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Episode 95 - No

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 24m·analyzed·Aug 25, 2019
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Dennis promoted; Dutch Pinball updates on ARA settlement and restart plans spark skepticism from hosts.

Summary

Dennis and Tony of Eclectic Gamers discuss Dennis's promotion to superintendent and his purchase of a Nikon D5600 camera as a hobby. The episode covers legal updates on the Predator pinball dispute (Nathanson's appeal of sanctions denial), and extensively analyzes Dutch Pinball settlement with ARA manufacturer. Barry's statement indicates games and parts are now owned and paid for, with restart plans involving friends/family loans and hand-assembly operations. The hosts express skepticism about the sustainability of Dutch Pinball coffee-cup-bailing approach to recovery.

Key Claims

  • Dutch Pinball received settlement from ARA manufacturer; all games and parts are now fully paid for and owned by Dutch Pinball

    high confidence · Direct quote from Barry's official update dated January, published in show notes

  • Sale of 40 Big Lebowski machines at $12,500 each ($500k) did not fully cover the ARRA settlement amount

    medium confidence · Dennis references Pinball News/Magazine podcast interview with Barry/John Offended; inference from Barry's mention of friends/family support

  • Nathanson's appeal of sanctions in Fife/Predator case was denied; sanctions stood

    high confidence · Dennis reviewed appellate decision document found in legal journals; Fife's attorney successfully argued frivolous claim

  • Dutch Pinball has parts inventory for 200+ games but lacks complete sets for all pre-orders; some components must be ordered

    high confidence · Direct quote from Barry's update: 'Some parts there are for 200 plus games, but some parts were bought lean'

  • Dutch Pinball license with Universal Pictures extended through December 31, 2025 (not 2020 as stated in broadcast)

    high confidence · Barry's official statement in show notes

  • Spooky Pinball operates at approximately 10-12 machines per week output capacity (~500 units/year)

    medium confidence · Dennis's estimate based on industry knowledge; no specific source cited

  • Dennis's grant reports were praised as better than his predecessor's

    high confidence · Direct statement from Dennis: 'someone say that they thought my grant reports were better than my predecessor's'

Notable Quotes

  • “It's like, we're going to have to sell X and then we can ship one out to an early achiever. That's the model. That's a crap model.”

    Tony @ ~1:25:00 — Characterization of Dutch Pinball's financing model as unsustainable 'Ponzi scheme approach' also seen with Highway Pinball

  • “It is literally, the Titanic is sinking, and they're running around with a coffee cup trying to bail the water out of it.”

    Dennis @ ~1:22:00 — Harsh metaphor for Dutch Pinball's survival strategy through hand-assembly and slow output

  • “You're not investors, you're customers. You're mistreated customers. You're terribly mistreated customers.”

    Dennis @ ~1:26:00 — Direct criticism of pre-order customer treatment; implies legal action should have been taken

  • “My read on this is to get the rest of the money, to get all of the inventory, he's been given loans or gifts. That would be my guess.”

    Dennis @ ~52:00 — Inference that friends/family financial support was required beyond the $500k from Big Lebowski sales

  • “Why does he not know the location to do his little home build yet? This has been going on for months. Why are these things not planned already?”

    Dennis @ ~1:19:00 — Skepticism about Dutch Pinball's apparent lack of operational planning despite months of delays

  • “He was never going to get Ara to build more. Right. He had to have a plan.”

    Tony @ ~1:17:00 — Indicates ARA (former manufacturer) unwillingness to continue production was known; hand-assembly was backup plan

  • “Nathanson never would produce said evidence. He just kept saying Kevin said that he loaned them to you. Just trusting.”

    Dennis @ ~35:00 — Key detail in Predator legal case: lack of documentary evidence led to sanctions against Nathanson

  • “I poured that passion. That passion we showed when we talked about how much we liked Wonka. It's like that, but in writing. You just got to pour it.”

Entities

Dutch PinballcompanyBarrypersonKevin KulikpersonTim FifepersonNathansonpersonDennis NordmanpersonTonypersonARAcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball attempting hand-assembly operation with inexperienced workforce in attempt to achieve profitability; hosts skeptical of viability

    high · Dennis: 'Everything about this screams basically me and my friends are going to try...coffee cup trying to bail water out'; questions sustainable output without paid workforce

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball lacks complete parts inventory for all pre-orders; 'some parts were bought lean' requiring new part orders as production progresses

    high · Barry's update: 'Some parts there are for 200 plus games, but some parts were bought lean. And this means we also have to order new parts as we progress'

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball's restart plan relies on unpaid or low-paid friends/family hand-assembly, with no clear sustainable revenue model despite 15-month license extension

    high · Barry's statement mentions 'friends and family who made this possible'; Dennis notes they cannot compete with Spooky's 500/year output; questions how long unpaid assembly line will function

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball secured license extension with Universal Pictures through December 31, 2025 despite financial distress and production delays

    high · Barry's statement: 'I am happy to report we have extended the license. For now, it is extended until December 31st of 2025' (note: broadcast said 2020 but update shows 2025)

  • ?

    community_signal: Extended legal dispute between Nathanson/Kulik bankruptcy trustee and Tim Fife over Predator machine ownership; Nathanson's appeal of sanctions was denied

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.254

0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Saturday, August 24th. This is episode 95. I'm Tony. I'm Dennis. Why is it Saturday? It's Saturday because we're having the birthday party for my daughter tomorrow. Oh. So. And she didn't want to star on a podcast? No. No, we figured that'd be a little too much for her. She's going to be excited enough with all the family coming over and all the presents and everything. Presents? Wow. I know. We give our kids presents on their birthdays. It's terrible. I know it makes us horrible people. Well, it's just a different sort of upbringing. It is. But I do understand.
1:00
Well, what's been going on, Tony? Big things I know. Big things. I am no longer the interim superintendent. No. I have been hired, and I am now just the superintendent. So congratulations. Thank you.
1:16
It's going to be a transition. It's going to take a while to get, even with the interim work, it's going to take a while to get fully transitioned. I'm still, because of the openings between my position that was open and a couple other open positions, we're shorthanded enough that I'm still doing pretty much all of the work that I was doing before, in addition to all the administrative work I'm doing now, just like I did when I was interim. That's probably going to continue for another month or two. But you're going to hear a lot less of the comments about, well, I'm on call, well, I'm on call because I'm not on call. No, your salary, unlimited power. I'm on call 24-7 now, 365, but the call now is only when something really bad happened. And it isn't the, well, I have to go in every weekend and do in-work for four hours and I take all the alarms. It's now my calls are going to be, well, we tried all the normal stuff and it didn't work and we're having an issue type stuff. and more personnel stuff, or like, hey, I woke up to come to work this morning, I've got four flat tires, and then I vomited, that kind of thing. That's a lot of flats. You might have an enemy at that level. Yeah, probably. That or they were trying to drive the road to McCarthy in Alaska. That road. Reference for you, Alaskans. Have fun with that. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Dennis @ ~12:00 — Humorous explanation of writing approach to grant reports; no substantive content significance

Spooky Pinball
company
CoinTakerorganization
Kerry Wingperson
Jack Dangerperson
Steve Bowdenperson
Universal Picturescompany
Predatorgame
Big Lebowskigame
Skip Bcompany

high · Dennis reviewed appellate decision; frivolous claim sustained; Nathanson provided no evidence despite multiple opportunities; court ordered sanctions

  • $

    market_signal: Pre-order financing model characterized as unsustainable 'Ponzi scheme approach' similar to Highway Pinball's Alien scheme

    medium · Tony states: 'It's the model. That's a crap model' in reference to selling X units to fund subsequent shipments

  • $

    market_signal: Big Lebowski sales at $12,500 generated $500k but did not fully satisfy ARA settlement; Dutch Pinball required additional friends/family loans

    high · Barry states 'friends and family made this possible'; Dennis explicitly interprets this as loans/gifts required beyond sales revenue

  • ?

    product_strategy: Dutch Pinball still unable to confirm facility location for restart despite months of planning; vague statement about 'couple of locations in mind'

    high · Barry states 'we still have to decide which location is best' in update; Dennis notes 'why does he not know the location yet?' after months of delays

