All right. So if you're new to this chat, which a few of you are, this is still a pretty kind of new initiative for us. It's a pretty casual thing. Think of it like a pinball conference call, but, you know, way more fun. Usually we spend about 45 minutes kind of talking about the pinball news of the week and kind of whatever else folks want to discuss. Sometimes, like this week, we'll have a guest on the chat about more specific topics. and you can feel free to participate, ask questions, you know, whatever makes it a more enjoyable experience for you. And so with that said, we'll get started. Today we're pretty excited to have Don Garrison from Don's Pinball Podcast in the chat. I'm sure most of you are familiar with him. He doesn't need any introduction. and we thought it would be kind of fun to have a bit of a meta discussion about creating content in pinball and building relationships with people in the industry. So with that, Don, Rob, do you have anything you want to say off the bat? No, welcome. Great to have you, Don. Yeah. Hi, everybody. How you doing? Great. Love recording. If you haven't listened to me yet, please get over there. I'm 30 listens away from 100,000 total, so that would be kind of cool. Oof. Right? That's awesome. You'll probably hit that this year then. I'll probably hit that, like, tomorrow. Probably within, like, a day or two. So you started your podcast in January of 23? January 22. Wait, 23, yeah. 22. Okay. So coming up on two years now. On two years, yeah. Yeah, man, wild. no idea what I was doing you know just wanted to kind of join and put something else out there and see what happened um I was kicking around ideas uh with a friend of mine he wanted to do a roller coaster podcast and I'm like oh yeah that would be kind of cool I kind of wanted to do a medical one and I figured well let me just let me just see if I can let me just put out a pinball one and see how it goes then I can learn the process of whatever and then this has been like so all-consuming and like so much fun that I haven't even got to those other projects well you've done you've done what like 162 episodes under don's pinball podcast you've got um uh the we are pinball i don't know how many episodes you are in into that and i think you've done some other things too so like you're just like turning out content like crazy yeah it's fun like every couple days like i've got like i gotta get something out you know there's something new to talk about you know there hasn't been a break in news since i started or a break in rumors or a break in some hot take. So was this the first podcast that you've done, or have you tried other things in the past? You mentioned like coasters and medical stuff. Yeah, so back in the day, before YouTube was as accessible as it is, we used to go to theme parks, and we would record video, on-ride footage of rides, interviews, just park general stuff. We would edit it all together, put that on DVDs and VHS tapes, and mail it out to other fans of the industry, right? You know, because, like, with coaster people, we try to go to, like, all the theme parks, but sometimes it's not feasible. So if someone's been to a park and has shot footage, like, you want to see what's there or, like, maybe a ride that's defunct now or something. You want to see that POV. And so we would just, like, share it online, and then once YouTube blew up, we started sharing there. So, yeah, I had a couple full-length DVDs I put out, and then I decided as a hobby to start going to school more and then kind of took a 10-year hiatus doing that and then getting back into content creation. That's awesome. Which the world's totally different now from when I was shooting on a high-end video. I sort of like, as someone who did one of my first jobs was editing videos at the local cable access TV station, so doing a lot of VHS tape editing. So I would love to see one of your VHS tapes one day. It would be fun. I don't know. I would love to put them up on YouTube because, like, there's funny stuff in there. You know, it was almost like, you know, Coaster Jackass. But we used music, right, just whatever was popular at the time to edit with. And so there's no way I could put it on YouTube without just getting instantly muted. So, like, I have to find some kind of way to get this media out there where people can watch it. Like, you know, like is BitTorrent still a thing? Can I just put it on that? Maybe. Yeah, yeah. Real quick question Don Were you like How long were you into pinball Or did you have machines before you decided to do the podcast Did they come at the same time Or had you been collecting for a little while already Oh so no I always liked pinball But I was very much a casual Like I couldn't name a designer And I could probably rattle off some companies But that's it you know But I would divide my time between Mortal Kombat And Street Fighter and pinball Whenever I'd go to the FEC right And then I always kind of wanted to have a game But never thought it was possible It's like I wasn't on silver spoons or whatever And then After I got out of university and all that And finally got back into a stable job COVID hit and it was like Man, I got all these arcade one-ups now That I can get at Walmart, it'd be cool to get a pinball machine And then I found a place In Eau Claire, a dealer that has a Free play arcade, he sells a lot of games And I decided just to go up there One day and see what they had and how much these things cost and we ended up getting a batman dark knight isn't it isn't it funny how quickly you get immersed in it i had a guy come by the other day and he's like what's the story with this circus full of terror machine i'm like oh my god like i know way too much about this game like all the things about it it's funny how like you just get immersed in it you know yeah so do you still have the black knight no no um so when i bought it the guy's like look play it And, you know, when you're done with it, you can trade it in for credit and then get something else. And I'm like, that sounds amazing. And so, you know, I'd follow him on his Facebook page. And then I was kind of done with Dark Knight. And then it was right around the time Guns N' Roses came out. And I saw, like, the bass guitar wire for him. And I'm like, that's amazing. And then he's like, I got one, new in box. And so we traded. And that was my second game, my first new in box. Very cool. Very cool. To step it up from Dark Knight to Guns N' Roses L.E., imagine back before everybody played it and it was just multiball heavy and we hated it. Those light shows and those songs, that was something super cool, man. