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The Pinball Show Ep 81: Entering A New Pinball Era: Afterlife

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 35m·analyzed·Nov 22, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Stern faces $30M backorders while adding 25 distributors; Back to the Future LE rumored with Keith Elwin.

Summary

The Pinball Show Episode 81 covers a Godzilla roar contest winner announcement, discusses major Stern Pinball supply chain and distributor expansion challenges (25 new dealers despite $30M+ backorders), reports on a Back to the Future Super LE rumor with Keith Elwin designing, and provides manufacturer updates from Chicago Gaming (Cactus Canyon pricing concerns), Jersey Jack (Pirates of the Caribbean code update), and American Pinball. The episode emphasizes growing production constraints and licensing deadlines squeezing end-of-year releases.

Key Claims

  • Stern Pinball has $30M+ in backorders while planning to add 25 new U.S. distributors

    medium confidence · Craig Bobby report; Zach expresses skepticism about sourcing and accuracy

  • Back to the Future Super LE is coming to Stern Pinball in August 2022, designed by Keith Elwin (not George Gomez), via partnership with Joe Kamenkow

    low confidence · Craig Bobby's rumor report; described as 'hottest rumor this week'; no official confirmation

  • Cactus Canyon Continued will be a one-and-done Lyman Sheets software release, possibly including additional topper modes

    medium confidence · Matt Morrison citing Josh Sharp interview on Loser Kid Pinball podcast

  • Pirates of the Caribbean is receiving a major beta code update with character-switching mechanics and rule changes

    high confidence · Ken Rudberg official Jersey Jack update; currently in open beta

  • Most Stern licenses expiring at end of Q4 2021 (Batman, Stranger Things, Beatles Gold, Iron Man Vault), with no 2022 reproduction plans

    high confidence · Zach's dealer commentary citing official production schedules

  • Stern's 2022 production strategy will shift to longer runs of fewer games rather than frequent line shifts

    medium confidence · Zach citing previous episode information and distributor conversations

  • Keith Elwin may become permanently locked behind 'Super LE' premium pricing (limening effect)

    low confidence · Craig Bobby speculation comparing to Cactus Canyon/Lyman Sheets situation

  • American Pinball's Michael Grant has moved to Stern Pinball; Steve Bowden is new hire handling sales, marketing, and game development

    high confidence · Brian Kosner official update from American Pinball sources

Notable Quotes

  • “Stern now seems to be leaving a growing number of customers and distributors standing in line waiting as supply chain delays continue to bring trouble to Stern's pinball paradise.”

    Craig Bobby @ News segment — Encapsulates the core tension: record backorders ($30M+) while expanding distributor network

  • “If anything, they should be looking at like dropping 25% of their distributor network for underperformance...If I were at Stern, I would be looking at that.”

    Zach @ Analysis section — Critical take on Stern's distributor strategy; suggests over-expansion is counterproductive

  • “Could this be the limening of Keith Elwin behind a high-dollar Super Ellie paywall forever?”

    Craig Bobby @ Back to the Future rumor — Introduces new pejorative term 'limening' for premium pricing lock-in strategy

  • “This is probably the most authentic because Godzilla roars are often extremely long.”

    Dennis @ Godzilla roar contest segment — Technical observation about Godzilla roar characteristics; explains contest winner selection

  • “When Stern Pinball listeners creating more pinball machines, producing more pinball machines than they ever have, I can't say that they are doing bad. They're growing that back order list to record numbers.”

    Zach @ Production analysis — Frames Stern's production boom as simultaneously successful and problematic from consumer perspective

  • “It's frustrating for me as a dealer it's frustrating for me as a hobbyist it was frustrating for a buyer who's told that they ordered the first month of a game release and they're still sitting waiting”

    Zach @ Production analysis — Personal testimony of backorder impact across multiple stakeholder groups

  • “So we're rolling a big backorder list for most of the larger dealers, especially for the entirety of 2022.”

    Zach @ 2022 forecast — Predicts backorder problem will persist through 2022

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyCraig BobbypersonZachpersonDennispersonKeith ElwinpersonJoe KamenkowpersonGeorge GomezpersonChicago Gaming CompanycompanyLyman Sheets

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern's strategy of expanding distributor network during backorder crisis directly contradicts dealer needs; oversupply of distributors competing for rationed inventory

    high · Zach's critical commentary: adding 25 dealers will worsen rationing problem; suggests 25% distributor reduction for underperformance instead; aligns with multiple dealer frustrations

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern expanding distributor network by 25 dealers despite $30M+ backorder crisis; dealer testimony indicates unfulfilled allocations continuing into 2022

    medium · Craig Bobby report claims 25 new U.S. distributors planned; Zach expresses skepticism on sourcing but confirms as dealer that backorder fulfillment is inadequate for Q4 2021 and rolling into 2022

  • ?

    event_signal: Godzilla roar contest completion with winner announcement; indicates ongoing community engagement content strategy for The Pinball Show

    high · Extended segment with 5 contest submissions evaluated; winner (submission #5, young child) to receive Stern Godzilla banner from Flippin' Out Pinball inventory

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Multiple major licenses expiring end of Q4 2021 (Batman, Stranger Things, Beatles Gold, Iron Man Vault); final runs being squeezed out with small allocations

    high · Zach provides detailed production schedule citing license expirations and confirms no 2022 reproduction plans for these titles

  • $

    market_signal: American Pinball experiencing renewed interest in Valhalla correlating with revival of interest in older titles (Houdini, Oktoberfest, Hot Wheels)

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.287

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. This week on The Pinball Show, Dennis and I award one lucky winner a Stern Godzilla banner. We also experienced Dennis' love loss for innocent children, my cultural sophistication, a major shift in the pinball landscape. Again, Stern Pinball Production Scheduling Updates, our forecasts for 2022 market alterations, and how this may affect you. We talked this week about the progression of Godzilla, Craig Bobby's wild sources regarding Kapow Pinball not needing any roads, the new pinball term limening, Chicago pinball's fickle nature, Ken Rudberg reporting a Pirates of the Caribbean code update, Rudy getting a new hot dog, pinball market trends, and learning the difference between LPs and 45s. All of this and more on episode 81 of Pinball's Favorite Podcast.
1:18
Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality.
1:39
It's episode 81 and it's the Pinball Show with Zach and Dennis. Dennis, how are you? I'm fine. My lungs aren't the ones full of fluid. Oh, and pus. I did a little research on that because I've got a cold listener. I don't know if it's cold, sinus infection, flu. I don't know what it was. It wasn't the vid. I did a test. It wasn't the vid. Maybe the test was wrong. Yeah.
2:02
A little false negative. Who knows? It is flu season, though. My poor nose, if that's the case. God.
person
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
American Pinballcompany
Michael Grantperson
Steve Bowdenperson
Back to the Futuregame
Godzillagame
Pirates of the Caribbeangame
Cactus Canyon Continuedgame
Zombie Yetiperson
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Seth Davisperson

medium · Steve Bowden commentary that Valhalla interest driving backlog interest in other AP titles

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Michael Grant (American Pinball sales/marketing) moved to Stern Pinball; Steve Bowden hired at American Pinball for sales, marketing, and game development roles

    high · Brian Kosner official update from American Pinball; Grant's movement to Stern represents talent migration to larger manufacturer

  • $

    market_signal: Premium pricing lock-in strategy ('limening') emerging: Cactus Canyon code updates locked behind premium tier; potential Keith Elwin Super LE precedent for designer exclusivity

    medium · Craig Bobby introduces 'limening' term referencing Chicago Gaming's Cactus Canyon model; speculates whether Keith Elwin may become permanently behind Super LE paywall

  • ?

    product_strategy: Jersey Jack Pirates of the Caribbean receiving major character-switching code update in open beta; full release imminent

    high · Ken Rudberg official update; beta testing through Telegram with emphasis on active feedback; scorebit integration and achievements included

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Back to the Future Super LE coming August 2022 with Keith Elwin design (not George Gomez); partnered through Joe Kamenkow (Beatles/Batman 66 licensor)

    low · Craig Bobby cites 'hottest rumor this week' from multiple pieced sources; explicitly unconfirmed; Zach notes Craig is sourcing like undercover operative

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Severe backorder crisis (conservatively $30M+) while maintaining rapid new release schedule; 2022 production will be constrained

    high · Zach confirms distributor backorder lists are large and mostly unfulfilled; Stern shifting to longer production runs per title (fewer games, more units per game) to address crisis

