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Episode 79 – We Enter The Matrix

Slam Tilt Podcast·podcast_episode·analyzed·Mar 1, 2018
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Keith Elwin discusses his pinball design career, tournament dominance, game collection, and philosophy on competitive play.

Summary

Keith Elwin, legendary Stern Pinball designer, joins Slam Tilt Podcast for an in-depth interview covering his game collection, tournament history, design philosophy, and personal reflections on competitive pinball. The episode ranges from his early arcade experiences in the 1970s through his current role at Stern, his creation of Pinball 101/102 instructional videos with his brother, and his dominant competitive record (currently ranked 4th in IFPA despite retirement). The conversation also touches on favorite games, the appeal of match-play tournaments, and his recent relocation from California to Illinois.

Key Claims

  • Keith Elwin is currently ranked 4th in IFPA rankings despite being retired from active tournament play

    high confidence · Ron Hallett states this directly during the interview as a current fact

  • Keith has a perfect winning percentage against every player he's played more than twice in matches and tournaments

    high confidence · Ron Hallett presents this as a statistic; Bruce Nightingale clarifies it's a winning record, not perfect record

  • Pinball 101/102 instructional videos took almost four years to produce

    high confidence · Keith states 'I think it was almost four years' regarding production time

  • Keith prefers match-play tournaments (like Pinberg format) over weekend-long 'pump-and-dump' tournaments due to boredom

    high confidence · Keith explicitly states 'I was bored out of my mind at Indisc by day three' and expresses preference for Pinberg format

  • Keith won Elvis at 2004 Pinball Expo as his first tournament victory against John Cosmo in finals

    medium confidence · Ron recalls watching Keith win Elvis tournament in 2004; Keith confirms winning Pirates of the Caribbean tournament with long finals game against Cosmo

  • Keith owns approximately 40-50 pinball games total, with most in California and several in Chicago after recent move

    medium confidence · Keith estimates '50? 40?' and confirms most are in California with only 6 games currently in Chicago

  • Keith is highly skilled at finding game bugs and exploits during testing

    high confidence · Bruce jokes 'Every time I walk in, the line is off' and Keith describes a specific game-killing bug in Secret Service he discovered

  • Secret Service has a game-killing bug involving dual super spinners that produces 2.5 million points

    high confidence · Keith describes the specific exploit in detail: rolling right inlay and shooting left super spinner creates dual spinners

Notable Quotes

  • “I was bored out of my mind at Indisc by day three. I just, yeah. I've gotten to the point where I really love match play tournaments... but these weekend-long pump-and-dump things, by the time finals rolls around, I'm over it.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~mid-episode — Reveals shift in Keith's tournament preferences and declining interest in traditional multi-day formats, explaining reduced competitive participation

  • “To win at pinball is to lose at life.”

    GQ Magazine Reporter (quoted) @ ~later in episode — Famous headline from 1998 GQ article about Papa tournament that became cultural reference point for pinball community

  • “I grew up playing were still there, you know, 15 years later... it was kind of a piece of your childhood, so it was still kind of cool for me to play them.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~early episode — Explains emotional connection to early solid-state games and arcade nostalgia that shaped his design philosophy

  • “I am a huge fan of the infancy of Stern slash Data East so like Laser Wars, Torpedo Alley, Robocop, Monday Night Football... the games were so over the top campy that it just put a smile on your face.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~mid-episode — Reveals Keith's appreciation for often-dismissed Data East/early Stern era games, positioning underrated titles as worthy of respect

  • “I love the set schedule. I love, you know, when and where you're going to play and how you're going to regulate your breaks... standing in line for an hour to play a game, and then standing in line another hour to play a different game, and then doing that for three days... I just I'd rather be outside.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~mid-episode — Articulates specific structural preferences for tournaments and competitive format design that could influence industry event planning

  • “It's very hard. It's very rare. And it's just a great game. Multiball. Great bonus meltdown... I like games that are different. It's the all-ass game. It's the most ass ever on a game.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~later episode — Expresses design philosophy valuing mechanical uniqueness and challenging gameplay over theme or popularity

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonRon HallettpersonBruce NightingalepersonStern PinballcompanyPinball 101productPinball 102productPapa DukepersonJim Belsitoperson

Signals

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Keith Elwin expresses strong preference for Pinberg-style match-play tournaments over traditional weekend multi-day formats, citing boredom and fatigue with lengthy events. He's actively participating in Chicago Pinball League (3-hour match-play sessions) instead of major touring events.

    high · Keith: 'I was bored out of my mind at Indisc by day three... I love match play tournaments... I'd rather be outside.' Also: 'I had a blast at the Illinois State Final. That was fun. It was over in 10 hours and done.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Keith Elwin has relocated from Southern California to Chicago (Park Ridge, 15 minutes from Stern), bringing significant portion of game collection. Still maintains storage location in Los Angeles with approximately 10 games and retains business/personal ties there.

    high · Keith confirms move to Park Ridge near Stern; maintains games in both locations; mentions weather shock from hiking in California to humid Chicago

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Keith indicates declining engagement with traditional competitive pinball despite elite ranking. Attributes reduced tournament participation to boredom with format, not skill decline or retirement necessity—suggests structural tournament design is limiting factor.

    high · Keith: 'I was bored out of my mind... that's one of the reasons I'm not playing as much as I used to.' Also: 'Not bad for retirement, huh?' despite being ranked 4th

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith explicitly values and defends 'sleeper' games from Data East/early Stern era (Laser Wars, Torpedo Alley, Robocop, Monday Night Football) as superior to mainstream classics, citing their campy appeal and mechanical uniqueness over theme licensing value.

    high · Keith: 'I am a huge fan of the infancy of Stern slash Data East... the games were so over the top campy that it just put a smile on your face'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.354

0:00
Each of you is here with a longing to share your feelings, to access your vulnerability. Michael, why don't you start us off? I guess I'm really just feeling nervous.
0:12
I guess I'm nervous that you'll all think I'm a big jerk. But, like, as soon as someone really sees me, they'll know how stupid I am. Okay, let's stop right there. Let's have a reality check. Does anyone think Michael's a jerk for what he just shared? Uh, yeah. Yeah, me too. Jerk. Oh, God. Now, hang on. Butthead, perhaps you see a part of yourself in Michael. Yeah. My butt.
0:41
And Beavis, is that what you feel? Beavis feels himself. Shut up, Butthead. Skip your ass. Coming to you from beautiful upstate New York, this is the Slam Tilt Podcast, the show about all things pinball. I'm your host, Ron Hallett, here with my co-host, Bruce Nightingale. Howdy ho, neighbor-oskies. Hello, Bruce. Hi. We're recording on a different day. We are. We've changed our schedule for the one. Oh, you're not serious. We got him here? I am serious. I'm serious. Well, we had Darth Balls on, so now you have to get higher up in the chain. And now we have the one. Good evening, Keith. Good evening. How are you? So is it true, according to Darth Balls, you've discovered the secret of, what, eternal life or the Force ghost, whatever it is? I think that's what he said. Yeah. Did you hear his clip? No. When he said he was Darth Falls, we must find the secret. It was the Emperor. Like, we must find the secret of whatever by the One. He dubbed in the One. The One. So you are. You have the power of the Force Ghost. Oh, okay. You know, I just got to say that you guys keep saying you want to have me on, and Bruce keeps saying, I keep reaching out. I think I heard from him once, like two years ago. I suck. Come on, admit it. I suck.
2:17

  • “We didn't work very hard on it, but... it took me like an hour to get that on film. I was so frustrated... Looking back, there really was no hard part. It was just finding the time to do it.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~mid-episode — Reveals creative challenges in producing instructional video content and the complexity of filming skill shots

    • Chicago Pinball League
    organization
    Tommy Soxtonperson
    IFPAorganization
    Pinball Expoevent
    Elvisgame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Secret Servicegame
    Cyclopsgame
    Cheetahgame
    Big Gamegame
    Ron Schusterperson
    Lyman Sheetsperson
    Neil Schatzperson
    Mollyperson
    Adam Lefkoffperson
    Martinperson
    John Cosmoperson
  • ?

    collector_signal: Keith maintains dual-location collection: approximately 40-50 games total split between California storage (primary bulk) and Chicago residence (6 specific games including Batman 66, Walking Dead, Quicksilver). Recent PODS move reflects active collecting/relocating behavior.

    high · Keith: 'I have 50? 40?' and lists Chicago games; mentions PODS move and ongoing California storage

  • ?

    product_concern: Keith identified critical game-killing bug in Secret Service (Data East): rolling right inlay while shooting left super spinner triggers dual-spinner exploit generating 2.5M points, forcing him to divest from the game. Suggests design testing oversight in vintage titles.

    high · Keith describes exact exploit: 'if you roll over the right inlay and shoot the left super spinner, don't flip... it will kind of alley pass itself up the left end lane... you get like 2.5 million of spin'

  • ?

    restoration_signal: Emerging aftermarket solution for light plate issues in Big Game and Nine Ball: custom WPC-style light boards available in three-packs as retrofit fix. Keith mentions discovering this solution and applying to Big Game collection.

    high · Keith: 'there's a guy that makes light boards for big game... they're basically like light boards like you'd find on a WPC game... he makes them for nine ball also'

  • ?

    content_signal: Pinball 101/102 instructional video series continues generating significant viewership and positive community impact years post-release. Brother's distribution (still ordering cases despite digital availability) suggests ongoing demand for physical media despite DVD obsolescence.

    high · Bruce: 'a lot of people still watch it' and 'my brother keeps saying, yeah, I ordered another case... I ordered another case... It's crazy'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Chicago Pinball League has significant waiting list (mentioned as 'big one') indicating strong local interest. Spillover effect: Chicago Pinball Mafia formed as alternative league after CPL filled up; both organizations now have waiting lists.

    high · Bruce: 'There's a waiting list. Oh, yeah. Wow. Holy crap. There's a big one for that league.' Keith confirms CPL participation and Mafia league formation as CPL alternative

  • ?

    historical_signal: Early 1990s pinball had only two major tournaments annually (Wild West Show in Phoenix, Pinball Expo in Chicago), creating year-long pressure on players and limited competitive opportunities. Keith entered competitive scene in 1993 when Twilight Zone launched.

    high · Keith: 'There was only two tournaments... one in Phoenix, the Wild West Show, and the Pinball Expo in Chicago... if you lost, you had to wait until next year'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Light plate electrical tape solution (original factory approach on Big Game/Nine Ball) validated retroactively as effective design, prompting modern WPC-board-style replacements. Shows evolution of component design philosophy from improvisation to engineered solutions.

    high · Keith: 'electrical tape actually worked better... it usually worked better than a lot of the other things that companies have tried'

