    6:36
    Listeners, I am going to be unkind. Now, I shouldn't be unkind. But you're boozed up, so it's the booze talking. I am really boozed up at the moment. So I'm going to say I think that Led Zeppelin, this is the pro. I've not played the premium or LE. I think the pro Led Zeppelin, possibly the worst Stern game that's ever been made. Wow.
    7:07
    Wow. I would rather Rolling Stones over Led Zeppelin. Not me. No, no. It's not that. No. It's that bad. No, there's a bit of hyperbole there, but what I will say is this.
    7:22
    And none of it's good. Oh, my God. Oh, gosh, this was a brilliant idea. Go on. Okay. When I walked up to it and looked at it, I thought it looked like a $30, $40, $50 toy that you would buy at a toy shop, like a toy pinball machine. Now, before you say that, Google the album Led Zeppelin III. No, it's not about the art. Oh. I mean, it's about the art. But it's not about that. It's, you know how people often say, oh, you know, there's nothing in the play field. It's so empty. And I just think, oh, that's just because art and all that kind of stuff. There is nothing on this play field. Agreed. But also, what is on the playfield is not enjoyable to shoot. There is not a single satisfying shot. They're all in the weird locations. The flippers felt fucked. It just had really balked geometry, I think is the best way to describe it. It just didn't feel good. Didn't feel good. I'm not crazy about the layout either. and I have a machine, the only thing that saves it is the code for me. The code makes it very, very challenging. It's a great tournament game, believe it or not. But it's one of those games where I am having trouble seeing novices find enjoyment in it. And somebody who's never played pinball, if that's the first game they're going to play,
    9:01
    they will be disappointed. I can look at a game. I played it tonight. I played World Cup Soccer 94. Look at that goalie go back and forth. Score some goals. That's kind of fun. Good things will happen. You know? You can explain that. On Zeppelin, shoot that left ramp three times to get a multi-goal? Oh, then do what? Yeah. No, you're right. It's not accessible, I think, is, you know, putting all my drunken rant aside, if I can be really objective about it, and I will be, I think it's basically what you're saying is that I don't think it is an easy game. I don't think it is a moderate game. I think it is a punishing, brutal game. I think Steve Ritchie's gone, fuck you. If this is how you're going to treat me, I am going to make this fucking tough game to punish you all. Fuck off, cunts. And I quote. That's what Steve Ritchie said. The following may or may not have been said by Steve Richie.
    10:06
    But likely. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just. Well, what sucks is there are guys there, especially like John Borg, who absolutely loves Led Zeppelin, who would have loved to have this, but I think Steve had first crack at it. And I'm not saying, hey, listen, you and I are both Steve Richie fans, so when you have a career like him, not everything is going to be a winner, but he has more winners than losers. This one is just disappointing. It is disappointing. It's my favorite band, and I, you know, there are a lot of people listening that have children, okay?
    10:40
    Hopefully none of them are listening to this show. And, you know, as a parent, you say, I love all my children, but don't put a lie detector on me. You know what I mean? So I love all my children, but when I look at my pinball machines, I love all my pinball machines. Yeah, it's Anyway, so you got to play it I hope the rest of the party was better Oh no, the rest of the party Was fantastic I had a friend with me that doesn't Play pinball all that often And they're like, oh what game should I play And I said, go and play Twilight Zone, tell me what you think And then it was, go and play Godzilla Tell me what you think I just sent him to all the games that I hate And he kept coming back going, oh I really like that one Yeah, okay. There you go. What a guy. Wow. So, look, great. Great. I just really like pinball people. I really do. They're just good people. What I do like, and the reason why you and I get on so well... Slow down. Sorry to disappoint. I am drunk, obviously. But the reason why you and I get on so well and why I get on along with a lot of different pinball people is we are more than just pinball people and i know that that that confuses some people they're like well hang on you stream pinball you work for a pinball company and you do a pinball podcast surely that's all you're about it's like well actually no and you and i very rarely talk about pinball if we're really honest you and i very rarely actually talk about pinball until the microphones are on. Do you know what I mean? And that's what I like. I like meeting pinball people that are more than just pinball people. There you go. I've said it. Somebody asked me, what podcast do you listen to? And I know what they were asking. They were asking which pinball podcasts I listen to. And there are some.
    12:38
    There are some pinball podcasts I listen to, but my go-to podcasts are not pinball podcasts. You know, it's... I don't know. I think we all have a little variety it's not just pinball pinball is the one thing that brings us together but um i have other interests and uh sometimes especially you when you work in pinball i don't work in pinball i travel and play a lot of pinball but i'll give you an example i was at district 82 last weekend i haven't played a pinball machine since then i'm pinballed out so uh you must be pinballed out too so yeah we need other sources of entertainment yeah i i think if i can if i can To summarize 2022, I've had enough pinball. Yeah. You need a little bit of a break. Well, that's one of the things I wanted to ask you, and we'll get to that in a bit. But I want you to think a lot about what 2023 will be like and maybe some predictions. So that's coming up on the show. I did mention District 82. We're going to talk a little bit more about that. Since you're into it right now, I might as well ask you. I was going to save this for later. I had somebody ask me tonight. I've got some people coming over that are not pinball players, and they don't want to play me in pinball because they think, oh, you'll just win. But what I want to do for New Year's is have some pinball drinking games. Do you know any? Maybe our listeners know some of them, but I can only kind of think of two things. I said, well, do stall ball. That could be fun. Oh, my God. That'd be a good drinking game. Do you know what? Isn't it weird? As you were talking, I was thinking, okay, as soon as he finishes talking, I'm going to say stall ball. And it's exactly what you said. But I think that's a good entry-level game for anybody because it's not about the rules of the game or how good you are. It's just got to fucking get the ball into a hole. One of life's greatest challenges for sure. No question about it.
    14:29
    The other thing I was thinking is play some split flipper. If you want to have a little mini tourney, I mean, nothing is more fun than split flipper. I miss playing those in events. It's my buddy Ian Harrower and I. The last time Papa ever happened was a good split flipper competition. And we're doing well. We're looking at each other and we're going, we're really taking a lot of time away from the tournaments we care about, but this is just so much fun. Well, you know, I did actually in 2022 went to one tournament, just one, and they actually did have a split flipper tournament, but it was a no-hands split flipper tournament. Not the crotch one. Well, you could use... That Ryan C does. It's the Ryan C one. You could use your crotch if you wanted. It turns out using your crotch isn't actually as controllable as using your thigh. Whoa. Okay, your thigh. Yeah, a little hip check, sure. That's fine. A little twerking. But speaking of crotch, I disagree because on our last program, we talked about some crotch movements, and I've been dying to ask you how it was going to work in track pants with that raging boner. How did that... Did you get a call from HR at all or anything like that? I am HR as well.
    15:42
    So it was a very, very difficult and awkward conversation I had with myself. HR standing for Huge Rod, not Human Resources. You actually are the HR guy. I hear you're on a podcast talking about boning up. I just took a drink. I nearly spat that out. And that's precious gin, so we're not going to be doing that. Okay. Yeah, Huge Rod. That's basically what it is.