    • 2:09
    Dipping into my brain. Oh. Mm-hmm. That doesn't feel good. But, yeah, if you guys hear me hacking, my apologies. My apologies. It's going to be an extra edited episode. Oh, I couldn't even do the Godzilla roar right now if I wanted to. No. I'm going to try it. Oh, God.
    2:27
    That was almost perfect. I think you've won a banner. Congratulations. Godzilla with COVID. Speaking of Godzilla, Dennis, we had that Godzilla banner giveaway, and I think it went over pretty well. Did we get like 30 submissions? Not 30. Well, then I guess it went okay. People are timid.
    2:46
    Yes. People are very timid. This is a passive hobby. A bunch of shy lizards out there. So we're going to play the submissions to you before we get into the news because they're a lot of fun. Some of them were video entries, which I appreciated as well. One of them was a bit irreverent. We'll discuss that. But overall, a lot of fun. I looked at the numbers last week and it's like one of our most highly listened to episodes. Well, that would be because there was no episode last week. So it was really two weeks worth of content. You know what I mean. No, I don't know. Okay, that's fair enough.
    3:22
    All right, so let's jump into what we're going to do here. We're going to play these audio cues for you, listener. And Dennis and I are going to pick our favorite. That favorite, hopefully we can come to an agreement, they will win a Stern Pinball Godzilla banner, artwork by Zombie Yeti, Jeremy Packer. And we do have those in stock now at Flippin' Out Pinball. This is a sponsored plug and support here. So thank you, Flippin' Out Pinball, which is really weird, because that is my business. Okay, let's play the first one here. And I'm not going to give names. I'm just going to play it. So this is number one. We'll call it my number then.
    3:57
    Oh no, it's got zero! Not too bad. I like that one. Yeah, the roar was decent, I'd say. Better than my roar. Well, he capped his decibels there, so he'll have people writing in, I assume. Well, it wasn't a goat, so it would be a new set of complaints. Let's go to the Godzilla, what they're calling a growl. A Godzilla growl. This is number two.
    4:25
    Godzilla! Okay, so by committee there. Yeah, yeah, it sounded like Godzilla, and then when he opened his mouth, kind of like how the xenomorphs from Alien have the little bitey tongue inside the bitey mouth. Yeah. This was like a Godzilla bitey mouth, and inside was a snarf. A couple snarfs in there. Yeah. Snarf, snarf, snarf. Snarf!
    4:49
    Okay, so what are we going, Dennis? One or two? We'll progressively go through here. I like that number two was so creative. I do like it. Number one was probably a better roar overall, though. More representation. I'm going to go number two on this one. I like the group effort. Well, I did like that the higher pitch does somewhat play off of the... How did they do the Godzilla original? I think it was like a cello. Oh, we're going to find out in our irreverent piece that I was... Oh, okay. All right. Well, I'm good with progressing number two forward. Okay. Number two is moving forward in the tournament bracket here. Snarf can continue. Goji roars. Number two is in the lead. Let's play number three.
    5:40
    Raaaaaah! Okay, that was a production. Yes. Okay. Multiple roars throughout the background, theme-appropriate background music. I liked it. I think that was really good. The last roar to just end that piece was a little subdued, almost like even Godzilla was getting tired of roaring. Yeah. Actually, my issue is by taking Bear McCreary's version of the Godzilla theme, I think they hid behind his music. Oh, really? Instead of really letting us appreciate the roars. And it is arguably the best iteration of that theme. So I actually would downgrade it for the fact that they used that as a crutch. Ouch. A crutched augmentation there. I love Brer McCreary's version of the Godzilla theme. But because of that, that's what I'm sitting there going, oh, I like this song. And then I'm not hearing a whole lot of roars. All right. So what are we going with there? I'd still choose two over three. We're still going Snarf Group Committee. Mm-hmm. Yep.
    7:21
    Man, it was good, though. Okay. I can agree with that. Yeah, bear is good. Onward, my friend, to the next submission. Now, this was a video submission, and it was a cutie patootie. It was a little baby sweetie that was doing it. Another crutch, a child crutch. Oh, man, but they're so precious. I don't like crutches. I was waiting for you to say, I don't like children.
    7:45
    Unless that child is standing in line for their parents, I don't really care what they're doing. They have one job. This is submission number four for the Godzilla roar contest.
    7:57
    Show me Godzilla. And what does he say? Good job. Okay, so more of a subdued silent roar. Yeah. It works, though, because the kid is so cute. There was stealthzilla. No, no, this was not a video contest.
    8:16
    Sorry. Sorry, kid. I'm actually going to give more credit here to the Godzilla at the end that Dad didn't even know was a Godzilla. Listen closely, listener, one more time, and you're going to hear a screaming kid in the background that sounds more like a Godzilla. You can't count that. And what does he say?
    8:38
    Good job. Yes, I heard it the first time. It's a great screaming child. Sadly, that was not the one that chose to enter. I just love the... Listen, submitter, that probably would have won you this contest, but you submitted it with this cutesy patooty at the beginning. I think the ringer was in the background there. You missed it. You're no Simon Cowell. I'm going to stay with the second submission. Yep, snarf.
    9:16
    Okay. Our last, I'm going to call it last real one. Our last real one. That implies there's a fake one. I just don't even know what we do with it. Just like anything that person submits, I just don't know what to do with. But nevertheless, we'll get to that in a minute. This is our last submission for the Godzilla Roar Contest. Again, oh man, poor child. This is a child. Why is this exploited children thing going on here? Because they know I've got a soft spot. Oh, God. Didn't they know that I was also going to be evaluating this? I know. Probably not. Okay. So this is, and I'll see if we can't get permission to maybe air some of these videos because it adds to it. But here's our last submission, submission number five. Dennis, you're just going to love this one. It's probably my favorite. Yay. I can do it with a ladder. Okay. All right, go. Go.
    10:13
    I mean, come on, Dennis. That actually was really good. Yes, she got the rasp in there because that was just her child lungs at full capacity. She basically gave up one year of her life to achieve that sound. That's right. So I respect the commitment. I do, too. And what I love about this one is it annoyed me because that's what I hear in my house all day long is that type of screaming. I don't even know if it was a Godzilla scream, but kids screaming. I've got two girls and the worst, the worst. I'm actually going to give the nod here for myself. I'm going to go here. I like the commitment, the full range, too, and how long she was able to pull. Yeah, that's the other thing. That's probably the most authentic because Godzilla roars are often extremely long. Oh, I didn't know that. Or at least sometimes when projecting true Zilla rage. Okay.
    11:11
    Well, this little girl, I mean, you should see the veins popping in her little neck. Help me, don't do it off-vision. Oh, sorry. It's not appropriate. I must only embrace the sound But I would agree Number five is alive Whoa Number five is alive That's a Short Circuit reference Okay Give me Short Circuit two though Over Short Circuit one I know Are we going to crown a winner Before we can crown a winner We got to go to this other piece We got to hear the fake one This other piece was odd Because it was done on a podcast This podcast is called Insanity Falls the best pinball podcast in the world someday. It's by Dr. Dude, an anonymous source. That's a really long title for a podcast. It kind of rolls off the tongue. Insanity Falls may be genius, especially if he has all the domains and stuff. That's pretty impressive. But in this podcast, it's more of a talking blog. He discusses, our host, discusses how the Godzilla roar was originally portrayed and created. and then he attempts to do the same. So I just googled, how did they make the Godzilla sound?
    12:41
    And so I found the answer, and it was the sound of a leather glove dipped in pine tar resin dragged across the back of a double bass.
    12:56
    So, despite whatever other bullshit you get, shit that sounds like or whatever you know, that stupid sounding shit I am going to actually attempt to reproduce the Godzilla with the available materials that I have at my disposal at this moment so give me a sec to do some redneck engineering get you what you need so I've got on a pair of leather work gloves here Well, I don't have a pair on because I have a cast on my left hand. My right hand, which has some sticky shit on it. Because I found melted Jolly Ranger from Halloween that sat in the cup holder of the car all day in a very, very hot environment. A leather work glove. We got some Jolly Ranger shit on it. The last ingredient, a double bass. I do not have a double bass. If you don't know what a double bass is, imagine a violin, but it's taller than you. I don't have one of those. So the closest thing I could find to approximate a large hollow wooden contraption is the 1997 classic by Pat Lawler, No Good Gophers. So we're going to see how they made the original Godzilla Roar on a No Good Gophers.
    14:23
    All right, we're starting to get a sound. I'm sorry that was roar-ish we'll see oh not some over so anyway that probably sounds nothing like the godzilla roar because it is right it does not you don't actually care about our fucking folly work you just want to make people make fools of themselves for your own enrichment anyway see you later bye okay so okay well i respect the effort it sounded like rubbing your hand on a balloon Oh, it was so close. So close. Maybe if it had gone for less of a Jolly Rancher consistency and more of like a cherry sour. Yes, a cherry sour. I appreciate the research done. I do appreciate that. I also appreciate the fact that he made some pretty clever jokes there. So I like that. Unfortunately, listener, you only heard a little bit of that. I had to sit through 10 minutes of that. So, I don't know if we just... Very sorry about the first broken bone. That was tragic to learn about. It was a pretty funny joke, though. Put on a pair of gloves, I can't because one's in a cast, thus it's not a pair. So, do we allow that in? We can allow it, but it won't be one that I would pick. Okay. So, it sounds like we have a winner here. Mm-hmm. I think so. Number five. The winner, number five. I can give away a letter. Okay.
    16:21
    All right, go. Go. I think her parents made her drink pine tar. That's right. And that's how it got that effect.
    16:36
    Almost like a melted Jolly Rancher in the back of her throat. So congratulations, little girl. You did a nice job. I'm glad the dog in the background looked at you like you were crazy. And the rest of your family as well. We had a little baby Godzilla in there at the very beginning. I like that part, too. So that was a different baby. Yeah, that was a different kid. That was a baby Godzilla getting shoved off the stage. Oh. Yeah.
    17:04
    Well, I like that that one was clearly in it versus our number, what was it, number three, where there was that great scream that was way in the background. Well, there it is, ladies and gentlemen, a brand-new Godzilla banner. or you guys will have to listen to the pinball show in the future as we will be giving away more fun stuff. Have you thought about contacting Jerry Thompson to see if he would be willing to put that scream in as an Easter egg in one of the code updates? Jerry.
    17:29
    Jerry's a listener, too. He may. Oh. He may. He may do that. Like maybe entering high score number three. That's right.
    17:38
    Maybe we'll find the flipper code. You don't want flipper codes. No, I don't. You want to make your own punny factory. That's right. Nobody will flipper code me, damn it. A very interesting thing happened this last weekend, Dennis. Speaking of kids, we had our daughter. Another one. Yeah, our daughter had a friend over. How about that? Had a friend over.
