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Isolation with Friends- Jon Chad

This Flippin' Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 37m·analyzed·Mar 17, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

John Chad discusses comics, books, science, and pinball discovery on This Flippin' Podcast.

Summary

This Flippin' Podcast episode 99 features cartoonist and author John Chad in a casual conversation with host Taylor and his daughter Ella. The episode opens with Ella interviewing Chad about his work in comics and children's books (Science Comics series, Leo Geo, Bad Mask), his creative process, and his unexpected entry into pinball through a Star Wars Episode One machine at a cartooning school in Vermont. Chad shares insight into his creative philosophy and offers cartooning tips, while Ella discusses her own creative projects and aspirations to write a graphic novel combining Wings of Fire and Warrior Cats.

Key Claims

  • John Chad discovered pinball in 2009 at a pool hall across from the Center for Cartoon Studies in White River Junction, Vermont, where he played a Star Wars Episode One Pinball 2000 machine with friend Alec Longstreth.

    high confidence · John Chad, directly describing his pinball origin story on the podcast

  • Chad's first published book was Leo Geo, which he initially self-published using a photocopier and sold in liquor bags purchased from someone named Bubba at a liquor store in Georgia before being picked up by a publishing house.

    high confidence · John Chad, explaining his publishing journey on the podcast

  • Chad created the original artwork for the Pinburgh poster, featuring a castle with pinball machines and wizards in a Where's Waldo-style design.

    high confidence · Taylor, host, confirming the Pinburgh poster is by John Chad and displayed in his home

  • Bad Mask is an experimental multi-media storytelling project that includes comics, newspapers, magazines, game cards, and other formats exploring storytelling potential beyond traditional comics.

    high confidence · John Chad, describing Bad Mask as a love letter to 1990s anime and action shows

  • Chad works for First Second Books (under Macmillan publishing umbrella) on the Science Comics series, which includes books on volcanoes and the solar system.

    high confidence · John Chad and Taylor discussing the Science Comics series and publisher

Notable Quotes

  • “I still feel like the kid looking at the gears of the carnival ride. For me, pinball is like a transformative experience. You're entering a new space, like a new reality.”

    John Chad @ ~47:00 — Chad draws a parallel between his childhood fascination with mechanical systems and his discovery of pinball, explaining how pinball functions as a transformative, multi-sensory experience similar to comics and science education.

  • “I think comics are really good at expressing very big ideas in a very simple way because you have the benefit of both words and pictures to do it.”

    John Chad @ ~1:06:00 — Core statement on Chad's creative philosophy about the unique power of comics as a medium for communicating complex ideas.

  • “I got interested in pinball kind of by chance. In 2009, my friend Alec Longstreth and I discovered a pinball machine, Star Wars Episode One. It was a Pinball 2000 machine in a pool hall across the hall from the cartooning school.”

    John Chad @ ~43:00 — Direct account of Chad's entry point into pinball, emphasizing the accidental nature of the discovery and its connection to his social/professional community.

  • “I wasn't trying to draw a perfect Eiffel Tower. I just need to communicate the idea of the Eiffel Tower.”

    John Chad @ ~1:02:00 — Chad teaches a practical cartooning technique emphasizing the importance of communicating essential visual ideas rather than achieving photorealistic detail, a fundamental principle in comics education.

  • “The first comic I ever did was a Garfield comic, except I didn't know how to spell, so it was a Gerfeld comic.”

    John Chad @ ~38:00 — Humorous origin story of Chad's early creative work, showing his lifelong passion for comics started in childhood.

Entities

John ChadpersonTaylorpersonEllapersonAlec LongstrethpersonThis Flippin' PodcastorganizationCenter for Cartoon StudiesorganizationFirst Second BookscompanyStar Wars Episode Onegame

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: John Chad's entry into pinball community in 2009 through Star Wars Episode One at a cartooning school venue; community members subsequently recommended documentaries, movies, and zines to introduce him further to pinball culture.

    high · Chad describes how 'people eventually from the pinball community kind of came to us and was like, Oh, if you like this, you would like this documentary. If you like this, you should watch this movie.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Chad articulates that pinball, comics, and science education all represent transformative, multi-sensory experiences that engage with understanding how systems work; connects childhood fascination with mechanical systems (carnival ride gears) to pinball mechanics and comic storytelling.

    high · Chad: 'I still feel like the kid looking at the gears of the carnival ride. For me, pinball is like a transformative experience. You're entering a new space, like a new reality.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Bad Mask project demonstrates innovation in combining multiple narrative mediums (comics, newspapers, magazines, game cards) to explore different storytelling potentials beyond traditional comic pages; Chad had to research design principles for unfamiliar formats.

    high · Chad: 'I wanted to use all these other mediums for their storytelling potential. But it was a really weird project to work on because, you know, up until then, all I'd ever done was draw comic pages. I've never designed a newspaper before.'

  • ?

    content_signal: This Flippin' Podcast episode 99 uses a unique format where the host's young daughter conducts an extended interview segment with the guest before adult conversation begins, creating a dual-audience appeal and fresh perspective on the guest's work.

    high · Taylor explicitly structures episode with Ella's three-question interview segment, then transitions to adult conversation after Ella leaves to watch a movie

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.293

0:00
The episode you are about to hear contains explicit words. Your opinions within are those of the host, and in no way do you imply that anyone listening to this podcast agrees with anything we say. Please send complaints to thisflippinpodcast at gmail.com.
0:56
Skydiving. Waves don't cry. Slimer wants to be part of the podcast. All the way, Dad. All the way. Hey, did that work? That did work. What's up, John? Hey, Taylor. Hello. Ella's here as well. Hi. It's nice to see you. I got some of your books. Oh, yeah? Yeah, she's super excited.
1:30
Oh, how cool. Oh, boy. I read both the Leo Geo's Bad Mask and then the Volcanoes, Fire, and Life Science comics. Oh, wow. I left the solar system book at home, though. I mean, at school.
1:50
Oh, no. Yeah. Are you guys working from home now? Yeah. two weeks two weeks wow my wife teaches at a middle school and uh they they're they're done for four weeks uh because it's three weeks and then spring break oh i i think that's pretty much where we are going to be yeah i mean yeah that's uh yeah it's we will we will get into that so do you read a lot of comics ella um yeah i'm into this one series that's um called wings of fire they have three graphic novels and they're like bigger books like they're pretty big books and what is the fire i haven't heard of that yeah they it's like it's a pretty big series it's a dragon book like it's about um like dragons stuff like that oh look at that and then you also read like dog man that was like first that was mainly like around first and second but a lot of the first a lot of a lot of your introduction to reading was really through graphic novels yeah that's yeah don't you think yeah i mean it's have you read it oh go ahead oh you go ahead john have you read the uh reina telgemeier books uh like smile or sisters i have um i love those books she came out with um a new book which is like guts i haven't read it yet i haven't read it yet either i've heard that it's about belly troubles but also about like anxiety um uh which i have anxiety so i'd love to read that um i remember when i read smile that meant a lot to me because like i've had messed up stuff happen with my mouth oh yeah i just got braces and a palette expander so oh the the one um when i had my palette expander you had to put a key in it like a like a metal key you had to turn it like a crank thing kind of oh yeah i would i was i was the cranker in the house yeah so like we would do i think we did it Would we do it at night? I feel like my voice is really quiet. Your voice is okay. You can get closer to the microphone.
Pinburgh
event
Science Comicsproduct
Leo Geoproduct
Bad Maskproduct
Wings of Fireproduct
Warrior Catsproduct
The Howlersproduct
Adventures in Cartooningproduct
James Sturmperson
Ivan Brunettiperson
Bravest Warriorsproduct
Catbugproduct
J.P. Coovertperson
  • ?

    personnel_signal: Chad maintains connections within artistic and creative communities including cartoonists (James Sturm), comic creators, and the pinball enthusiast community; has contributed original art for pinball events (Pinburgh poster).

    high · Chad created original Pinburgh poster and has Bravest Warriors/Catbug artwork; worked at Center for Cartoon Studies; publishes with First Second Books

  • ?

    design_innovation: Chad teaches the timed-drawing exercise technique from cartoonist Ivan Brunetti (draw in 1 minute, 30 seconds, 15 seconds) as a method for identifying and communicating essential visual elements rather than achieving photorealistic perfection.

    high · Chad: 'This is an exercise from the cartoonist Ivan Brunetti... you're going to figure out what is important to draw about that thing that helps communicate the idea.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Chad's Leo Geo followed a self-publishing path using photocopiers and informal distribution (liquor store bags) before being discovered and commercially published; demonstrates grassroots creative success leading to publisher interest.

    high · Chad: 'I was just making books because I liked the book, but it eventually got around and it got to a publishing house and they wanted to like clean it up and make it into a published book.'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Star Wars Episode One Pinball 2000 machine (circa 2000-2001 release) served as Chad's entry point to pinball in 2009; indicates appeal of accessible, well-designed games from earlier era to new enthusiasts even years after release.