    16:08
    We're going to reverse things. Normally we save our emails to the end, but last program you asked our listeners to basically do some research for you. Yeah. I thought that was pretty funny. But people responded. They responded not only on our Facebook, but they sent us some emails and other good things. What did you learn, Marty, from our listeners? Well, again, I said email us because we love getting emails, and we do. I'm not sure I necessarily got too much helping me out so I can design machines in the future, but we did actually get a lot of people talking about tournaments. And in particular, in fact, the emails that we got were basically saying, thank God we started talking about tournaments again. So, you know, you're welcome. But there was one particular email that really sort of tickled me because I remember we started talking about tournament tournament and you said last episode, oh, everyone's probably tuning out now. I said, well, here's what I was trying to think at the time. Do you think top competitive pinball players are going to be listening to our podcast? I know several. Yeah, I'm not sure they're going to learn much from us. No, but they can relate to some of the thoughts we have, whether they agree or disagree. Sure. For me, the reason why I say that is the thing for me is that what I've always wanted to get out of this podcast is I've actually wanted to get more and more people into tournaments. That's what I want to do. And I want to sort of break that barrier of people that are a bit scared. So here's this particular email that we got that made me very happy. This is from Jay. He said, I heard you say you didn't think anyone was going to be listening when you talked about tournaments. I found it fascinating, and as a casual player who wants to try a tournament but is intimidated, I really like to hear your thoughts on something. How does one strategize for a pinball tournament? In my head, I would have to know in advance what games I would be playing. Then I would have to probably Google each game and figure out which shots or modes are the high scores. Is that pretty standard strategy for people who want to compete in tournaments? Again, I know darn near nothing and have never participated in a tournament but would like to. I just don't want to get my ass totally handed to me. Maybe that's inevitable, but any tips on how to strategize for a tournament, Any tips on how to strategize for a tournament? I'd greatly appreciate it. He also said he loved the podcast, but sure. I mean, everyone says that. Jay in Cleveland, thanks very much for that email. That was a good one. And I didn't think about that stress when I went to my first tournament. And there were more than half the games I had never played before. As I played more and more tournaments, I'm like, okay, I want to do better. So I should do what he suggested and Google and things like that. But if it's something that you're thinking about right off the bat, pin tips.net is the quickest way you don't have to you don't have to do it in advance you can be at the tournament type in the game name it'll give you five tips here are the basic things to do because even myself who's played in a lot of tournaments and and other people i just want to know give me two or three things what to do i don't need to know all the rules i don't need to know the stacking what do i do on the left flipper what do i do on the right flipper where should i plunge? Maybe where's the lock to start a multi-ball? That's kind of it. That's it. Great answer, but incorrect. Well, it works for me. According to my ranking, it seems to be working pretty damn good. Okay, but my point... No, and obviously I'm being a little bit facetious but what I'm trying to say is, Jay, to you directly, if that's what makes you feel comfortable, go to Pintips. Go and find out the rules. But that's actually not the point. The first thing you need to overcome is your fear of being in a tournament. That is the hugest, hugest thing to overcome. I can tell you now for every player, unless you're a superhuman, every player that starts in tournaments fears being in a tournament. Am I not good enough? Are people going to laugh at me? Am I going to do the wrong thing? Am I going to play out of turn? Am I going to come last? these are the fears that people have going into tournaments and here's what i say to you jay directly to you come last what fucking do the wrong thing absolutely get it all fucking wrong just get it out of your system oh yeah everyone everyone has done that everyone has done that if you if you're worried because you want to go into a tournament and you want to come first or you want to be the best or you want to make sure that you hit the right shots, that's not going to happen. I think you need to free yourself from that constraint because that's just going to make you even more nervous. And for me, I know the moment I became a better pinball player, a better tournament player, was the day I said, fuck it, I don't care anymore. And I stopped being nervous because nerves are the things that's going to just absolutely derail you every time. What are your thoughts? No, that's for sure. The nerves are definite poison, and the more relaxed players are usually the better players. I see people that just lose their shit after draining a ball Well guess what You going to drain the ball and people don accept it And oh did you see what happened Oh, what, physics?
    21:38
    Odds of probability? Yeah, you're going to fucking drain. That's the way they're designed. So don't worry about it. And, again, you kind of want to also have that room for improvement. Let's say you go out there and you smoke it. Well, then you've set the bar maybe a little too high. I always play a tournament and I just try to play my best and I definitely try to have fun. But if I look back and I'm like, where were my weaknesses? Well, it was that game because I kept making the same mistake over again or I didn't know the rules. Okay, that's an easy fix. Go learn the rules. But, you know, you kind of feel out, okay, what's good, what's bad? And there will be good things. So, yeah, just have some fun. Really, you're right. It's doing that first tournament. And by the way, most people I've been in, whenever I go to a tournament, whenever I run a tournament, if you know someone's new and they say, oh, that's my first ever tournament, people are like, oh, that's awesome. Good for you. And people will say, do you know what to do? Do you want to know what to do? And they'll help you out. And you'll feel like a million bucks. Jay, I hope you do it. And especially in Cleveland, they have Kid Force there. Speak to Don Johnson. Look for Kid Force on Facebook. Look, a lot of tournaments in Ohio. Of course, there's an Ohio show, I think it's in April, and then there's the big Kleepin show. I was about to say, there's Kleepin. That's the only one I know. Well, yeah, there's lots of stuff going on, but that's in September, and that's part of the Stern Pro Circuit. That doesn't have to be your first one. You can build up to that. Do some of those, I think they're Monday nights, Kid Force, but look on the IFPA calendar, whatever city you're in, and it can give you a radius of whatever, how many miles or kilometers you want, and you can find some tournaments, and it tells you who the tournament director is, and send them a note and say, hey, I'm thinking about coming. Am I going to be okay? And people will help you. We want to see, like you said, you started this podcast, you want to see more people in competitive pinball. I want to see more people playing and joining IFPA as well. So, yeah, I absolutely agree with all of that. And two more extra things that I wanted to just say to Jay and anybody else that's still on the fence and still sort of reluctant. And I remember I thought it was very weird going to my first pinball tournament. Were you wearing track pants?
    23:56
    No. But ever since then. But I just remember going to the very first tournament, and it was at the Peacock Inn. Jimmy Nails was running it. And I was really reluctant to go because I just thought to myself, I'm going to be going into this place with a room full of strangers. I'm going to be playing pinball in front of people. I don't know anything about tournaments. I don't know anything about rules. Are they going to like me? Am I going to feel like an outcast? They're all the things that happen. So, Jay, I'm just going to tell you a couple of things. I think your first objective when you go to your first tournament is get to know someone. Get to know someone. Get a buddy because those buddies will actually guide you to become a better tournament player and they will also make you feel better about whether you win the first tournament or come last. It's the people around you that are actually going to make it more enjoyable. The other thing is if you're still a little bit unsure, take a friend with you. Safety in numbers. You can always have somebody there as your safety if you feel uncomfortable. But I guess my point is I know how uncomfortable the first time you go to a tournament is, but I can assure you it is absolutely not uncomfortable the second time you go. I've been doing this for eight-plus years, and I find them addictive. That's why I do so many. That's why I travel. That's why I host a lot of them. I just find them fun, and it's not just the tournament. It's not the different pinball machines. Those are all part of it. It's the people.