    18:03
    I'm just being transparent here because it was different for me, a bit awkward. The child did not speak English. Okay. A new child to the area. So my daughter, because she's so freaking sweet, she befriended this young girl and wanted, I don't even know how she coordinated this, because parents don't speak English either. All I know is that at my dinner table, there was this little girl and we were eating dinner. what I found odd is that children I guess children are so pure they don't even know Dennis that how to interact with somebody that doesn't speak the same language as them as parents it was kind of awkward having a child I didn't know in my house that I couldn't speak to granted this is for a fact we had a little translator in the Google machine thing so it was fine but little thing it wasn't even 8 years old I don't think just the sweetest little thing eating and at one point sadly i noticed my two daughters trying to interact and communicate with this little girl by talking like they were talking to an old man they were like you want more pizza okay yeah they were doing that whole thing it was embarrassing but what they don't know any different and then and then their syntax would be like incorrect like they were teaching her like me don't know and i'm like oh girls no you're oh she's trying to learn english and you're oh no and i said i say girls look she's not deaf she's just japanese it's time for tpn industry news Hello and welcome to the Pinball Show's Stern News Update. I'm Craig Bobby. Well, one thing you can say these days is that there's certainly a lot of games coming from Stern as they are on track to hit most, if not all, of their 2021 new release targets. But unfortunately, in doing so, Stern now seems to be leaving a growing number of customers and distributors standing in line waiting as supply chain delays continue to bring trouble to Stern's pinball paradise. Yes, trouble is apparently brewing in the Stern distributor world right now, as word has it that Stern is looking to add up to 25 new distributors in the U.S. market alone, while also trying to increase their market penetration in other countries where they are potentially underrepresented. This comes as distributors around the world are raising their concerns with Stern as the demand for pinball rides at an all-time high, but sadly in the midst of a worldwide supply chain shortage. This is placing distributors potentially at odds with the Stern mothership, as Stern continues to limit distributor product allocations of all models, while the monstrous number of machines on backorder continue to grow, with some putting the value on backorders conservatively north of $30 million. And as every successful new release passes, more people are starting to question Stern's production and marketing approach through this boom growth period. As their new release schedule continues to march on, distributors, operators, or homeowners be damned, leaving nobody happy. New President Seth Davis to the rescue to calm this pinball madness? Stay tuned. And a slight tweak to the hottest rumor this week at Stern Pinball comes after piecing multiple sources and bits of information about one of the hottest licenses and dream themes pinball fans have long been asking for. Yes, rumor has it that the Back to the Future Super L.E. is coming to Stern, and that none other than the GOAT himself, yes, Keith Elwin, and not George Gomez, will be designing it. Say what? Yes, while Stern will not directly own the license, they will partner once again with Beatles and Batman 66 licensor extraordinaire Joe Kamenkow to bring this 80s title back to life and into production. Look for this title to hit sometime in August of 2022, pending any production delays. And while there's no doubt that a Back to the Future release will be big in terms of hype and very big in terms of the body slam that title will put in your bank account or credit card, could this be the limening of Keith Elwin behind a high-dollar Super Ellie paywall forever? Limening referring of course to what Chicago Gaming is attempting to do with their recent Cactus Canyon remake and placing an extra yet unannounced price on new upcoming code from recently code developer and extern employee Limensheets. But you guessed it we shall have to wait and see Well that's all for this week for the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby, catch you on the flip side Matt Morrison here with your Chicago Gaming Company update for the week. Josh Sharp was on the Loser Kid Pinball podcast with an interview that may raise more questions than answers. We did find out that most of the original Cactus Canyon team was consulted. Rob Berry, Matt Correal, even Eric Pripke from Cactus Canyon Continued Fame was consulted. Tom Capera was left out because he has a relationship at Stern being their lead mechanical engineer now. It sounds like this is going to be a one and done software release from Lyman that may or may not include additional topper modes. The takeaway I got from this whole interview was for Lyman to finish the original vision with some additional flair and make sure the game has that signature Bally Williams charm I adjusting my expectations more in line with an attack from Mars level of depth Hopefully these questions and more will be answered sooner than later with SE games supposedly being shipped in the next week or two Two weeks. Well, that'll do it for this week. I'm Matt Morrison for CGC. Back to you guys.
    24:12
    Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Well, it looks like Pirates of the Caribbean is finally going to see some update love from Jersey Jack. There's a big new update that is currently in beta that will add some cool new enhancements to Pirates. It includes updated character abilities, as well as a feature that allows you to change characters during the game. I think this is a great change, as this game is really focused on players customizing their strategy to their playstyle. The update also includes rule changes, effect updates, bug fixes, and of course scorebit integration and achievements. The code is currently in open beta, which means that a full release will likely be available soon. If you want to take part in the open beta, you'll need to set up a Telegram account and send your username to beta at jerseyjackpinball.com. They are really looking for active feedback at this stage, so preference for the open beta program is given to those willing to test the code and to report issues and bugs. And as for the next game, no announcement was made at Expo, so we're still in the dark on the next title. It's looking likely that we won't know more until 2022, so we'll have to be patient for a little longer before we find out what all of those Jersey Jack designers are up to. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Redberg.
    25:46
    Hey, this is Kaz with an update on American Pinball. The team has been very busy the last few weeks attending all the pinball shows. They were at Pinball Expo in Chicago, the Midwest Gaming Classic in Milwaukee, attending the Houston Arcade Expo, as well as the recent IAAPA Trade Show and Free Play Florida events in Orlando, Florida. And my contact Michael Grant has moved over to Stern Pinball, so I reached out to the new hire there at American Pinball, Steve Bowden. He told me it's been a fun, hectic ride so far as he works on the sales and marketing side of things, as well as contributing to game development, rules, and testing. And he's pleased to see that the high interest in Valhalla has also caused renewed interest in Houdini, Oktoberfest, and Hot Wheels. He's going to be doing a lot of videos and attending a lot of shows, so check out his Facebook page, Fun With Bonus, as well as checking out the American Pinball Facebook page as well. Look forward to talking to Steve further as he advances there at American Pinball. So I hope everybody has a great week and has fun playing pinball. For the Pinball Show, this is Brian Kosner.
    26:52
    We'll start with the big king of pinball, that is Stern Pinball. Man, speaking of kings, Craig Bobby bringing the heat this week, Dennis, with his report that Stern Pinball continues to see a record number of back orders, but they're still adding 25 new dealers to the distribution network? Holy cow. Huh? If that's true, holy cow. How many distributors do they have? Do you know? I don't know offhand. They have a lot. It's a lot. It is a lot around the world. You want a hot take? They have too many.
    27:23
    That's a hashtag fact. I could, whoa. I mean, I'm not here to give business advice because what do I know about it? But let's just say that I have a microphone, so I guess I get to do what I want. That is a terrible idea, especially as far behind as they are on back orders. Why would you do that? Because all you're going to do is feel this pressure to continue to ration supply out to now an even wider pool of individuals. If anything, they should be looking at like dropping 25% of their distributor network for underperformance. I like that idea. If I were at Stern, I would be looking at that. I'd probably contact the lowest, the lower 50% of sales and say, you guys are on the chopping block. Make an argument as to why we should keep you with the ultimate goal of actually dropping 25%. Maybe a video submission to stay. Yeah. You know, I was going through YouTube the other day. I saw my Batman 66 draft pinball submission application video that I did. You need to share that on the social medias. Oh, gosh. That's from years ago. You probably had a mullet at that time. Those were the happy times where everyone was like, holy cow, a game for $15,000? That was pre-Zack. That was before you were even in the hobby. Well, so that is a big report there. I don't know if it's true. I don't know if he's talking about 25 new dealers for the entirety of 2021. I know that Stern, the fact-based stuff, is Stern is always trying to expand their distribution network to get more products out to the world. I know that in their opinion, I've talked to them very recently about this and this model. Their opinion is their distribution network and the widespread that it has become is the reason that the popularity of pinball, to a certain extent, has increased. They feel really strongly about that. Now, they also, I do know, they also get rid of dealers as well. We had a list of dealers that no longer carry Stern products for one reason or another. So it's not just one way. I was told that there wasn't many dealers added, certainly not 25 recently. So I don't – Craig Bobby's got sources now. He's flown out of the nest, Dennis.
    29:35
    I just imagine him in like the trench coat with the sunglasses and the fedora, and he's all – like outside the stern, and these people are coming up to him, and he's handing them like fivers, teners, 20ers. He's like, so what's going on? I'm just giving a scoop. Looking behind his back, looking left and right. So what you hearing? Yeah. So he's kind of like dressed up like McGruff, the crime dog. Oh, I do remember McGruff, the crime dog. That's Craig. He's like a Canadian crime dog. So Stern Production. So I talked about it. What was it? Last two weeks. A couple of weeks ago. Last episode. Yeah. Kind of hinting at 2022 is going to be a tough production year. Many hints were dropped. I'm going to say for dealers. When Stern Pinball listeners creating more pinball machines, producing more pinball machines than they ever have, I can't say that they are doing bad. They're growing that back order list to record numbers. Well, you could.
    30:36
    You probably wouldn't want to, but you could say maybe that from a consumer standpoint, like why you keep turning out new games when you can't even push out and meet the needs of the releases you've already done i think that would be a fair criticism it's frustrating for me as a dealer it's frustrating for me as a hobbyist it was frustrating for a buyer who's told that they ordered the first month of a game release and they're still sitting waiting for man that's what i mean as a hobbyist it's it is frustrating all the way around i don't even know how it has reached this point. But then again, I'm not behind the scenes in management to determine these things. I've, as a dealer, I've spoke with Stern recently, as I've said, and we've went into great detail about how we've got here, where we're going in the future. These are all important things. And we're leading the show with this because this is something that will affect everybody looking to purchase pinball machines in the future. No, no, no. It's just going to. I don't know if this is a dry topic for people, but it's very impactful nonetheless.