    • I really do. He won't come on. I've tried numerous times. Is this true, Bruce? Have you been lying to me? He's lying, Ron. He's lying.
    2:27
    I love it. Throw me running in a bus in two minutes and 30 seconds. Excellent. Every time I hear an episode, you're saying you're trying to get me on. I was like, he's lying, Ron. I'm screaming at my computer.
    2:41
    But we do have the one. Now, if you're on now and listening for tidbits from where this person works, Turn off the episode right now and go watch some Golden Girls, because that's all. That's all. We're talking about Keith doing his past, his games, his game likes, everything else. Current stuff, he's employed. Enough said. Yes. What's the game you're working on now, Keith? Oh, wait a minute. Sorry.
    3:10
    Okay. Kim Sexton World? Oh, Sexton World. Is the Wayne's World clone? Yeah, it's great. It's Rant-o-Plenty.
    3:20
    Rant-o-Rama. Yes. So, first, we know your love of older games, which is great. We know you love all games, but, I mean, you do love older sterns and older valleys. I have a Quicksilver in my office.
    3:38
    Oh, in your office. So it made its way to Chicago. Yes, I brought some of my games out finally. Excellent. So how many games do you actually have, Keith?
    3:49
    Altogether? Yeah, we'll just go for the whole Monty. Oh, man. I don't know. 50? 40? Holy shit. The problem is, most of them are in California, so. Yeah. So how many are out in Chicago?
    4:03
    I have my Batman 66. I have Walking Dead. I have Mars Trek. I have Nineball. I have Sea Witch, Quicksilver. yeah that's it there you go that's a good varying set of games including Mars Trek love Mars Trek yes Mars Trek makes a great table oh god great furniture okay great furniture it's the coat rack there you go yeah compared to the other games it doesn't give much love oh no Sonic love it's a great game I like it but yeah how hard was it get all the games out to Chicago that you have out here already? Was it when you moved the moving truck, you were able to get a couple on, or did you? Yeah, whatever I had room for, I squeezed on. I had a pods unit come out. Oh, there you go. But I still have the location in Los Angeles, so I still have the bulk of my games out there. Oh, that's cool. So is that 1982 or 82, something like that? 1982, yeah.
    5:09
    And you have how many games there? Yeah, I'm not sure any given day, but probably 10. Okay, cool. And then, of course, Molly has, I think Molly has the bulk of the games there. Yep, she's done really well with keeping pinball alive in L.A. She has quite the eclectic collection. Yes. She likes everything. Yes, yes. She's very funny and very outspoken. I like that. Oh, yes. Very, very outspoken. You're from Southern California. You're now in Chicago. How are you liking the weather? Oh, it's awesome.
    5:48
    So I was an avid hiker in California. I mean, every weekend I was out hiking the mountains. So, yeah, it's a bit of a system shock. But, yeah, okay, it sucks.
    6:03
    Don't worry, the summer is going to be really, oh, that's right, heat and humidity. Yeah, you've got a week in spring and a week in fall, and it's either cold or humid, the other two weather variants. Yeah. So let's see. All the hiking, that explains the calves' feel.
    6:22
    Sure. So do you still wear shorts like every day, even though it's raining? Yeah. Everyone laughs at me. I'm outside literally two minutes a day. That's going to my car and going from the car to work and reverse that and way home. So why would I wear pants all day? It doesn't make sense. Makes sense. Now, I don't know what your commute is in Chicago. How was your commute in L.A.? Oh, it sucked, yeah. Okay. So is it better now in Chicago? Yeah. I'm in Park Ridge, which is about 15 minutes from Stern. That's not bad. That's not bad at all. I mean, my job.
    7:01
    Yeah, your job. Here's a funny story. At the expo, they always have the CERN factory tour, and I swear to God, every year, whatever bus company they hire, they never know how to get to the factory. And it's so weird. It's like you would think they would just put their GPS up, but they never have a GPS. They're on the phone asking directions. Yeah, it's not hard to find. It's right by the airport. Yeah. I think the one year, Bruce, you talked the guy to the factory. That was hilarious. Yes. Yeah, I actually pointed and ran up to the front of the bus and actually said, okay, make a right here, make a left here. Who gave you your tour? I've had a lot of people. I've had Steve do it one year. I've had Dwight do it one year.
    7:45
    Those are the two I've had do it. Yep. Dwight and Steve. And then I had the CFO one year. Oh, okay. Yeah, so that was about four or five years ago. So, yeah. But I haven't been back in three years. I'm so... I'm missing Chicago. So you haven't seen the new... No, I have not. I have not seen the new factory yet. Hopefully, the next time I go out there, I'll know some people out there, maybe, you know. Yeah, yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah. Where they make airline parts. Yes, at that factory. Yes.
    8:18
    We're not talking about any of this, Bruce. Come on. No, we're not. I'm talking about an airline factory. Oh, okay. That's great. Yes. God, nothing else. Okay, Keith. So, what is your favorite genre of game? So you would say, you know, is it early Solid State? Is it alphanumeric? Is it newer?
    8:36
    It is definitely early Solid State because that's what I grew up playing. So I used to walk down to the Sears Arcade back when they had one, and I'd play Frontier, Firepower, Hot Tip, and pretty much anything that had a free credit on it. But those are the ones I played the most. That's cool. Is that the earliest you remember playing games, like, yeah, at that arcade? Or do you remember? Yeah, pretty much. I remember playing Galaxy a lot, Stars, Globetrotters.
    9:05
    It's kind of a big blur. You know, the rotations didn't vary that much, so the games I grew up playing were still there, you know, 15 years later. Oh, wow. Diner need a repair, but, you know, it was kind of, you know, a piece of your childhood, so it was still kind of cool for me to play them. You're also known for, with your brother, making Pinball 101. Ah, yes, and 102. two. And, well, we haven't seen 102. What the hell is 102 coming out? Sorry. Sorry, I guess. It's got to be nice. It's got to be nice. It's been out forever. It's just got it got chopped up in pieces and put on YouTube. Ah.
    9:40
    Most people have watched that or seen that, and it has been a great help for a lot of players. How long did it actually take to make that?
    9:49
    I think it was almost four years. Oh, wow. Holy crap. Yeah. Well, I mean, we didn't work very hard on it, but... What was the hardest part? Well, keep in mind, back then, nobody was filming gameplay. Nobody had come up with camera rigs or ways to do it. So my brother would come over to my house. He was like, hey, I got this rig. Let's try this. And then crashed under my big game back glass. I was like, nope, that's not going to work. And then he came back a couple of times, and he came up with the tourney camera rig. And, you know, that made it a lot easier to film. Granted, he still had a camera in front of me for most of the time, so when I'm trying to show some of these skill shots, I'm standing way further back from the game than I usually do, which is, if you haven't tried it, try it. It really throws you off.
    10:37
    What was the hardest part you thought about that, besides, you know, sitting back? Was there any, like, wow, this is really difficult, or was it just trying to get the shots that you wanted to do as easy as it looked on the video? Like, what, the five-way shadow combo versus seven-way or whatever? Oh, my gosh.
    10:55
    You know what's funny is I had pretty much gotten to the point I could do that maybe 25% of the time. But, of course, you put a camera in front of it, it took me like an hour to get that on film. I was so frustrated.
    11:09
    That was definitely tough. But looking back, there really was no hard part. It was just finding the time to do it. plus you did all the graphics all the artwork all the art the animation that's on there yeah yeah I mean again I didn't spend a ton of time on that I had a yeah a flash player and it's like yeah what can I do in two weeks that's basically most of that was done in two weeks so I thought it was really good I thought it was quite funny oh thanks I actually haven't watched the movie in so long I don't even remember what it is oh my god What was the character's name again, Bruce? Oh, God. It wasn't Tommy, because Tommy ended up in second. Oh, Billy. Billy, yes. Billy. Your flipper skills, Billy.
    12:02
    A pinball tutorial based on a pinball tutorial video. That's how we approached it. So we had Professor Flippers, whatever it was called.
    12:12
    Pinball etiquette. After we filmed Pinball Etiquette with Button Pusher Billy, was that it? Yes. That's when we said, yeah, we'll make this a character. We'll just make him a character. Oh, God. I just like the Professor Flipper, and it starts off like it's an old VHS tape with all the decaying tape quality, and then it transitions into this high-def instructional video. It was adjusting. It was adjusting on the VCR. Yeah, yeah. The tracking comes up. I wonder who would even know what that means anymore. I know. I need to watch that again because I've probably forgotten most of what's in that. Oh, my God.
    12:52
    Actually, a lot of people still watch it. So it was a very good informational video for that. It must be true because DVDs have been obsolete for so long, yet my brother keeps saying, yeah, I ordered another case. I was like, really? It's crazy. No, people love it. Well, good. Good. But it wasn't a total waste of four years of my life. That's all. Just nothing. God, it's easy. Done. And Pinball 102, there's a Lethal Weapon 3 video in there, so I'm happy. And Jurassic Park, yeah. So we collaborated with Papa a bit to kind of show some of the, at the time, that were considered B titles.
    13:31
    So you'll see a lot of, like, the games that were on the tournament circuit but not, like, popular with collectors. But I'm guessing since then they're a little more popular with the collectors. There you go. There's a question. What's a, what would be like a sleeper title? Like a game that's not very popular that you like that people might say, really, you like that one? Hmm. Like a dot matrix game? Any game. Like when I say I like Lethal Weapon 3, like my favorite daddies is Lethal Weapon 3. I like Lethal Weapon 3. Yeah. I like Lethal Weapon 3. But if you say it's like your favorite daddies title, people will be like, really? You like it more than Tommy? You like it more than, you know? I am a huge fan of the infancy of Stern slash Data East so like Laser Wars, Torpedo Alley, Robocop, Monday Night Football I'm a huge fan of that era Was it the digital stereo or was it something else? It wasn't just the stereo it's just the games were so over the top campy that it just put a smile on your face like I don't know if you played Torpedo Alley but that game is just hilarious. Yeah we played that in Arcade Expo. I played Secret Service at some show. Oh, yeah. And I just remember thinking, like, man, this is actually pretty good. I was playing it with my father, and I never played it before. I love Secret Service, but I had to get rid of it because there was a game-killing bug in it.
    14:51
    And that is? Or do we not want to reveal it? Oh, sure. Okay, so you know how you roll over the inlay to light the super spinner? Mm-hmm. Yep. So if you roll over the right inlay and shoot the left super spinner, don't flip. Let the ball come down. it will kind of alley pass itself up the left end lane. So you have two super spinners running at once, and that kills the game. Oh, cute.
    15:15
    Instead of getting 2,500 spin, you get like 2.5 million of spin. You instantly roll it, and, yeah, it doesn't handle it too well. You end up with hexed in your score for the rest of the game. Wow. Interesting. So I had to get rid of that, yeah. You're pretty good at finding bugs in games, I've noticed. Or at least exploits.
    15:40
    Every time I walk in, the line is off. He's just like, now what? It's good, man. I like your games so much. I'm finding bugs.
    15:49
    So, I have a question from one of our listeners. All one of them? Okay. No, we have 38 right now. So, maybe we'll get 39 with this interview. 37. Another one didn't like our last episode. All right. Yes. This listener is Martin from Australia. He wanted me to ask Keith, how did you like the kangaroo ball sack pouch that I gave you at InDesk? Oh, okay. So the whole reason I was at InDesk is I was doing a belated Christmas with my family out there. So I had bought my brother these neomedium magnets, these rare earth magnets in spherical form. They kind of look like pinballs, but they're very, you know, they're almost dangerous. They're so magnetic.
    16:37
    And I had these two magnets for him, and I didn't know how to wrap them. And then he handed me the Kang stack. And I was like, oh, this is perfect. They fit in there perfectly. So that was the gift wrap for some rare-earth magnets. So thank you very much, Martin.
    16:53
    I'm fucking glad. Wow. So we were taking the stack with the magnets in it and throwing it at metal objects. It would just stick like a dart. It was an amazing Christmas. All thanks to Head to Head Podcast. Woo-hoo! See, guys? You made it. You made the big time. Wow.
    17:11
    Yeah, that was the one question they asked me to ask you, so that was actually very funny. When I was like, okay, do you really want to ask that? Oh, yeah, ask that. Definitely ask that. That was great. Yeah, I loved it.
    17:23
    So now your brother has this kangaroo ball sack. Yep, yep. We'll feature you on Pinball 103 in some fashion. Cool. Excellent.
    17:32
    So we all know you are the one because you were ranked number one when the IFPA was born. But you are ranked right now currently fourth in the IFPA rankings. Congratulations. Wow, that high? Yes. As of right now, looking at it. Oh, okay. Not bad for retirement, huh? Yeah, really. Yeah. Most people are not still ranked fourth when they're retired. Yeah.
    18:01
    And, of course, you are the only player with a perfect record versus other players. You have a winning record against every other player you've ever played against in matches and tournaments. More than twice. That wouldn't be perfect, though, Bruce. That would be a winning record. Winning record. Well, nobody else has a, you know, everyone else has a loss. I got you. But that's another Bruce-ism. So we had to... We're used to Bruce-isms here. We're used to Bruce-isms. You have a perfect record. Winning percentage. Yes. Yeah. Okay. All right. That makes sense. So, Jim Belsito, you are... You crush... Holy crap, you crush a lot of freaking people.