    • 2:40
    Awesome. Okay, well, good. Stability, power, money, all at once. It's hard to deny. and possibly we're trying to get everything lined up but there's a big conference in Chicago at the end of September and I might be going. It's not 100% yet but that would mean I'm going to have to decide because I'm only going to have a few hours of time that's not blocked out with all conferences.
    3:12
    I'm looking at going up a day early. not well, not technically the day before which will give me a few hours in the evening to do some stuff so right now I'm leaning towards using that time until I go to Logan Arcade if I'm in Chicago that'd be interesting we'll just have to see if it all works out you should reach out to Jack Danger and see if he wants to let you come into the studio and stream with him oh that would be good You and Jack are buds. I can make everybody look good, just like I always do when I play pinball. Well, Jack's such a high-level player. I mean, most of the people who go against him aren't at his skill level. But it's the thought that counts. It's the thought that counts. So, yep, that's where I'm leaning right now. How have you been? Busy. I, of course, have been working on some preliminary budget stuff at work, a lot of grant submissions, which I'm not a grant writer by training. But I figure, hey, I've written some pinball articles. I can write grant reports. That's the same thing, basically. I had someone say that they thought my grant reports were better than my predecessor's grant reports. So I didn't go back and read hers and be like, I'm going to do them better.
    4:23
    I just put in all that passion. You just poured the passion. Yeah, I poured that passion. That passion we showed when we talked about how much we liked Wonka. It's like that, but in writing. You just got to pour it.
    4:33
    Yeah, it's like I'm like the Mrs. Butterworth of passion. Sticky and sweet all up in you. All up in your grill. Wow. So I've been doing work on that. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry about that. But not too sorry. Oh, I do have a correction from the last episode. I mistakenly said when we were talking about, you might remember, it was our drama episode. Oh, yeah. We had a lot of people reach out, at least directly to me, saying that they appreciated the episode, including people that didn't agree with us, that said that they appreciated our take on it. Nobody reached out to me. Did they not? No. Maybe you're too busy to notice that. And when they email the EGP ones, once I'm done with their emails, I just delete them. Right. I don't even mention them.
    5:20
    That's always hilarious to me because you'll talk about it. I'm like, but when I checked the account the other day, there was nothing there. I have. It's not. I don't think it's an obsessive thing because I don't do it on my personal or my work emails. But on the EGP email inbox, I want it to be empty. I just really want it to stay empty. So I feel like I've achieved something when I clean it out. You could create a storage folder. There are some, but as long as the inbox is empty, and usually I don't bother with a storage folder. The shelf life on most of these correspondents is not good, so it's better just to purge it. But my correction is, when we were talking about the Tommy at Nitro Pinball and the whole, the wife, the assault event and everything, I said that that assault event happened before Pintastic. Well, yes, it was before Pentastic because Pentastic was very recent. It was actually just like the day before the Northwest Pinball Show was where that happened, not Pentastic. So I said the wrong event. Other than that, I have done some streaming. I've been trying to stream every Wednesday. That's usually like the safest day for me. Right. Overwatch League wrapping up. Like this week, I was able to stream yesterday as well. Yeah, because it's Kit Kat Rivalry weekend. Yeah, it's Kit Kat Rivalry weekend. but that's not for a few more hours. And so in the course of this last two-week stretch, I've actually set new high scores for me on Jurassic Park, Sharky's Shootout, and Jax to Open. So I was really surprised. And Jurassic Park, I finally got the grand champion. It's always been that default Chad H. grand champion. Right. So, and those were all on stream. So I have them up on the YouTube if anyone cares to see, you know, what. I think I'm going to start going by Mini Elwynn.
    7:10
    Melwyn. I'm Melwyn. Who's Melwyn? You see, it's Keith Elwyn's little cousin. Melwyn. I was doing the Jackson Open last night, and I had like three sort of bounce-backs with the center post in a row and some quick saves. I'm just like Mini Elwyn up in here. So I just decided, yeah, I think I'm the mini-L one now But it's like, oh, okay, so that's our Well, and it was like when we went to Pizza West Yeah Last weekend I didn't get top three, but I did better than I thought I would Especially as quickly as I went into the loser's bracket I went into and out, because after all the joy that I had at 403 Club You're spent When I rolled into Pizza West, my very first roll was against Kerry Wing.
    8:04
    Super champion pinball player. Nationally renowned. Internationally, because the Canadians like to mention her a lot. Yeah. And then my next round was against Steve. The number one player in Kansas? Steve? Yeah. Okay.
    8:18
    I actually... I'm pretty sure the Fates just went like, man, you did real good two weeks ago, so you know what? We're just going to kick you in the ball bag. I think you left while I was playing Steve. I did. bracket because we were on Guardians of the Galaxy, which he put his name in. Well, I did not put my name in it. He put his name in it when me and him played it also. So he knew what to do. That's not very fair at all. Yeah. Though I did actually beat him after you left. Did you? Yeah. Went to Firepower.
    8:52
    Which is a bit of a crapshoot and he loves 80s games. Then he chose, we were doing a loser could pick position or game and uh getaway went to getaway and i had one of my not my best getaway game ever but probably in the top three i just hit a lot of stuff that worked out and that night was the first time that i won the video mode on getaway i never have in in full speed been able to i know it's easy everyone listening but it's not been easy for me and i did it you moved i did it twice you gotta get that one spot i don't think that was against steve steve just had a really rough game on it but um and then I was destroyed later.
    9:32
    As is my fate. So speaking of fate, there's no fate but what we make. We forgot to mention one thing. I forgot to mention one thing. Yeah, you forgot. I don't forget anything.
    9:46
    I did get some feedback on my hobby questions. Oh yeah, HobbyGate. You don't have time for a hobby or supervisor now. I know.
    9:55
    Because I talked to on the Game in 10 Minutes Discord, we were talking about bicycling. Because my issue is since my back surgery a decade ago, I can't lean over my bike that I have now. It hurts. It hurts too bad to use. Because it's got too harsh of a forward lean and my back doesn't like it. So we've talked about different bikes and this and that. And then in our Discord, had a conversation about FPV drone racing. I hadn't thought about that one. I thought about getting a drone at one time. I knew you'd thought about drones before. But I decided I wouldn't have a use case that would make it worth that kind of money drop. You're not going to become a roof inspector? No. Because I hear that they work well for that. I bet they do.
    10:41
    But the first person racing thing is something to consider. I'm going to start researching it. I did spend a chunk of my pinball machine money, though. Mm-hmm. I went ahead and purchased a new actual good DSLR camera. Oh, yes. Yes. So for the listeners who probably do not know, you were very big into photography, photojournalism. Yeah. Years and years ago. Yeah. Up until I was in my mid to late 20s, I did photography continuously. About the time the switch from actual film cameras to digital cameras happened is when I kind of stopped. so I'm just kind of putting my toes back in the water. So did you go with a Canon or a Nikon? I went with a Nikon B5600. Mid-range, not, it's not the one, it's not one of the ones I would have really wanted but all the cameras that I really wanted are like, you know, between $2,000 and $3,000 and I'm not willing to dive full on into the water. I'm just going to put my toes back into it. So. Well, cool. So my pinball fund has been heavily reduced. Mm-hmm. Well, with your new position, you'll be able to refill it. Eventually. But everything takes time. Everything takes time. But hey, now with a camera, you have a hobby you can do outside. Yes, I do. So problem solved. Courtney, the problem is solved. Does she listen? No. Courtney, listen. The problem is solved. She doesn't listen. She doesn't. Will she listen if I ask her to like that? No. Oh, okay. Wow. All right. Back to fate. Our fate is to cover pinball, and then we'll cover video games. So we do have a few news items This time we're not going to be a drama Focused episode though Looking at this are you sure No it's different This is different no No Okay item one Is this a high Drama item Is this an item with a History of drama How is an item that is directly tied to court cases not having drama. Episode 95's title, by the way, will be No.
    12:59
    No! No! Do it again! Once more, the Sith will rule Pinball. We're not going to turn this into just an Emperor Palpatine podcast, are we? Why wasn't my voice used in the Star Wars?
    13:26
    The Star Wars Home Edition by Stern Pinball. Oh, man, a Sith Edition pinball machine. Just nothing but... Oh, that'd be awesome. Execute order $6,000 pros.
    13:43
