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Ep 45: Year of the Yeti with Jeremy Packer

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 39m·analyzed·Oct 3, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Jeremy Packer discusses managing three concurrent game releases while maintaining artistic integrity across licensed themes.

Summary

Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti), Stern Pinball's renowned artist, discusses his unprecedented workload in the "Year of the Yeti" where he completed Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Avengers, and has three more games in production. He details the accelerated Avengers schedule (January–February completion), his artistic approach to licensing (softening his style for TMNT's curvilinear '87 aesthetic, managing Derek Riggs influence on Iron Maiden), and his philosophy of turning down projects where he feels he cannot add meaningful value.

Key Claims

  • Jeremy Packer has three more games coming out this year in addition to Turtles and Avengers.

    high confidence · Jeremy Packer directly stated: 'There's I've got three more games coming out this year yet.'

  • Marvel wanted Jeremy Packer specifically for Avengers after initial schedule negotiations failed, with George Gomez calling to relay that Marvel rejected all other artist candidates.

    high confidence · Jeremy Packer recounted: 'George Gomez called and said Marvel won't accept anyone else, can you do it? Started January 1st, finished end of February.'

  • Jeremy Packer deliberately softened his angular artistic style for Turtles to preserve the '87 series' curvilinear character design.

    high confidence · Jeremy explained: 'One of the most identifiable characteristics of that era was they were almost primarily curvilinear forms... I had to soften my hand a bit.'

  • Jeremy Packer has turned down multiple projects including Star Wars comic because he felt he couldn't add meaningful artistic value.

    high confidence · Jeremy stated: 'I turned down doing the Star Wars comic version... because I knew I couldn't add anything to it.'

  • Avengers artwork has only two backglass design variations due to time constraints.

    high confidence · Jeremy noted: 'That's why we only have, you know, two different backglass designs, translite designs' due to the compressed timeline.

  • Jeremy's daughter, an illustrator, helped ink and color the TMNT topper during Avengers production.

    high confidence · Jeremy stated: 'My oldest daughter, who is also an illustrator... had her ink and color the TMNT topper.'

  • Jeremy Packer was heavily influenced by comic artists Todd McFarlane and Norm Breyfogle, particularly Breyfogle's Detective Comics work.

    high confidence · Jeremy discussed his inspirations: 'Todd McFarlane... was revelatory' and 'I probably have more influence from Breyfogle's short run than anything else.'

  • Marvel licensing requires distinct eras (e.g., X-Men, Spider-Man are separate licenses from core Avengers), limiting character inclusion on Avengers pinball.

Notable Quotes

  • “There's I've got three more games coming out this year yet.”

    Jeremy Packer @ ~2:35 — Confirms unprecedented production volume beyond Turtles and Avengers, central to 'Year of the Yeti' narrative.

  • “I didn't have any changes throughout the process. They loved everything, which is great. Between you and me, I wish I would have had a little more time to flesh some things out.”

    Jeremy Packer @ ~5:20 — Reveals tension between Marvel approval speed and artistic perfectionism; justifies design constraints (two backglass variations).

  • “I was done in, I started January 1, finished maybe towards the end of February, something like that.”

    Jeremy Packer @ ~6:10 — Quantifies compressed Avengers timeline (2 months for full artwork production), explains why assistance from daughter couldn't extend to Avengers.

  • “I had to kind of soften my hand a bit. And that was kind of difficult, believe it or not.”

    Jeremy Packer @ ~8:45 — Articulates deliberate artistic compromise for TMNT licensing authenticity, demonstrates flexibility across projects.

  • “I turned down doing the Star Wars comic version. Um, and it's not because I don't love Star Wars, but it's because I knew I couldn't add anything to it.”

    Jeremy Packer @ ~27:30 — Reveals selective project acceptance philosophy; indicates high personal standards for artistic contribution alignment.

  • “Iron Maiden, I said throughout, was going to be the last pinball machine I ever worked on... And I remember telling Greg that almost every day.”

    Jeremy Packer @ ~13:00 — Shows anxiety over Derek Riggs homage authenticity; demonstrates pattern of self-doubt despite external recognition.

  • “Making myself miserable is really the secret to all of my success. I am very neurotic and I have a tremendously difficult time liking anything I do until I've gotten very far away from it.”

    Jeremy Packer @ ~10:45 — Reveals personality-driven creative process; explains perfectionism underlying consistent quality output.

Entities

Jeremy PackerpersonScott LarsonpersonJosh RooppersonGeorge GomezpersonKeith (Elwin)personMarvelcompanyStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Jeremy Packer confirmed three additional games in production beyond Turtles and Avengers for 2024, indicating significant Stern pipeline acceleration.

    high · Direct quote: 'There's I've got three more games coming out this year yet.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Jeremy adapts his signature angular, saturated-color style to serve licensing requirements (curvilinear TMNT, Riggs-influenced Iron Maiden), demonstrating flexibility while maintaining recognizable output.

    high · Jeremy explained softening his hand for TMNT's '87 aesthetic and obsessing over Derek Riggs homage authenticity on Iron Maiden.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Marvel demanded accelerated Avengers timeline despite initial requests for schedule flexibility; George Gomez intervention suggests high IP priority and artist leverage.

    high · George Gomez call after holidays: 'Marvel really wants you to do this... they won't accept everyone else' with compressed schedule starting January 1st.

  • ?

    code_update: Avengers artwork completed with zero revision requests from Marvel, unusual for licensed property; suggests either exceptional first-draft execution or streamlined approval process.

    medium · Jeremy stated: 'I didn't have any changes throughout the process. They loved everything,' completed from January 1 to end of February.

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Marvel maintains distinct licensing silos (X-Men, Spider-Man separate from Avengers core); affects character roster and creative restrictions on Avengers pinball.

    medium · Jeremy explained: 'X-Men are a different license... Spider-Man is his own license... areas that don't cross over.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.298

0:00
thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast we are on episode 45 and my with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott let's talk about our friends of the podcast before we get into our awesome guests this evening all right so let's run through quickly uh first off we have mike lund at beehive pinball if you're looking for repro uh play fields right now he's doing stars So check it out at Beehive Pinball. Next, we have Brad at Lit Frames. So if you want to illuminate that awesome trans light, go ahead and check out Lit Frames. I have a few of them myself, and they make your frame much better when you have the – you want to decorate your pinball room, basically. Also, Flyland Designs. I have the alternative, the licensed alternative Medieval Madness in my game, and it provides a fun alternative to the excellent original. He also has Monster Bash, and he has Attack from Mars. So go ahead and check those out. And if you want to buy a lit frame and put them in there, it's a great way of displaying that. Also, This Week in Pinball, all your pinball needs, please check out This Week in Pinball and get the rundown on the latest in pinball. Also, last and certainly not least, please check out Flippin' Out Pinball. If you're looking for a new machine, please contact Zach and Nicole, and they will help you out. And Josh, who do we have on the podcast today? Okay, before we get into our guest, I'm going to hurry and say this up front before I forget. Okay. Drew and Ian gave us a challenge on their show. If you did not watch Poor Man's Pinball podcast on Facebook Live on Monday, you can listen to their podcast. because usually release it later. But Drew, thank you for the challenge, but we're going to pass. If you want to hear the stories, we'll message you, but we're not talking about the stories online or on our podcast.
1:59
Yeah, yeah. There's no chance we're going to tell you the weirdest things that happen in Utah. You can just Google them. And by the way, they usually happen every three years that we get national news for some sort of weird thing. Yeah. Like my town specifically, there's a gentleman that tried to pay his whole entire bill in pennies because he was mad at the hospital. And so he showed up with a wheelbarrow full of pennies. There's that. But that's not the weird year we're looking for. So we're not going to discuss that. Okay, but also one of my professors in college was actually – he was murdered for his guns, and those guys happen to be from Vernal. Yes. Oh, my goodness. You've got to remind me. I've got a story to tell you about that. Oh, my goodness. OK, we don't have time for that story, but you need to remind me. Is he your third cousin on your on your mother's side? No, no. But it's a little bit of a story, but it is. You'll find it hilarious. Not in the context of what happened. OK, yeah, just OK. All right. Sounds good. so all right i'm gonna i'm gonna introduce our awesome guest this evening uh this man his artwork has redefined what artwork should be in pinball from the last five years he has set a standard so high it's hard for others to accomplish and and he's one of the most uh reserved and nicest gentlemen we've met we have with us jeremy packard aka zombie yeti well now come on guys that that's a little bit much. Um, uh, hello. We just called as we see it.

medium confidence · Jeremy explained: 'X-Men are a different license... there are distinctions, lines drawn in the sand... areas that don't cross over.'

  • Jeremy Packer experienced accelerated Avengers production with minimal revision cycles from Marvel approval.

    high confidence · Jeremy stated: 'I didn't have any changes throughout the process. They loved everything' and completed first sketch within first week of January 1st start.

  • Jeff Patterson (This Week In Pinball host) and Jeremy Packer attended the same high school; Patterson's father taught classes and coached.

    high confidence · Jeremy mentioned discovering connection when discussing high school backgrounds with Jeff Patterson.

  • “There's lines drawn in the sand, like the X-Men are a different license, right? Spider-Man is his own license.”

    Jeremy Packer @ ~17:40 — Clarifies Marvel IP compartmentalization affecting Avengers character roster; explains absence of Spider-Man, X-Men.

  • “I'll do every pencil, every sketch up front, get it approved. I'll then move to ink and then I'll then move to color at the end.”

    Jeremy Packer @ ~15:30 — Details systematic three-phase workflow (sketch/ink/color) repeated across entire project; explains compounding stress iterations.

  • “You can fake it till the cows come home with artwork... but there's a difference between that and oozing passion.”

    Josh Roop (host) @ ~26:00 — Identifies community perception that Jeremy's work demonstrates genuine thematic passion rather than commercial work-for-hire.

    • Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (TMNT)
    game
    Avengersgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Deadpoolgame
    Primusgame
    Derek Riggsperson
    Todd McFarlaneperson
    Norm Breyfogleperson
    Jeff Pattersonperson
    Zachperson
    Joe Lemireperson
    Robert Downey Jr.person
    Jon Favreauperson
    Loser Kid Pinball Podcastorganization
    Flippin' Out Pinballorganization
    This Week In Pinballorganization
  • ?

    personnel_signal: Jeremy Packer's daughter (also illustrator) assisted with TMNT topper inking/coloring during Avengers concurrent production; indicates family collaboration and knowledge transfer.

    high · Jeremy: 'My oldest daughter, who is also an illustrator... had her ink and color the TMNT topper.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Jeremy employs distinct three-phase workflow (sketch→ink→color for entire project, not per-piece) creating compounding approval stress; reveals systematic vs. iterative methodology.

    high · Jeremy detailed: 'I'll do every pencil, every sketch up front... then ink... then color' across entire project before moving to next phase.

  • ?

    community_signal: Community perception of Jeremy's work as 'oozing passion' rather than work-for-hire; suggests fandom alignment drives appreciation beyond technical execution.

    high · Host observation: passion visible in project selection (Turtles, Primus) correlates with audience appreciation despite compressed timelines.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jeremy systematically declines projects (e.g., Star Wars comic) where he cannot meaningfully contribute, indicating selective positioning vs. volume-based output.

    high · Jeremy: 'I turned down doing the Star Wars comic version... because I knew I couldn't add anything to it.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Jeremy demonstrates persistent self-doubt and neurotic perfectionism despite universal community recognition; describes making himself miserable as success methodology.

    high · Jeremy: 'Making myself miserable is really the secret to all my success... I have a tremendously difficult time liking anything I do.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Loser Kid Pinball Podcast episode generates community engagement (Joe Lemire message about Avengers details) and corrects host misunderstandings via audience feedback.

    medium · Joe Lemire messaged about Adam Warlock on lower playfield, clarifying host's earlier confusion about Infinity War comic era.

  • ?

    machine_intel: Stern has at least five games in active production timeline: Turtles (complete), Avengers (complete), plus three unannounced titles with Jeremy Packer art direction.

    medium · Jeremy confirmed 'three more games coming out this year yet' without IP names disclosed.

