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Ep 25: WinnerKids

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 51m·analyzed·Jan 15, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Final Round Ep25: Marty sells machines, debate on Led Zeppelin/Stranger Things design

Summary

In Episode 25 of Final Round Pinball Podcast, hosts Jeff Teolis and Marty Robbins discuss personal updates including Marty selling his pinball machines due to moving house, and Jeff's experiences with PS5 gaming. Guests Scott and Josh from Loser Kid Podcast join to discuss recent games including Led Zeppelin (which Steve Ritchie designed) and Stranger Things, with debate over game difficulty and design philosophy.

Key Claims

  • John Borg is now the speaker's favorite designer, surpassing Steve Ritchie

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis, discussing his personal preferences for pinball designers based on reviewing games he likes

  • Led Zeppelin is described as the easiest game Steve Ritchie has designed

    medium confidence · Scott/Josh reporting what Tim Lee said about Led Zeppelin Pro being very easy, likening it to Monsters

  • All Australian machines (Pro and Premium) of Stranger Things came with UV/blacklight mod as standard

    high confidence · Marty Robbins discussing Australian Stranger Things distribution differences

  • Stranger Things code is easier with newer updates compared to original release

    medium confidence · Marty discussing his streaming experience with Stranger Things after initially hating it

  • Wizard of Oz is the heaviest pinball machine ever made

    medium confidence · Guests discussing difficulty of moving Wizard of Oz, comparing it to other heavy games like Hobbit and Star Trek Next Generation

Notable Quotes

  • “I'm now divesting myself of all my pinball machines. They're going.”

    Marty Robbins @ early in episode — Major personal announcement affecting his podcast participation and home collection

  • “John Borg is my favourite designer... I kind of just looked back at all the games that I liked and I went, hang on, there's some commonality here.”

    Jeff Teolis @ mid-episode — Significant shift in designer preference, introducing concept of 'Borgies' as fan term

  • “I don't hate it. I actually like it a lot more... if you do invest in it... you will over time maybe a long bit of time, actually really start enjoying it once you learn how to absolutely nail those shots.”

    Marty Robbins (re: Stranger Things) @ later segment — Reversal of previous stance on Stranger Things after extended play session

  • “It kind of got better. Buy this game. And I would never buy it ever, ever.”

    Marty Robbins (re: Stranger Things) @ later segment — Paradoxical summary of his experience, creating humorous contradiction

  • “Jurassic Park was number one by leaps and bounds. And in second, also by leaps and bounds, Iron Maiden.”

    Jeff Teolis @ mid-episode — Pinclash streamer survey showing L1 (Elwynn Lee) games as most commonly owned/desired

Entities

Marty RobbinspersonJeff TeolispersonScottpersonJoshpersonJohn BorgpersonSteve RitchiepersonLed Zeppelingame

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Extended discussion of how game difficulty affects casual vs competitive players, using Led Zeppelin (easy/flow-based) and Stranger Things (difficult shot requirements) as contrasting examples. Debate over whether easier games like Led Zeppelin sacrifice depth or enhance accessibility.

    high · Multiple discussions comparing game difficulty, player skill requirements, and shot accessibility across Ritchie and Borg designs

  • ?

    design_innovation: John Borg (L1) identified as producing three consecutive successful, innovative games (Archer, Jurassic Park, Avengers) each with unique layouts and mechanics, suggesting deliberate design philosophy rather than formula repetition. Contrasted favorably with Steve Ritchie's consistent formula approach.

    high · Jeff's analysis: 'L1, when his first game came out... three very different designs with great shooting layouts, great rules, great art... three absolute winners right off the bat.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Marty's opinion of Stranger Things shifted significantly after extended play session (4 hours) from strong dislike to cautious appreciation, though still wouldn't purchase. Illustrates how skill development and familiarity can change player perception of difficult games.

    high · Marty: 'I don't hate it. I actually like it a lot more... once you learn how to absolutely nail those shots... I would still never buy it, ever.'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Marty divesting all pinball machines (Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Wizard of Oz, Jurassic Park) due to house sale. Real estate agent advised against machines as home sale deterrent. Machines being stored with friends temporarily.

    high · Marty: 'I'm now divesting myself of all my pinball machines... a real estate agent come through and we said, should we leave the pinball machines... he said, I think it's best to not have them'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.334

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine Welcome to the final round
0:39
It's a new year, it's a new show, same two old hosts. I'm Geoff Keels. New show, it's a new episode. There's nothing new about this show, but quarter of a century, here we are, episode 25. Welcome everybody. Two bits, do you call that a quarter in Australia? Two bits? No. Is that like a coin or a currency type comment that you're talking about? I don't know, I just used to hear old prospectors talk about, I can use two bits. and I was like, what the hell is two bits? And I guess it's a quarter, but actually isn't two bits like testicles or something like that? Yeah. It is, isn't it? Correct. So is your two bits. It is. Absolutely. So this is the testicle show, apparently. Final round. Really? With two big testes. That's us.
1:25
Speaking of two, how was your last two weeks, or as we like to call our little Fortnite follies? What happened to you in the last couple weeks? Why is Fortnite not a thing? Is it just an Australian thing or is it a British thing? It's always been important. How do you say 20 years? I say 20 years. Oh, you don't go score like Abraham Lincoln or anything like that? No. Is that what a score is? Four score and seven years ago? Yeah. I can tell you now a score in Australia is very different to years. And what perverted thing is a score in Australia? Well, there's two things. You either score a chick or you score some drugs. They're the two scores. Okay. Is everything perverted in Australia? The answer is yes, yes, it is. You knew that before you asked the question, Jeff. So, it is true. So, what happened in your last fortnight? You know what, nothing major really, except that I'm now divesting myself of all my pinball machines. They're going. What? It's gone already. Yeah, that's true. Wait a second, how can you be a podcaster and not have pinball machines? That is just, there's nobody who could possibly do that. Well, there are podcasters that don't play pinball. so you don't have to actually have pinball machines in your house or play them, apparently. But no, I, after 20, I think 21 years of living in this house, we are finally moving. And in order, it's really funny, in order to sell the place, we've got to make it looking its best. And we had a real estate agent come through and we said, should we leave the pinball machines or should we get rid of them? And he said, I think it's best to not have them in the house. So you are embarrassed of your dirty little secret hobby. Oh, Marty. Oh, I wouldn't say I'm embarrassed, but it is certainly a dirty hobby. No, it's more so if you're putting your house on the market, you want to have it appealing to the most people possible. And he was sort of saying that as you walk into my house, the very first room you walk into has four pinball machines, and that's all it's got in the room. So that might be a bit of a turn off Is what he was saying Or maybe a niche market Yeah I thought it might have been a bit cool So I'm now People are minding my Machine so two have already gone Star Trek's gone That nearly killed me Lord of the Rings is gone Tomorrow Wizard of Oz goes And then the following day Jurassic Park Goes if it doesn't sell beforehand I'm just thinking about this there are potential real estate buyers that might be looking in the Melbourne area, and you have a lovely area where you live, a lovely home too, but they might be listening to this podcast and thinking, oh, I don't know if I want to buy from that guy who has pinball machines, so I might, until the house sells, have to find a replacement for you, Marty. Just, again, to help you with your real estate, that's all, because heaven forbid, give your love to pinball. Hmm, let me think about that. I feel that you've been trying to replace me for some time. And now your colors are truly showing. Is that really what's happening? No, no, no. No, it's not like we're going to interview other podcasters on the show today. Oh, shit, yes, we are. Oh, damn. Sorry about that. No, no. But the good thing is, you know, a blessing in disguise, because, as you know, because I did get a call out on an honorable mention, if you will, on your top ten, which I'm sure you're going to get into. What are you talking about? Well, the top ten influential people on the Pimple profile, right? I got an honourable mention and you called out the fact that I've expanded the group of people that are streaming so we've got Dr. Curly Tech Hashman Danger Ray and Eric and the good thing is because they've got such great collections I'm just going over to their place and streaming now so that's what happened I kid in the pinball profile top 10 most intriguing would you say interesting or what was the word you used? oh I don't know most in your pocket I don't know they're all a piece of board something yes yes No, that's final round. That's reach rounds. Hello. Cha-ching. You're right. You were mentioned in there, and I did say a joke about if I didn't, he'd kill me. But no, seriously, the fact that you did expand that and doing a new podcast, I think it was different for both of us. We've certainly known each other for a long time. We've been on each other's podcasts in one way, form, or another several times. but to do something totally different and on a different network like the pinball network you don't always know how it's going to work whenever i appeared on head to head in different forms it was like short bullets like it was just a they were like flybys right like just i made sure one minute two minutes max that's it get in get out don't overstate you're welcome so now we're doing these long formats which is also new for me because pinball profile i've done episodes 10 minutes long. Yeah, that's true. I think you've had an hour episode, but that is just like very rare for you. It's usually about a half an hour format, isn't it? Half an hour is the sweet spot for me for Pinball Profile. Absolutely. Because I think when I go an hour, it's either there's a lot of content or it's a guest, I think. I'm probably not going to get them again in the near future. So let's get it all out or a retrospective or something like that. But yeah, 30 minutes is the sweet spot for me. Easier to edit too. Yeah, I bet. I bet. So nothing else really happened. We'll talk later about Stranger Things, which I streamed and got to play, which you and I have obviously talked about before, and I streamed Walking Dead, and I don't know, I kind of say this all the time when I sort of stream a game that I haven't played for a long time.
Stranger Things
game
Jurassic Parkgame
Iron Maidengame
Tim Leeperson
Wizard of Ozgame
Elwynn Leeperson
Walking Deadgame
Pinclashorganization
Black Knightgame
Loser Kid Podcastorganization
Final Round Pinball Podcastorganization
Raymond Davisonperson
Dave Hashmanperson
  • $

    market_signal: Pinclash streamer survey shows Jurassic Park (Borg) as #1 most commonly owned, Iron Maiden #2. Indicates L1/Borg games have strong adoption and demand in streaming/home collector community.

    high · Jeff: 'Pinclash asked all the streamers, what games do you have in common so that we can stream? Jurassic Park was number one by leaps and bounds. And in second, also by leaps and bounds, Iron Maiden.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Multiple concerns raised about Led Zeppelin's upper flipper shot to stand-up ramp - described as bullshit or lucky by several streamers. Contrast with Avengers' three-way ramp that works from all flippers. Questions whether design creates unintended difficulty spike.

    medium · Discussion of upper flipper shot: 'I've heard a lot of streamers say that's bullshit, saying that that upper flipper goes to that ramp... Zach said it on the pinball show, he lucked into it, but he didn't feel good about it.'