    18:43
    Like, Jim Belsito, who kicks total ass, you are 113 and 36 against him. Oof. I know. after you've won so many major tournaments? Is it getting boring in any way? Oh, yeah. You don't seem overly excited. No. I shouldn't say this, but, yeah, I was bored out of my mind at Indisc by day three. I just, yeah. I've gotten to the point where I really love match play tournaments. I think they're great, but these weekend-long pump-and-dump things, by the time finals rolls around, I'm over it. it's becoming a problem, and then that's one of the reasons I'm not playing as much as I used to. So if everything was like a Pinberg format, you'd be more likely to play? Oh, yeah. I love the set schedule. I love, you know, when and where you're going to play and how you're going to regulate your breaks, but yeah, standing in line for an hour to play a game, and then standing in line another hour to play a different game, and then doing that for three days, and then finals. Yeah, I just I'd rather, especially now that I live in Illinois, if I'm in California or something, I'd rather be outside.
    19:53
    Don't get me wrong. I know why it's done, but to me, I just prefer a one-day match play type thing. Like, I had a blast at the Illinois State Final. That was fun. It was over in 10 hours and done. Yeah, and done. So, are you going out to Las Vegas then, sir? I am not. I'm busy with stuff, so... Stuff. Ping pong. Yes, yes I passed the Josh Henderson gets to go then, alright Very cool But you actually now are in the Chicago Pinball League? I've been to one week, yeah And that's fun, that's Match play, you're in and out of there in three hours I love that, I can do that Many times You've got some good competition out there Oh yeah, that's The who's who of the pinball leagues It is, when we were talking about that when another person was going to head it out to Chicago. Yeah. We said, yeah, good luck with that one. Is that Tommy Soxton? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Tommy Soxton, yes. Yeah. I believe he's on the waiting list. Oh, wow. There's a waiting list. Oh, yeah. Wow. Holy crap. There's a big one for that league. Yeah. Chicago Pinball League, there's a big waiting list. So then they had the Chicago Pinball Mafia. They created their own league so they wouldn't have to, you know, because they couldn't get into that league. Then their league ended up filling up. Now they have a waiting list. So it's hard to get into leagues as opposed to where I live where there is no leagues. Well, there's one league, and we have, like, four or five people. In San Diego, that was the same thing. We don't really have a league, but we have a tournament, and 12 people show up. Yeah, it's night and day. Illinois is great for a pinball league, that's for sure. And plus, you have no good weather to be outside for six or seven months anyway, so what the hell, might as well do something else indoors. Yep. That's true. Indoors.
    21:50
    So about what, where abouts did you start playing in tournaments? 1993, when Twilight Zone came out. That's where I met Lyman Sheets, Jim Belcido, and Neil Schatz.
    22:04
    And I had a great time, but back then, you know, people are spoiled now, because if you lost, you had to wait until next year. There was only two tournaments. There was one in Phoenix, the Wild West Show, and the Pinball Expo in Chicago. So those are basically the two tournaments a year that were going on when I got into it. Wow, only two tournaments. Yeah, right? Wow. When you lose, you're kicking yourself in the butt for six months or a year. I just remember the first expo I ever went to. It was 2004.
    22:39
    And the game was Elvis. Oh, yeah. Which you remember, I'm sure, because you won the tournament. Yes, I did. That's the first time I ever saw Keith. And I just remember, I remember watching him playing, like, a video mode. He wanted the Elvis video mode and, like, kicking ass at it. And I'm there, man, this guy's got to be pretty good.
    22:59
    And I saw he won the tournament. And you got a game. It's back when they did that. Yes, yes. I had that game for quite a while. and then the next year it was a Pirates and that's when I realized how long pinball can be played because in the finals I think you played it was John Cosmo yeah and it was like your first ball went like 20-30 minutes and I was like I think this may be over so it's like because back then and it would just be whatever the game that was out. Yeah. And none of them were really tournamentified, I would say. They were all, like, just stock. Actually, that one absolutely was. Oh, really? Yes. Damn, but it's still like that long. Yeah, I mean, still, even with the Outland Plus gone, it's still a long-playing game. Really? Wow. Yeah. Which was why, now you know, on my favorite era game, you can have a good game in 10 minutes.
    24:04
    Agreed. As an operator, I definitely agree. Yes. So I have a question for you. All these trophies you've collected over many, many years, where the hell do you keep these all? There's some in my office. I got a couple at home in the restroom storage. Wow. So which ones are worthy for the office?
    24:29
    I got my Illinois State Champion in there. I got my Papa Belts, Circuit Champion Belts. And I think I have a classics trophy. That's because Zach brought it to me. So do you wear the belt around the office?
    24:44
    If I did, I would. Oh, wow. So where is the humongous industrial art thing? Do you remember the year they gave those out? Yes, I do remember. That's at Ron Schuster's house in Pennsylvania.
    24:59
    Wow. That's my donation to his museum-like Arcadia, isn't it? Because if people never saw this thing, it was huge. Now, I still have the manhole cover. And when I was moving here, I threw out my back moving that. Oh, my God. I might just keep that in storage forever. I don't know. I don't blame you.
    25:22
    I was just wondering, like, there's got to be at least, you know, so much. It's almost like probably a storage shed for all the trophies you have. Yeah. I did have a bunch of trophies that got water damaged after a storage unit leaked. So I had a bunch of plastic Piml Expo trophies that bit the dust. But, yeah, the rest I still have. Like my first trophy from 1993, I still have that. That's cool. Yeah, I won a World Cup soccer and I traded for a Twilight Zone.
    25:53
    Well, here's a good question. How many games have you won? Not that many. Was he Elvis? Pirates of the Caribbean. NASCAR.
    26:05
    The World Cup. I won a Narrow Smith. And Trent slows me a game from the last Expo, which I haven't picked yet because it hasn't been released yet.
    26:17
    We'll keep that. We'll just say nothing there. Mmm. Yeah, how about them Yankees? Yeah. Aaron Judge is awesome. Yes, he is. Well, we're talking to a Padres fan. That much I know. I still am a Padres fan. Oh, yeah. And you just got up a good pickup, Eric Hosmer. Yeah, yeah. That's weird. I don't know if he'll hit as many home runs in that park. Well, what the Padres do is they sign people, then they trade them a year later. Wow. His contract will be all back-end loaded like they do. Don't worry. Yeah, as a Padres fan, I could say this.
    26:58
    So, as a Padres fan, who is your favorite player? Right now? All time. Oof. Well, either Tony Gwynn or Trevor Hoffman. That's the two I was thinking of. Yeah. Come on. You could have went Winfield. I have his autograph somewhere, but he became a Yankee trader, so. Oh.
    27:20
    He's right, man. He signed a big multi-million dollar contract with the Yankees, though. He's a trader. But he was a Padre. Yes, he was. So was Ozzie Smith. Yep. Yeah, my mom used to take me to the games and watch the – they were awful back then, but those two guys were fun to watch. Oh, yeah.
    27:38
    Does anyone remember who Ozzie Smith was traded for? I do. Bruce? I don't, so go ahead, Keith. Gary Templeton. Yep. Wow. Yep. A little trivia there. It was a trade that worked out for both teams, honestly. Yeah, it did. It did. Gary Templeton, he was a switch hitter, right? Yeah. Yeah, he was a solid hitter. Good defensive player, not quite Ozzie, but, yeah, that was a great trade. Okay, we're going on to baseball. This is great. Oh, gosh. How long is this podcast? Oh, God, this is a pain in the fucking balls, this podcast.
    28:14
    Remember that one play they always show at Ozzie Smith? I think it was when he's with the Padres where he dives for a ball. It literally takes a bad hop, and he changes in mid-dive and barehands it and throws the guy out. Yeah. It's probably one of my favorite infield plays I've ever seen. They show it all the time. Yeah, that and when he's running to the outfield and dives backwards, Jim Edmonds style. Yeah. Before Jim Edmonds made that popular. Yeah. Or the one home run he hit in the playoffs. Yeah. That is Tim McCausley's fashion. Barely made it over the wall, but it did go out.
    28:48
    All right, pinball. Pinball, pinball. All right. So we go to news, or we want to ask him some more questions on your docket, Mr. Ron? I'm looking here. We got some of his favorite games. I noticed you have some unusual shirts. You have, like, the Frontier shirt. Yes. Which I wish I had a Frontier shirt. What was the other one? You had the Beavis and Butthead, but it was, like, Edison and Tesla.
    29:12
    Oh, ACDC. Yeah. And the one that I had to explain to someone because they saw you wearing it and said, what does that mean? And it's the one that's the – actually, here you go. You can tell this story. The shirt you have it says to win at pinballs to lose at life I believe Oh yes Adam Lefkoff made that shirt So tell us this story for those who haven heard it So way back when at my first Papa tournament in 1998, there was a reporter from GQ magazine there, and he was interviewing all the players. And after I won, he came and he took everyone's picture, interviewed me a little bit. Everything seemed great. And then a couple months later, the skating article came out about what losers we were. You look at it now, it's pretty hilarious. He probably wasn't too wrong, but probably not why he was sent there. And that was like the headline, if I remember. Or was that a line in the article? No, it was a line in the article. To win at pinball is to lose at life.
    30:13
    So we are some of the biggest losers here, Bruce. Yep. Woo! My life is so empty. I'm already over it. So we've got Chicago weather.
    30:25
    I mean, would you want to live here? Not in Chicago now. That's why I told Tommy Sox that what he got here was the, wow, you just made a mistake of your life.
    30:37
    Wow. But you should have seen it, though. When he came in for his interview, he looked like Charlie Henry, the chocolate factory. The smile on his face. Oh, boy. Oh, yeah. This Tommy Soxton.
    30:47
    It's beautiful here. Stop. I can see him inside something and trying to dig through the thing. Augustus, get out of the machine. Get out now.
    30:58
    Can I see what's behind the door? Nope. You can't see that. That's actually a true story. Really? Oh, that's funny.
    31:13
    Yeah. So wait a minute. So when you had your interview, did you actually wear a suit? No. No? Wow. My interview, it was straight after Pimble Expo tournament, so I don't think I was expected to dress up. Did you get grilled like he did?
    31:33
    Oh, yeah. Okay. That's fair then. Yep. So, if you wanted one more game in your collection, like say you had space in your, not in your office, but at your house right now, What game would it be? Cyclops. Wow. So what do you like about Cyclops?
    31:57
    It's very hard. It's very rare. And it's just a great game. Multiball. Great bonus meltdown. It's just different. It's different. I like games that are different. And it's the all-ass game.
    32:13
    It's the most ass ever on a game. It has to be. That's what I call it. It's called the ass game. Something more mainstream, I'd definitely take a cheetah. Oh. Ooh. What else is on the radar? Obviously a stargazer, but I'm not going to pay six grand for one. Oh, boy. Glad I didn't either then. You could build your own. That's what people are doing now.
    32:35
    I wouldn't mind having another mystic. I used to have one. Got rid of it. Mystic is nice. I always liked mystic. Love mystic. So cheetah, yes. That's what I was working on all day yesterday. I was working on that wonderful light plate that's in the grid in front of the drop target bank. I love those. Aren't those light plates awesome? No, they're terrible. As a big game slash nine ball owner, I can feel your pain. Now we have the fixes, though. Yeah, thanks to those two games, there's a guy that makes light boards for big game, which I have in my big game. And they're basically like light boards like you'd find on a WPC game with the twist. Oh, okay. Yep. I did not know this. and he makes them for nine ball also.
    33:19
    So you can put them in nine ball and you don't have to have the, my light plates have what the electrical tape running along, so it doesn't short against the drop target Mac, which I thought was a hack and found out like, no, that's actually factory. Yes, mine was the same way. That's actually factory. That was their solution. And according to Mr. Scott, there's actually not a bad solution because it usually worked better than a lot of the other things that companies have tried. The electrical tape actually worked better. So if you ever do get a cheetah and that light board is wasted, which it will be because it's right in front of the target bank, so it's guaranteed that it will be wasted, you can get one of the boards for big game. They sell them in the three-pack, but you just take one of those boards, and wouldn't you know, it fits perfectly in nine of the 12 lights. Okay. And then the other three you just put sockets in, but you've got to put them at an angle so the big five-bank drop target mech has room. All right. That's good to know. And then you need the modified ROMs so you can't just collect the bonus over and over. Yeah, yep. I got a lot of Scott's ROMs, a lot of the early ones. Yeah. Yeah, I have. Because you have the big game, I have his big game ROM. And I think I sent you the even more modified Quicksilver ROM. Quicksilver ROM, yeah. Where I had him reverse the spinner sounds. So get this. Out there in the world is a one-of-a-kind Flight 2000 where the bonus maxes out at $19,000. that Scott did for me. Because the bonus, I think Max had it 10,000 times, seven or whatever it is. So he boosted that for me. So the bonus was actually worth something. Oh, wow. And I have one of a kind Cybernaut ROM, too. To fix what?