    medium · Chad discovered 'Star Wars Episode One. It was a Pinball 2000 machine in a pool hall' in 2009, suggesting the machine was several years old at time of discovery

    • 4:12
    Okay. There you go. But yeah, I was the cranker in the house because my wife – I don't think your mom really loved doing it. Well, you were the first one that did it. And because you were there at the orthodontist, so you were the one who knew how to do it. And everyone else was like, I don't know. I think I was the only one that was comfortable with it. Yeah, you were the one going to the appointment, so you were the one that was doing all the stuff. Yeah, you got the training. I got the training, the official palate expander expansion training. That was crazy, the palate expander.
    4:49
    Now it's just in my mouth. Oh, it's still in there? Yeah, because if it were just to take it out, my mouth would just go back in. Oh. It was cranked, so then if you take it out, my mouth will just kind of come back where it was. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of resting in there. Probably get a retainer soon-ish. I don't know.
    5:18
    Yeah, now I have braces. Do your braces have the rubber bands that go from the top to the bottom? No, I only have my front four teeth. Oh, oh, wow. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, so because of the palate expander, they're just doing the – they'll do the top teeth because it's just – just the top has been expanded. Top four. So they'll do the top teeth and they'll get the top teeth kind of straight and then eventually phase two, she'll do full braces if she needs them. Top four.
    5:47
    Yeah, my jaw grew in like a weird way. Like it grew to the side. Yeah. And it – I just like had a weird smile. It wasn't a big deal until I got like to be like 14 and I had trouble eating food because my teeth weren't matching up. Yeah. So they actually like after a long time, they finally cut up my jaw. I'm trying to find where it is.
    6:09
    I have like a spare – I have a spare piece that – or like an example of like what's in my jaw. Of what you have in your jaw now, like permanently? Yeah, I have a couple of like metal plates. Oh, wow. I had a friend in college who had – he had – his jaw just kept growing. and eventually it like, Oh, look at that. So that's what he has in his jaw. I've got, uh, three more of these in my jaw. Uh, one right here, and then one right here. And what is that doing? That's just keeping it in place. Yeah. Because they had to, to get my teeth to match up, they had to like cut here on my jaw and like rotate it. Um, wow. My dad said he was born with straight teeth. I was born with straight teeth. so he's like lucky lucky yeah so my mom's the only one like with experience yeah but she's not cranking your teeth what's up with that why isn't she doing all the work it's so weird I don't know that doesn't make any sense I got thrown into that well honestly mom probably doesn't well she can't really go to the appointments so she doesn't get like the bonus training do you want to tell people that you want to welcome everybody to the this flipping podcast episode 99 I think it's 99 yes yes let me make sure really quick.
    7:24
    Let me do some research. I'm not prepared. Tiny supercomputer is pulled out. You should show them the gotcha thing. This is episode 99. Wow. So why don't you welcome everybody to episode 99 of this podcast. Ready? Go. And you can say with our special guest, John Chad.
    7:48
    And me. And Ella. But do it in the microphone. I'm going to be excluding Tom, whatever your other guys' names. Tommy. Okay. Okay, ready? Go. I'm actually not going to say that. Right here. Oh, that's close.
    8:04
    Go. Just talk. Say, you're listening. I'll say, you're listening. Just say something. welcome back listeners to this flipping podcast and this is episode 99 with our special guest me and john chad the author of books and a very good pinball player there you go so john thanks for joining us um so ella ella's on ella's is joining me for like the first couple minutes just because she's a big fan of john's work and wanted to ask him a couple questions she actually just did a project for school yeah and where you you lit up a shoe box and it was inspired by let me say so um all you did is you had a shoe box and then you got to decorate it um like a book scene and i chose a scene from one of john chad's books which is space comics our place in space solar system and i chose the scene where it was like all the um all the stuff was like lighting up and so i put the lights in the little tubes to show that it was like glowing and there was a lot of it. So that's kind of what I did.
    9:38
    Listeners, Taylor sent me a picture of this, and let me tell you, it was phenomenal. It was so good. I love that you had the speech bubble above the hamsters. Our listeners aren't going to know what we're talking about. I'll post a picture. You even made the speech bubble above the hamster's head, and it looked exactly like it did in the comic. It was so, so cool. And so was that like a book project or was it like a lighting assignment? It was a science project and we were doing electricity. So you had to have like three or more, well, at least three lights, but you could only have three to five because like more than five would just be too hard. so I had to do five four because there were six tubes I had to make it so there were only four because I can't do six lights so I did four and then I did one to just light up the rest of the project so did you wire those lights? yes I even made like a switch tell me what you made the switch out of Um, like, um, a note card, part of a note card, um, two brads and two paper clips. So you would turn the paper clip and that was like your off and on switch, right? Yeah. That's amazing. That's so cool. And it was powered by what? What kind of, what'd you use? A battery? Um, nine volt battery. Nine volt battery.
    11:17
    And what'd you get? What grade did you get on it? Oh yeah. Huh? I don't remember. You didn't get 100? I think. I don't remember. You probably got 100 for it. I mean, I saw the other projects. It should have gotten 100. It looked amazing. Some of them weren't very distinctive or something like that. Some of them weren't like they didn't have many elements, I'll say that. um one guy in my class um he was out for like a couple days so he missed like three days of trying to make the project so he was like but he chose kind of a simpler scene so um he was a he like did stuff with the box he had like it was um it was like um a submarine kind of one where it was like the submarines were in the water. I don't really remember. I can see it in my mind, but it's not very easy to explain. So we have John Chad joining us. So you wanted to ask him a couple questions, right? Yeah. Okay, so what do you want to ask him? You do three questions, and then you head up and you watch a movie with your mom and sister, okay? Okay. Okay, so what would you like to ask?
    12:44
    When you were talking to me about how, especially in the, a lot of his books are based on science, right? There's a series literally called Science Comics.
    13:00
    Yeah. So he did, so his book in Science Comics was just one book. The publisher who published that book has an entire series of books that are dealing with science. The Volcano book is one as well, isn't it? Yeah. Yes, it is. Yes. So – and actually – oh, she's showing it to me right now. It's – yeah, it's a science comic series, and it's by First Second. Is that correct? Yeah, First Second is the publisher. They're under the Macmillan umbrella of publishing. So what did you want to ask – what did you want to ask him about that, about that –
    13:35
    How did you get into, like, science? I've always been interested in science I often reference, there's this home video of me on a ride at a carnival and my parents are trying to get my attention and I just can't help myself I'm looking at the mechanics of the ride, I won't look at them and they're waving, they're trying to get me to look at them but I'm just looking at these spinning gears of this carnival ride and I think that describes a lot about who I am and what I find interesting And I think science is – what I find interesting about science is it's kind of like I'm looking at the gears of like the world. When I get to learn about volcanoes and the solar system, chemical elements or math, I'm looking at how the world around us works and I just find that super fascinating. I also think that like I love fiction. I love Star Wars. I love Lord of the Rings. I love great fictional stories, but sometimes science is so amazing that it's even better than fiction.
    14:41
    Like all that stuff in the science book about the solar system, all of it's true. Like there really is a moon of – I think it's – is it Saturn or Jupiter? Titan?
    14:51
    That's Jupiter, right? That's Jupiter. Yeah, I think it's Jupiter. And it's got all these blue lakes of like liquid methane, like liquid cow farts. Yeah, so like they get trapped – like some of them get like trapped in the shuttle and then they're going through different parts and they like find them on one of the moons I'm pretty sure. yeah the the one with the big cliffs and it's a it's a moon of uranus i think and yeah that's the one that's the one uranus is the one where the the pressure in the atmosphere is so much that the carbon is condensed down into diamonds and there's like a very real chance that it actually rains diamonds on uranus yeah yeah i remember in that like which is this like yeah when they're talking about that um the little illustrations you're like Like I think maybe two of the characters have like little diamonds in their eyes.
    15:48
    So what else – what was another question you wanted to ask him? I guess I'll kind of cover like three main things.
    15:59
    How did you get into like doing stuff for the books? How did I get started in books? That's a great question. When I was young, I loved to make comics and books. The first comic I ever did was a Garfield comic, except I didn't know how to spell, so it was a Gerfeld comic.
    16:22
    I remember my first grade teacher, we would always make books. We would never just write on pieces of paper. We were always illustrating and making them in these books. Even if we didn't fill up the book, we would still make it in the form of a book. But I think my passion with making books started in college when I discovered what zines were. Have you ever heard that word, Ella? Nope. a zine is like a self-published magazine.
    16:49
    You know, and sometimes it's smaller than like a normal magazine, but not always. You know, sometimes you'll have zines that are full-sized magazines. Sometimes they'll be very, very small. And I found that there's this huge amount of people that were making their own books and making their own publications, and that just like really excited me. I really loved the idea that I was holding something that another artist or writer or creative person had made, that sort of connection was like really exciting to me. And so I decided that I wanted to not just tell stories and make art, but I wanted to make books.
    17:25