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I still show that game to people who aren't into pinball. They're just like, I had no idea pinball did this. And I think the only thing you can say about the game is that there's just so many available that on the market the price is so low, but it's not low because it's necessarily a bad game or not a great presentation or probably like the best light show and pinball and the best music. It's just that you can get them anywhere. They're just not commanding a high price. Yeah, I agree. For the right size collection, it's definitely worth rotating in one way or another. So with all of the content that you create, how do you get inspiration for all of it? Are you just sort of like always looking for things that could be podcast content, like just trawling Pinside and the community groups and all the other content that's out there? It's like I just kind of keep a running list of things that are going on in my head. It's like one of those dump buckets at the water park, right? It's just always sitting there slowly filling. And as soon as it's full, it's like dump, you know. So if something breaks and I can easily talk about it for a half hour, I'll just run over, you know, fire up the mixer and just start recording. And it's like super easy. Other times it's like I've been seven days. I haven't put out anything and I'm like, God, I'm terrible. There's nothing to talk about. I don't want to just hit record and ramble. But then sometimes that ends up being like the best shows. Like people love those ones where I didn't have a plan. I just, I talked like the last one I did, I just kind of talked about the market and, and you know where I can foresee things going with the price increase and everything. And I'm like, God, I hope people like this and doesn't just seem like I'm phoning it in. And then people are like, this one was great, man. What are you talking about? Nice. So, like, that's wild. And, you know, when I'm not recording this or something, I'm in my 3D lab printing stuff or I'm prototyping the game I'm making or I'm just playing TCM. Awesome. Do you ever get burned out on pinball or sort of the content production grind? I mean, you mentioned feeling, I guess, some guilt about going seven days without producing new content. And so, like, that feels pretty extreme, right? Yeah, and I don't think it's the pinball stuff specifically, but when, like, life starts stacking up, you know, like if I'm working stretches of days without any time off and there's, you know, deadlines coming up of things I have to do and it just becomes all too much and it's like, you know, if I'm not in a good head space, I can't record good stuff. So it's like I'll just take, you know, a break. So, yeah, like burnout's real. But, you know, I don't sit down and hit record if I'm feeling like I'm, you know, obligated, right? Cause that's no fun. Um, so usually, you know, I'll just, I'll be in a good mood and it's like, yeah, let's go do a show. Like I want to do it. This is, this will be super fun, you know? It's awesome. Um, how would you say, uh, the, the podcast has evolved from when you first started? Like have, has it surprised, has that journey sort of like surprised you? Oh, it's amazing. I mean, I started just, you know, screaming out into the void. Like, no idea if anybody would ever listen to it, right? I was just listening to other people's podcasts, and it's like I wanted to try something, too. And I figured I had a new perspective, because I wasn't somebody that had been in the hobby deep for a decade or more, you know, and knew everybody. I was just like, here's my fresh take. There's other people that are like me, too, that are just trying to learn about all this stuff. So I thought maybe that would help, or it would be something people would dig. And yeah, it turns out it was. And, you know, I used to follow coasters and stuff and we know roller coaster manufacturers and the companies and who's building the rides and who owns the parks and all this business but it's hard to get invites to media events for rides and things you have to like, I've been schlumming up with somebody for five years to get that invite and then you kind of lord it over everybody else. Pinball is so accessible you just walk up and be like, oh hey Steve Ritchie, what's up dude? Hey, you made one of my first games, I loved it. Or Black Knight's amazing, it's like oh thanks you know, or hey Borg, what's going on, you know. I found out about Spooky Pinball when I found out there was a Rick and Morty game, and I was like, oh, man, that's so cool. These guys are in Wisconsin. And it's like now, like, my wife is friends with them. Cool. It's like in other fan hobbies, like, it doesn't happen like that. Yeah, it's really interesting, and I guess we can skip ahead a little bit to, like, the building industry relationships part of the conversation because I'm kind of interested in that too. Like on the one hand, like pinball is super accessible, but I think it does still sort of take work to build relationships and trust with people in the industry so that you can have yourself kind of be in the position that you're in to create the kind of content that you do, be that sort of interviews or factory tours or whatever. so I'm sort of wondering how you're sort of going about and cultivating those relationships so that they're sort of productive and fruitful for everyone. It's all just showing up and being there when I kick this thing off like three months later I'm like I want to go to a pinball show now that I'm actually creating stuff so I had some t-shirts printed up, I made some prize packages and I went to Louisville to this small pinball show. And, you know, I was like, nobody's listening to me right now. So I did a show where if you saw me and you, you told me the password whitewater, you got like a free t-shirt and a bag and a couple of stickers. And I brought four of them and I gave three of them