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Ep 151: Pinball Expo 2024 Recap

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 29m·analyzed·Oct 25, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.038

TL;DR

Loser Kid Podcast recaps Expo 2024: Metallica remaster impresses, Alice underwhelms, homebrews shine.

Summary

Josh Roop and Scott Larson recap their Pinball Expo 2024 experience, discussing new Metallica remaster by John Borg with detailed playfield tweaks, Dutch Pinball's Alice in Wonderland as a visually stunning but gameplay-limited title, growing interest in pre-war mechanical pinball machines, and standout homebrew games like Saw and Greatest Showman that showcase exceptional craft comparable to commercial releases.

Key Claims

  • Metallica remaster features millimeter-level playfield adjustments by John Borg to improve gameplay

    high confidence · John Borg directly told hosts that ramps are slightly shorter and feature precise millimeter-level changes to improve play

  • Raymond is the 'heir apparent' to Lyman Sheets' legacy for balanced, complex rule sets

    medium confidence · Josh states this as opinion during Metallica discussion; Raymond is adding content to new Metallica code

  • Alice in Wonderland has upper playfield locked behind achievement progression

    high confidence · Melvin (Dutch Pinball designer) explained that unearned access via 'pass through' bypasses progression; hosts experienced this

  • Greatest Showman homebrew cost approximately $16,000 in parts and materials

    high confidence · Hosts provide direct quote from machine specs at Pinball Expo homebrew display

  • Greatest Showman homebrew took over 800 hours to complete and still needed more coding

    high confidence · Direct specifications from Expo homebrew display information

  • Saw homebrew homebrew had five dedicated team members including artist and sound designer Glenn Wecker

    high confidence · Hosts provide team breakdown while discussing Saw's professional quality relative to other homebrews

  • Alice in Wonderland shooting mechanics are comparable to best post-Bally/Williams games

    medium confidence · Scott's opinion after reflection: 'Alice in Wonderland is probably the best shooting game after bally Harry Williams'

  • Stern Pro Edition machines can be upgraded with speaker lights and expression lights aftermarket

    high confidence · Hosts discuss Metallica Pro tier value proposition; Josh mentions wanting speaker lights for Rush

  • Deep dish Chicago pizza delivery failed to meet 45-minute promise, taking ~90 minutes total

Notable Quotes

  • “This isn't a lazy, Jon Hey, we want to sell a few hundred The Games thing. They really pushed this as if it were a cornerstone.”

    Josh Roop @ ~12:45 — Emphasizes Stern's commitment to Metallica remaster as full new product rather than cash grab

  • “I would argue this is the Let's Get Rocked version of Jurassic Park, where it's not going to be Theater of Magic. It's not going to be Tales of the Arabian Knights.”

    Scott Larson @ ~28:30 — Uses music industry analogy to contextualize Alice in Wonderland as good-but-not-great, following expected sequel decline pattern

  • “The best thing Stern does is they make the Premium Edition worth it... even if you decide to go with the Pro Edition you can get a good alternative.”

    Josh Roop @ ~20:15 — Identifies Stern's strategic pricing advantage: all tiers feel valued rather than Pro being deliberately crippled

  • “Homebrews have the ability to do whatever they want without licensing interference... imagine what some of these games that have notoriously challenging licensing could do.”

    Scott Larson @ ~52:10 — Articulates key advantage homebrew games have over licensed commercial machines regarding content limitations

  • “If you don't know the difference... if you didn't know you would assume this was a cornerstone game.”

    Scott Larson @ ~51:20 — Indicates Saw homebrew matches professional manufacturing quality standards

  • “There really should be a give me for the upper play field just so someone gets to play it for the first time right... there really should be a moment where it says, Jon Hey, shoot here, and you get to play it once.”

    Josh Roop @ ~31:15 — Identifies design friction in Alice's progression locking: main feature inaccessible without luck/skill progression

Entities

Josh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonJohn BorgpersonZach SharpepersonNicolepersonRaymondpersonMelvinpersonGlenn Weckerperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Loser Kid Podcast recognized by fans at Expo Media Mixer; growing audience recognition indicating podcast influence in community

    high · Multiple people approached Josh and Scott identifying as podcast listeners; hosts note surprising level of fan recognition and gratitude

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Homebrew games receiving recognition as professional-quality equivalents to commercial releases, with Saw perceived as potentially mislabeled commercial game

    high · Scott: 'if you didn't know you would assume this was a cornerstone game' and 'felt more professional than some manufactured games I played'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Alice in Wonderland upper playfield (major feature occupying upper third) lacks entry mechanism, requiring luck-based 'pass through' for first-time players to experience

    high · Hosts played game without understanding access; Melvin confirmed upper playfield locked. Josh suggests adding tutorial shot: 'there really should be a give me for the upper play field'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Stern treating Metallica remaster as cornerstone-level product with substantial new code, art, and music investment rather than lazy cash grab

    high · Hosts emphasize 'It's not just a repolished... they really pushed this as if it were a cornerstone' with 'A lot of love and care into it'

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinball Expo 2024 featured expanded homebrew showcase with 40+ machines, including award-winning titles winning industry recognition

    high · Greatest Showman won 'Best of Show in the homebrew area'; hosts reference homebrew section growth and professional quality

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.267

0:00
thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast i am josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson we are on episode 158 and scott we're back from expo we're kind of wait wait we missed like seven episodes what did i say 158 oh we're on 151 i thought i said 151 but But you know what? It's eights, ones. It's kind of all the same. Whatever works. You know, we're over 150, so it doesn't really matter anymore, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, they all blur together at this point. They're like two whatever. Yeah. We're still way behind Ron and Bruce, yeah. Exactly. Hey, plenty of games we saw at Expo. If you're going to buy any of these games, who are you buying them from? You know, Zach and Nicole Mani, they were so busy at Expo, actually. I don't even know if they got on the floor much because they were fielding a lot of requests and a lot of things. Okay, there are so many games. I'm not even going to specify which one you should get because we're going to talk about them all. Go ahead and reach out to them because they really are great to work with. And really, he gets so many messages in a day. Really, it is just efficient to text or message because he'll get back to you really quickly. And he's always got back to me really quickly. You too, Josh, right? Yep, oh, definitely. Yeah, and also if you want those accessories, I actually want to get some speaker lights for Rush, and I think I'm going to get the Godzilla ones too. Sounds good, man. Yeah.
1:32
So let's kind of – so we did a day one recap, and then we kind of slacked. Yeah, well, okay. We were so busy, so it's fine. So let's do a quick recap as soon as I cough.
1:46
Okay. So now you were there a little bit before me, so remind me what you did the day before. so on wednesday we got in uh julie was very nice to pick my father-in-law and i up from the airport yep and i want to say we went straight to the hotel uh yes and then we went and got pf chang's i'm sorry we have one in utah i don't fully understand why i went to pf chang's but hey okay it was all right i bought spicy chicken i did not get spicy on my chicken it was like sweet and sour chicken okay i feel like pf shanks was something that i liked doing 15 years ago yeah am i wrong on that it just feels like it's it's like something i used to do in the past but i'm not interested in much anymore because payway was kind of like the cheap version of of pf shanks yes uh-huh but i still enjoy payway i don't like payway anymore it's like so much salt like really it's like a salt lick yeah it kind of is nice so we did that right and it's attached to the mall where interium's at so after pf chang's we kind of went to the mall and then the first night so wednesday is always kind of like their pre-party and i guess so we have been invited to beaty's house but every year it sounds like b's house is packed and it's like yeah we went there um there there may or may not be a sticker underneath the uh the podcasting table that i may or may not have put there a few years ago but the thing is is like well we're like we'll go to interior because it's part of the package deal, right? Sure. We show up into interior and we're actually early like, and it's packed. I was like, Oh, interior is big interior is not small. Yeah. It's not a small arcade. It's huge. And you got, and it's already packed shoulder to shoulder getting in there. And I'm like, Oh my. And so I kind of turned to, uh, Julian, Craig, Bobby, Craig, Bobby was with us as well. Hey, Craig, Bobby. I told him we're just going to grab the shuttle and head back to the hotel because it's already been a long day. Sure, you're tired. I'm tired because my son woke up at 2 o'clock and was having a rough time. And our flight left early, so it was like, anywho, I hadn't had sleep from 2 a.m. my time, and now we're an hour ahead kind of thing. And I was like, I got to go get some rest. And so we went back to the hotel. But as we're getting on the shuttle to leave for the hotel, two busloads from Expo show up with more people. my own interior is not going to be any fun now like you couldn't even get into the so there's a tournament area where all the pinball machines are at well i guess that's where all the pinball machines are now they had more on the other side but now they only have one area that place is packed and i can't even imagine what it was like on after the two both buslet showed up so anywho we just went back and chilled um kind of got went to went to bed afterwards and and then got to cern on thursday and that's kind of where we pick up because you came in on thursday afternoon I came in Thursday afternoon, and thankfully, a lot of people had already left. So you got to see Metallica, and we did talk about Metallica. Recap, Metallica is awesome. Yes. I am super excited if this is what they're going to do for older games that are legendary, that really could be brought up to modern standards by basically leveling them up. I want to see them do this for Lord of the Rings, I want to see them do this for Tron you could even argue ACDC throw ACDC in there and give this treatment too. Well what was amazing too is Borg was telling us it looks like the same Metallica but there's little itty bitty differences to make the game play better, like he was going down to like the millimeter of the rams, like the new one's just slightly shorter or something like that than the old one, I was just kind of baffled but it's really cool to see how much detail goes into these games. And so it raised a ton of questions for me. I'm like, we have to have Gomez back on soon. Well, we'll get Gomez back on. We actually did reach out to Borg. So we saw Borg. We want, we want to get them on. Cause I still want to talk about rush. I want to talk about rush. So what we, and we actually saw tons of people and we made a lot of contacts that we are hoping to bring on to the podcast.

