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Episode 265: Roger Sharpe reflects

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·1h 3m·analyzed·Jun 22, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.027

TL;DR

Roger Sharpe honors Steve Epstein and reflects on fatherhood, family, and pinball history.

Summary

Roger Sharpe reflects on Father's Day, his relationship with his late friend Steve Epstein, his own father and stepfather, and parenting his sons Josh and Zach. The episode covers personal memories, the history of the Broadway Bar and Arcade, and Steve's role in the pinball community.

Key Claims

  • Roger lost his father when he was 13 years old

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe, directly stated in interview

  • Roger's stepfather (Papa Paul) was a major positive influence in his life

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe, personal reflection during interview

  • Roger began his writing career at Gentleman's Quarterly magazine

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe, discussing his career path

  • Steve Epstein was instrumental in creating the Silver Ball Cafe concept with Roger

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe, discussing business ventures with Steve

  • The Century Club required 50 years in the pinball industry as initial membership criterion, later relaxed to 25 years

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe, explaining Century Club history

  • Steve Epstein headed the Century Club for approximately the last two or three years before it fell apart

    medium confidence · Roger Sharpe, recalling Steve's leadership role

  • Roger and Ellen met on November 14th and married on the same date

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe, personal family detail

  • Roger's son Zachary and son Joshua's wedding anniversaries fall on the birthdays of Roger's parents

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe, describing coincidence of dates

Notable Quotes

  • “Every day is Father's Day with our great kids.”

    Jeff Lee @ ~7:30 — Captures the episode's thematic sentiment about fatherhood beyond the single day

  • “If you are blessed to still have your father, whatever your relationship has been, good, maybe not so good. Tomorrow is a day to really celebrate that time with that person.”

    Roger Sharpe @ ~32:00 — Roger's heartfelt Father's Day message, reflecting on his early loss of his own father

  • “He was my brother from another mother. We just kind of blended and hit it off instantaneously.”

    Roger Sharpe @ ~55:00 — Roger's description of his profound friendship with Steve Epstein

  • “Scottie Pippen really needed Michael Jordan. The two of them together were blessed to be a force that was unshakable. And I think that you know with Steve and I it was much the same.”

    Roger Sharpe @ ~56:00 — Roger uses analogy to describe the symbiotic nature of his partnership with Steve Epstein

  • “I said no. He looked at me, stunned, and I said, nope, you're too good for her.”

    Roger Sharpe @ ~24:00 — Humorous moment recalling when Roger's stepfather asked permission to marry his mother

Entities

Roger SharpepersonSteve EpsteinpersonJeff LeepersonJosh SharpepersonZach SharpepersonEllen SharpepersonSteve KordekpersonDave EpsteinpersonAl Simonperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Episode centers on tributes to Steve Epstein and the historical significance of the Broadway Arcade as a pinball mecca and test location for new games

    high · Extensive discussion of Broadway Arcade's role, Steve's leadership in establishing it as a hub, and the cascading effects on the modern pinball tournament and operator systems

  • ?

    historical_signal: Roger discusses the early structure of pinball distribution on East Coast through Al Simon and Dave Epstein's partnership dating to 1930s

    high · Roger's account: 'Al Simon was legendary as being one of the main distributors on the East Coast going back really to the 1930s and being one of the power brokers'

  • ?

    community_signal: Roger characterizes his relationship with Steve Epstein as foundational partnership, using Michael Jordan/Scottie Pippen analogy to describe symbiotic professional and personal bond

    high · Roger: 'He was my brother from another mother... Michael Jordan... would not have been the same Michael Jordan without Scottie Pippen'

  • ?

    business_signal: Roger and Steve Epstein attempted to develop Silver Ball Cafe concept, scouting multiple locations but venture did not materialize

    high · Roger: 'We worked very hard and diligently together to start a concept called the Silver Ball Cafe... looked at properties in Connecticut... White Plains, Mount Kisco area, down in New Jersey'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Broadway Arcade experienced relocation and operational challenges; second location on 42nd Street near 8th Avenue did not perform as expected and 'ran its course'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.184