away And that like blew my mind But like that show is where you know I hung out with Spooky when Scooby was launching and kept talking and hanging out with them I met the Flippin Out crew and you know the pinball show folks and all that Then, you know, I met them there at that show. Then when I went to the next show, it's like I already knew people. So I was seeing them again and then they're introducing me to their friends. And then just by just being there, you know, when there was a game to launch, it's like, oh, hey, you know, Don's here. We could use him. Let's pick this guy. Let's pick this guy and see if we can get him in, you know. American Pinball reached out and they're like, we have a new game that's launching in a couple weeks. Can you come by? And I'm like, well, yeah. I'm three hours from Chicago. That's no big deal. And the same thing now with Jersey Jack and Stern. Now the companies are catching on that this is a good way to spread the word and goodwill about their games, which is awesome because that's how it should be. And I love playing new stuff, so that's fun for me. But just going to these shows and showing up at IAPA and wandering the show floor and talking to people, they keep seeing your face and then you get invited to stuff. do you do you feel like that it's it's something that you're you're kind of actively working on or is it sort of a byproduct of i guess things you might be doing anyway so i'd probably be doing it anyway but i am like pushing more into it because of you know being able to make content with it now when i go to a show i'm thinking in my head you know where can i go and do live streams um my first time at Expo after launching the podcast was when Labyrinth was launching and so I talked to the guys. I had just gotten streaming equipment and I'm like, hey man, I can, you know, just putting this out there. I can stream your game for the launch and they're like, oh sure, yeah. So I got to go, you know, all the throngs of crowds were waiting to go play all the 10 Labyrinths they had set up on the free pizza. Like I was already back there, set up equipment and I'm like, okay, cool. I guess I'm doing this now, you know. Like that was so awesome. So that's like an opportunity like I wouldn't have had, you know, without doing this part of it. Yeah, I mean, part of it is really just sort of putting yourself out there, right? And, you know, hoping some goodwill comes from that. A hundred percent. It's so fun, too. So, you know, now it's like you try to stop me. I'm going to be there. What would you say that you've kind of learned about the pinball industry through these relationships and sort of conversations that you're having with people? Like, is it different or the same from some other industries that you've been a part of, like coasters or the medical field or whatever else? Yeah, just seeing it. Like, in your head, you see these companies, there's just these monolithic structures, and it's like, this is the Wonka factory. We don't know what goes on in there, but stuff comes out. Why do they make the decisions that they do? And now my perspective is such that it's just dudes in there that are just making decisions, like regular guys, you know. and you know it's not like there's like a big decision on what the next game somebody makes is it's just like what do you think about this one I think we could try to get the license okay yeah go ahead and do it you know just some some decision on a Tuesday leads to what's going to consume the next 18 months of their production schedule you know it's all just just decisions made by regular people yeah so yeah so my perspective on the industry has totally changed now because like I see it. Yeah, that's really interesting. Would you say that there are any sort of like hot button issues that you've maybe learned to kind of steer away from in your interactions with people? Yeah, like so that's the thing, right? These games take 18 months to put together and like there's been teams of people that have been working hard on them for years. And then the games come out and, you know, not every game is for everybody. But, you know, you want to see it and you're like, oh, this thing kind of sucks. It shoots like crap. I hate the shot. It's like, that's like someone's work for two years, you know? And so if you have that separation, it's easy to go online and just be like, game's garbage next, you know? Um, but it's like, I try to see like how I can phrase that in a way that's constructive, you know? Like I want to, you know, respect their time and energy they put into something while also being objective enough to say like, this isn't really for me. Um, like, so that's, that's, that's kind of hard to do. Yeah, it really is. I can ask questions for like hours if anyone else wants to chime in with anything, feel free. Yeah, I mean, obviously, Don, you give games a different chance than some of your peers in the space, right? Yeah. I mean, is that a personality thing? Is that just like a love of pinball thing? I mean, how do you kind of reconcile that in your head in terms of like, why are you giving these games a chance and what's that experience been like for you? I know. I've got to balance it because I want to be objective. I don't want to just like shill games or something. I don't want to see a game that I don't like, but I talk it up just because I'm getting invited to industry stuff. You see a lot of blowback in that with like the Disney mommy bloggers where Disney will release something that's super expensive, overpriced, doesn't provide the experience that they used to in years past, and people will just glow about it because they got invited and they got free rooms at the hotel or something. So, like, I want to get invited to stuff, but then I want to still be objective, and so I'm trying to balance that part of it. So I think that's kind of what plays into how I approach it. But, you know, I think it's... Like, it's interesting to me because, like, WIC, for example, like, you know, you have it, and I know you're a fan of it. I've played that a lot, I've played X-Men a lot and at this point like WIC is just flat out like a better game and obviously it evolves right but what's been your experience with having WIC and like being kind of a proponent of it it seems like