    So from then on, in college, I really got into making zines and making comics and turning them into little books. Yeah. Another one of like one of my favorite books I've read is the first Leo Geo book. yeah the the tall skinny one yeah that one was good because um i like how you made it so like when he got to the center it was like well now i think you're gonna have to turn the book like this so that was always like he's he knows he's in a book which is kind of cool like he knows what's going on my uh my publisher wanted me to have that scene be like a little bit more like nail on, you know, hitting the nail on the head. But I told them, you know, I think that people are going to get it. I think that people are going to be okay with turning this book upside down and reading it up, even though that's not how we're trained to read. You know, we normally read left to right, top to bottom. Yeah. But they were okay with it. And I find that kids and adults don't blink an eye when they get to that. They get to the middle and they flip the book and they read up. But yeah, that was actually my first published book. Um, and it was actually a book I made from home for a number of years. I used to print them on a photocopier, staple them on the top. I put tape over the staples. Uh, it wasn't very professional. And then I put them into these, um, tall liquor bags that I bought off of this guy named Bubba who worked at the liquor store. Yeah. In Georgia. and I did that for like years and years and I was just making the book because I liked the book but it eventually got around and it got to a publishing house and they wanted to like clean it up and make it into a published book so I was just making books because I liked books not because I was like okay I want to be publishing these yeah so um before we get to the last question um i have like one thing that um i have i have like a stool of his books right here um there's this other thing that is um bad mask um yeah so it's like a box and it has like multiple things inside it's like it's it's like an entire yeah like it's like an entire comic experience right it's not just a book it's like it's it's it's literally a box of things like about stuff yeah it's like there's like um a folder there's like um battle book like there's a newspaper there's like newspaper um tiny book called mental it's like a comic book yeah um there looks like there's like um like kind of like a plan book uh almost like um letter there's even like cards in here almost like a game so it's pretty it's pretty packed so yeah i uh definitely i made bad mask I was just like experimenting with what are the storytelling potentials of things other than comics.
    21:03
    So as Ella said, Bad Mask is made up of all these different elements that some of them don't have comics in them. Some of them are just a newspaper or a magazine.
    21:15
    And, you know, I think that comics are wonderful. And I think that comics can tell certain stories and do things that other mediums can't. I think it can do things better than film. I think it can do things worse than film. I think that it can do things better than prose. I think it can do things worse than prose. And so I wanted to use all these other mediums for their storytelling potential.
    21:39
    But it was a really weird project to work on because, you know, up until then, all I'd ever done was draw comic pages. I've never designed a newspaper before. I've never designed a magazine. I've never designed playing cards so I had to like really do my research and go to libraries and check out a lot of magazines to see how things were made it looks phenomenal it looks incredible it's very sweet it was a lot of fun to work on and it's really a love letter the content is about just super villains and giant robots and magicians and stuff it's really just a love letter to anime and all of the like action shows that I watched in like the 90s. Yeah, like on the cover of like the box, there's like left side like a blue kind of setting with like a robot on the right. It's like red with like a guy and like all these things wearing like a red mask. So what was your last question? Going into the third question, it kind of goes into what my dad Taylor is going to talk about. How did you get interested in pinball?
    22:56
    Ooh, I got interested in pinball. Yeah, I'm sure. I got interested in pinball kind of by chance. I, in 2009, which feels like a long time ago, but in the grand scheme of things, you know, wasn't that long ago.
    23:16
    I, my friend Alec Longstreth and I discovered a pinball machine, Star Wars Episode One. It was a pinball 2000 machine in a pool hall across the hall from the cartooning school that we were both working at, the Center for Cartoon Studies in White River Junction, Vermont. And they had this one pinball machine. They had like a Cruisin' USA, like single player sit down arcade cabinet. And then they had this one pinball machine. And we were just really enraptured by it. And we just played the high heavens out of it. And the more we played it and the more we talked about it, people eventually from the pinball community kind of came to us and was like, oh, if you like this, you would like this documentary. If you like this, you should watch this movie. that game is maybe not the best game as your entry point for pinball. Maybe go to Fun Spot in New Hampshire and play these games. And so from that one game, it really connected us to people and movies and zines that were all about pinball, and it just really grew from there.
    24:20
    And I know they very very different but I still feel like the kid looking at the gears of the carnival ride For me pinball is like a transformative experience You're entering a new space, like a new reality. And I feel like the same thing is true with comics or with writing about science. And so I think if I had been exposed to pinball earlier, I would have latched onto it just as hard. I don't think it was like the fact that it was Star Wars Episode One. It wasn't that machine that got me hooked. Yeah, like talking about the gears, whenever Taylor slash my dad is like doing stuff on a pinball machine, I'll always like end up coming down and be like, ooh, what's this thing do? Or what are you doing? or can I touch this? Because I'm always like, it looks so interesting because the glass is off. I've always wanted to just play with each and every part, see how it's working and what's kind of going on behind this. So it's kind of interesting for me too.
    25:38
    Yeah, it's really elegant. It's really, I remember the first time I saw the underside of a pinball play field. I just, I was in awe. It looks so complicated. Yeah.
    25:51
    Can I flip the script and ask my interviewer a question? Sure. Do you like making books or comics, Ella? um well i'm so i've read um these this two book series that like i really like and i know people that really like them and they're not that common of a book series to read so it's really interesting to find someone who enjoys these type of books because it's actually like they're popular but also like some like mainly at my school not a lot of people read these books so um a book series called wings of fire and another called warrior cats oh i love warrior cats yes it's incredible yes yes um but so what are you so what are you working on now so um i'm working on a book that kind of combines wings of fire and warrior cats kind of together and um i'm calling it like the howlers it's about um wolf tribes that like are some are like kind of on like the more evil side come or like oh let's go play in the sunshine in a in a beautiful meadow um type of thing So in like there's going to be like this one like war and prophecy that certain wolves have to like restore and this giant war.
    27:37
    So it's kind of a combination of the two books kind of put together. That's so cool. Are you just going to write it or are you going to draw pictures too? I'll definitely draw pictures too. Honestly, I'll probably start off with a graphic novel because I think it's really easy to start off from a graphic novel to make a full book. so like you're drawing pictures you're getting more and more ideas and you're kind of writing like a miniature script so then when you're writing the like a bigger book which is like covers kind of more details you can kind of get like a base from the graphic novel getting like you have tiny ideas that can spread into like bigger things and then kind of like make the book like better more detailed so and you think and you think that's easier than doing it the other way i mean yeah because it i feel like it would be hard to take a bigger book and make it a small kind of short story picking up some of the main facts because i do tests where like read this patches passage and figure out the main idea and it's hard because like there's these different paragraphs some are talking about like totally like how to ride a bike first to get safe and then it's like um enjoying what places to go on like those are completely almost different topics so um it's hard to figure out the main idea between that without saying it's about riding a bike like it's like what is the main idea of this passage and then it gives you different things and like you're like these are all completely different when the passage is about different things as well kind of so it's always like what how like so it's kind of hard to pick out those main idea parts it's easier to get the main ideas and then do it more detailed because they're just adding details instead of pulling out parts. That sounds good to me. Yeah. I get it. I think comics are really good at expressing very big ideas in a very simple way because you have the benefit of both words and pictures to do it. Yeah, like you're able to describe them better when you're like, oh, I don't actually – like if you make the bigger book and then you're like, I don't actually know if I like that part. Like maybe I want to like do it a little different. So, but if you draw it out kind of first and then you can get like it straight and like, so, yeah.
    30:52
    Well, I really am excited to read that book, The Howlers. Yeah. Coming out soon. Probably not very soon, actually. You can send him, we'll send him a draft. Yeah. So she's working on – Honestly, maybe you can help me with some of the pictures because I'm very good at coloring. I'm not the best artist though. But you have to work on it. That takes work. Yeah. We all have to practice. I'm sure it's going to be phenomenal. Can I make a book recommendation? Sure. There's a book series called Adventures in Cartooning. It's also by First Second and it's like a really – it's a really good guidebook for how to make comics, like how to draw things simply, how to make panels and word balloons. It has some great tips. I would really recommend it if you're interested in making comics. Okay.
    31:42