    Okay. All right. Oh, God. Okay. But no, it's not at all about that. It's not about Stern Pinball. we're going to talk about Skit B no drama in Skit B, not at all we made our name Steve Bowden from Fun With Bonus who remembers whenever he mentions our show to me which has happened twice it's been, oh yeah you guys are the ones that really went in and explained what was going on legally with Skit B but I haven't known anything about Skit B in forever so I haven't been able to sound smart well, alright So I have an update. Now, to be fair, this update is dated. It's from January. Oh, yeah. It's only August. I only found out last week. But that's because I don't recall seeing it reported anywhere. So we're going to cover it now. Okay. All right. So this is regarding a tangential incident that I believe we touched on. So we are continuing the thread. It's just you guys got to go back like 25 episodes before you get to it. All right. So for those that don't remember, Skip B was the name of the quote unquote company that wasn't really a company. Yes, Tony is there quoting accurately with Kevin Kulik. This is the predator pinball machine.
    15:03
    The trustee has a special litigation counsel. His last name is Nathanson. That's been the person who's been pursuing the bankruptcy work, got the bankruptcy. Kulik withdrew the bankruptcy request because there were a lot of things that looked fishy with the submission.
    15:22
    But there was an instance that involved another pinball person known as Tim Fife. And there was a Predator machine that at one point was possessed by Fife. And Nathanson had been arguing that the pinball machine was loaned to Fife by Kevin Kulik. So the way that and that's what this update is about, because there was a there was a claim about from Fife's attorney arguing that sanctions should be applied against Nathanson for how he handled this. And the court granted the sanctions. This update from January is there was an attempt by Nathanson to appeal those sanctions and he lost that appeal. so that might be why I believe Nathanson used to post on Pinside this might be part of the reason why we don't see that I don't know that that's speculation but my understanding of the events are and I read this court case the appeal that's what happened I searched for Skip B and I found information on the appellate decision come up in one of the legal journals online so what happened was Nathanson had heard from Kevin Kulik that Fife possessed the Predator and also that sequel game that was going to be kind of like Mythbusters, the Experts of Dangerous Game. Right. And that he, he being Kevin, still owned the games. Like, they were a loan to Fife for research purposes. That was what Nathanson said Kulik had claimed.
    16:56
    Fife, when he was deposed, I believe, said that he bought those games. And he didn't even buy them from Kevin. He bought them from a third-party person. And so when this moved forward, though, Nathanson tried to claw back those games as assets to be, I assume, liquidated to help fund the creditors, the trustees trying to protect. But what happened is when he did that, Fife indicated, well, Nathanson didn't produce any evidence that Fife's statement was incorrect. Spife's like, I bought these. I didn't buy them from Kevin. I bought these. I own these. Where's your evidence that I don't own these? And apparently, Nathanson never would produce said evidence. He just kept saying Kevin said that he loaned them to you. Just trusting. Yeah, but I guess like the, I don't know if the transcripts or recordings, they weren't even produced showing that that was the case. That's my understanding. I apologize for any errors in my recollection. So ultimately, Fife, through his attorney, requested sanctions because he says, Nathanson's claim was frivolous and you made me spend time and money on my attorney to defend on an obviously frivolous claim where there were plenty of opportunities for him to withdraw from this accusation that I have these loaner games and don't own them. But he would never back down. Right. So there was a series of – I'm not going to go into the series of reasons why – what the grounds for the appeal arguments were, but they essentially all failed. So ultimately the sanctions stood as, yeah, there were a lot of opportunities where he either could have produced the evidence to help argue – make a case that there is a reasonable reason to think that Fife didn't own the games, but that never happened. and because of that it yeah it ultimately was a big waste of time so anyway that's it for i don't have any news on kevin i don't know where kevin is but that's my skip b update see i don't think that was too dramatic because it was really only about this tangential thing um which i don't think i'm not sure i want to think maybe i saw fife doesn't even have these games anymore at this point that they may have moved on but i could be wrong on that but hmm but i mean he even said who we bought them from and so I just I simplified this for for for the listeners because it's just easier that way it's just easier and this I mean this isn't as exciting as our next topic Dutch pinball but I do have a link in the show notes to the appeal decision so for those of you that are interested in legal dramas you can sit there and read it it's not a particularly long read to get through and see all the the appellate reasoning for why the denial of the appeal happens. It walks you through the history of a lot of these accusations. So if you like to read about Predator, it gets mentioned several times.
    19:53
    So, speaking about Predators, let's go to Dutch Pinball. Oh yeah, no drama in Dutch Pinball. Look, there's no drama here.
    20:01
    There's no drama here. There's no drama in Dutch Pinball. There's no drama. Let's be honest. It might as well just be called Drama Pinball at this point. No, no one wants that theme. Except you when you created that theme for drama, the drama, the drama, or inside the drama machine or whatever your idea was. The pinball drama. Pinball, the drama. Yeah.
    20:26
    The Big Lebowski's that Dutch Pinball at once upon a time had made. The ones that were in the ARA warehouse, they have finally shipped. At least some of them have been shipped out. There is an update from Dutch Pinball. I have a link in the show notes so anyone who wants to read it. I'm going to go ahead and go through most of it because I'd like us to kind of discuss that. I think that's the interesting part to really weigh in on, not the shipping side of it. So this is from Barry.
    20:58
    In the last update, I informed you on the settlement I've reached with our former manufacturer. And two weeks ago, we managed to complete the settlement. This means that the lawsuit is off table and all games and parts that are in their warehouse are now ours and also fully paid for With this first round of financing we are now ready to get things set up again to build games I'm very happy with the trust of Cointaker and some of my very close friends and family who made this possible. Due to the holiday of three weeks at ARA, we had limited access to the warehouse, but fortunately, we managed to get the games out, and some parts we need to finish them. Last week, the first games were shipped. The rest of the games are now ready as well and will be shipped this week. I know it's a bittersweet moment, but it's also the start of a new beginning. We can now truly focus on the future. On Monday next week, the holiday will be over, and then we can start with the transport of all the parts. We are already checking the list of parts and taking stock of how many parts we have to build games. Some parts there are for 200 plus games, but some parts were bought lean. And this means we also have to order new parts as we progress. In the next weeks, we will be busy preparing everything for production. Arranging our production facility, counting parts, putting all the parts in our inventory system, checking the assembly instructions, sorting out the tools needed, etc. We will start small and will expand over time to build more games. We have a couple of locations in mind where we want to restart our business.
    22:34
    We still have to decide which location is best, and we hope to get this figured out this or next week. Another thing I want to inform you about is something I get a lot of questions about, the license from Universal Pictures. I am happy to report we have extended the license. For now, it is extended until December 31st of 2020. I will keep you informed of how things are progressing the coming weeks. If you have any questions, please let me know. All right. So that's the message from Barry. There are a few pieces here that I want to go in on. Maybe the best way to kind of tackle it is paragraph by paragraph. I think that's a good idea. So in the first paragraph, he really talks about the thing I think was noteworthy is that he said that all the games and parts in the warehouse are now his. and fully paid for. When I heard on Pinball News, Pinball Magazine podcast, where they interviewed Barry, or John offended, he indicated that what he had heard from Barry was that half a million dollars generated by selling those 40 Big Lebowskis at $12,500 a pop did not fully satisfy the ARRA settlement that they reached. It wasn't the full amount. He says later in this same paragraph that very close friends and family made it possible. So my read on this is to get the rest of the money, to get all of the inventory, he's been given loans or gifts. That would be my guess. That's why I take it. The mention of Cointaker in there kind of bothers me. Well, my read on that was the happy with the trust of Cointaker was at some point there had to be a willingness to exchange the money and then get the games. Yeah. I know a lot of people assumed that maybe an escrow service was used or something to confirm that once the games were shipped, okay, here's your money. I would hope so. Or here's a confirmation of the money. You will get it, but you have to release the games first. Or maybe not. Maybe it was a, okay, the money is ready. We're going to go ahead and give it to you because you need to give it to Aura before they'll let you ship them or something. So that might be all that is there.
    24:52
    It could be. But that could still have been recourse. So like Aura could have had an under, I mean, there could have been something stated that if the games don't get shipped, Coin Taker has the legal right to claw back the money or something. I don't know. So anything else about this first element on, I mean, I get that he'd have to go to friends and family because I can't imagine an investor getting involved. No, there's no way. There's no angel investor who's going to step in and into a giant pile of dog doo this large and just start handing out money. I'm going to guess, because I have nothing else to base on, that these are not gifts, that these were loans, probably 0% loans from friends. Probably. That would be my assumption. Or extra mortgages on people's houses type thing. Stuff like that.