  • $

    market_signal: Australian Stranger Things machines received UV/blacklight mod as standard on all versions (Pro and Premium), unlike US distribution. Theory that retail-price-only market in Australia required mods to move units, compounded by negative press from US before Australian release.

    high · Marty: 'All Australian machines, even the pros and the premiums, all came with the UV mod as standard... because we only pay retail price, we don't have street-level price, I think they probably needed to put them in to move units.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Final Round experimenting with long-form guest segments on Pinball Network, different from previous short-form contributions to Head to Head. Marty noted format differences (usually 30-min sweet spot for Pinball Profile vs longer Final Round episodes).

    medium · Discussion of podcast format shifts and guest appearances on different networks and show structures

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Recognition that Elwynn Lee (L1) has graduated from rookie status to veteran designer status after three games, though hosts debate terminology. Emerging as top-tier designer comparable to John Borg.

    medium · Discussion of whether three games and several years constitutes 'veteran' status, with consensus that L1 is no longer a rookie designer

  • ?

    operational_signal: Discussion of difficulty moving Wizard of Oz due to extreme weight, compared to other heavy machines like Hobbit and Star Trek Next Generation. Winter logistics in Canada mentioned as additional challenge for game deliveries.

    medium · Josh: 'Nothing sucks more than moving games in the winter'... discussion of Wizard of Oz being heaviest machine, requiring special handling

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Extended analysis of how game difficulty affects player experience - Stranger Things described as unforgiving to casual players (miss shots = death) but rewarding after 3+ hours of practice and skill development. Paralleled with Black Knight design philosophy.

    high · Marty's detailed explanation of Stranger Things learning curve and how three hours of practice made the game enjoyable