    35:01
    You can't shoot the ramp all day. You have to knock down the drop targets, which normally don't do anything in the game. So it was actually quite a good improvement. That's cool. I love those modified ROMs. Scott's constantly bugging me now to try to test the Firepower ROMs, and I probably will get the, there's like a super combo 9-ball ROM that's supposed to not get as confused with locks and switches, which 9-ball is really bad at. Is this revision 65?
    35:35
    It's supposed to have just better compensation for things like that, And then it was further refined to include 2X and 3X scoring during multi-ball, which I thought was cool. But you have to put it on a large ROM that's even larger than what, it's even larger than like a 2732, like even bigger. Yeah. I don't even remember what it is. I remember that. Yeah, and you need some kind of special, like supposedly the Weebly boards, me and Bruce plug all the time. Yes. According to Scott, those boards actually would support this ROM, so I might try that out. Well, I'm ordering up two of them and a soundboard, so I'm going to be good.
    36:12
    So the Super Jackpot is a 3X 173,000 collect? Oh, that'd be freaking sweet. You know, Keith, thanks. I mean, that wouldn't even enter in my head.
    36:25
    That's why I know where 173,000 came from. Yeah, I know. Exactly. That would be like 10 seconds to think like, hmm, that would be cool. So how much do you work on your machines? You know, how good are you at working on machines? That's the way this should be the question I should be asking. Oh, I've just done it for years. My favorite games to work on are the electromechanicals because I know I can fix them. Whereas, you know, oh, I've got a bad 5101. No, I've got to order one. So, yeah, I can't fix it right there. But anytime you walk up to an EM, unless everything's just rusted out, you know you can fix it. The only exception are the old Gottlieb score reels that get all gummed up and aren't fun to clean. So what are some of your favorite EMs? I really like the Wedgeheads. I have a Slick Chick and a Tropic Isle. You know, I like some of the Sonic games. Prospector, Mars Trek, Grand Prix, Liberty Bell.
    37:23
    You know, kind of nothing in particular. Monaco. I like spinners. I love Argosy. I love that game. Argosy. But you can tell where he was going. Every one of those games has a good spinner shot. Yep. Aztec. Yeah, I love the spinners. That's why he brought up Stargazer, because it's triple spinner.
    37:49
    Is there a game with four spinners? I know three. I know a couple with three, but is there one with four?
    37:57
    I would say no. Yeah, I can't think of any. I can't think of any either. Yeah, Jimmy Cheetah has three.
    38:03
    So does Stargazer. So does Harlem. Oh, yeah. The first game that had spinners had four, I think. Oh, really? Which was? Swing Along.
    38:14
    I'm pretty sure it had four spinners all on the same plane. All right. What was the Blackout remake?
    38:24
    Warlock? I have that. There's three spinners? Three, okay. Because they're attached to the bank of targets they're near? Yeah, that's a fun game. Fun game. Yeah. So what tournament are you most proud of winning?
    38:40
    The Nickel City Monthly. Hey, that's cool. I still have that trophy. It's not the size of my thumb. It's great. See, but that's the one he's like, yes. I guess the pop-up that Ron recorded where I was – I wasn't even factored into the final, yet I won, because everyone finished perfectly between Lyman, Bowen, Zach, or Josh. Oh, my God, I've never done that. Josh and myself. Was that the – was there Adam's family involved in that? Yep. Okay, yeah. That's the one I had to stand on top of the frigging chair. Old-school tourney cam. Yeah, with my Hi8 camera, which has a tape in it, which is heavy as hell, and I'm holding it over my head to record this thing. Nice. No, it wasn't. It's so much better now. I'm so glad I don't have to do that anymore.
    39:34
    I still remember the first Pinberg, well, when it restarted again, that was at the Papa facility, the first group.
    39:44
    Remember who it was, Bruce? I know exactly who it was. It was a three-person group. It was me, you, and Keith Hellman. Ooh, what did we play? First game, we played Space Invaders, which I won. I was thrilled. You're going to hate that game. Game sucks. The game does suck. I agree.
    40:07
    And out of all those white bodies, guess which one sold the most? I don't know. Space Invaders. Then we played, what did we play, Nineball? Yes. Which I remember they pulled like the center post and like the outlay post. And, yeah, that was your reaction. You're like, wow. You don't need that. Yeah, that's exactly what you said. They really didn't have to do that. This game is not easy. So there's a Kirk post sign there but no Kirk post? Yep. So.
    40:37
    And then attack from Mars. Yeah, then attack from Mars. Who won that? You. Yes. Oh, easy. It was not even. So I remember that because that's where I won C division, and the two players that came up to congratulate me were Zach Sharp and you. And I always wondered if it was just like, oh, that's that dude I played in the first round. He won something? Congratulations, dude. Nice kid. Congratulations. I always wondered if that's what he was thinking, like, oh, I recognize that guy. I played him in the first round.
    41:12
    I'm sure I remembered you. I didn't remember Bruce, though. I know. I'm unforgettable. Yes, you are unforgettable.
    41:24
    Here's another good story. I'm playing in Classics once, and I hear this guy next to me, and he's, like, just swearing under his breath. He's like, you fucking asshole. Make a fucking shot. And I'm like, man, this dude's really pissed. I turn around, I look, and it's Keith Owen.
    41:38
    I'm like, wow. He actually, I just, I didn't see that coming. Yeah, I'm probably my worst critic. So would you say you're more intense than you look when you're playing?
    41:52
    If it's Papa Classics, yeah, because you want to just get it over with. You know, having to go back in line again and do another four-game run, it's just, yeah. Yeah, you ain't kidding.
    42:06
    Hey, Bruce. Yes, sir. Did you know there's new ACDC code? There is new ACDC code, and it's already installed on my ACDC. Hmm. I played it without reading the notes because I wanted to see. I'm trying to improve my rules knowledge because I suck at most of the newer games because they're too complicated for my tiny brain. So I wanted to see if I can pick up different stuff.
    42:30
    And Hell's Bell's definitely changed. That it did. Because now when you hit the button, the VIP pass doesn't give you the bell. You don't get that 2X, 3X anymore. Like, ooh, okay, that was made significantly harder. Like, that may not be the be-all, end-all song to pick now.
    42:51
    So have you played any other key? You probably played it before it was released. Not very much, no. Not very much? I saw the different animations on it. It's easier to get jam. It's easier to get album. All of them are easier to get. But jam, you only need five rams instead of six. instead of three drop targets, you need only two sets of drop targets. For album and for tour, you need two less loops. So that's easier. Fewer. And I love that they added something that was actually on the insert but was never really true.
    43:28
    Tunes and stuff. Yes. It always said tunes and stuff, but really when you hit it, you could change your song, to my knowledge. There was nothing else. Now they've added the stuff, which is different awards, which I only got one into it. It said, like, 2X Devilhorns, whatever that means. Yeah, saw that. But supposedly there's one of the awards is one that actually where you hit the button, you can get a hit. You can get, like, the 2X, 3X going. Yeah, no matter what song you're playing. So it's like, hmm, that's pretty cool. More strategy. Yeah, and it does tell you, I mean, lights hit the bell. You hit the bell, and then one of the orbits lights. You hit that, and then you hit the other orbit, and then it blinks when it's the stuff, and it's solid when it's the tunes.
    44:13
    I thought it was cool as hell. Like, wow, I did not anticipate that being. It's been, what, three and a half years? Yeah. This last update to that? I mean, this was significant, I mean, to me. I mean, there was rule changes to this thing. It wasn't just bug fixes. Yeah. When you say that your tiny brain can't accept complicated rule sets, what is your ideal rule set? I'm curious. stars pretty much yeah classics I think the only reason I was able to comprehend the ACDC like whole song jackpot thing quickly was because I'm an ACDC fan so the whole thing like if you're on the you know whatever song is playing is on when you get an album multiball it's whatever album the song you're playing is from like oh okay I know all the ACDC albums I get it so okay and whatever tour, all that came to me pretty easy. But that's one of the only ones. I mean, when someone tries to explain some of the rules to me, I'm like, I just forget half of them. I don't know. So what is your ideal rule set?
    45:22
    Say, do you like modern design with a simpler rule set or vice versa? I like dialed in would be a good example. So you like dialed in because? I can understand. It's not totally linear. It's not like, you know, I don't like games that are completely linear, like Roadshow, where you have to take everything in order. You can't start anything at the same time. You can't start, you know, I start a city, and now I can't block a ball or something. I'm not a fan of that, personally. But I like the fact that in Dialed In, like, it has all these disasters, and they each have a specific, like, personality to them. It's not just flashing lights. It's specific things in a character that's associated with it. Like, I love, you know, the aliens. You have the redneck dude. You know, the volcano. You got the soccer mom. Tornado. You have the trailer park woman. I like goofiness in just the whole presentation.
    46:27
    And it's got, like, the mini wizard mode now, and then it's got the two wizard modes on top, you know, the showdown and what's the other one? Armageddon. So you're a big fan of the 90s rule sets? Yeah, yeah, you could say that. You could say that. That's kind of, they're more.
    46:45
    Less RGB oriented and more straightforward. Yeah, more straightforward. And I love the humor, like things like Attack from Mars. We were talking about that in one of the other podcasts. It's just like, you know, Martian multiballer, you hit three of the four Martians and the last one's sitting there and he's like, oh, no. You know, that's hilarious. I love that.
    47:06
    I'd like to see more of that goofiness in some of the games. But that's just kind of what I go for. It's either that or you go early solid state brutality, where it's just like you're always on edge because the ball's going to drain in any second. That I like, too. Kind of the TNA experience? Yeah. yetine experience or things like right now in my game room the things I play like the two hardest games I have right now are Stars and Dragon Fist of all things. Ugh.
    47:38
    Ooh, not a big Dragon Fist, man. Not a big Dragon Fist, man? Oh, no. It's like if you take all the fun parts of Sea Witch and put them in a different package you get Dragon Fist.
    47:50
    I might have to drop off this call. I love Dragon Fist. It's no Algar, but I don't like it. Oh, wow. You don't like all the speed, that spinner, the sweepable targets?
    48:06
    Can you actually sweep them, or do you have to rely on the game actually sweeping them for you? It's better than, actually, it's easier than Quicksilver in some ways to sweep them. The four bank, the Quicksilver, or the three bank? The four bank. Oof.
    48:21
    It's easier. I would say minor sweepable. I just love those two sweepable shots. I love the speed. I love the fact you've got to progress through the Xs and you have to hit the stupid center bank, which I'm like, like Sea Witch gives you an out with the center bank. It gives you the side flipper so you can sweep them. You're not in danger. Dragon Fist gives you no out. You have to hit them dead on and pray you don't drain. It's got the spinner that's worked progressively more, the higher X you get to, the higher multiplier.
    48:54
    All right. Now, maybe I need to try it again. I haven't played it in years. You need to try it again. You need to come over and play mine, you see. That's the problem. It's no split second, I hope. Oh, God, no. God, no, no. Hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry. Oh. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do.
    49:11
    What was with Harry Williams and the Widebodies, man? He did, like, their first, what, four or five of them? You did Big Game, Cheetah and Flight 2000 So you started off hot Then Freefall kind of Trails off in a split second You know This sucks Yeah And then what was after that He didn't do the ones after that Then you had Iron Maiden You had Q Do you ever play that
    49:46
    I played it. Bless you. I have played it. I didn't even know. I wasn't even. This was early in my pinball life, so I had no idea about Stern or who Harry Williams was or any of that. And I played that at Expo.
    50:03
    And I played like two games on it. I was like, this is horrible. What the hell is the concept? The flippers are faced the other way, hit the balls in the pockets. If anyone's listening, go up on IPDB and look it up. It plays as bad as it looks in the picture.
    50:17
    And, yeah, I'm bummed that that was Harry Williams' last game. He deserved a better. Yeah. I mean, to me, that dude, he's the king. To come back to Stern like he did at his age and just, boom, he just was, I mean, it was innovative. I mean, he made games that just had interesting shots that actually work.
    50:40
    Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you could be innovative and it could play like shit. But, you know, big game, you play big game, it's got like the one loop around on the right side. It's got the other loop on the little mini loop on the left. I like just talking about it. Yeah. It's awesome. I love that game. If you would ask me, hey, what classic Stern game, you know, almost every one you'd want to change one rule one way or another. But big game, I can't think of anything. It's like it's perfect. That and Stars. Both have perfect rule sets. Yes. Stars, too. Yeah, Scott didn't even change anything with that one. Steve Kirk and, yeah, Harry Williams. They had a couple of great designers. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You can ask Mr. Tom Soxton. God, we're going to say his name differently every time.