compared to say other media people yeah like you know Venom was pretty empty and I don't think I'm going on a limb saying that WIC also looks the same way but as a game like it feels fun, I wish there was more in it. I don't know if it needs an upper play field. I don't know if it... But it feels like it needed some other building mech or something. Some sort of more prominent physical ball lock. Maybe some more wire forms. But game shoots well. It's fun and it does have a good vibe. So when I look at judging games and things, I do it Excel spreadsheet style almost. It's the sum of the art, the gameplay, the rules, the theme. So Godzilla is praised as one of the greatest games of all time. It's really good. I do like Jaws better. I don't like Jaws better because all the shots and the layout are better than Godzilla. I think Godzilla is better there. Godzilla's got the better mechanisms. But that theme just puts it up over the top so when you rank each separate area and add up all the points at the end, that puts Jaws slightly ahead. I don't know if that answered the question or if I wandered off into the weeds. No, it's interesting. I was having a conversation with some of the guys with the Loser Kid podcast and it's like it is really hard to kind of really get consensus on what makes a good game. I mean, like, it's all over the place. Wick has a cool vibe when you're playing it. I do like that. I like that lady that does the call-outs. It sounds like she's the narrator from Toonami back on Cartoon Network back in the day. It sounds like the same lady's voice. I dig that. But if that was just a generic theme, that game wouldn't be as fun as it is. But it's still not a contender for Godzilla or Game of the Year or anything. Yeah. Hold on, buddy. Let me move some of this up. Speaking of Game of the Year, do you have any – we've got hopefully some awards coming up, Colin. I don't know if it's too early to talk about that, but any – Official announcement coming tomorrow. Oh, sweet. Any Game of the Year in your head, Don, so far? Yeah, I'd probably just say Jaws for sure. Like Jaws Premium, all that code that they're putting in there. Even when I had it and it didn't have those extra games and stuff, it was still, like, so fun. But, you know, I love that movie. That movie's, like, legitimately a good movie, just the characters in it. So I'd probably go with that, and then runner-up would be the combination of TCM and Looney Tunes. Would you treat that as one game or two distinct games? Yeah, because, like, they could totally have a contender if, like, they just came out with Looney Tunes. But because they have both, it's going to split the vote. But they play so different. You know, it's not like Ultraman and Halloween where it was like the same coding team, essentially the same type of rules. You know, like everything's treated so different. It's so fun to jump from one into the other one. I only know of like two other people that have both of them. But it's like fun to play one and then jump right to the next one and then jump back. Saying that, though, I sold Jaws. I haven't seen it. Oh, all right. So Elton shoots better than Jaws. But, again, if you add up all the points for me, that the theme matters so much more and, like, the vibe matters so much more. Elton's a great game, but longevity-wise, like, I would buy Jaws again. I haven't even bought Elton for the first time, and I'm not really looking to. But that's me. and we're allowed to like our own stuff or whatever. You go back to the podcast stuff a little bit. Do you have, like, any goals for the podcast sort of separate from just sort of a creative outlet? Like are you trying to build towards something in particular or just sort of see where it goes? I mean, I started making mods just because I was interested in the process and how to do that. And then as I started making stuff, my friends would say, hey, I'll set you $10 for one of those. And now it's becoming more of its own thing where I'm taking pre-orders for things I'm designing, and I can kind of project where it's going. Once I figure out how to make my homebrew game and I can build a game top to bottom, that means I can build another one. That means I can make more integrated toppers, and then who knows where that could go. I'd also like to have more of a presence on YouTube as well. I'd like to build myself a studio set and start recording better content and things but all that takes so much time and energy there's only so many hours in the day I can devote to it but I would like to grow more into YouTube I'd love to have a play button I'd love to just do YouTube enough to get enough followers to get a play button and then I can go do something else I just want something to put on the wall, that'd be super fun but the time and energy and how much time I have If I could get rid of my full-time gig, it would open up so many more pinball opportunities. It's true for a lot of us, I think. So this is a question that I've sort of started asking people in the industry when we have sort of like casual conversations. but I'm really curious as a content creator, like how you go about handling negative feedback from the community on the content that you create. Like, does it bother you? Do you do anything to maybe shield yourself from it or like let off stress when it happens? Like I'm really curious how everyone handles those things. I'm listening intently. Yeah, Jamie. I mean, it's a question for you too. I'm listening. I'm taking this in. Sorry. All right. So, like, with most things, if, you know, what you're doing isn't, you know, interesting and isn't threatening to other people, people aren't really going to care. So, you know, there's this, like, vibe of, like, haters fuel me or something that you'll see some people project. I'm not at that level. But, like, if people are getting angry enough to type horrible things to you or like talk about you online, it means you must be doing something right because if you weren't, they wouldn't care, right? Like the more you shine, the more you're a beacon to demons that want to come attack you. So you have to – but it takes a level of maturity to recognize that as like, okay, it's because I'm building a profile and that's why these random people are saying this crap about me or whatever. So