    25:30
    I never would have met Marty. I never would have met other people. if it weren't for these tournaments. And, you know, I was thinking about my friend base. And, you know, we've done a lot of different things in our lives, and especially being older. There's your work friends. There's your school friends. There's your neighbors. Maybe if you have kids, your kids' parents' friends and things like that. And your pinball friends. And I seem to hang around the pinball friends a lot more. And we just find out little different things about each other and become travel buddies or bring people into the tournaments or leagues. It's a great community, and for the most part, everyone's pretty awesome. Yeah, like 99% of people are fantastic, and they want the best for you, and you'll have a great time. So just go. That's what I say. Like, if you're reluctant, just go. You'll actually be surprised at how enjoyable these things are. We had another email, and this is long, and you're pissed, so I'll read it. This is from our good friend, some call him Ed, Emil from Denmark, from Copenhagen. He's a top player too. Hello, friend of me's. I love the return of competitive talk. I can't be the only one that started listening because of it, can I? About the thing with the whole wizard modes and tournament play, I have to agree with Marty that some games are ruined by tournament play. The example of Adam's Family and Twilight Zone we gave last week, That's a good one. As games, they are interesting and fun with great cults, toys, animations, but in tournament, you really don't discover what they have to offer, and they get quite repetitive. That is so true. Yep. There are certainly better examples I can think of right now, but a game that generally becomes a one-shot game in competition can actually be really fun and enjoyable to play casually. A more recent example might be Ghostbusters after the new code update. It was made easier and more enjoyable for casual players, but destroyed tournament play by the multiplier and the gear buildup on the left ramp. As to Jeff's point, I think I would set up games more or less standard to get the full experience, exploring the games, digging deep into the code. When I go to locations and play at a tournament setting, I like to go wizard hunting and just enjoy the game. So it's not score base, and again, this is a top 100 player in the world. Isn't that why we got into pinball? Just to have fun? and he goes on and on and talks about Marty asked for a survey. And to answer Marty's survey question, I think that games that draw me back again and again need to have a bit of everything. Great code, score balancing, different routes through the game, excellent call, sound package, brilliant art, animations, challenging shots, smooth flow, basically everything you love about pinball. Yeah, for sure. He also says it can be the do the thing game that keeps pushing you back to come back for more. And that's, you know, that's fair enough as well. What is the point I'm trying to make? I'm not even sure anymore. But maybe that's the point. Pinball is a living, fluid thing. Pinball is magic. And we are the magicians. I'm sorry for my long blabbering. I'm not even done the episode yet. So there will probably be more to come.
    28:43
    I love that. You're haunting rollercoaster ghost. That's so funny. Very, very cool. Thanks, Ed. Okay. But, again, I like that as well in that he's acknowledging what I was saying. And remember that the summary of what I said last week was I was joking when I said that tournament pinball ruins pinball. It makes pinball less fun, but you've got the competitive element which makes up for that and makes it fun. It's just it's just how you play. That's all correct. It's not about fun or not fun because, yeah, I mean, a pinball player might say, I don't like this game. And they're speaking totally from a competitive standpoint. And it might be a scoring imbalance. I gave an example of the old Stern Stingray last time. It's a fun game to play, but if somebody gets a 55,000 scoop, that means I have to hit 11 5,000s to catch up. Things like that bother people. I watched Cincinnati and they had Big House, and it was really about if you got the skill shot or not. There's a lot of other ways to get points, but boy, if you got the skill shot, it was an uphill battle for everyone else. It looked like a fun game, though. but yeah, competitively maybe not so. Sorry, that just reminds me of, I remember I mean, it's like, we talked about Bram Stoker's Dracula, how unless you get the mega stack you're not worth getting up getting out of bed or hitting the start button, and the other one was and I didn't know this because I've played Whitewater so many times so many times, but if you don't get the five times multiplier give it up, because if one person gets that they're the winner and i in a way i don't begrudge that because as a viewer of pinball when people actually do get that they do get the five times multiplier and then get into multi-ball i'm fist pumping in the air i'm going fuck yeah that's fucking awesome well done but for everybody else that didn't get it it's a bit shit yeah for sure i don't know how to segue into this, other than just say this. We were talking tournaments, so I guess this is a segue. I was at District 82 last week. It's a great place in Wisconsin. I've got to go. Simon went, didn't he? Yeah, from Australia.
    30:58
    Emily Cosson was there. I think Dr. John's probably been there as well, but it's a lot of fun. Anyway, they did have a little survey themselves, and it kind of came about when some of the players were saying, wow, I can't see this game. I can't see Jurassic Park. I can't see Monster Bash. It was very dark and they kind of keep the lights out. And it was brought to the attention of the players that when the IFPA is running the North American Championships there and IFPA pin masters, they're renting out that facility. They will determine whether the lights are on or off. And they told everyone right now, they will be on. There is no glare issue people are just used to playing in the dark there and so eric you know did what he thought was right and he he said well we'll take a vote we'll do it by hands and they took a vote and it was 40 for lights on 32 for lights off and almost to a person all the pro players with the exception of one said lights on yes almost all the locals said lights off because we're used to that yeah yep lights on for me because you can see the ball even if you've got glare from overhead lights which there was none but you can still it like was it pinberg pinberg do you remember remember the old bank where they had the lights yeah it was kind of reversed replay used to be the other end and and the games were anyway they had some games where they were in the dark you you played Centaur, you won the multi-ball, you lost all sight of all balls. That happened, and they took feedback. They're like, okay, we've got to do something about lighting here. Now, they did. They had some glare issues on some, but at least you could move and kind of get that glare away from the flippers. Yes, and that's exactly my point I was going to make. Even when you've got overhead glare, you can still move your eyes and the angle to see the ball. When it's dark, there's nothing you can do. and I know that there is a, you know, there's somebody in the pinball competitive scene over here that loves games in the dark. I, no, no, don't. Just put the lights on. I would have been voted for yes. So a game like they had Tales from the Crypt with LEDs in there and that game does a lot of interesting animations. In the dark, it was like lasers shooting at you. They didn't have it, but if they had Chicago Gaming's Attack from Mars, you're still blind. They had Ghostbusters. Some of the games were in the dark. They hurt your eyes. I'm fine with that because you can wear sunglasses. What I'm not fine with is when it's dark and you can't see the play field. You can't see Jurassic Park, Stern. And it was just like, where's the ball? You have no idea. And I heard some of the locals say, well, it kind of evens things out. It's harder on the pro players. So you're basically playing, like, flip a coin bingo? Is that what? Okay. Let me tell you something. It was weak. Let me tell you something, Mr. Douchebag McTospot. It is not harder on the pro players at all. It's harder for everybody. They are still going to fucking whip your ass. I know. When the lights are on or off. But they thought it was an equalizer, you know? No, it's not. I'm not telling you what I heard. You know, remember, not that I want to bring up the trash talker invitation, that I beat you at. But they literally covered the entire pinball with money so I couldn't even see the play field and I still whipped everybody's ass. It's not about that. Everybody's equal. Oh, jeez, that shits me. You've fucking got me worked up now. I'm going to have to have another drink.
    34:48
    Oh, head to head is going to be golden. Going to be golden. I don't know. I think there's a lot of expectations because we only do it once a year. I think there's expectations that it's going to be entertaining, and I don't want to be entertaining. I just want to start recording and just see what happens.
    35:07
    We've got some interesting things to talk about. Okay. If I mention anything, just say cut it out and we'll take it out. I don't want to cross paths. No, I don't care. We have no script. We have no agenda. We have nothing for head-to-head like we did for years. I only have a few more things on my agenda. Go for it. As the calendar is changing, I'm wondering, 2023, look into your crystal ball or crystal glass of gin, whatever the fuck you've got there. Yep, yep. Will there be more or less pinball releases in 2023? Think carefully. Okay, let's... I can recap for you if you want. Okay, go for it. Yeah, please. That would help me. These are games that were either announced or released in 2022.