    • 7:04
    Oh my god, Walking Dead is such a good game. Yeah. It is such a good game. It is tough when it wants to be. It's really rewarding when it wants to be. It's just a very, very well balanced game which gives you a lot of options and choices on how you want to play it. Oh, I love it. I love it. Love it, love it, love it. And I hated it when it first came out. I think everybody did. I think that was kind of universal. When it came out of the pops, could you survive? There were some tough shots of the code wasn't like it is today. So, yeah, some games just take a little bit of time. But boy, when Borg's game is on, holy shit are his games amazing. And I don't know whether we've had that discussion, but someone had asked me what's my favorite designer. And You know, up until recently, without a blink of an eye, I would have said Steve Ritchie. Easily. Steve Ritchie. Favourite designer always has been. It's not. It's actually John Borg is my favourite designer. And it wasn't me saying, oh, immediately I think of John Borg and therefore I like his games. I kind of just looked back at all the games that I liked and I went, hang on, there's some commonality here. It seems that I really like John Borg's games without knowing that I was a Borgie. Which I think is the new term for the fans of John Borg Just started right now I believe I am a Borgie officially I'm a massive fan of his games as well I think, boy it's neck and neck between him and L1 right now Because L1's giving me shots and layouts I've never seen before Borg I certainly like his layouts a lot But I bought a Guardians of the Galaxy because I didn't own Iron Man or Metallica So it's kind of like a hybrid in a way? Yeah. We talk about Steve Ritchie and Led Zeppelin. Is that Star Trek? Yeah, there's a lot of Star Trek in that. There's some ACDC in that. You've seen some of these shots before, but it's a formula he works. That's what Steve wants. He wants when you play a Steve Ritchie game, you know where the shots are, and no question you do with Led Zeppelin. But Borg, that Walking Dead, there's nothing else like that. Tron? No, that's true. God, I love Tron. Now, there are other games like Tron, but that's a good layout. But L1, when his first game came out, I was like, this is a great game. Finally, Archer has come out. And then they came out with Jurassic Park. I'm like, that's pretty unique. And then this Avengers came out, both the Pro and Premium, very different, but very good. And it just got me thinking, jeez, look at Pinclash. All right, Pinclash asked all the streamers, what games do you have in common so that we can stream? Jurassic Park was number one by leaps and bounds. And in second, also by leaps and bounds, Iron Maiden. So that just tells you they are a fan of this no longer rookie designer, but a guy who, even with three games under his belt, is a seasoned veteran. I don't think you could say seasoned veteran at all if you looked up the definition of that. But certainly what I would say is no longer a rookie and has just, we probably aren't heard of, to have three absolute winners right off the bat. You know what I mean? Like some designers will take some time to find their feet and they will usually give you a variation of previous designs. We just haven't got that. From Elwynn, we've just got three very different designs with great shooting layouts, great rules, great art. So, again, I wouldn't call him a seasoned veteran. I don't think he's got the years to be able to say that. He's an old fart. Come on. He's an old fart. He's only designed three machines. It's not like he's a young boss like Eric or Scott Denisey. He's only designed three machines. That's not a season center. Three is the sweet spot. Is Brian Eddy? He's only done four? Well, he did them over many years. Oh, it's what you did them over. Here's what I'm talking about. Oh, okay. Yep. Come on. What does a veteran mean? Somebody experienced over a longer period of time. Okay, Archer was done a long time ago. Okay, we're going to get as far as me trying to convince you of what DJs do. It's just not possible because even though I'm educating you, you're still refusing to learn. I think he's right on the cusp of being called a veteran, and it's not like he's a rookie coming out of the gate. I think he's 59, 72, somewhere in that range of age. Okay, he's maybe not quite 50 yet, but he's been around for a while. And I don't know. I think the third game puts him in the veteran status. That's all. Anyway, it's on the cusp, all right? Yeah, I'm giving up. By the way, the DJ thing, don't shit on me about the DJs. I like DJs. I just don't like the Twitch DJs who do fuck all. No, no, no, no. Here's the thing. Sorry, we're going to digress, guys, because this fucking grinds my gears.
    11:53
    Those people that are doing it on Twitch are doing exactly the same thing as those people that are doing it in stadiums. So you can't just look at it and go, ah, they're just there tradling knobs. That makes you sound like a really old 50-year-old. A seasoned veteran.
    12:09
    In the DJ world, apparently. So anyway, we're just going to go nowhere with that. Fine. By the way, you know what the Twitch thing all started about? It was about people doing really nothing and just maybe looking really good on camera and having a bunch of followers for how they look or how they're dressed. So DJs kind of fell into that category. That's where it kind of... I know. That's what we're talking about. What you guys don't know, Jeff and I had... I don't know. It probably only lasted an hour, which is, you know, more than longer than you last. But we had this afternoon where we were pissing ourselves just sending each other links to Twitch pages for people that were just doing ridiculous things and had 5,000 people viewing, 10,000 people viewing. The funniest for me, I know you were there because we watched at the same time, was this woman who was doing ASMR, which is hence our sponsor for last year. She had a double-ended microphone, and one side of the microphone was the left ear, the other one was right. But on the end of the microphone was a plastic ear. She was whispering into an ear that was a microphone. and it was like,
    13:29
    thank you, Dracteolus1345, for the follow. Please, put flippers and butts up in the channel. It was just... You're right. So we were dying laughing at this shit. But who's laughing, really? They're the ones laughing at us. We do a podcast for five fucking people and maybe you do a stream for 20 people. We bust our nuts. We edit the shit out of our shows, and they're just going on there, picking their nose. 5,000 followers, 3,000 subs. They quit their day job. What are we doing that's wrong? I don't know. It was the problem. It was hilarious, because you were actually getting really quite angry, which is why the whole DJ thing started coming up as well. And I said to you, do you know what? I wish I had a soothing voice that I could do ASMR, or I wish I had those assets that people could look at and get all the followers. Unfortunately, I know a bit about pinball and we've got a limited audience. Don't count us out, Marty. We're never out of the game, all right? There's always time to reinvent ourselves, okay? So, hence why we're doing reach around, guys. We need the cash.
    14:45
    But anyway, Jeff, please do enlighten us all. How was your fortnight? Well, just as you're getting rid of your pinball machines because you're ashamed of people coming into your house and seeing these god-awful, beautiful games of yours. You know, if you had toppers, maybe you wouldn't have moved them, by the way. I'm just pointing that out. Sure. Yep, fair enough. I am also shifting gears a little bit. I got a PS5, as you know. I do not. And I'm trying to learn this. You know how I'm not really good with the action button on pinball machines because I've got to move my hands a lot? So how am I going to be with a PS5, which have 1, 2, 3, 4, 16 different things you can do on it, I think? Yeah, not good, I'd imagine. No. You know why? Because I don't have to move my hands, Marty. Pinball, I don't like going to the middle with the action button if it's a massive flip thing. If it's one time, big deal. But with a PlayStation 5, it's all becoming second nature for me with sports games and stuff. But I'm trying to get into other games right now. So I did the dumbest thing ever. I downloaded one of those Call of Duty games. Yes. Chris Stevens, who was on recently, you know, he's a big player. So is Keith Elwin and a bunch of other great people. Evan Bingham, Fred Cochran, a lot of great players. I wanted to practice because I didn't want to go in with my peers, right? So I thought I would go into one of these battle royales with a bunch of noobs, right? And you talk on these, as you know, I'm learning. So, oh my God, I thought I had to gift a gab. I thought I could insult with the best of them. Try playing one of these battle royales with a bunch of 12-year-old boys who are pissed off at the world. Holy cow, did I learn a few things. Like, for one, my mother has slept with a lot of people.
    16:29
    You did not know she was that? Well, I slept with her. She slept with me, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, look, isn't it funny? I refuse to play online games for exactly that reason, and you can't turn it off. But if you're looking for a few good insults, do it, because you can write these down. You're like, all right, next time someone says that, I'm going to throw that in their face. And they cut deep. Let me just say that. Oh, I had to call my mom up. I'm like, hey, everything going all right there? She's like, oh, I can't talk right now. I'm busy. I'm like, I bet you are.
    17:08
    Anyway. Oh, COVID doesn't stop my mom, apparently. I'm just imagining me having that conversation with my mom. It's so wrong.
    17:25
    Oh, special place in hell already booked for this guy right here, I'll tell you that. Anyway, we have special guests right now, great friends of the show and in life in general, two stand-up guys that we can't say enough about, and I'd love to give insults. None are coming to mind because I really like these guys. Scott and Josh from Loser Kid Podcast, and they join us now. Hey, guys, how are you? Doing great, guys. How are you guys doing? We're really good. It's, you know, 2021, already better than 2020. Wait, really? Okay, I guess you're in a different country, so your capital didn't start burning down. So, okay. In Australia, it's better already, but on the global scale, I don't know. The funniest comment I've said is, after assessing my seven-day trial, I want to give my product back. Yeah.
    18:16
    I saw another one that said, all the stuff we spend on national defense and the capital falls to a guy from Duck Dynasty and a guy in a Chewbacca bikini.
    18:26
    I still think my favorite is the Walking Phoenix Joker showing around Pennywise. Oh, yeah, yeah. This is all yours.
    18:34
    Around the new workplace. Marty, these are a couple of Americans laughing at what we on the outside are looking at and going, what the fuck is that? My other favorite is... I had to say that on Tuesday. I think that's along the lines of, the world is currently watching America like America watched Tiger King. Absolutely. That is apt. You know what? It's just like when you go to a family reunion and half your family's drunk and yelling and throwing stuff, and you just kind of look back and you're like, well, you kind of expected it, right? Yeah. So for the next hour, we're going to talk politics. In fact, I think the last time we talked politics, we got a really nasty email saying, don't talk politics. Actually, it was from a guy from Utah, too. Yeah. Wow, that's fun. It was pretty Scott. Yeah, here's the thing. If you don't actually at least address what is going on in the dumpster fire that is 2021 right now, then, yeah, I'm good. You should at least laugh at it and move on. So, segue into Dumpster Fires Have you guys played Led Zeppelin yet? I haven't Wow I hope what I've done an in-depth review sent to me already Yeah I haven't played it yet I do have my premium on so I'll probably get mine later So, I haven't seen it There hasn't been any showed up in Utah yet Well, I'm obviously joking for Jeff's benefit and I think it cut quite deep I've now seen some more streams of it even more so keen to play it. I think it's going to be a really fun game. Yeah. I've only seen the pros being played. Are you friends with Tim Lee? So did you see he ended up with a Led Zeppelin Pro in his house? Yes, I did see that. So we had an in-depth discussion about this because it just was randomly dropped off at his house. He says it's a really fun game, very heavy on the combos. He says it is the easiest game he's ever played, though. That's his only real big downfall. It's just long, long. Has he not played Elvira? Has he played Monsters? He did liken it unto Monsters. Really? Yeah. But when Monsters came out, people were saying that was a brutal game. And then, you know, you had to turn the ball save on and you had to do some stuff. Also, parallel to another Steve Ritchie, my favorite game, Star Trek. People say that Star Trek is quite easy. Yeah, I don't know. I've never found Star Trek super easy. But I guess the ones I've played have been set up pretty hard. I think if you want to make a flow game, you've got to make your shots gettable, otherwise there's no flow. Yeah. Otherwise it's a trap and shoot. And I don't think Steve Ritchie is a trap and shoot kind of guy. You think so? Yeah.
    21:18
    Well, isn't it funny, though? Because wasn't Black Knight, didn't they say that's one of the most brutal games that have been made in the last while? And then they're like, and now Led Zeppelin, the total opposite end of the spectrum. Yeah. I think with Black Knight, the entry to the shots are closer to the flipper. So if you miss a shot, then it's brutal. But now that you've had experience on this, Marty, and maybe you have Scott and Josh, that isn't the most brutal game. It's still, new code or not, Stranger Things. How so? Yeah, I don't follow. How so? Hit any of those four drop targets and then pray it doesn't go out the sides or down the middle. go off the left ramp, watch it come back down because it bounces off the back hit the Demogorgon, doesn't go in although now there's the Demogorgon, Bob it's not a fun game because of that so an interesting parallel, if I may since you brought up Stranger Things because you know I streamed Stranger Things, I went over to Dave Hashman's place and he said, what do you want to stream? And I said Stranger Things because I've been on head to head and repeatedly on Final Round and absolutely bagged the crap out of it. And Jeff and I, we've been kindred spirits in our hatred for Stranger Things. And so I played it for four hours. And the summary for me now is I don't hate it. I actually like it a lot more. We're done. Hear me out, Jeff, because I'm not saying I love it. The layout is iffy. Iffy at best. But it takes about three hours. It took me about three hours to actually start getting a decent game because, like you said with the center targets and even the ramps, if you miss your shots, it is death. How does that three hours translate if you're playing it at an arcade? You would say, see you later, I'm done with this fucking game. Yeah, you'd walk away. Obviously, that is what I'm saying, Jeff. But what I'm also saying is, if you do invest in it, And if you've got this game at home, you will, over time, maybe a long bit of time, actually really start enjoying it once you learn how to absolutely nail those shots. Because if you don't, it is death. And that's my parallel I'll give with Black Knight, in that the shots are closer to you, so if you miss, they're out. So you just get better at making your shots. I still think Stranger Things is... Stranger Thongs, you're fine. That's way better game. It still is a bit of a dog of a game, but I started getting enjoyment out of it because I was getting better at it. There you go. You know, just because you talk longer doesn't make your point valid. No, it doesn't. And here's Scott and Josh. What I'm saying to you is play better. And if you just talk over me, that also helps your case. Josh, Scott, help me, because I've heard you guys bitch about certain games in the past. So let me just say a few things about Stranger Things and my partner, soon-to-be ex-partner, talking about his love of this game after three hours of torture. He's basically comparing it to being kidnapped and falling in love with your hostage taker because, you know, I've got nothing else to do for three hours. You know, best I just like it. Come on. Okay, so are you going to rename it Stockholm Syndrome? Yeah. Yes. Well, okay. Raymond Davidson says it's a great game, and he's the number one player in the world. He works for the company. He has to. Okay, he's also a much better player than everybody else. That's what's up. That is my point. My point is, if you're a casual player and your skills aren't great, you are going to hate that game because you miss your shots and it's over. So you're saying you set it to five balls, right?
    25:08