0:00
it's time for another pinball profile i'm your host jeff teals you can find our group on facebook we're also on pinballprofile.com you can find everything there past episodes subscribe to your podcatcher and more check us out on instagram and twitter at pinball profile and emails pinballprofile at gmail.com happy father's day well it's only fair i talked to ellen sharp for Mother's Day. Time to bring on Roger. And I'm doing this for a couple of reasons. Because, of course, yeah, we had Ellen on. But secondly, you were recently on Loser Kid Podcast and also with Nate Shivers on Coast to Coast Pinball. And I felt it was extremely rude of both of those shows to only give you three hours to speak.
0:49
How dare they cut you off, Roger? And I think that that was only for a single question and a three-hour answer. So, you know, you're totally correct.
1:01
Well, I'm recording this not digitally. I have a reel-to-reel machine in the background. I've got six hours of tape here, so hopefully we can get it all in. Thank God. The Memorex is rolling then, right? Good. Exactly.
1:14
How are you doing? I know it's been a very, very tough week for you, and I can't tell you how surprised and how much I appreciate the lovely message you gave to the Pinball Profile listeners about your wonderful friend Steve Epstein. Thank you. Yeah, it's been difficult and interesting, and I will share something with you because it just shows you, I guess, during these times how unsettled at least it is for me to know what days and dates there are. And having had contact with Steve literally from the beginning of all of this, but it was last week, Wednesday. So the middle of that week and talking to Steve and, you know, come on, we can get through this and all the rest of it. And he was still in the hospital then. We were talking about the treatments and whatever. And I made it a point to send an e-card to both of my boys for Father's Day, Father's Day on June 14th. And my thought was, you know, I just want Stevie to hold on so that he can be there for Father's Day and realize that, you know, I was wrong. I was off by a week. And then, you know, the eventuality of, you know, a few days after. But, you know, being so totally discombobulated. I mean, Zachary's coming to me and Ellen and I had a chance to go and visit with both families. I was wondering when I got the email, what were you thinking? Well, I wanted it to be, I was specific. I needed it to be delivered on the 14th, the first thing in the morning for Happy Father's Day. I have done that as well, Roger. I don't know why. You know why I think we're both fathers? I think because every day is Father's Day with our great kids. Oh, I like that. Well, really, like I don't need a day to celebrate Father's Day. You know, my wife asked me, what do you want to do on Father's Day? And I'm like, just be with the kids, be with the family. That's it. I mean, I have no, I need anything or anything like that. You know, let's just have a nice meal, sit out back and do whatever we do, play some games. Well, in my context of things recently over the past couple of years, it's always been, so do the three of us get a chance to go out and play golf? Do you guys get permission? Maybe like nine holes or something. And, you know, that's been the case. And obviously, you know, last year was Zachary's first Father's Day. And it was like, all right, not going to bother. You guys do. And B, you know, you and Crystal and Benson, yes, that's fine. And, you know, with Josh, you know, wanting to be able to celebrate with the children, with Colin and Charlotte, now Evan. So it becomes a little bit different. And obviously this year is going to be totally different. It's not as if, hi, let's all get together and who's going to grill or who's going to do whatever or do we do multiple visits here, there or whatever. So, you know, as everybody gets older and they have their lives, I don't want to interfere. But, you know, to your point, yes, every day is Father's Day. And every day I feel blessed for having been the father that I have been and the boys that I have. So, you know, it's all good. Not that it's about this, but just out of curiosity, is there a favorite Father's Day gift that might come to mind? Wow, that's a good question. I can't answer that myself because... It's probably better asked of the boys. I honestly don't remember. I remember, and we can all joke about this, ha ha ha, that it was a couple of years ago on my birthday that I lost my flip phone. Not literally. I was given an iPhone. and so that stands out because obviously, or maybe not for people listening, I'm on an iPhone now. Wow. And I actually kind of know how to use some of the different things and other times I'm pleading with Josh or Zachary to help me. What do I press? What do I do? I'm trying to think of what kind of, you know, I will share with you. And it tends to be more birthday than Father's Day, but the visits, the surprise visits from my dear friend Steve. Nice. It always involved golf. It probably was at particular moments in time, some birthdays, it ended in a zero. We don't have to get into the first digits.
Papa Paulperson
Lionel Martinezperson
Dale Epsteinperson
Ericaperson
Broadway Bar and Arcadegame|venue
Silver Ball Cafeproduct
IFPAorganization
Gentleman's Quarterlycompany
Pinball Wizardsevent
Playmeter magazinecompany
Century Cluborganization

high · Roger: 'when it was reopened, not necessarily as the Broadway Arcade on 42nd Street near 8th Avenue, that was not the best of locations for it. And that ran its course as well'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Epstein has passed away; episode is memorial tribute. He had been operating out of public view for extended period before recent interviews

    high · Repeated references to Steve's passing, Father's Day context, tribute montage, and Roger's statement: 'Steve kind of dropped away' and later involvement in interviews brought him back into visibility

  • ?

    content_signal: Multiple pinball podcasts (Loser Kid Podcast, Coast to Coast Pinball, Pinball Profile) have recently featured Steve Epstein interviews; significant media activity around his tribute

    high · Jeff Teals references Steve's appearances on other shows and notes this is third episode featuring discussion of Steve; multiple social media tributes noted

  • ?

    historical_signal: Century Club membership criteria evolved from 50-year requirement to 25-year requirement; organization eventually dissolved due to logistical difficulties coordinating members

    medium · Roger: 'You had to have been in the industry for 50 years... and then they kind of gave up with that a little bit, and suddenly it was 25 years... it fell apart because it was difficult to do it'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Roger references potential legal statute of limitations concerns for childhood incident involving unlicensed driving in Connecticut, indicating his awareness of regulatory frameworks

    low · Joking reference to one of sons possibly driving car without license 35+ years ago in Connecticut; Roger jokes about statute of limitations