    36:02
    Okay? Some are different years, but these, you know, I guess some are still pending because we've got new ones. But no question, Rush from Stern came out. Weird Al from Multimorphic came out. There's two. Toy Story 4 from Jersey Jack, three. Queen Pinball. I've seen the machines. I'm going to put Queen in there. I guess. I don't know. You've played it. This is Spinal Tap. Is that available to buy right now from Home Pin? I don't know. Well, I don't know. I mean, it's at the Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas. Okay. So, yes, it's a 2022 game. There's five. The first Haggis Fathom game was delivered in 2022. So I guess you count that. There's six. Yeah, I count that as a 2022 game. Okay. Bond, definitely. Yep. People have them now. That's seven. And the question is, is Scooby-Doo the eighth? I don't think we're going to see any of those games out this year, so we'll leave that one off. So that's seven titles. So as we look to 2023, think, Marty. Spooky going to have a different one in 2023? Probably not. No, I don't think Spooky will. I think, well, there was one manufacturer that didn't release really a game in 2022, which was American Pinball. They are absolutely going to be releasing their tank game, whatever it is, soon. It's going to have to be announced shortly. Sure. Probably TPF, I would say, maybe. Yeah. I know the goal was Expo, so yeah, I'm sure that's close by. Jersey Jack was a long way between Guns N' Roses and Toy Story 4, but they have three designers there now. but it's not about designers they could have 15 000 designers but they've also got to have the ability to manufacture all the all those games so i expect that we're going to get an announcement from jersey jack probably i don't know maybe third or fourth quarter see i know there was a big gap between guns and toy story i strongly believe in the first half we'll see another jersey jack game believe it or not. That's my opinion. So we said spooky, no, American, yes, Jersey Jack. CERN just announced they're only going to do two. Two cornerstones. John, will they do a vault? Will they do a, what do they call them? Studio game?
    38:35
    Will they do a home game? No, they will not do a home game, it sounds like. Can I just say this? Just as a bit of a side and also the gins talking, I don't think Jurassic Park The Pin Jack Danger's game I just don't think it gets enough credit I loved it I said it to Jack and I wasn't trying to blow smoke up his ass I love playing that game, it's a fun game I like the Star Wars one too No I know but those games don't get considered real games and I think that's a shame because I've seen I've not played Jurassic Park it looks like a proper game and I think Jack Danger's done a fantastic job but it's his first commercial game. You don't think they're going to do another one of those? No, I don't think so. They've already said they're shutting down that section as far as manufacturing any more of them which is sad. Well just put an LCD screen in it do some animations and you know you've got your Jurassic Park 60th anniversary edition. Yeah the screen, buck up. Make that screen a little bit bigger. Come on. I mean, like I said, Mark Silk, he changed the speaker in his, and it sounds great. So we'll see two from Stern, maybe an American, maybe a Jersey Jack. That's four. Multimorphic, I'd have to say no, because they're building all those weird owls. But who knows? I don't know any different. They could surprise us. I don't want to ask you, because I know you're not the spoken person. You can ask, and I can answer. Will we see another title from Haggis in 2023? I said you can ask. Oh, okay. And I said I'd answer.
    40:20
    It's probably the goal, I would assume. Yeah, for sure. That's the goal. Yeah, my voice is going really high, which means it's definite.
    40:29
    It would be amazing, wouldn't it? It'd be great. It's not from you guys working your butt off. I mean, you guys are going crazy. I know how much you've been working. What would you want? What would you want us to do next? Me, personally? Do you really want me to guess? I don't know. No. Don't. No, no. No, I don't. No. You know what? No, I don't want you to guess. I won't guess, but I'll say I can think of three or four. So therefore, since there are that many, you're probably going to nail it out of the park and get one of those four, if not all four. Well, you tell me the four. And I also want to, this is again, this is me doing some more market research. Anybody that's out there that wants to write in and say, what would you love? what do you want to see from Bally around that era you know, where all he is alright, full disclosure, I do not know what the next four games are no, you actually don't you know I don't this is what I would like the four to be and I have to pull up, these are going to be Bally games correct, that was the license sure, yep if we're not talking about an original one Bally pinball machines here are the ones I would like to see. Oh, fuck, I just played Vector. That's a fun game. I just played Vector at District 82. I really enjoy that. But if I... By the way, Fathom would have been number one, so good on you for that. If licensing isn't a problem, and I'm looking in the window of 19... I'll say 1980 to 1983.
    42:02
    That's the window I'm looking in. I could be right, I could be wrong, but that's where I'm looking. This is selfish and this is just me, I'm a huge Centaur fan. Sure. That would be my number one. My number two, I don't know if Haggis has said why bodies are in or out. You're correct. We haven't said. Okay.
    42:24
    I do like hot-dogging, but I don't think that would happen. But that's not one of them. I'm just looking at the list here.
    42:33
    8-Ball Deluxe I love. There are a lot of them out there, so because you would be adding a second code. I'm curious what that would be. So that catches my attention. The same could be said about Frontier. What could be different about Frontier? That'd be interesting. Well, I tell you, the first thing I would do with Frontier is fucking turn those fucking, fucking, fucking bugs off. No if the crickets are out forget it The crickets stay No the crickets will always be there for the original code I wouldn I would no no I would find something far more annoying than those. Okay, okay. Xenon. Now, Xenon, we talk about doing only a few things in Xenon. I'd love to see what you could do with Xenon with a different code. Because I do like the layout, it's unique. But what could you do with that? So those are some of the games that I can think of. I also am obsessed with the game Flash Gordon, but that's a licensed game, so I don't know how that would work. But it is one of my all-time favorites. But look, we are just speculating because the world really is our oyster. So you know what? If you want Flash Gordon, maybe you'll get Flash Gordon. I don't know. I mean, I do know, but I don't know. But I also do know. Let me just look. Hold on a second. I'm going to text Ryan C right now. In four hours, he'll be more drunk. Ask him Haggis Valley questions. Oh, fuck, Silver Ball Mania. I was playing that this weekend, and a buddy of mine was like, this game sucks. I'm like, are you nuts? Silver Ball Mania is an incredible game. I fucking love that game. Yeah, absolutely.
    44:11
    So this is what you got. Okay. Oh, my God. I don't know what I can say. I wish I had Damien on the phone right now so I could say, hey, just listen in and stop me. I'm speed editing this, so do you want to hear it before I release it? No, it's fine. Okay. Fuck, I like Mystic too. No, see these, okay. I like Viking. Look at all these games. Right. Okay. So let me just go from, let's go from 1979 to 82, 83, all right? These are belly games. So this is, I'm saying this for two reasons. one is for people to go ooh but also to completely throw people off the scent right this is just for facts so let's go 1979 and i'm going to call out some of my favorite belly games from this era okay and and you won't be able to narrow it down because i like a lot of these games so let's go You ready? Yep.
    45:11
    Future Spa. Fucking great game. Terrible, terrible right spinner. It's the worst right. It's the worst spinner in all of pinball.
    45:21
    Big Buck Hunter might be second. Doesn't matter. It's still a fun game. You've then got Harlem Globetrotters. All-time great. Oh, sorry. Dolly Parton as well. Terrible. What? Dolly's a good game. Oh, it's fucking hard. Doesn't make it bad. Yeah, sure. Kiss. Kiss is overrated. I think we can all draw our conclusions on whether we would do that. Yeah, you're paying for the name. I think that's, yeah. Yep. Paragon.