it not it hard to compartmentalize and separate that stuff and I take it personally But for the most part it doesn really bum me out Is that too loud for you or it fine If you could give any like new pinball content creators like a couple of tips is there getting started, or if they're early on their journey, like, what would you say? Oh, I'd say just start. Just make stuff and put it out. Before I launched all this, you know, I was watching tons of YouTube videos, how to make a show, how to launch it, you know, how to position yourself for success or whatever. And part of it was just get, like, you know, two or three shows, like, ready to go and just put them out there. Don't expect people to be showing up and listening right away. You know, just keep putting it out there. Everybody has 100 bad episodes in them, so just get them out. Get those 100 out there and then go from there, you know. And then, you know, what you'll find is that it just starts building slowly and organically. But if you look at it like I recorded a show, I put it out there, nobody's listening to it, no one's sharing it, like don't take that as bad, right? Yeah, it's a journey. Is there like a moment where you sort of knew that you hit like an inflection point in terms of people paying attention? Like was it like a specific episode or is it more like a slow burn? You know what it was? it was going to that Louisville show with like T-shirt prize packages in my backpack and have like, like random people come up to me and give me the password because they heard the show. Right. Like, like at that point I'm like, Oh my God, this is like, I'm interacting in real life with what I was recording at home on my desk in my computer room, you know? So like, like that, that was, that was huge. And then, you know, as I meet, you know, people at Stern that I've known, or, you know, I knew of them. And they're like, Oh yeah, You're done, right? You know, like just getting recognized like that is like, oh, it's crazy. You know? It's a little bit of a head trip sometimes. Yeah. But part of it is also like my measure of success is that I'm having fun and I'm being helpful, you know? So as long as I'm accomplishing that, that it's already been a success, you know? So I guess, yeah, I guess, you know, setting your goals, right? I'm not trying to get to 100,000 followers and like sponsorships and slinging, you know, VPNs and stuff. I just wanted to be having fun with it and so so far mission accomplished and so I'm just following along now is there anything that you would have done differently in the last couple years on your journey or is it all just kind of a learning process I don't think so you know I don't want to take on too much too soon I just started by recording this and then when I had a couple shows out I was like I need some merchandise how fun would that be to have my own t-shirt Yeah, it's almost done, buddy. So I started printing stuff and putting that out. It's almost done. Hey, BK, your mic is on. Yeah. Everyone's too nice to tell you. Oh, I want to hear the running commentary, BK. Oh, really? Yeah. How do I mute him? Oh, I muted him. Oh, I got to mute him for the server. Here we go. Server mute. Okay, sorry. Was it BK or BNK? B and K okay B and K sorry about that B and K I'm sorry B and K will save your day with guaranteed used appliances for less I remember that being a place I think it was in California that's what I think of every time I see it I think I totally lost the question oh anything I would have done differently I don't think so yeah okay cool just build slow build organically, make sure you're having fun with it, and make sure you're not being a tool to other people, I guess. Yeah, that's wise words. Um, like, uh, what's, um, what's going on in pinball right now that, uh, that has you kind of most excited? Is it, like, Evil Dead? Yeah, it's always new games, man. That's the best. Like, like, like, rumors and speculating about the new games, um, hearing the announcements, the trailer, playing it for the first time. You know, I love fish tales, right? But I mean, I've been playing it since I'm a teenager. You know, when I went into Evil Dead, like, I had never played that game before. I got to discover everything organically for the first time. You know, it's like when you go to like a new location or, you know, you see a band for the first time, it's like there's only one first time for that. When you go to a theme park for the first time, when you ride something for the first time, like, nothing's ever as exciting as that, you know, as cool as it is. So, like, this constant dopamine infusion of, like, here's a brand new game, you've never played it before, you know, go explore the shots, go have fun, you know. Like that, like I love that. It really is the best feeling. Anyone else have questions they want to ask? I'm kind of at the end of my prepared list, I guess. I got to play Space Hunt. That was great. I was planning a trip to France just to go and be able to play that, and then it showed up at Expo, and I'm like, fantastic. I was going to go to Bordeaux just to go play Space Hunt. I know you go to a lot of shows that a lot of us don't get a chance to go to. Any that you've hit up lately that you highly recommend that we may not be on our list? IAP is on such a different level. I don't know that it's for everybody because it's not a TPF. It's not Expo. It's not strictly just a pinball show, so it's got a different vibe. But the scope is unreal about that show. I don't know if anybody's been, but, you know, I've known about it. I've known about IAPA because, you know, I follow the entertainment industry, and so, like, that's where new rides are unveiled. Like, they'll bring a roller coaster car into the show floor, and you can sit in it and take pictures, you know, touch the wheels, like get all nerdy with it, interview the designers. And so it's always been kind of like you need an industry invite to be able to go. And then I start doing pinball, and all of a sudden, like, I have a reason to go now. And so last year was my first time there. I just went again. And it's like the size of seven Costcos. And pinball is there, but it's such a small part of everything else that's there. Because it's not a pinball show, though, there's not huge lines to play