high confidence · Scott describes detailed frustration with Giordano's delivery timing during Expo trip narrative

Jay Frenchperson
Jeffrey Jonesperson
Lisa Sue Jonesperson
Stern Pinballcompany
Dutch Pinballcompany
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Metallicagame
Alice in Wonderlandgame
Sawgame
Greatest Showmangame
Pinball Expoevent
Thomas Lawperson
  • ?

    licensing_signal: Homebrew games operate without licensing constraints, enabling fuller use of IP assets compared to commercial licensed games

    high · Scott explains: 'Homebrews have the ability to do whatever they want without licensing interference... imagine what some of these games that have notoriously challenging licensing could do' with James Bond/Star Wars examples

  • $

    market_signal: Renewed collector interest in pre-war mechanical pinball machines driven by Expo nostalgia plays and discovery of mechanical appeal

    medium · Scott became 'addicted to pre-war The Games' after winning medal on Merry-Go-Round; hosts discussing wish list for pre-war game acquisitions

  • ?

    community_signal: Glenn Wecker established as notable sound designer contributing to homebrew projects of escalating ambition

    medium · Mentioned as dedicated sound designer on Saw homebrew; characterized positively for quality work

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern successfully differentiates Premium Edition through speaker lights, expression lights, and cosmetic upgrades while maintaining Pro Edition accessibility

    high · Josh states: 'best thing Stern does is they make the Premium Edition worth it... even if you decide to go with the Pro Edition you can get a good alternative'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Metallica remaster features millimeter-level playfield refinements by John Borg to optimize gameplay flow and shot accessibility

    high · John Borg told hosts ramps are slightly shorter and involve precise adjustments, going 'down to like the millimeter of the ramps'