    45:50
    Spectacular game, as is. Is it? Oh, fuck off. I love Paragon. Is it? What don't you like? You get scissor flipped. Were you scissor flipped, Marty? Did you lose your ball? Do you know what I don't like about it? The Beast? I don't like that tournament players have ruined pinball. How have we ruined Paragon? Oh, tap pass and then fucking drop target. Boring. Not always. No, I know. No, no, I know. You know, I'm obviously just being facetious. In fact, at District 82, Escher and I were talking, and ball one, I didn't do that once. Ball one, ripped the shit out of the spinner on the upper flipper of the right flipper because it was really juicy. I'm like, I can get to 20 pretty quickly there and then start, you know, get that 20 bonus to carry over each ball. That's what we did. So a little different strategy. It all depends on how the game is playing. Yeah. Okay. But what you've also got to consider when you think about these games is, A, do you love the game? Okay. Well, if you love the game, you'll get a replica of the game. That's fine. But you've also got to look at it and say, what could they do with this? What could they do with the layout? What could they do with the inserts? How could they do a new rule set on it? That's what you've got to think about. Okay, moving forward, whilst I've just planted that little seed there. So you've also got Star Trek. Now, it's actually not a good layout, if I'm honest. No, no. Hold on a second. My inner voice is about to blow up and say, don't do it.
    47:21
    Fuck Star Trek. No. Although, I don't know what Kevin O'Connor, I don't know how he draws art, but if you ever look at his kiss art or his Star Trek art, the man is obsessed with muscles. Kirk has never been so ripped. They are ripped, aren't they? Like Gene Simmons has never looked like that. It's so funny to see the Star Trek and kiss super muscles. Anyway. Yep. Next one on my list is Super Sonic. Good game. I like that. Oh, my God. Don't say it's bad. It's a great game. No. I fucking love this game. Oh, good, good, good. Absolutely. love it so much there is so much to love i just think it's it's a layout that brings joy yeah i'm trying to think of that kind of waterfall on the left side i'm not really sure what that does and the importance of that but the drops are in good spot a good saucer great spinner unlike future spa an important spinner you've got five inlines up top so so some skillful nudging for sure and some smart plunges uh lots of good things on that good game yeah yeah i it's just one of my absolute favorite games sure there you go here's a game i can't remember whether you said you loved or not i mean it was a while ago but this is one of my favorite valley games you ready voltan escapes cosmic doom i don't know it i don't know that you played it i thought you played it in a tournament if i did i don't recall it i i don't remember that game at all no i don't think there were many made no like 300 or so i don't think i played it it's really rare it's one of these okay i'm just gonna tell you this listener and jeff if one in the same pretty much if you looked at this this game you'd go huh there's really not much to it soon as you plunge and you start flipping, that's what it's about. There's something about this game that is just magical. Oh, I have played this. Yes. We talked about it a couple of months ago. Florida at the Pinball Asylum. Yes. Two spinners. I did play this game. Yeah, I know. You talked about it on this podcast. Well, I don't remember what we talked about last week. No, I don't remember what we talked about 15 minutes ago, let alone five minutes ago. Oh, you told us all the Haggis games. That was five minutes.
    49:50
    Frontier. Spectacular game. Great tournament game and fun to play. Again, the sweet spot for me is I don't want to play over and over and over and over and over again, but I want to have a good game. One thing I really like about games is if it requires me to shoot more than one shot. Now, there aren't a lot of shots on Frontier. You're on the right flipper, you're hitting the inline drops. You're on the left. You're hitting the spinner or maybe the drops below the spinner. So there's a couple shots there, and there's some important nudging up top. It's still not bad. I like it. Yeah. And then hot-dogging. Love hot-dogging. Do you ever play that? Yes, I have, but, you know, not since it came out. Oh, maybe I played it when I was in America. Did Papa have one at all? Don't know about that, but yeah, I've been... Oh, you know what? No, no, no. I've played this virtually a lot. Okay. Yeah. And a lot of games that I... You know, when I was trying to Pokemon catch them all, a lot of games that I haven't played, I still have played virtually. Okay. Oh, my God. This segment is going quite long. We said we were going to do a show under an hour. Yeah. What are we at now? Three.
    51:12
    Okay. and you mentioned it before mystic spectacular oh my god isn't it no it's good because you've got spinners on both sides you've got an important captive ball and you've got strategic drop target hitting it's fucking perfect game and by the way it's perfect and it frustrates the hell out of you all in one but when you get it oh you feel like a million bucks yeah but for those people that are looking up mystic right now just have a look at it and ask yourself what else could you do let's move on nitro ground shaker um great game one thing i do not like about it and i think we did mention this was the you know you're shooting the spinner to get back up and hit the saucer and hopefully collect bonus on the left to collect bonus on the right but really getting the double bonus and you're at the mercy of the randomness of when you get back up there and i saw whether it's asher or some great player hit it eight times in a row and never get the double bonus whereas the next player went up they got it the first time those kind of things again the tournament player me not a fan of but i love the layout um here's spoiler alert everyone i really don't like it hmm it's okay okay next one next one on the list rolling stones move on next no no next no just stop stop right now thank you very much just so you know here's the interesting thing i mean i would never do it because obviously you know probably licensing is going to be a problem Here's what I'm going to say to you. This is what I think people need to understand. I look at this, and I look at this layout, and I look at this play field, and I look at all the inserts, and I go, there's some interesting shit I could do here. Is it more eyeliner? Is it more what? Eyeliner? I don't know if the Stones have ever worn makeup like that before. They've got more makeup on their face than Kiss.
    53:19
    What I'm saying, I guess what I'm saying is, You can look at the game right now and go, fuck it, shit. I do. But there's stuff you could do with it. I wouldn't. But there's stuff you could do with it. Okay, if you're ever playing Rolling Stones in a tournament, I'm going to tell you how to play the game. Do you know how to play it, Marty? No, I've hardly played it. Here's how you play the game. If you're playing it in a tournament, there's a drop target, top left. Hit it. Then go behind it. Hit the saucer behind it. Rinse, repeat, do over again. You win. Yeah. Yeah, that's a shame, isn't it? It is a shame. Yep. Okay, let's move on. Silver Ball Mania. Spectacular. What are you talking about? Yay!