    31:45
    When we talk about production updates, Dennis and listener, for example, what do we have coming up the rest of Q4 here? The rest of the year, we've still got, I'm looking at the schedule now, they're still trying to crank out some Star Wars pros. Iron Maiden premiums recently went out. Jurassic Park premiums. they're going to try to squeeze some of those out. This is a bit dated of a schedule, but still probably relevant. They've got some Star Wars, the pen and the pen comic that they're going to try to squeeze out probably this month still. Iron Man Vault, that was allocated, or that was from previously this year and bumped back. They're still going to try to get that probably final run out there. We've got Godzilla Pros that recently sent out, So I think that's the last of the Godzilla pros and premiums you're going to see this year. That's a tough one. And then we have some Mandalorian pros and premiums still on the schedule. No guarantee, but still on the schedule for the end of the year here. Still the Elvira 40th anniversaries. We should see those on the line probably this week or next. So those are coming. They have that last run of Batman premiums. That last, you know, license is ending. Last run of that. And we're seeing a theme here. We're squeezing in a lot of these things that the license is kind of expiring. We've got Batman like that, Stranger Things Pro. We might get some of those by the end of the year. That license is, I don't see them reproducing that in 2022. Premiums have been gone for a while, and they have no intention on redoing those. Beatles Gold, same thing. License is coming to a close, et cetera. You may get a couple Deadpool premiums squeezed out, but don't hold your breath there. Iron Man Vault, same kind of thing. So I'm seeing them try to squeeze a lot of stuff into the end of the year, which makes sense from a licensing standpoint, right? Yeah, it does. So we've got that. Now, the allotments on all of these productions are somewhat small. I can say only personally as a dealer, the backorder list that I have for all of these titles that I just talked about ending Q4, I'm not being fulfilled for the most part. The stuff that's ending and not going to be made again, sure. But the other stuff, I'm not getting close to what I have on backorder. So we're rolling a big backorder list for most of the larger dealers, especially for the entirety of 2022. So we look at 2022 and what's going to happen here. Last episode, you said that the plans for moving forward on 2022 were much larger runs rather than as many line shifts from game to game to game. Initially, last year, when these backorders were piling up, we were told that. We were told, hey, you may not see us shifting these lines around as much, but when we do run a game, it's going to be a much more substantial run of it. We'll run it longer, if you will, to get more machines out because there are many titles you may only see run once a year or even twice a year. Some titles you're not going to see run at all, even if there are back orders. That's what was almost devastating to me.
    34:55
    Heartbroken. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, all you can do is give the information to the customer and to the community that you know. And when you don't know something, some people fill in the gaps. I don't. I just tell them I don't know, which is frustrating in and of itself. But you'd rather hear you don't know than just me making up something. So next year, we have the first quarter that we have some allotment numbers for. If anybody's jerking you around dealer-wise and they're saying, well, I don't know what my cut's going to be in February. No, no, no. They're just dragging you along. So we've got our allotment numbers, and they're significantly smaller than I was expecting. Are they smaller than what your allotments were Q1 of this year? That's a great question. I would say absolutely. Okay, because there's been all this talk that they're putting out more games, that they did more games. So are they just expecting less production next year than there was this year, or have they not really been turning out more games? What they're going to be doing is they're going to be somewhat capping dealers in 2022. We know that dealers are capped for their LEs. We only get a certain allotment, right? Right, right. That's always been the case to my understanding. New games come out. Let's say we have a new game in January. No longer am I going to say, you know what? As Flippin' Out Pinball, I'd like to order X amount of pros, X amount of premiums based on kind of what I think the game is going to be capable of doing versus some interested lists that I've compiled, I will be allocated a pro and premium number quantity, just like I am the LEs. That's a big, big change in the distribution network and the sales force for Stern Pinball. I understand why they're doing that, Dennis. They're doing that to better manage that backorder list so that it doesn't continue to grow, with the understanding that they're going to lose sales. But what are you going to do? What's the alternative? Well, that's where when we were talking earlier about Craig's reporting of the possible addition of 25 new dealers, that I would be like, this is where you would, if I were them, be looking at trimming back on the number of dealers, the ones that aren't the really low-selling ones, just so you can get more allocation to the ones that people know about in the hopes of actually moving those products on to customers. But, I mean, look on the bright side, Zach. You don't have to work at growing your business because there's no way to grow. That's the concern I initially had. No, think of it as a positive. You can coast. I don't like being capped anything. There are laurels, and you can rest on them. I don't want people feeling too sorry for me or the other dealer network. I'm with you, Dennis. I feel bad for the people that have been waiting because push comes to shove. We're still getting our sales. We're still getting our allotments. We're still making a living. so you don't honestly you don't have to feel too bad i was about to send you soup thank you i need it but it's still tough the good stuff that's in cans it's still tough good was that a thing i think that was a campbell's thing yeah that was campbell's we're not going that good for you though i just said in cans not campbell's you're all like i want the good stuff like whoa whoa whoa whoa I don't have that much sympathy for you. So it's tough for a growing business such as myself to try to really bring more people into the hobby, make more sales, have people touch these games more, when I know that there's only so much that I can sell anyway. When we go to Q1, we have substantially low runs. I know that there's going to be a Godzilla Pro and Premium run, you guys, in March. March is that next run. Wow, that's quite a ways out. That is a ways out. What's that going to do to the marketplace on secondary units? I think it's going to increase. People waiting from December, January, February, March. And remember, even in March, when those Godzillas roll out, pros and premiums, it's at a very heavily reduced rate. It might be a ton, but when you take a hit like Godzilla and spread it out amongst all of your dealers, it's still each dealer doesn't get as many as they're even close to having back ordered same with mandalorian i'm hoping they get a pro and premium run out before the end of the year because there is a there's for me it looks small small run in february so we've got a new hit game in godzilla that came out what two months ago about two months ago we've had two pro runs one premium run and then we're going to get nothing until march after that the current schedule after March for Godzilla is August. Holy cow. They must be really thinking that people are going to shift to some other game or something. Yeah. So that's, it's August. So that's another five months after that. And again, I want to remind everybody, these are tentative schedules. They may say, no, we have the parts. Let's add an April run. So these are just, just tentative. It's concerned. I would say maybe y'all need to tentatively start thinking about getting to like Rush. Avengers is coming in the first quarter in March another run there as well as Jurassic Park Pro and Premium in April so we have that's kind of the Q1 lineup I would expect there to be a new game in the December January area so they'll squeeze things here and there and everywhere we don't have really allotment numbers for Q2, Q3 or Q4 yet we have some ideas of when they're running things such as Mandalorian Pro. Again, remember, February we got Mandalorian. We're going to have another run of premiums in June and pros in July.
    40:44
    As well as like Turtles. Right now it's not on the schedule until the end of next year. Elvira? Elvira Premium. People have been waiting. We're looking at next winter for another run. Specifically right now, December 2022. That's a tough one. It's like they don't like building No, Vyra. They might not. Deadpool Pros, we're not going to see another run of those until July, I don't believe.
    41:11
    Premiums, we're going to see them in August. Now, people have been waiting for those damn Deadpools. And then we have things like, this one surprised me. Jurassic Park the Pin, the brand new game, right? Right. Yeah, the one Jack Danger worked on. We've seen social media this week, listener, that those are being run right now. We're going to have probably a pretty substantial run here. not filling the allotments but a substantial run the next run right now tentatively november of 2022 holy cow i just don't i just i mean you know i know it's a pin so maybe those there's less demand and they can get away with just putting them out around christmas time and that's the strategy for those i mean they are doing those runs for the star wars pin right now too so maybe that fits with how that type of game sells. I don't know, but it still seems like a long wait. It is a long wait, but you're right. We do see an influx in purchases of the pin series in the October, November, December, more so than any other month probably combined, so the holiday season. And the last point that I'll make on the scheduling is that as of right now, tentatively, they could throw these in anywhere, but as of right now, these following titles are not on the schedule. Yeah, I haven't heard Led Zeppelin out of you yet. Led Zeppelin Pro and Premium. Iron Maiden Pro and Premium. Guardians of the Galaxy Pro. I keep forgetting they're still building that. It's an old game. Yeah, Stern reps have told me, look, we're in this situation because we did not anticipate our catalog being produced for so long. People still want these games, and it has kind of surprised us that two to three years later, people are still clamoring for Deadpool. But they do understand that with this new Insider Connected system, people are now going back to these games that they loved before, and they want to give them a shot again with some of the achievements they can earn and stuff like that. They have a long list. Right now we have, I'm going to count them, we have over 25, including pros and premiums separately, 25 different machines that they are producing at Stern Pinball. And that is not including any LEs or anything that is coming up new this next year. 25. It's an awful lot to manage.
    43:29