    • 6:01
    I, People obviously love the expo recaps and all that kind of stuff and the reveal. However, where we really stand out from a lot of people is because we do in-depth analysis with people who are in the industry. And it's really been a fun part of our gig. So I'm really excited to see all the people that we got on, even some kind of high-level people. So that was nice. Yep.
    6:28
    We talked about the Media Mixer. It was fantastic. I'm still gloating about the 21 people I knocked out on James Bond for a stall ball. Went a little cash there, and that was a blast. And by the way, so many people came up, and they came up to you too.
    6:44
    Really, from the bottom of our hearts, we are so thankful for all the people who came up and said they enjoyed listening to us. And so for all of you who are in that third chair, that silent third chair that we consider part of the podcast, we really do appreciate you. And it's so much fun to see that it makes a difference for you.
    7:08
    Go ahead. I was going to say it just made me chuckle because you listened to the pinball show this week and I did too. There's a moment where Zach talks about he flips around and there was a kid that realized this is Zach Minney and kind of fangirled out, right? We had that moment once or twice too. I remember it happening at the Media Mixer. I don't know who the gentleman was. He was very nice. He's like, oh, you're Josh from Loser Kid. Super nice. Yeah, he was super nice, very, very friendly. Yeah. And it's great. Like, we love this, by the way. Like, if you see us at somewhere wearing our hats, we probably are exhausted. We are happy to talk with you, though, because that really is why we go to these things, because it's fun. It's fun interacting with people. We like talking pinball. That's the reason why we're doing this podcast. I didn't realize how much of a toll it was. I'm kind of skipping ahead a little bit. I didn't realize how much of a toll it was until you and I were sitting in on Dwight's Let's Make a Deal. And it just hit me. I was like powering down. And I was like the weight of the whole week was on me. And I was just like, oh, you know, I've got to go to bed because I just. Yeah. Okay. You missed some epic dollar games that we're going to talk about. Yes. Okay. So back to Million Mixer was fantastic. Okay. We got back. I can't remember. Well, we record the podcast. I guess that's what we did after. Yeah. So as a quick recap, it was very Metallica heavy. Yes. Because it was the new thing that we had an inkling that Stern was thinking of doing something. So I'm ecstatic that they were able to show it to us. Really a big recap. The light show is better. The layout is tweaked to be better. the art is better i i i do by the way i'm still getting over my cough that i had six weeks ago so i'm trying to not blow your ears out um the you know the music there are there's more music in this and raymond who is who is the heir apparent in my humble opinion to lyman's legacy of balanced, deep, complex rule sets. He is adding stuff to Metallica. Yeah. And this is not just a repolished... This isn't a lazy, hey, we want to sell a few hundred games thing. They really pushed this as if it were a cornerstone. Yeah. A lot of love and care into it. Yes. Amazing. so so i in and really the the good thing we talked about this the best thing stern does is they make the le worth it yeah okay you can argue okay i can do some of that myself which is true however you're going to get a complete package with the le but the good thing about stern is even if you decide to go with the premium you can get a good alternative yeah to the le you You can still get the speaker lights. You can still get the expression lights. You can still get a lot of stuff. It's not going to be an LE, but it still feels valuable. And that's huge to make sure people still are satisfied regardless of which tier they're going for. So if you have not had a Metallica, I'd buy it. I'd buy this version. It's so good. Yep. Actually, two more things that we covered that day. Just kind of recap now that we've kind of stewed on it and sat on it. I almost said Magic Girl. Not Magic Girl. Alice in Wonderland. Alice, yeah. What did you think?
    10:37
    Now that you've had some time to think about it. So, okay, we did find out, and I did talk to – it's Melvin, right? Yes. Yes, okay. I talked to Melvin, and I asked him about it. I was like, were the upper flippers, like, were they not – were they disabled? He's like, well, you probably got a pass through, which means I was able to get up to the upper play field without earning it. Yeah. and so so when we when we recorded earlier and i was like i don't know what's going on i got up there and i couldn't get so i i i had uh i had unearned accomplishments in the game by getting up there so that that made it uh it still shoots okay it is heavy on on presentation on art on vibe it's it's really heavy on that type of thing it's going to look really pretty in your art room yeah uh i i would still argue that this is still if you only have one game this is not it yeah i agree the other thing too is um i can't remember who said it but now that i've been thinking about back about it i have played raza i have played magic girl this alice in wonderland is probably the best shooting j-pop game after bally williams i just i think that uh now i stew on it and whatnot the shots felt good there was a couple shots i avoided um but overall they felt fine like i wanted to shoot stuff and when it's hard to tell in the video because we posted a video and they're like oh you're shooting shots and they're rejecting no there's like no there's stand-up targets not stand-up there's there's drop targets up underneath that play field and stuff so you're actually hitting like stuff underneath that massive play field the one thing i don't like and i hope melvin takes this this thought process really there should be a give me for the upper play field just so someone gets to play it for the first time right because we both played for a while and never you got the pass through and i never got anything out of it either it's kind of your main feature i mean it takes up like the upper third of the play field there really should be really be a moment where it says, hey, shoot here, and you get to play it once. So that way you get the bug to, hey, I want to get back up there.
    12:56
    That's really my only criticism outside of like, it just needs a little more polish. Overall, though, it feels like a great game. Well, okay. Not for my... I wouldn't say great. It feels like a good game.
    13:08
    Now, go with me on this. If you're old enough, you may actually identify with this analogy. so when deaf leopard came up with hysteria the idea was in mutt lang who produced it he also did back in black he also did shania twain stuff and was married to shania twain for a while he wanted to have hysteria as like michael jackson's thriller where any song could be released as a single which is why it took two years to make okay he spent so much time on it so and they even did like almost like back-to-back tours with that because it was by far their biggest album so that you know they they just did one tour and i don't even know if they unpack their bags they just did it again and they made so much money off that tour so when their next release came out everybody was anticipating this is going to be hysteria 2.0 and it was uh adrenalize the first single was let's get rocked and the second single was making love like a man i'm a man that's what i am not kidding that's the extent of the song okay we all know that they they sing about you know sex and lifestyle all that kind of stuff but when you listen to it you felt like okay the magic's gone like it is not the same quality it's not the same focus. It's not the same presentation they had before. And I would argue this is the Let's Get Rocked version of J-pop, where it's not going to be Theater of Magic. It's not going to be Circus Voltaire. It's not going to be Tales of the Arabian Knights. So if you want a late version of a J-pop game, this is it. I would argue there are better games for your money.
    15:05
    But again, you make the decision i agree and then the other thing i really want to point out i'm i'm addicted to pre-war games now man that okay that's because you won a medal i did win a medal and i was like one of only three people to get a high score on merry-go-round yeah uh you also cheated you brought a magnet and you just kind of moved the ball around no no i actually what it was is the plunger i used the lines and was able to figure out if you want about three three and a half down it popped it right in every time so i never actually played that game because the line was always so long yeah but i i'd actually been i've been looking at pre-war games uh i know jack danger had posted a video years ago about uh some of those pre-war games i've always been intrigued right because they don't use electricity they're all mechanical like the weight of the ball and so one i was really intrigued with was a baseball one where if you got right down the middle you got like you got a run or whatever it was and then actually i played that one that that's that's the one i played yeah that one's fun it was like directly across from the tournament one or the the yeah i played that one he actually had two of them and then they had uh jigsaw was the other one i was looking at because okay that one is like when you line up certain ones you you reveal the jigsaw puzzles and you're trying to actually piece the puzzle together based on where the balls drop fun and really for the price of them uh they're not terrible so anywho i i don't know i would like to have a pre-war game i don't need to have a whole game room full but so we have a wish list so we'll send it out to the listeners so you want a pre-war game and i'm assuming around preferably if you got one out there uh a functional one you don't want a project right correct yeah okay i'd be interested too i don't mind cleaning up but i don't want to like i don't want to repair it yeah um next thing is we we're kind of on the hunt for like a stars are a meteor or something in the early solid state area. Yeah, because you're addicted now to dollar games. Yeah, we'll talk about my success there.
    17:08
    That was day one. By the way, if you do know decent prices and you could bundle a few together, we'd be interested. So let us know. So day two, my father-in-law was with me. He's never been downtown Chicago. He's an architect. So I took him to the architect tour, which I know you guys probably are interested about it since it's pinball but i do want to give one little quick little thing so if you've ever been the observation deck they take you up to like the 96th floor on the skyscraper right and you overlook the the whole lake it's the old sears building right like whatever they're calling it now no it's not it's not the oh what a hancock building i can't remember some insurance company but anywho okay so from there to get down to where the the tours are it's like a 20 minute walk sure and so my father-in-law really wanted a chicago dog so i like devil dogs that's downtown because they have this insanely good hot dog called It's Not a Corn Dog where they take Mexican elote, which is street corn, and they put it on top of your hot dog. Delicious. But he did traditional, right? Like the sports peppers, the tomatoes, the mustard, all that stuff, right? Anywho, so we get the hot dog and stuff, but we have about 15 minutes before we can get to the boat. And my GPS is telling me it's about a 20-minute walk. So we start booking it. We're running the whole way, right? we finally we barely make it to the boat with two minutes to spare he whips out the tickets hands it to the lady she looks at us and she goes this is for the wrong tour you're on this is the wrong boat line you actually need the other boat company that's that away about 15 minutes and we went for a 45 minute boat ride so we get there and i was hoping to time this perfectly so that would be like done and back to expo like two ish if that yeah like one o'clock because you guys had lunch with zach and nicole many with flipping out yep and i really wanted to be there for that and uh anywho so we walked back over to the other boat place and we're like okay when's the next 45 minute grand this is 11 o'clock in the morning yep they're like oh the next 45 minutes at four o'clock in the afternoon oh geez oh and i don't want to let my father-in-law down because i'm like this is architecture you're in chicago like this is what he wanted to see yeah this is and so what's your next tour like it's the 90 minute tour it starts in 30 minutes and you know it's 90 minutes long like well sounds good so we upgrade our tickets it was what it was and we of course had to do the beam but yeah by the time we got back to expo it was like four o'clock okay however i i'll tell you my recap though okay so we got up uh we were kind of hungry so we went to breakfast a little later we slept in a little bit so we went and got breakfast and then we were trying to get with Zach and Nicole a little later but they had an appointment at 2 o'clock so we're driving back from breakfast mind you and they're like hey do you want to go to lunch so like yeah sure so we basically went right back picked up everybody and we went from breakfast to lunch did you not know that i did it's funny here i didn't say now i didn't load up i didn't go crazy i had like i had like some eggs and maybe some toast so it's not like i was crazy but yeah i you know i i was because we didn't realize we were going that early but we definitely wanted to go with with zach and nicole and joel was there and John was there and Craig Bobby and Julie were there. And so that was, I think I got everybody.