    25:41
    Yeah, no. I feel terrible for those people honestly I feel terrible for those people I feel terrible for everybody involved here this entire situation maybe I'll be proven wrong but going through this section let me give you the translation to what I feel like going through this section especially the end we can now truly focus on the future translation we can now truly focus on more people and getting more money because that's what it is. Well, I mean, the model that's been promoted has commonly been referred to as the Ponzi scheme approach. And we've seen it proposed with others, Highway Pinball in particular, with Alien about the whole, we're going to have to sell X and then we can ship one out to an early achiever. That's the model.
    26:35
    That's a crap model. And so most of the rest of this message, I mean the second paragraph is just about the shipping And the bittersweet whatever And the third paragraph talks about them looking at the parts So they do indicate They don't have enough parts To build All of the games that would still be needed Right Just to satisfy the EA's that's how I read that 200 plus sure they could So maybe they have enough posts or flipper bats But do they have enough Bowling mechs I mean isn't that the complicated weird thing Stuff like that So then the rest of this is all about getting ready. Okay, so he's got the license extended. So this is a set up to build more games.
    27:20
    You mentioned the garage in terms of assembly because he did state that they need to – they're going to start small and expand over time, and they have a couple locations where they want to restart the business. Do you think location means contract manufacturer or location means a facility to do it with his friends? I don't think a contract manufacturer will touch him without so much money up front he can't afford it. I think based off of this phrasing that you're correct. There's no way. Here's an interesting question to me, and this is a little flippant, but why does he not know the location to do his little home build yet? this has been going on for months. Why are these things not... Why has this not been planned already? It's the same question we've had. He was never going to get Ara to build more. Right.
    28:16
    He had to have a plan. The only thing I can figure out is that because there's so many parts and he had to find some place to store them, is he's looking for a place that's large enough so it's not just sitting in a storage locker somewhere. Right. Okay. That he's wanting to find a place that's affordable, is big enough to store all the parts, and has enough floor space that they can start hand-assembling machines. Okay. Because every single thing about this is that's how it reads. You're going to start seeing hand-assembled machines. Yeah. Checking the assembly instructions made me think that as well. Everything about this screams basically me and my friends are going to try and see if we can't put together enough to get enough sold, to get enough stuff bought, to get enough sold, to keep this company on its feet.
    29:03
    It is literally, the Titanic is sinking, and they're running around with a coffee cup trying to bail the water out of it. So let's talk about that as a concept, because you clearly don't seem to think that that's a very workable solution. You don't seem to have a lot of faith in the coffee cup.
    29:22
    I think I've made my position on Dutch Pinball pretty clear over the last, you know. Or that they were going to just build them themselves. They being buried and his buddies are buried by himself. Yeah, that makes me feel so much better. I mean, yeah. Okay.
    29:42
    Here's the issue. If they're trying to do this, and I'm still, I don't even know why I'm using that. I don't know who's, Dutch in there, quote unquote, investors. And that's not the people who pre-ordered. You're not investors, you're customers. know what you are. You're mistreated customers. You're terribly mistreated customers. You should have litigated and that's on you too. I don't care if it's in Europe. You should have done something well before this. But I love him. I remember that episode. That was much more modern than the Skip B ones were.
    30:17
    It's like, guys, no. Because Aura had a judgment in hand. So now Aura's satisfied and what assets are left, a pile of posts, a pile of flipper bats. I mean, it's like, but let's talk about the self-manufacturing. Okay.
    30:35
    Physically putting together a pinball machine, when you have all the parts, my understanding, not really all that difficult. When people say pinball is hard, they don't mean that part. But- That's time consuming. It's time consuming, yes. And it's got lots of fiddly bits. Yes. So let's consider when you look at a company like Spooky, has an assembly line, has been doing it for a while, has paid assembly line workers, permanent workers that they keep busy. Who are experienced. What is their output? 10 games a week? I think it's around 10, 10 to 12. Okay. They basically, at full capacity, can do about 500 units a year.
    31:23
    That is probably the most efficient boutique operation that we know of in the world. So these guys have 15 months of a license. They could probably get it extended again if they're selling, I suppose.
    31:42
    I'm amazed it was extended in the first place. How are they going to output? I think it's going to be more like, who was it? Team Pinball and Mafia. I mean, that's kind of like the bit. It's not going to be like spooky, is it? It's not going to be like spooky. So what are they going to do? They're going to just do them one by one, and CoinTaker is going to keep chucking them up there on the website for 12-5? For 12-5. How long? Well, this can work for the short term. I think that – I mean I actually think they would be able to build them and sell them in really, really slow batches. Oh, yeah. I could – yeah. And okay, but how long are these friends and family going to – I mean assuming that they're – how long is the assembly line going to work if it's unpaid? Not long unless it's just Barry. And how long is he going to work without a salary? I don't think he will at all. Is he going to be drawing pay out of these loans? I would assume so. Like he did out of the piggy bank that he had from the pre-order money. I'm almost positive that's what he'll do. He might even be legally required to in the Netherlands. That was one of the arguments I remember hearing is that they had to draw salaries. Of course, they could have invested the money back in. But let's not focus on such things. That's not our place.
    33:02
    Or he's got to hire line workers. How long can he keep them employed? I don't think that he can get the output up. I don't think that he's got no economy of scale. and he has no experienced workforce in the entire continent. Who's the closest trained people? They're in England. That's the closest he's got. The people who used to work for Highway or worked for Team Pinball.
    33:26
    No, he does not have an option there. He's not going to be able to entice them away with his non-money.
    33:36
    Come on. It's a really good idea, and I really like this idea, So please come work for me. So here's the thing. Let's say it's 12-5. It's not going to be 12-5 of profit every single time because he doesn't even have enough parts. So how many of these does he have to move before he can satisfy one early achiever? Three? Four? More? I would assume probably. I can't get much higher in my voice?
    34:02
    Honestly, here's the thing. If he could put together, I don't think he can move enough to start satisfying early achievers depending upon how he's going to pay back those loans and pay for workers and stuff. At 12-5, I don't know that he can pull back enough to make it worthwhile.
    34:22
    You figure, I mean, if it's just him assembling machines, what do you think? Three a month? Oh, if he was alone, I mean, I guess. Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, I was never entirely clear if J-Pop, when he was with American Pinball, had to do the entire builds himself. I thought he had. I don't know how long it took him. And he built, what, like 20? Right. But we don't have a time frame on it. No, we don't. But, yeah, I don't know. Here's the thing. And I know, I haven't, I don't even have to go look. I know there are people who are so enraptured over the moon about this happening. They're so happy that everything is going great and everything's back on. And this is the greatest news that's ever happened on Pennside and places that this is so good. And this is proof that God is in his heaven and all is right with the world. And it's sad. It's just sad.
    35:26
    Yeah, I mean, there are other factors that come up in my mind as well with a strategy, especially a slow burn strategy like this. Let's say you can keep getting on wait lists. At some point, people are going to quit wanting this old game for $12,500. At some point, it's not going to be about we think this company is going to fail and we speculated and bought games at $12,500 and then tried to flip them for $30,000 on eBay, which is what we've seen happen so far. It will reach a point where it's like, okay, maybe the early achievers never get their games. I don't think they will. And he'll just keep selling games at $12,500 to fund himself. But at some stage, it's not worth $12,500 anymore to anyone because for $12,500, you can get just about anything new. Yeah. Way better. Yeah, better game, basically. No, there is no – I honestly do not think any of their early adopters or whatever their special name they played for themselves ever get made whole. No. I don't think any of them. Even though it would have been better before the ARRA decision, my non-legal, because I'm not a lawyer, not a legal opinion, but my suggestion would be to seek counsel and consider forcing some sort of recompensation if you've already bought your game and you still don't have it. While he still has assets. Yeah. This company now has assets. They got bailed out. Got bailed out by friends and family. So there are resources there. Maybe it's all in parts and stock, but maybe there's still, because he still needs other parts, there may be some cash. So I would want to litigate and try and get pennies on the dollar and just accept that you cannot win. There's no winning here. No. Pennies on the dollar would be a victory. It's an unfortunate victory. It's a pyrrhic victory, but it is still a victory. At this point, their only realistic option to get anything is simply to break him. Literally, the best they can hope for is revenge at this point. That's a good point. I don't think that it's a nice way to say it. I think realistically, destroying what is left of this company is the best that those early investor people can do. I do agree in the sense that I'm concerned that Barry still seems to think that he deserves to be in business. Does he? That bothers him. No, he does not. I'm willing to say that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Does he really think that? Or is that what the spend to keep people dumping money into him requires?