    Yeah, and it's just, again, my hot take, I get that there's very well still demand for Iron Maiden and Guardians and such. But at some point, just because of the backlog, I mean, they're not realistically meeting these needs anymore. And I think they need to start culling the catalog and just saying, we've got to stop. we can't we can't go back forever anymore i mean that was the big change from the 90s where you'd run the game and then be done with it and cern really learned that being able to you know do multiple runs on a game can make you a lot of money and give you a lot of success but given you know you've got even just stuff that's not as old that's the that's hot still like jurassic park and avengers that people want that i just don't know about going back to guardians in particular is there a concept as too much success well sure do you think that's where we're at with stern pinball i don't know uh sort of uh because i i don't know how much of their problem is the growth and demand of pinball and how much of it is global supply chain issues have basically undercut what otherwise would have been a very manageable and successful strategy of having 25 possible games on their order card so i don't want to say that it was just like their decisions put them in this situation but it feels like the strategy to me is let's just wait and hope somehow this all resolves and there's doesn't seem to be a lot of consideration that i can tell about like how do you manage having people wait this long to get something what does that what's the takeaway what what is the average person who doesn't understand global supply chain or anything along these lines just once a game what do they end up thinking about stirring pinball if they end up having to wait 10 months to get the game they ordered. Yeah, you're right. The other thing is this. I think that price increase that we are going to see January 1st, listener, that has everything to do with parts delays, shortages, increase in prices on parts. Very true. But based on these projections and this data, it also suggests to me that they're pulling the old Jersey Jack maybe, where we're going to increase Guns N' Roses mid-run because maybe we're trying to pull in how many we have to make. Do you think that's a possibility too? Yeah, that could be. But the pricing thing is fairly consistent with what they've done even before all of this with the, okay, we've implemented a price increase. We're not going to immediately put it on the older games, but there's a stage where we will. Sure, but the actual amount was substantially more. Yeah. They used to go up by 100 a year. We've seen an increase, Dennis, of like $1,000 for premiums, $1,200 increases for premiums come January 1st. But a couple hundred of that is for the connected system. Absolutely. I have to factor that in. So, yeah, I could see it. And it's reading the marketplace as well as what the market price is for these. If they're seen on the secondary market, used games going for more than they're selling new MSRP, then sure, they're going to increase the price to balance that. I get that as well. Here's what I think. I think that as we're going into 2022, this isn't a doomsday thing because we're still getting all craploaded machines. I think that Stern probably had licensing agreements. Everybody was like, why don't you just stop making new games? It's not that easy. If you've already established a licensing agreement a year and a half ago, you have to follow through with that. Sure, you can get extensions to some degree and to some point, but there's so many shuffling around that we've heard before. This was supposed to be next, but it didn't because something fell apart, so we had to bump this one up. There's so much of that that they probably already had committed all the way out to these new licensed titles. So I've heard you talking about it, Dennis, saying, I hope by now they have kind of taken a break from taking on new licensed properties for these upcoming products. I think it was already a rolling ball down the hill that they couldn't do nothing with because they didn't want to mess up the relationships that they have established over decades probably with some of these licensors. Sure and I totally understand that I just hope that they looking with a degree of foresight on we got to catch up eventually So something has to give at some point So are they – but if they're just going to keep acting, I don't know. Maybe they have. And maybe they've been like, you know what? In 2023, there will be two cornerstones. That's the plan. I totally expect them every year to put out new games. That's what Stern does. But if the goal is to keep the line busy and you've got thousands of machines backlogged, your line is going to stay busy. You don't have to keep doing what your prior strategy was once you catch up with meeting all your agreements, because obviously you don't want to go around breaking those. So I don't know if they have the foresight or not. And what Stern has been really good about, listener, is that whenever they take an order in, they'll make that game. They generally won't just abruptly say, oh, by the way, I know you have 30 Led Zeppelin premiums on order. Yeah, we're just not going to make that anymore, so best of luck. I'm not saying they won't do that now that they're in this situation, but typically in the past they've done really well with not doing that. They would tell you, no, we're not taking any more orders. I'm sorry. So my prediction for 2022 is one that none of you are going to want to hear. I predict in 2022, as allotments are given and dealers are capped with what they can and cannot order regarding pros and premiums on new games, I'm predicting that the MSRP for games moving forward is now going to mimic and mirror that of what we were used to as a map pricing. Street price is $300 less. We've heard that before. $200 less.
    49:24
    MSRP is going to be the lowest you're going to see. I also don't think you're going to see perks like free shipping. I don't see that happening in 2022. As a dealer, what I have to do and what the distribution network has to do is, hey, I was expecting to get this amount of games for the year. I'm getting half of that. I'm getting a fourth of that or whatever it may be. To continue with what's coming into that said business, restructuring has to occur. It doesn't have to, I suppose. but to maintain that business structure and what's coming in, that input, the revenue, to maintain that, changes will have to be made.
    50:06
    And I don't think just setting a price at MSRP is going to be enough, Dennis. I don't. I think that dealers, including myself probably, before when dealers, we could order as many as we wanted, they produced forever. When dealers went over MSRP, I was like, come on, that's tacky. That's shitty. Don't do that to people. It's just people that don't know what they're doing. They're seeing it online. They're buying it. I'm backstepping a little bit. If I only get so many, I'm going to have to start setting that market price. I think the distribution network in 2022 is going to be your source for pricing.
    50:46
    The MSRP was just, that's just merely, I think it's a moot point at this point. I think come into first quarter, you're going to see dealers saying, I know MSRP is $68.99 on a pro, but looking at the schedule, we know this isn't going to be made again. This is now the price of a premium. This is an $89.99 game.
    51:06
    I think you're going to see a range. Thoughts? You're probably right. We probably will see a range. however because MSRP is publicly announced it's well known and this is the age of the internet I think distributors will be punished based off of their behaviors and there are so many distributors in the Stern network there will be some that will hold that MSRP because of that winners and losers once this is stabilized will be picked and we will remember those of us who betrayed us and I used to think the same thing I did I'm right I'm right I used to think I'll remember Pepperidge I am the Pepperidge Farm, and I will remember. Because whenever people would be like, dude, you realized with you setting these LEs at MSRP and everybody else getting these for them, you left $40,000, $50,000 on the table. I said, yeah, because it's the right thing to do, and people will remember that. Sadly, not everybody remembers or cares. There's not as much loyalty as I would like to think. People go where the games are.
    52:10
    Sure. It depends on the person. Right now, the number of games being produced is so low compared to the demand that it is a logical conclusion that retailers would be saying, let's set it above MSRP. But it would be different if there were like six of you guys, but there aren't. There are dozens of distributors, and some just don't care enough or won't bother. I heard someone a few weeks ago – this was a few weeks ago – where they were still able to go and get a Godzilla LE from a distributor because no one knew about them. Sure. They don't sell online. They don't have a website. They don't have places and stuff, yeah. Yeah, and it's just like there's so many like that that it's a side thing. They don't really care. They just stick with whatever the MSRP is and maybe they were already selling above quote-unquote street price. I do agree that the street price part is probably dead. and at this stage that it's going to be like every other pinball machine where MSRP is the minimum period that you can find, shipping not included. Totally get it.
    53:13
    But, yeah, I mean, I don't know. But here's the thing. Some might not care, but there are a lot of people in this hobby that do, and it's not going to be rich people for as soon as people figure out you've got a spot weld, turtles, gliders. Rich people are going to get out of this hobby when they realize that there are no techs, and you have to fix all this stuff, and this surge of demand will not last forever. But here's my argument, though. You talk about you can still find this with a small dealer. Okay, and yes, you can. Believe me, the last couple weeks, once I found out the schedule, I called around to some of these smaller dealers and dealers in general, and I started buying inventory at customer pricing because I want to be able to fulfill some of the back order for my customers, even if I don't make a dime, because I think that's the right thing to do as a business. But when I call these places, maybe you can find that. But if my allotments as a larger dealer are cut significantly for next year, what do you think theirs is going to be? Okay, so maybe you will find that one. But if you've got 100 people looking for that one MSRP pro, it's going to be gone. And then what?
    54:17
    Sure, there's going to be some needles in the haystack there. But then what? Well, it's a question of patience, I guess, and I don't have answers for you, Zach. All I'll say is I'll be well aware of what Flippin' Out, TNT Amusements, Cointaker, what you all do. And I'll remember which ones were the highest, and I won't shop with them. It's just that simple. But I already am not buying because I already think the prices have gotten way more ridiculous than what these games warrant. So for me, I already made my decision, and it's going to be up to every listener to make their own determinations. Businesses are going to do what they need to do or what they want to do, and the consumers will react accordingly. But this situation with the backlog is not going to – in fact, I don't even expect this to last for 24 months. So what happens over the next year, year and a half could sting a lot of people and could go – I'm just saying there could be blowback. Because it's not going to – I don't think it's going to be all that long before Stern will finally catch up on all of this. And everyone – yeah. The global supply chain choke can't last all that long now that everything is essentially getting back to normal. So it's just a question of you've had the traffic accident on the interstate. the traffic accident is already cleared we're at that point essentially but you still have to wait for all the cars to get moving before you actually notice that there's no longer gridlock yeah i think within 24 months production speed and supply issues won't be the big problem now with stern will there be any additional length because they are now up to 30 games that they're building because they did all this stuff and they didn't slow up on their licenses i don't know but their production capabilities, their ability to grow on, on building is there. It's really just supply. So, and I think the, a lot of listeners here, Dennis or agree with you and they're, they're going to take this. No, they probably don't. No, they're going to say, they probably want to pay more money. I, I echo, I, I agree with you. I think a lot of them are going to be like, look, I'm, I'm with Dennis. I'm going to be paying attention because when push comes to shove, when all this, when we are out of this dust, then I'm going to go to the people that didn't increase price. And I think ideologically, sure. Here's the thing, listener. If you did agree with Dennis on that, I want you to answer this to yourself. If you agreed with that, can you list in your mind right now five dealers that