    20:45
    I was trying to buy lunch, but Zach and Nicole would not let me. They just picked up the lunch, which again, just shows how great they are because they fed me.
    20:56
    But I got a burger and I ended up like splitting it and handing it out. And it was really good, by the way. So is it Jolly's? Maybe it's Jolly's. So then we got back and then you were coming back. So we went and picked you up. So that's essentially my day. That's what's funny because we had the hot dog at 1030. So I'm like, are you guys hungry? And you're like, no. No, no, we're stuffed. Yeah. So we got to pick up Josh. We're sitting at the train station and we're waiting. And the train comes in and I text him like, is this you? and he's like no we're going to hamilton something so it was arlington park oh yeah arlington heights yeah and arlington heights was actually closer it was like okay well and i and you said no we aren't i'm like because i think i see and then you saw us as you were driving away like oh crap yep so we ended up going picking you up and we came back and then we started expo night That was pretty much that recap. Yeah, I ordered Giordano's, which I've decided I do like Giordano's more than Lou's. Okay. I know. People are going to be upset. Oh, well, it is what it is. That's fine. But the thing I was frustrated with we ordered the pizza I know it takes if you don know about deep dish pizza it takes 30 to 45 minutes to cook right And so I knew this was happening so I timed it so when we got back to the hotel we should be able to pretty much show up and the delivery guy will be giving us our pizza as we walking into the hotel And I was right on my calculations, but I did not take into account that maybe the pizza guy was not going to be as on time as they quoted. so they were supposed to be there by 350 half hour later it's 420 I finally get the call hey we're pulling up I need you to come meet me down in the lobby you can't bring it up he's like no I need you to bring it down to the lobby so we're on the 16th floor I get down there I'm frustrated because I'm hungry it's not the dude's fault but he's like I can tell you're obviously frustrated but and he tells me a story why they can't bring the pizzas up and I'm going to leave it off the podcast because it's not very family friendly uh let's just say an employee was taken advantage of at a hotel oh wow and uh i looked at him like no that's not why i'm upset that you didn't bring the pizza up to the room i'm frustrated that's 30 minutes later you guys didn't say anything like right and he's like oh and then it's really awkward because like the story was the story and it's just like and so i'm like here's a tip i took my pizza and i just went and ate and just oh you cried in your pizza yeah a little bit i will say Do you know how I know that Chicago pizzas take 45 minutes? How? Because when I was in Chicago with my brother 10, 15 years ago, we decided we have the architecture tour starting at 1 o'clock. Okay, let's go get pizza. We're in Chicago. So we sit down and we order pizza. We ordered it at 12.05. Didn't realize it took 45 minutes. So we got the pizza at, not kidding, like 12.47. we immediately tell them get it to go we run to the we eat a piece i think and then run to the l which is their subway but it's elevated uh then we then we starve down another piece of pizza and then we sprinted like six blocks to get to the architecture tour and we got it as basically the boat was pulling away so we got on the boat and my brother and i sat there in like a food nausea coma for about 30 minutes uh yeah so i could have told you that it takes 45 minutes yeah well and i knew it took 45 minutes at least it was gonna take yeah i didn't realize it was gonna take an hour and a half to get my pizza you know what i'm saying chicago chicago pizza is not punctual oh my goodness anyhow so then so what what did we do after that did we do we went to the floor right yeah and uh we started playing saw we went to the homebrews that's where we went yep it's nice i took pictures as we went right yeah that's good so uh i started out on um greatest showman got separated a little bit so we were kind of okay i actually never got to play greatest showman because it was a big line so you you have to tell me about greatest showman okay greatest showman they're both whirlwind so saw and greatest showman are both whirlwindry themes the coolest part i'm showing it on youtube right now they had a banner there you can't really see anything but it's uh it's it's it's an faq right yeah it's an faq uh you know they used a whirlwind like you said yep um did they use unused whirlwind parts it was a project saved from another whirlwind that had been parted out um it talked about the system he's using interesting how much did this project cost about sixteen thousand dollars in parts and material okay i I would have guessed 17, but okay. Okay. How long did it take to complete? Over 800 hours, which they weren't done. They still had more coding to do. Yep.
    26:09
    Who did the art? Jay French was 90%. Alex Cott, 10%. Okay. How many people worked on this? So Jeffrey Jones worked with the artist, designed the basic rules, and built the physical machine. Lisa Sue Jones did the coding, white shows, and rule set. And so outside of like contracting out the artwork, it's really just two people that made this one game, right? And the biggest challenge was doing coding. As far as it goes, it played like Worldwind. Like it was – I mean it's Worldwind. What else? It's a professional play field. That's what's interesting. Yeah, it's a developed play field. So because Saw is a Worldwind as well. And the interesting part is the skill shot. If you know the skill shot on Worldwind, you have to like kind of short plunge. into the drops and that gives you your skill shot. That's what it has to be for any whirlwind, like retheme, whatever. Cause that's how it was on saw. That's how it was on this. I really enjoyed this game. I thought it was very well done. The art looks great. The whole game looked very professional. And I mean, obviously I like, I'm going to give it a little pass on the code, but it needs more meat on the bone. But other than that, but like you have one person coding and they didn't know how to code before doing this. Right. So I applaud them. Like the whole game feels, Hey, didn't it also win best of show in the homebrew area? Yes. So it's doing something right. It's really – it is fantastic. I'm like if you have one critique, that's the only critique is like it needs more code. But then again, it's like she knows that she's working on code. So, I mean, it's not really much of a critique because it's in a – Is this like a husband-wife team or is this a – Okay. So obviously this seems like a passion project for them. Like they are a big fan of Greatest Showman. Yep. Yeah. Very much so. And then the funny part was, is like, um, cause my father, I'll start asking, he's like, can they make these? Like, aren't, aren't like the, the actors going to like sue them for using likeness? Like as long as they're not selling the project. Yeah. For, for nonprofit fan use, you can do it. Yeah. Yes. So anyhow, it just, it kind of made me chuckle. Cause it's something that we know inside the hobby as a community, but like someone's standing outside, like how'd they make this without getting in trouble? You know what I'm saying? Um, And then I played Saw. Holy crap. Saw's great. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Our buddy Glenn. Glenn Wecker did the sound on it. Yeah.
    28:34
    It's great. Yes. Okay. Speaking of someone who's not a horror guy, I'm not. It does nothing for me. Same. However, I did watch Friday the 13th on TV the other day, the first one. And I already knew who the killer was. but um i watched it i'm like it is laughably not not scary like it's like nothing about it is scary you're just like okay here it's i i know it was i know it was groundbreaking for 1981 or whenever it came out but it is it's really interesting but anyway keep going so saw so so i guess this is a question though too is like hey saw saw had five people working on it they had a dedicated artists they had you know glenn is the dedicated sound guy it was a team of people that came together to make this game and honestly this game felt more professional than some manufactured games i played yeah and i'm not going to point anything or point anything out but really honestly the concepts in this game even with it being a redesigned whirlwind the concepts in this game were pretty amazing and it shot really great for a re-theme it just the coding felt great it felt like a full game it just it almost felt like it was in the wrong section right because as you went to play other homebrews yeah if you didn't know you would assume this was a um this was a cornerstone game okay if you if you don't know the difference i will give the huge caveat though is homebrews have the ability to do whatever they want without licensing interference okay so imagine what some of these games that have notoriously challenging licensing like imagine a james bond game with uh being able to use all of the bond assets and even ellen talked about you know some of the challenges with the marvel themes and okay they do a great job they do a great job but like with the hulk the only thing they had was the eye which is why you have that hurry up thing with the eye getting angrier at you yeah and it works they were able to work uh with the constraints but that's always the challenge when you have a homebrew is that you don't have to deal with that so you can do whatever and imagine a star wars if you could use whatever clips you want yeah well and granted with it being a homebrew there is some leniency on stuff is like they have a giant bear trap i've never seen the saw movies yeah like scott said it's not my thing not my thing yeah and so they have this it's called the reverse bear trap i guess in the movie and this thing is on top of the pinball machine and they've got a pneumatic tube hooked up to it with pressured air and the thing opens and closes during certain certain things and then i guess there's also i never saw any of this like i didn't get deep enough in i guess uh but there's also like smoke that comes billowing out of the top of the game too it's just it's very immersive and we were joking about like well if they decide to sell this game to like spooky or whoever how are they going to get those tanks on there it's also not okay it's also not cost effective these games like the bill of material that they have on these games is unlimited it's whatever you want to spend for it yeah so and there's a there are a lot of reasons why passion projects can look amazing and it's it's a combination of licensing and unlimited budget and then the next game i played was uh jake danzig his okay it's a hazard thing Dude, love Jake. It's awesome. He is like the nicest dude. Yeah. And love his dog, Jesse. His dog is super awesome, yeah. Yes, and it was great just having him chill with us. Yep. He had to zip off for a minute, and he didn't come back. Yeah, I saw him around. I always said hi to Jake, said hi to Jesse. They sat next to me. That Dukes of Hazzard is pretty cool. So he took an old Paragon and turned it into Dukes of Hazzard. And it's fun, yeah. It's fun. If you grew up watching the Dukes of Hazzard like I did. you know as a nine-year-old kid i mean it's it's total nostalgia it's great but he also updated it too so you can get multi-ball in it which you can't do with paragon and i got to multi-ball and it was it was very rewarding um a little difficult just because if you've ever played paragon you have to like spell paragon to get some special abilities and this is this is how you had to do it as well with uh dukes of hazard uh next did