    51:22
    You can ask Tom Soxton. We call it the three-for-three club. It has two members. It has Brian Eddy and Steve Kirk. Steve Kirk, you have S.T.A.R.S., you have Meteor, and you have Nineball.
    51:36
    And Brian Eddy, you have Shadow, you have Attack from Mars, and you have Medieval Madness. So you're forgetting Swords of Fury? or you just forgot about it? You got fired midway through that. We're not including that. Oh, okay. He wasn't there to the end, so he could argue that wasn't my complete vision. What about truck stop?
    51:55
    Well, if you want to go that way, you could say GammaTron. What's that? You could say GammaTron also.
    52:01
    I believe supposedly he would redesign that. I mean, it's like 2000 in a conventional size, but supposedly he has, at least the IPDB's got design credit on that. Yes. I've played that before. It plays all right. Bruce wants one. I do? Gamatron. Oh, Gamatron. Yeah. I do want one.
    52:22
    It's like Flight 2000 in normal, conventional goodness. Need it. Want it. Gotta have it. Yeah, good luck with that, Bruce. It's just like, I had somebody comment and email me about a cheetah, and of course that fell into the freaking abyss. Really? Yeah. I want to get this cheetah up and running. And when I go, I'm going to Texas. I'll see. I've got to seek out Nick while I'm there. Mr. NHL. He is the reason that I have the cheetah. Thank him. Yeah. I have a cheetah back glass. Does that count? Why? I have one too, see? That's weird. I bought one years ago. I know someday I would get the game.
    53:05
    You still will. I know. The problem is my cheetah has what I call galaxy in-lane syndrome. Broken. Which is, yeah, every galaxy you'll ever see, the in-lane guides at the end are broken. Every fathom you will see. Yeah. So I have, and we'll see how this works, I actually have metal in-lane guides from a viper. They almost fit perfectly. Viper. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. If you depart from a cheetah game, it can make a good game live. I still have a cat. Just like Rapid Fire, I think it has two Squawking Talk boards. There you go. Rapid Fire. Lots of good partying out there. Yeah. Spectrum's got a lot of good boards you can yank. Yeah, two light boards. Two light boards instead of one. Yeah. Seven-digit displays, two light boards. Don't let Zach hear you say that. Yeah, Zach's probably going, what?
    54:01
    Well, his dream, Pinberg Bank, had Radiant Fire in it. Yeah, he's a little demented. Love that game. What? In a tournament. Oh, God. All right, all right. Since we asked that question, we'll ask you this question. You can put together your favorite Pinnberg bank. You can make your own bank. What's your four games?
    54:25
    Based on the actual eras? Yeah, based on the actual eras. So we're talking about the games I enjoy playing in tournament the most. That would be Attack from Mars. Adam's Family Frontier and Grand Prix there you go that's a good bank I wouldn't mind that bank at all sold I think you answered this before if you could pick any one game you're in a tournament and you have one game for it all and you can pick one game any era, doesn't matter what are you picking?
    55:03
    if I want to win, ACDC ACDC. Okay. Wow. So remember that, Bruce. Do not play him on ACDC. Well, he gets the picks, so I'm screwed anyway. That's true.
    55:16
    That's what they went into. Don't they have the rule, like, if you're the top seed, you can remove a game? Yes. Now, I remember, you removed Lord of the Rings the one year? They put in RGC, yeah. Yeah. I was thanking you from afar, watching the video. I was like, oh, Lord of the Rings is gone. Yes. That was no ordinary Lord of the Rings. That was Carl D'Angelo's Lord of the Rings from Hell, I guess is a good way to put it. The lightning flippers know that the outlane posts were gone, so it was just the plastic part of the inlane. It was brutal.
    55:47
    Speaking of brutality, Bruce, I'm about to kick your ass, because it's time for Face Off. Special Face Off. Yeah, special L1 edition, where we are not going to do what we originally did last. What was it? It was like 1986?
    56:06
    86, yeah. I had Motor Dome and... You lost already. Keith just said, no, I'm not doing that one. No. So he gave us the year. Well, he gave us a choice of two. Yes. So we picked the year that we liked the best because we have not done it yet, which was 1979. And then we put in three companies because we don't consider Gottlieb a company in 79. Wow. Come on. Doot, doot, doot, doot, doot. No. That doesn't do it for me. That could be a classic Stern as well.
    56:41
    Yeah, but not 79. Boop, boop, boop, boop. Really? Yeah. When did Magic come out? 79. Yeah. Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. And like Nugent.
    56:53
    Ugh. You know, their rock and roll pin game, and it sounds terrible. Just think if Stars had come out a little bit later, it would have had that sound package. Oh.
    57:02
    It would have been ruined. That's right. Because they had, what, Stingray, Memory Lane, and Stars. Yep. The three solid states with chimes. And then they went with the whatever you call those sounds that it made. You have Countdown if you picked 79. I got lead.
    57:21
    You have Countdown? That would have been the only one. Tin Wall Pool? That would have been pretty good, too. You also have the Hulk. Yeah.
    57:30
    Solar Ride. Charlie's Angels. Yeah, never mind. Okay. Yeah. So I got Williams. Well, you were actually, that was the first pick. I let Ron take the first pick, and he said, Williams was the first one drawn, and he said, I'll take Williams, and then the next one was Bally. Which you realize makes no sense because I won the last time, so you should have given, should have been your pick. I was being nice. It's very rare that I am nice, but I will be nice this time. But you, who gets, I should go first then, so you can pick against me. Yes, you will. Okay. Yes, I will. So here we go. So the games Ron has to choose from, and again, the way this works is we do three games, and we sell our game. It doesn't matter whether we actually like the game or not. We're pitting games against each other, and selling them to our guest, and then the one will make his decision. I have Williams, so I get to choose between Flash, Gorgar, Laser Ball, Stellar Wars, Time Warp, or Tri-Zone. So I got a good number of games to choose from. I'm going to modify the rules on you guys just to throw you a curveball. Cool. Oh, boy. Here we go. You each need to pick a widebody. Okay. Oh, that's fine for me. That's easy for me. Do the widebodies have to be picked against each other, or can they just be picked? No, you just have to pick a widebody. Oh, okay. Oh, that's easy. I got good ones. Yeah that a little unfair Woo Bruce has let see Dolly Parton Future Spa Harlem Globetrotters Kiss Paragon Star Trek and Super Sonic And Voltan escapes cosmic doom. Oh, really? Where the hell is that? That's 79. 02, February of 79. Fine.
    59:22
    365 of those puppies made by Christian and Christensen. Hey, look, Black Sheep Squadron, one of your favorite games. That was made in 79. That's true, baby. That game's awesome. It is! See?
    59:37
    I never played it, so I can't make any comments. It is actually a pretty good game. It's always broken, though. Thank you.
    59:44
    But it is a pretty good game. I'd like to get one cheap. If we can get one cheap. All right. So where do I come out first here?
    59:54
    Okay. You guys want to do four picks with the white body or just three with the white body? We can do three with the white body. It's fine. Okay. Yep. Or we can do four, and we purposely, I went two and he went two, and we have a big, you know, fifth game. Yeah, let's do that. Okay.
    60:09
    All right, man, that might change up my strategy here. Yeah, I want to see some strategy. Do I go right? See, that's what I like about the game. It's like, what is he going to pick against me?
    60:19
    Do I go for, do I go right for the, because Bruce actually has good games this time. Yeah, I do. Yeah. That's why we picked this year. Yeah. I'm going to go with Flash.
    60:33
    Flash. Steve Ritchie's first game at Williams. A classic of the era. The first game with continuous background sound, which became a staple of solid state games. It has the repeatable loop shot, at least on mine it is. It has the great plunge that goes around the loop.
    60:55
    It has the five bank of targets on the left and the three bank of death in the center. Eject hole on the right. It's got the lanes up top. Very basic rule set. But the key here is that background sound, the wonderful early solid-state Williams electronic sounds, and just the great flow of the game, the way the shots feel. This is when Steve Ritchie really, I feel, found himself when he joined Williams. Not saying Superman and Airborne Adventure aren't good games. Superman's actually, I like Superman, but Flash was really where he became the king of flow. And they sold a shit ton, 19,505, and they cut production short. and let's say I'm reading right from IPDB because I remember the story yeah the VP of sales Steve Ritchie asked him why wouldn't we try to push it to 20,000 and he replied we want to leave them wanting more which seems stupid but whatever I don't really get that but it was such a good game and they made so many of them it was originally created on system 4 and then there were games at the end that were on system 6 that's how long the production run went It's one of the greatest games of the early solid state era. I give you Flash.
    62:17
    I yield the four. Okay. Rebuttal time. What was that? Rebuttal time. Well, no, I got a rebuttal of my game, definitely. We do standard debate rules. Like, I plug my game, he plugs the game, and then we do a rebuttal. Okay. So, I can either use a wide body or a regular body in the competition with this one, right? Yep. Okay, good, good, good, good, good. I'm going for all balls out right now. Oh, God. The first wide body production game by Bally, Paragon.
    62:50
    Awesome brutalness. Awesome play. You have your three pop bumpers, your two kickout holes up top. You have the inline drop targets on your left-hand side. four flippers,
    63:08
    three on the bottom with the scissor on the bottom right. You have, what's the waterfall? You have the Golden Cliffs, the waterfall on the side, instead of four, is it four drop targets on that? I can't remember myself, and I own one. What does that tell you? I'm fucking not going to lie. Three drop targets on the right-hand side. You have everything. A spinner.
    63:28
    You have the pop bumper of death on the lower left. So you actually have four pop bumpers this thing with the Beast Lair.
    63:37
    You have great scoring, great rules, good artwork. You cannot beat the artwork. The artwork just rocks on this game. I don't know what the hell that thing is, you know, in the back glass, but it looks freaking cool, you know. And his wife.
    63:53
    The Griffin? Okay, good. Thank you, sir. Great Paul Ferris artwork, though, with his wife on the back glass and him over with the Griffin and I give you Paragon.
    64:07
    I yield the floor. Okay. Negative is about Paragon. It's too brutal. It's too hard. Okay, that's not really a... I'm having a hard time rebuttaling. The artwork is extremely offensive.
    64:26
    Semi-nude woman on the back glass. Very offensive. The Beast Slayer is just evil. why is that there? that's just wrong after you max out the bonus what do you really do at that point? just hit more stuff I guess that's all I got well I'm actually going to rebuttal your rebuttal Flash is just a heap of flaming turdness it just does nothing the only way you can make Flash good is by modifying the rule set. You don't modify Paragon.
    65:06
    You have the goodness already done with Paragon. They don't make rule changes on that, but they have to with Flash to make it interesting and enjoyable.
    65:15
    Paragon just rocks. What do they need to change, Bruce? What's wrong with the rules? You can't just say the rules suck and not explain why. They do suck compared to the other stuff. Paragon rules are just plain and simple. You know, get the 5X like in every other valley, which is totally fine. You get the drop targets on the side, which, you know, increase your value for the waterfall on the right-hand side. Simple. Great. On the other one, okay, let's just go around and got to get those, you know, up top in lanes, which are really hard to get sometimes. And, oh, let's shoot that side shot. Yeah, it was copied by some guy later on in valley, but we don't worry about that. Paragon rocks. That's all that matters. I yield the floor.
    66:00
    So, Bruce, when you have the ball on the left flipper and paragon, what are you shooting? I go back up top. I shoot it back up top. That works for you? That works for me because if I get up top again, then I still get the chance to get the golden cliffs. I don't care about the paragon letters. I want the golden cliffs. If you can get in that saucer and you have it already built up pretty high, it's a nice add-on bonus. If you get up to like 10 or 12 or 14 at that point, you're doing pretty good. or you can tap half it and get it to the right side and then go for and go for the multipliers or the spinner don't forget the first goal of course in my, when I'm trying to do Paragon I know it's probably not what you do sir is try to build up to get the super bonus get the 20, 30 and 40 so then you're happy later on in life that's right you go for the spinner and stuff first before the inlines well because guess what If you don't, multiplying little bonus doesn't help you.
    66:59
    You have the super bonus, then you go for the in lanes, then you're going to have a nice, big, fat, juicy bonus.
    67:06
    Okay. Gameplay-wise, I'm leaning towards Flash because I think the rules are a little bit better, but the overall geometry, the classic sounds, the artwork, I got to go with Paragon.
    67:25
    I'm going to tell Steve Ritchie you said that. No, he can't hear you. Oh, wow. That's not very funny, asshole.
    67:38
    Can't wait to see you Monday. The aircraft factory. Damn, okay. So I'm down. Okay, you got a pick. I got my Y-body out of the way. Okay. Okay, number two.
    67:56