    You're just going to say, like, people were in chat saying, oh, my God, look at Martin's face. He is ready to punch somebody. and I was, for the majority of this four-hour stream, I wanted to just torch this machine, but then it clicked, and it kind of got better. I would still never buy it, ever. I would never want to own it, ever. Okay, so that's your tagline. It kind of got better. Buy this game.
    25:34
    And I would never buy it ever, ever. Wow. Yep. Throw it on a flyer. I'm going to be playing the LE in about a week's time. let's just see if the projector makes it enjoyable. Okay, does it have the mod, the blacklight mod? Yes. All Australian machines, even the pros and the premiums, all came with the UV mod as standard. Really? Yeah. Why was that? My theory is that because we only pay retail price, we don't have street-level price, I think they probably needed to put them in to move units. Okay, wow. Well, does it help, too, that you guys get them a couple months after we do if we were bashing on them for those two months. Like, crap, they're going to get to Australia. No one's going to buy these. I would also say that's probably a valid point, too. So for Australia's sake, we need to start bashing every pinball machine. Yeah. The toppers are too expensive. Yep. So maybe if we continue to bash Led Zeppelin, they might put toys in it by the time it gets to us. You don't like that 12-inch plastic dildo they threw on there that does absolutely nothing? We got to address this for a second. Jeff, I'm sorry, but Red Zeppelin sounds like a porno name.
    26:47
    Isn't that Jeff's license plate? No, no. It's funny enough. I just changed my license plate. My wife, I used to do a classic rock show called Big Red's Retro Rock, so kind of like a Red Zeppelin thing, and she got me a license in Big Red RR, and everyone was like, what the hell is the Big Red Railroad? I'm like, oh, fuck, anyway. I took that off, but, yeah, I went by Red Zeppelin. Listen, Teolis isn't the easiest name. And you know what, because you've heard me say it for five years on podcasts. But when you first go on radio, hi, this is Jeff Theolis. I thought about using my middle name. Hey, this is Jeff Douglas. Too game showy. So I'm like, fuck it. I'll just say Jeff Theolis. Or do the Red Zeppelin. And that wasn't very cool, especially since my first job in radio was at a country station. So Red Zeppelin didn't fit. On the Led Zeppelin mods, are they going to put like hypodermic syringes in there for Jimmy Page? Or how's it going? Hey, hey, hey. Take it easy there, all right? Those days are gone. He just turned 77, all right? Help the old man out All right all right Hey you know you can say the same thing about Rolling Stones Keith Richards yeah Yeah They could put the fishtails that got the fish chopper they could put that on the Zeppelin. To do what? Hawking Zeppelin? No, okay, do you remember those things on the wall where it had the singing fish? Yep. Maybe it could be a singing Zeppelin. Okay, Josh, did you know that fishtails actually had those before the singing fish? Python was a bit of a, you know, trendsetter. He is, for many a things. Yes. No, I've got to tell you, I've seen a lot of the Zeppelin streams, and of course they're all pros. I can't stand the upper flipper shot going into basically a stand-up, but it is an important shot with the super jackpots. I've heard a lot of streamers say that's bullshit, saying that that upper flipper goes to that ramp. No, no, the Avengers flipper goes to that ramp. That is the only three-way ramp that you can use on all three flippers. The Led Zeppelin one, I think even Zach said it on the pinball show, he lucked into it, but he didn't feel good about it. But I did like the flow. I like the combos. I like the multipliers. You know, Laser Loss, Carlos de la Cerda out of Ohio has been streaming it a lot. And he's an excellent player. He just doesn't travel. He's really enjoyed it. And, yeah, it's a flow game. It's Steve Ritchie. You know what you're getting. Yeah. I'm excited to get mine. I'm actually moving my old Spider-Man to make room for Led Zeppelin.
    29:06
    Spider-Man's a better game so far. Yeah. Okay, by moving it, I'm probably moving it to my friend's house. Oh, okay. Which one of you has the weird basement that it's difficult to get games into? Oh, that's me. That's where you're dropping it in a black hole. And there's a reason why my Wizard of Oz down here, I'll have to helicopter that thing out or get a pinball drone because there is the cliffs of insanity out the back. I'm about to get my Led Zeppelin game in a week or so. And luckily, at the time of this recording, no snow on the ground, but it is January. I am in Canada, and soon it will be a frozen tundra. Nothing sucks more than moving games in the winter Now Marty just had to move a couple of games But it's summer there Piece of cake Well, I'm about to move my Wizard of Oz as well And I am dreading it That game has to be the heaviest pinball machine ever made Hobbit was also really heavy Star Trek Next Generation Jeez Why is it so heavy? Are there like dead munchkins inside it? Yes I would say so It's packed under the playfield I know, isn't it, using sort of Williams parts as well So it's, you know, it's right next to my Jurassic Park I can slide that thing sideways I can barely nudge my Wizard of Oz That's how heavy it is Yeah, I think I almost pulled up my shoulder trying to do a slap save Well, don't you have the special mod there, Martin? You were talking with, I remember when you and Ryan did that interview on Head to Head With the Smoking Monkey mod or whatever it is You got the one that, like, the legs kick out Like, if you hit something, it actually kicks out and hits you in the crotch if you're doing really busy.
    30:44
    Yeah, and funnily enough, I've actually got the latest Leor, whatever it is, mod for the Oz letters. Yeah, I got that too. I just can't bring myself to install it. It's just complicated, and I could be bothered. So I have bought so many mods for Wizard of Oz. Ask me how many I've actually installed. How many have you installed? Zero. Yeah, zero, absolutely. And I have the Crystal Ball mod, and I sold the Red Smoke Witch mod, and I'm getting the 2.0, and I have the Flying Monkey mod, and I have the Oz lighted things. But I also, the challenge is I have owned the game for four years, and I am going to be honest and brutal. I just barely updated to the latest code yesterday. It's a good thing you're not a surgeon or anything like that. Okay, well, I'm an anesthesiologist. I put people to sleep.
    31:40
    And wake them up. So are you saying you don't play it much? You know what? I have, I guess, other games. I gravitate towards faster games. So I've been playing a lot of Avengers. I played Iron Man exclusively until I finally sold it because I needed to actually mix up my gaming habits because all I was doing was going down and playing Iron Man. And so maybe I just like the fast games. So maybe Stranger Things is right up my alley because I could get those games over in like 45 seconds. Stranger Thongs. Thongs, that's right. Correct. Well, that would definitely happen. You did mention your profession. And I know, Josh, you're also an essential worker too. And I gave you both, even Marty, a shout-out on my recent pinball profile, top ten most intriguing people. You didn't quite make the top ten, but certainly you needed to be acknowledged for, you know, what you and others have done over this horrible last 10 months. How has it been? Let's just talk personal and get away from pinball for a second. You know how I sincerely feel for you guys and everybody out there because Marty and I, we just sit back, and it's you people that are on the front line, so to speak, and I can't thank you guys and others enough for what you're doing. So how has it been in the last little while? Well, I'm actually fully vaccinated now. I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah, and you get two shots, three weeks apart, it just felt like a shot in the arm and it was sore for a day and everything else. But in some ways, I was feeling like I took my kids out shopping today because it's ski season, so I was trying to get them all upgraded for skis. And even though I was still wearing masks, I was being a good citizen trying to do all that stuff. But it was different to think, you know what? Wow, we are getting closer and closer to getting back to normal. and when we're putting people to sleep, I mean, that's really the part where you're in danger because it's called an erysalizing procedure, the fancy way of saying that when someone goes to sleep and if they cough or do anything like that, there's little micro particles that come out and that's what is infectious for you and so since I'm within a foot of them, it does make me more vulnerable, which is why we were prioritized for the first vaccine, but it makes me feel like I can do my job without being, I guess, self-aware of how vulnerable we all are. And Josh talked about the personal friends who he lost. We have a nurse who is roughly my age. She's in her early 40s. And she has been hit super hard by coronavirus. And she is basically on a ventilator waiting for a lung transplant. But she was super healthy before all this happened. And so in many ways, I feel very lucky that I've been protected and insulated from all this craziness while knowing that in many ways, it doesn't matter how healthy we are. There's still that vulnerability that can strike anyone. So I'm really looking forward to the vaccine getting out there, everybody getting safe and really getting back to some normalcy in life. How about you, Josh? You know, it's been I want to point out. It's all right, Jeff, that we didn't make your top 10. It's not our first time. That's even this year yet to make the top 10 of anything. Wow.
    34:49
    Can I just say, it was Keith Elwin's fault. He held you back. I'm just saying. The guy's podcast poison. We talked to Keith way too much. I mean, he's just, yeah. No, you want to hear something funny? We got a message the day after we didn't make it, and someone said we do kiss Keith Elwin's ass too much. Okay. In defense, he was talking about you. Oh, yes. I mean, really, Josh has a picture of Keith Elwin on his bathroom mirror. That's what it is.
    35:16
    No, it is interesting. You know, I had one lady, I went to her home to fix her furnace, and she was very grateful that I was wearing my mask. I live in an area that is, I don't want to say anti-mask, but it's not common to see people wearing masks where I live. We've just made it a company policy. When we're going into homes, you know, we don't know what people have. We don't know what we're keeping in catch. People don't want to wear their masks. And so I was wearing my mask, and afterwards, the lady had reached out to the owner of the company to thank me for doing that because the other people, certain electricians and stuff like that, had come in and had not done that. And her daughter has an autoimmune disease and is like eight years old, and they have to pretty much keep her in a bubble because they don't want her to catch anything. And with COVID, it's a very scary time for their family. And so she was very impressed with the professionalism of our company, which blew my mind because I'm like, this is just taking care of one another, like putting on a mask. I'm coming into your home. I wouldn't expect you to come to my home and not wear a mask or not abide by my rules. Why the crap is it fine for other people to do that? But it is what it is. I had a similar situation. This was like in June. Somebody came to our house, a service person, checking the gas line. And everything was outside. I'm like, this is a piece of cake. And he says, do you mind if I go inside to use your washroom? And Ann and I looked at each other like, no one has been in our house. Like, you guys can't see me. I haven't cut my hair since March. Like, I don't go anywhere. There are weeks, not just days, weeks where I don't even leave my house. So I'm trying to be as safe as possible and keep the bubble, as you say, safe. But when that guy said, can I come in to take a piss? I was like, uh, uh. And he wasn't wearing a mask. I was so bloody nervous and stuff. So, yeah, that's just common sense for everyone. And as it relates to pinball, some of the leagues I'm in, we're talking about, okay, you know, if the U.S., everyone's vaccinated by June, and in Canada they're saying September, I don't know what it'll be like in Australia, but certainly lower cases there. when people start having players come into their homes to play their games, I think even a few months after it's going to be mask mandatory. There won't be any kind of finger foods and things like that. And maybe even limit the number of people. So I think what you did, Josh, is just common sense, like you said. But it's nice that you got the acknowledgement. Just getting back to what you're saying, I'm not trying to undermine everybody's experience with this. But I am saying there is emotional scar tissue from last year that we all, it feels like we were going 60 miles an hour and we hit a speed bump and it has recalibrated our reality and so yes the things that we would casually do to enjoy things before now are anxiety producing and even when we had an unboxing party because I had to do the stairs of death and so I had a close group of friends over to help me unbox Avengers and we did have a small meal that we were socially distanced. But at the first of the meal, I had everybody sanitize their hands and then only one person dished out what they were going to do. And so it's not like everybody was grabbing that spoon and passing that. And it was a completely different experience than your typical fun, having a party, enjoying people's experience. And it'll take us a long time to get back to that. It's kind of funny, though, like you look at the stuff and we say common sense. And I hope some of the stuff still stays around afterwards. Like, why weren't we having cooks wear face masks anyway to cook our food and stuff like that? Like, people have been more precautious in coming into work when being sick. Hello, the answer is because then they can't hork in your food. Come on. Yeah. But how many people just went to work because they were sick and they didn't think about it because they're like, well, I need the money, you know. And sadly, even in, I think we feel a little bit of invulnerability where it's like, well, it's a cold, I'll take some Sudafed. I'll wash my hands. But this is the first one that feels like this is a reality check. I am actually putting other people at risk by going to work when I'm not feeling well. And so I'm hoping that it's a new social contract that we make to take care of other people. When we feel that we are actively putting people at risk, I'm going to take a sick day. It's fine. We're good. The world's not going to end because I didn't show up to work. I think that that will help us when we dial down the intensity of emotions after this year I'm hoping we're a little more aware of our common man or our, I guess, mankind Just don't look at Capitol Hill from a week ago Jeez Hey, any openings in Melbourne? Well, unfortunately I think there is still a lot of restrictions for people coming from overseas but we would welcome people into Melbourne Look, you know, I think three days ago, we had three people get the virus in, obviously got their test back positive for the virus in Melbourne. And they're stressed of lockdown again. Like, we are just so extreme when it comes to this compared to the rest of the world. But, you know, today, for example, as we're recording, we've got a tournament that's running. Lucas from the Bayside Pinball Club is putting on a tournament today. It's non-IFPA. But we are going to talk about it for an hour because this is competition pinball. When this interview is done, we are going to talk play-by-play of every single thing. Okay, maybe not. But I've seen photos of it and everybody's masked up.
    40:44