brand-new games. Coming off the Expo last year where Elton John dropped on the show floor and there was 30-minute-plus lines just to get close to it, I went to IAPA and it was like me and Ken Cromwell and Jack Guarnieri and nobody else. And I'm just sitting there playing Elton John for an hour by myself with the creators and owners of the company and everything, just talking, chatting, you know, pointing stuff out. Like that's a reason to go. And then just walking around and trying, like, the new Dippin' Dots, you know, seeing what's new in go-karts, you know, playing on a jungle gym, all the inflatables, the food. It's wild. When you see pinball in that kind of environment, I guess, one, does the average IAAPA attendee care about pinball? and two, can pinball actually compete with all that other stuff? Yeah, they care a lot differently than we care. We're looking at shots and layout, how's the code, is this thing fun? They're looking at is this something I can buy 60 of and put in my arcades or movie theaters across the country, or should I go and buy this Kong VR, or should I go buy these coin pushers, or should I go put in a bowling alley? So the people that are there are looking for products that they need. They're like purchasing agents for these bigger companies. And so, like, competing-wise, walking in and seeing the big Jersey Jack display of their pinball XP was very impressive. You know, but, I mean, looking at it and talking to the guys and seeing, like, you know, as a $100,000 product, you know, I think you'd make more money buying a couple of Kong VRs and some coin pushers, honestly, you know, rather than, you know, it's $45,000 of Jersey Jack games and then five big screen TVs and some technology. Like, I don't know if that's positioned correctly to compete. unless the MSRP is $100,000. But if you want to buy four of them, we can get you for like $65,000, and then we'll provide the maintenance and install and all that. Then it makes a little more sense. And maybe that's kind of how it was going from a show floor. But it would be great to see pinball expand again and kind of be everywhere. But when you're looking at return on investment, I just don't know that it's there with a $10,000 to $15,000 machine versus, you know, a $2,000 air hockey table or that $40,000 Godzilla VR that gets $10 per play, you know. So I don't know. I don't know. Oh, there you are. I got another one, but I'll let somebody else chime in if they want. Anyone? Anyone? Well, I'm curious about Jaws specifically, these alternate modes. Like, I don't feel like there's anything else like that in any other certain games, and I'm curious if, like, as an owner, it really, like, has changed the value proposition of the game to you significantly. Right. And maybe you can just give a little bit of a background on what these modes are, because I know not everyone knows. Yeah, so, like, Jaws nailed it, man. As you're playing the game, I don't even know how you do it, but just by playing it, you gain currency, and gain currency in the form of shark teeth and these shark jaws or whatever. And then you can cash those in to play these alternate modes. I love the idea of playing alternate modes in pinball machines. One of the things that always kept me from really seriously considering buying one of these things was the price is high, and eventually, what do you do when the game's kind of old to you? You've played it a lot. You don't play it as much anymore. Now it's just very expensive and sitting there. So the idea that you can go in and play the game in a different new way is huge. That's tons of replay value, right? When I was a kid and I had my NES and I played every one of my games to death, and then the Game Genie came out, all of a sudden I'm going to games like I was totally done with and playing them brand new because you could do different things with the same game. And I love that Stern brought that in with Jaws, and Elwyn probably helmed that. And I got really excited when John Wick came out, and there was this leveling system, and these John Wick points you can get. And I'm like, great, I can't wait to see how they use this. What kind of cool time attack modes are they going to have in John Wick? And then I talked to Sexton, and he's just like, oh, I just kind of put that in there as something fun, but it doesn't really work towards anything. And I'm like, the ball just dropped through the floor, man, come on. That's an interesting choice. Yeah, I mean, imagine going up to John Wick, you played it already, it's kind of whatever, new games have come out. But now you can go down there and go back to it, and you can play the time attack mode where, like, you know, all five adversaries are active at the same time, just like on Godzilla, like in that topper mode. That was super fun going back to Godzilla and playing through all that. So, you know, I want to keep pushing the idea in their ear, like, hey, this replay value thing is huge. You know, invest some time in coding this. It'll pay off. You know, people will keep their games longer. They'll seek them out. They'll be more likely to, you know, purchase one or go back and play it on location. I think it just sort of gives you a reason to talk about the game again within the pinball community, which in and of itself is a pretty big deal, I think. Yeah, I mean, my local operators, Jaws is still their number one game that's earning every month. People just keep coming back and playing it. Now, it's a great game to begin with, but just being able to play these other modes when they come out, I want to see that in every game going forward. I loved playing Venom 500 times Just to unlock all the characters And beat the game quicker That was super fun Bond did something interesting Where not only can you play The final wizard mode But you can play four other wizard modes Via the menu Before you play the game And that's been really cool for me Just because I can involve other family members In playing Bond Because I'm not the guy playing 45 minute games Where they're playing 5 minute games you know right so i really i really hope to see that more from stern i love what i see in jaws because it like a meta game more so than even just playing a mini wizard mode uh but yeah i think it adds a lot of value for sure Or even