    38:18
    I guess we'll see if any games get built. Or this gets drawn out with what we're still, in two weeks we'll hear, what we're still trying to find a location, oh, we're still trying to order certain parts. In theory, does he not have enough parts to build at least a few of every, let me do that. I don't know if he has zero of any part. So in my mind, you best see another Big Lebowski bill within a month. At best. Otherwise, I would seriously question whether or not he has any intention to do any of it. Otherwise, all that happened was he got a bailout. He didn't aura anything anymore. I mean, he could always just try and sell the parts for people who want to repair their existing Big Lebowskis and then use that money to... Change his name and... Pay himself. to a non-extradition country. So anyway, that's why... With no legal ties? I think you just need to formally eliminate the company. I personally think that he does believe that he still has a company. And I don't think it's healthy.
    39:19
    I think he's already proven that he can't run a business and thus does not deserve to. Oh, I'm sure he's still... I'm sure he is delusional enough to believe that there is still an option forward for him to become some giant pinball manufacturer. I mean, they're still talking about moving on to a new title. I mean, this is just like ridiculous. At some point, it would just, even if you still wanted to build pinball machines, it would be better to end this and start a new company. Right. Like what we thought Pinball Brothers was going to do in the wake of Highway. That would make more sense than this approach. I mean, this is full on, why hasn't someone stepped up and told the emperor that he's naked?
    39:59
    Yeah. I can't believe that anybody gave him money to try and continue this. He's got a lot of friends, a lot of friends who still believe in him.
    40:07
    Wow. You just got to sync to Read and Pinside, Tony, and you'll see it. Wow. It's a lot fewer than it used to be, but there are a lot who still believe in him. So that brings up the question, are there early adopters who are spending more money to prop him up?
    40:29
    Maybe. I don't know if any of the investors are early adopters that have not yet received a game, but I know there were early adopters that if they had been given right of first refusal to pay 12-5 on top of their 8-5, they'd have done it. Why? So that they could at least have a game and then they feel like they won.
    40:49
    They feel like they got what they wanted. It's their win. It's like, I think that might be even more delusional than Barry. Kind of, but based off of at least the early action, if they bought the game for $12.5, they might have been able to flip it for $12.5 plus $8.5. And maybe save, you know, broke even.
    41:09
    Maybe. You hope to maybe have a chance to break even. I mean, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it because I don't... To be fair... I'm not speculating. Neither of us would have pre-ordered. I barely can bring myself to pre-order a video game at this point.
    41:23
    Yeah, it's... I can't imagine pre-ordering a pen and paper machine. We're not the right people to really postulate on high-dollar collector philosophies and stuff.
    41:34
    I don't know. And it was a different time back then. But they're still there. Well, yeah, but now they're in. It's like they threw in thousands of dollars. What's a few thousand more, as the argument goes, from people who have a few thousand more to throw? I mean, you hear it all the time in all sorts of things in pinball. What's another? You already paid $8,000. Why not buy a $500 topper? Yeah. Why not buy a $400 worth of color DMD and $250 Invisiglass? And next thing you know, you're up to a System 11 in parts in bling. And to me, it's like, no, that's another game. So why not enjoy another game But just like there are people that they can bear to see rippling in their clearcoats and there are other people that will play anything that playable player grade and they don care
    42:29
    Which is an excellent transition to clearcoat issues. Apparently this is a thing now. I've been ignoring this thread on Pinside, and I finally went and started reading it a couple days ago. I thought you said there was no drama. This is not drama. This is clear coat. Man. Okay. This is clear coat. Let's see. This is clear coat. Because we don't care about clear coat. I'm going to have to look up the web dictionary for drama here. No.
    42:57
    So here's the thing. Here's what's going on, Tony. You'll like it from a science standpoint. Because you're really into chemistry and science.
    43:08
    So there have been a lot of complaints, particularly around Jersey Jack pinball games. specifically the Pirates of the Caribbean game and the Willy Wonka game that's on the line now, with issues about the clear coat. It seems to come in two major forms. One is people are looking and are very concerned about what they refer to as rippling, where often around where posts are mounted, you can actually see the clear pushed up like a balloon. when you push on one end and the balloon bulges you see a little ripple in the clear around posts and also that sometimes where that rippling happens around posts again chunks coming off art coming off with it which kind of reminds me of an issue that came up with a number of the total nuclear annihilations which I've spoken on before because I have a very late run TNA and you can tell eventually people figured out that the ones that were at risk and the ones that weren't, the big difference was on the later runs, they quit printing art where those posts were. This is bare wood. Yeah. And that apparently alleviated the problem. This is reported on some Stern play fields as well. I know Beatles has been cited. So it's not even the, like, it's not, say, Jurassic Park. Maybe some Jurassic Parks were impacted. I want to think Iron Maidens have been listed as impacted, Guardians of the Galaxy, but most of the concern has been about Jersey Jack. There's a suspicion that it's an issue with the playfield supplier, which Merco is the supplier for, I believe, all of the JJP playfields. And there's a lot of talk about that it may have to do with the clear coat formulation, that this isn't a solvent-based clear coat, it's a water-based clear they're less toxic and but the curing process is different the mixing process is probably different um so maybe that's not working out here's why this could be drama this is just science here's where this is where you might think that maybe it would be dramatic unlike stern which well sometimes you remember the playfield ghosting issue on ghost correct in particular with the clear separating from the inserts and if you had enough of it they would send you populated play fields and you you could do a play field swap jersey jack's approach has been to send washer kit oh this is like uh the preventative kit that spooky did right it's where you put little washers under the high stress areas and i have that kit even though my they told me my game should be fine they would give the kit to anyone right spooky would so there's that kit but it doesn't you know it doesn't fix the rippling or anything it covers it up does it prevent it from getting worse i don't know i haven't looked into it enough to know that if you want if there's bad if there's chipping if the rippling severe whatever you might go okay well what are the conditions on a replacement play field apparently the condition of the replacement playfield is, you will pay Jersey Jack $550 and buy a playfield. Oh, but it's unpopulated. Which means that you'd have to move all of the mechanisms on the top over and all of the stuff underneath over. It's not plug-in play like the Stern ones are. You'd have to actually repopulate the entire playfield. You'd have to assemble the playfield. That's what an unpopulated playfield is. It's unassembled. It's got the inserts in it. that's it. So basically you'd get to go and take your $10,000 machine and pretend that you're Dutch pinball in your basement as opposed to his basement to rebuild your own machine. Yeah, kind of. So how's the drama blow up on this one bed or people been not having an issue with it? Cause the Stern stuff was to the point I recall of people calling for boycotts of Stern. it's because it's my suspicion because as you know people are very loyal to JJ that's a case true there has been a reluctance to call for boycotts but given the amounts of money being spent there have been people that have reported that have even cancelled their CE orders because the CEs haven't come out yet. Right. And so there have been people that have been pulling back on... We haven't even seen CEs yet. And we'll talk on that as our final segment. But yes, people have been complaining. People have been contacting distributors.
    48:06
    The other issue here is it was never entirely clear what percentage of the playfields with Stern were ghosting. And there's a lot of belief that Stern uses multiple playfield manufacturers and the problem may have been specific to one of them. Right. The problems coming up with the JJP games on Pirates and Wonka are widespread. It's not all of them, but it's widespread. A lot of people have been reporting, so it's a very high volume.