have increased prices already for the last 2021 above MSRP in certain situations? Can you list those? I would venture to say most of you cannot because you've already forgotten. It'll be interesting. Well, if they didn't shop with them, how would you? how would they expect to oh they were searching for that pin if they're searching around for a pin that they wanted and it was over msrp and they were put off by it people's memory when it comes to things that they really want yeah i don't know how often they really call i think a lot of times it's calling around if if most of them were doing the street level thing you know i just don't know if there's if it's really all that many that had up until this point raised the amount so unless you already had turned to that entity to know i mean i know some i've been probably talking about for example the le's and and knowing what people did with the you know there were a few that raised their prices on the le's of them msrp immediately sure like godzilla that's the same thing you're talking about and maybe yeah and maybe they know those are you know i wouldn't be able to name them because i never looked my good machine my pepperidge farm only remembers things it looks at i'm like the the boring pepperidge farm cookie i'm the shortbread cookie you know so that's the real but i mean it's easy for me i haven't bought a new game since 2019 i could go another five years without buying another game it doesn't matter it doesn't matter i know it's not my job to keep you it's not my job to pour money into all of you that's not how i that's not how hobbies work my guess will be the low-hanging easy fruit will be kind of what you mentioned that that msrp is going to be like the minimum available pricing and the shipping goes away those are the two easiest lifts because when people go and research things and look at the facebook announcements and press releases of Stern, they'll see that the prices are identical then. So to the common person, it's not going to look weird. It's not going to look like, oh, wait, Beanie Babies are hot. We're slinging Beanie Babies. I've had at least 10 people offer to get bumped up to a sooner production run on Godzilla. At least 10 people already saying, I will pay you $1,000 or more over MSRP. Sure, there are plenty of people that will try and buy their way past this. And I turned every one of them down. Because a list is a list. If I've got a list, then it's chronological for a reason. I go through it. But I just don't. I love you dealers out there, but there's some of you I just don't trust to not make decisions like that, to not try to get everything you can. And at this point, I can't even blame you for some of it. We'll see. We'll see if there's a tactful way to do so. But yeah, I mean, it's just for me, it's a there's also a difference as fair or unfair as some may perceive it. There's a difference between being a distributor in an official network and then whatever happens secondhand on the secondhand market. And that to me, it's I can see where someone who's slinging things officially might go. You know what? It's not fair that these LEs go for four thousand dollars more immediately after I sell them. But sort of that's the condition. And whether or not – I mean if it gets obscene, don't be too shocked if contracts are renegotiated by the supplier saying, you know what? We're not going to allow you to do this anymore. And that's the one thing I don't know. At the end of the day, if you talked about they're going to be punished for selling over that, I don't know. And I don't think they'd be punished if it's allowable under your current agreements. I don't think be punished. The question would be a correction later. And the case in point I brought up on, I think when I was on Triple Drain, was that, for example, again, from my watch hobby, Rolex's distributors are not allowed to sell above those MSRPs. And if you do so, you lose your entire distributorship with them. Well, that would work. And those dealers have the same thing. It's like it's not fair. A Submariner is an $8,000 watch on retail, and on the secondhand market, it's $14,000.
    60:31
    It's so tough. If you chose to be an official distributor, you play by their rules, or you get none of their product, and then you're really hurting. Completely agree. But that's up to Stern. I mean, that's a Stern decision. We'll see what happens.
    60:45
    I don't know if Godzilla is going to make that leap. Speaking of Godzilla, there's a code update, version .81. Oh, I love going through code updates. I know you hate it. We're going to be quick on this, but I've got to tell you, Dennis, we were at .80. And I was kind of chuckling because I was like, man, everybody's heralding this game, but there's so much code left now. And then I seen a .01 bump, and I was like, I know this is not indicative of how much percentage you're at, but you get a .01, and you're like, okay, we're not going to get much here. I was wrong. Nope. If this is the way the ratio of what we're going to be seeing increases here, holy moly, they added so much for .81 that a lot of holes filled that I was having a problem with. I was getting to second-tiered stuff, nothing really happening in the battles. Cities weren't doing anything. I was like, eh, it's a fantastic classic game, but it needs code. And code it received. .81 adds things, adds a lot of stuff. Saucer attack, multi-ball, more tweaking to that Godzilla magnet. The building stepper, more tweaking to that. They've now added so much in the battles, in the modes, in the cities. More light shows, more call-outs, more shaker motor integration. This game is nuts at .81. I don't know a game this dynamic at .81 since I've been in pinball.
    62:04
    So you went back and looked at the other .81 updates and made that determination? Absolutely. I only report the facts here. That's interesting. All the way back to WWE, my friend. A-plus on your research effort.
    62:19
    This game's getting scary. It's really getting scary. Shaken Bay Craig Bobby was scary this last week. We talked about in his reporting. He's also reporting that we're hearing more chatter about a Back to the Future title coming next summer. Great Scott from Stern Pinball as a Kapow Pinball collaboration. He even went so far to say the Elwynn developmental team is going to be at the helm of this game. He even talked about SLEs with Kapow and even coining the new phrase limening. Limening. alluding to the additional code that can be purchasable in the future, as Lyman Sheets is doing with Cactus Canyon. So inferring that as well, all kinds of – what? Craig Bobby, what is going on? That's an interesting – you know, I don't – ultimately, I could – I'm not saying that Stern wouldn't go the selling additional code route eventually, but I don't know about entirely, like, new experiences versus selling, like, co-op modes and stuff would be you know i'd actually be more concerned about the other type of limonene from stern which would be what they did with limon which was after 2014 and the walking dead they only kept him on non-cornerstone expensive games maybe that's what imagine if they did that with elwynn maybe that's what he's talking about maybe i misinterpreted i could definitely uh i mean if i were stern as as bad as bad as it is from a consumer perspective you could be like you know what elwyn's had four games he's had four hits everyone his name sells games easily now godzilla was not the most quote-unquote popular license uh but here it is you know destroying cities of pinball's game rooms with demand even with the huge price increase so why not put him permanently on collaboration games where it's not pro premium le but it's Premium Ellie, Super Ellie. And if it is a license like Back to the Future, holy moly. Well, and that's doubly clever in this case if this reporting is true because now you've taken a dead license and totally saved it with Elwynn. Oh. Since you're new here, I'm going to cut you a break today. So why don't you make like a tree and get out of here? You're still good. At this point, it's got to be a deal. No one cares anymore, Marty. Oh, my God. No one cares. No one cares about Biff. No one cares about Marty. No one cares about hoverboards. Look, where we're going, we're not going to need roads. It's just, you know, I'm looking at a jukebox for the new showroom. Really want a jukebox. And this is how big of a Back to the Future nerd I am. I knew that there was a jukebox in that film series trilogy at some point, and there is in the diner. Not really crazy about a bubbler, but whatever. but there is a jukebox a seaberg in in a doc's laboratory and i i'm wanting to get that seaberg just because it was in the film is that stupid okay horrible you're a fan i understand i also this last week doing jukebox research here's here's my dilemma i call or message scott denisi music guy to help me out matt morrison helped me out i didn't really i'm gonna be honest dennis kind of embarrassed about this. I didn't know the difference between a vinyl LP and a 45.
    65:40
    That's pretty sad. I don't know either. I don't know anything about records. Listeners out there rolling their eyes, I'm sorry. But what I've learned, thank you Matt Morrison and Scott Denisey, and they were kind, they didn't make fun of me too much. A 45 is a smaller version that went into things like jukeboxes and they were singles. So you got side A usually with a hit, side B with a hit, where an LP is a long play. It's the full album. Okay, yeah. Yeah, so when I was looking at jukeboxes, I was like, wait a minute. I want this new music on vinyl because I like the sound of that. It's pretty cool, right? A little Bo Burnham inside that I just purchased, a little vinyl, right? But I can't play those on jukeboxes because they only play like 45s. So you can't have new music. I see what you're saying. Okay, yeah. Yeah, because they play the smaller records. Yeah. So I want a jukebox that plays LPs, plays finals. But then Matt Morrison was like, you're an idiot, dude. Why would a jukebox play an entire album? How would it choose the song? Like, yeah. He said you wouldn't play an entire album in a jukebox. That's why they make a turntable. So you just get a turntable. He said a turntable is not as – I like the mechanics of a jukebox. And he's like, well, then you're stuck with old music, 45s. Then why don't new music producers create 45s? Probably because there's not a lot of people with jukeboxes. I guess. Damn it. Who wants to get up and constantly change records at their player? I had a record player that could play like three different sizes of record back when I was a kid. But, you know, we only really had the LP-sized albums, the big ones. Oh, I'm stuck here. But Scott Denise did save the day and said, look, because I wanted to buy the new TNA on vinyl. He said, hey, we actually are making 45s. the two hit songs that, you know, we're making two hit songs from the TNA soundtrack, and we're putting it on a 45, so I ordered that. So it looks like I'll be having a jukebox playing 45s in the future. Just no new music, I guess.
    67:36
    Chicago Gaming Company is so old, they probably made jukeboxes and 45s and the cabinets to all of these things, I bet. You think they did? I bet they did.
    67:47
    No, I don't. I do know that they continue to sell well, those Cactus Canyon remakes. Probably even a better response than CGC management was even expecting. No real updates, though, listener, on production timelines. We've just been told December through April they want the majority of them being done. So tell me, Zach, what's been going on with the SE Plus model? Yeah, the SE Plus came out because people wanted the topper, basically. Gotta have that topper with a wacky inflatable waving arm, guys. I loved your little video, your parody there. Is that public? Can people check that out? It is.
    68:24
    Because I'm so kind, I let you look at it first after all that work. I get the sneak peek. I loved it. And you can listen to Josh Sharp on the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast this week talking about some of this stuff as well. We do know that the SE Plus is $92.50, same price as the LE. Yep.
    68:42