just that boss rush mode in Godzilla right Because then I can play with my wife and it like unlimited ball save time limit Each game is going to take five minutes unless you break through to the second round. And, yeah, it's not like one person is playing 40 minutes, the other person is playing two minutes and standing around. Yeah, exactly. So one thing I like about this is it gives me a way to get these ideas. and get them out into the industry like they listen to this. I've shown up at factories before, and I've caught people there watching other people's YouTube channels reviewing their games and things. So there's a conduit to take these ideas and put it in their heads, and I think it really has an effect. If this is what we want to see, let's keep telling them about it, and then watch that it happens. Or even just do it in a way where we make them think it's their idea they came up with. Either way, it happens, it gets implemented, and it's good for all of us. So I like that part of the industry. Is there anything that you can point to that you think was kind of an idea that originated with you that someone in the industry picked up on and ran with? I want to take credit for the revival of Black Knight Sword of Rage. I have no confirmation that I did, but looking at the market, it must have been about a year ago, I decided I wanted to get back into Black Knight Sword of Rage. I'd played the pro on location early on. I wasn't that good at it. It was brutal, kicked my butt. But then I kind of discovered it again, and I'm like, you know what? This would be a game, just like Rick and Morty. This would be good to have at home for a time where you could just play the crap out of it. And, yes, it's brutal, but at least you're not just, like, throwing quarters down the sewer, you know. You can get to play it. So I went to go and look for one because I figured this game's been out for years. It's got to be super cheap. And there were only a couple available, and the prices were high because of that. And I'm like, okay, looking at how many are available out there, how high the prices are, and the fact that they sell at those prices, that tells me there's demand for this game still. And part of that was just because there's not a lot of supply. And so I kept putting out there, like, I think this is a game, at least the pro version, that would sell because they're already selling for a higher price. Put some more out there, and then finally it happened. It helped that I saw them redo Stranger Things. That was the same situation. Stranger Things came out, wasn't a great seller at the beginning. The production was kind of halted. And so there just weren't that many out there. The game got better. People wanted it. The demand went up, and the price went up. So I saw something similar with Black Knight. And so it was super cool that they did another run of those. I thought Munsters would be another game they would run, even though no one says Munsters is a top 20 game or anything. But look at the prices. It's still commanding high prices even for the older ones. and now we're doing Metallica remasters. Now there's a Ghostbusters remaster. There's going to be a Tron remaster. It's happening. I don't know if I had anything to do with it. I'm sure they were seeing the same market research I was superficially seeing, but I'll take credit if she gets the game out. She should just run with it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was your idea. The revenue they made is credited to Dawn. Just go with it. Heck yes. I have a quick question. Sure. Don, in regards to when you're recording a podcast, do you put like a script together? Do you have notes? Do you – how do you map out your pods? Like this. I don't know if you can see it. I just make myself an outline. Writing a script means you're – for me, in my experience, means I'm going to be reading a script, and I want to be dynamic and interactive. So I just do bullet points of topics I want to talk about, so that way as I'm recording I don't miss something. But that goes back to when I was in high school and college, I competed in speech and debate, right? I got a letterman jacket in high school, not for contact sports but for forensics, right? And so my events were more impromptu. It's like here's a list of three historical figures. Give yourself three minutes and come up with a five-minute speech, and then that was your competition. So I got trained to see that, find a way to bullet point it, and the same way you would do a five-paragraph essay or something like that, and then get up and talk extemporaneously. And if you had just like bullet points of topics or like hot takes or something just in a list, you could talk about one, and then just as that one's getting wrapped up, you go right into the next one. And so that's what I do. So I got my legal pad next to me. It's the same way I did my speech and debate tournaments, and I just give myself my outline, and I just go down and make sure I hit everything. and so far as long as I don't do any major mess ups there's no editing to do it makes it really easy to just turn and upload it and then I can go on and go do something else and that also makes it easier to keep putting content out if I was doing a monthly show that had a lot of sound drops in it it would be a recording and then a lot of editing and then you would launch it but for me I much prefer just turn and burn and put these things out if I had to spend a month with some content editing it would just never come out I was just curious because it obviously we're a different podcast because I don't really give my opinion as much. Right. I'm more interviewing. Yeah. So I have to script out a little more. But yeah, Toastmasters, right? It was the best in high school or in college. Did you do Toastmasters in college? I didn't. I didn't. It was good. It was like getting up and giving speeches. Oh, okay. Yeah. Maybe if I was bitter, I would have gotten invited to that. It was just fun. Like, I don't know what's wrong with me. It's not like I liked public speaking. Like, it terrified me. But then I just kind of forced myself to do it. And then I just, I still always had that fear of it, but I could do it and pull it off. I used to hate drop towers, too, and then I just forced myself to ride them. And, like, now they're super fun. So I don't know. Maybe I'm just asochistic that way. you know but it's it's a it's so much easier though to hit record and put yourself on the spot doing pinball content or like at expo i was part of a panel with mad pinball talking about content generation and stuff um and that's so much easier than you know my my real job which is like you know walking into a room and telling somebody you know this is the type of cancer you have this is what you can expect it's not great you know that's a hard delivery this compared to that this is this It's just fun, man. BK, I don't know if I understand your comment in chat about the AI response. I don't know if you want to jump on the mic. No, I was just saying that I was curious what, you know, if you're, are you using AI? I was just playing around. Is anybody using AI to help develop content? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, yeah, like, I don't know, Canva, like to generate images to use or background images. I see a lot of people doing that. I'm still trying to learn that process. You know, but for me, if I want to make a really saucy thumbnail for a video or something, I don't have the skills to be able to do that. But if you can throw it into, you know, throw in a template, you know, into your AI generator, and then it comes up with some kind of dynamic graphic or a video intro for you, it saves you so much time and puts out something that's semi-professional. So I could see myself using more of that. I wouldn't do it to write a script for myself, but maybe if I wanted to design a sticker or something, it saves a ton of time for someone like me with no artistic skills. I'll use it to clean up some of my copies sometimes or help me get unstuck. If I've got some writer's block, it's pretty helpful for that. I know there's like a normalization filter I use when I'm interviewing somebody and we're recording, so our audio levels kind of match up a little better. It'll go through and process everything and try to bring us a little closer together so someone's not really quiet and someone's really loud. It totally writes my descriptions. I totally use it for the descriptions of the podcast. That makes sense. I'm probably not even harnessing it to the amount I probably could and save a ton of time and have better quality. Yeah, I just write it up, and then I go to Gemini, and I say, make this sound better. Oh, man, you can just take video clips and throw them in, and it can, like, auto-generate you something. It won't have that – it won't, like, convey the same emotion, though. It's still going to be artificial. But at least, you know, if you're making, like, TikTok shorts or something, that's probably helpful. So we are at time. Does anyone have any last-minute questions that they want to ask before we wrap up? How about anything? I don't mean to dominate it. Life. Top three roller coasters, go. Oh, okay, Matterhorn, Disneyland for sure, Blue Fire, Europa Park, Rust Germany, and let's pick something fun, Ice Mountain, Bob Sleds, Turner, Oregon, at that Storybook Land Park, Enchanted Forest. Yeah, for sure. Nice. Will they enforce overrated or worth the hype that it's accrued over the years? It's rated. It's fun. It's fast. It's fun to ride in October when the mist is coming in in the evening, the days are cooler, the wind's coming off the lake. That's a cool experience. You know, as far as, like, single coasters, there's better ones out there. But, man, yeah, it's good. It's good. You've got to come up to Canada. At Canada's Warland, they're going to be releasing Alpen Fury. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it yet, but I'll send you a link. It looks insane. I haven't been. Yeah. I went to that park like 10 years ago. It was before Behemoth, man. I've got to get back there. Oh, man, yeah. You've got to ride Leviathan. I know. Behemoth's good, but Leviathan is insane. And this new park, this launch coaster, Alpenfury, is fucking crazy. I love it, man. It's a good work trip. Parks are so much fun. I like rides. I like any kind of vehicle and a track, right? So I like railroads. I like log flumes. I like dark rides. I like pinball because it's, you know, a ball and a track, you know, and it's interactive. It's themed. So there's a ton of crossover. But it's fun to play a pinball machine for the very first time. It's fun to go to a theme park for the very first time too. And so the more I do that, the harder or more work it requires because you have to start traveling farther and farther afield, you know. So, you know, I've done most of Japan, most of Europe, the whole U.S., Canada, Mexico, Caribbean. And so now it's like I got to go to Singapore to go to brand new parks. You know, there's a couple in Europe I haven't hit now. Now I'm starting to go to more obscure places. But it's super fun. Like I like to go to new places, new experiences. And the side effect of that is, you know, you get immersed in a different culture that has solved the same problems in your own culture but in a different way and in a way that you wouldn't have realized, right? So, you know, your perspective of reality expands every time you travel to a place you haven't been before. And then what happens is when you come back home, you're not coming back to the same place anymore because your perspective has been changed. So I think, yeah, whatever gets people to travel is always going to be a good thing. Okay, so one final question, and we'll wrap it up. From B&K, how soon before District Dawn expands into the mirrored back glass market? Oh, my God. Yeah, if I could figure out how to do that myself. Right now I know two people in the world that produce quality mirrored back glass. But, you know, I've looked at large format printers. I've looked at it. It's just how much time do I have to open up my own print shop, right? So probably six weeks. Yeah, production is always the hard part, I think. Yeah. All right. That was fun. Thank you, Don, and thank you, everyone, for coming out and participating. participating. If you're not following or listening to Don's pinball podcast, please make sure you do. Um, and we will be back same time next week. Um, don't know if we'll have a guest, but, but we'll talk pinball and hang out. Thanks everyone. Awesome guys. Later.