    48:34
    So, yeah, there have been people saying that they're not going to buy, but I've also seen people say that they're really worried about it, and so I guess what they have to do, what they've said they guess they have to do, is they'll just order a $550 playfield to keep as a backup. people who have gotten the replacements though here's the thing, bot replacements have reported that they can push their fingernail on the playfield and ripple the clear on the replacement field that they paid $550 yes, so that they're not cured and some have said, I think with pirates cases, have set playfields aside, not mounted anything so no stress on them, check the clear it's not getting hard which to me would suggest that something in the process was messed up it's not a question that you need more time or if it is it must need a lot more time I don't know the science of clear codes regardless they're not ready to go and maybe they'll never be ready if there's not enough hardener in it and the clear will never get hard it'll always ripple would be my thought I know there are some things out there that to cure correctly, they require extended periods of times in high UV environments. Yes, and my understanding is the water-based clears tend to require a lot of UV to help cure them properly.
    50:02
    But that also thickness makes a big difference in that if you have a thick layer of clear, a clear coat that might on the can say that it's dry within 48 hours and you should be able to do things on the surface within a week could take months. maybe put a lot on. That was one of the things that a lot of people felt was when they were always talking about a lot of dimpling on stern games. Right. Like that orange peel look you get a lot. A lot of people I know have indicated that they believe that that is because the clear is thicker now. That's what the dimpling is, is the clear. And they used to use a lot thinner clear. And then you didn't have that problem. But there's been a desire to put more clear on because then the art's, you know, you'd have to scratch to more clear before you could damage the art. Right. So, see, it's kind of the rub there. I mean, orange-peely dimpling is aesthetically displeasing, doesn't chip away. I don't think it's any more vulnerable. Right. I've never, I mean, my Star Trek pretty quickly looked like the moon with its clear.
    51:08
    But, yeah, so this is... I don't know. It's just one of those things. Stern had their issue, and there were continuous calls to boycott, and talks about how Stern had fallen and how terrible Stern was. And then J.J.P. has issues that sound like they're even worse than Stern ever had. And it's like, it's okay, guys. It's okay.
    51:35
    Well, there are a number of people that are mad. Jack still loves us. And there's some people that don't blame Jack, and they think Jack doesn't have control of the company anymore. And the investors are putting their foot down and saying, there's not good business sense to keep giving away play fields. We can't do it.
    51:51
    Maybe they're not in the financial position to do it. Right. Entirely possible. And it's entirely possible that they just know their audience well enough to know that they can do anything they want and their audience is still going to be there. Yeah, it's an interesting point. And I mean, one of the issues I think that's noteworthy is, I mean, you think about it, where Wonka, as we've noted, fun game. Oh, it's a great game. From JJP's perspective, probably one of their better themes, probably one of their better hit games since Wizard of Oz. Yeah. And, I mean, so you've got this issue complicating things. And then, you know, wasn't it just their luck that then Stern just had to go and release Jurassic Park, which is more popular in, like, every single way. The reviews on Jurassic Park I've been seeing are nuts. So I have wondered, for those that aren't the fanboys, but were interested in Wonka because it was pretty, you know, sparkly, and a good shooter. and then they see Elwynn's game come out and it's cheaper and its reviews are better if people have been canceling. It's entirely possible. And let's go ahead and transition from the clear to our last news topic, which is also on JJP and it's regarding the Wonka Collector's Edition. We still haven't seen it. I have a thought on that. What's your thought? All I was going to say is it's been like, how long has it been since the announcement of Wonka? Like five months? And the game's first hit just right at the end of June. Yeah. we're getting shipped out. So I'm like, I don't know. By now, on a stern cycle, we'd be in the premiums, which is the last of the, you know, they do pro, LE, premium. Right. And here we are. And it's not that the CE, I mean, I'm not going to, I would never buy a CE. So it's not that I'm in on a CE or that concern about when they ship them. They haven't even shown what's the difference, what you get with the collector's edition. Because this is, this is the real LE for them. Their LE is limited to 5,000. That's a meaningless number. This is the one for the true exclusivity. And there were indications that the play field was going to look different artistically, but we haven't seen that. No, I think that's what it is. I think the entire thing with the CD, the CE, I think it's going to have an entirely different art package and they can't get it approved. Really? You think like changing the cabinet and stuff as well? I think so. I think they need to. I think they need to do something other than just copy and paste Wonka from the 40th edition anniversary edition DVD all over the dang thing. Well, but that worked for the LEs and the SEs. I'm sure it worked for the LEs and the SEs. And you know what? They look like crap. Some people love the art. I understand. Some people can love anything. Obviously, some people still love Dutch pinball enough to give them money, even though it's just ripping holes in their guts. I guess that's true. But it doesn't matter. The standard looks terrible. It shoots wonderfully. It is a fun, fun game to play. I really enjoyed playing it. And like I said in our last episode, once I get enough plays under it to really get a feel, it would not surprise me if it becomes my favorite JJP game. But that doesn't change the fact the art's terrible. The art on their LE Premium version... It's not much different. ...isn't much different. You know, there's some differences on the cabinet art and this and that, but it doesn't matter because Wonka everywhere is the exact same picture of Wonka. You have an interesting theory because we saw the CE version of the Pirates play field art very early. Yeah. Because a lot of people loved it because it was the one that didn't have Johnny Depp's face on it. Yeah, no, it looked good. I mean, of the Pirate games, the CE of the Pirate games was the best looking of the Pirate games. I wonder if there's a delay on some of the parts, because honestly, I'm at the point where I've suspected the Wonka CE is going to be the L-E-S-E play field, but with like glitter in it. It's entirely possible. But that the art assets will be the same. That they'll just do what they did with the cabinets and add another layer.
    56:05
    Because the cabinets are the same, it's just you could tell they deleted Photoshop layers to make the lower tier versions worse. Then why wouldn't they have released it already?
    56:16
    I don't know. Here's the other option, coming back. Are they in the position where they couldn't afford to put the CE together until they sold some of the standards? I mean, I don't know, because it's almost impossible to get a good financial read on JJP. And I don't really have good JJP sources. What few sources I have have told me that that company has lost money every single year it's existed. That's all I've heard. Right. So, but my honors. Pirates was a complete bust. Yes. And, but if they were to re-release it, they would probably sell more. But the rumor mill is not, I've been thinking that they would eventually black pearl it. I still, I still want to say I think so, but almost every source I have on it says that they're not going to revisit Pirates. the BOM is a pain to assemble and everything. But my understanding also is that Wonka has been selling well, that it has been doing well. It doesn't surprise me. So they should have income coming in from that. Yeah. I'm sure that they, it was very clear that they had to pull the plug on Pirates far earlier than they had anticipated, but they got Wonka out quick. Right. They got it out on time. Which is amazing for them. Maybe. I mean, your argument about that the art couldn't get approved it makes the most sense that's that's why it makes the most sense i think i think they put together a package and the package didn't get approved and they had to start from scratch that's a severe difference of the i mean i'm trying to think like in my mind worse comes to worse don't you just start making it more and more like the other package and then just doing little differences like well that would be the way to do it unless the approval process was just like, this is completely unacceptable. Hmm. Okay. I don't know. I don't know. Well, hopefully we'll see it soon. So we know. I mean, I'd love to see it. The game shoots so well, I would love to see this game with an art package that wasn't terrible.
    58:19
    Speaking of shooting well, let's move out, just before we go to video games, and let's play a game of 20 questions. Oh, goody! I say shoot well because you did very well last time. I did do very well last time. So for those that don't know, this is where Tony will ask a series of yes or no questions of me. It'll be about a flipper pinball machine that he has played at least a game on. And I will respond to those questions with yeses and nos. As of question 16, he gets to start using Internet resources to help hone in the questioning more. And the goal is to get the game guessed by question 20.
    58:53
    Make sense? Yes, it makes sense, everyone. Yay! Okay, Tony, so whenever you're ready, you can ask your first question. Is it from 1980 or newer? Yes. That's such a good question. I know. You started with last time. You're like, I know.
    59:11