    Adventures in cartooning. I'm looking up right now. It's by two former students of the Center for Cartoon Studies, the school I used to work at, and then the director of the school, James Stern. they all like made like a super brain trust and made the book there's a couple of them there's like a holiday one and I know it's no it's just pure white it should have like a dragon and a knight on the front yep there it is yeah there's also another book in the maker series about drawing comics by J.P. Coovert okay um which is also really good i'll also have to get like some drawing books to teach me how to draw like wolves and like other creatures probably like well you could ask raccoon so if you're if you're drawing something that you want to look realistic how do you what's your what would you suggest as far as like doing research i don't know if i want it to look realistic but i do the idea of a wolf right yeah yeah yeah well here here's my favorite tip this is an exercise from the cartoonist Ivan Bernetti. He has this great exercise where he has somebody draw something and draw it in a minute. Give yourself a set amount of time and draw the thing you're trying to draw and then try to draw it in 30 seconds and then try to draw it in 15 seconds. And through that process, you're going to figure out what is important to draw about that thing that helps communicate the idea. Because we're not, you know, and if I draw the Eiffel Tower, I'm not trying to draw a perfect Eiffel Tower. I just need to communicate the idea of the Eiffel Tower. Yeah. Like the Eiffel Tower, that's just a triangle. Yeah. It's just a letter A with a couple of like zigzaggy lines. Yeah. So like with a wolf or something, you know, think of what do you need to draw just to communicate the idea of a wolf? You know, what makes it separate from a dog? A bigger muzzle fur on the side of its head, a thicker tail, a more muscular body. Yeah.
    33:46
    So that's my, that's my favorite trick because I know people, you know, they get hung up on the stories that they want to tell, but they're afraid because they don't think that they can draw certain things like, Oh, I have this great story that takes place in a parking garage, but I could never draw a parking garage with all those cars. Well, it's like, well, you don't need to draw a perfect parking garage. You just need to get across the idea of a parking garage. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's it. So to all you artists out there, there's like a professional tip right there. This is the comics podcast. Yes, it is not this flipping podcast anymore. This is now called Comic Tips. Now, you know, we have that poster that's outside of your old room. So outside of Ella's old room, they just switch her and her older sister to switch rooms. There's the Pinberg poster. You know the one I'm talking about? It's like the castle. Oh, yeah. That was done by John Chad. It was? Yeah, that's the original drawing he did for the pinball poster. Oh, you have that one, yeah. Oh, yeah. I really like that poster. Like, it's really cool with, like, the castle, kind of all the little pinball machines and, like, kind of wizards. Yeah, it was very, like, Where's Waldo? Yeah. And then on top of our mantle, we have another John Chad piece. It's the bug. Like the, um. What's the name of the bug? Oh, Catbug. Oh, it's Catbug. You have the Bravest Warriors one. Oh, and it's like the purple one where like the three kind of goblins looking thing. Yeah. That's by John Tell. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and we have the book, right? We have the book that that's actually in.
    35:28
    For people out there who like Where's Waldo, like searches, definitely get Catbug. Like, there's a bunch of artists that make different things, and you have to find this little cat that's, like, mixed with the ladybug. Yeah. There's, like, some that, like, two, I think, that are, like, the hardest ones ever.
    35:54
    Like, it's really hard to find the, like, cat bug in them. But one of the pieces is by John Chad in that book. Yeah. And it's pinball. And it starts out with, like, a little comic. I think like, oh, no, cat bugs. Yeah, it starts out with like a little kind of comic thing. All right. Ella, thank you for joining us. You go upstairs and watch a movie with your mom and sister. Thank you for your questions, Ella. It was so nice to see you via digital technology. Yeah.
    36:23
    Goodbye, listeners. Oh, man. Girl, you can talk. You have so many great ideas. Thank you. All right. I love you. I'll talk to you. I'll see you later. I'll see you in a little bit. Later. I love that interviewing tactic with – well, before I get to question three. Yeah, I love that.
    36:46
    She was so excited when she found out that you were going to be joining me. So I was like, I will – I was like, do you want to talk to John? She's like, of course I want to talk to John. Oh, that was so cool. So nice. I'm going to adjust that. I got to adjust something real quick.
    37:04
    Sure. What's up, man? Oh, I was automatically about to say nothing much. I know. So I reached I reached out to John. I mean, we've known each other for years now. And I think one of the first times I met you was at the I was at Pinnberg when I bought some of your pieces. Yeah, that's the first time like we met. I think so. Oh, definitely in person. Yeah. We might have crossed paths on the Internet before that.
    37:35
    But I think that's the first time we met in person. Yeah, I collect a good bit of work, artwork. And I got turned on to your work pretty early on because of the Drop Target zine. And then I remember – and I don't remember where you posted, but you posted somewhere that you were coming to Pinnberg with a bunch of original drawings. and when I walked into replay effects and this was, this was the first replay effects that took the first replay effects. And I made a beeline to John's booth and I just started buying stuff. Like I was just like this one, this one, this one. Um, but yeah, I, I'm, I'm a huge fan obviously. And I, you know, I, I introduced my kids to it early because I think a lot of that work that Ella was so excited about, I was excited about, and I was like, this is just going to be something that it's, it's a really easy way to get them into like deeper thoughts, right? Like there's some deep ideas going on in, in some of your books and the way. Yeah. Well, the, the science comics are really, I just think such a phenomenal like contribution to kind of like early education. I know that if I was a child again and I had access to these, I would just be eating them up because I'm not a very strong reader and I'm not a very strong like prose writer. And kind of learning things via pictures and words, I would have just latched on to so fast. Well, so much of what the kids are reading now as well, like there's a book series, Dog Man, that Ella – that was one of the first books that she started reading. and you know as a parent you look at it and you're like oh it's their comic books and so there's kind i mean i was coming from a different perspective i'm like she's engaged in learning how to get interested in reading the fact that she wants to open a book you know maybe it's it's a little more digest you know she can digest it a little bit easier because there's some pictures in it but she's still reading the book like she's still not just getting all the concepts from the pictures and so I know that when I first introduced them I think the first book that I bought from you I think it was a Leo Geo maybe it was the the math one which I have here as well the Leo Geo and the cosmic oh the second one that data yeah that might have been the first one maybe I bought both at the same time but I think that they at the time like the concepts were a little too much for them but they still like to look at them you know I mean they still yeah I don't know Yeah, especially I think with some of these science comics, there's like layers to the learning. You know, there's the initial kind of visuals. I mean, if you read through a book about, let's just say, volcanoes or coral reefs, even just seeing the images of what comprises a coral reef is going to impart some level of information to them. You know, if they don't understand, you know, the specifics of the life cycle of a coral reef or the dangers to a coral reef, like, I don't know, they'll get to that. You know, they can absorb these things in stages.
    40:50
    In the first Leo Geo book, I think I have some crazy long formula for like free fall. And, you know, no, I don't expect any child to actually like learn the free fall equation. It's just there as like almost like a textural element.
    41:06
    Oh, man. So what's the date? It's I don't know. It's the 16th of March. March 16th, 2020, our world has completely changed. You just got back. So I talked to John a couple weeks ago about coming on just because we haven't chatted in a while and I wanted to talk to him. And I wanted to talk to you in touch base. And I'm like, why not put it on our podcast? But the world has changed between then and now. Yeah. You were just in Denmark for a couple weeks. Yeah, I was teaching bookmaking at the Animation Workshop, which is a school in Viborg, Denmark.
    41:50
    They have a graphic storytelling track. It was really, really phenomenal. Really hardworking kids. And yeah, what was going on over here with COVID was just like not on the radar. I did not have Internet access. It wasn't until. Oh, really? Okay, wow. Oh, I mean, the first, like I talked to my wife. several times and she was wrapped up. She's a middle school teacher and she was kind of wrapped up in that. And so it never came up. I mean, I was aware that it was like a problem in China and in Italy, but I hadn't kind of been alerted to what it had, what it kind of transpired here stateside and how things had kind of progressed in various places around the world. And it wasn't until I was like coming back and my flight from Amsterdam to Salt Lake City was suspiciously vacant. It wasn't completely empty, but there was, I had a whole row to myself on this international flight. Um, and when I talked to my wife about it in Salt Lake city, she was like, uh, I think it's because less people are traveling right now. Um, and so I was here and I was here for like a week and a half, uh, before they, they put the, like the travel ban on Europe. Um, now you're, And you're in the Seattle area now, right? No, I'm in Sacramento, California. Oh, okay. Okay. I don't know. I was thinking you were in Seattle, but that's right, Sacramento. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you were in Vermont, and you guys just moved within the last year. Yeah, we moved out here. My wife got a new job. Vermont is lovely. We both grew up there. But we were in Manchester Center, Vermont, and it was very, very small, 8,000 people in the town, a really different demographic than the kind of community that we wanted to have our first kid in. Not a lot of young families.
    43:42
    And we just needed a change. But as a side note, I recently found out that they actually opened a 30-machine pinball arcade in Manchester Center, Vermont, two months after I moved.
    43:56
    I'm flipping my table over here. How dare you, universe? But yeah, so we moved out here and it's been a very, you know, it's been a tough transition anytime you move somewhere. Yeah.
    44:11
    But we're getting on. Yeah. So you got back, you got back to the States, you said like a week and a half ago. Yeah, a week and a half ago. And I work from home in my in my studio, which is also my living room.
    44:25
    So I was already very adept at practicing social distancing. Yeah. Um, so, you know, it's, it's, it's been really wild to see things changing so quickly since I got back so quickly. Yeah, we are. I mean, we're on basically my kids. It's Monday. My kids were out of school Friday. They've closed my kids school. And I, and I certainly don't want to just dwell on the COVID stuff, but I also, it's hard not to dwell on the COVID stuff. I mean, we are like right now like in the thick of like our world just has changed, like not changing, like it's completely changed. Changed past tense, yeah. Yeah, changed past tense. And I also think that we are looking at long-term isolation.