    They're not huddling together. This is going to be the norm for some time and a way for people to be able to get out of the house and socialize. but just still doing it responsibly. But that's still where we're at. I mean, we are so far forward than a lot of other countries as far as keeping it down, but we don't feel it's over and we can go out there and celebrate like nothing's happened. So, you know, this is what I would say is still a post-COVID world where you've still got to be really precautious. Indeed. So, there you go. Can we talk about more important things than COVID right now? Marty, I know you've got something on your list there. Well, we sort of hinted at it before, but I just want to, because I feel for you guys, Scott and Josh, because you work so hard to put a quality podcast out there. You put yourself out there on the line, and you think to yourself, I am going to be on that list, and then it finally comes out, and you think, damn, I didn't make the Pinball Profile 10 Most Influential People list. And it worked. Because as Jeff and I know, with these kinds of lists, you're either on it or you're not. You're a winner or you're a loser. And I feel like I'm a loser here. Or you name 100 honorable mentions and then you're safe. Yeah, and then there's people that didn't make the honorable mentions. Like where's Jessie J in all of this? You know, I feel for her. Nothing. Step it up, Jessie. Or you could be like Jeff Teolis that's on the list twice, you know. Yeah. So good they had to put him on there twice. Yeah. How many podcasts do you have? I mean, can't you just zero in on one? Why do you have to flood the category with five different podcasts? My Star Wars one for my young Padawan didn't make the list, so I was kind of pissed off about that. But I guess we didn't mention pinball. Listen, all that means is – Hey, hey, hey, hey. But speaking of Star Wars, I told you I rode the Rise of the Resistance, right? Yes, yes, yes. Thanks for cutting off my shirt. Go on. Oh! All those lists mean is, I think Marty and I agree, what we don't like about any award shows, and we think they're fun and all that, so don't get pissy about that. What we don't like about them is there's one winner and everyone else is a loser, and that's not the case. Well, actually, you guys are losers. It's in your name. But the point is, there isn't just one winner. I mean, there's a lot of people doing great work, and it's not about awards. It's about, you know how you're doing well? And I say this all the time. Do you have people listening? Do you have people writing to you? Do you have people that want to be on your show? You and I and everyone sees all of our downloads and all that stuff. It must be working. If no one's listening, if no one's writing to us, then that's your real cue. So not to give everyone a participation badge, but everyone is kind of a winner. I mean, if you've been doing this, fuck you guys just celebrated your 50th show. I mean, that's amazing. So they talk about the slap save not being in a few years ago, Slam Tilt and Chronicles and Pinball Players Podcast and so many other great podcasts that didn't get named. I think that sucks. The challenge, though, is that, well, it celebrates what people are doing. But, yes, there is a feeling like it's kind of like the best picture, the Oscars, is that I think it undermines all the other pictures when you're like, well, there's only one. So everyone else is secondary. And really, that's not what it comes down to. This is, you know, we said it all the time. If you have an interest in pinball, I guarantee you can find a podcast that fits your personality. but you're not going to find one podcast that everybody. And the truth is, I bet you guys, and I bet everybody listening right now, probably listens to several of these. I have about eight on my phone. Yeah, but you're only listening to Pinball Profile because you're just listening to your own stuff, right? Well, okay, maybe, yeah. Well, we were so upset, Scott and I actually sat down. We're going to quadruple down this year. We're going to try to make sure we're on every single thing of the Twippy. So not only we're doing podcasts now, we're going to do YouTube streaming, and we've already got investment since, you know, Deep Roots in Utah. We're talking about doing Loser Kid Pinball so that we can get into the pinball divisions as well because it's all about the Twippy, you know. Okay, do you know what I want? I want the best pinball tattoo award because I'm going to get Twippy on my back. Okay. There should be a best merchandise one. You guys would win that. Yeah, for sure. But look, it comes back to what you feel is your measure of success. And this is what Jeff and I have said. We are not anti-TWIPI or anti-PIA. We're absolutely pro-reach around. Fucking right we are.
    45:21
    But it's what your measure of success is. And we've often said that we love your podcast. We do. But as Jeff said, it's about how much interaction you have, how much fun you have doing the show. and whether you put out a podcast, you listen to it or you don't, and you say to yourself, I've done a good product. Be careful now, Mark. You don't want to get any emails saying you're kissing our ass too much.
    45:45
    Hey, actually, part of that email also said we should drink more. We're too stiff. But, no, I really appreciate what you guys said last week, or I guess it's been fortnightly now. When you were talking about when you boil down award shows, what does it benefit? and I mean, if you really boil down the Twippies, it's to get clicks to This Week in Pinball, which is fantastic. Jeff has made a wonderful website and everything he's doing is to help better that website. That's why we had the Pinball Promoters Database. That's why we have all those tools he's put on there. But when it does come down to it, the Twippies is a device to help This Week in Pinball, which is awesome. It doesn't validate our podcast if we make this list or not. I mean, like you guys were saying, I was kind of shocked. we had a major manufacturer reach out to us this year and asked us to please interview them about their product because they felt like it would help their marketing. Yeah, but it was home pin.
    46:45
    You know, Thunderbirds 2 is coming out though. Okay. All right. Fine. But I think that's a good key to if you're doing something right or not. If the pinball community wants to reach out to you, whether it be just people in the community, if it's manufacturers, if it's whatever it may be, if people are reaching out and talking to you, then I think you're doing something right. Actually, I would say the best benefit I've even had from this podcast is being able to be interconnected with other people who have similar interests. And so to be able to talk to people in Canada, in Australia, you know, just everywhere that have similar interests, it feels like I have this more interconnectivity with the pinball industry. and as a fan it makes me feel like I enjoy it a lot more because I get to talk to people about what their take is and what they like and there are a lot of times I'm surprised when I like a game and they don't or vice versa or either that or they are in love with Avatar I just don't understand it but I still support them. Let me be honest too it's about the sponsorships right? I was going to say it's about the sponsorships I mean Martin Jeff you guys you know how it is we do. I mean we want to give a shout out to Flippin Out because you know because we have to, I guess. Wow. Listen, I don't mind sharing listeners with you, and I want to say all streamers, all pinball podcasters, when you go to different events, when these events start happening again, you're going to see how many fans you have, and you have a lot because you certainly have a voice every single week. But back the fuck off when it comes to sponsors, all right? Those are ours. We've got the lock on those.
    48:21
    We have a lock style we need to maintain now. It's a lifestyle brand, absolutely. You know, I want to announce our new sponsor, though. Diet Pepsi is now sponsoring Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. Bullshit. Yeah. Diet Pepsi, it's all about, you know, because we can't really get Diet Coke because that's a little more expensive, but Diet Pepsi is all in. Well, just kiss all your Atlanta people goodbye, where all the big Coke factories are. So well done, Loser Kid. Wow. You know, it's partitioned. How dare you hate Georgia after what's gone on this month? We are a divided house. My wife and I, I actually am a Pepsi drinker and she's a Coke drinker. And we've been in counseling. We've been married for about 11 years and we're still trying to get over that hump. But it's still just hard. It's a civil war in our house. We cannot agree to disagree. Marty, can you teach these guys something about drinking?
    49:16
    There's a thing called a losing battle and I wouldn't even try. you know and one of the things that I've gained really much appreciation for is the respect that we've I don't want to say earned but we've we've gotten over this last two years I mean the people that reach out to us that are you know podcasters like yourself or reach around you know reach around to us but but it's cool to to wake up and to chit chat with some of the you know some of the well-known names in the podcasting and in the in the pinball industry and it's really cool to have that kind of respect too. Do you find, as podcasters, you are now privy to information that you wouldn't have had just as a listener? You know, actually, Josh gets all the information. I actually really don't get people reaching out and telling me things, which I actually kind of like because when Avengers came out, I had absolutely no clue that it was Avengers. I thought it was going to be Godzilla like everybody else thought. We thought it was Queen, if you remember. true. But I bring that up because I'm like you, Scott. I've said it many times. I can't help but have people just send me information and it therefore loses the surprise when something does come out and that's... I won't say, you know, oh, it's such a terrible thing and our lives are miserable because people are feeding us information, but it just kind of changes your perspective on pinball and that's kind of my question to you is two years on after the podcast started, do you have a different perspective on the hobby? Absolutely, yes. But I'll let Josh start first. Josh, you're the one who started this ball. Go ahead. Yes, I've seen a different perspective of the hobby because of starting this. I think that I've seen a way better side. I think there's a cooler side. I haven't got a ton of information. Like, even if I did, I'll pull a Martin here. Even if I did, I wouldn't share it, right? Yeah, yeah. Contact Josh on Facebook. Yeah. But I think there's also been a side that has been kind of dramatic, to say the least. I think it spills over to the public every once in a while, but I think that's the only thing that I haven't had so much fun with. I have grown a new appreciation over the last two years because when we've talked to manufacturers, we've talked to people on the development team, and as fans, we always have the, well, why did they do that? That was stupid. Or why didn't they include this? Or why didn't they do that? and getting the perspective from the manufacturers gives me a little more appreciation for why they've made some of the decisions. I mean, obviously a lot of the decisions are internal, and we don't get the background to why everything was done. However, I think it gains an appreciation that these are invested, passionate people in the hobby who are also in manufacturing, and they are going to work out things. And if they can do it, they will because they want a good product. They want to be able to say, yes, we're putting out the best possible product. And so as fans, it's a little easy for us to say, well, they should have done this or should have done that. But I understand that pinball is hard and they're trying to put out a reasonably priced competitive product. And over the years, it's amazing what they have done, even the last five years, how the industry has changed. I am shocked at how great a year 2020 was for the pinball manufacturers. All of them, every single one of them putting out the products. I mean, yes, we joke, and we probably joke maybe a little too much about Stranger Things. It's not as bad as I pretend it to be. Do I like it compared to everything else? No, but if you say Stranger Things is the worst game this year and you compare it to other years, that's a pretty good game. It's got great code and just changed again. They got the Demi-Gorgon Bomb, all that kind of stuff. If that's the worst, this would have been a good, good year for pinball. and I'm guessing because of things that have been elevated. You know, we saw what Spooky did with Rick and Morty and the assets there. Of course, Guns N' Roses, Jersey Jack Pinball and everything that was put into that game. I think we're going to see even a better year in 2021. It seems like they've been able to incubate and to put out an elevated product. It seems like we're at a new plateau. That's a lot of expectations for 2021, though. Sure, but okay, is that bad, though? Is that bad to say that people have had, even in this time when we've all been craving that pinball experience? And, you know, Stern, in the Gary Stern interview, they're over 5,000 behind, which is, you know, the interview was a while ago. But that just shows how the appetite for pinball has grown. And the worst thing is, I've heard this said before, the opposite of love is not hatred. It's apathy. And so you can tell that the people in pinball are excited and they have an appetite for what they're doing. As a manufacturer, I would find that completely stimulating and exciting that they are still waiting for what we're doing as opposed to, oh, okay, well, there's another game, whatever. Okay, so for me personally, and it comes back to the information that we get, what's really interesting is that I get people calling me, I get people messaging me all the time. Wouldn't go a week without somebody messaging me and saying, what's coming next? What do you know is coming from Stern? What's coming from Jersey Jack? What's coming from American Pinball, CCC, whatever? I, in my mind, Godzilla and Queen and Toy Story. There's three that I've got on my list. I've got five more.
    55:00
    I'm not saying anything. No, you're closer to it than I am. But I think for me personally, I know less about what's coming out than I ever have. I wish I could say the same because the last game that kind of surprised me is like, I didn't know that was coming, was Stranger Things. I had been given a hint about Rick and Morty. That was maybe around the same time. But everything else, I'm like, yeah, I didn't know what's coming and stuff. And I like the surprises too. I mean, I don't ask. I done interviews where people have said to me and I not saying anybody but they said do you want to know this and they all to a person can say I have said I don want to know because I do like the surprises I also discouraged when a new game comes out and the newest being Led Zeppelin, and it gets a day in the sunlight, and then everyone, especially on Pinside, is like, well, what's next? What's next? Like, that drives me nuts. I think it's the people that that machine's not for, because we're all looking for the next exciting machine. So if Led Zeppelin comes out and they say, well, I'm not into Led Zeppelin or bands. What's next? Because that's not for me. Yeah, I don't know. I guess the problem is the themes are how many people are going to buy a game? Let's just say even on a big game versus a small game, how many people are actually going to put their cold hard money down to buy it? Don't you want me to answer that? Five, 10, 15,000 million? A million. Okay, no, seriously. Like if Stern or Jersey, like how many, okay, If you are putting a guess on how many Guns N' Roses machines are going to be sold, how many would you think? 5,000. Okay. Wow, really? I think it's going to be one of their best-selling games for sure, no question. If it wasn't their best Wizard of Oz, it was not number one. Wizard of Oz was about 3,000, wasn't it? Yeah. So we'll see. It warrants selling well. It's a great game. I guess my point is how many people are interested in pinball and are playing pinball? and you're going to get a significantly more, like a higher number than 3,000 to 5,000 that even a successful title will beat. And so I guess I understand a little bit about why people will say, yeah, I like the game, but what is next? Because I'm not going to be buying it. And so the average player is not going to do these deep dives and rules. They're not going to go and stream Stranger Things for four hours because the average player They're not going to have access to this in their home, and they'll either try to play it on site or maybe go over to a buddy's house, but they're probably likely to get less than 50 games on any machine unless they're going to competition. And so I understand why people will say, well, I just want to see what's going on. I guess an example is I was gone over Christmas. However, my brother was staying in my house, and so I was really curious to see what he played because when he comes up, he plays. I asked him, because I love Avengers, I'm like, hey, what did you think of Avengers? He's like, I couldn't figure out what to do. And so that was kind of a clue to me that he was a very casual player. That game didn't speak to him, but he liked other games that I had. So I guess that's a very long way of saying I get it when people say, okay, I know that theme, I'm only barely scratching the surface, what is the next thing? Well, I guess probably an interesting, and this is for this week in pinball, if I haven't done this, because I'll admit I haven't seen them all, but you know how they do a poll each week that asks the question? I think probably the question really here is, how often do people buy a new inbox? Is it every three months? Is it once a year? Is it every two years? Because if it's every two years, that means there's one moment they're going to stop saying, what's next? For the remainder of the two years, they're going to be asking, what's next? Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I have a nice little collection, but this year is the first year I've bought, it just so happens to be three games, but I haven't bought any new in-box games in two years maybe, whenever Guardians came out. That's the last one. And your first time seeing LA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so Jeff and Martin, what are the things that push you over the top to say, I want to buy that game? And I know what Josh does because if it's Turtles, if they have a Turtles 1, 2, 3, 4, he's going to buy all those. So it's Fiend. Yeah. If it was an Aquabats, absolutely. So I don't say that. Aquabats is all over that one. It's themed for me, for the Zeppelin, obviously. The other ones, every other one, I have to see gameplay. There won't be another sight unseen game for me to ever buy. I want to see how it plays, how it shoots. I want to see what the code's like. I want the manufacturers to get the bugs out. I don't want the first one off the line. And I can name 100 games I would love to have before any new game because I have the experience of seeing what those games do. Some are still in production, some are not in production. I bought an Ali this year. That's obviously a 40-year-old Stern game, but it's a game I really enjoy. And I have to be familiar because that's a big purchase. That's big-ticket stuff. I know a lot of people that flip games quite a bit. I'm not comfortable doing it. I don't like the whole haggling thing back and forth. I don't like the physical moving of the things, but I do like the variety of switching up games. I would sort of answer it similar, and I would say for me it's theme, but I'll take it one step further. It's theme integration is what will put something over the line for me. I mean, the only game I think I've ever bought really sight unseen was Iron Maiden. Everything else, I've at least seen a screenshot or the press release to know that I've wanted it. If I'm lucky, I've been able to play it beforehand like Hobbit and Star Trek. So it could be themed, but if they drop the ball on the theme, and as far as theme integration goes, I still probably won't buy it. So that's mine. And how long are you going to be excited about a theme? Because I think we're all – I know it's frustrating that people – a new one comes out, but I think that's human nature. It's human nature to say, if I'm really excited about a theme, even if you do a deep dive for five days into it, I think you're going to say, okay, so what is coming down the pipeline? There's no theme other than obviously Zeppelin that you could throw out there that would make me go wow, I gotta have it. Nothing. It's all about gameplay for me. Okay. Josh, any things that you would buy Sight Unseen? Did Josh die? No, I'm here. I just he cut out for a second. I was saying Josh, are there any things that you would buy Sight Unseen? Obviously, we mentioned Aquabats. Well, honestly, I don't know if there is. Like, even Ninja Turtles, which is one of my go-to themes that I was dying to have, I still waited until I saw gameplay footage. And even then, I didn't go LE. I went pro based off the gameplay footage. And I'm very happy with my pro. Theme does do a lot for me. But I bought three new box and purchases of Sterns this year. And I bought a Jurassic Park, which I had already played multiple times and knew I wanted one in my house. And I guess Avengers, I saw the gameplay footage. It still took me a couple weeks before I decided to actually buy one. And so it does come down to, I don't know if there's ever a game that would ever come out, except for maybe Harry Potter. My son would hold me to the wall if I didn't buy that sight unseen. I guess it probably also comes down to whether you're an LE buyer or not. Because if you are an LE buyer, you have to pretty much buy sight unseen these days to get on the list. because a lot of them are selling out before they're actually even revealed. Yeah. Yeah, and I have many LEs. However, in some ways, I have to choose which LEs I'm going to buy because that's a big purchase. And a lot of times the LEs are the ones that I anticipate that I'll keep for a long time. So I bought Avengers LE because I did want everything. However, it was also riding heavily on Keith's designs that I really enjoy, and so I was willing to go in on that one. But yeah, the LEs, however, I feel that the LEs are going to be more selective for me in the future just because I don't know if I can continually purchase the LEs because if I need to buy a game, I have to sell a game. So it makes it a little easier to turn over a game maybe at a premium level just because an LE market, it does limit your field that you're going to sell to. And Jeff, you're saying there's no other theme out there that you would do the same thing again with? Led Zeppelin was just it for you? Horse crap. I know exactly which theme would be sight unseen for Jeff. Is it a movie? The Boys.
    64:03
    Yeah. No? No, you know what? I would love playing it. And the other one that would be close would be the band Rush, which I obviously love being Canadian. But I would still wait to see those being played if they're... Sorry, that's great. But no, there's nothing. The other movie I mentioned before is This is Spinal Tap. It's never going to happen, but no, can't happen. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy them. We're talking sight unseen. I'm talking I have to see how they play. I have to see what the code's like. I would... Now, I'm a huge Rush fan. I would have to buy a Rush machine, but it would really, that would be a hard decision for me whether or not I'd go LE or premium. Yeah, it depends what the difference between the pros and the premiums LEs are like because for me, if I had a choice, I would take the Led Zeppelin Pro artwork in a heartbeat, but I'm stuck with the powder blue and everything else that's in the LE that makes no sense to me. Who cares? I'm about what's inside the play field, the music that comes out. I like the LE Zeppelin artwork. I think it pops. I actually like it the most out of the other two. And what about Icarus on the back glass? I mean, that is total Led Zeppelin right there. Sure, but it's also on the side. It's also on the front. It's also on ten times on that game. I'm good, all right? It was a swan song label for less than half of their albums. It's not the defining Led Zeppelin image in my mind. The four symbols are more associated with Led Zeppelin. Yeah. You know, and I guess that's kind of it. Yeah. I'm going to say they totally phoned it in on the premium art in that it is, you're right. I don't know why I didn't see it before, but I see six different versions of the same picture. Yep. I don't need that. Once is great. The back glass is fine. Perfect. Even the back glass on the premiums, the LE is fine. Not all over everywhere. Just, I was excited to put the machine where when you walk down the stairs, it's the first thing you see. It's not going to be now because I'm not putting it there because there's nothing to see there. Yeah. But anyway, we shall see, boys. And I do want to say again, Loser Kid Podcast, we've both been on your show. We enjoyed it. We enjoyed listening to the show. I'm glad you guys still have fun. And, Scott, I'm actually super thrilled that you've been vaccinated. And I hope that for everybody. You know how much you guys mean to us since the second time you've been on, but this is kind of more formal. You were on our Pinberg Challenge show, and who knew that would be the last Pinberg Challenge? Oh, that hurts. That hurts. Yeah, I know. Okay, I will hold out hope, though. There is a light at the end of the tunnel that the desire is still there, and so I feel that they'll be able to cobble something together in the future when we're a little bit back to normal. I still have hope that there will be something that will take that place. Got to have the machines. Got to have the CDs. Got to have the space. It's a lot of factors. Who knows? You know what?
    67:08
    It's hope. That's basically what it is, and I think we will have enough interest to be able to have a grassroots support that we'll be able to figure something out. It may not be 1,000 players, but it should be something. It should be great. I know that Jeff just kind of said you know thanks for doing the loser kid stuff you've been on show but I really want to say thank you not only from Scott and I but like from the community you guys are outstanding gentlemen Jeff you are a gold standard in this pinball community and I know you're humble you're not going to say it no no say it in front of Marty he needs to know this but seriously pinball profile final round everything that you've done there's a reason people want to hear your voice you do it so well so professional like it's your day job. And Martin, you're fantastic as well. You've been really good to us. I appreciate, I still remember when we did the Willy Wonka episode on Head to Head and just having that all thrown together because we were trying to watch the videos. I mean, you guys, you are pushing this hobby in wonderful ways and you help when there's, when people take something too seriously, you guys help bring that back and remind us, hey, it's pinball, let's all have some fun. And we appreciate that. Well, I will add to that. Two words that would come up, classy and professional. And if there's one thing that we can all be united on, is that Josh Sharp's doing a terrible job as the IFPA president.
    68:39
    All kidding aside, the guy's doing a great job, and so is the IFPA women's board. I kid and stuff about Josh, but, no, he's done a really good job. Doesn't mean he's not a dick. Hold on, let's just separate the two, all right? Guys, thanks very much. I hope all is well in Utah. And you know what? This summer, let's hope for this summer we're going to see each other, okay? Sounds good. Yeah, I agree. Awesome. Thanks, guys. Really appreciate it. Yeah. Well, thank you for having us on. Yeah, you guys are the best. Always enjoy hanging out with you guys. There we go. Josh and Scott from Loser Kid Podcast. What did we learn, Jeff? Well, great, guys, as I mentioned earlier. But I'm a little worried here on final round. I'm just wondering if they brought down our cred. You know, we are up for certain awards and, you know. Oh, that is true. We did make the list, so. I know, but can we be perceived as charitable? Is that what it is? Yeah. I think we are the anti-vote. So, you know, people are voting for us because we said not to.
    69:40
    Don't worry. By the way, we're not going to win shit. I already found out, too. Even though we were nominated, I have already found out we are not going to win because the Grammys have been postponed. So we are not going to get spoken word. What words were you talking about? Oh, sorry.
    69:55
    Obviously not talking about the Grammys because you actually need to have music out, I believe. Hold on. We need to do some. Yes.
    70:06
    Just stand there, one ear on the headphone, just randomly moving some knobs. You're good at that. I'm a fine knob mover. Yeah, sure. That's me. Yeah. Well, we better get paid. What do you think? Yeah, I think. I mean, awards are one thing, but as we've said repeatedly on this show, it's the money that we're after. So we need sponsors. It's our sponsor of the week. Pinball players know how to pimp up their game room. Wall-to-wall machines, toppers, ultraviolet posters, bobbleheads. It's any collector's wet dream, but when it comes time to sell your home, you have to remember that most buyers aren't 12-year-old boys. That's where we come in and save the day. Add value to your real estate with the final round home stages. Here's some of the simple things we'll do to boost your curbside appeal. Plant some flowers, wash the windows, mow the lawn. Remove any police tape or chalk outlines. Then when your potential buyer enters your home, it's important to get rid of any clutter. Boxers, extra furniture, toys, Led Zeppelin albums. Or recent tournament championship trophies. Oh good, you don't have any. Tell us, Marty May, what else should be done? A new homeowner wants to imagine this place as a fresh start, so they might not see past some of your own personal tastes like, oh, I don't know, a swing with straps in the bedroom? Or a young woman and a dog named Precious inside a well in the basement? So, once everything is cleaned, it's time for the final exam to make sure your house is spotless. White glove test? No. The final round home stages are so confident of making your place sparkle that we will even bring out the black light test, just like they do on CSI. Holy shit, there's tears everywhere. Is it a mayonnaise truck explode? Why the fuck did we agree to stage this place? I don't know. Ryan C is your friend. Let's burn the place down and get the insurance money.
    72:03
    So, Jeff, did you see that there's been an overrated pinball list out in the media? I did, which is very brave to do. I mean, we are going to do that in February here on this program, but we are chicken shit. We're going to let you pick the overrated games, do a big battle royale. We aren't going to put our names to calling a game like Stranger Things shit. Oh, wait a minute. We did.
    72:27
    No, we did. Straight down the middle, those great guys, Greg and Zach, did a video. They did the most underrated, and they did the most overrated, which I thought, okay, this is going to be good. Zach sells Matt Flippin' Out. We legally have to mention that as a part of the TPN. TPN, correct. They came out with their list, and I know you saw it. What did you think? Well, let's go through the list if we can. So at number 10, they had Kingpin. Do you think Kingpin is overrated? I think it's kind of that game you really, really wanted to see. I think it's unique because of the fishtails-like boat action, but with spinners. But is it worth the money it gathers? Probably not. So yeah, it has to be overrated. Yeah, I think it's a good game. And I think that's the point of this list. And Greg and Zach were also saying, I actually really like this game, but it is overrated. I think Kingpin is a good game. It doesn't need to be as coveted as it is. So, number nine, we had Family Guy slash Shrek, because they obviously had to relabel it. What do you think of Family Guy? Jesus, the one that stood out to me, maybe two or three games but this was one of them I went, no, I can't agree with that I think it's a great game, I think it's I've never heard anybody really praise it to any extent, I like Family Guy I think it's funny, some of the best call outs ever Raymond Davidson absolutely loves this game and he says that we are all idiots if we don't like it, I may be paraphrasing I think it is not a good game and I would agree, no I don't like it at all I think rules wise it's a bit burr It's a bit clunky-fest with that beer can. The little mini pinball is fine. It's just a bit of a novelty. No, don't like it. Okay. So a little split there. We are split. Safecracker was the next one on there. I got to agree. It's a novelty game. If it goes through anything ridiculous, I don't get it. I don't like the timed aspects. You can actually just play that game and have one ball. That's it. No, no, no, no. That's not pinball for me. So I'm not a big Safecracker fan. I really, really like Safecracker, but it's overrated, it's not that good it is, as you say, it's a bit of a novelty game, but it's fun to play it's just, yeah, don't need it in my life the next one was probably for me the most controversial because it's Whitewater at number 7, and people love that game, so to say it's overrated yeah, I think they're going to get hate mail for that one. That's the one that stood out for me, that and the next one, but Whitewater, Dennis Norman is now with American Pinball. He's been everywhere. He's got a lot of name tags, as they say in the business. But he has made a great game in Whitewater. And to me, that will go down as one of his three best. But no, I'm going to disagree on that one. I like that game a lot.
    75:26
    I'm going to say I think it's slightly overrated. I loved it when it came out. But then when I got back into pinball and started playing it again, And I'm like, yeah, okay, it's not as good as I remember. It's good. I think it's slightly overrated. But not anywhere near as overrated as the next game. Really? Really. I was shocked that Zach put this one on because he sells it. And it is the Stern Batman 66 game. To me, I think this is a spectacular game.
    76:00