    • 3:38
    Uh, no, no, that's very kind, but, uh, I don't know how, uh, how, how, uh, honest, honest it is. Uh, I thought you guys were a bunch of honest gentlemen and now you start lying.
    3:49
    Um, Hey, no, no, it's quick, real quick. Uh, so, so, uh, you know, your little, uh, your, your little plugs there uh uh two things one did you know that this week in pinball that the jeff patterson guy do you know we went to the same high school and his dad his dad taught uh uh some classes i think it was i can't remember what i know he also coached uh i think basketball um but i never i never knew i never knew him uh but like in in school like i didn't know jeff But it was funny because we talked one time, it's been a couple of years ago, and put it together as we were both talking about like our high schools. And it was kind of ironic and strange, to say the least. Sorry, I just had to throw that out there. Right now, the only thing I'm imagining is the coach from the Goldbergs with those, you know, those like weird spandex shorts that all the gym teachers wore in like 1988. Oh, yeah, no, it's probably not that far off. I remember he had a mustache. That much I remember. His dad. His dad did. He didn't. Maybe he did. I don't know. But his dad. Yeah. And there was one other plug you had that I had a story about, too, but I forgot about it because I got sidetracked Googling strange things in Utah. So I'm sorry.
    5:12
    Well, we had the Stars play field. We had the lit frames. We had the Flyland designs. I mean, come on. Flippin' Out Pinball. We have all sorts of stuff. Oh, yeah. Flippin' Out. I just wanted to say thank you guys. I think Zach and his business need a little bit more radio time, podcast time.
    5:31
    He doesn't get enough. Hi, Zach. How's it going? That man is everywhere. I don't know what he's doing to promote himself, but he is doing great.
    5:43
    Hardest working man in pinball for promotions, for sure. And the smiliest, too. That guy, he smiles and he makes you smile when he smiles. I agree. Remind me to tell you a story about Zach. No, I'm just kidding.
    5:57
    Oh, bring it on. We want to hear it all. No, actually, I do have one, ironically, but we'll save that for later. But no, it's a positive one. It's just one that I don't, you know, I don't want to. Zach doesn't want his bad name tarnished with good material. Well, no, no. Actually, he just happened to be there. The story's not really about him.
    6:18
    Okay, it's because he has a third nipple, isn't it? You know about that? Is yours on your inner elbow like mine is? Yeah. Actually, well, okay, so legitimately what they do is they follow the same line where your actual nipples are.
    6:34
    That's true. Yeah, we had someone who we had to remove them because she didn't know she had a third nipple until she had a baby and it started lactating.
    6:45
    Oh. Yeah. So it was functional. Well, what they do is they usually look like bumps, like a mole or something. And so that's just why it's funny. Anyway. Wow. So, you know, all the fun things that you know about extra nipples, you can find them on Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. I'm sorry I led us down this direction. I apologize. I got us off track. That's totally fine.
    7:13
    So people are calling it Year of the Yeti. I think that's quite flattering because your artwork's been nothing but Stern's project this year, it seems like. And Turtles is fantastic. Avengers is amazing. How are you pulling this off? Is there two of you? No, there's not. I wish there was. So here's the thing. And by the way, since I'm setting it up and I'm using so many words and just sort of protracting what I'm going to say next, you know that I'm lying. um uh there's i've got three more games coming out this year yet awesome we can't wait to see all three of them no so so so just just uh for the record um i don't want to have games come out back to back ever like that's that's not something i want to do i don't want people to get tired of me um and i also don't uh i don't want to um uh miss out on so much sleep because i kind of like it it helps me um but uh but yeah no it uh so basically what happened was I was working on Turtles um and about halfway into Turtles into the schedule um I think it might have been July last year or something like that um I was approached about um uh doing Avengers uh because I had a good relationship with Marvel and, and, you know, Deadpool, uh, has, has, uh, been pretty good and, and they liked that. And, uh, and I'm like, yeah, I definitely want to do it. Can you push it back a little bit so that I can, you know, get it done? And obviously they're like, no, we can't do that. And I'm like, well, you know, it was worth a shot. Right. Um, and, uh, and so anyway, so we tried to work out like sort of a compromise on the schedule, um, which, which would have put it, I think I would have started in November or something like that. And they're like, nah, we can't do it. I'm like, okay, that's fine. I'd love to, but I understand, you know, whatever. And so I kept going on Turtles. And what happened was over the holidays, I got a call from George Gomez and he was like, listen, you know, like Marvel really wants you to do this. You know, you're winding down on Turtles. I was set to be done by January on turtles and, and, um, and he's like, you know, they, they won't, they, they said no to everyone else that we've tried to get, you know, can you do it? Uh, and I'm like, okay, well, that's great. Is, so does that mean we have a longer schedule? And he's like, well, no, you know, we're at the, we're at the halfway point. So you've got, you're going to have, you know, a short schedule. And I'm like, oh, okay. Um, and, and, uh, I'm like, well, yeah, no, I could, I mean, obviously I want to do it, you know, it's not going to be an ideal schedule, but yeah, whatever. And so I, I literally, I think January 1st started. And I, I think the first week there I did the, the, the first, the pro translate sketch, sort of trying to come up with an idea on how to approach this and sort of what direction I was going to go stylistically and everything. I knew I wanted to keep it close to Deadpool, but between you and me, I was, you know, still in turtle mode. Um, so I, I do, I do see that. I shouldn't say that out loud because now people start looking, but I see that like, I'm a little, it's a little softer look than Deadpool. Um, and I think that's sort of from coming off of turtles and I was still sort of in that, whatever, it doesn't matter. Bottom line is, uh, I, I, the first sketch, uh, went to Marvel, um, within that, I think the first week, whatever. And they're like, yes, that's great. Do it. And so then I went straight to inks and color the next week. And it just sort of was like a snowball roll from there. It's like I was just constantly just boom, boom, boom. I didn't have any changes throughout the process. They were, you know, they loved everything, which is great. Between you and me, I wish I would have had a little more time to, to flesh some things out. You know, in particular, that's why we only have, you know, two different back glass designs, Translight designs. And that's why there are a few similarities in two of the cabinet packages. But I'm sorry, I was clearing my throat there. Right. But, but, but, you know, I mean, I did the best I could with the time. And I'm proud of it. You know, obviously, I think, you know, obviously, Keith and the team's game is incredible. So being able to be a part of it was, you know, just, you know, it's I get lucky. You know, I try to I try to pick projects I'm excited for, but I think I get lucky in regards to the projects I do get on. So, yeah, but you asked me about time. It was, yeah, it was short. I didn't have a lot of time. I think I had, I was done in, I started January 1, finished June, maybe towards the end of June, something like that. And during that time, actually, I had my daughter, my oldest daughter, who is also an illustrator. And by the way, I had her when I was 10 years old. I'm very young. um uh and uh don't ask no no i'm not that young i just i just turned for the record i just turned 44 um so everyone out there who thinks that i'm young and hip i'm not um uh and so i actually had her uh ink and color um uh the uh the the tmnt topper that i swear we're gonna see one of these days during that process. But, but yeah, I didn't get to, I didn't get to have her help me on Avengers though, unfortunately, because it was just sort of one thing after the other. I didn't really have time to take a break. Well, I think it's a testament to you, what you do though, because we've talked to multiple people about Avengers already and everyone's saying it's the best artwork you've done so far. And I'm biased. That hurts me, but go on. but i'm biased because i i love ninja turtles and the artwork was fantastic on this like i was listening to insider and you said that you had to like rethink how you did artwork for turtles because the 87 artwork is so different from what's done nowadays can you can you explain a little bit of that process to us so people can maybe understand what you did differently with turtles than the rest of your projects you've done for me um i know that i have sort of uh some proclivities, some things that I will tend to do, um, uh, that, that, you know, I guess it makes things, uh, look like I did them, but at the same time, there's certain things that, um, I try to accommodate for the license. Like I want, I want to actually serve the project and the license, um, because that's sort of how I was always, you know, trained was to, you know, you, You kind of you interject yourself only when necessary. And I guess over time that just sort of comes out. But my point is what happened on Turtles is when I was trying to sort of get my angle on it and dissect it all. Well, what I found was that one of the most identifiable characteristics or traits of that era of the turtles, which I grew up on and I love, by the way, was the fact that they were almost primarily curvilinear forms. There were no real hard edges. There weren't angles. And one of the things that's come since is every version of the turtles becomes more angular to the point where the current version is almost comically so in many ways. It's beautiful. But at the same time, it just, you know, to to to take the essence of what the 87 turtles was, that was one of the most identifiable things. And for me, I do use a lot of angles. I try to use a lot of, you know, curves and angles to sort of contrast. But in this case, I had to kind of, I guess, soften my hand a bit. And that was kind of difficult, believe it or not. It was kind of challenging. And so when you say that, you know, people are saying Avengers is, you know, the best work, you know, I'm sort of joking there. But at the same time, what probably people are seeing is maybe a little bit of comfort having worked for over a year straight back to back on those two projects that I kind of I guess was the wheels were quite greased by the time I got there because I had been working on turtles. And I actually I put a lot of a lot of extra time into turtles early on before it even kicked into high gear. Just so that I could kind of find my way and probably to the detriment of it, actually. No, I'm just kidding. Okay, so I want to know, I actually grew up, I am just slightly older than you at two years, and I grew up on the iconic images of Iron Maiden. And I was actually a big fan of the band in the 80s. And in your mind, you have that Derek Riggs type. Now, Derek Riggs, he really wasn't a trained artist, but he had an image that really worked with the band. So my question was, how did you actually take that and to reimagine it while keeping it true to the original art style? Because it's always hard as an artist when you are trying to, I guess, pay homage to a certain style without just being a cut and paste.
    17:25
    Oh, that's an easy answer. I'm joking. That's a lot. No. Well, so first off, it involves a lot of making myself miserable, second guessing every decision I make. Uh, that's, that's really the secret to all of my success is I am very neurotic and I have a, I have a tremendously difficult time liking anything I do until I've gotten very far away from it. Um, Iron Maiden's a great example of that. Uh, I knew everyone wanted Derek Riggs on there. I wanted Derek Riggs on there, but I'm not Derek Riggs. I don't do things like Derek Riggs. Um, and I knew that I couldn't, uh, imitate him. I really couldn't. So I tried to, uh, distill as much of, of that inspiration as I could. Obviously, whenever it was called upon to, to actually reference, uh, directly, uh, something he had done, um, it made my life a little bit easier, but I still stressed and, you know, would fret over, you know, if I was even coming close to approaching it correctly. And so what sort of happened was I just kept moving and obsessing as I went. And if they approved it, I thought, OK, maybe I'm not failing. How's that? Is that a terrible answer no that's awesome um i tried i try really hard that's it i mean i don't know if i if i succeed often enough um but i try really hard and uh and i hope i you know the key is working with uh keith is keith is a very low-key quiet guy right and and uh so he doesn't give me a lot of feedback and so I assume he hates everything until it's done and and it's in production I'm joking of course Keith I'm not joking entirely it's sort of true well I do love the pro back glass and that that had to have been amazingly difficult that you were able to get so many versions of Eddie and uh just being able to get them all together You know what the hardest part of that was actually was deciding where to take it in color, because actually getting them composed into a space isn't as difficult, but actually being able to take in color and push and pull those spaces is a little bit more difficult, at least to do it, I guess, in a dynamic way. And that's that's so I sort of between between just between us. No one's listening. Right. Never. I I sort of exist in three spaces at any given time. Either I'm in concept phase where I'm sketching. I'm in ink phase where I'm sort of, you know, kind of solidifying forms or I'm in color phase. And and I I do all of those sort of in order. And when I say that, I'm not talking per piece. I'm talking about the entire project. I'll do every pencil, every sketch up front, get it approved. I'll then move to ink and then I'll then move to color at the at the end, obviously. So so there's a little bit of the stress. It comes back in every phase. so coming up with ideas and i'm in that phase now on a project um you know coming up with ideas in the sketch phase is just it's it's you know i'm i'm paralyzed by fear coming up with good ideas uh makes me want to vomit um coming up with great ideas i don't think it's it's possible but i'm hoping to fake it and then people will go ah yes that's good let's move with that But then I'm going to revisit all that fear again once I get to the next phase and the phase after. So, again, I make myself miserable until the end, and then hopefully people don't hate it. Iron Maiden, I said throughout, was going to be the last pinball machine I ever worked on. I said, people are going to hate this. They're going to say this is not Derek Riggs, and that was going to be it. And I remember telling Greg that almost every day and Keith every time I saw him. I'm like, yeah, this is it for me.