    45:17
    Yeah. You know, we just don't know. Um, you know, I've seen people posting kind of graphs that compare what we're going through with like Italy's timeline. You know, we have Wuhan, the Wuhan province to kind of compare stuff to, but at the end of the day, like life here is different and our population is different. And so it's, it's going to be totally different. You know, I keep asking my wife, well, like at the end of these four weeks that you aren't teaching in person, cause they've closed her school down too. Yeah. Like what's what's the assessment? What's the benchmark for like, oh, let's just get back into school.
    45:53
    I don't I don't know. I so I have a friend in South Korea who is a toy maker and I I collect his toys, but we like we'll chat on on Instagram and they've been. so South Korea has been one of the countries I was hit with it pretty early on, but they've seemed to have done a pretty decent job in quelling the, um, surge, I guess to call it, you know, like, yeah, because that's kind of what we're trying to avoid right now. We're trying to avoid a surge of people going to the hospital. And so they've been able to avoid it. And I asked him, cause he posted a picture the other day of his, of his kids playing video games. I said, you know, as I sent him a message, I was like, how long have you guys been isolated?
    46:38
    And he said, 30 days. And I said, how much longer do you have? Two weeks. Wow. So, and they came out, I mean, you know, they came out today and have basically, you know, you know, they said, don't be in groups any greater than 10 people. And real, and they even said realistically that they're looking at that type of isolation for two months. Yeah. To curb it enough so that our hospital system can keep up.
    47:09
    Yeah. So it's a little crazy. I mean – and I don't know. It's really interesting. I mean especially like coming – okay, so let's talk about pinball. I mean pinball for me is a very social activity. It's like I own a lot of games and I own 11 games. But it's like my joy that I have in my game room is really when I get to have my friends over and play. You know, so it's really it's really tough, you know, seeing seeing these events getting shut down, which I think is really I mean, it's super important. We have to do it. Yeah, it's the right thing. It's the right thing. But it's also like I. I don't know, I think it might. I don't know. Is it going to change our hobby? Is it going to change like I don't I don't I don't know. Like, I mean, one of the things that's always attracted me to pinball is the community. It is like the fact that it will always be better to play a terrible game, you know, like my one million point game of Theater of Magic, you know, or Jurassic Park, you know, or something that's always going to be better when I'm playing with a second player than when I'm playing by myself. Yeah.
    48:19
    And I think that the pinball community is perseverant enough to like, you know, just stay on board. And I think that pinball is like slow player growth, you know, also has like the capacity to like not have direct player growth for like a month or two and still be cool. but I think it definitely going to I mean no places are going to be buying new machines well I don know that there will be new machines to buy Well that true They probably going to shut down the lines The implications of going to less than 10 people in a location is basically going to shut down all factories.
    49:07
    Yeah, you're right. And not that you could – well, I mean like pinball is an interesting thing because you can just – you can go online and buy a pinball machine from a distributor and it just gets shipped to your house. It's not like you have to go into a car dealership. But will those games be being made? I mean will pinball manufacturers exist after two months of nothing coming off the line? I don't know. So it's – the implications of two months of isolation on our society is going to be extreme.
    49:44
    Yeah. Oh, it's going to be – yeah, it's going to be extreme with small businesses not being able to afford the part-time work. Yeah. People are going to be let go. It's – yeah, it's going to be much longer than once people stop getting just COVID.
    50:00
    Man. so yeah not to be a downer man but well I mean just like when you said like what's up yeah my natural gut reaction is just to enter some sort of like normal societal script where I'm like oh everything's cool it's like wait a minute no yeah like I had an art director call me today and we did the same thing where he was like how's everything and I was like well everything's fine but you know da da da da da well it's relative though right I mean it is relative because we're we're in isolation so our isolation is fine like you know i mean you talked about your anxiety i have to say like last night like i got into bed and i had a moment where i was just like this is so fucked like i you know like i had that like that a like i had that yeah that anxiety of like this is not good but it's not like it's a feeling um like sometimes i would get it before I fly. We're also like, you can't like, you can't swallow, you know, where you're like, eh, something's not right. Um, yeah, yeah. I get like, um, I get like, it feels like I had too much caffeine, like that sort of jitters in my chest. I had it last Thursday. I had a really bad bout of it. And then, you know, I talked to a couple of friends, I reached out to people and, you know, I've, I've since mellowed out. Yeah. But it's tough. I mean, it's tough, but yeah, that's our reality now. So yeah. Yeah. It just, you know, I think a lot about those like smaller venues, you know, and especially like in places like Seattle, they've like closed down all restaurants in San Francisco, right next to us here in Sacramento, they've closed down all restaurants except for takeout. So like, even if you were to have like a little hole in the wall place with that, you could have realistically 10 people. It's just not going to be viable. I mean, for someone like me who doesn't have pinball in the home, like I'm not going to be able to play pinball for, uh, for a while. Yeah. Um, I'll have to get my jollies, uh, like watching streams. Yeah. Um, well, one of the, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you and I think that, I mean, you posted pictures on your Instagram about it. So I think it's open to talk about is your current project, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. It's been announced. Yeah. And, and so John is, John is doing an illustrated history of pinball. right yeah it's a graphic novel it's part history and part kind of like it's a love letter it's a love letter yeah it really uh uh you know it's funny when i was doing the research for the book i really deep dove into the mechanical history and to like the different personalities but my editor had me on a pretty strict page limit and also i'm walking this very fine line between something that's going to be interesting and initiate non-pinball people and something that's going to be a rewarding satisfying read for pinball people because i also it's it's a love letter to pinball but it's also like a thank you letter to like the community uh that's made me feel so welcome and given me so much joy um and that's been a hard balance and you know there's some very like deep divey stuff technically that i just like i i couldn't do because it was just too isolating. Um, uh, so yeah, it's partially a history and then partially kind of a, like very starry eyed love letter. Like why, why does it work? You know, why does it keep on coming back? Um, you know, and I think those things are the fact that it's like, you know, a great example of multiple multidisciplinary art. It has a strong community behind it and it's, um, it's, It's art that creates a relationship. It's not a one-sided experience like a painting or a book.
    53:50
    It's things like that that I think make it enduring, and I try to express that as eloquently as possible. And this is being done through the First Second Publishing House as well, right? Yeah, yeah.
    54:05
    I used to talk to people from there about pinball just because I like pinball. And they did a book with this cartoonist, Box Brown, who's done a lot of great history comics, one on Andre the Giant, one on – if Tommy hasn't read it, he definitely should.
    54:24
    Then one about cannabis, one about Andy Kaufman, one about Tetris. And the one about Tetris was really popular, and I think that gave them the idea like, oh, wait a minute. Like this kind of book that examines the history of this game aspect of American gaming culture has potential. And so that's when they thought it was a good idea.
    54:51
    And this – and then like the way that they market this, like what's the idea is like to who they're going to market this to? I mean because it's not necessarily to pinball people, right? No, it's not. They're going to be marketing it, I think, to the same audience that was interested in reading the Box Brown comic. People that are interested in American history, people that are interested in gaming, arcade culture, video games.
    55:19
    I think the demographic is like 16 to 30, I think, is the core type of young person that they're hitting for. um but again i personally wanted to still make it not a snooze fest for pinball people oh yeah and when i and when i think of like what i want to do with the book it's just like going to pinberg and you know going to texas pinball festival yeah like that's that's what excites me about it no i i looked at um i don't know what where in the process you were but i saw John sent me a copy of the what was it? I know it was all the pencil sketches. The recent one? No, the one before it. The thumbnails.
    56:06
    I saw that and I immediately like I was saying earlier one of the things I liked about it was it touched on the idea that there was a relationship, a give and take between the pinball machine and the player. So it was it wasn't just a technical thing. Like it was getting into like there's actual like somewhat of like almost a magical experience happening, you know, so it's not like this dry like here's a history of pinball. But it really got into like what what created that special relationship between player and machine or just player and the history of pinball, which I think is really interesting. It's really hard to make like like a timeline for this stuff. Like, I think the other reason why it couldn't just be strictly a history book about pinball is because, you know, pinball's history is very nebulous. You know, there's certain things like Humpty Dumpty we can look to or Spirit of 76 and be like, OK, that's the first flipper machine. That's the first solid state machine. But even then, like, there's always asterisks. There's asterisks on everything. It's like, oh, high speed is the first game with a story. Well, what do you consider a story? Yeah, yeah. That was difficult for me, someone who is really obsessed with exactness, both in the drawing and the research that I try to do, in that when I find something, I want to be as authoritative as possible, but also cast as wide of a net as possible.
    58:03