    You're like Han going to the carbonite. Han, you tell good questions. I know. Because last time I was like, wow, that just cuts like so much out. It makes it so much easier. Instead of playing the solid state EM game. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so it's newer than 1980. Yes. Is it newer than 1992?
    59:33
    Yes. Is it newer than 2000? No. Hmm. So we're looking at 92 to 2000, which means... Hardly any games from then. There's only like four games in that time span, which means it's none of the games I played at Pizza West, Because pretty much all I played at Pizza West last time was Guardians of the Galaxy and Firepower And I'd have to just limit it to games you played last at Pizza West, huh? Right, well no, no, I'm just saying I'm just saying, well the previous one was the game I played at Pizza West Oh yes, that's right 403, so, because I played So you're suspecting I didn't go the Pizza West route Right Unless it is a game that you didn't play recently at Pizza West but was at Pizza West. But you have, well. Oh, yeah. We could get crazy at this point. No, this is too, we're getting meta here. This is just too. No, don't do it. We're just getting too inside of the, burying your own head.
    60:35
    Is it newer than a 95? Yes. Okay, now that cuts it down a fair amount. Is it a Data East? No. That was question five. No.
    60:50
    Yes, it was. I'm counting. I have hash marks. Is it a valley? No. Oh. Not down east, not valley. Is it the dark night? No. I'm not sure what year that came out.
    61:04
    It might have been after 2000. It would have had to have been, actually, now that I think about it. Yeah, I'm sure it would be. But I don't know what year. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really know. See I need to start See instead of just going with what it grabs into my head I need to start thinking more about this Because right after I asked Wait a minute That was way more than 2000 You're just used to Batman being the right answer Batman's just the right answer Batman I'm Batman Swear to me Know what year I came out Swear to the drugs See, that would be a fun Batman read.
    61:51
    Is it a Sega? No. 2008 was the Batman Dark Knight. Interesting. Is it a Capcom? No. Hmm. Newer than 95.
    62:06
    Younger than 2000. and is in a Valley, Davit, East, Sega, or Capcom. Hmm. Is it Harley Davidson? No.
    62:19
    That's question 10. I just could not get that game out of my head. I think that was... That's not a bad guess.
    62:27
    That was 97? 98? 2000? I'm terrible. 99. I'm pretty sure. Well the problem is that one had that re-release also Right and that might have come out in 2000 I'm not quite sure when The re-release did Right well and again I guess Because Harley was a Sega But it was also made by Stern But I don't know when the Which was which I assume it was all around the same time Eldorado was for Milestar and Premiere Right so That was 10 Yes sir You still get to keep guessing Is it 97 or newer Yes 98 No 99 No So it is 97 Should have gone with my initial instinct of just saying 97 Hmm Let's see 97 Trying to remember Does it have more than two flippers Yes That question 15 so you may now use resources Okay.
    63:42
    Is it Sir Voltaire? No. Is that the NBA Fastbrick? No. Then we might have a question problem here. Yes, you do. You've made an assumption that was not accurate. The assumption that has been accurate in the past No, I think you're thinking down the wrong route At some point you have misinterpreted one of your questions Apparently And it has led you to the wrong place It may be helpful to revisit your questions if you've been to one of them Yeah, because I asked if it was a bally and you said no That's correct, it is not a bally Which made me get rid of the thought of all Williams games Because in the past, we've always done Bally Williams as a combined entity. In the case of when they are, there's a two-fold thing here. So I'm going to be helpful without having a question asked. First of all, if you ask Williams and it's a Bally or a Williams and Bally Williams, I count it. If you ask Bally and it's a Williams and a Bally Williams, I would not count it. However, that is not where your error is. Really? I'm going to give you another hint. Your error is in the time frame.
    64:58
    You made an assumption that was inaccurate. I made an assumption. So I asked if it was newer than 1997, and you said yes. That's correct. And I didn't ask if it was 2000 or newer. I asked if it was newer than 2000. That's correct.
    65:17
    Because on the other ones, I asked if it was that year or newer. Buggery, buggery, buggery. You're going to really hate yourself in a moment. I'm already mad because I'm almost positive I know what it is.
    65:34
    It's one of two options. It is. So you're guaranteed to get it before you're out. Is it Striker Extreme? Yes. The one that I used to guess first every time for like two months. Yes.
    65:47
    18th question. That's because, yeah, no, because normally I ask, Is it this year or newer? And I didn't say that. I even wrote that one question down because I thought that would come back and bite you. But immediately after, I thought it wasn't because then you said, okay, so it's 92 to 2000. And I thought, okay, no, he's kept himself in the range. But once you started going from the 97 and above, I realized your mistake. That's an interesting thing to bring up about the Bally thing because, yeah, with Williams, if you were to say Williams, it was a Bally. Right. Because it's still a Williams board. Right, and I normally ask Williams, but this time I said Bally. But in this case, that was a red herring. The answer was the obvious one, and now my compulsion to ask you this game has gone away, and I will never have to feel like I need to slip it in at some point. Yes. But I thought, you didn't start with it last time, so I think I can finally do it. I haven't started with it for a couple of times. Yeah, but I need a little breathing. I made note of it last time. Your favorite. So that is a Sega Stern White Star MPU, but it is a January 2000 Stern pinball game. Three flippers, I believe. That's why I had to check on that. I couldn't remember how many flippers it was because it didn't say in the write-up. I had to look at a photo.
    67:09
    And most of your other stuff was very date or manufacturer-oriented, So clearly well safe from, because it was actually the very first game designed by Stern Pinball. So it wasn't even designed in the Sega years. Right. So very clean. I said, I've learned to cut my things, especially the years, instead of the old electromechanical, blah, blah, blah. It was all really good until you ignored the year you left in your range. Yeah. That was the problem. And I got worried because I wanted you, once we got past question 10, I wanted you to know, I wanted you to feel which game it was.
    67:47
    Because I've been having to stare at it all day. I mean, because that's the thing. All day. The second the assumptions came up, I knew it. I knew that's what it was. And I like that. But my favorite part is I celebrate your struggle. You didn't fail. You got it. You celebrate my pain. Was because I saw the moment on your face. I wish the podcast could show your face. I saw the moment on your face where you realized that something on the interpretation was wrong.
    68:21
    But you leapt to it being a disagreement on how to interpret the manufacturers. And I was like, no, no. I know we're in complete alignment on the manufacturing on this. It was the year. The year that got you. Yeah. So that's 20 questions. Yeah.
    68:42
    Good job. Monkey butter. So what's been going on in video games, Tony? Not drama. Not at all. There is no drama in video games. Oh, good. Not a single bit of drama in video games. And then I don't have to look it up what it means. Definition number three from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. A state, situation, or series of events involving interesting or intense conflict of forces. There is no conflict.
    69:08
    There is no conflict. But it's interesting. Depending on your take on interesting. We've gotten used to, in the last year, year and a half, hearing announcements about Microsoft purchasing yet another developer. This isn't one of those days. No. Quite the opposite. Sony has actually purchased a developer. This is the first developer that Sony has purchased since 2016 and the first major developer since 2010.
    69:44
    They picked up Insomniac Games. That's a good acquisition. It's a very good acquisition. The Marvel's Spider-Man from Insomniac was probably the biggest PS4 hit in a long time. it was definitely the most popular Spider-Man game of all time.
    70:06
    And it did huge for them. They even released that special PS4 Spider-Man bundle. That's the bundle I bought, actually, when I picked up my PS4. I think the only games vying for it last year would have been Red Dead 2, which was obviously bigger, and God of War. were probably the only two titles, I think, that were probably big. Yeah, God of War probably outdid it. Yeah. Almost assuredly, but still. Yeah, but I mean, still, it was a very large thing. But they've also developed in the past, you know, Ratchet & Clank and Spyro. They're a well-storied company. Yeah, and they've done a number of exclusives with Sony, but not always. Not always. They did an exclusive with Microsoft. Sunset Overdrive was theirs. Yeah. So they have. And that game reviewed pretty well. I've not played it Well I've heard Spider-Man took some of the mechanical concepts And refined them So you've played the better version Right Spider-Man's mechanics for stuff was really good It was a very enjoyable game So there was Sony's step It's a good move for them Because I believe Microsoft had eclipsed them In quantity of studios And I believe this obviously helps with parody Plus this is a very this is a major studio. This is a pedigree studio. So it'll look really good for them. Right. Yeah, like their 2016 purchase. I don't even remember the name of the studio. They developed mobile games. Oh, well. So. Well, yeah, diversification. There's value in all studios.
    71:45
    Sure there is. Yeah, well, I still never understood the time when Microsoft took Rare and then turned them into the Kinect studio.
    71:53