    22:08
    So thankfully, thanks to everyone who bought, played, and supports that project because I'm still here.
    22:17
    No, so I love the premium because that is kind of the zenith of their popularity with that. But I would also like to have the pro Translight to go in and out just because I think it was such a good job. Um, now the question, another question too, is, it seems like you have, uh, in the nineties, uh, late eighties, early nineties, there was a big, uh, resurgence of comic book artists. And there were some really well-known ones. You know, there's, uh, Jim Lee, Wiltz Patasio, uh, Rob Liefeld, who did, uh, Deadpool. Uh, there were all these, and Todd McFarland, there were all these known artists. Were you a big comic book fan back in the day? And did you ever think about doing comics yourself?
    23:04
    Yeah, yeah. No, I was a huge comic book guy. Like I grew up like my dad had Fantastic Four and Avengers comics from like the 60s and stuff. And I remember my grandparents, they were always at my grandparents' house. So every time I'd go, I'd read those. And and then I started actually using my allowance, which I started earning when I was old enough to apparently be useful. And and every week I would go and pick up comics. And I started with like they were doing a classic Spider-Man, classic X-Men, you know, stuff. And then I started getting into the new books. And this was probably I mean, I was in elementary school at that point. By the time I was in like, what, maybe eighth grade, seventh grade, something like that, I think it was about the time Todd McFarlane started his run on Amazing Spider-Man. And that was sort of revelatory to me because of the fact that, you know, I had been, you know, reading, I should also say at the same time, I was a DC guy as well. I read Batman and, you know, all of the sort of classical tones and style of drawing and ink work was sort of thrown out the window when Todd McFarlane came in. And so that was sort of a huge thing. You know, he was a little more cartoony. But the one thing he did that obviously I've always appreciated was he was very good at solid dimensional forms in space, like like he could draw things, whether or not, you know, they you could you can make some arguments. And so now looking back on it it not nearly as clean as what I remember But was um he just yeah he blew me away he was one of the first ones uh to make a mark um you know in a big way uh followed by uh norm brayfogle um who is not as well known and actually he he passed away oh boy it's probably within the last 10 years now.
    25:14
    But he had been doing detective comics during, you know, probably, I don't know, maybe again, eighth grade, freshman year, something like that.
    25:26
    And his, again, very similar styles, tones that he would hit, like McFarlane, but different. And actually, I would say I probably have more influence from Bray Fogle's short run than anything else. And I just kind of discovered that recently as I was looking through some some stuff of his. I didn't really know he had that big of an influence on me. But but yes, obviously. And, you know, Jim Lee, Liefeld. Obviously, I was around the early days of Deadpool, stuff like that. I fell off for a little while about the time that I got my license and could actually go on dates. I also stopped playing video games there for a while about the same time until I learned to juggle. And then then it all came back shortly thereafter. But but yeah, no, I was very influenced by comics and still am. I mean, there's a lot of amazing guys out there that make me feel very untalented.
    26:38
    Well, I want to issue just a quick apology, not only to you, but to Keith. On our episode two episodes or three episodes ago, we had Martin and Jeff – or Martin Robbins and Jeff Teolosafile around on. And one of my criticisms were I didn't fully understand where the artwork was coming from because the Infinity War that we know from 1993, Thanos is the one collecting the gems. and I said, there's no Adam Warlock or Silver Surfer on here. And Joe Lemire actually messaged me from Pinball Players Podcast, and he sent me a picture of the lower play field. And right there above all the Avengers, smack dab in the middle, is Adam Warlock's head.
    27:17
    Yes, but not the version. So that's a weird thing, too. And you can blame me for this. um but talking with marvel um one of the things they said was listen you can you can pull from any era as long as they're all from the same era right um but i kind of broke that a little bit and i probably shouldn't even say this now but i kind of broke that a little bit and and the biggest throwback where i broke that because i kind of tried to stay with the more modern interpretations but sort of with a a more i guess a little bit throwback style to it but um but thanos actually i i tried to stay as close as i could to the the starlin era stuff um you know but but whatever i mean uh i i don't i yeah i don't know as long as people don't hate it that's dude everyone loves it i tried really hard i have there is no complaints with any of this from what i've heard and we hear a lot like for some odd reason we get a lot of messages but it's wonderful artwork i was just confused of where the storyline was coming from because i know that the 93 doesn't have the black order in it but like more of the 2012 stuff does and so i was confused where the storyline was coming from or if it was more like jurassic park where it's kind of like the the own adventure kind of thing well i think i think that's sort of the way it went was because it was keep in mind because this you know i came in so late and and and it had been kind of delayed because of the lack of of having an artist on that that you know they were building the game they were coming up with all this stuff but but some of the the you know more solidified story notes were, were still not there when I came in, like they were, but they weren't like, they were still trying to figure out some things. And maybe I'm wrong by the way, Keith, Keith can correct me on this one, but, but so I sort of, uh, was putting things together in the space that I could based on what I knew, uh, and what I didn't know. And, and it all sort of, So, for instance, Adam Warlock, you know, does he have a big role in the game itself?
    29:41
    I, you know, I guess I should say by comparison to the original comic run that, you know, was sort of I was pulling from. It's not quite the same. So I would say it's probably more of an original take based off of lots of different pieces in era. I just wanted to pay tribute every place that I could. I mean – and by the way, if I could have drawn the Silver Surfer, if we could have used him, I better believe I would have done that. But I don't think he was in our wheelhouse for this one. Gotcha. Were there limitations? Because I noticed there's no X-Men or – yeah, X-Men on this either. Okay. Yeah, well, so the way it works is, and again, I'm not the licensing guy. I don't know this stuff, but I can tell you this much. I do know after working on Deadpool and working on this, there are distinctions. There's lines drawn in the sand, like the X-Men are a different license, right?
    30:37
    Spider-Man is his own license. So, like, there's some areas that don't cross over, I guess, is maybe the way to look at it. Okay. But anyway, again, I could be wrong on that, too. But that's based on looking at style guides and things like that. I'm pretty sure I'm not. Well, you're right, actually. In the late 90s, Marvel was really hurting for money. And so they sold off all these movie licenses and other things that going on to it. And that's the reason why Fantastic Four went one way. X-Men went one way. Spider-Man went one way. And really the reason why we have the whole Avengers series in the movies is because they sold off all their A-list superheroes. And so really the Avengers was kind of a B-list. It was like the and also list. And so they were able to create this great storyline using Iron Man, which was really the – it's Marvel's equivalent of Batman really. um well i i agree with you by the way uh wholeheartedly uh because between you and me and keep in mind i'm somebody who loved comics iron man was the least interesting character uh in the comics um uh when i was reading i did not enjoy him what what uh robert downey jr and the writers did with that role to make him like the coolest guy in the room um you know you Those guys deserve all the money they get.
    32:07
    He was not a favorite of mine, and now he absolutely is. Well, it's funny too. He's happy, so you know happy from the movies. He directed the very first Iron Man, and he fought and fought and fought to get Robert Downey Jr. in that role because he said, this is your Iron Man. This is the man. And it's funny that he fought so hard to get him, and he finally got him, and look where they are now. I mean, I guarantee if it wasn't for Robert Downey Jr., they would not be where they are in the Marvel Cinematic Universe because look at how incredible Hulk did, even six months later. I agree. Yeah, totally. I totally agree.
    32:42
    All the casting is fantastic except for that Hawkeye guy. That's right. I'm calling you out.
    32:51
    I'm sorry. I'm joking. But let's be honest. No, I'm joking. He's great. He's an avid listener to the podcast. So you might get some heat after this. I know. And we're good friends, you know, being Jeremy's. And so I just rib him a little bit. Yeah. Do you know he bit his kid? Anyway, I don't know. I read things online.
    33:14
    You know, if it's on the internet. It's true, right? Look up Jeremy Renner bit his kid. And maybe I'm wrong, but I think I read that somewhere. I'll have to check that out. That is hilarious.
    33:26
    Oh, my goodness. Sorry. I know a lot of things that are not important to life, but go on. I know exactly where you're coming from. I'm the exact same way.
    33:37
    Well, I want to talk about one thing, and this is when I knew you were legit. And I'm not a huge – okay, let me put it this way. I enjoy Primus music. I'm not an in-depth fan, but I know some of their history. and so when I saw the Primus play field and everything that went into that I mean that is passion on a on artwork you can fake it till the cows come home with artwork you can draw just whatever the the person wants you to draw but there's a difference between that and oozing passion I think that's what people appreciate about each project you do it oozes passion like with turtles i can tell that you're a fan of turtles because of the stuff that is in there and it's just i think that's where the appreciation comes from your artwork is that is that one of the reasons you try to pick projects that you're more familiar with than others oh well yeah i mean and i appreciate that by the way and and i'm glad that it shows um yeah no i i won't do a project I've listened, I've turned down a lot of, uh, as a matter of fact, so I don't know if I've said this one before out loud, but I was, I, I turned down doing the star Wars comic, uh, version. Um, and it's not because I don't love star Wars, but it's because I knew I couldn't add anything to it. Um, it also intimidated me greatly. Um, but, but I go, you know, I don't know that I can do anything in that space. Those people have to look exactly like they look and there's not anything that can really deviate.
    35:14
    And maybe I'm a chicken, but whatever. But but my point is, you know, I look at a project when I you know, when it comes to me, I go, OK, is there is there a challenge here? um is it something that i i love and and can completely understand and try to i guess boil down into uh some sort of you know pure form and and figure out what to go whatever the hell yeah i i i will not work on anything unless i think i can bring something to it and so that does mean that yeah i i i look for things that excite me and and challenge me because at the end of the day, uh, whatever the last thing was that I did, um, is pretty much going to determine if I get to do another thing. So I kind of look at every project, like it's the last project I'm doing. Um, now that's mentally not healthy. Uh, it's a bit draining even. Um, but for whatever reason, um, it keeps me honest and keeps me, uh, you know, trying, um, I don't ever want to phone anything in and so like you know you bring up primus and um you know talk about a short schedule i had uh i think five weeks uh maybe maybe six total but um with sketching but uh to do that entire uh cabinets back glass and uh um you know play field and and you know and this goes with Avengers 2, not in that time frame, I always say, okay, I can make concessions on the cabinets.