we play i play led zeppelin did you play led zeppelin yes so this is his game yeah he's a utah guy and he he actually had i believe he had he's been working on this for a long time and uh i don't know if he was he working on this before steve richie did his lids up yes yep actually yeah so his actually has a stairway and it's like a total cool ball like it's called something it's it's called i can't remember exactly what it's called but it's a cool thing because the ladder is these it's it's it's like a you know stepwise escalator so you hit it it drops the target and then you shoot it again and it locks the ball which is impressive considering you're hitting it with velocity and it moves up the ladder and then you repeat that so the coolest thing is loading up the shot with five balls and then you start multi-ball and the you know the escalator goes up the stairway to heaven goes up to the upper play field and it's it's really cool yeah so it looks great steve you did a great job we we did talk about having him on he feels like the game is at least far enough along that he feels like he can talk about you know it with authority so we will we'd love to have have steve on here soon and be able to get more ideas about how he did that and what what his passion project ironically it was another reclaimed monster bash cabinet which which we have we have a another guy here kelly thompson before they made the medieval madness remake he actually got a monster bash play field and he built his own medieval madness did you know about that yep i did yeah he like got all the parts and all the wiring and all that stuff and made his own medieval madness which is bananas but impressive and he's found some really weird gems like i think he ended up with a champion pub cabinet and he was peeling the sticker off of it and there was a monster bash sticker underneath oh that's funny i mean it was vice versa he peeled the monster bash and there was champion pub yeah anywho i'm trying to think what other games borderlands was really cool um did you play borderlands because i The line was always too long. I didn't get to play Borderlands, but I watched it. It had a cool thing, like a labyrinth type thing where the play field moved on you. And you could – not labyrinth, the David Bowie thing. Like the old wood game with the dials where you're moving the play field to move the ball.
    36:01
    And then – I'm trying to think what else was there. I played like a – There were a few others. there was harry potter at least it had the diary it's he it's still very early but it looks cool uh nightmare before christmas yep i played that that was fun i can't remember marks last night but it's a it's a good one um i'm trying to think what else there was some kind of like tattoo terror like tarot reader card game and it was good the problem was that the bottom right flipper wasn't working so it's hard to kind of uh figure that one out um they had overwatch i never had to play that one because it had a long line too but it was pretty impressive from what i saw and then the one that i absolutely just fell in love with it made it because it just hits the nostalgia button so hard that it broke the console was uh tony hawk's pro skater tony hawk's pro skater looked really good it the the shots they are good they still need to be refined a little bit mainly because on tony hawks when you're playing the video game the cool thing about it is chaining shots together yeah but you know it's our tricks and so if they're able to dial it in a little bit more so the shots are just a little smoother you could chain them together but it's it was really good like a cool a couple cool concepts where you shot it and it went up to a vertical play field and there's a flipper there and so it was it was impressive um and the other thing too is nick we we posted a video to our facebook and whatnot so go and check it out but it was kind of a from from cog connections uh did a video on um on tony hawk's pro skater no sorry cool toys yeah there were so many content creators it was amazing cool toys So check out their interview, but he was talking about how he wanted more of a Tony Hawk game first and then pinball second. So obviously you're playing a pinball machine, but he wanted more thematically it to be Tony Hawk. Talk about the skateboard. The skateboard's amazing.
    38:09
    It's like the Avengers spinner, if you can imagine that, the Doctor Strange thing. The way that he had it positioned and everything. Two posts that rotated. what happened was is at the skateboard and then um you could hit spin the disc one way which if you know skateboarding terms it was a front shove it if spent the other way as a back shove it if you shot it underneath the skateboard and spun spun the uh the skateboard around that was a kickflip and then if you shot around it there was a little loop like a 180 horseshoe that brought through the backside middle of the uh skateboard and spin it the other way that was the heel flip and then you could do like variable flips and stuff like that if you could really get good at it the the really cool feature as you were talking about there was there was a vertical play field if you could get up there and to the left there was a ramp that it it came down and jumped off that ramp like you were coming down a big skateboarding ramp and then jumping off into the out lane and if you held up the flipper it would shoot it back into play right like kind of like the dead bounce from uh foo fighters yeah yes and just the whole concept if you've never played tommy hawks pro skater may this doesn't interest you but like all the objectives yeah it was based around like things you would do in the game like collect tape and uh you know collect the letter skate and score certain amount of points it just it was all thematically so on point it just it felt fantastic and like the reason the other thing he was saying too because he didn't want to look polished he wanted to look like the red rail in the game he wanted to look like the half pipes and stuff like that so i i applaud that creative choice right because um it did it did feel a little disjointed as a pinball machine yeah but as a tony hawk themes like we're going this right yeah and so i just i really loved it it was right next to our friends the electric playground so we sell you electric playground robin and alex rob and alex are there alec is there and we get to check out the topper it's amazing and i'm wearing their hat yeah amazing hat uh and it was it was just an awesome experience like they were very grateful for the the episode we were able to do with them and i i really had fun doing that episode it was it was a fun episode to do anywho so it was cool to see that also friday the 13th yeah and you know what okay that also if you didn't know any better you would assume that was a cornerstone game yeah it shot well it i don't i think it was original layout too yeah it was remember correctly so i mean great great games all the way around yeah and so uh and then we went to the by the way the electric playground like go and look at their top like they are really cool in person if you want to get a special topper for your game they they did really did one out if you if you want to get the twilight zone one it's really cool there's like a wire form that takes a ball around it's cool yeah then we went to the 40 years of pinball seminar yep which was interesting because it felt like it was all either previous employees of stern or there was i think there was was there only two people there that didn't actually work for stern at one point larry demar yeah and I can't remember the other person that maybe Bill Grubb. Yeah, probably Bill. But it almost felt like, don't get me wrong, they gave credit due to Stern on keeping stuff alive, but it felt like it kind of focused on other games, which is fine because like Gary Stern did a 40 years of Stern pinball like right after that. Which was, yeah, it was good.
    41:57
    The challenge with it was it seemed to be, I wish they were a little more focused on that episode on that seminar because it was a two-hour seminar and they spent 90 minutes introducing people yeah you got eight people yeah and so it would it would have been great if they're like okay you have three minutes tell us why you're here like what did you do for pinball so that would have been a little nicer if it were streamlined um that was uh it was still still interesting seeing things and uh and this is probably the last time pat is on uh is doing this i'm betting yeah you know so here here was the panel it was larry demar bill grup yep steve ritchie chris granner which actually i think chris is one that once williams was done i think he was done no no actually he did he came back and he did uh simpsons if i remember correctly okay Keith Johnson, Greg Ferraris, which was the head art guy at Stern. He just barely retired. Roger Sharp and Jack Guarneri, which I don't think ever worked at Stern, but he sold a bunch of Stern products. He was actually the biggest dealer. And the host was Pat Lawler. And it just... Like you said, it was too much preamble and not enough amble. You know what I'm saying? But overall, it was good. The thing that made me chuckle and you and i tried to get a picture of this i really wish we i wanted to get a picture but our phones were in our pockets and we couldn't whip and it was at the very end when he was wrapping up yeah so they went they went through our games yeah landmark games so they're going through like space shuttle from like 86 and the reason it's landmark game is because they were so close to closing door that like they were putting all their chips in on space shuttle The arcade industry collapsed in 83 because there was high volume, low quality. Yep. And so when Space Shuttle turned everything around by selling thousands of units, like, oh, we can keep the lights on. And Space Shuttle is kind of what propelled them into the late 80s, early 90s and stuff. And then I'm never going to be able to look at this game the same ever again. But Monopoly, I guess, kept the lights on for Stern. Yeah. Which is funny because it's not revered as really much of a great game. But at that time, I guess it really flipped things around for Stern. Well, okay. I would say it kept the life support going. Life support going to come out with games like Simpsons Pinball Party and Lord of the Rings Wait when did Monopoly come out I thought monopoly was later one no was it oh one oh i will double check but i am i didn realize monopoly was that early i know it's kind of weird to think how we have always lumped in with uh some of the other ones that i thought it was like like later oh wow yeah it was 2001 that is crazy okay i would have lost that bet yeah so i mean we have a little i've never played a monopoly have you ever played monopoly yes and they're kind of quirky uh it's a pat lawler design um i think the thing that kind of throws it off is there's a spinning mini flipper at the upper right that just kind of spins like clockwise the whole time you're playing and i don't know yeah but it's interesting because this is the game that supposedly kept the lights on at stern for them to keep on going and so i know that we give it crap oh chris granter did sound on this one no but it's yeah we're always like oh will of fortune and monopoly ha ha but it's seriously like it it has a place they sold they i mean it's okay the only terrible game is thunderbird so it sold 3600 over 3600 for monopoly which is impressive that is impressive for especially when things are dying um and maybe it's because too they got a boost from bally williams going under yeah shortly before 2000 um it just it is one of those things but the funny part is we're getting we're getting to it now so landmark games right and you have all these games and then you get to 2021 godzilla and we're like oh that's a landmark game and the pictures they put in is a sega godzilla yeah okay it was hilarious it was awesome and i don't think that pat right this is obviously Also, what about Jeff Borg Obviously the slideshow Was not double checked before This is Pat said, hey, this is not professional I don't have anybody This is Pat just doing it himself I'm going to give him a pass It's just me chuckling a little bit And still respecting Everything they brought to the game Yes, just overall it was funny And then that night um i'd kind of stepped out at that point i had to go grab uh my kids i had i had to give them a call and talk to them whatnot i can't remember did we really do anything after i think we maybe went back to the floor for a little bit um well did we um okay did was that when we went up to jj's and uh gary and seth were there no that was the next night My pitchers pretty much end at the 40th pinball. Okay. I don't know if you stay on the floor for a little bit and play some more games. Yeah, I think I went and played some games. And then the next morning we went to Chappie's, which is a nice little restaurant there.