    You said you had a very specific page count. Yeah. The printer prints in increments of 16 pages. They were like, okay, it has to be less than this much. but more than this much. And then it has to hit either this page count or this page count. And so depending on how much back matter I want, like, you know, some basic flipper skills, you know, cause I'm hoping that this book will also inspire people to, to take up the silver ball or some glossary stuff. You know, how long does that stuff need to be? How much story pages does that make? Do we have an introduction? So yeah, there's, there's a kind of a specific page count for the comics content that I need to hit. So can you talk a little bit about the way that your book is structured? Because there's definitely like a historical structure.
    58:53
    You kind of come back and touch back on some things. Yeah, yeah. As the way the book stands now is I, you know, my editors wanted me to like really catch the imagination. and so I know this is like you know tried and true material for pinball people but the book starts off with just really you know questioning what is pinball you know what are we looking at what are we actually interacting with how do we describe it and then I quickly transport us to the 30s we lead up to LaGuardia's ban on pinball and very quickly up to Roger Sharp's game and that's like kind of the first part is kind of hanging on this cliffhanger like what's going to happen like do you think the entirety of pinball could hang on one shot and i've come to realize that even that is kind of like an oversimplification of what happened but it it is effective as a as a dramatic tool to kind of get people like invested like oh wow could pinball really go away yeah and at that point i kind of let off the throttle and i bring us back to you know the the lawn games of ancient greece the the lawn games and tabletop games of 17th century France, across the ocean, you know, Bagatelle. I bring us up through, and then basically it's following the tech, the, the technology and the, and the chronology. We go through the thirties talk about electricity and how that influenced the game. Uh, then we talk about the flippers, what that does for the game, how that evolves the rule set, like how early rule sets were the beginning of the storytelling capacity for pinball. Um, or the, I guess the communicative ability for pinball to communicate rules without actually like having a rule book or a talking face on the machine, uh, that told you everything. And then up through solid state, uh, are the history of arcades, DMD, uh, the pinball 2000 stuff at the end of the nineties. Uh, and then I return to the Roger Sharp stuff, you know, as kind of a parallel, although definitely not the same, you know, pinball found finds itself in the year 2000 kind of at like a a moment of trial a moment of testing like how will it emerge from this and uh you know i kind of wrap up the roger sharp story and then bring us back it's like okay well how did pinball survive in the 2000s and the answer is community in my mind community and perseverance yeah um and so then the the last part is just like a real feel-good like you know like god boy howdy yeah yeah yeah so what um yeah i i thoroughly enjoyed it i mean it was i mean one it was it was really cool just to look at the thumbnails just like to see the process um i mean just because i'm coming from you know i went to art school and all that so i have a little bit of an art background so i really i love seeing the process um that kind of stuff is just seeing the way you work or way artists work. I know when I first started collecting art and a lot of the work that I've collected from yourself and other people who do pinball art, like I'm much more interested in like a sketch or like I don't necessarily, you know, it's like that's great that there's a finished piece, but I like seeing like the pencil, you know, like where those erase marks are or where like you may have checked to see if your pen was like working correctly on the margins, you know, like that kind of stuff is like, I like that because it captures that moment in the artistic brain that there's – you can see that there's – something is happening right here. Yeah. It's not always – I don't always like the really clean stuff. But yeah, so it was really nice seeing that – what you were doing and seeing how, like I said, like this – you really touched on the magic of pinball. And that's just something – I think it's a hobby that's kind of difficult to explain to people who aren't really into it because they don't really understand like where does this passion come from it. I think about the things that I am into and I feel very much like an outsider. Like I've always felt like an outsider. Like I was into punk rock music but I never considered myself a punk. I do a lot of stuff in pinball but I don't really feel like I'm a pinballer. Like that sounds maybe ridiculous but I just have a passion for it. It's just part of who I am. Right. So looking and reading and reading your book like I I don't know, I felt like you were describing. I don't know. There were moments where I was like, yeah, that's that's it. That's it. Like there's there were some of the drawings you did were were very chaotic.
    63:36
    That I don't know, it it spoke to me. I don't I can't really tell. Oh, that's very sweet. And, you know, I really appreciate getting the feedback from all sorts of people. Like, you know, I know that you have an art background and you have a pinball background. Like I wanted people who do like non-comics art to look at it. I wanted people who have never played pinball to look at it. I wanted people who have played pinball but not done art to look at it. And that's been really valuable for any project to just get that level of feedback. even though I think you made the point that like some of these pages are like, because they're thumbnails, they're very quickly drawn on index cards and then I blow them up and put word balloons over them. And to me I can kind of see the, the means through the madness. Yeah. But I know for some you were like, I don't really know what's going on in these pages, but like, yeah, there are a couple where, yeah, it was like, it was super quick. Well, part of it is like, I'm looking at it.
    64:39
    Like, Like I'm looking at it not just from like as a story being told, but I'm also trying to go back to like my Cezanne's composition, like very classical, like how is something composed and how does the eye move from the left to the right in a downward diagonal? And so I'm looking at it like that as well, and I'm like I don't know if I should care about this not being as interesting as the thing up here because I don't know that it really matters in the scheme of things. Because a lot of it can change when it's colored.
    65:11
    Like I think that's one of the things that's kind of – that I love about owning a couple of your pieces that are like the pen work for the Pinnberg poster or for the cat bug. Because looking at what I have and then seeing the finished rendered piece, I mean it's – like I love what I have because it's your work. But then having it next to the finished piece is like wow. You know, it's like it's amazing to see how it transforms to that final product. Yeah. How coloring can really it's always I still get a kick out of looking at like inked pages from comics, you know, where it looks completely different. Or even just to bring it back to pinball, like when you look at just the playfield art in relation to everything else, like the actual like Attack from Mars.
    66:00
    Attack from Attack from Mars playfield art. Doug Watson did a great job, but it's like really, really simple. It's really straightforward. Really simple. But in the context of its entirety, like once you put everything there, it's totally amazing. It's like so appropriate. Same with high speed. High speed is so pared down for the plate field art.
    66:20
    But with all the plastic, you know, the plastics of the trees on them and the signs and the targets that are the same color as the traffic lights, it just all totally works. um so yeah i get i get it like seeing that the building blocks leading up to that point well i think one thing that's interesting is like when stern released a monster's pinball and it was all black and white like it was it was really weird to me like it was i mean i kind of i kind of like the idea but i love it yeah but they went like 99 of the way there they had like a target and a couple of inserts that were still colored yeah like if you're gonna if you're gonna go all the way i would go i would have gone all the way but i love the idea my friend's mom picked up one of those and the thing is beautiful had did you ever see the twilight zone that somebody did in all black and white no so the entire thing is black and white cabinet everything it's it was done by a guy out of chicago american oh it's like a great american pinball uh great american pinball and it's a all black and white twilight zone so he re-scanned the playfield and had it done in black and white had all the decals done black and white oh that's amazing i'm looking at it right now back box yeah it's i think and he did a color dmd so that it could be in black and white it's it's stunning and and for that title it's it worked perfectly because of course twilight zone is based on the classic tv show which was in black and white yeah oh god what a good job it took it took a it took him a long time as well like i remember when he first posted pictures of the playfield process. And cause I think at that point, I don't know that he had a playfield, maybe he was doing like an overlay or something like that. But, and then there was just silence on the project. And then I think I saw decals and then finally it started coming together, but yeah, it's pretty stunning. Yeah. Um, man, that's amazing. Yeah. It's an amazing thing. But yeah. So with pinball, um, your your experience your first your the first game you played was star wars episode one how did you get into the drop target scene like i i know about zines like you know i grew up in the punk rock community like we like we did zines out of my out of the punk rock house i lived in i just sent you some pictures of i made this i made like this little coloring book called the coloring book of the damned it was amazing like early 90s but yeah it's just so good well i found it i Because I have – like I was going through the attic and I found like this old box of like slides and like the first shows I were in, like the show cards.
    69:05
    And so – and one of the things I was in, it was the book. Like there's just one of them. And I had like done the drawings and I photocopied them at Kinko's or whatever we photocopied on back then. It was probably at Kinko's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just made this little book. But so –
    69:22