    36:54
    I really can't make too many concessions on the back glass because that's the thing that's going to draw someone over from the other side of the room. But I absolutely refuse and will not make concessions on the play field. That's the place that people are going to be staring at, hopefully for years and years. And so that's the place where you got to put focus. And by the way, I shouldn't take credit for that. I got to give that credit to Greg Ferris for instilling that in me from from the early, early days. Ghostbusters, you know, so so, yeah, it's it's something that it's never easy. No project is easy. But if you are excited about it, it mitigates that unease. If that means anything. You're telling me pinball's not easy?
    37:53
    Sorry. And we'll move on. I will say, though, that I bought the limited edition because it had everything that you did, including the mirror back glass. I wanted the the inside art blades that were done by you. And so that really helped out. And also the same thing with hurdles. I did like the limited edition Art Blades in there but because that goes to limited edition I got a premium I got the premium ones which I think are perfect because they do blend with the theme perfectly and so art really does elevate what I'm buying to an extra level and so I appreciate what you're doing because it does show Well listen, that was my And I won't get into the past past, but that was my goal early on was I go, how much did these things cost? And I go, geez, man, if I was paying that much money for something, it better look like it.
    39:01
    And so, you know, as an artist, because keep in mind, when I first started legitimately doing pinball work, or maybe illegitimately. I joke, but it's a joke. You know, it was like 2011. And I literally had just been doing illustration for a year at that point. I had not done anything for like 10 years. I hadn't picked up a pencil. I had been working in the realm of design and creating uh web-based products um you know things like that and so i sort of had this new uh ignorance uh in in i guess how to uh value my work and value my time um and so when i was approached uh way back when uh by he who shall not be named um i i'm joking uh by the way hi john um uh i uh I, uh, uh, I, I put everything into it. Like, I, I'm like, you know what, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this. I want this to succeed. I want this, you know, this is perhaps my opportunity. Um, and so I, I, you know, I, I made my life, uh, terrible. Um, and I continue to do it to this day, uh, with a smile, uh, and only occasionally, um, a tired weepy frown. i'm sorry that's that's a joke um i'm always happy sure absolutely and again i have no idea i don't even know what the question was anymore i'm sorry no i know i mean yeah okay so if you had your ideal um you know in zombie yeti land when you're like you know what this would be my ideal timeline from start to finish uh what i would have for project, a pinball machine, what would you say is your comfort level?
    41:05
    Okay, so I am going to be absolutely honest here. I don't think I should ever dictate that. And I'll tell you why. Twofold. One, part of what makes the project what it is in the end is a little bit of the chaos and a little bit of of that unknown uh throughout um keeps you on your toes and so for me as much as i could say you know so so i'll give you an example so i figured i actually i figured this out uh the other the other day and and i'm not gonna i won't give exact numbers, but roughly, roughly, you know, per piece, you know, I think in my, you know what, I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to say it because I don't want to, I don't want to give too much away, but in a perfect world, I would have weekends off. How's that? But I don't because I want to take that time when I know everyone else is off to refine and refine. So the schedule's fine. I'm the problem. Well, it's hard to walk away when it's, it's the same thing as taking a class in college. If you take, if you take one class, you're going to spend a certain amount of time in a week on that one class. Or if you take five classes, you're going to spend the same amount of time, but you're going to diversify it just because however you personally are wired, that's the amount of effort you're going to put into it. So if you have three projects going simultaneously, you're going to spend the same amount of time just divided between the projects. Yeah, you know, and it's interesting because I went to, first off, what's interesting is I was a very lazy kid, super lazy. I was encouraged to be lazy. My dad started working a full-time, he was a family of six, so he started working a full-time job literally while he was in high school. He would work till midnight, one o'clock on school nights, right?
    43:08
    And that's because there were so many kids, if he wanted anything, he had to make his own money. Anyway, so he always told me, he's like, listen, enjoy being a kid as long as you want. He's like, don't don't push it. And so he would actually, you know, give me in the summers, he would give me an allowance to be able to go do things with friends and stuff like that. And so he basically trained me to be lazy. But I also watched him and how he worked. And he's a very hard worker. And so I got work ethic. I just didn't have anything to apply it to. And so then I get to college and I went to the Columbus College of Art and Design, which is in Columbus, Ohio. Can you believe that? It's so cool that those names line up. It's not too far from Ohio State. They knew the city after the college, right? Yeah, they did. They did after the fact. And it was known at that time that I went as being this the second most rigorous curriculum to Princeton. Now, that's what they said. I'm like, how would they possibly even put like no one's going to whatever. That was part of their marketing. And I'm like, who would want to go here? But whatever. I went anyway. They gave me a lot of money. I went. And so they actually had it structured where to be a full time student, you had to have at least 18 credit hours. And and there that was a lot of classes. I mean, I literally was in class at least eight hours a day. And every class expected you to be only paying attention to their class and putting all of your time for for whatever the next days, weeks, whatever into that class. Right. And so if it was a, you know, a painting class or a sculpture class, whatever, they expected you to always be only working on their work, even though they know that's not possible. Right. And so that trained me and really made me ready for pinball in the fact that you have to figure out how to maximize your time in every possible, you know, whether it be, I guess, anatomy, whether it be, you know, structural drawing perspective, things like that. Like you sort of had to figure out how to do the impossible and not go crazy. And so, you know, I managed to graduate, by the way, which I every year I was like, I'm done. This is it. I'm done. I can't do this anymore. This is driving me crazy.
    45:51
    And I think that helped tremendously. As a matter of fact, there's actually an artist who is, I think, working on a project right now. And Greg Ferreris had run him by me. And I was looking through his credentials and it said he graduated from, you know, Columbus College of Art and Design. And I said, I think he can do it. I'm like, I'm positive this guy can at least get the work done. And his portfolio was great, too. So so maybe someday when you see that, I can I can go, hey, look, it's he was also from CCD. But but whatever. I mean, I at the time I cursed it. Now I understand, you know, they were basically telling you, like, if you really want to do this job, if you want to be an artist and actually work and make money, you don't get to rest. And it's true. I mean, it's probably true of many jobs, by the way, but it's the only one I know right now. Yeah, I wasn't that motivated of a kid either. And there's a lot of jobs where I think, well, I did a really crappy job. But, yeah, at some point in your career, you have to decide, I'm going to put my effort into this to make it worth it. But, yeah, you're absolutely right.
    47:06
    There really aren't 40-hour-a-week jobs for a lot of people because if you're doing your own stuff, then there's never end. The clock doesn't end. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But, yeah, I mean, and there comes a point in time where you go, okay, I've got to be an adult now, right?
    47:26
    The one thing that people have pointed out, and I don't know if you can speak to this or not, why is there so much yellow?
    47:33
    Well, first off, it's not just yellow. At least if you're talking about the trim on Avengers. Yes. it's actually it's a spark there's a sparkle in there that this does not pick up on it's because Thanos so Thanos in the especially back in the Starlin original sort of infinity storyline it basically and this was kind of a joke all throughout to me I laughed at it and kept making it and no one responded no I'm joking I think a few people laughed but But he essentially he always looked like he was wearing a big dish glove to me.
    48:16
    I embrace that personally. I like that. He didn't he wasn't wearing gold back then. Now, he might have been. But you've got to keep in mind the way they colored things back then. They didn't have digital color and they they it was more that the offset was more. It was closer to a palette for, say, a silkscreen poster where like maybe they're going to have, you know, like maybe five different colors and they can make some blends and, and, you know, value, uh, from, from sort of bringing, uh, opacity into it a bit, but, but, um, you know, they really didn't have it. So yellow, they, they never had gold. It was always yellow. And, and so that was, you can blame me for that. I thought it was absolutely stunning and striking. And I just came off turtles and I go, I don't want anything to look like any game I've done before. Like every, every time I do a game, I want to make sure they can sit by each other and people don't see them blend together. I want to see them, you know, and by the way, that's selfish because I know that I'm going to have my games.
    49:21
    But so, so that's, yeah, that's my fault. Blame me. We'll blame you a hundred percent. It looks good though. Like, like Scott convinced me. Cause at first I think all of us were like, what's with the yellow, but like gold is awesome. What's wrong with you? It's like sparkly. It's amazing. When you get close to it. Yeah. It's, it's, it's what, It much better than what and I think this is true of all Stern machines but especially selfishly my machines They look completely different in the real world space than in photographs Like it's very hard, even just dimensionally, like you never see a pinball machine sort of at this orthographic three quarter view or what. You know what I mean? Like it's it's it's just a different experience. So and I try to build things and approach it knowing how they're actually going to be seen. Like, I don't I don't make arbitrary choices, put it that way.
    50:17
    But but but I'm also not saying I make all the right choices either. Like I said, I question everything I do. And if somebody hasn't told me to change something, well, by God, it's going to be there. Well, I know with Iron Maiden came out that a lot of people were wondering about the, I guess, the green and red combination. And the funny thing is everybody who owned the game or saw it up close, they said, is that absolutely the right combination? It just doesn't get picked up very well in the pictures.
    50:47
    Yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, what's funny about that, too, is I've heard and I don't know the validity of this, But I've actually heard that some of the colors for trim have been diminished based on the type of materials that have been being used. And I don't know the whole story there, but I believe there was like maybe it's like the equivalent of, you know, like cadmiums. Maybe like there's metals in there. I don't know, whatever. But but there's like wherever it is, I know that we had limitations on Avengers where there were certain colors that were knocked out of the running. We couldn't have them. And maybe it had to do with COVID. I don't know, because I really wanted a COVID green. Anyway, that's a terrible joke. I feel I feel instantly regrettable for saying that. But but so so that limited things a bit. And so, you know, whatever. I'm not making an excuse. I'm just saying that that does exist. That's reality. Well, and I think it gives a perspective because I think us as enthusiasts in the hobby, we demand maybe too much of everyone because we get this idea drummed up in our head. and then when the final product comes out and we look at it, we go, that's not what I had pictured. A lot of people then attack whatever the project is because it's not the perception that they brought up. And I think he didn't get as much of that with this because no one knew Avengers was coming until like two weeks before when someone's like, by the way, the next pinball machine is a Marvel machine. And so even we speculated. We're like, well, it's got to be Black Panther because that only makes sense. It's Black Panther or Captain Marvel. Then when they announced Avengers, I don't think anyone was thinking Avengers. And so there was no expectation. And so it's been blown out of the water because the release, the reception to this has been because this game looks phenomenal. Between Keith Elwin's design and your artwork and just everything, it's like a perfect storm. I don't know what Stern's paying you guys. They need to pay you guys more. And you can take that to the bank for me. You know, you can go go ask for a raise and say, by the way, loser kids say that because these machines are pushing the standard of what pinball should be.