    Unfortunately, I just sold this, but it's still a great game. Harlem Globetrotters. Oof. Greg McKemmick again with the Greg Ferris artwork. Inline drop targets on the right-hand side this time. Three spinners, three pop bumpers, three flippers. The good thing about this art, the rules said with this, which I love myself, is every time you hit a drop target, your left spinner increases in value.
    68:26
    So if you max that out, you know, you get your 5X, you have now two shots to go for. You need to go for the saucer hold to get your big bonus, or you keep on hitting that spinner on the left-hand side and rock it.
    68:39
    Great rules, the outkicker, you know, globe gives you a nice bonus, you know, when you finally spell globe. Hopefully you have it on hard rules. You know, it's a randomized thing, and you're not getting any big bonuses on hitting the drop targets or anything like that. Three spinners, can't beat it. Flea flippers, good overall game with a gate. You actually get the gate on the right-hand side, too, to save that ball once in a while. Hopefully that's disabled. That's even better. Makes it a little harder. Good artwork.
    69:09
    Great valley architecture. I give you Harlem. Fun fact, if you have your spinner juiced enough and you max it out, when you crush it,
    69:19
    like I'll crush it and it'll go into the hole and it'll just sit in the hole while it counts up because it has to catch up with it. Pretty nice little feature. Ron, who's TV you on there?
    69:32
    This is a tough one here. I'm going to go for one of my – actually, I really like this game, And every time I go to Papa, I get pissed because they have some bizarre Simon game thing going on it. It's like some weird modified thing. Bruce will know what I'm talking about. And that's Tri-Zone.
    69:51
    Actually, do you know what I'm talking about, Bruce? Yes, I do. Because at Papa, they have this game, and every year I'm like, oh, it's Tri-Zone. I like Tri-Zone. And it's like they made it like a Simon game or something. It's something weird with the rules. But I play this at Allentown every year. is a deceptively fun game. Very nice shooting, nice layout.
    70:14
    It's got your Williams, really solid state sounds going for it. A lot of red in the artwork. But it just shoots very well. I'm really into games that I feel shoot well, and I always found this very enjoyable. And it makes you shoot around the play field. It's got different targets to hit that are lit. I just remember being very fun to shoot. You have to shoot around the play field to hit multiple shots. It's not just a single shot over and over.
    70:42
    But that's pretty much what I got. Okay, too much red in your game of Tri-Zone. It's a good shooting game, I will agree with that, but way... The artwork is terrible on that game. It is just... It doesn't do anything for you.
    70:59
    Is that a System 4 or is that System 6? Probably 4. It probably is 4. so you're limited with the architecture and the rules on that. But it is a good shooter, but it's not no Harlem. It really isn't. Done.
    71:14
    My rebuttal on Harlem Globetrotters, it does not have Metal Ark Lemon in it. The most famous Globetrotter of all, and he's not in the game.
    71:22
    Fail. Probably licensing and money. No, he left the Globetrotters right before they made the game. So it's Valley's fault. Yeah, the guy that's in the center, the number 35, whatever, the dude in the center, he took over for Metal Ark Land.
    71:39
    Okay, that's all. Thanks for coming in today. Thanks for playing. Oh, and it's a six-digit game when it really needs to be seven digits because it can be too easy to roll over.
    71:48
    It wasn't then. How many more games? It was at least four or five more games before even we got the seven digits. Exactly. And I just rolled this over like two days ago. Too easy to roll over. If I'm doing it, it's too easy. the two games I played a lot as a kid Trizone is a lot of fun both games had terrible sound packages Trizone there's a lot more variety to what you're shooting whereas Hardline is just a narrow body paragon where you're either shooting drops or you're shooting that left spinner but it's an awesome game so I give it to Victory now wait a minute this game and a lot more shots, but I'm giving the other game the victory. Because those drop dockets are so dangerous, you're earning the right to build that spinner value. Yes.
    72:41
    Okay. Man, I'm not doing too well here. And you still need your wide body. Yeah, I think I shouldn't have picked Williams.
    72:50
    I think that was my mistake. What am I talking about? No, picking Williams was the right choice. I'm about to kick your ass. because I'm picking another game from the legendary Steve Ritchie. Oh, no. Stellar Wars. When Williams wanted to make a wide body, because Bally was making all those, they knew who to call. That Steve Ritchie guy, the guy who just made Flash, the guy who made two wide bodies at Atari. Who knew how to make a wide body? So he made Stellar Wars. Stellar Wars, a rousing success. Over 5,000 units sold. probably their best wide body of that era it has multiple it's got like a plunger shot where you have to make sure you plunge the right strength otherwise it comes all the way around right at your flippers so it just keeps you on your toes immediately has three banks of drop targets requires spelling we love spelling you get to spell Stellar Wars as a captive ball a saucer lanes an orbit with a spinner and yet through all this it has a regular bottom area the flippers are where you expect them to be there's nothing weird going on down there so it plays good for a wide body has acceptable art it's based off star wars obviously you know in a way stellar wars star wars i give you stellar wars i yield the floor okay i see your wide body and go with a better wide body future spa oh so you're gonna pick another wide body oh yeah baby future spa two flippers five pop bumpers you got only one slingshot because it doesn't need two that good two useless spinner targets oh nice that's shit uh a kick out hole of course inline drop targets again we have the weird four lane in lanes three in lanes and one out lane on the right hand side but the artwork and the rules make this game so much fun you have five upper in lanes just to spell out future you have the drop targets on the left hand side the only reason why you're going up the top is just to spell that future because the spinners are useless but the artwork keeps you in this game.
    75:20
    It's almost like a young Tim Sexton. Oh, did I say that name out loud? And the back glass with the cheesy mustache next to the girls. It is. I will say that. But Christensen artwork with Ferris also included. Good play field, good rule sets, better soundboard. They did go up to the 51 soundboard on this one.
    75:39
    I give you the future of pinball. Future Spa. I yield the floor. Okay. The back last lies to you. It tells you to only do two reps maximum. I mean, how's that going to build your muscles? Seriously. That's what it says on the one side.
    75:59
    As you said, two useless spinners, completely useless. And I believe you said three in lanes and one out lane. It's more like three out lanes and one in lane on the one side.
    76:09
    That you can make two-two. You make two-two, sorry. Yeah, two-two. Just because you don't know the own game. Just saying. I don't own it anymore. I owned it a long time ago. I still own one. Yeah. Again, very offensive artwork. I yield a four.
    76:25
    Stellar Wars. Just bad. It does nothing for me, this game. It's just, ugh. I know people made it okay, but it's just not a fun game. Williams Flippers.
    76:43
    I don't know. it's too wide of a game. I think Williams made the second widest wide bodies, if I remember correctly.
    76:52
    I think it was Gottlieb, then Williams, then... It was, it was. The second widest, it's just too wide. It's not fun to play. It's not comfortable to play. But when you get on a future spot, it's like a dream. It's like, God, they made Paragon and now they made this. It's even so good. I give you Future Spa I yield the floor Wow A Future Spa owner thinks Stellar Wars is too wide I know it is So If I were playing in a tournament I would definitely prefer Future Spa But I get bored to death playing that game For fun Whereas Stellar Wars you're at least forced to shoot Other things rather than inlines All day so I'm giving this one to Stellar Wars. Wow. You've redeemed yourself. You can come to work tomorrow.
    77:51
    As a kid, I would walk up to this game and slam the plunger as hard as I could to see how many spinner spins I can get out of it. That's a pretty good idea. I like that.
    78:00
    So let's see. My pick. Your pick. So it's 2-1. Let's see if we can get this tied. I'm going with the one of the most, actually the most sold game by Bally in 1979. It is the first Pimble Machine I have ever owned.
    78:22
    Oh, no. It is Kiss. Oh, God. Okay. Or as Ron likes to call them, Clowns. You want the best clowns, you got the best clowns. Yes. two flippers, four pop-bombers, two slingshots, eight stand-up targets.
    78:40
    You got a target bank on the left-hand side for your 2X multiplier and for also your extra ball. You got a detour gate for your outlaying.
    78:52
    Artwork you cannot beat with Kevin O'Connor. He knocked it out of the park with that one, and he knocked it out of the park later on.
    78:59
    Design, okay, not bad. You can get two different back glasses. Of course, with the German export and the regular American one. Used a different power supply than all the other Bally's, too, because it had so much goodness in it with the light boards.
    79:15
    First one was actually with the... For the Kiss song, I Want to Rock and Roll All Night. And actually, it was the first game with talking, but it was a prototype with speech, which was really cool. I give you kiss so you're saying the prototype had speech yes it did let me give you the first game that had speech which is my pick which is Gorgar Williams classic Gorgar the first talking game with seven words can anyone remember what the seven words are no one remembers the seven words not at all I'm trying to remember Gorgar beat me got you hurts. Speaks. There we go. There's all seven words. It has, the art is a masterpiece. Perhaps some of the best Williams early solid state art that's ever been done. I remember this was at a bar, tavern, back in the day before I ever played pinball. My father was the pinball player and They had a Gorgar in there. I just remember the back glass just was like, wow, look at that. Artwork is incredible. It has an awesome sound package with the thumping heartbeat, which everyone, I mean, you won't forget it once you hear that. It has the magnet. One of the first games with the use of the magnet, it stops the ball. Me got you. Me hurt. Has a passable rule set. He has spinners, stand-up targets. He's got the three drop targets in the middle. He's got the three other drop targets on the upper left for Gorgar. Three pop-upers. He's got your lanes. He's got the spinner eject hole on the left. Also a great game to practice your alley-passing skills on. Great sound package, great art package, an all-time Williams classic. They sold a ton of them. I give you Gorgar. How do you feel? the floor.
    81:27
    Yeah, not enough as many as Kiss, but, you know, close. It's a good try. Gorgard, he's got pretty good artwork, I'll give you that, but, you know, the rules are marginal. They are marginal.
    81:41
    That's all. That's all? That's all. Okay. Kiss, it's got passable art. It's got passable art. But, I mean, the sounds, Was that actually supposed to be playing a Kiss song?
    81:56
    Yes, it did. Really? Okay, I couldn't tell that was supposed to be playing a Kiss song, so they failed there in that execution.
    82:04
    The play field is very symmetrical play field, kind of the same stuff. It's got the two spinners on the top.
    82:14
    Not a ton of variety, in my opinion. I yield the floor. I'm going to take my time machine back to when I was a kid playing both of these games Gorgar had that awesome heartbeat background sound just the sound package everything was there I hated Kiss I thought it was like the worst game ever the sound package I didn't like the band Gorgar it is wow so good thing we did it this way because we're going to have to have a tiebreaker yes we will Ah, yes. Did I get to pick? Yes, you do. Oh, I don't. Let's see.
    82:56
    Oh, God. This sucks. Oh, my God. I either got to pick Laser Ball or Time Warp. One of those games I like. Ooh. Oh, God. I got to guess right here. I'm going to pick Time Warp. Classic. Okay, let me get a picture of the play field that we got on here.
    83:25
    I want to make sure I... You're not instilling me with confidence here. I'm just getting prepared. I'm just getting prepared here. He wasn't expecting you on the five games. You see that? No, that's not true. I just realized what games I had left. Now, Ron, let me say something right now. Are we talking banana flipper time warp or normal flipper time warp? I think what comes out of the factory. No, I'm talking normal flipper. You have to go without that coming out of the factory. Normal flipper, because that's what I played. All right. Time warp with normal flippers. I'm getting my pictures up here. I believe this is, is this Ausler? I believe it was. Banana flipper Ausler. Yeah. So the only reason this game was designed with regular flippers, the only reason it had the banana flippers on it is because it's what they had left over. from stock from Disco Fever. So this was meant to have regular flippers.
    84:19
    It has... But there's... Its back glass has probably the only instance of male genitalia ever on a back glass. Oh, my. Yeah. I don't know if that gives it points or not. I just thought I'd bring that up as a fact. Two sets of drop targets. It's got a saucer. It's got a lane on the right side. lanes on the top. I remember playing this with regular flippers, and I thought it was a very, very good game. Definitely it made a huge difference with the regular flippers in there. Standard, like, Williams sound package of the day. Artwork is kind of freaky. It's got, like, a little triangle thing with some dude reaching his hands out at you, kind of freaking you out. It's got, like, dinosaurs on it. I think there was some drug use going on at this particular art session. just a good playing early solid state Williams game I yield the four okay now I got a fun one now what do I pick of course we ignore Dolly Parton just ignore that Star Trek Super Sonic or Voltan yeah well Voltan it's an okay game Voltan it really is it's just an okay though It's a poor man's mystic. It is. You do get two spinners on it, though.