    Maybe one of the best games. And I'll say it. I would have a hard time finding 20 games better than this. That being said, it's tough for me to call this one overrated. Great rules, incredible visuals, lots of assets. It doesn't belong on this list. Except for the price. It does for me. I don't get this game at all. I don't mind the layout. I was a fan of the Dark Knight's layout already, and I think this is okay. I think the build quality is a bit iffy. I think the carousel is a bit meh. I don't like the rules. I know everybody loves the rules. I really don't. Love the art. Really love the art. To me, it's Franchi's best. Yeah, it's a beautiful, beautiful game. But no, I think it is overrated. There you go. Okay, we're split there. Elvira and the Party Monsters. I didn't know this was overrated. I didn't know it was overrated either. It's not that great a game. I don't think it's aged all that well. Yeah. I kind of just looked at that at number five and just went, Yeah. Okay. It's a bit overrated, but it's not really on my radar to consider it either over or underrated. I will say this. I will say all three Elvira titles are overrated when it comes to the price of the games. Because of the brand, you know, you're paying a little bit more for that. But as far as the gameplay, yeah, there's not much to it. One of those Seren Roms really would help on that game because of multiple player games. somebody walking in to spell Elvira after you built it up. That's a death blow if you're playing in match play, I'll tell you that. The next one's an interesting one because in number four we've got Spirit from Gottlieb and I kind of just went, oh, really? And then I thought about it. It is a... I love the look of this game. I've always loved it. I wanted to own a Spirit for the longest time. But I did play it a couple of years ago and I kind of went, oh. even though it's kind of got a really funky, weird sort of layout where shots lead into other sections. It's probably got four different sections, upper playfield, all that kind of stuff. It's really actually not that fun to play is its problem. Really?
    78:13
    I still want one, but... Again, when I think of overrated and underrated, is this high up in the Pinside rankings, Spirit? 145 at the last time I got a count. Just so you know, Pinside Top 100 is right down at the moment, so I can't see what it currently is, but a couple of weeks ago it was sitting at 145. Okay. Yeah, I don't think that's high enough to be overrated. Yeah, it's where it maybe should be, right about there. Yeah. That was an interesting one. I was kind of surprised that that was on the list, but I kind of agree with what they're saying. It's probably because it goes for a lot of money. It looks beautiful. I love the sound.
    78:53
    If it goes for a lot of money, then that's the case for it being overrated. Okay, I'll give you that. Well, then no greater case than the next one, which is number three, which is Big Bang Bar. Can't disagree there. I mean, it's a beautiful game. It's fun to play, but it's not worth what it is. I guess it's worth what it is because there were so few of them. That's it. Yeah, correct. It is absolutely overrated when you look at the price, because I think it's still getting 30 grand. What? Yeah, well, that's Australian dollars. Number two. In fact, number two and number one are somewhat controversial. Number two, Adam's Family. Overrated. Okay. Is that based on the fact that it's the greatest selling game of its era? I agree. I really, you know, I don't like Adam's Family at all. And so many people love it and say it's their favorite game of all time. I do not agree. I think it is absolutely overrated. It's a simple tournament game. Hit the chair, hit the ramp. Tour the mansion, game over. That's it. Multi-ball is also a help too. And the way the chair drops the ball out and you can just dead flip it over to the right flipper, it's pretty choppy. Yeah. Look, I really didn't like it that much even before I knew of the tournament strategy. It's just never been a game that I like. Love the theme. love the theme integration, just don't have fun playing it. I don't like the power that happens during seance and I guess multiball as well. I love that little flipper at the bottom of the left hand that shoots into the swamp. The thing flips, yeah. I think that's very, very cool. I like that the hand comes out. That was pretty awesome back in the day. Yep. As I said, theme integration, absolutely sensational. Call it spectacular. Yep. All right. Don't like playing it. I had never thought of this game as overrated for the number one game, but once I saw it on the list, I had to think about it for a second. Absolutely the number one is Quicksilver from Stern Electronics. I have tried to buy so many Quicksilvers and lost out because they go for ridiculous prices and you always get outbid. I think Chuck Webster famously sold one for, I don't remember the number, but let's say $8,000 American dollars. I'm not far off. I think it was somewhere around there. And I was like, what, really? if someone's willing to buy it, I guess that's what it's worth. But it's not worth $8,000. No, it's not. It's not that good a game. It is enjoyable, but I think that the reverence that it gets is not called for. I don't think it's that good. It is ugly as hell, no question about it. I love the rules. I do enjoy the rules of that game a lot. But you can get probably Stargazer for less than a Quicksilver, which I don't seem to understand. Stargazers, a much better game. Hi, Kate Martin. Yeah, I agree. I don't get Cook Silver. Interesting list. Now, how will that compare to when we do the list in February? And again, we're going to be taking votes. We're going to get through the reach-arounds next show, and then we'll open up our overrated battle royale. So are you not going to give your overrated? I've got my list of overrated games right now. I don't. I mean, if you want to hold off, or do you want to do it now? What are people listening right now thinking? Do it. Don't. Save it. Do it. They would want to know for sure. I'm going to save mine so we'll do a compromise. You can give us yours. Okay. I have to think about it. I really do have to think about it. Okay. I will give you my honorable mentions are Adam's Family and Quicksilver. Because they're in their list, I took them out of my list so I could have another 10. Now, I do know that when we do ours, we said we were not going to allow any that were still in production because we don't want to hurt the sales of a game. Sure, that's correct. So does your list follow that guideline? Yes, absolutely it does. Okay, go for it. Number 10, The Shadow. Jesse Jade is coming over to your house right now. Look out! Molotov cocktail in hand. You're a dead man. Well, at the time of me pulling this list, it's sitting at number 39 on the Pinside Top 100. It is not that good. Not that good at all. Get through the list quick, because I don't want to hear you get the door smashed in. Hurry up, go on, go on. Yeah, it's going to happen. Oh, wait a minute, we're not live. That's right. Okay. Number nine, No Good Gophers. I will give you a thumbs up on that one for sure Jeez how many of these are going to be Lawler games Some of them will be Number eight is Cactus Canyon Wow see That doesn technically count as an in game It might in a few weeks, but it'll also be a different game, too. If they give a wizard mode, that's a different game. Okay, go on. Number seven, Whirlwind. I've been saying that for years.
    83:42
    Keith Elwin loves that game. All my friends love that game. I like the game. Do I think it's overrated? Fuck yes! Yeah. I loved it when it came out. I just don't think it's aged well, and I don't like playing it now. And it's sitting at 54. Sorry. There are a lot of games below that that are better than Whirlwind. Okay. But there are a lot of games in that era that are worse than Whirlwind. Sure. We're talking about overrated. Is Whirlwind the cat's ass here? Is that what we're talking about? Yeah, it's not. It's not. It's not that good. Great for its day. Yep, but not now. The next one I know, we could probably spend an hour on this. This is going to be the Led Zeppelin DJ Wars again. No, no. Spider-Man from Stern.
    84:29
    I know because we've already had this conversation. It's currently sitting at number 20. It is nowhere near that good. Can't disagree. It's not the 20th best game. I'll give you that. It's a great game. It's not. Okay, what are Steve Ritchie's best games in the last 15 years? I don't want to talk about, you know, the Black Knight days and stuff like that. In his last 15 years, you'd say probably Star Trek number one and number two. No, no. No way. Spider-Man's way better than Game of Thrones. No, it's not. Game of Thrones is better. Go on. What else is better? Some might agree or disagree. I'm going to disagree. Thunderbirds is better than Spider-Man. Fuck, Marty. You know, it's still voting season. We don't want people trying to... What do you think? Thunderbirds is better. Jeez. Scott! Josh! Come back! I need a host! Josh! Scott!
    85:17
    I don't get why people like Spider-Man. I think people really like the theme. I think he improved the layout with Star Trek. I don't like the rules. It's really my main gripe with Spider-Man. Wow. Wasn't that Lyman who did that? Yeah, fine. I don't care who did it. Yeah, terrible call-outs too. Just ridiculous. I mean, the vault is so much better. No, it's not. It's absolutely not. They didn't need to do the vault. The call-outs of the original... Now, why do you think they needed to do the vault? Because maybe it's a popular game and it sells really well. And they saw how many were selling on the used game markets and thought, we can do this again. We can do a comic book version. Sure. So, it's not going to help my case when I go to my number two, which is Medieval Madness. So, let's go to number five, which is Scared Stiff. I agree. Yeah. It's way over. It's a fun game, but it's way overrated. I love the theme. I love the call-outs. I love... It's just... You play the game once, and it's like, okay, I've seen all I need to see. My number four is going to be quite controversial as well, but those people that know me will not be surprised by this. Indiana Jones, The Pinball Adventure. Yep. It's overpriced, so in that sense, it's overrated. Thank you. It's currently sitting at number 15. No. Sorry. Number three... I like it. Yeah, I used to like it. I don't get it now. So, don't like Spider-Man. don't like Indiana Jones. So spiders and snakes you're not a big fan of and you live in Australia where every freaking creature... I'm sorry. I'm confused. Obviously, that's why you get my hate because there's constantly snakes and spiders. Ah. Got it. Yeah, you got it. Number three, Star Trek The Next Generation. Sitting at 19. No. Is it really? No, no. Not a chance. You know, a lot of people will say, oh, the game breaks. Steve Ritchie himself, I was with him one time and someone was talking about, I've got Star Trek The Next Generation and he said, does it work?
    87:11
    I was like, oh, fuck. Exactly. That aside, let's assume the game works and stuff. Yeah, there's some flaws in that game. But it's a game, again, I'm thinking of my good friend Julie Dorsey, who's just a massive Trekkie fan, and her license plate, I think, says Janeway. Oh, there you go. Now you can find her on the streets. If you're a Star Trek fan, that's probably a dream game for you, especially the next generation. It's just like, you know, I don't know, somebody who buys a Led Zeppelin, At least they'd understand. Yeah, totally understood. I am a massive Star Trek fan, as you know. Oh, I didn't know. Yeah, oh my God, of course I am. Well, I knew you liked the game. I didn't know you were an actual Star Trek fan. So I am. So this is what I've always said. I'm not a Trekkie, I'm a Trekker. Because the difference is a Trekkie dresses up in cosplay. I don't. But I've seen every movie, every series repeatedly. So I'm a massive Star Trek fan. You just told me something I didn't know. Okay, there you go. I thought a Trekker was the old series or movie fans where the Trekkies were next-gen fans. No, I've made up Trekkers. That's just my way of saying, hey, I love Star Trek, but I don't wear the costumes. Again, brilliant, Marty. You know, we're halfway in voting season here. We were pending it. And you're shitting on all... We didn't have a chance anyway, let's be honest. Anyway, go on. No. Well, we're filling up with the next two. As I said before, number two for me, medieval madness. At the time of me pulling this data, it was number one on Pinside. No, no, don't think it's that good. Where is it on the list for you? To me, when we were talking about, I was talking to the guys of Poor Man's Pinball Podcast a couple of Mondays ago, and they were talking about what's the game of the 90s, and I think we all agreed it was Attack from Mars. And I said, the reason it's not medieval madness is because of the trolls. The Trolls really, to me, wrecked that. Not wrecked the game, but you'd love to time them out because they're just a pain in the ass. It's like the Ghostbusters, Solari Brothers, you know, just pains in the ass that brick a lot. And, okay, if it's not the number one game, and I'll give you that, where is it on the list? So it's my number two as far as overrated. No, no, no. If it's not number one on Pinside for you in the top 100, where about should it be? Oh, where should it be? are probably 50, 60. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down there. I'm dying to know what the 50 ahead of that are. Well, I can tell you a few of them. Let's go from 50 up. You've got Star Wars from Stern. Let's go start from 49.
    89:53
    Okay. You've got Bram Stoker's Dracula. It's better. Guardians of the Galaxy is better. Game of Thrones is better. Cactus Canyon. Well, I've already said that that's overrated, so let's not count that. I'm not going to count anything like Hot Wheels because it's overrated because it's within its first year. Funhouse is better. Creature from the Black Lagoon is better. No, it's not. Iron Man is better. Yep. Creature from the Black Lagoon is not fucking better than Medieval Madness. Yep, it is. Why? Because I prefer the theme. Well, let me just say, the reason why I don't like Medieval Madness is because I find it too grindy. I don't find I'm getting enough rewards early on. It's just, you start the game, it's like, oh, fuck, I've got to grind and grind and grind to get a decent score. There is no more grindier game than frickin' Creature. It's got the worst multiball, I believe, because it takes you forever to spell. Then you've got to get in the pops, then you've got to hit the snack bar, blah, blah, blah, blah. You've got to find the fucking thing before you start it. You've got to spell whatever the four letters are across the bottom. That's a grind. Wow. I'm glad you think so. I'm telling you what I think. I know. It's crazy, right? Oh. Well, call your jets. Save them for the number one. Uh-oh. My number one most overrated game ever. At the time of me pulling the list, it was number 28 on Pinside Top 100. We are talking the stern classic, The Simpsons Pinball Party. I'll give you that. I'm not going to go nuts about it. I thought, stop. You disappoint me. I was expecting a big fight. I was ready for it. I put this on my list and I'm like, oh, I can't wait for some fisticuffs and cups. No, the punches were thrown on medieval madness, all right, dude? Especially saying creature is better. Give me a break. Simpsons, I get the love-hate of it. It's two-stop and there's not a lot of flow in it. If you're a competition player, it's garage all day, get up to the couch, multi-ball, do it over and over again. I like the wizard mode aspect of Simpsons. I love the call-outs. I love the layout. But I can see how that game can turn a lot of people off. So I get it. Yeah, cool. There you go. Well, that was my list. Oh, I'm going to have to give you a good one. But it's not going to be on the next show because the next show is all about, really, why people listen to us. But we'll get to that in a second. The next show is about reach-arounds. We've got some action. I mean, this is a competition pinball podcast. That's all we talk about here on Final Round. That's why you've been listening for the last 11 months because there's been a lot of competitions. Well, there was one last week with yours truly. and you know, Marty, you know me very well our listeners know that I do not like to brag at all about any of my victories I keep them quiet, you have to really fight to get them out of me, but so tough to draw them out oh, you've got to work on it for months yeah, yeah, oh, it's coming up to the one year anniversary, by the way, of the Pinball Profile World Tour event in Australia, I wonder who won that, anyway anyway, there was a competition I was in recently, and I got the competition bug back. I got that adrenaline going. It was the ICR. 725 players from around the world played in these matches against each other. Maybe on the same machine, maybe not. Maybe finding some common ground. And they took the top 64, and oh yeah, I fell out of bed, made the top 64. Hello! Bring on the victim. Oh, it's the best 2 out of 3 game? Shit, I better be on my A game. Oh, fuck, I screwed up. I lost. I did terrible. Congratulations, Vinny. You kicked my ass, and I was lucky to get one game out of you in the three, but it was fun, Marty. ICR. How did the format work for you? How did you get to play somebody? Who is this Vinny? Who is Vinny? Oh, only the greatest player in the world. Vinny Bologna? Yep. I've never met him, but he did play very well on Lord of the Rings and No Fear. I didn't play either of those games, so what happened? This is really weird, and I think this is why I screwed up. So he played his first game on Lord of the Rings, then played No Fear, and then played Lord of the Rings. Three judges were watching him play his game on Discord and kind of gave them a rating. Let's say, I don't know what they did, but out of 10, you know, oh, he did this, he didn't do this. He made these kind of shots when he needed to. Oh, good stacking. And he did very well in all three games, quite honestly. So then I had to play my three games, not having Lord of the Rings and not having No Fear. I played the games I chose. I played World Cup Soccer. I absolutely stunk. I don't even know if I hit the left ramp once. That's how bad and nervous and whatever I was. The next game was Guardians of the Galaxy. Had a good game on there. They gave me the victory there. And then we played on the Simpsons pinball party, and I was debating, do I do that or fishtails? Well, fishtails I can blow up, but I can also brick and have the shittiest score ever. I thought, ah, you know what? Simpsons is a little more controlled. I can do that. Except, again, when I'm on ICR and three judges are watching me. Oh, by the way, the three judges, Adam Lefkoff, Kaylee George, and Josh Sharp. So those guys are amazing players. So I think I was more nervous because they were watching me. I was like, oh, I've got to play up to their level and stuff. Well, not Josh, but anyway, the other two. And I think that actually made me super nervous. And the fact that he played great. So Vinny gets to go on and play a guy you know very well who's a freaking awesome player, Joe Lemire. So, yeah, that should be a good match. So congratulations to everyone. 