    53:09
    Could I have a copy of this one? There's a few people. No, I'm joking. Yeah. Do you want to be my manager? No, I, I, I really appreciate that. I think what you're trying to say is had people had expectations. I would have failed miserably. And I agree with you. No, no, I'm joking. But but yeah, I was shocked that that this was not being, you know, even tangentially talked about. Jason Ruffer, I'm looking at you. You know, there's no he seems to always like say like, you know, the next five things or something. He's one of those guys. And I was shocked, and I kept sort of joking with Keith. I'm like, Keith, when are you going to let people know?
    54:07
    Because I just assumed that somebody within the walls there has to be giving information out when I see some of these leaks.
    54:16
    And I kept holding out. I'm like, God, I hope this does not leak. I hope it does not leak. And then when I saw people talking about a Marvel title, I was so glad that nobody was even thinking Avengers. I was like, oh, thank you, because I knew that would that would sort of cushion the blow when people saw it. And you're right. Some people would because of lack of expectation would accept what I had done. Well, it's a hard franchise. It really is. I mean, look at they've built up this universe that's made billions of dollars over the last decade. and so i i don't know if you felt it with deadpool at all because everyone was always talking well ryan reynolds ryan reynolds and even to this day it's still well you know but ryan reynolds and i i don't get it because that is such a beautiful game it's just you look at that game and it's oh yeah it's fantastic well i look i we obviously i love that game i'm very proud of it i think uh And Tanya did an amazing job on the code. And, you know, it was a rough ride on that one. I won't go into details. But you remember there was another designer on it at one point. See, what am I doing? Terrible. We don't know who you're talking about. Okay, good.
    55:33
    By the way, that brings me to my joke that I've used way too much. I shouldn't even say it, but, you know, I had had such a bad time working with designers named John that when John Borg wanted to work on Turtles, I was afraid we were going to find out something horrible that he had done in his life.
    55:55
    I kept telling him, I kept going to him, John, just confess to me now. We can get ahead of this. Anyway, I'm joking. But that's a terrible joke, by the way. I will not. No more pinball machines for me. I apologize. But no, I yeah, I think at the end of the day, I Deadpool ended up being such a better game. uh george gomez uh like he toiled and he worked night and day uh to put that together to get that get to get a new design put together and it was so much better than what we would have had just trust me on that one um and i i'm very proud of that one uh i i to this day it's uh it's probably my my favorite um uh playing game and a lot of that has to do with the rules uh just in general It's my kind of game. It's easy to jump into. For me, I can go to the end and enjoy myself. And it doesn't get old. It's like back in the old days, playing arcade games.
    57:08
    You would play a game that literally only lasted maybe a half an hour. And then that was it. Nowadays, these games, they're too long. I can't play a 30-hour game. I don't have time for that. I forget where I was when I go I step away and I come back I'm getting old no um uh but yeah no I I'm I don't even know what your question was because that's how my brain works I'm sorry no you're good you're good well and I want to say one more thing too I want to congratulate you too because for so many years everyone was saying that zombie yeti was the leak from stern because you got on deadpool and that leaked and then what was the other one I know turtles leaked early too And they're like, well, the only connection here is Yeti. And you went on a podcast. You're like, I swear, guys, it's not me. And now Avengers, it didn't release until two weeks before. So obviously you're not the leak. So Stern, stop. Listen, that angers me more than anything because I don't know. Really? Well, yeah, because my work in the licensing world exists outside of Stern, too. I have no reason. I have no bonus to get out of leaking. Like, if you remember, like, Ghostbusters leaked, right? That was the first one. That was really early. Yeah. Right, right. And you know what they leaked? They leaked unfinished artwork, bad pictures of it. Bad pictures of it. And what do I have to gain from that? Like, nothing. Like, and I was confronted about it, too. And they're like, I don't even know what it was. Listen, we actually do know who it was now.
    58:44
    And I'm not going to go into details. But it's very possible that the same source may have been on others too. I don't know. But the bottom line is I can swear to you that I have no reason and no desire to ever leak. Like the surprise is part of the fun. And I get very upset when I see people guessing games that I'm working on. I don't like that at all. So it's funny. Yeah, I had never heard that people thought it was me. Ghostbusters was a direct thing. That one, I was part of an investigation, so to speak, where they're like, hey, do you do this? And here's the funny thing about that one, too, is it was actually in production, production template, which I've never even seen. I don't have. Right. So it wasn't me, kids. And I can assure you, I have no reason to talk about anything else. I don't want to. We want to clear your good name because, you know. I appreciate that. That's what we do. And I can get your frustration. I mean, I think we can all relate when you go to cook something. If someone walks into the kitchen, you're halfway through baking a cake, and they look at the bowl, and it's still just that pudding portion of the cake. And they're like, what the heck's this? This is not cake. And you're like, well, I'm not done yet. Yeah, and not just that, but when you're going an entire year on a project, for instance, and you're having to keep your mouth shut, you're not allowed to show anything, why do you want it to leak even a week before or a day before? Like that, like when turtles, those crappy turtle pictures went out. See how I edited myself, wasn't that?
    60:29
    Those crappy turtle pictures went out like the day before, you know, or a couple days before. I don't remember now. But that made me upset. I'm like, oh, you've got to be kidding me. Why can't people just wait and be nice? By the way, which allows me to call out Kaneda. Can I do that on here? Am I allowed to do that? If you want to. So we will not. Because he said. Oh, I'm sorry. I was going to say, I was going to say really quick. The comments or opinions of the guest do not reflect. Oh, no, no, no, no. Don't don't don't don't beat Chris. Don't beat them up and don't beat me up either. I'm just saying the the irony is, you know, he leaked the turtle picks and he said, I'd do it for anything. You know, if I've got pictures of it for the pinball community, I will die on my sword. I know whatever. He made it sound like, you know, he was doing something noble and he'd do it about any game. And then, of course, oh, and I've got Guns N' Roses, but I'm not going to show it. That wouldn't be nice of me to show it. Anyway, I'm calling you out, boy.
    61:32
    Sorry. No, no, that's fine. Actually, Chris, Chris, don't leak things, please. I mean, you can talk about them and you can tell people, you know, stuff. Just don't leak things, especially if I'm involved. I actually enjoy this was the best pinball reveal that I've been a part of just because I really had absolutely no clue what was coming up. And so when Josh texted me, he's like, hey, did you see the rumors of the new title? I'm like, really? And this was like 12 hours before. And so it was just so much fun to actually say, huh, I had absolutely no idea, and so I just get to look at it. It was great. No, and I think that's the idea. That's the way that Stern would prefer all of them to go. So, you know, it's people who apparently, you know, and listen, I'm the worst guy in this regard. My sister, when we were young, I have an older sister, and I love to tell her what presents she was getting for Christmas before.
    62:32
    Because I thought everyone wanted to know what they were getting. And so I'd be like, hey, I know what mom and dad. And she'd be like, no, shut up. Don't tell me. So what I'm saying is I get it. I understand why people want to say things. It makes sense. But at the same time, it's like if you wait, you know, what is it? Good things come to those who, I don't know, whatever. Yes. Oh, yeah.
    62:58
    No, I totally agree. It's more fun. It's certainly more fun. Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, you know, now people have an expectation of how many games are going to get released, you know, in a year by Stern, right? Everyone's like, OK, about this time, we'll probably get something or about this time. Well, it's never it's never quite, you know, like, OK, I know every June 4th we're going to get, you know, a game or something. It's not quite like that. But at the same time, it's you know, wouldn't it be great if you had no idea what it was? And then it turns out to be something you like. Now, if it's something you hate and I worked on it, then apparently we could never be friends. we wouldn't be compatible.
    63:44
    Well, I guess we could be friends in real life because I've enjoyed every project you've done so far. I know Scott loves Iron Maiden, just gushes over that game. Well, I appreciate that. I'm one of those guys who, when people came on, they're like, Iron Maiden? I'm like, yeah, Iron Maiden. I give Keith all the credit on that one, though, because the rules and how he set that game up within that universe, And actually, Chuck Ernst's team and all the animation and display stuff they did, that game became way more than what I could even have imagined. Like I had expectations, but at the same time, what it turned into, it is special, I think. what I was thinking when I see your art it reminds me of when I was growing up in the 80s and you go into the bookstores because back then they had bookstores and you go into the fantasy novel the Conan the Barbarian type stuff and I would pull it out and I would look at the cover because that's how you bought a book and I would look at it and I was like holy cow did any of these guys take art classes it was so bad I mean seriously The muscles were in the wrong place, and it looked like it was – I like the fact that you started this by saying, when I look at your art, it reminds me. And then you went into this whole thing about how people – no, no. I think it's fantastic. I love it. Keep going. Yes, yes, yes. No, no. What I'm saying is that there are so many times when I look at some old pinball art from back in the day where, yes, there are some great ones. But there are some where you're like, oh, my gosh, this is terrible. and then you come along and you say, yeah, this is how it's supposed to be. And this is what makes it great. It really does push it to a new level. See, see what I did? No, that's good. I, I, uh, you, you guys, uh, you guys really helped my self-esteem tonight. Thank you. Um, no, I, no, I'm joking. No, no, I'm not joking, but I'm, I'm joking, uh, to be dismissive of it. I actually do appreciate it. But, but having said that, um, I think there's a lot of charm to to some of that stuff like i so i was a um i grew up i was a uh a sega kid like i had a sega master system instead of a a nintendo entertainment system um that's terrible right um not at all i had the genesis well i went with the genesis so i never had a super nintendo so okay okay there you go um after that i i became platform agnostic i i i i treat them all the same um i uh but but having said that uh sega box art was was terrible uh during that era awful awful stuff like like classically awful stuff i there's a charm to that to me and to this day i still sort of um think about that even you know the genesis era there was some there was some pretty bad stuff too, but there was good stuff as well. And I try to, I, I, I try to, um, I try to care. I think what I've learned is in the gaming world, um, at least back then. Uh, and I, and I know this because a lot of the people who are at, uh, Stern used to be, you know, working, um, in, in, uh, the gaming world. And I've been told, I think this is, I want to say Greg Ferrer has told me that Kevin O'Connor said at one point, and I could be totally wrong, so I probably shouldn't even mention names. So I apologize, Kevin and Greg, if I'm wrong. But that that Kevin was used to say that they were nothing more than glorified carnival artists. And I don't know, like in my mind, I like I go, well, so does that mean like he felt he felt like they were treated that way? Or or was that actually like an endearing thing? when I see Kevin I gotta ask him but yeah I don't know if it's good or bad but but I get it and he's not wrong I don't think uh just on the level of essentially all you're trying to do is get someone's eye to look at something