    85:44
    But the rules are so weird on it, too. It is a poor man's mystic. Yeah. Oh, God. It's so hard, this one. It's like, ugh. I'm going to have to go with it. I know people are going to think I'm weird. Super Sonic.
    86:00
    Another Greg Kermick, Kevin O'Connor combination game. I know it's basic. I know it's easy, you know, but you got the saucer up top, three multipliers. You got the one, two, three, four, five in lanes up top. You got the side, the left-hand side, where if the ball goes in there, you get the rollovers, which is kind of cool, but, you know, it's okay. Four drop targets on the side, great right spinner. That right spinner, you can hit all day and just crush it. You also have the gate on the right-hand side to save your ball, get it back to the shooter lane, which is really cool.
    86:36
    It is a carryover game from 76 Valley, an EM, but it is a great design. Artwork, you know, the Concord, you know, even though most of us, of course, never flew on one, it's just the, you know, the artwork of the supersonic is really cool. Cabinet artwork, not bad, you know, but it's an over-round. I think it's a good, solid game from Valley that they sold over 10,000 of these.
    87:03
    I yield the floor. All right. They're not called in lanes, Bruce. They're just lanes. Okay. Lanes. You keep calling them in lanes.
    87:12
    Pedestrian artwork. It brings you into the game. Into the game. Pedestrian artwork and very repetitive gameplay.
    87:20
    That's my rebuttal. Okay. And your game should have banana flippers on it. No straight flippers. The way it should be judged is what it came from the factory. Done. No, the way it was designed is how it should be judged. Nope. It's design, how it's shipped. It's like, you know, shipping a game with three legs. Hey, it was mine with three legs.
    87:43
    Sorry, Banana Flippers suck. It came with Banana Flippers. It made the game terrible. I will agree. If it was a regular Flipper game, it's a good game. Banana Flippers suck, and it makes the game terrible.
    87:56
    Mine is a regular Flipper game. No, it's not. It came in the factory. No. Bananas. No. And you're Bananas. Are you positive all of them came with banana flippers? Oh, I guarantee it. I would have said something like that, but I guarantee most of them did because they were trying to get rid of them. You know, Williams, look, they ordered too many cabinets for freaking Hyper Ball. So let's just keep on using those cabinets for four more games afterwards.
    88:22
    Well, Bally did the same thing at Rapid Fire. I know but still Hyper Ball was first Yeah that was my game They ripped me off again I yield the floor Here we go Wow Supersonic is a fun Game in a tournament I give it that Trying to plunge the middle lane And then go into town on the spinner The middle lane also opens the right gate Which if you use it unlights the spinner which is very cool.
    88:56
    My problem with the game is the entire left-hand side of the playfield. You don't do anything. I do like the shot to the saucer, the multiplier bonus.
    89:05
    Ah, Time Warp. I think that's actually a pretty fun game. If you're judging it with banana flippers though, then the nod goes to Supersonic.
    89:16
    How about if you're judging it with regular flippers? I would even say it, yes. Time Warp all day with regular flippers. Oh, yeah, definitely. But it came with bananas. Damn you, Disco Fever. You've ruined everything.
    89:29
    Time Warp is a really fun game. It is, actually. Honestly, if it's regular flippers, I enjoyed it. We still had one on location. A guy was routing it, and every time I go to it, it's like, please change the flippers. He's like, nope, it came with bananas. All right, so let me put this caveat out there. If somebody can disprove your theory that all of them came stock with banana flippers, then Ron wins. Okay. So you hear that, listeners? Come on. There's got to be some ex-Williams employees out there. Barry Osler, if you're listening. Maybe Duncan. Duncan might know. Yeah, he's in a story, and he might know it. Yeah, there you go. Actually, I would take Duncan's word over anybody else's. There you go.
    90:13
    And you took Duncan because you bought your Stargazer from him. So, Kate, were you the one that said on Sea Witch, change the upper right flipper to like a Williams flipper bat? Yes. Yeah. That was me. Yeah. Both upper flippers. I did that on my father's and it does make a difference. You can actually shoot the left orbit from the bottom right flipper, so yeah, it's a no-brainer to me. Yeah. Is there any other mods that you know that you would recommend to some people? There you go. Keith's mods. Please do this to your game. Jeez. Ah, off the top of my head, no. Fail. There goes that segment. Wow, that was a short segment. Short-lived segment.
    90:56
    I can't think of... I try not to modify games too much from factory. That includes LEDs. Good point. Oh, there you go. You're Bruce's hero. Wait a second. You've been around Belsita so long, you should know some of his mods.
    91:12
    Oh, yes. Oh, my God. He can mod anything and make it terribly hard. Yeah, how he just removes ramps. There you go.
    91:23
    Or just move over in lane. Let's drill that new hole and move that in lane over a little bit so I can't feed properly. I did have a tournament at my house where I had too many tournaments going. One was on ACDC with banana flippers, and the other was jackpot with two-inch flippers. Everybody loved the jackpot one because that center post comes into play a lot, so it was actually fairly playable. But the banana flippers, no, nobody likes them. No, I totally agree. You couldn't hit a loop to save your life. I can imagine.
    91:57
    All right, I have a question. This is more involved. This is a designer question. All right. I'm going to give you a game, my dream theme game, and you tell me what kind of things that you would put on the play field for it. Now, don't worry, this is a game that will never get made by CERN. because no one's picking this up. And MTV owns the license, and they're incompetent. So this would never happen anyway. You could probably guess me and I said MTV what it probably is.
    92:28
    We're on to baseball. Yeah, there you go. So you've gotten the Beavis and Butthead license. And, more importantly, Mike Judge is on board. So you basically have all the voices you need. What do you design? What has to be on the play field?
    92:48
    Burger World Scoop. We've got to have the, I don't know what they call it, wherever they buy their nachos. Oh, it's not Quickie Mark, Maxi Mark. Yeah, whatever that is. You've got to have the Big Bully Todd, kind of like Party Zone style.
    93:09
    What else? Well, you've got to have a TV to start your modes. That's a no-brainer. There you go. LCD works well.
    93:17
    Yeah, yeah. So it's going to have modes. Like, what kind of modes? Like, I'm thinking, what would be the end game? Nacho Frenzy. There's Frog Baseball.
    93:29
    There's Don't Choke. That was a good one. Was it Tainted Meat? That was another classic. Oh, God. Yikes.
    93:43
    Yeah, I don't know. I actually haven't watched the series in so long. So I actually came up with the design for Beavis and Butthead Pinball many years ago. Ooh. I actually came across the notes when I was moving. I was like, what is this? And it was like, oh, it had some modes outlined. And, yeah, it was always one of my favorite shows. Be like, take my money. Take my money.
    94:05
    Take my own money. So do you go on Pinside a lot? Not a lot, but I go in there, yeah. Okay. I didn't know if you tried to stay away from that. Oh, no. No, that's fine. Okay. I mean, I've been in pinball my whole life, so I'm not going to suddenly stop doing things because I'm in the industry now. Okay. As an aircraft repair guy. Yes.
    94:33
    I'm just thinking tainted meat. I said, can you get me out? Oh, God. I mean, do you realize what happened in that episode? You probably don't know Bruce. No, I don't. They work at Burger World. And let's just say Beavis has an itch in a certain area. Oh, no. And he's itching there while he's preparing food. And people start getting sick at Burger World.
    94:57
    So I don't know. You put that in a mug. Yikes. Oh, God. So my favorite episodes were always with Mr. Anderson. Of course. What the hell? Yeah, I'd be in the game. Definitely. 100%. Damn it. Get that barrel of crap off my porch.
    95:17
    Get to pruning. Now remember, it's not what you cut, it's what you don't cut. That guy is great. They just have him standing there, and he's just like, smoking a cigarette, puts it down, drink beer, cigarette, beer, cigarette, beer.
    95:33
    Yikes. Or they dig in the swimming pool, and they use the tractor. Yep. Yep, because it's faster, and then it gets stuck in there, and then the cement dries. and he's still in the store getting uh what was he getting spanish pile because he can't have it at the bfw yeah you know looking for spanish tile from out cabana it's such a brilliant show just you're thinking you know when i talk about it oh yeah what is it just this lowbrow humor but things like he's searching for spanish town for his cabana in the big Home Depot store. He gets lost. Store closes down. He's still in there. And then they pan back, and you see the parking lot, and you see his pickup truck getting towed. Just the little details like that just didn't take it to the next level. Yeah, even the movie was great. The movie was way better than it's supposed to be. I couldn't believe how good the movie was. Yeah, yeah. I was like, how could they drag this out to an hour and a half? And they did. They did. Mike Judge is awesome. That's a dream team of mine, too. Office space.
    96:35
    We'll do a Mike Judge combo. There you go. Oh, my God. That'd be freaking awesome. That would be awesome.
    96:42
    But MTV's incompetent, so that license would never be available. It wouldn't be relevant at this point anyway, unfortunately.
    96:49
    Yeah. So what do you think of colored DMD, Keith? I just ordered one today. Good boy. What for, if you don't mind me asking? My Attack from Mars one died, so I figured I might as well upgrade. There you go. I'm actually excited that they're going to be hopefully releasing the 192x64 Baywatch love Baywatch is awesome that game, it's like wow, look at all the shots in this game I keep thinking it's a widebody right? and it's not, it's just totally packed it is it's just the shark fin flipper thing which although it is cool I don't know, it seems like it just puts the ball out of control half the time I use the thing and it drains anyway, so I don't know if that's... I don't know. Just let it drain. No, let it go down into the in-lane and then, you know, at least have somewhat control. Right? It goes down, right? If you don't flip with it, it goes straight down, right? Yeah, I think you're right. No, I think it cleans the in-lane kind of like thing. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so that's... I was like, no, so you can never shoot the left ramp because the flippers aren't strong enough. Oh, no. Same with Batman Forever. All those large format display games are all underpowered. I agree. Maverick's not bad. Maverick's probably the best strength shooting-wise. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Batman was the worst. Oh, God. Some of those side shots, you just want to not even worry about it, you know? It's like, okay, whatever, just ignore that shot. Just let it come somewhere else.
    98:21
    Is there any games you truly hate? Besides Alvar? Algar is just, you know, I'm going to have to ignore your opinion of that one. Like, if you see a bank, let's say if you had a bank that had this game in it, you would avoid it completely. Well, better yet, what's your worst Pinbird bank? What would be the, like, oh, my God, this is horrible. Oh, you're forgetting I did that one year. Yeah, you did. And Airborne, Ready Aim Fire, LG Garage Band, whatever one that was. Oh, yes. World Tour. Yeah. I forget.
    99:01
    Oh, Dragon. Ooh. I got those. Yeah. That game relies entirely of top rollovers making bumpers worth way too much.
    99:14
    Okay. That's good. What kind of things do you look for in a rule set? Like you stated with the game you're working on now, which we know is Goldman Girls, but you're actually doing the rules. Yes. So what kind of rules do you like in a game? What kind of rules do you not like in a game? My perfect rule set of any modern game is Walking Dead, where you're never out of a match because Lyman programmed that to say, hey, you can do this and this with this, and you're right back in the game. plus you can get to the end within a half an hour. To me, that's important.
    99:51
    What kind of rule set would you not like? I don't like, you know, to me, four or five modes is perfect. If you make those four or five modes fun, you know, you can tackle them different ways, different strategies. To me, that's a lot more fun than 18 of the exact same mode.
    100:10
    Not that I'm dropping any hints on what that game is, but. So you don't sound like a person that really likes linear rules. No, I do not. Okay. I also do not like games where you're plunged and you're in a mode. I hate that.
    100:28
    So you want to have to qualify it or do something to start it. Yeah, to me, if you do that, that means if you're not in a mode, then you're not doing anything. So I want to make the base game rules fun, whereas, hey, I don't want to do a mode. I want to do this for a while, or I want to do that for a while and not have it be totally worthless.
    100:46