    47:27
    Actually, that's where we went before, too. Oh, really? The same restaurant, yeah. Delicious. I went lunch. We got up late enough. They have the cleanest. Actually, here's a pro tip. If you want to know how clean a restaurant is, one, check out the menus. If the menus are sticky, that's a warning sign. Two, check out the bathrooms. If they haven't cleaned the bathrooms, that's a warning sign. This place was immaculate, and it was really good. They were super nice.
    47:59
    Some nice Hispanic ladies that were running it. It was awesome. Day three started. We went and hit breakfast. after we had breakfast i had been dying to play the new fun house and the pinball company had brought it to expo and so you guys are like what do you want to do i'm like fun house and so i kept finally we went over there and larry demar was there larry demar was in a shirt that was fun it was hilarious because he was wearing the fun house shirt playing fun house and um it just this game became the highlight of my expo and it's funny because like i talked to a gentleman that's been in the arcade industry his whole life uh and i asked him like what are your thoughts he's like it plays like crap and i was like what do you mean he's like there's just something missing from it i'm like what do you mean there's something missing from it and he just he couldn't put his finger on it and and i think it's that same reaction as when cgc started coming out with the remakes when they're like yeah and people were like the flippers are different like okay maybe but really each game plays different like my medieval madness plays differently than my buddy Brock's Royal Edition. Yeah. And I actually like the way mine plays better. And that's the thing. I just had a smile on my face playing this one. It was so good. And I didn't even play the Limited Edition. I just played the Classic Edition, and I'm sitting there looking at that price on this machine. Deal of the show. Hands down, deal of the show. If you guys want a Funhaus remake, go get it. It is. Zach and Nicole, many have one. it is competitively priced oh yeah percent and i just i was so i kept playing and playing you guys ended up was like talking to i think okay we were talking to dominique we were talking to carrie we were talking to travis we were talking to larry and you kept playing and the steal of the show they had one there for six thousand dollars that had like a little defect in the decal. Yeah, it was a crinkle in the decal by the leg. That's it. There was a crinkle in the decal, and they had it there for $6,000. Oh, my goodness. I was trying to figure out how. I joked with them. I said, I'll do it shipped. And they're like, yes. And I was like, shipped. And they're like, no. They're already basically doing that at cost. Yeah. So I'm guessing. They didn't tell me. But Dominic was super nice, by the way. Carrie was super nice. At the end of the show, I asked Carrie, I'm like, who bought it? And it was a local guy who had a Camry. And Carrie is so nice. She's not only an amazing player, an amazing tech. She also agreed to deliver this personally to the guy who bought it at the show. Nice. Class act. yeah and she plays saxophone too so so finally you guys had to kind of pull me away from there you and i went and saw the pin snake guy yeah pepe pepe pepe anthony pepe yep he's got these back in stock you want to buy one they're gonna get them yeah have you tried yours yet i have not tried my snake yet what what makes me laugh though is i bought mine specifically for world cup soccer because world cup soccer is like three layers of plastic ramps yeah and that's the game he had there for you to test out and seriously it it makes it's oh it's so nice i still haven't unwrapped my snake it's it's still in my box upstairs don't make it weird um i'm not gonna make it weird i also bought like the extra micro microfibers which are great because they're cheap it's like i can't remember how much we paid for it was like 20 or 30 bucks three was 10 bucks yeah and i can't remember how much the snake was i want to say you paid 30 or 40 for it yeah something like that So we got that. Yeah, I think it was 40 plus 10. So it was a total of 50. And he's like, you could also just use a tube sock on there. I'm like, okay, that's actually smart too. I didn't really think about that. Yeah. But super nice guy. Shout out to him. And it is, there are very few things where I'm like, you really should buy this. You should buy this. This is, you need it in your toolkit. I know people that hate taking glass off because they don't want to do anything on that glass. I'm one of those people, the less maintenance I have to do, the better. this makes maintenance a breeze i had my kids doing it seriously go check out pinstook it is it's life-changing on the clean okay we also saw um davey from stumbler yes yep and he brought me a okay i i don't know which one it's the one it's the building with the chevron cut out of it so that is the subway building okay that's the subway so i now i have the subway building Now I also have the Tokyo sign and I'm so excited I can't wait to install them Because I'm notoriously terrible About installing mods But Davey was super nice Was around the show the whole time And shout out to Davey That dude is just awesome and you know what It's awesome that Dutch Pinball got him involved With doing the lighting on Alice in Wonderland Yeah Seriously it takes that game To a more professional level It's all about presentation after we hit Pinsnake we hit the JJP booth and I played Godfather for the first time you guys did no you did Elton John were you able to get in on Avatar the show round? okay so I didn't but because I spent so much time on it at the JJP invite thing I felt like I had enough exposure to it to have a good experience with it so I wanted to let the people who were there, I like, I actually played Metallica as Stern, you know, today or Wednesday and Thursday. And so I didn't play it when it came to the floor. Cause there was a lot of people who hadn't played it and want to come play it. So I, I let them get their experience with that. Yeah. It's a really great game and I enjoyed Godfather. It's very unique. Um, the ball paths are very unique cause they keep switching around and whatnot. Yeah. Uh, after JJP, we ran into one. I didn't even know that was going to be there. space hunt space space space hunt because pin sound was there showcasing their their games with pin sound on it and they had a space hunt there yeah what are your thoughts on this game why was this made i'm serious why was it made there's like a the okay there's like a there's like it's super tight the the shots on the left are super tight okay i think zach may have like just been having a good time when he played this game because i i was like okay i i played it it feels competent the the ramp feels very tight like the the thing that you want to do is there is a ramp on the left that goes up to a fireman's pole type thing kind of like junkyard and it was so tight you had to hit it perfectly to get it to go up i played with joel joel got it to go up i didn't but really at that point i didn't care it's this is it's it's okay it's a game um i i don't know why anyone would want to buy it uh there are other games in this category that would be great fits for an arcade and i put looney tunes in that category i put uh ninja eclipse in that category and we we already talked about ninja eclipse right no we haven't okay so we're gonna talk about ninja eclipse yeah and it's fine okay it was okay but of the three which one would you rate a third wouldn't you what what three so you're saying looney tunes looney tunes ninja eclipse and space hunt yeah i actually i'd play it sit fourth behind saw i mean i just okay no i i'm just talking i'm just talking i know in in that in that room i okay i may actually put it fourth anyway and leave three as a placeholder again it just it did nothing for me it did nothing it was pretty it was that pink color it looked professional i just didn't have a good time uh i just didn't have a good time shooting it well and i didn't mind shooting it um i got into the modes the modes were enjoyable ish like it's very much shoot the thing we tell you to shoot yeah okay it is a competent game okay and i would go and play play it on location yeah but it's just not something that i don't know why it was it seems unrefined this seems like there's a there's a few refinements away from making this a fun game here's the thing i think this game is all right it's not my favorite game um it's one of those games that uh it would not be the first on my list to buy but you know i wouldn't mind renting it for a month and just kind of getting some more time on it to understand it a little better okay but overall it just wasn't my cup of tea um but it does intrigue me to see what they can what hexa pinball does next okay it wasn't a fail i the bottom line is even if i'm not a fan of a game i still think they did a decent job in making the game okay it's shot better than any um home pin game that i've ever played oh yeah so i mean it's a professional game it just it didn't connect with me zach now on the other hand zach many loved it so it it you know taste is subjective yep yeah pinball is subjective it really is 100 we also played um princess bright yes well before you get onto that okay Let's talk about Ninja Eclipse because you brought that up. Yeah. I just want to say congrats to Chris Turner, man. This game has flipped 180 from last time I played it. It feels great. I like that they went from the Zizzle cabinet to an actual pinball cabinet. Yep. He's genuinely taken all the feedback from the community. It's paying off because he's starting to sell these. All the ones he had there were sold. They were close to selling out, 100. Yeah. He had stickers on all of them when I was done Saturday night. um so yeah like honestly this is a really cool game and um i'm excited to kind of see where they go from here i i also think it helps too that i feel like they've kind of proven themselves where they have games made they're they're you know we've always said play the game before you buy it unless buy a game that's available don't don't buy promises yes exactly and so i think overall the game felt great the graphics look really good it's a competent company and i I actually thought they had done a lot better than some other companies that were there. So now I will say also the so the guy who did the graphics for it is is a it's a Utah guy.
    59:04
    And I'm trying to get a hold of him because we'd love to have him on. He's he's I think he's the same guy who did the Looney Tunes stuff, too. If I remember correctly, which is why they looked like visually, they look very similar.
    59:17
    But that now that's not slight. I actually – Looney Tunes was a game I had a blast with. So it's probably the first spooky game that I'm like, actually, this is something that would fit just fine in my arcade. Yeah.
    59:34
    So Ninja Eclipse, I would say that was by far the most surprising game of the show. Whereas before the show, I would not have put it on my radar for games to buy. and afterwards, I recommend it. I do. If you want to support a small company that's starting up and legitimately doing it correctly, this is a company that you may want to look at.
    60:03
    And I guarantee, Chris, they're from Texas. So if you're going to TPF, really get your hands on one. If you like it, take one home with you. Yeah, and they really are getting close. If they're not sold out, because it did sound like, yeah, they're getting close to selling out. So yeah, he – and I even asked him like, okay, so like are you cost positive? He's like, no, but we're making progress.
    60:27