that's it at its core form and and um and I don't know if he meant that because I'm guessing I'm guessing their schedules were worse back then than they are now uh only because of how many games they were putting out uh back in in the heyday uh in particular but so well i was gonna say back in their day though you know uh we we talk about half-naked women on pinball because that's what it used to be so you you guys have overstepped that now and you don't have to do that anymore unless it's something like elvira which is empowering but uh yeah you look i have a world cup soccer i know kevin o'connor did the artwork on this one and it's i actually like it it's a little bit cheesy people say that the artwork's not that great. But I always joke though, it's like, we have all these soccer players and then we have a female ref in booty shorts right down the middle of the flippers. No, Kevin, Kevin's fantastic. I love Kevin, like Kevin and Greg, uh, um, obviously, uh, you know, Greg, Greg is sort of, uh, I guess I'd call him my mentor, uh, in, in, in the pinball space or whatever. I don't know if he'll, I don't know if he'll take that one or not, but, but, um, you know, uh, I look up to those guys. I mean, you know, the way they had to do things back in the days before we had computers with with doing optical prints and things like that, just to get to the point of of line is insane to me. And and I have the utmost respect. And I know that they also were working, you know, back then they produced way more games than they do now, technically, although we're getting close, aren't we now? Come on. Too many games in a year. Anyway, says the guy who just had two back to back. Anyway. No, there's way too. No, I'm just saying because I can't afford. But yeah, no, I don't I don't take that as a bad thing. And yes, at the end of the day, there has been that. I've never looked at it like I was going to improve anything that had been done. All I looked at was if I was going to do this, I wanted to do it my way and I wanted to hopefully get to do it again. And that was that was my only goal. And it's it's literally my only goal project by project. Well, I don't I don't foresee any time soon that people are going to say, you know what, we don't want any more zombie yeti. I mean, people, like I said, I feel like it's the standard and I don't mean any downplay to anyone else. I really appreciate what Franchi does, what Dirty Donnie does, Kevin O'Connor. I mean, the artwork nowadays is just above and beyond, especially anything that was produced in the 2000s and early 2010s.
    70:40
    And it's just there was a turn and I swear it was with either Magic Girl or Alice in Wonderland. That turn of this is what pinball art could be and should be. And ever since then, everything has been a step above the rest, especially. I think it opened the door. Basically, what you're saying is this is the turning point. This is once everybody saw that, they said, we want more of that style. And that really opened the door for other artists, you know, like Dirty Donnie, Franchi and all them to be able to do what they do. Is that what you're saying, Josh? Yes, that's what I'm saying. Well, so first off, somebody write a book quick so that I'll at least have a footnote in history, if that's true. Secondly, that's a joke. I don't really care. But secondly, I have it a little different. And I'm going to tell you right now, Dirty Donnie, when he did his work with – actually, I believe Tanya was the programmer when he did that first one-off Metallica. I think his work is what put John Papaduke on a search to find someone, and that's how he found me.
    72:02
    So I give Donnie the credit. I think Donnie changed things, but that just enabled me to come in and make my little mark on it or whatever. I mean, listen, at the end of the day, there's always somebody better at everything. And especially with art. I know there's better artists than me. I know there's better people out there. Now, do I think that there's a better person perfectly suited for the types of schedules and the types of frenetic work and stuff in pinball? um not right now uh most most of my artist friends that i try to be like hey would you be interested in pinball and i tell them the schedule and and sort of you know kind of the flow of it they're like not not a chance um but but again you know i was a user interface designer uh for years uh and and i think that lends itself um in particular when working on play fields and stuff like that. You know, so I don't know. I it's it's I just tripped and fell and stumbled down some stairs that sort of, you know, bent my spine in the right form to sit in this chair and do this. So did I tell you about that? I was in the hospital for a long time. No, you're not.
    73:28
    Horrible joke. Such a terrible analogy. The only way I could end it was with a joke. I'm sorry. It's good. It works.
    73:37
    You know, but, Kay, on the flip side, though, and coming a little bit back to the art, sometimes in the world before they could actually have games that had good art. So I'm thinking back in, like, Intellivision, Atari games. Sometimes they only had that one shot to sell the game. And some of those images were pretty amazing. I still think of the centipede art on the side cabinet. I think is one of the coolest art things. And, of course, it has very little to do with the gameplay because it was just pixelated dots.
    74:10
    But it really is iconic. And so some of that art back in the day was great and other was just trash. I completely agree. I think a lot of that was because the artist was left to do what they do. It was up to their imagination. Like how do you do that And so you know some artists need a lot of direction and some artists don And I think a lot of those folks who were you know essentially probably they came from the advertising world A lot of them were traditional painters or admin. Like, I think they excelled at that stuff. And obviously, you know, the good ones were usually snatched up by a company. And that's why you saw, you know, specific companies have good, good box art and specific companies have bad box art, Sega.
    75:08
    And and so, yeah, I completely agree with you. And, you know, it's funny because and this is a struggle I have all the time. And I know I forget who it was. Maybe it was maybe it was that Zack. Yeah, we haven't talked about Zack in a while and he doesn't get a lot of time on podcasts. So, Zach Meany, I'm calling you out. No, I think I saw a portion or somebody sent me a clip or something of them talking about the Avengers play field. I can't remember if it was him who said it or not, but something along the lines of they were surprised that, you know, usually I cram stuff all over a play field. And on the Avengers, it looked like I had some restraint, right? And I was like, I was like, you know, I don't know if that's an insult or not. I don't think it is. But but I want to say, like, my goal is is not just to cram stuff all over the place. I want to give you your money's worth. Don't get me wrong. But but at the same time, I try to I try to design things. So so here's an example. Do you know Mike Mignola, the creator of Hellboy?
    76:25
    Have you seen his artwork, obviously? Right. Yes. OK. Look at his work versus, let's say, someone like Jim Lee. And a lot of people objectively look at that and go, oh, my goodness, Jim Lee has so much more detail. Therefore, it's better.
    76:44
    I'm telling you right now, I'm calling you out, Jim Lee. That's not true. Mike Mignola and what he does is actually much more complicated. To be able to actually simplify forms and communicate information in that stylized manner and more of a designed manner is actually much more difficult. And so my struggle is always finding that middle ground between the two. and Avengers because of the, you know, because of the shortened timeframe and everything else really lent itself, uh, to me being able to do that. And the fact that I had to draw so many characters, I'm like, I don't want to clutter the spaces. I need to have, uh, openness, um, to be able to draw people to the silhouettes of these, these characters. So that was intentional. No, you know, it was actually quite thoughtful. And I don't take it as an insult. And I don't know if Zach said it or not. I just know that he doesn't get enough, you know, advertising in the podcast space. Not at all.
    77:57
    No, I do get exactly what you're talking about. Hellboy versus Jim Lee. It seems a little bit like Frank Miller. And if you look at. Absolutely. It's a completely different style. And it's also a perfect style. It's just a stylistic choice, and it doesn't have to be exactly what – if you look at what Jim Lee does, it looks very much exactly like you would anticipate the ideal comic book artist to be. But that doesn't mean every comic book artist has to be like that. Right. And at the same time, the amount of effort going between the two – now, I'm not saying Jim Lee doesn't spend more time than Mignola on something. Don't get me wrong. But what I'm saying is there's actually much more time and thought that goes into the way he, Mignola, crafts the simplicity. You know, it's not like, oh, I'm just I'm just using less lines. It takes less time. It's not quite that way. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my one of my final questions, we've talked a lot about video games tonight, and I don't know if you ever listened to us before, But Scott and I really do enjoy video games and think that the platform would lend well to pinball. If you could pick one video game license that you could do the artwork for pinball, it doesn't matter how obscure or how mainstream it is, what would you pick to do for pinball?
    79:19
    See, I have a terrible answer to that. Let's hear it. A really terrible answer to that that people will probably hate me for, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater. That would be awesome. I think it's like the perfect pinball crossover franchise, in my opinion. The idea of combos, the idea of stringing things together, obviously rails. Let's let's give it to Keith Ellen. Anyway, I think, in my opinion, especially the soundtrack, everything about it is perfect. And I've actually been talking about that so much because obviously the HD, you know, Tony Hawk one and two remake came out and I've been playing the heck out of it. Um, pretending like I, I'm, uh, I'm a young lad again. Uh, and by the way, I'm not nearly as good as I used to be. I'm not saying I'm bad, but for crying out loud, like, uh, is something changed because my timing on a reverts just, I don't know. Something's weird anyway. Um, sorry. Uh, it just, uh, something's off. Uh, but, um, but I love it and I don't care. Uh, Also, some of those new tracks on the soundtrack. Who cares for those? Let's turn those off, right?
    80:33
    I miss the old soundtracks. But yeah, that would be my answer. I could give other answers, but I think, in my opinion, in my head, that's the perfect fit. Okay. Could you please promise me that you're going to put some weird mustache on there like Skateball? So you can put Tony Hawk with that comb mustache that for some reason the dude's like 45 on skateball. The art is fantastically weird. So you're saying we should remake that one. I'm with you. Yeah. Well, put Tony Hawk but have that weird handlebar mustache or something. Oh, no. I was going to say, no, I completely agree. see and i think and and this is why i think your idea is genius on this one uh i just introduced my son to tony hawk's pro skater because i have it on my xbox 360 i downloaded it for whatever it was 10 bucks or whatever and he has been so addicted to that game the idea of all these combos and everything like that but also and this is this is selfish on my part this is probably the closest we'll ever get a ska song into a pinball machine oh my gosh let's get some drop this let's get some it's the worst music ever no it's not oh my gosh it's the music that 12 year old hat goes on his head while he gets an extra mozzarella stick with his with his combo okay are you gonna have him like do an aquabats theme now hey you said it i'm just your genius is bringing this up i'm i'm just gonna back it so hey can i just tell you the aquabats follow me on instagram okay That's listen, I'm big. I'm big. Anyway, I remember the day that I found that out and I went, what? Anyway, I so yeah, listen, I'm I'm all for it. I think I think it would make make perfect sense. I do have one other potential candidate that that I'm not ready to reveal yet. that I have an idea on and an angle on it that I actually do want to pitch to someone at Stern because I'm, I do think it has legs and I do think it's, it's something that could be done, but, and I'm not saying Tony Hawk doesn't either. Don't get me wrong, but I don't know that. I don't know that anyone's interested in that other than me. We, we might've missed the window with the HD remake coming out. I think so. But Hey, he's got, I've got my phone right now. Yeah. He's. Oh, you read my mind. I mean, no, not, Not to Jim. I was actually thinking Alex the Kid when you said, no one's going to like this. And I'm like, what? Like, because I grew up on Alex the Kid from the original Genesis. I love Alex the Kid. Absolutely. No, no, no. What about the classic Atari that will always be the best game they have ever made, E.T.? There you go. That's not bad. Hey, the play field could just have lots of pits. The ball just falls down in pits. Right. Because they went and the game was so bad, they buried it. That's the best part of the story. Like, it was so bad. They went out in the middle of nowhere and buried all the extra games that no one bought. Well, it's ironic, too, because that was part of the gameplay. Like, he literally would constantly fall down in these little holes and then, you know, get Reese's Pieces and whatever. What a terrible game.