    If I was – I'm 34 years old. if I was born you're like 34 oh my god I'm 34 you're such a baby man it's a bald it's the bald is that yeah okay I wish I was born back in like the zine era because I mean I've read about places like Seattle or Portland where like people would just like introduce each other by just like handing zines like calling cards yeah oh zines about everything um yeah I mean printing crisis has gone up and I think that like that kind of level of guerrilla self-publishing is in some ways like not part of the scene as much anymore but zine and mini comic culture is still like very much alive but we got into it uh because we were ingesting all of this pinball stuff we read uh multiball was the first zine we got our hands on yeah uh then skillshot uh you know we were talking to people we were watching these documentaries and Alec and I we were having a lot of fun and we wanted to contribute something to pinball um but we we looked for like what sort of gap there was because like a zine had already been made like we didn't need to make a zine about places to play in vermont there wasn't enough places like we didn't need to do a zine with interviews with you know person x y and z because those those already existed and we saw that as you know many comic makers and cartoonists and illustrators there was this you know there was this gap that we could fill of just like heavily illustrated pinball content.
    70:56
    Um, and we just, we just made it to contribute, to just share how much we love pinball and, you know, kind of tie two communities together, you know, people that were in comics and into zines that, but maybe not into pinballs. How could we bring them over? Um, and it was through a publication. Um, and we purposely designed it to be like very well designed, but very, um, easy to make. Uh, we, we screen printed the covers, uh, one on top of another. So it was two per page and we just cut it in half. So the printing time was really easy when we printed the comic, they were on 11, seven by 11 by seven teens, also two up. And so we cut those in half. Um, so it was really easy. It was really easy to make. The only thing that was difficult is the first edition of every, of every zine, every issue had a, uh, like a fold out, like a centerfold sort of thing where our featured guests would get like a full color spread to, to make a dream machine. Um, that's something else that we just love doing, uh, was just bringing kind of our imaginative, like what if kind of blue skying attitudes to pinball. Yeah.
    72:07
    Yeah. I, I don't know when I got my first copy of drop target. Like, I don't know where I came across it but um the drop target teams are amazing and you guys you still have the you still have the book available right yeah the omnibus the omnibus which was done through a kickstarter right yeah well we made the book uh you know we did a lot of research because again we both come from comics and i've done you know i'm very aware of like the board gaming community for instance and each community kind of has a different sort of relationship with Kickstarter. Yeah. And so we did our research to kind of see like, okay, well, what has worked and what hasn't worked in the pinball community? And I'm not going to say what it is, although I'm sure everyone knows, but I could see that there was a lot of problems with certain Kickstarters not delivering on the goods. And so Alec and I sat down and we're like, okay, this book needs to be done. Yeah. Not like in progress. It needs to be absolutely done before we put up the thing. and we just are like using it as like a pre model And so that how we that how we treated it Everything was essentially done The only adjustment we needed to make was that in the 11th hour the paper thickness changed and that just meant that we had to readjust the spine. That was the only change we ever made between the version that we held in our hands before the campaign and after the campaign. Yeah.
    73:36
    Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, you go. Well, I was going to ask, so what was the response? I mean the response was obviously great, right? Yeah. People seem jazzed. Yeah. I mean I think that's – I think one of the things that's really interesting about pinball is that pinball – from when I got into pinball now is that when I got into pinball, one, everybody was like pinball is dead, right? Like I've been collecting for about 15 years. You could buy games really cheap, but basically, yeah, people would just rent it off. They were like – the expectation was that Stern was going to fold. But I think that at least for me, like I wasn't aware of it if there was like obviously you knew about some zines happening and stuff like that. But there just wasn't like a pinball culture. Right. There wasn't anything like it was like, yeah, you go play the machine. You might own a game, but there was nothing really beyond that. Right. So between now, between then and now, you know, it's like you see like pinball clothing manufacturers, you know, like. Yeah. Tilt hammer, soft plunge, double danger.
    74:46
    The guys from – I'm blanking on it. There's a group up from like the northeast who does a ton of like pinball stuff. I'm totally blanking and I apologize. But it will come to me. But then also you have drop targeting. You guys had your omnibus. but you have um ryan clader and nick baldridge's coin-op cauldron like you have like culture right because which is so exciting it's great yeah there's and i think part of that has to do with like you know us being more connected via the internet than we were back in like the 90s yeah you know um i mean obviously we had this capacity in the late 90s early 2000s but i think that like the ability to, you know, post videos, you know, all the, the Bo and Karen stuff on Papa, that was huge for us when we were getting into pinball, you know, like, cause we didn't have a theater of magic to practice on, you know, being able to watch that was like such a godsend. So I think that it's a lot of like the connectivity has increased and I don't know. I think every time someone does something successful, they kind of pave the way for someone else to share their passion and that's just awesome do you think i mean how much would you credit pin side with changing the way that pinball culture exists because i think like going back to before pin side right you had rgp which was wrecking pinball which was like an online community but it wasn't visual i think pin side changed that because it's it became a visual thing right you became The interface of Pinside is such that it just creates a completely different world of pinball culture.
    76:36
    It's definitely easier to navigate than RGP. Oh, yeah. RPG? Rex got RGP. Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge lurker on Pinside, but I go there a couple times a week to kind of brush up on what's going on in the scene and what sort of tournaments and what's the news on machines and stuff. It's a great central location. And when I did go to that Pinberg, you probably saw it on Pinside. It's one of the only five posts I've ever made on Pinside because I knew that's where the community is looking.
    77:10
    I think that helping people sell machines and connect that way, I'm trying to think that some of the most memorable interactions I actually had was on RPG, RGP. Ugh, I'm going to keep messing it up. So it's Rec Games Pinball. Yeah, RGP. I remember I had a – I used to have two machines. I had a Jurassic Park, the 1993 one, and then a 1986 Gottlieb Arena. And one of the plastics for the Jurassic Park was busted by the flippers. Yeah. And I asked if anybody had a scan. And somebody sent me – they like unscrewed theirs from their machine within an hour and gave me like a high-resolution scan.
    77:56
    It was amazing. And then I had a problem with – on the main board, the main like kind of power outlet was burned out. And I was kind of trying to figure out how to fix it or whether I needed to like use new Molex connectors. And again, within like 30 minutes, somebody had like answered my question and like totally led me in the right direction. um i haven't had the same experience on pin side because i had sold my sheens yeah um because i moved to a smaller apartment uh and i really regret that i wish i had my machine still i the one yeah so so pin side i think is for me because i like own or run like a little pinball company with my rails like i have to say that i don't get on pin side a lot because there is like there can be a bit of a toxic environment on there sometimes depending upon which threads you want to get into every once in a while while i will dip my toes in something like i'll read something where i just like i can't ignore it and i say something and then i get out like i'm like i'm not trying to troll anybody but i'm like a hit and run kind of guy sometimes you just drop it and you're like bye yeah i'm like i drop it i'm like you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and then I just, I get out of there. Um, but I will say like, I, from my experience with selling rails and one of the things I was, I was interested in, like if you got, did any research by using pin side, I don't know if you did or not, but, um, but also if you were planning on using it as a platform to sell your book, um, I will say that like the support I've gotten for my little business has been amazing. Like, I feel like there's, yeah, I don't know. I, I will say that about pin side. And I, I did want to say that about like my customers, because a lot of them do listen to the podcast and stuff like that. But like, I have an amazing, I have an amazing customer base. And especially now with everything that's happening, like I have 20 sets of rails in my garage that I've been working on. And it's like, I, I basically have been shut down. Like officially shut down since Christmas, but orders just don't stop because people know that if they get in touch with me, I'll try to make them. You must have such a collection of jigs or prototypes of different games at this point. Well, so people will send me their old rails. So I basically have rails that I use as a template to make new rails. Template, that's the word. Yeah. So I have over like 80 sets of rails just from you know all every every era games i have like i have a um i have a like the side i have like the side from a i have some part from a wood rail game that somebody sent to me and was like can you make me 10 of these because i want to carry them in my online and shop. And I was like, okay, I don't know. I just have one now. Um, I think Pinside is, I think it's, I think it's really interesting community because it's massive. It's really massive. It's huge. It's huge. And I think it's really useful. You know, I've found very welcoming corners of it, you know, and when I have posted about things that I'm into, you know, people showed me a lot of support at that first replay effects and it really warmed my heart. Yeah. So, So to answer your question, yeah, I'm definitely going to talk about the project and definitely try to reach out to people to see what would be the best places to tour. Because I would love to do signings and stuff at pinball places if we're at that point when the book comes out. Yeah, so I definitely like it. I feel like there's another part of your question. I don't know.
    81:58
    Oh, to use it for research. Yes, sorry. Yes, I have. I've absolutely used it for research. There's a lot of like cultural or like scene memory that like is floating around on pin side that I've definitely found useful. There's a couple people that like have worked on machines but not been credited that like it's been important for me to track down. pricing is something that is like notorious because like i can't just go on 2020 ebay and be like whirlwind and get like an accurate price as to what it's going to cost like new in box um so that's that sort of stuff has been like very very useful um even though it wasn't around when like ninja turtles from the early 90s came out yeah there's still like the memory and posts that kind of other people have asked these questions i'm not the first person to kind of wonder like What were the new in-box prices in 1982? Yeah.