    54:01
    Hmm. I want you, before you shit on Silver Ball Mania, go take a look at your Celts game and then tell me. No. Oh, no. He got me. He lifted that from Space Invaders, so stop it. No, no, no, no, no. Don't fucking take any credit from Space Invaders. That's a turd. No good. No, it's not. Space Invaders sucks. Shut up, we're about to get to that. Anyway, the reason why I was going, I really, really enjoy Silver Ball Mania. What I don't like is Dead Bumpers. Yeah. Which Space Invaders has as well. No, I actually really like Silver Ball Mania. But it's one of those things where it's a wide body. I love the art. Like, for me, Silver Ball Mania is pinball art from that era. I mean, what the hell is the theme? The theme is a fucking pinball. Spoiler alert, everybody. Those balls are actually ball bearings. They're just fucking giant ball bearings. That's all they are. And you've got a game that's based around giant ball bearings. So apparently there's a mania about that. It's a good game. I don't know. Do you know what? I think it is. My problem I've got with this game is anything above the spinners and the horseshoe is just a luck box. There's nothing really. I think it's a wasted area. There you go. Yeah, I can see that. Okay, good point. We're now into... Actually, my eyesight's gone a bit blurry, so I'm not sure what I'm looking at. But I think... No, we're about to go into 81. So we're still at the tail end of 80, and that is Skateball. Spectacular game. Why do you think it's spectacular? Papa 20. Sure. That's when you watched Escher become the world champion against Bowen Cairns on that game. And it was the first time I really paid attention to skateboard. I'm like, there's a lot there. There's a lot you can do. Okay, so tell me, how many times would you go for the center drop targets? Never. All right. Fail. There's points there. I get it. It's just a dangerous shot. Fail. It's a dangerous shot because when you hit center, anything in the center, you're putting the ball in peril. You know who also doesn't go for the center drop targets? Somebody by the name of Keith Elwin. Yeah, everybody. You don't. No, this is what I'm saying. Fail is, it's a fail of the game. You know? If you're going to have shots right there in the center, yeah, make them lucrative. Don't put a sucker shot there that's worth fuck all, that does nothing to the game. You know? I thought it's worth a lot the third time you did it. Possibly, but it's not worth it. No, no, no. No, but I'm saying in flailing away or bailing out on shots or just some side-to-side action, you're going to hit some drops. Even if you're using the upper right flipper, you might hit some of those drop targets by accident on a bad shot or a ricochet. You're right. I mean, I focus on the five on the left. That's bull skate. I focus on the three in the top left. I focus on the spinner on the upper right. And the scoop, scoop, scoop, scoop, scoop. Scoop. Yeah, there it is. Scoopy-doo. um i really like skateboard i like the art i like the layout i you know it's a it's a good game whether it's appealing or not i don't know next one is space invaders next shut your fucking mouth makes it hard to podcast when i shut up but go ahead all right i'll shut up i just hold that thought for a second you don't know whether that's you taking a drink or me throwing up when you said space invaders is good that's the interesting thing about that sound effect i never said it was good you told me to shut the fuck up when i said next that is fact i don't think it's as bad as people say the reason why it's bad is that the rules are shit the rules are nothing they are dumb they're stupid they just make no sense they don't fill you with any joy the layout's actually not so bad it's actually not terrible it's actually okay to flip if you had a decent rule set in that game maybe just saying do i have to uh do i have to go back months from now or years from now when i guess announce space invaders and i have to if i can eat my words like oh it's great yeah of course it's exactly right no but what i am saying is i think the reason why people dislike space invaders shit rules is shittest rules ever so why am i buying it why why would i want to buy a remake where i'm because you get new rules there are two models you don't own the one well just make sure you get in on the one that's got the rules fucking obviously again the wide body thing turns off, it has to be special to be a wide body. I think Future Spa, seriously, does it need to be a wide body? Do you need fucking four lanes left of the sling? Seriously.
    59:13
    Do you need a spinner on the far right that you can't rip because it hits the wood and doesn't get back up top?
    59:20
    Imagine how good Future Spa would be if it was a standard body game. It'd be amazing because it's got good rules. It's got good shots for the most part. No, you're missing the whole point of Future Spa. It's there to be ridiculous. Well, they achieved that. Slam dunk. Yeah, they got it. Yeah, yeah.
    59:42
    No, honestly. Yeah, anyway. Viking. Love Viking. Oh, my God. For the same reason I love Flash Gordon.
    59:52
    I like Flash a little more, but Viking, there's lots to do there. So, first of all, I like the outlanes. Love that kind of uniqueness where, oh, I got a chance to save it. That's pretty cool. Inline drops are great. The spinner in the middle. What a brilliant rule. God, I wish they had more things like that. Rip it. Oh, it's worth 10. Oh, it's worth 100. Oh, it's worth 1,000. Oh, and it's timed. Go back for it. Oh, fuck, I love that game. Oh, collect bonus AB. That game is so good. Viking is a home run. Is it? Oh, fuck. It's no Space Invaders, Marty. is it viking is so so good the only thing that's not good about viking is the sucker shot 50 000 i'll go for that no fuck it yeah yeah viking's great yeah okay move on to the next one okay xenon xenon's unique and um i kind of want to see you do xenon just to hear how those call-outs could expand. I mean, fuck, they're already pretty provocative as they are, but what would part two be? Like just, I mean, full orgasm or what?
    61:04
    Yeah, you literally hit the start button and it jizzes on your face. Donna Summers, I feel love playing in the background. Oh, don't even. Okay, let me just remember people, for everybody that's taking notes and going, oh, the rumors are this. There's no fucking rumors, right? We're just going through the game. We're going through everything. So, yeah, everything's, oh, fuck, he said this. Yeah, he said everything. You're right. I fucking said everything. Let me tell you something about Xenon. There are a few games that fill me with pure, unadulterated joy. Xenon is one of them. The sounds, the tube. The sounds, the tube, the infinity glass, the fucking just fucking. Yeah, but there's not a lot on there. but they use everything. Yeah, I mean, even those little stand-ups on the left before you get to the spinner, very important. I've seen some Xenons that they totally wreck it, and it's all dip switches and their settings are wrong where you play it and, I mean, you don't want chopping wood games, I guess, but some of the Xenons I've played where that goes from 5 to 10 to 15 every time you hit the tube, and then the next ball it starts back at 5. You're like, oh, no. Yeah. But that stops people just going for the tube. Yeah, I guess. Yep. The layout up top is interesting because of the four buttons and the saucer. And the saucer is everything. You've got to hit three times to light your capture ball. And then you've got to hit three more times to release it. So there's some unique things there. And it depends on the setting. It depends on the game. It depends on how well it's maintained. You can rip the spinner with your right flipper back up to the left, and it bounces back and forth all up there. You can never hit the saucer, especially if it's got a tight tilt and you can't give any kind of nudging. That's an important nudge game. So it's got to be set up just right. Yep. Okay. Next, we're now in 1981. Holy fuck. We've got to pick the speed up. Let's go. Okay. Yeah, you say that, and then Centaur is the first one to talk about. Spectacular game. I love it. Please do it. just fun fact if you can go back to one of our earliest earliest podcasts you'll hear me talk about Centaur and whether somebody would do a remake of it so I would say listener go back have a listen come back and talk to me okay I don't even remember that but go on I said I wish somebody would remake these old games ah okay cool and then what happened I guess I made the announcement Good point So what I'm going to say now is I wish I had a million dollars Sure And then hopefully tomorrow A million dollars Okay, next one on the list Elektra Don't know if I know that one I've got to click it Oh really? As soon as you see it You'll know it It's got three play fields Upper and a lower And a middle, obviously Yeah, I've played it a few times Oh, there's lots of shit there I'm always worried about upper play fields like that if you step I can't see on this screen are there flippers on the upper up top? yeah there's two of them there's two oh they in unique spots too look at that yeah so it hard to keep it up there you going to get a few flails but you not going to be able to keep it up there like some other games Okay interesting I think I played it less than five times in my life I've played it quite a bit. Kind of like the lower playfield. And I hate, hate lower playfields. I like that one though.