    I'm like, good. And that's legitimately – because most – okay, the secret to most small companies, by the way, is that most companies lose money for the first five years because it takes that long to – for a proof of concept before you start turning it around. yep um we then played princess bride like you said i really i'll start off on this one i really like the game uh i felt like it's probably the best p3 so far as in uh presentation i love the theme um i would say it's tied with weird al for me yeah i i think you're right there yeah it's solid it's very solid um i really like the cliffs in insanity that's really cool it's a cool effect they take the ball and they go up the cliff they're dedicating like one mech to just one mode though so it does intrigue me on that here here's the thing with p3 that i'm having a rough time with the ball rog is also one mode yeah true um the thing with princess bride and with all p3s is there needs to be i know that like the bottom two thirds there's not really much you can do to change it because the screen or whatever but when we were talking to uh jerry over these last couple years it made it sound like he you could put floating stuff over the the bottom third well heist has a crane true but i'm talking like if we could get a ramp that ties back in to just a little more action on lower half because the problem is is i know that these aren't the same games they're very very different in presentation wise, but with everything being in that back third, they feel like the same, they visually feel like they're the same game. I know there's a way of incorporated, like, you know, even if it's like rollover targets or something, you know, having some sort of, it does feel like the middle third of the play or the lower two thirds. Yeah. If it feels beautiful presentation wise, but it still feels a little bit like a missed opportunity on some level. Yeah. so overall i liked it josh cougar was kind of mean though dude like not mean as in like a jerk but like i i couldn't finish cliffs in the sanity like i started twice and i choked he's like man that's the easiest mode in the game you can't pass that and i'm like thanks okay well he's right it's it's fine okay he gave you a hard time yeah then you and i went to uh the jaws seminar and got to see the potato mess. It was still fun. I will say it was still fun.
    63:08
    P3, it is one of those things where if that's your thing, it's a good option. The one huge suggestion I will make for P3 though, you need to develop a storage option. You cannot just have these people pull these things out because they are expensive things and put them back in a cardboard box that they shipped in. When Eon Harrow actually Just have it as an option. He has a design for one that he made. So if you're willing to make your own, there is options out there. But I agree with you. Okay, so spend $200. The whole cabinet thing comes with – I would say that would take it to the next level where it feels more like a finished product. I agree. Apple doesn't send you ear pods and says, okay, now keep them in the cardboard box it shipped in. It's shipped with a container. So charge a few hundred bucks, have some sort of shipping container, and keep it as storage so it still looks nice. Yeah. One thing, and I know that maybe this is asking too much. If you're a manufacturer and you feel like we're shortchanging on some of this stuff. Tell us why. Tell us where we're wrong. Not only that, maybe this is too much to ask. Ship us a game. I wouldn't mind borrowing a game for a month or so and getting more hands-on. Because the problem is, yeah, we're an expo, but there's usually lines at these things. So I get to maybe one, maybe two games on this. And we try not to be like the dude in front of me who played like Elvira for 30 minutes and I finally walked away. Yeah. See, Stern and JTAP were smart. They got us out there for John Wick. We got our hands on the game. It's my opinion of it because I got to play four to six hours on a game where it's just – I got a game pretty much dedicated to myself that I just got to play. And once you get 20, 30 games on this, you get a better understanding. Okay, bring us out and show us the game then. That's another way of doing it. Yeah, bring us out to Chicago. It's cheaper than shipping me a game. I don't know. Yeah, you can ship me a game. It's fine. Yeah, pinball company. Fun House sucked. I need you to ship me a Fun House. Yeah. Dominic? Yeah, we need – no, 100%. Okay, we can, but at the same time, this level, this year has been great for them incorporating access to content creators because we can have a more informed opinion on the game with the right environment and the right time. I agree.
    65:37
    So we went to the JAWS seminar. Fantastic. Very in-depth. You can re-watch all these videos. Now you know why the shark doesn't eat the ball. It looks like a giant... It looks like a potato that someone tried to make a potato lantern out of. It looks pretty rough. The gentleman that offered the ridiculous amount of money for that mech I think Harrison Drake's still looking for you. Yes. If someone wants to pay, it was like $15,000. Yeah, something like $10,000 or $15,000. Somebody was like, yeah, Harrison Drake's looking for you. So just hit him up. He wants to sell you that mech.
    66:12
    And then after that, you and I went to JJ from Game Exchange, and we ran into Gary Stern and Seth Dave. Oh, sorry. Before we went there, I do have a little blip. Before we went there, I had to step out of the JAWS seminar. because I had a call and my call wasn't like five minutes long. But as I was walking back in, I ran into Charlie Benante. Is that how you say his last name? The drummer of Anthrax. He was standing there along with Tim Sexton and Wason. And we all got talking and really, really nice dude. It's just funny. It's funny. Like when you go to Pinball Expo you run into these people like Todd McCullough which I hope he having safe travels He was supposed to join us tonight Yeah tonight but he he was he was traveling being like the big star he is yeah he had more important with getting ash uh shout out to todd he going to a game yeah yeah but it was funny because like i'm sitting there and we just get talking about the most random things and it's like he turned he has me listen to this band called clown core if you haven't listened to these guys it's very unique and strange okay i i think that i would probably want to at least try an edible gummy before i listen to that again it's these weird it is the most bizarre thing i've seen in a long time and i can't look at a porta potty the same yeah when you're recording your your music videos in a porta potty you know it's going to be unique right any really nice dude it was it was funny to have some of the conversations that we had like charlie thanks for just down to earth guy and that's what i love about these things you just ran like random mark from creed last year and it was just a casual conversation about guitars and stuff anywho then we went to jjp's jj from game exchange suite doesn't help that one letter off and gary and seth were there and gary was asking people like why do you have why are you spending this much money on a pinball machine and it was kind of funny okay i actually had like okay i had like a 20 minute conversation with him yeah i know it was interesting in talking to him and seth yep and talking about like how to grow like stern army things in areas that don't have a stern army thing so this is a brainstorming thing but this is something that seth is quite interested in in finding ways of of increasing access to pinball in areas that that are low density pinball So now we don't have any definitive answers, and we don't really want to give it away. We'll let Seth talk about it. But we did bounce some ideas off him, and it'll be interesting to see if any of those take. Yep. And then we kind of wrapped up the night with Dollar Games. It was you. So we kind of had a core group this whole show, me, my father-in-law, Jeff, you. We had Craig Bobby from the pinball show. So if you haven't heard Craig Bobbity or his rendition of the Bond theme, you need to go check that out. And then Julie Talbot had joined us. She's kind of become part of our friend group over the past couple of years. And then we kind of have people in and out. But that was kind of the core group that went and played dollar games. And the free play area was amazing. I think like a lot of awesome. And you know what? To Rob's credit, they all worked. Yep. I think there was only like five that weren't working Okay there were a few but for the most Part they were all working And it looked nice I remember a couple years ago when we Went and the free play area looked like The land of like Misfit toys it looked like the pinball Hall of fame But no these were all In working order and it was fun It was so fun to actually see The games now what Josh, the next night, he actually missed. We were playing dollar games, but we actually made a modification to the rules. So you still got the $3 or $4 or whatever for winning, but the penalty for losing was you actually had to pose like the back glass, and we got to take a picture. And so if you think of all the ridiculous back classes out there, it totally changed the dynamic of dollar games in that it was nice to win. You liked it, but you really didn't want to lose because it was really it was public shaming at that point. Yes, but it was kind of funny. It made me feel good about myself when you guys were like, I won the first three games. You guys like Josh, if you don't knock it off, we're kicking you out of the group. OK, but it was very fun. It was the highlight probably had to be dragon. That game is so ridiculous and so random. Yeah, it's hilarious. There's like five like cobra targets that you have to hit and go down. And the back glass is awesome. If anyone has like a spare dragon back glass. Oh, okay. I didn't tell you about my story. So I did go to the Stern tour. Okay. So I went to the Stern tour. I actually didn't have a ticket but apparently the tickets were only for the bus so we just drove there and hopped through and at the very end of the tour I bought a shirt and I bought it was a neon you know the neon Godzilla thing just think of like the Godzilla 70 but with the neon thing and I was super excited because they only had them at the factory they're going to be available later online but they only had them at the factory for this thing. And I got it home. And the next day I'm like, I'm going to wear this. I put it on and it felt like I was squeezing, like, you know, I was being suffocated by like one of those shapewear things. I'm trying to, I put it on like, oh my gosh, what is this? So I wear, I typically have a t-shirt underneath my t-shirt. So I typically try to buy some of the shirt's bigger so it'll accommodate that and so i i usually buy like an xxl if i'm just if i just want to fit but not too tight and i put on i looked down it was a large i'm like they gave me the wrong thing i think it's like in my in my thought process it's like oh it's an xl and they just went to the bin over and got it and so i was like ah crap so i you know i texted zach sharp and i was like hey just is anyone coming over from the factory today because they gave me the wrong thing he's like no let me look at this thing so we uh i i just said no it's fine i'll just go down to the floor and i'll swap for and you know a different shirt so we ended up i i swapped for a different shirt and it was they were super nice about it and they got that and so i ended up getting a jaws one so it says jaws and on the back he goes stir stir stir so you know it's kind of and like that. No, no. But I found out Julie texted me today and she said, I figured out the mystery of the forgotten shirt. She bought the same shirt.
    73:20
    Hers was a large. Mine was a double XL. So she ended up with yours, didn't she? So I actually still have the, so I just paid her for the shirt. I'm like, okay, when it comes online, you can go, go ahead and buy it. But I ended up with two extra shirts from Mr. which was hilarious. is but that was my uh my my stern uh shirt story which is funny though because i bought a hoodie for my son last year we asked for extra large and we didn't realize it till after we got home but it was a medium yeah so when you go on the stern tour and you buy stuff make sure what you buy is the right size that was my fault i i grabbed the wrong shirt it just happened that julie and i bought the same shirt because we were like we were in the same bus car load yep um okay uh we didn't do pinball olympics this year uh pinball olympics are always a blast they i was pretty exhausted though because i only had really two full days and i really stayed up um late every night yeah uh the on sunday actually their saturday i went to bed like two in the morning and then we got up at like four in the morning okay so why did you you like left without us we we were getting up and we thought we were taking you to the airport what happened why did you go early so we well Well, our flight was an hour before you guys. Really? Yeah. What time?
    74:38
    We were a little bit before 7. Oh, okay. So that's why. Because we got up and we're like, hey, we're ready to go. And you're like, oh, we already left. Okay. Yeah. And you guys hadn't even left yet. And you did actually get to the airport and through security. And we still had another 30 minutes before we started boarding. So it probably would have been fine. We could have, but you wanted to be safe. Okay. Yeah, I wanted to be safe. So especially where I fly from Chicago into Phoenix and then Phoenix flies into my home to Vernal. And on Sundays, there's only one flight from Phoenix into Vernal. So if I get stuck in Phoenix, I'm there for a full 24 hours. Yeah, you don't want to mess with that. And so, anywho, yeah, that's why we kind of bailed.