    You don't get a lot of the features on the LE. Isn't it just an SE with the top? Yeah, that's it. you get an SE with the topper. So you don't get the wooden lower arm. How many have you sold? A lot. Oh, my God. A lot. It is all about the topper. I will say, though, that I was pretty surprised by the individuals we had on order for an SE not making that upgrade to the SE Plus. I was surprised by the number that did not. I thought it would have been the majority, but it was not the majority. To me, if you knew the price of the LE and saw that SE Plus was the same price, on principle, I absolutely wouldn't. In fact, I would have been, I would have, but you know how I am, would have been sorely pressed to have canceled my SE order. I didn't have any of those, but I read on the forums that people did that. I don't know. There's back and forth as to what the right way. I don't want to get into it. It's old news at this point. It's so old. I just want the games to start coming out. Now, people can get, they first initially said they were going to do number matching. They were like, no, we're not doing the LE number matching anymore. but now they said you can submit pictures if you have all three of the le games with that same serial number fickle i don't understand what's going on over there so if you've never seen such an indecisive manufacturer i know i'm not going to disagree you gotta email email cgc directly if you have all three the medieval attack from mars and monster bash le's of the same number and you want that fourth game to be the same number. So all three of you out there that meet those criteria, congratulations. And we're still waiting for news because PPS came out with, you're going to have a mirror back glass if you go through them. I don't even know the details. I've reached out to CGC and asked his dealer saying, hey, guys, what's the deal here? I'm still waiting for a response. We don't know. We have no clue. Order our game. Now, nothing's wrong here.
    70:35
    That's my new Nordman voice. Oh, no, no. Based off of feedback, I had to change it. No, I'm kidding. It's okay. Don't worry about it. Oh, there he is. Now, some people on the forums, Nordman, they're upset that apparently some dealers have been told that the SE Plus is now getting limited to 1,250 units. Oh, no. SE Plus Epsilon is a real thing. No, it started as farce, but it has become fact. I don't know any truth. They haven't told us dealers this. What's going on here? Maybe some dealers have been told this. I don't know. Maybe the first C in CGC doesn't stand for Chicago, but it stands for Chaos Gaming Company.
    71:17
    It's chaos. I simply don't know. I know that a lot of units have sold, and it kind of surprised them how many units have sold. I shouldn't have been surprised based on discussions I've had with them. But what are you going to do, right? You can lead a manufacturing company to water, but you can't make them produce screen print and play field. It something I don know what the Jersey Jack pinball speaking of leading a horse to water And Ken Rudberg was doing the Lord work this week My Little Pony confirmed Well he was talking about Pirates of the Caribbean Everybody waiting for that last code update. He said it's now in open beta. Numerous features being added. Online scorebit integration. That's their only title that isn't online. Yeah, that's de-scorebitted. That's right. Nicely done, Ken Rudberg, with the investigative work there. Good job, Ken. And we have a new game called Funhouse. That's not a new game. What? Funhaus 2. The sequel? Yeah, it's called Funhaus. Rudy's Nightmare. It was announced this last week. I first seen it on... Funhaus 2, ding dong. You're a hot dog. That's right. A hot dog. A little House 2 reference there for you guys. Hiya, bucko. Yeah, the Nap Arcade's where I first saw it on Facebook and the website blog, naparcade.org. He was like, did you see this? Funhaus Rudy's Nightmare. It's like a package for a couple thousand dollars. You get all kinds of stuff. And then later, we see a more in-depth story on Pinball News, Dennis. That's a collaboration between Pedretti Gaming. We heard that name before, right? Remember that? I think that was the alien. It sounds familiar. I think alien was being produced by Pedretti or somebody. Oh, okay. Manufacturing. Yeah, manufacturing. Team Pinball is working on this, Fast Pinball, Pin Sound, and Planetary Pinball Supply. Isn't Team Pinball who's been supporting Punny Factory? They have been the creative team designing some of the pinball. Where is Punny Factory? I don't know. Anyway, back to nightmare mode. So we've got all of them working together to develop Funhouse Rudy's Nightmare Kit, which is going to include a new WPC-89 replacement CPU board, new pin sound, sound display, audio content is going to be new, a mystery mirror. There's an LCD screen that goes on the play field. not on the playfield but within the playfield area and as well as a new 14 inch lcd display for replacing the alphanumeric i believe and there's a speaker system new trans light interior cabinet artwork this is a big system this is almost like a bride of pinball 2.0 that's what i yeah that's and hey they were i mean they were the same system era where they had gone to that uh to that new board set but it was pre-D&D. Oh yeah, yeah. It and Bride, yeah, were the two big ones. So, I mean they have all kinds of information on this pinballnews.com Yeah, they were the ones that were began manufacturing Pedretti Gaming that is manufacturing alien pinball games. But they're a partner with PPS for production of licensed reproduction Williams parts, which they've been manufacturing for several years now. They reached an agreement, this is Pedretti, two years ago to produce a 2.0 conversion kit for existing Williams Valley titles, with this Funhaus kit being the first to be announced.
    74:33
    Now, Pinball News is reporting that there's no permanent modification you have to make to your original Funhaus, including this kit, and it's pretty much plug and play. I doubt that. They show pictures of the animations. They're not bad. This is, this is, this interests me. The distributors for this kit, Freeplay Retro Games, RS Pinball, Cointaker, Planetary Pinball, Freddy's Pinball Paradise, Mr. Pinball Australia, and Pedretti. They're taking expressions of interest, but then some are ordering them. They're $2,000. I like that the first 200 orders get a limited edition Funhaus Rudy's Nightmare T-shirt, and it notes size large. No choice. That's one way to deal with the ordering chaos that T-shirts have. That is true. No, I don't know if large is the most common size worn by pinball people. No, we found that out. No, it's not. It was never with my EGP shirt orders I ever did. I never had a majority large. This is a big Pedretti push, though. I don't know what to think about the artwork, just because Funhaus is so nostalgic. I don't actually like the translate to original Funhaus either, though. I'm interested in this. I am not, but it's a cool idea. I'm interested in this. I enjoy Funhaus, but with the clown thing, it's not ever going to go in the house.
    75:51
    So this just falls into that. A little fear there, huh? Well, there's just too much of a creepy clown factor going on. I do like how the don't you want a balloon thing is straight out of it. That turned me off because that's one of my favorite horror licenses. And I don't know what to think about hot dog combat with this hot dog that looks like it's a... Why does the hot dog have mayo on it? That is strange, isn't it? Maybe he's sweating. He's a sweat dog.
    76:22
    The only sweat I want in those hot dogs is cart water. Roller dogs. Can you defeat the what dogs before the magnet does all the work for you? There will be no dust. There's her callback. Yeah, that's good. I'm probably going to order one. Of course. Well, I've never owned a fun house.
    76:48
    Really? Isn't that crazy? I've never owned a fun house. I'm surprised. Yeah, I am as well. I mean, it's always fun, but in my opinion, the price was always twice of what Whirlwind was, and Whirlwind's a better game. Okay.
    77:03
    We'll see. This is interesting. I like this. This tickles the old hot dog bone. You just have a hot dog.
    77:12
    Pull up a chair, get comfortable, grab a snack, and open wide, because the main course this evening is on pinball. Mark it, friend. Trending up this week, Godzilla holding strong, sitting upon its number one pin side top 100 throne for the past couple of weeks. This game's recent code update was a show of sheer dominance, as pre-sales continued to soar regardless of the growing wait times. We are all watching as this young, eager toddler skipped over crawling, it skipped walking. Move over, Fred Astaire, because this baby went straight to ballroom dancing. It's true. Picture this game as a badass little baby, all ripped up with bulging veins and a twitching eye, making zoomers even a bit jumpy. Feeling froggy? I'm forecasting this title, especially the premium LE models, to hold a pre-owned value of new in-box pricing over the next two quarters. In other words, what I'm telling you, listener, is that this game is essentially free entertainment. Ooh, that's a strong take. Also trending up this week, Jersey Jack Pinball's Pirates of the Caribbean. It feels like 2020 all over again. In the last month, a handful of POTCs have seen record sales prices for this 2018 game. Now consistently north of $20,000 on the secondary market, this wide-body behemoth may just be the most expensive, widely-produced pinball machine in the last decade. Now, many Pirates owners have seen these completed sales, and they've listed their machines as well, asking prices ranging right now from between $20,000 to $25,000. And that is a whole lot of booty. So, Godzilla and Pirates of the Caribbean are on a healthy upswing, but to balance that upswing, there has to be a fall. Based on a few comments from last PMT, I'd say trending down this week is family reunions? Ugh, you guys know where I was coming from a couple of weeks ago. Since when is pulling the positive from a negative situation a bad thing? Trending down this week, apparently silver linings. Burn them to the ground! All jokes aside, trending down this week is the Champion Pub. Chicago Gaming now has the likes of Bally Williams' Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, Monster Bash, and Cactus Canyon under its belt as remakes. So who gets the next bid at the champion belt? I'm afraid Pete Piotrowski's pub just ain't going to make that cut. The champion pub has seen the normal rate of secondary sales growth, but not a penny more. You can pick one up in the upper fives, lower sixes for a nice example, but I am sorry, Dwight. This is one gimmicky game that I don't think will receive the future programming facelift that all of 17 people in the world are begging for. Wait a minute. What's that?
    80:19
    Huh? Oh. My apologies. I miscounted. 16 people. Burn them to the ground! It's time to open your wallet, but I assure you I will be gentle as we go over this week's deal of the week. Bye-bye-bye! A little something different here. Your deal of the week this week is a little information. A nice reframing for you to chomp around on this week.
    80:44
    There are many deals out there to be had right now. No, I'm not crazy. Just follow me for a second. Think about the good old times pricing. Maybe a couple of years ago when you could snag a used Stern Pro for $4,500, $4,800, with a new in-box street value of about $5,300. Is that fair? Okay, so when I see some lightly pre-owned newer Stern Pros going in the high fives, that's a deal. It's time to face the music, people. Stern Pros are $6,900. Look, this differential compared to the former good old times example is much greater. Once we realize that prices have changed for everything in pinball, then we can come to terms with the new definition of deal of the week. Buy, buy, buy! Let's give you a specific example here. If we turn to Pennside, outside of Glendale, California, shit's expensive over there as it is. We find ourselves in Avengers Infinity Quest Pro. Purchased new in the box, not even a year ago. Only been played in the home use. Includes the lighted Jim Shooter rod, for God's sakes. All new Titan rubbers and a shaker motor included. This comes from Mike Eats Sparkies, outside of Glendale, California, and he's selling it for $5,900. If you all keep tripping yourself up with two years ago and thinking this thing can be had for upper fours, lower fives, you're going to miss out on these deals. This is a $1,000 difference from new in-box prices, of which is hard to get in the first place. Low plays, $300-plus worth of mods already on it. Nice mods, I might add. This is a deal of the week. Buy, buy, buy! Not getting any cheaper, people. I'd value this pinball machine at $6,500. By the first of the year, $6,900. And if you're screaming at your radio right now, I apologize, but your screams will be heard in this week's deal of the... What is going on?