    64:44
    Shut your mouth. Why? For hating lower playfields? Yes! Give me three you like. Electra, Haunted House, Black Hole. I'll give you Electra because I like the layout of this. I'll give you Black Hole because of the importance of it. Fuck off, Haunted House. No, Haunted House is not fun. No, I'll give you Monsters. There's your three. Well, Monsters as well. But I was sort of thinking this era. Anyway. No, I... The problem with the Electra one is that you don't get down there often enough. Life story, buddy. Ha ha ha! Okay. Embryon. Uh... I owned an Embryon for six months. Because there wasn't a lot to do. Was the layout unique? Sure. Wide body. All I kept doing was going back up to the top right, hitting those drops over and over again. Didn't matter which flipper I was on. I wasn't going to hit that captive ball in the middle, which was pretty cool. There's a ton of captive balls on that game. But it was such a dangerous shot. And then there's neat things on the left. Dangerous shots. So what you're saying to me is great layout, shit rules. Okay. But the layout, unfortunately, even if it had different rules, those are tough shots to take because of where the balls go. Sure. But if you've got an easy shot worth $10,000 and a hard shot worth $1 million, would you go the hard shot? Well, I don't want to see that kind of scoring imbalance. I'd really have to see a lot. That's all.
    66:09
    Let's put it this way. Could Embryon be great? Of course it could. Could it have different rules? You really got to put on your thinking cap. And I'm not saying it's impossible. It needs a lot. Okay, next one. 8-Ball Deluxe. Perfect game as is could only get better with unique code. I'm a huge 8-Ball Deluxe fan. Yeah, same. Okay. Flash Gordon, spectacular.
    66:35
    Featherman was next. Fireball 2. Next. What? Yeah. I just played the shit out of it this weekend. I'm, yeah, I'm good. No, you're not. I'm good. No, you're not. I refuse to accept that you're good. I hate that spinning middle saucer thing. I can't stand that. Give me the game without it. What do you mean the spinning middle saucer thingy? It's a red. It spins all the time in the middle of Fireball 2 Classic. No. Yes, I just played it this weekend. No, you're thinking the wrong machine. I'll click it. That's Fireball Classic. Have a look at Fireball 2. Oh, oh, oh. I stand corrected. Oh, oh. I get it when I'm wrong. I'll drink to that.
    67:21
    Okay. Sorry, what was I thinking? Fireball Classic? You're thinking Fireball Classic. It's got that spinning disc. Oh, please forgive me. I know there's Fireball, and then, oh, so Fireball Classic is not Fireball 2. Okay. No, no, no, no. Oh. Fireball 2. I don't understand. Look it up. Yeah, I don't. Oh, it's got like a doodlebug thing in it. Yep. Oh, fuck, I'm always good on those. I love those. Have a look at the art on this. That's pretty cool. Holy shit, look at all the drop targets.
    67:48
    11? Oh, that's a unique... I don't know this game. Oh, Jeff. I don't. Fucking hell. No one has this. Oh, my God. Oh, I like it. I know someone that's got it. Who?
    68:03
    Anyway. I'll take that out. So, you can leave that in. What this has actually got, which is really interesting, in the middle of the play... In the middle of the flippers, there's like a center post. Oh, is that the Medusa post? It's where you can flick it up. Love it. Oh, Fireball 2 is a phenomenal game. Fucking right. This is, I never see these games. Oh, really? No. Oh, my God. Okay. Yeah, I like it. It's interesting in that it is, it's a beautiful game. It's so much fun to shoot. It's pretty tough, but the theme. Well, you love Satan, so I don't know where you're... Yeah, for sure. Okay. So next is Flash Gordon. We started this fucking podcast saying 45 minutes were good, right? 45?
    68:56
    120. I also said, fuck, are we doing another podcast? We've got nothing to talk about. Fuck. Okay. What was the next one? I missed it. After Fireball 2? Flash? Flash Gordon. Please, please, please. Love it. Okay. Medusa. I owned one for quite some time. Okay. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. But not if I can only pick four. Yeah, it's an interesting one. It's a bitch to fix because of the upper flippers. That's why I said that. Okay, but that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. It does matter. No, but that's not going to be an issue if you do a remake, right? Yes, it is. You just do it differently. I guess. Okay.
    69:35
    It's such a great game, though. Yeah, okay. There's nothing really else beyond that unless you then get to Mr. and Mrs. Pac-Man. No. Yeah, no. No. I mean, it's interesting. It's actually quite a good novelty game. No. You know. So then you've got Speakeasy, Spectrum. No, no. Vector. I do like Vector. I do like Vector 2. my only issue I've got with this I've only ever played brutal versions of it and I'm not sure whether they're brutal versions or it's just brutal anyway well if the right flipper isn't strong enough it's a you're fucked in that game well that's mainly it that the flipper both flippers haven't been strong enough so okay there we go you know cut and paste take what you want out of it but basically Martin told you the next few games from I guess you just have to filter out the ones that he also mentioned what i really wanted to to get out of that was for me was it three hours of podcasting congratulations you guys it was first of all it was filler you're just being a dick you know i'm editing this that's a bonus no it's more so that i just need more time to keep drinking i'm warming up for the real the main event later the real podcast that's what you want but also the real No, you know what? No. At the end of the day, we do this podcast for everybody else. But once in a while, once in a while, I would like to do this for me. This is my favorite era of pinball machines. And it's not just Bally. It's also Williams, and it's also Gottlieb of this era. It's all of them, except for Stern. I think they're shit. You've said that for years. Yep. I don't. I just don't. So any excuse for me to talk about these games at length, that's a Christmas present to myself. So thank you, everybody, and thank you, Jeff, for having to edit this fucking shit.
    71:49
    Oh. That was a good one. But also, it's just, what you've got to understand is that, not just me, but we fucking love these games. We love these games so much. So we're going to do right by them Here's something Joe Cherovino told me As we're talking about these Bally games You're not going to Google, are you? No Promise? Yeah, of course Just so you know, every time you say that I know it's not as fun if I Google So I don't Google Okay Who made 8-Ball Deluxe? Bally Who is the designer?
    72:26
    Oh Now that is interesting I you're googling aren't you no I'm not because I know um it's a long delay I don't know I honestly don't know I know I'm just trying to think because I know Fireball 2 was Christian George Christian so It might have been him or it might have been Jim Patler. I don't know. You tell me. Are you Googling? No. Was George Christian? Sure. Okay. I wasn't sure about that. Who's George Christian?
    73:11
    I don't know. Is he a Christian? That's your homework for this week. I'm not going to tell you. We'll figure it out. Okay. I've got to find something notable about George Christian. Some homework for you. Okay. There you go. Okay. Sure. and uh i mean it's not the way i want to end the show but i do want to fucking end the show you're just using the show as a primer to get hammered williams games from 1979 to 1983 hey listen i don't know if we'll talk again before in disc but this is important and i will ask you because you have done this for a long time you have good opinions you have good insight for the most part i don't know about today but we're going to be streaming obviously in disc on ie pinball and you can watch it january 11th to or january 12th to the 15th tons of action what do you like in tournament streaming what's important to you marty um i like give me some do's and don'ts okay okay i'm pausing because this is really a question without notice what do i like I like good commentators that focus on the game, not themselves. Great answer. Any more to that? I like really good lighting on games. Okay. I like a good resolution with a good frame rate. I like knowledgeable commentators that can explain the rules but not get too poindexter about it. Just try and tell me stuff that I might not know. Okay.