    83:55
    That would be the wizard mode is you're burying all the games out there. You're collecting all the games to erase that it was ever made. Yeah. It'd be like Diamond Collect on Congo. You're just collecting one after another after another just to stick it in a pin.
    84:10
    I like the way you guys think. Do you want to start a pinball company? I have an idea for specialized legs. We'll start there. Yes. Okay, let's start there. You know, eight legs. It wants to be eight legs. That's what it is. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was going with six. Eight. That's brilliant. Octo-legged. Oh. Ouch. Oh, that sounds like a James Bond's reference, but I'm going to move on now. I've read those.
    84:41
    Oh, thank you, Austin Powers, for ruining my future, my love for James Bond. No kidding. No, no. All right. Well, I'm going to wrap this up. You know, you've been awesome, Mr. Jeremy Packard or Zombie Yeti. I don't know what you prefer, honestly. Well, I have no preference. I think Jeremy Packer is a boring name, but I think Zombie Yeti sounds dumb too. So I don't know. Whatever. I don't care. Okay. I will say I was on vacation over the weekend, and we watched all the Hotel Transylvania movies. And in the second one, when he – okay, this is out of left field. When they're thinking about moving to California, they're like, yeah, we have a lot of mixed couples. I invited some in the neighborhood, and he comes in and is like, and this is Melissa or whatever her name was, and she's married to a werewolf. And the guy is looking at her like, what?
    85:42
    Immediately I thought, that's Zombie Yeti right there. So first off, for clarification, you have children, right? That's why you were watching those? Yes, I do. I have three children.
    85:53
    I'm sorry. No, I do too. And so I watch a lot of things that are questionable in that very same way. No, those aren't bad. Actually, I love Genndy Tartakovsky, who did those films. So regardless of anything, I can't hate them because of his wonderful animation. Which, by the way, speaking of video games, quick plug, the Samurai Jack game that just came out, he actually helped work on it. It's actually worth playing. Really? I'm surprised. I have no idea about that game. Yes, I know. And it's on every platform. I think it's probably on your phone. uh but no i played it on xbox uh uh and and i loved it i couldn't stop playing it it was bizarre are you addicted to among us like everyone else is right now too oh my kids are playing they were playing that my kids oh my god my kids do it for me like i i love the memes uh i love um and i and i like uh watching but no i i have not actually played myself yet i'm telling you we we got to get an among us night together and uh i'll see who the imposter is it's gonna be a hoot so yeah i'm too busy stuck with like the nes the uh the nes where it's like uh i'll play contra but only if i can use the code for 30 people because there's zero chance i'm gonna play that game see yeah the kids are spoiled nowadays games are too easy yeah they don't remember how hard those games were like do you remember trying to play ghosts and goblins for the first time you want to know something like seven seconds i did you ever i ghouls and ghosts for sega genesis i'm sure you remember that one the the sequel i i could play that game and keep in mind you have to go through the game twice to beat it i could play that game uh and actually go through it and beat it with without any cheating whatsoever um that's how lonely of a child i was anyway Well, if it makes you feel any better, I actually sought out the hardest game ever made, the one that was voted the very hardest game ever made, which is Battletoads on the NES. And I dedicated myself to make sure I could beat that game, and I finally did. And whoever made that game, the first three levels are fun. The rest – the dude needs to be punched in the nose because that was just a ridiculously hard game. See, I thought you were going to go somewhere else with a punch. oh speaking of which see i'm now i'm giving myself away here i'm just getting us distracted from leaving um uh they just redid a brand new battle toads game on xbox um i know a lot of people this is a not a popular opinion it's it's actually enjoyable to play through it's not something you would ever go back to um but it's it's it breaks up the gameplay it's not terrible the style of it uh obviously i like uh bright uh and saturated uh colors uh so it was like eye candy to me um it's not terribly funny but there's like one joke in it where i go boy i wish all the humor was like that um but uh but it's if you like battle toads uh you'll love this because um you you can't fail at it it's it's made for the the the kids nowadays see and i'm going back through super mario 64 right now because it got re-released for the switch and holy crap i don't when did that game become so hard i remember as a child it was a cakewalk and now hey you you had a lot more time on your hand no no i'm going to tell you what it is i'm going to tell you what it is this is and by the way angles no it it has everything to do with the n64 controller and the fact that that analog stick was a higher uh height than analog sticks are nowadays so so you had a little more control and it actually had uh crevices to lock into specific places and the camera would would turn so you could always get the camera perfectly behind and actually get perfectly going forward backwards or to to different degrees uh in between so i personally i'm telling you that's what it is because i played it on uh a super nintendo or Nintendo 64 not long ago, and that's the difference. That's what's making it harder for you because you can pretty much just sort of meander wherever you want, and you don't have quite the sensitivity from a stop to a run. Gotcha. Okay, Josh. I'm sorry. I'm a nerd. No, hey, we're nerds too. Hey, I have a Nintendo 64 still in my house, and so just get the game and bring it over, and we'll figure out how to play it. I've got my N64 as well. We'll do a game night. I've also got my old NES. And if you want to play Battletoads on the old NES, I got it. I don't think I have that. I do have a Game Genie, though. And I bought like 90 games when they were like three bucks each back in the early days. Smart. Yeah.
    90:53
    Those 90 games are now worth at least $90. Exactly. $92. No, no. Actually, you've probably got some gems in there. Trust me. that's uh but anyway uh no i will listen i appreciate it you guys uh were fantastic uh and you made me feel good um i will probably go to bed tonight um without crying uh this is the first um no i'm i'm joking uh no blisters on the hand from working so hard yeah no no exactly no no i i no listen i i thank uh you guys i thank the pinball community uh for uh allowing me to keep doing this and obviously uh i thank the overlords at stern who continue to trust me um and let me work uh hopefully i'll get to do it a few more times and hopefully uh i won't have games releasing back to back ever again well i'm hoping your game is coming to my house next week so that's the plan so i hope so too because i'm gonna claim i'm sick and go to scott's house so that way i can skip work and get to play new avengers that'd be awesome oh you'll love it You'll absolutely love it, and not because of the artwork. Except that middle ramp on Turtles, I think, was designed by Satan. I cannot hate it. Seriously? Oh, there's a time. So, well, I'll tell you the inside baseball John Borg told me. He said, turn the flipper power up all the way, because it's not by default. Because he likes to just jam it up in there, right? Like, that's his whole thing. I don't do that. I actually have a thing where I think it intentionally has to be a combo shot to get it up. So, like, I'll basically do the crane combo, and with the speed coming around the second time, that's the only way I can get the power to get it up there. But I'm pretty consistent, I think. Oh, geez. It is dumb luck if I hit that shot. Really? It's crazy. Oh, yeah. And I'm chimp flipping it. I'm trying to hit it as much as like, it's just, no. And what I do is when I launch, I actually do like the, the second stage. So I pushed it in. So the lower flippers activated and the other ones not. And so I just wait and I try to hit it. So don't, don't just, just don't even do the second stage thing. Just, just bang that thing. Like literally as it's coming around from a full launch, um, it's, it's, you want to hit it right, right about the timing is just when it's, it's passing, uh, over the flipper so that you're hitting it right on the tip and it'll work every time. Like, like it's at least at the, you know, I think I've got mine adjusted, uh, uh, correctly. Uh, it seems, it seems to work for me every time. It's just a matter of, of being just a hair too fast or too slow if it doesn't happen but but you know the shot that kills me and this is this is mind-numbing is uh is actually the the pizza parlor shot for some reason for some reason i i have to hit that from the left flipper and actually bounce it off of the pizza target uh to send yeah yeah which is the stupidest thing ever i don't know why that shot gives me trouble but it does. I always seem I can't hit it under pressure. All of a sudden I'm rattling around and I'm hitting. No, listen, I can't play under pressure. I could not do. I was watching the Stern TMNT, you know, little mini competition thing the other week, which, by the way, was fantastic. And I'm watching them, you know, do these little tiny challenges and I'm going, holy crap, I could do that one just as fast or faster. And then I go, oh, wait a minute, but not if I had to do it on demand.
    94:43
    Like, like it wouldn't happen at all. I couldn't do it. So if someone wants to get ahold of you, Jeremy, where, where do you want to be chatted at? I guess. I don't know, man. Like, I don't know. I'm terrible. Just leave a comment on your Facebook. You know, yeah. Postcard Instagram, my Instagram, which is just, you know, zombie yeti uh or or uh facebook uh zombie yeti also uh whatever like those are the easiest places but i'm really bad about uh messages so like post on like an actual like like post or whatever or comment on an actual post and say that you messaged me and then i'll look for it there you go i'm terrible and scott where can they find us uh actually um the easiest place is to to message either of us on Facebook or Loser Kid Pinball. We also have an email, Josh, that goes to Josh. What is it?
    95:43
    LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com. All right. Oh, lastly, let's – yeah, well, I'm sorry. I apologize. I want to add one thing. Let's not forget about – if you need a pinball machine, go to Flippin' Out. Talk to Zach Meaney at Flippin' Out. Oh, man. I totally forgot to talk about that. Hey, and we, as any special, very special guest, it's a very special episode, we will send you out a hat. And we do have some. We haven't been pushing them lately, but we do have hats and beanies, and it's getting to be winter season. So if you're interested, contact us, and we can get you one of those boss hats or beanies out. And I'll throw a grab bag of stickers in there because I've been getting them from Sticker Mule because they're cheap and fun. So I want to go to sticker robot. Anyway, go on. No, it's no. I will return the favor. I've got goodies. Nice. Awesome. I want to end it on one thing. This is I want me a 30 second answer. You got to pick between your two children, Avengers or T.H. Mutant Eternals by the Golden Standard. Which one are you giving the Twippy this year? Oh, Lord.
    96:58
    I man, I'm not neither. Neither. Neither. It's going to go to something else. I don't I don't know. I listen. I don't know. I'm not saying if it goes to something else. If you had to pick if you if you had to pick between the two. Yes. If you had to pick between the two projects, which one you given it to? Oh, geez. I can't. I can't. That's like ask it like which one. Which one of you your kids is your favorite? My middle kid. Oh, he's got a choice. Awful. okay okay okay he's actually not my favorite kid but i know like when i'm in the retirement center he's the one who's going to come and take care of me so he's my sweetest kid my other one would be like whatever dad peace out that poor kid what a wonderful note so you doubled down on on just first off you picked a kid then you doubled down and said no he's not my favorite no no i know what i said is that i You don't have a favorite kid, but he's the one who's going to take care of you. Oh, okay. That's better. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
    98:04
    That is a wonderful note. We're going to end it there. Thank you so much, Zombie Yeti, for coming on. We really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to come hang out with some schmucks like us. Would you believe I was working the whole time? But go on, yes. Yes, I believe nonstop. It's 11 o'clock where you're at, and you're still just penciling away on the next project. Well, it's the Tony Hawk re-theme. We all know. Oh, hey, hey, hey. It's just a pitch. No, I'm kidding. No, it's not that. I wish it was.
    98:32
    Well, you've got a small salt, so. Okay, good, good. Oh, and by the way, could you guys possibly get, like, a certified letter talking about all that stuff about I should be paid lots of money and junk like that? Could you get that? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we have a lot of sway with Stern. Sure, absolutely. I'm well, listen, I'm well taken care of. Stern's very kind to me. Otherwise, I wouldn't be spending. No, no. They're very kind. They're very nice.
    98:56
    Well, thank you again for coming on. Bye.