    82:40
    Yeah, WTF to this listing. Go on Pinside right now. We're going to stick in California here. We had a deal over there, but now we have something so much less outside of San Jose, California. Listed by username Shiny. S-C-H-E-I-N-Y Shiny. Shkiny listing a Lord of the Rings premium? For all of you that are not familiar, there was no premium model of Lord of the Rings, but it's semantics, not a big deal. Item description, collector's quality, Lord of the Rings like no other. Check out the sold listings for the $15,000 that recently sold that didn't even have the brass kit, nor was it here in the San Francisco Bay Area, where we have a lot of pinheads and a lot of money. I'm in Indiana! So I'm going to tip my cap to this Lord of the Rings brass trim kit that was done by the late Mike Chestnut, making it look like an LE. But looks can be deceiving here because where the brass work is still looking stunning and the game is clean, it has some pretty cool mods on it. That sword mod over the lock ramp, gotta have it. What I'm tripping up on, number one, is the price. $15,000? This isn't an LE, people. No, no, no, no, no, no. No LE here. I don't even know if LEs are going for $15,000 right now. But if you look closer, I was looking at pictures and I thought, wait a minute. This is an LE. I looked at the back glass. It's got the gold bearded dong in it and everything. This is an LE. What does this guy know? What? Huh? Read a little closer. And it says LE Translite. LE Translite? What the fuck? Somebody really took the time to print off a copy of the original Ellie back glass with gold foiling to make a trans light? This is madness. When will it end? No. By principle alone, this is a sell, sell, sell. Sell, sell, sell. Even if this was just normal priced. No. Too sneaky. I don't like the sneakiness. Makes me feel like you're hiding something. Tsk, tsk. Can't even get Penn Stadiums. Fake Penn Stadium lighting with adjustable brightness. Anytime you list something, try not to use words that are derogatory towards the product you're trying to sell. Words like fake or looks like an LE. Hey, Scanny from San Jose, you've got a pretty game here. You're valuing this LE Translight for $200. First off, why? Second, I'll give you $100 if you send me a video burning it to the ground. Burn them all! I hope you have a nightmare tonight of a ringwraith coming to get you. I still can't get over the sound that Frodo makes when he gets stabbed.
    85:22
    Something tells me Frodo likes that. Tune in next week to hear about the ever-changing market tides and what in pinball will be brought back ashore. As always, I'm just here to report the facts because numbers don't lie on pinball market trends. And don't hate the forecaster, hate the market game.
    85:43
    All right, Dennis, that's it. That's episode 81. That was a big one. It felt good. A lot of changing marketplace stuff there. Yeah, there's so many markets. A new format. It was a little bit, yeah. It was so different. Maybe the listeners will find it refreshing. I think they found that Godzilla scream refreshing. That could be. That poor little girl that had the cameo in the background could have almost won.
    86:08
    Your dad did that to you. I'm sorry, little girl. where can people catch you between now and a couple weeks from now they can always email eclectic gamers podcast at gmail.com or go to facebook.com slash eclectic gamers podcast and shoot a message and i will get it oh nicely done i think in two weeks we have a big announcement for tpn i think i'm putting in the books damn it it should happen it should definitely happen people are going to find out about it before then but we will discuss it more in two weeks You can reach me at the pinball network at gmail.com. If you have any messages for David Dennis, for Dennis Creasel, for George Fisher, any of our executive committee or whoever helps run this damn TPN show, you can email us there and I'll forward that to the responsible parties. And you can catch me on Straight Down the Middle pinball show. We did the promo for CGC's Cactus Canyon. Had a lot of fun with that. We recorded another piece and fully edited it and did everything I could to get it out. and it's not going to come out until sometime TBA. So that's going to be held for now. Have some really fun holiday stuff going on straight down the middle, so stay tuned. Follow, like, and subscribe there, as well as the Pinball Network. Sponsor plug this week is always Flippin' Out Pinball, showcasing this week Elvira's 40th anniversary special edition. How about that? Get you some. We still have a couple spots, Dennis. A couple spots. Just saying. Elvira Premium gets run over 12 months from now it's a long time Elvira 40th gets made in the next 2 weeks can be at your house unboxed and prettier than anything I'm just saying you're just a truth seeker and for that big ass baller out there I want to know who's going to buy the number 40 you haven't sold that yet? no, I haven't really been pushing it because I'm trying to talk Nicole and let me open it and she's like you are out of your mind yeah, I wouldn't, Zach that's for selling that's like the China that's just to be on display that's just for guests I know you get Chinette so if you want the topper, you want the 40th anniversary you want a banner, be the big baller and contact us now at flippingoutpinball.com that's flip the letter N out pinball dot com or email me at Zach Z A C H at flip in out pinball dot com you can text me as well at 1 2 4 5 7 9 7 1 1 get yourself in queue for a Cactus Canyon an SE or SE Plus. As we're talking about, if you need a game before the Christmas or before the holidays, I can still get you a Star Wars The Pin comic. I can still get you, I believe, a Willy Wonka LE we have in stock. A Beatles Gold. I think we have a Beatles Gold hanging around. Maybe a Houdini. So there's still some options out there as well as arcade games too. Do me a favor, listener. Go follow, like, and subscribe to the Flippin' Out Facebook page because that's where I'm going to update you with a bunch of accessories that we just got in that I haven't had time to even go through yet. But I can tell you one thing. If you've been looking for, I don't know, a Stranger Things topper, a Deadpool topper still, we've got them, as well as all kinds of banners. Godzilla banners are in. Woo-hoo! Mandalorian banners in. Escalera is still not in. You can also find on our Facebook page the show specials that we may have at Cincinnati on December 3rd through the 5th. Facebook is our communication tool that we cannot put up on the website. So follow that. Last week at TPN, we had a lot of exciting streams. It's almost like we need one place that we can put all of these streams so that people can watch them together. Right, Dennis? Yeah, like in a book. Oh, in a book, an antique book?
    89:45
    Yeah, books made of paper, also known as antiques. I think at this point, yeah, all books are considered antiques. Yeah, they're basically the 45s of books. Oh. The 45s of media, the book. We also got last week the – I want people to listen to that Triple Drain podcast with you on it. That was good. Oh, wow. That was a – it feels like that was so long ago. That was really good. I felt so bad for you guys, though. You were so wrong. It was like – it was precious and it was cute. It was like seeing a toddler trying to walk around, right, when you guys were talking about because there's an SE Plus on Cactus Canyon that the LE prices are going to go up. I was like, oh, market apprentices over there, Travis. Buddy, no, no.
    90:31
    It doesn't even logically make sense. The LE price isn't going to go up when there's the equivalent to the same. Just play it back, listen to it, realize how wrong you are. No, you're still not making any sense with your claim. I am. You guys were done wrong. No, the LE is the same price as the SE Plus, but it had way more stuff in it. Therefore, now the value proposition of the LE was even better than it was before. Thus, the LE price is now more valuable.
    91:00
    Yeah, see, that doesn't work because the reason Attack from Mars LE with that topper is so much money right now, it's because of that topper. Well, I understand where you're coming from on it, but there are so many other add-ons that the LE with the additional sculpted plastics on the Cactus Canyon, That wasn't the case with the attack from Mars. Yeah, people care about the topper. That's what they care about. No, I understand that. But my thought was there's still so much more feature-wise, toy-wise in the LEs that that would be enough to drive its value up more vis-a-vis just a, you know, here's the standard with the topper. Oh, and we charge the same exact price as the LE. Holy cow. And at the time, bear in mind, we did not hear anything about the SE pluses being limited. Cactus Canyon LE would have sold, if there was no SE Pluses, Cactus Canyon LE would have easily sold for $15,000, if not more, on the secondary market for the considerable future. Now that there's an SE Plus with that same topper in the main feature of said LE, you're not going to see that price. I just don't see that. Sorry. I know we've seen some obscene topper prices. I've never seen a topper drive a game up $5,000 on the secondhand market. Sea Attack from Mars. Nope.
    92:22
    You're too old to begin the training. Sorry. So we had Triple Drain last week. Also make sure to check out the VOD of Bex, Jen, Taylor, and Kelly as they tried to defeat Reactor 9. You can find that on the VOD at Fliptronic Streaming. But coming up on TPN, we have some exciting stuff going on over at Pinballers, twitch.tv slash pinballers. They're having their third annual 12 Strikes of Christmas tournament on December 11th. Ho, ho, ho. And before that, tonight, a major, major TPN event can be found on Don't Panic Flip. George and the gang are having another iron pinball battle. This time, a tag team special on Godzilla. It's Don't Panic Flip with one of the greatest pinball players on the planet, Asher Lefkoff, versus TPN's very own Flip-Tronic and their friend who just so happens to be yet another one of the greatest pinball players on the planet, Texas' very own Colin McAlpine. 9 o'clock Central on twitch.tv slash don'tpanicflip. Make sure to like, follow, and subscribe to the Pinball Network. On your favorite podcatcher, we've got a final round pinball podcast coming up with a very, very throwback special guest that you will not want to miss. All right, Dennis, thanks for bearing with me, buddy. It's always great talking to you. It's almost like I don't even want to do shows in between because I can't do them without you. There are a whole skew of guests lined up volunteering. Why does that hot dog have mayonnaise on his head? I don't know. It's so strange. It's like vanilla bean ice cream or something. It's got dot. For Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Minney. And folks, if you need a monster scream, really consider exploiting your children and taking advantage of that. Basically, think of your kids as a .81 update to what you could do. And always practice safe pinball and stop screaming at the child. She is not deaf. She's just Japanese. Have a good week, everyone. Daddy made you your favorite open wide. Here comes the content.
    94:31
    It's a beautiful day to stay inside. Let me just put this in as an aside for you, Zach. I don't know if it binds your gears like it does mine, where people who ride on riding lawnmowers refer to them as tractors, like they're fucking farmers. Yes. I never understood that. No. I don't even care if it says John Deere on it. You're riding a lawnmower. It's not a tractor. You don't have a CDL. Quit acting like you're a badass. That's right. It's a lawnmower. I don't fault you for using a riding lawnmower, but don't act like you're out there harvesting wheat. I think the criteria for a tractor, it has to have one set of wheels, at least one set of wheels that is five foot tall. That's a tractor. Yeah, I just, I mean, I just expect it to like do farming stuff. That's what I expect. Instead of culminating your leaves in the yard? Yeah, instead of chopping some blades of grass. I think I can get yourself a hot dog with mayonnaise