    82:50
    Do you have an estimated time for publishing? Do you have a due date? I do have a due date. My due date is the end of the summer. I have to have inks done by the middle of June, and then I'll be coloring from then until like August, like end of August. And you do everything, like you're coloring it and everything. Yeah. Yeah, we'll see where I am when I get to coloring. There's a cartoonist friend of mine, Luke Healy, who's done some really great books in the UK. He did How to Survive in the North and Americana, which is about his trip on the PCT. And he has sometimes helped me out with the coloring. So I'll see how up against the fence I feel once I get to June.
    83:37
    But I might bring him on board. and is the book like do you feel like the book content is set right now yeah i you know i'm waiting to hear back from my editor on the pencils that i think i sent you yeah i've got the pencils i have not like it was in the middle of like kind of this spiral that we've been on yeah i i know i i it's true i sent them off right before i went to denmark and i was like well like enjoy editor yeah i'm sure he's still wrapped up in all this stuff and working remotely. Um, yeah, I, this is going to be like the last opportunity for like kind of big content shifts. Uh, yeah. You know, and I've been talking to people about rearranging a couple of things and like maybe moving a page here and there. Um, you know, I'm trying to limit my redraws, but I'm totally open for it if it makes for a better, more successful book. Yeah.
    84:27
    But then once, once that's locked up, then it's just going to be inking, inking, inking. and you do this all by hand do you do any digital work yes I do it all by hand the only digital work I do is I use a program called Clip Studio which is a program out of Japan for making comics and this is like the English version I used to make my panel borders that's it everything else is done by hand I'll do some clean up in Photoshop but I don't do any of the actual drawing in Photoshop you have any other projects you're working on outside the pinball book what's the actual name of the book you know what I keep calling it the pinball book but I feel very bad in saying this but we haven't landed on a title because you know the the list of titles that kind of evoke pinball in a in a lay person are all kind of used you know like I'm sure I could come up with a fun title that you and I would get as a reference to pinball. Right. Um, but you know, things like, you know, the words like wizard and tilt and special when lit, like all that stuff is kind of already out in the ether. So I got to, you know, we're still trying to figure out what's a good title that will be a signifier of pinball, but it hasn't already been used before.
    85:49
    Do you have a, I don't want it to be called a pinball book though. I'll try to avoid that. What do you, um, do you have any projects coming up after this or is this kind of like get this one in the bag or um i actually have like three more books uh but i can't talk about them awesome yeah uh well look it sounds like you have like dinners being made i'm sorry can you hear that oh yeah yeah we can all hear it it's okay it's okay hey listen i i'm I'm a simple guy and I've got a studio in my living room. So this is the high quality John chat experience. I want to thank you for, um, coming on and talking to Ella and myself. Oh, I'm getting the tour. John is walking around. I'm trying to, I'm trying to move or move away from the kitchen. Oh no, you're fine, man. You're fine. I was going to say like, I was going to, I was going to cut you loose. I was going to thank you for chatting and telling you to, I was just going to tell you to take care and be safe. And yeah, it was good to talk to you, man. Glad you're back in the States. And yeah, I'm looking forward to the book. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think it's going to be really well received. I know, you know, I think seeing the excitement that Ryan and Nick got with their book. And, you know, I think I think what's really interesting about their book was that it was very.
    87:15
    It was very specific, you know, like they're doing. They're doing electromechanical pinball, electromechanical world, right?
    87:24
    So, yeah, I think it's just a fascinating and interesting time to see how the culture of pinball is expanding and that stuff that they did and this project that you're working on, how much excitement there is for it in this community. that seems just so wrapped up sometimes in kind of like what's the price of a new in box game you know like yeah like we it seems like so much of the so much of the conversation is about problems and pinball and then you get you know when you look into the culture of it the culture of pinball is really more of about a celebration of pinball yeah i it's it makes me so happy that like uh coin-op carnival you know can exist like you can have like that um in depth of a sorry cat attack that was a cat attack um that you can have like that in depth of like a publication like just about uh uh electromechanical stuff like that just like totally thrills me like i want i want to see that somebody make that book but for like pin 2k like a four issue yeah pin 2k uh deep dive no it's it's it's uh it's interesting it's a um yeah it's such a crazy time man it was good to talk to you yeah this was super nice uh definitely made ella's day man you've Yeah, like Ella was so excited. I mean she's like whenever – Oh, that was so much fun. Oh, that was so great. And I'm genuinely invested in whether she makes growlers or not. Dude, she – like she the other night – and this was after like everything had kind of like hit the fan. So on Thursday, they announced that they weren't going to have school Friday. Yeah. So Thursday night, it was kind of like – I mean I cannot imagine – and it really breaks my heart. I'm not trying to get emotional, but it really breaks my heart that like my kids are going through this right now. Like that's what just I don't know. I can't like I'm having a very tough time comprehending what's happening.
    89:47
    And but I think about my kids and I'm like, I don't even like I don't know how this is going to impact their world. That's the sure that's the scariest thing for me. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And especially if this is just like another form of the flu season, like is social distancing going to be a bigger part of American life? Yeah. We just don't know. And I think that like I was talking to somebody today about like fear and caution. And I remind myself that like precaution is not a bad thing. But also fear in this instance is kind of also a way to describe like empathy. You know, like we're afraid of like what will happen to other people. Like we're afraid of like the more vulnerable members of our community. That's empathy. And that's great. And it's really warming my heart to see acts of kindness and a lot of empathetic spirit in our communities.
    90:50
    So I hope everyone out there is just staying safe, staying sane, washing your hands. And chats like this really put fuel in the tank. So thank you for reaching out. Absolutely, man. It's always good to talk to you. I mean, usually we're just texting each other, but, uh, it's good to talk to you and it's, um, look forward to the, look forward to the book and hit me up and yeah, keep in touch, be safe.
    91:22
    And that's all I got, man. Um, until next time, but yeah, just be safe and to, to the listeners out there, you guys, everybody just be safe. If you can find a pinball machine, play one, maybe let somebody lend you one. I don't know. I just feel like it's a hobby built on community, like we were saying. And so hopefully that as a community, we can come together and get through this. And the next time we're out and we're playing, it's going to just be a big party. Oh, my gosh. It's going to be huge. so everybody take care john thanks for joining uh thanks for joining us the co-host ella and yeah special guest ella have a uh have a great night and have a great dinner and i'll talk to you later man yeah take take it easy taylor i'll talk to you later all right brother all right man bye bye all right well i can't i can't say enough about um about how much my family loves John's work. So obviously like it's impacted my daughter, my kids, both of them who are both avid readers. Um, if you, I, I think some, I don't know that all of John's prior work is still in print, but you still might be able to get it. But the Leo Geo books are incredible. Like absolutely like got my kids super excited about science. Bad mask is just, it's a piece of artwork. and I personally I like collecting work by people I know my friends and so you know I try to collect stuff that I like and that my friends have made there's something about like John was talking about you know creating the zines I think it's just something it's like I really like making things and I really like people who are driven to make things and I think that you know this like zines or something where it's like just self-published stuff or just creating like little doodles or anything like that i think that's just you're putting yourself out there and but you just have a desire to create and i think that you know pinball it's you know pinball are like the ultimate toys or the ultimate machines but you know like looking like you know the designs and all these you know looking behind my collection of games and just seeing like these magical boxes that were created by somebody, a group of people, a group of people came together and like just created magic and put it in a box. And, um, yeah, it's just something about it. And I think that John's work has that. And yeah, I'm looking forward. The book he's working on is amazing. I think every, every pinballer will want a copy of it and that's it. So episode 99, uh, Tommy and I will be back chatting again, but yeah, so, um, everybody be safe and we will, um, we'll see you on the other side of this. All right. Good night.
    94:48
    Over your heads, over your ears You got your mouth running on You got your eyes looking for something That could never be found Like a reason Could God have told me the reason I never thought too hard on dying before I never thought on the dying I never held a hand in dying before And now I'm feeling the dying And you got to Give me the shot Give me the pill Give me the cure Now won't you touch my world
    95:45
    I never thought too hard on dying before I never thought on the dying I never walked the side of dying before And now I feel like I'm Now I feel like I'm Under your skin I can't hold your eyes I'm at the tip of your fingers It's bad, it's bad, it's bad Tell me the reason Give me the shots Give me the pill Give me the cure It's bad, it's bad, it's bad You throw to my walls Coming around, coming around Coming around, coming down
    96:43
    Give me the shot Give me the pill Give me the cure Now what you done to my world? Give me the shot Now come on, give me the pill Give me the cure Now what you done to my world?
    97:13
    Give me the shot! you