    All right. Does everything have to be a mode? No. That's one of the things I liked about ACDC is there's really, it's not a mode-based game, which was kind of different from most of the games I played in that era. It was just like, I mean, there is encore. You have songs. Yeah. And you have encore. But I'm not good enough to ever see that. So I have the whole, how big can I get the song jackpot? Yes. And that's the appeal to me. That's what, you know, especially when you get 2X, 3X running and you hit that thing, and it's just such a huge number, you know, depending on where you are on the game, the knocker goes off because you already got a free game because it's so huge. I love that. So I was kind of bored of pinball in those days. You know, in the old days I would go, I'd play two, three hours, keep pressing start. But it had been many years, and then ACDC came out, and it brought back those memories. I just kept hitting start. Even if I just played a half-hour long game, I just kept hitting start. And so ACDC was my first new in-box purchase, the one I actually purchased ever. Everything else I have won. So that's what ACDC means to me. I'm bummed it's in California because I really want it here. I'll tell you, it was the one and only game that I played within three or four games. I said to myself, I'm probably going to buy this. Yeah, it just has that effect on you. So, and like, I don't know, I think the industry might be shooting itself in the foot a little bit with rule depth and complexity for, you know, the bar patron. I think we're kind of in a circle that the 90s created, where they went from simple games to complex games, whereas the established people love the complex games, but it stares off the new people. So then you get this gap, and now you're seeing the people, you know, in the 90s who loved the complex games, they're loving these new rule sets. But if you go to a bar and see what games are getting played, it's still Addams Family and all the other simple games.
    102:48
    Which is so funny to hear that coming from you when I think of someone who knows how to figure out complex rule sets. You're one of the first people I would think of. Yeah, I mean, like I said, for me, it's great. I love bringing on these complex rule sets. But as an operator, you know, I see what's this button do? You know, what's this do? What am I supposed to do here? Or why am I making decisions? Oh, there's a ball save, but I didn't know it. Or there's a bank of targets with RGB lights in front of them and they're all different colors. You know, I can't even figure that stuff out. You know, how is a casual player going to figure that out?
    103:20
    So, yeah, I just think it needs to be a balance. You can satisfy both markets. Lyman usually does a perfect job of that. Like Batman, he's like, okay, yeah, use your four things, do that. But beyond that, there's a lot more depth to it. and even ACDC, as you said, yeah, you know, all the modes are pretty much the same, but they're all different enough to the expert player. Like Ron said, he's like, oh, yeah, I can use this, you know, the tour, song bonus, whatever it is, and then a multiball. So there's enough there for the expert player, but for the casual player, it's like, oh, yeah, this is like right in front of my face. I get it.
    103:54
    Now, you know what, back, of course, when Williams was whodunit in a couple of the Sega games, they had the time play or, you know, the limited balls for a minute and a half or two minutes. Who doesn't have that? Yes, it does. It does? Yes. Really? Yes. Is that a setting? It is a setting. Damn. I owned a game and I didn't know that. Okay. Yep. What did you think of that? You know, if you're talking like an operator, trying to keep people playing and getting more into it, what did you think of that?
    104:23
    I'm not sure I've ever operated a game with one of those features. Okay. But, again, if you're asking them to make a decision, and to me that's death to a pinball machine. you just want to enjoy it and hopefully if the game is good enough it should work on its own merits yes because people you know they press start they want to pull the plunger they're not going to read instructions they're not going to do anything like that gotcha like I said the collector the players like us we want this complexity it's such a balancing act of selling to the home market versus designing to the operator market. It is. It seems like the rule of thumb is a lot of the games is like have a cool bash toy so everyone can understand that. There's this big thing in front of me. Hit it. Something like Iron Man. Iron Man actually probably is one of the simpler rule sets for its era.
    105:25
    There's a lot of people who really like that game. It's just like But it's easy to understand. You have the different characters. You have Bonger. You have War Machine. You have Whiplash. You have the ramps. I mean, there's not much to it, but I love that game. Yeah. To me, what you were saying before, Keith, about how the game keeps you going back and you want to keep on making starts, that is the first game, I think, in the longest time, Iron Man, where, God, this thing kicks my ass, but I've got to play it again. The funny thing about that, though, if you go in the Wayback Machine, when that game came out. Oh, it was panned. It was panned to hell because it was going to be too simple. Because you had, I believe it was NBA before that and Big Buck Hunter. And then this comes out.
    106:12
    It might have been before Big Buck Hunter. But this comes out and it's like, oh, my God, this is stripped down. This is ridiculously simple. Where's all the stuff on the play field? Where's all the modes? Where's all this? where's all that? And it was panned. Yes. It was panned a lot because it recycled Austin Power. Oh, yeah. Well, Austin Power, it's the most recycled game ever. Yeah. You have the Monger is the, what, Dr. Evil dude. You have the Time Machine was the ring. Yeah. And then you have the crossbow is the crossbow.
    106:45
    So, and I actually like Austin Powers. I don't think it's that bad a game. Yeah, I don't either. It's tough to find one that plays good. Usually the one at Papa's the only one I ever played where I could actually hit all the ramps. Yeah. And everything worked. And the spinner thing is always the, what is it, the little guy there. Mini-me. He was always broken, like his feet were always broken off on the thing.
    107:08
    That's something I'd like to see return. Like some kind of custom mech where, you know, usually a spinner is a spinner, but in that game it's like an actual figurine thing.
    107:19
    You know, something like that I think would add a little. A toy. Yeah. Yeah, or, you know, the more custom something, like on Simpsons, you have the pop-upers, but they're the little silos, the nuclear silos. Little things like that I think are cool. That it's like, oh, it's still just a pop-up, but, hey, it's got this thing on top of it. It gives it a little more personality. I don't know. I know that brings up the cost.
    107:44
    That is the cool thing I thought about Iron Man is it's effectively, it's very effective, but it's super simple, is the whiplash magnet.
    107:53
    If you look at that, it's like, why are these two targets here? And you shoot that, it's like, oh, that's actually kind of cool. Works really well. Yeah. It makes the game brutally hard sometimes. It depends on how strong the magnets are and how they're whipping down or anything like that. But, oh, the game just makes you want to play more. Yeah. The only thing about it, though, is you've got to have it set up hard. Yes. Oh, yeah. If it's set up too easy. I played one that was set up super easy one time, and it did get boring.
    108:22
    When you can hit everything and there's no danger. 7.5 degrees. That's my motto. Well, it might have been on five ball and had in lanes all the way in and tons of rubber everywhere, and you couldn't drain. You know, the vault edition, the default out lanes was lower than the original, what they shipped with. Didn't I know that? Yeah. Hmm. I did not know that. I knew, like, in the original run, they moved the right ramp over a bit because it kept draining down the center. Yeah. People go halfway up and it would drain down the center, so they moved it a tad to fix that problem. I think the Papa one is the original run, I swear. And then they added the sticker to the monger thing. It said, like, spinners raise monger or whatever the hell it says. That got added later. Well, again, because it's not obvious. Yeah. No. No, it's not obvious. It's a modern pinball thing where not everything is obvious.
    109:21
    Are we done, Mr. Ron? I think we've taken enough of his time. But I'd say I can't wait for Golden Girls. I cannot wait either. I was so psyched when I found Betty White. You got her in to do the custom speech. I know. God, it would be great. How many pages of the script did she read? She got through two-thirds of it and walked off.
    109:41
    Wow, okay. I hope you got what you needed there. okay are you going to have thank you for being a friend in it or was that a separate license yeah I gotta admit I know nothing about Golden Girls so oh my god he's ruined our whole gimmick oh my god I'm dead edit oh man well thank you for joining us sir thank you Keith No problem. You have fun at work. Yeah, I got to hit the pinball mines in the morning, so I got to go. Okay, man. Thank you again for coming out. And thanks for picking my game, at least one of them.
    110:27
    We're going to have to have a talk. Your competition is still open. You just got to prove those things ship with those. Okay. All right. At some point during the run, make sure they didn't change. Yeah, Mr. Alishler or Duncan. Duncan would be the one. alright thank you Keith thank you very much Keith alright thanks guys see ya and that was Mr. Keith Elwin this is our special edition show that's why we didn't go much into the news or anything like that and Keith for coming on he blew our cover with the Golden Girls thing now oh god it sucks now oh man you had me going the whole time I could have swore it was Golden Girls I thought it was I was already pre I already put my deposit down. You too?
    111:16
    Now I don't know what to do. I'm going to have to call my distributor. I know. God. And who's our Stern distributor? Mike Pupo. Flipper Fidelity. Hi, Mike. Go to him for all your Stern purchases and your best Stern sound systems. Any sound system. And don't forget, if you want to go with another pinball company out there. Yes, sir. There is? Is there? There is. You go with Pinball Star for your JJP, your Chicago Gaming, your American Pinball.
    111:52
    Anything else? Spooky. That's right. There you go. And let's say hi to all of our favorite podcasts because, you know. Well, first, hi, Zach. Hi, Zach. Hi, Steve Bowden. Follow bonus.
    112:06
    And don't forget the pinball lifter. Yes. Use your brain, not your back. And don't forget the Silver Ball Saloon, which in a couple weeks we have a big tournament coming up. We do? We do. What's the web address for Silver Ball Saloon?
    112:23
    TheSilverBallSaloon.com, or you can check us out on Facebook, The Silver Ball Saloon. And on March 10th, we have Stomp West. At the Silver Ball Saloon with guest appearances we're going to be having. Okay. Who's the guest appearances? You're bringing him all the way from Albany, I heard. Oh, okay, yes. George Takei will be there. I might just bring George Takei because Bob Ross is quite big. Oh, my. Yes, he is much taller than George Takei. Oh, my.
    112:57
    I think we need to put the song back on. Nothing has come from that allegation anymore. That's true. We haven't heard anything. And that was put together by one of our listeners. or he's suggested by one of our listeners. Yep, so I think we bring it on back. You think that you bring it on back? I think we need to bring it on back. You know what? Let's make that a poll.
    113:19
    Okay. There you go. I didn't do the last poll. Yeah, you didn't do any of the polls you said you were going to do in the other episode. I did the one. You failed miserably. But do a poll. Should we bring back the Oh My My song? Mm-hmm. Oh, well, no. We already have the Oh My My song. The Oh My song. So what kind of format is this? This is a four hours of match play with an hour break afterwards and then finals. Finals will depend on how many players we have signed up, but we already have, I think, 10 pre-signed up. And you can still sign up. You can pre-sign up until the 24th of February for $15 or you pay $20 at the door. You can pre-sign up. You can sign up before you sign up. Did I sign up? Signed up. Okay. I think you did. Yeah, I think I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I did. I remember I PayPal'd you. Yes, you did. Okay. And it will be filmed. The Miles will be filmed again. On the Slam Tilt Podcast Twitch page. Yep. So we'll try to keep you all abreast of what's going on. I will make sure I bring a longer Ethernet cable. Very good. Mr. Bucci asked me for something today Actually, the past week he's been asking me And I finally got it done today for him Our former guest, Chris Bucci Yep, which we want to get back on soon He asked me for some pictures of my Monopoly Because he's trying to do an article for about one company That pushed for that Monopoly For my Monopoly, my special Monopoly What's so special about your Monopoly, Bruce? Mine's a Platinum One of 40 Ooh, one of 40. Does it have a special, like, plaque or something? It does. So I took the artwork. I took pictures of the plaque. And the original receipt and also the special back glass that's written and autographed by Gary Stern, Pat Lawler, and John Yossi.
    115:21
    Maybe we'll be seeing that soon enough in one of his videos, which he does a great job of videotaping. Yes, he does. Are we going to say hi to some of our podcasts out there? Of course we are. We have This Whippin' Podcast. We have Brody Weaven Podcast. We have the Pinball Players Podcast. We have Pinball Profile. Hi, Jeff Teolis. We have Head to Head Podcast, which I did listen to the episode with the Google lady. Oh, my fucking God. Is that fucking funny? That was absolutely fucking hilarious. Oh my god Hardest I've ever laughed listening to a pinball podcast I actually had to fucking pull over I would highly recommend anyone listen to that It was episode 30 Episode 30 Listen to it and enjoy Are we missing any other podcasts? I think that's Yeah I think that's it The Eclectic Gamers podcast And Canadian Pinball Podcast and let's not forget this week in pinball which for this special Keith Allen episode we did not have the news handy so no other than the ACDC code which will be old news by the time this airs old hat if you'd like to send us correspondence we can be reached at slam till podcast at gmail.com this has been the slam till podcast episode 79 which you're probably going to say oh didn't episode 80 air last week Yes, we have recorded these in a different order without realizing that issue. We suck. We suck, yeah. We probably should have said episode 80 at the beginning of this, then it would have made more sense. But who cares? Half the people said it doesn't matter anyway, but we fucked up. Godzilla rage again. The second Godzilla, which is now the Godzilla everyone knows. It's weird. I told you, he's a fucking salamander. He's a salamander. God. Oh, I'm tired. Say goodbye, Bruce. Goodbye, Kenny Pantene.
    117:54
    life.