    75:20
    Oh, quick shout out to Tony Scoots, Scoots Adaros. Thanks for bringing me two dozen cannolis. I was like, I need some cannolis. If you bring them to me, can I buy them for me? He's like, yeah, don't worry about it. So he brought me two dozen cannolis. Dude was so nice. Hey, did you get them home? Because I totally like, like you went to bed and I totally forgot to come up and eat one. Yeah. I took them all home with me. I was so excited to surprise my wife with scoots cannolis. And she's like, do these have almond in them? And so I'm texting Tony. Is she allergic or she doesn't like the taste? She's allergic. Oh, they all have allergies. Definitely allergic. They all are. And I'm like, do these have almond in them? And he's like, a little bit. And he's like, I wouldn't chance it, but you might be safe taking it. So she actually took a Benadryl and ate the cannoli and thought it was delicious. Okay. And that was 24 hours later. They are delicious. Yeah. We went through 20 cannolis in three days or something like that. It was great. These were minis. These aren't the full-size system. Yeah. But yeah, they were fantastic. Okay, grand take – so we're at 80 minutes. So grand take-home raps. What are you thinking of, Expo? Actually, give me – just give me a one-minute synopsis of Let's Make a Deal. Oh, okay.
    76:42
    Because I bailed out halfway through because I – You know, it's – okay, it's fun. I was getting so tired toward the end. And Dwight really wanted people there. So it was like a let's make it. Do you want behind box one, box two, box three? But it was fun. He pulled people up, and everybody had tickets. At the very end, when they were going for the final round, we didn't get – we knew it was the final round, and I was tired. And so I actually left at that point. But I felt good. We supported Dwight. He was there. Actually, I came up at the very end because I needed to get a hat for someone. and uh um it's dave uh he he bought a hat like last year and we gave hall grin yeah yeah we made a trade we didn't he didn't necessarily buy we made a trade okay all right trade so i brought it back and then dwight's there's like oh i didn't call you i'm like dwight it's fine like i it's he's like you didn't get anything like it's it's fine it's fine i i'm glad people got you know other people can get experiences i don't need i don't need stuff we're good yeah so that that was fun um okay we uh we do have a funny story about hats though so we met an awesome guy named george gomez yes there's there's another george gomez so so josh thought that it was george gomez from stern and so josh gave george gomez from stern two hats okay no here but here's the thing you tell the story you tell the story okay so we did our form through facebook through google docs right yeah and someone accidentally sent the same form twice it was george gomez i looked at the email i'm like well this isn't george's business email well this is maybe maybe it's personal yeah and so i i message george since we have his number and i'm like george i got your hat order but it came through twice you want one or two and he said two and i'm like and the small medium is fine right and he's like yeah that works great and it's funny because the whole time because i'd messaged george gomez with stern yeah oh so you you had even contacted george yeah so he knew the hats were coming everything so i i made specific you know made sure to set them aside and everything we we get to stern on thursday for the metallica stuff i give him his hats he tries them on they say they fit great he's very happy with them and he zips off because we've got people coming in and out yeah yeah yeah it's busy yeah well was it friday or was it saturday it was at the mixer it was at the was it at the mixer come at the mixer he's like wear my hats yeah he's like hey i'm no it was when we're playing at j the jjp booth that's where it was oh okay it was not the mixer it was the jjp okay because i talked to him at the mixer like i came he came and talked to me the mixer he's a and by the way george gomez is also a cop from reno yes in law enforcement and so he like he's like talking to me at jjp's booth and he's like oh scott says you have the hats and i'm like yeah and he's like you have some for george gomez i'm like yeah i gave them to george gomez at stern and he's like no no i'm george i'm george yeah and i'm laughing because i'm like oh you got like george gomez's tag like how'd you pull that off i'm like gomez actually signed stern gomez signed cop gomez's and so i thought he was joking he's like no i'm really i'm really george gomez yeah i oh i'm well this feels really awkward because small medium is not a very common size and so it didn't make any extra and so yeah it just okay so george we are getting we're getting your ass to you so i've already got an order so i've been keeping contact with him yeah okay overall thoughts expo was fantastic i love that there's enough space to move yep uh yet uh it still feels very homey um this is the biggest convention and it shows right Like this is the only place you're going to rub shoulders with, with, um, these, all these industry types along with, uh, celebrities and stuff like that. And I know that there's people going down to Texas pinball festival and whatnot, but like seriously, if you're making a homebrew and you want to break into the industry, make your calling card and go to expo. Um, there are so many people that are willing just to sit down and listen to what you have to say. and it just overall i love going to the show because no other place would i be able to play uh alice in wonderland along with uh space hunt and and um ninja eclipse and fun house and it just seems like and the lines were were relatively good so long as they had enough games there oh yeah like even even the p3s they only had like three games there but it's still on lines were only for the limited like one or two versions of that game for the most part you could get on almost any game yeah within about 15 minutes at the longest of a wait but i overall fantastic show i enjoy going every year it just it's kind of one of my like that's what i'm gonna do ever as long as i can keep keep up momentum and whatnot i feel like i'm always going to be there and um yeah i just overall fantastic show rob berg fantastic to all those that that are involved in it they just it's such a great show what's your takeaway scott um okay i would say exhausting uh i felt that it was a little bit like going to disneyland and i didn't ride all the rides yeah like i i felt really that and i stayed up late most of the time and you know what it was kind of fun to check out a little bit and go and do dollar games and just meet some people talk with friends i i feel i feel bad that i couldn't make it to some of the seminars because i really was either just tired or i needed a break or i had some other obligations so i didn't you know there were some behind the scenes on games that i didn't get to and i feel bad about that i'm hoping to go back and watch them if we can find them because it would be nice to get a little more behind the scenes on some of the games um but i i felt like i i was busy the entire time and i still didn't see everything so so it's great i agree with josh if you're really interested in being in the industry go and talk to the like go and talk come and and talk to industry people they are very passionate about what they do and they're very friendly too i i still have been overwhelmed by even in the short amount of time that we've been doing this podcast how welcoming and and willing people are to talk about their work as long as you know it's released obviously yep exactly so it's it's great um okay um game of the expo for me yeah probably fun house i'm not gonna lie i was shocked at how solid it was and how good it played i i'll put metallica there i know it's a little unfair because it's a 13 000 game and it's a proven game but the way that they reinvented that game was impressive incredible you're talking about the premiums 9700 or whatever and i guarantee you can probably get one for 95 yeah okay i'm talking to the le okay um however i will say the steel of the show hands down is funhouse yeah um that is that is a total value for like biggest bang for your buck game and that is that is coming from someone who's typically not a huge lawler layout fan we had so much fun on that game and it looks amazing what the pinball company did with that game is amazing and if they are taking the torch and doing the next version of the remakes i say i'll go go all for it no i mean no it sucks if you want to prove me wrong pinball company yeah send me a game and let me evaluate it yes yes exactly or zach and nicole many at flipping out pinball because they also sell it so okay in all sincerity this is this is a great game it's absolutely a great game and it's they were able to really do give chicago gaming company a run for their money yeah they really did and that's that's not easy considering the high bar that chicago gaming company set with their four well one of the big concerns is it's because it's funny because like really quickly like we played abba and we've played um queen and it's just it's funny because like they're using planetary pinball parts so these are william design parts yeah and so it's funny how much different yep a game that isn't william parts versus what is and and they they both feel like solid games but it just feels like the williams recreation they were solid like it was i had a little extra effort moving the cabinet around when i was trying to to a nudge and stuff like that versus a stern. And so this, they are solid games. And yeah, really, I, I'm, I'm tempted to get one, put it down here. I really, I would really, that's like, seriously, if I had the means to get that fun, that one that was for six and I had the means I would have brought it home with me. Yeah. But you know, they kind of frown on those on a carry on luggage. So yeah, they don't really fit in an overhead compartment. And I think if I checked it, they could have put it on uh underneath yeah you can try oh my goodness um yeah all right wrapping it up yeah seriously i i just went and just looked at their website and just seeing that yeah it's that's crazy yeah the classic addiction the classic edition the msrp is 7499 and that's That's a deal. It is. Yep. It is. So if you want, like I said, just contact Zach and Nicole many. Tell them Loser Kid sent you their way. Yep. Maybe they'll even throw on a shirt for you or whatever. Maybe. All right. If you want to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. We're also on Facebook, Instagram, X, Threads, Twitch, YouTube, all at Loser Kid Pinball. silverball swag.com slash lose your kid. I know that some people want to support us. There was one gentleman that was very nice, came up, handed me a 50. I was like, I don't do social. I don't do this or that. He's like, I listen to your guys's podcasts. That's like his advanced technology. I do. And I want to support you guys. Here's this. And I was like, Oh, thanks. And I'm like, you don't like, you don't have to do that. And he's like, no, I want to support you guys. If you do want to support us, one way you can do is through silver ball swag.
    87:46
    They're awesome shoes. So I got so many comments on the Vans, which I didn't think I would, but they look great, and they do look retro cool. Well, I felt like you get something for supporting us as well. Not only do you support us, but you get shoes out of our shirt or jogging pants or whatever. So you know what, Scott? I think that's all for us. Yeah. One last word. I want to hear your experience at Pinball Expo. So shoot us your experience and what you guys liked and what you didn't like, and we can certainly give that back to Rob and see how we can fix it. But huge thumbs up for the tournament for me. Or, sorry, for the event for me. And I didn't even play in the tournament again. And that was like a total side thing that was going on. Like, the Triple Drain guys were all in that tournament. Yep. Yeah, shout out to Joel, Travis, and Tom. It was fun to hang out with Travis late on Friday night, even though he had to work early in the morning. Yep.
    88:38
    Monica, it was great to see you again. It's just like going back to, like, a family reunion. It is. I mean, and some of those people I consider closer than my family. because some of my family is kind of weird. Anyhow. All my family is weird. Anyway. Yeah. Love you guys. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you in two weeks.