    74:56
    I like... Throwing up in your mouth. I like... Do you know what I do like? I like, and IE Pinball does it, I like the instant replay. I think that's a great feature. I like the ability to switch immediately to different games rather than have a mobile rig. Okay. Anything else? Is that enough or do you want more? No, I'm just curious. I mean, you've seen enough in-disc streams in the past. You talk about how you like IE Pinball. I do too. Gold standard is what it is. It pretty much is. and I like the teamwork between announcers. A big pet peeve of mine is when there's one person doing all the talking, the other two are standing by. I want it to be equal. I don't like when people interrupt. I mean, that's a broadcasting thing for me, right? I mean, just when you're in a two- or three-person morning show, you don't talk over someone. Can I give you an unpopular opinion? Yeah. Possibly. Can I just say, don't put a well-known person on stream just because they're well-known. If they know nothing about the game that you're playing and don't want to talk about what's actually happening, don't put them on. There you go. Is that it? Who are you talking about? Oh, I'm just talking about any rando that they put on that just sits there and just starts talking about pinball in general but doesn't really focus on what's actually happening there as they're playing. Just sometimes they go, oh, here's so-and-so, and they just sit there and they don't really know anything.
    76:43
    Yeah, but you said really known person. I'm like, who the fuck's a really known person that does that? But there could be somebody that's well-known in that pinball community, in that location. You know what I mean? Oh, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, yeah. Not a big fan of second-guessing what the players are doing.
    76:58
    There's a reason they're still playing and you're in the booth. that is actually true but you know me my my pet peeve and all of that is oh well they should have done this it's like no let them play the game they want to play let them play it let them have fun yeah you know yeah um but is there anything in anything in particular that's a pet peeve for you really well i just i just said that the you know sharing of the mic is important because all people whether it's two whether it's three they're they're equally important And I think it's good to divide the tasks. Maybe somebody's doing play-by-play. Maybe somebody's giving rules. Maybe somebody's focusing on chat or other things. Everyone is unique. I mean, there's no right way and wrong way to do it because there are so many different styles. Number one, you have to be entertaining. You can't just be bland. You've got to engage, get excited when it's time to get excited.
    77:51
    Yeah, it's – I don't know. I've got a whole list of things that – So this is not ones and zeros, right? I'm just saying this just because I'm going to name some people doesn't mean other people aren't great. But I'm just going to give you an example, a couple of examples of whom I think are the best commentators which therefore make the best streams. Now, I have to get this out of the way. You are obviously one of the best commentators. You are, and you're going to go, and be all humblebrag or the bullshit, right? But you are because you know. You know your audience, you know what they need, and you give them what you need. It's a penis.
    78:35
    The other one, obviously, is Stephen Bowden. He's my favorite. But the reason why Stephen Bowden is a good commentator is because there is energy. There is constant enthusiasm. But there's also play-by-play dissecting of what's happening and rules knowledge as well. So you as a viewer, you get in there. You understand what's going on in real time. I've said this before, and you're on the podcast, so this is going to be really awkward because you're here, and I'm going to say someone I think is my favorite, favorite commentator. and they're not somebody that's always on the commentary, but I'm going to tell you, Lewis Bevan's, I think, is the best pinball commentator. Yep, he's so good. I'm sorry. That doesn't mean that Steve's bad. Steve's also fantastic. There's something about Lewis, for me as a viewer, there's something that... You tell me what you think. He has one of my favorite laughs. So when he laughs, I start laughing. He knows games better than anyone I know. He was a lifesaver for me. I saw him at Expo, and I'm like, Lewis, come with me. Teach me Mandalorian. And he did in five minutes, to the point where I'm like, oh my God, I love this game, and I'm choosing to pick this game. Super, super smart. He also knows his crowd, knows the people he's with. Yes. He does it all. He's the most underrated. So he could be the best, but he's definitely the most underrated broadcaster out there. And all those years of doing Papa and stuff, I mean, there's a lot of greats in Pittsburgh that did Papa TV, but Lewis is by far spectacular. Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. I don't want anyone that I didn't mention to go, ah, I feel really bad because I'm good. No, you are actually really good as well. I just, I really wanted to sing out exactly what you were saying, a bit of an unsung hero, this guy that I've just seen him on a number of streams and I've just gone, hang on, there is something really unique about this person that makes me feel really engaged with what's going on. You do it. Stephen Bowden does it. Lewis Bevan does it as well. I just wanted to call it out. There's others that do it as well, but there you go. I've said it. Okay. Well, hopefully all the parties, and I'm sure it will be successful, and Emoto Harney does a lot behind the scenes. She's just so good at what she does with Marco. We're going to have a lot of fun. Genex Wong is going to be taking some incredible photos. it's a fun team with Jim and Bob and Jay and Carl, of course, have done it in disc. And Marty, we talked earlier in the program, it seemed like six hours ago, about 2023 predictions. Will you and or Ryan and being great or being satisfactory, will one or two of you make the trek to North America in 2023? Please say yes. I think it's very likely you will see me in the US. I don't know whether you know this. I'm actually not Ryan C. I know. Shocker. Spoiler of everybody. So I can't speak on his behalf. But I'm recording in three hours with him, the head-to-head. So maybe I'll ask him that question. Please do. Because we're going to talk about highlights of 2022. We're going to do the Christmas naughty and nice list for 2022. Oh, shit. And we will see what 2023 says. So you will have that answer. There's some cross-promotion. Go over to Head to Head and have a listen. It's going to be mediocre at best.
    82:30
    And after you've done those two podcasts, if you've got any shred of tolerance for any more podcasting, maybe. Just throw in your once in a while a pinball profile. All right, if you wouldn't mind. Ah, fuck it. Don't even bother. No, I do. this is it this is where we make our money final round baby maybe it's because it's christmas and i'm fucking i don't know some more oh pinball profile pinball profile is fucking fantastic liar and it and it no it is i obviously don't listen to it you know that No, it's true. It's so true. No, I've never hit the fact that I don't listen to it. That's not true. I listen to it when it's somebody that I know. Ooh. So you can imagine how rare that is. But even on occasion, I have just gone, look, I don't know this person, but I'm going to have a listen anyway. I do actually listen to it more than you think. but it's good because you make people that should be boring, you make them interesting. And I'm not saying that they're boring people in general. What I'm saying is you're making people that are maybe a little bit nervous behind the microphone or they're unsure of themselves. They're not broadcast. They're not media trained. You make these people come out of their shell and become interesting and that is an art form in itself. so edit that out because i don't want anyone to know that i'm giving you more compliments i'm gonna loop that and repeat it several times so go fuck yourself or have a merry christmas happy holidays happy new years i hope with everyone's safe hope to see everyone in 2023 where can people reach us they can reach around us at final round pinball at gmail.com We are Final Round Pinball Podcast on Instagram and at Final Round Pin on Twitter. Are we still on Twitter? We're still on it, but don't engage with us on there. You know, Elton John's now, like after you talked about Elton John last episode, he's now quit Twitter. I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about logging in. I've never been a fan of Twitter.
    84:53
    But I'm old. I use Twitter not to post. I use Twitter to read news clips or things about, you know, sporting events or people I like, but less and less are doing it. Well, they say people of our age, we're on Facebook. Facebook's for the oldies. We need to be on – should we do TikTok? Oh, come on. What could we do on TikTok? Whatever you've been doing for the last two hours is money, I'm telling you right now. That's better than any cat video, I promise you.
    85:24
    But even Winston's there going, what the fuck's wrong with that? Why am I not getting money out of this? Yeah, maybe. Anyway, thanks, everybody, for listening to us in 2022. We look forward to doing it again next year. And it has been lots of fun doing this podcast with you this year, Jeff. And I look forward to doing it again. All right, buddy. All the best. Thank you. And good luck with your editing of an hour and 44 minutes. Yeah, it's easy. I just have to keep in all the burps and the slurps. Fine. No worries. Good stuff. Take care. Okay. Bye, guys.