64 people got to go on, and they're doing another ICR right now. But, man, that's a lot of fun. You should try it. I should have. I think I kind of regret that I didn't, but I don't know. It just, I don't know. I have no excuse for my behavior. Oh, you're too busy cleaning out dirty grout from the slum where you live and getting rid of those, oh, God, pinball machines. If I have to fucking wipe down another tile, I'm going to fucking scream. Yeah. Anyway, move on. All right, what else do we have on the agenda? Last episode, we asked people to do reviews on the promoter's database. Did we get reviews, Jeff? Please let them be in French. Well, we got one that was kind of in French. Très bon. Oh, oui, oui. I think that's French. Yep. Escargot, Peugeot. Sure. So, yes, we did. Shall we read them out, Jeff? I would love to hear you read our reviews because they're pretty funny. Okay. So the first one is titled Du Fun, Du Fun, et Encore Du Fun. There you go, because we said do it in French. So Jeff and Martin do a great show that's an easy listening, low stress and full of fun and interesting people and has one of the best takes of what's going on in pinball land. Thank you, Neil M. Neil McCray, maybe. Who knows? Probably.
    96:39
    Next one. Until he hears what you said about medieval madness. Is there a delete button on that database? Screw it, we're going to lose these. Shit. No, see, Neil McRae often comes on my stream in chat, and we often disagree about tastes in pinball, so I totally understand that. Okay. The next one is titled Reach Around Award. I gave this podcast five stars, but don't get too excited, Jeff and Martin, because my scale goes to ten stars. I'm only reviewing this podcast to be eligible for a reach around. Stay tuned, because in 2021, I'm announcing the Consumer Awards in pinball. To be a voting member of CAP, you have to have purchased a new inbox in the calendar year making sure these awards show is super fun. That's from Scott V. Scott V, possibly from Ohio. He's a good streamer there. So thanks, Scott. A five out of ten. I'll take it. Thank you. Fortunately, we still get five stars. Next one is entertaining and informative. Dennis, I mean Jeff and Zach, I mean Martin, put on one of my favorite weekly, I mean fortnightly shows. Fortnightly? Like a bickering couple, they have a good ying and yang. When do we bicker? We don't. We don't ever disagree about music in particular. Nice review. Yeah, thank you for that. Next one. Best place for a quick reach around. Jeff and Marty are the authentic auditory unicorns. Annoying, creative, anti-pinball. These guys are boring, but they have lots of cool friends like Moppy and Pinside Petey. Only reason I listen to them is for the free groupie reach arounds, which can't be beat. Thanks, Jeff S.
    98:10
    I like it. That's good. Last one. Thank you, Marty and Jeff. Great show. Always good debates and banter. I appreciate all the hard work and weekly content. Thanks, guys. That's John M. Short and sweet, and they all qualify for our special reach-around, too, by the way. Absolutely. So, well done, guys. You're in the running. You, too, our valuable listener, can also be nominated for a reach-around if you just go to the promoter's database on This Week in Pinball and leave us a review. Any stars will do. We did get another review, but in the form of an email. to us, and I appreciate this email a lot. It came from Rick. Normally I enjoy your shows. Actually, I always enjoy the shows. What the fuck was that last 15 minutes of the show? Fucking pinball puppets? Couldn't turn that off quick enough. I guess it's best you saved it for last, but don't ever play that shit again. It's unfunny, childish, and a complete waste of everyone's time involved. Thank you so much, Rick. I wrote back to him. Rest assured, we will get back to our serious discussions of reach rounds, fake sponsors, drinking and abusing each guest that appears on our show. Absolutely. I just want to call out what he said at the end where he said it's unfunny, childish and a complete waste of everyone's time involved. That right there is a compliment. That's the final round pinball podcast right there. So forget the Papa Pals, that is us. So we're taking that as a compliment Rick. Thank you. Yeah, unfunny, childish and a complete waste of everyone's time. bingo hello if it wasn't for covid i'd have that tattooed on my back but we were talking about the reach arounds and they are available and people i'm telling you right now they are being purchased we've people have been reaching out saying are these actually real sorry guys they're real i am getting trophies made up i've got prototype trophies being made right now. You will get a real trophy. These things exist. They're fucking amazing how awesome these trophies are. And not everyone can get one, but everyone can buy one.
    100:22
    So please, go to our Facebook page. The details are there. The list is there. We should give some details on that because it's the last chance to buy these. In fact, you've only got a week to buy these. Some of these may have actually already sold out. Yes. actually, you're right about that. There is a five days available. One has already been sold. So what that is, is we promote the living shit out of you and whatever you want us to promote. You actually receive a trophy. Marty and I are going to create a video. Think of Cameo. Well, it's going to be Marty and I. You can use it for your promo thing. We're just going to talk up you like it's the best thing since sliced bread. I can think of a lot of things better than sliced bread. That's something that should be overrated. Sliced bread, big deal. You get a knife.
    101:06
    Anyway, five days. That's available. $55. What a bargain! Yeah, for five days? Oh, we're too cheap. Thank God no one has bought this yet. The Cape Your Mouth shot? Oh, if no one buys this, I'm going to go way overboard on this for the rest of final round. So the stupid Keep Your Mouth Shut award is, apparently I am never allowed to mention my pinball profile, world tour, win in Australia, or anything related to that again. You get a trophy for keeping my mouth shut. You know you're going to get my blood to boil. But that's okay. because... I want people to... I really, really desperately want someone to buy that just so you can shut the fuck up about that stupid fucking tournament that I didn't even compete in because if I had, I would have beaten you. So there you go. Or you just got scared and thought, oh, I'll just stream. I'm not in the competition anymore. It's okay. I'll just back away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll spend five hours setting up my stream as opposed to five minutes turning up and talking to people. Yeah.
    102:05
    I chose well. That's all I'm saying. You know what? Now that I think about it, you did actually choose really well. So don't buy that award. We should take that off the list because the one you should buy is the dry reach around, and that is where Marty is not allowed to drink on stream for one whole month. You have no idea. You'll get to see the shakes. You'll get to see the anger. You'll get to see him possibly punch Oz Erick or Dr. Curly Tech. You just don't know. he could just lose his shit by the dry reach around, all right? Absolutely. Comes with a trophy. The next one is the give it a try. So this is a special guest on the show. We have already sold one of these, I believe, Jeff. Yep. Oh, yeah. You get to be a special guest on our show, as we mentioned.
    102:48
    Most people pay us to come on the show, and a lot more than this. So this is a big discount. You get a trophy, and you get to be a guest on the show. 75 bucks. And again, why are we doing this? What kind of assholes would ask for money? I don't know. The same people ask for bits and subscriptions. How is it any different? We do none of that. There's no Patreon. This is your one chance to give back to people you think you love. And the next one, the top fan. It's still up for grabs. So this is, you get everything. You get a trophy. You get a custom picture. You get a trophy. You get a promo video. And you get our love forever. That's the one people should be going for. Oh, by the way, I know somebody who wants this really bad. And I think they're on holidays. So if they find out it's gone, too bad. First in wins. There's only one of them. That's right. Oh, the virtual one. This is fun. Again, think of Cameo. You know how you pay ridiculous amounts of money? I think you pay $400 for Lindsay Lohan to go, Hey, how's everyone doing? Hope you're having a good time. Happy New Year and love, hugs, and kisses. $400. That's ridiculous. Us, $50. And you get a Cameo video from Marty and I. And you tell us what to say. We'll do our best at saying it. We might add a few other things. Oh, it could be a lot of fun. The virtual reach around could be yours. Speaking of cameo, can I just say, to Oz Eric that you know, that streams on my channel, he got a cameo for his wife, and the cameo was Steve Wozniak. You know, hello, founder of Apple. Yep. I've got to tell you, it was one of the best cameos I've seen, because Eric gave a little bit of information about his wife. Steve just completely went off script and was just really relating to the situation and talking about their children and all this kind of stuff, it was actually, like, really heartfelt. Now, this guy, this guy doesn't need cameo money. In fact, he was doing it for charity. So he came on there and did a limited number of them for charity. So he could have literally just gone and said, Hi, I'm Steve Wozniak. You are Eric's wife. This is a cameo. Thank you. It was just really genuine and heartfelt. I don't know. I was just really impressed with somebody going to that effort. So, well done. Steve Woz, you're the best. Until you see the virtual reach around, we will do way better than a week's TV. Way better than that. Look out. We won't make as much money as him, but we will do a better cameo. Show us your bits. Now, you think of all the people out there streaming. There are a lot of streamers out there. And according to the other award shows, the so-called Pinball Industry Awards and the so-called Twippy Awards, you know, they've got awards for streamers. I think we all know who's going to win those. You don't have a chance of those. But you do at the Show Us Your Bits Mediocre Achievement in Streaming. I can't believe we're only doing this for $30. Yeah. What a deal. I know. Absolutely. And someone asked in stream last night, is there an award for the most mediocre stream viewer? I would put them into this category. Yes. You could get this award. Absolutely. And by the way, all these award winners are going to be on our next show. You get 60 seconds to thank your loved ones and receive your Reach Around award. Until it, of course, gets mailed. But, you know, we're talking virtually. And you'll be on the show. Wow! Absolutely. And then the one we talked about previously, the Talk a Good Game Reach Around, that is going to be for people that have left a review on the promoter's database. It will be randomly given to one of those people. So you've got one in five chance right now. Could be more if people stop giving us some more reviews. But, yeah, one person's going to get a trophy, the Talk of Good Game Reach Around. No cost. It's free. Good luck. The Reach Around's next show here on the final round, and it is going to be fantastic. And I feel sorry for the other shows. Let's be honest. The Pinball Industry Awards come out the next day. They have to follow us. Yeah. Good luck. Yeah. And then at least the Twippies are smart. They've separated. They're going, okay, we'll go in March. We'll stay a couple of months away so that people forget about how great the reach rounds were. Smart idea. Yep. They are very clever, those people behind the twippies. Hey, Marty, did you get your Stern book? I'm seeing people get theirs. You know, you're an ass. You know I asked for a refund. I think the question is, have I received my refund? Oh, did you? I actually didn't know that. Really? No, I didn't. Oh, no way.
    107:16
    Honestly, it's such a distant memory now. It was going to be something like, I don't know, I think maybe $150 US just to ship it to me. Okay. First class on Qantas? Probably. I just said, no thanks, you can keep your book. I've waited so many years for it. I'd pretty much written off the money, so I wasn't going to spend even more money on it. Do we know how much these cost? If you do, I don't. I don't know how much they cost. The books themselves? Yes. Well, because it was Kickstarter, it was on various tiers. So I don't know what it was for just the book only, but I bought a limited edition which had, I think, a Zombie Yeti signed poster and a T-shirt and something else. So mine was $250 US. Wow. How do you feel about that? You've done other Kickstarters. I know, and I have too, for charitable things and whatnot, reach-arounds. How do you feel about this? I was angry for some time. When I got my quote for the shipping, I just went, this is fucking bullshit. But you know me well enough to know I'll get angry and then I'll get over it very quickly. So my feelings right now are, whatever. If people have got the book and the reports that we're hearing is it's actually a quality book and I think, good on you. I have got other pinball coffee table type books. I have opened them once, maybe twice, and then they sit on a coffee table, funnily enough. So I didn't really need another one. I'd like to have the classic one from Roger Sharp. I mean, that one would be one I'd love to have. You're right. I've got a few that I've been able to stumble across. But, yeah, they're just sitting on a shelf like you had mentioned. Good point. But we have some friends that have received them, and, yeah, they look great. So, okay. And you say you get over things really quickly. Even if I remind you of them over and over again, like it won't bring up old memories and get you pissed off? No, no, I... If people constantly repeat things, that obviously is going to get me flamed up again. But if an event happens and then there's nothing after, I get over it quickly. What if it happened during the month in which you were dry and you weren't allowed to drink? Would that change things a little bit? I don't know, because I don't know what being sober is. so I don't know how I would react.
    109:48
    Okay. All right. Oh, it's going to be fun in the next show. The Reach Around Awards live. It is going to be spectacular. Some special guests and some trophies to be handed out. Are you looking forward to it? I am absolutely looking forward to it. I hope everybody else is. I am really looking forward to giving people reach arounds. Do you have your tuxedo? I do. Okay. I'm not going to wear it, though. Even better. okay that's it for this show first one in the year still around we've now done one in every month this is our first one in january we started in february wow okay 12 months old nearly almost seasoned veterans fuck see that's the kind of stuff that's gonna get me fucking pissed off if you keep bringing up seasoned veterans when they're not seasoned veterans right you know But if you said it once, I wouldn't think about it after we stopped recording. But bring it up, it's going to fucking get me just as riled up. Oh, do we have to end now? Because I could bring it in another fortnight, as they say. Marty, where can people reach us? People can reach us at finalroundpinball at gmail.com, finalroundpin on Twitter, finalroundpinballpodcast on Instagram, and finalroundpinball on Facebook. Sounds like a plan. We'll do this in another fortnight. Thanks, Marty. Thank you very much, Jeff. Thanks, everybody. We reach around in two weeks.