    Especially with Rare's pedigree. That's insane. Well, I imagine there's been a lot of turnover of the staff, though. My next two things are more just light touches specifically for stuff that interests me because I'm the one picking them. Yeah, it's what you do. You pick.
    72:09
    Bandai Namco is creating a fighting game based upon the One Punch Man anime and manga series. and for those people who don't know this One Punch Man is basically a deconstruction of the kind of hero anime manga genre because the main character Saitama is a superhero who's pretty much invincible and he defeats everything with one punch and he's pretty much utterly bored because of it so of course the best thing for them to do is to create a fighting game based around a character who's so OP that he beats everybody in a single punch what's interesting to me about it is the mechanic they decided to go with this game has like for multiplayer mechanic it goes with the kind of um street fighter versus marvel triple hero beatdown style is how the multiplayer goes right uh but for the single player game what you're actually doing is you play as one of the other heroes in the superhero league conglomeration thing. And your whole purpose is to survive until Saitama shows up. And they will show you clips in the trailer they showed. And it shows, it's a spinning down timer showing Saitama running, trying to get to you. As you just try and fight and survive against something that's just utterly annihilating you. And then When Saitama shows up, it's like, okay, you can rest now, blah, blah, blah, blah. You get to see the big bad who's just destroyed. You go insane on him, and his health bar doesn't move. Then he punches it one time, and it vaporizes because that's the gimmick. Okay.
    73:56
    That's very different. Does that mean – I don't know. I'm curious about his execution because it sounds like if you can't beat it yourself, fighting almost is pointless, and it becomes a blocking game. That's what it is because from the actual descriptions of it, perfectly executed blocks and counters reduce the timer so he gets there faster. Oh. But most people in my experience don't like to block a lot in fighting games. That's for high-level fighting game players. That's like racing games and telling people where the brake is. But why? Why would I hit the brake? I don't even need that button. That's what the wall is for. I'm curious because if this is seen as it's going to be such a buried, important part of this game, if this is going to lead to the multiplayer section of this game just having a naturally higher level of that kind of play. Maybe. I don't know. We'll see. we'll see when this drops if this game gets popular enough to have the multiplayer version part of it bounce up into being on an Evo stage. I think everything ends up on one of the Evo stages. But I wonder if it can be interesting enough to bounce up onto a main stage. Maybe. Now that they're not giving various versions of Smash multiple. Yeah. They solved that this year and only gave the new game a spot I believe. Which is good. It was. Because Smash didn't deserve two places. Smash doesn't deserve two places on main stage. I personally don't think Smash deserves one spot on main stage. But Smash definitely doesn't deserve two places on main stage.
    75:42
    There was also a cinematic trailer released for the sequel to Kerbal Space Program. I've heard of Kerbal Space Program 2. Kerbal Space Program 2 is going to be coming out. The current target date is the end of March of 2020, which, let's be realistic with how times get pushed on video games anymore, means probably sometime in 2020. Okay. Now, what's interesting is the studio that developed Kerbal Space Program is not the studio developing Kerbal Space Program 2. Hmm. But several members of their staff have been sent over there to work as consultants. and they are actively working with the new development team to assist in the creation of it. All right. Their main goal is the creation team for KSP is going to continue just maintaining and updating KSP while they're assisting on Kerbal 2. So we'll see how that goes. I know it's a game I've sunk a fair amount of hours into. not lately, but when it was one of the few early access games I picked up and that I actually played a lot of.
    76:59
    Because I picked it up even before it was on Steam. I picked it up and played a lot of it. I'm just no good at orbital mechanics apparently.
    77:09
    When will it be exclusive to the Epic Games Store do you think? Never. Oh, okay. Never. They said they're not doing an exclusivity deal So I'm assuming Not at all They just need more money If only there was Slightly more money And then now To the completely non-drama Finish for video games No drama at all Ninja Blevins Left Twitch for Microsoft's Mixer He was one of the largest Twitch streamers. I don't think he was the largest, but he was definitely in the top 10 for sure. He was definitely the largest Fortnite streamer.
    78:00
    And apparently Microsoft offered him enough money for him to jump ship. Wow. Twitch took it really well. As they should. Because they've got plenty of other huge streamers. Right, exactly. So let me guess, they just promoted Tim the Tapman? Yeah, yeah. Well, that's the thing is they use Ninja's channel to run promotions. Instead of leaving it as showing this offline and just down like they do normally when somebody's not streaming, even if they leave the platform, if they don't delete it, the channel's still there. They just don't have new content. It's just kind of defunct. Instead of doing that, they instead used it to his channel to promote other channels and show other people streaming or, you know, porn because they used it to show porn at one point. That's an unusual choice. I thought Twitch community guidelines even said that male streamers couldn't stream with shirts off, that it was that stringent. It is that stringent, but apparently it took them hours and hours and hours to respond to the fact that there was literal hardcore porn being shown on Ninja's channel. Now, the porn issue is an issue that Twitch has overall. Because if you scroll far enough down in pretty much any gaming category, towards the bottom, when you start getting down to some of the lower seen places, you'll start seeing people just straight up streaming Pornhub. and that for some reason doesn't get banned until sometimes up to a day or two days even of it going where high level popular streamers that get enough views and the thing is there's been some of these porn streams that have not been banned and they've had 15,000 people watching them and they're still not banned for hours.
    79:55
    But, you know, they'll ban a male streamer for taking their shirt off, or they'll ban, you know, there was recently a Korean streamer who got banned for two days because they were doing a dancing thing and they weren't wearing enough clothes, apparently. Hmm. But, straight up porn's cool.
    80:17
    Hmm. Well, that's interesting. Have they corrected this issue? With ninjas, they have put it back to a defunct stream. They're not showing anything there. And they have actively apologized and are investigating how it happened. Which translates to, oops, we're sorry that you felt offended.
    80:42
    But, I mean, the thing is, he had huge numbers of viewers. Huge numbers of viewers. Yeah. And that's a lot of money for Twitch. And he walked away. Yeah, but surely a lot of them didn't jump ship.
    80:58
    Apparently, from what I've seen and read, on Mixer, he's averaging about 30% lower than he was on Twitch. Okay, so he had a pretty high uptick. So, yeah. Well, it's easy enough for the... This is not like Epic Game Store. It's easy enough to be able to go to both sites and watch. I haven't used Mixer in quite a while. I've heard a couple of things that people like about it are it allows streaming in 4K, which Twitch does not. Right. And there's less of a delay between the chat and... Correct. And I don't know why. I guess the encoding's different.
    81:41
    Let's see. Ninja's Twitch page had 14.7 million followers. That's almost as many as eclectic underscore gamers. Right, I know. And he had an average channel, or his total channel views was 479 million. Hmm. So, yeah. It is definitely an interesting take. We haven't done anything on Mixer. I've never really done anything on Mixer. I've watched some stuff. We could switch and stream pinball And then win the Twippy for best mixer streamer When are they going to add that Twippy? Yeah When they need to do that I wonder if anyone does stream pinball on mixer I don't know It'd be the best chance to Outstream Deadflip on a platform By being on a different platform Yes We beat you Jack We beat you at your own game You could do that even if you started your own platform. You could pull the numbers. Let's see.
    82:52
    Looking at running between 50 and 140,000 viewers is what Ninja has been pulling in late July. He dipped from 40,000 to 131,000 viewers In late July That's a lot of people Yep Well, I guess we reached the end of our episode We've reached the end There's only just a little bit of drama None of it was major All of it was in video games There was no drama in pinball apparently Nope No I already did that bit You did I don't want to do that bit again Well, if people want to reach out about how we should cover more drama instead of this no drama style episode, you can always email us at eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com or you can reach out to us at facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast As we've said, we're available on Twitch and Instagram and Twitter as eclectic underscore gamers. And we'll probably be back in two weeks and a day will be my guess because of the Saturday thing. That would be the guess. I don't think I've got anything going again. I don't think I have an issue like this coming up again until like... We don't even tell people ahead of time about differences between a Saturday and a Sunday because it happens every... It happens every quarter to half a year or so. I think we do it. But anyway... Our next podcast is on the 8th. Yeah.
    84:26
    Ooh, we might have one the week after though. If I do go to Chicago, I'll be leaving that Sunday. So... We might have to do that one early. 6am Sunday stream well I'm Dennis I'm Tony and goodbye everybody