    • 5:42
    I had a birthday this year that ended in a zero. There you go. Those are the ones that matter now. I'm like, okay, next year, 51 means nothing, but 50, yeah. Well, you know, and for me, being on the downside of a century, yeah, it makes it kind of difficult. And I used to think in terms of doubling, meaning, you know, if you're 40, oh, 80 seems reasonable. You know, 50, it's kind of borderline. And, you know, now that I'm well in excess of triple digits, it's kind of like that ain't going to happen short of, you know, being cryogenically kept somewhere in a freezer, but I don't want them to just put my head in there. So that's not going to happen. Oh, really? There goes my Father's Day gift. Damn it. Yeah, right. There you go. But, you know, it would be, hey, we're going to do golf. You get to do 18 holes and whatever, and we booked it for X number of people, and then suddenly it's like, where are you guys going? Oh, we're not playing. It would be Steve riding up in a golf cart. Nice. Where have you been? Are you serious? That's awesome. Thank you. And we did that on multiple occasions over the years and not always with a zero at the end. So I think that those are the things that I absolutely, totally remember and cherish in terms of my dear departed friend. That's kind of like a piece of me that's gone. And I feel badly for Dale, Erica, and the grandchildren, and Sandy, obviously, because tomorrow's going to be a different kind of day for them as they continue going through their grieving and mourning. Yeah, I received a lovely message from Dale, and I certainly think of the family and their sister Erica, and Dale's kids, too, by the way, Josh and Zach. I mean, we want to talk about how close your family is. I mean, the twins are named after your boys. That's super sweet, but they sent a note and appreciated hearing you and all the others with their wonderful tributes here on Pinball Profile and that we're seeing all across the web and really appreciate them. It's nice to see all the Facebook profile pictures of Steve and whoever that Facebook page is about. I think it's really, really sweet, but boy, oh, boy, we're even learning more. I mean, I'm glad you're on the program because there are things I didn't know about Steve. I mean, you have some great stories, but let me just quickly ask you. I didn't know, forgive me, about the Century Club. Yeah, I had forgotten until I saw that picture. Century Club, when it first started, and Steve Kordak absolutely did start it, with some of the old-timers, and you had to have been in the industry for 50 years. That was the starting point. And then they kind of gave up with that a little bit, and suddenly it was 25 years. It was like, okay, fine. and I started going there in the very beginning because I was still writing for Playmeter magazine. So I was covering it as, in quotes, a journalist, not necessarily as being a member, but, you know, got into talking and whatever. And since Stevie was always my wingman, it was like, come on, we can play games later. It's two o'clock on a Saturday or whatever the day would have been. Come on, we're going to go into the conference room. There's going to be, you know, the Century Club meeting. So it became part and parcel of the two of us kind of went in. Of course, Steve had stories to tell because of his dad, Dave, and Dave's partnership with Al Simon. And Al Simon was legendary as being one of the main distributors on the East Coast going back really to the 1930s and being one of the power brokers on the East Coast. So kind of fell into this naturally. And as things went and they opened it up to, you know, in quotes, a younger group of old people, The mantle and the baton were turned over to Steve, and Steve, yes, was heading up the Century Club, I think probably for about the last two or three years that we wound up doing it before it kind of fell apart. And I think it just fell apart because it was difficult to do it during the course of time where I was like, well, this one has meetings and this one isn't here today and so on. So some of the momentum was lost, but it was great to see. And I have to make some comment specifically to you, Jeff, in terms of what you had posted. I'll call it a poster for lack of a better way to describe it. But all of the collage, the montage of the various pictures was just absolutely outstanding because I'm looking at each and every one. And it's like there's a little memory here. There's a little piece here and there. And it is spectacular. It really is. So well, well, well done. Thank you, Roger. I was moved by seeing all those pictures. And I am not very good when it comes to computers as far as putting that together. It's very sloppy and all that kind of stuff. When I do final round and we do things where we Photoshop, it's all Marty Robbins. So this was me just kind of going, I'm going to push this here, here, here. And then the sad thing is you get it done, you put it up there, and then you see more and you're like, darn it, I would have liked to include that. So I knew I had another show to talk about Steve and this now a third one, which, you know what? Let's put it this way. If Steve was with us, there'd be several more shows with Steve on this program. So I'm fine doing that because he's a fascinating person. There's so much to find out. So I knew that I would be able to put these other photos that I missed in future episodes. So thanks very much. It's nice. And like I said, when Dale sent me that note, it meant a lot to me. And hearing what you're going to say about Steve, too, because I know as time passes, it gets easier. And when someone passes away in my life, whether it's my father almost 10 years ago, whether it's my best friend, whether it's my uncle, Jeffrey Douglas McLeish, the person I, Jeffrey Douglas Teolis, was named after, who was three years older than me and lived across the street, really a big brother, just happened to be an uncle. And when they passed away at young ages, their anniversary of the date comes up in which they passed. And it's something I don't really acknowledge because I don't want to remember the death. I want to remember their life. So I more celebrate the anniversary of their birthdays or special events that we had because I just find it helps me personally. I've mourned. But now that they're gone, I want to celebrate the life and I want all the good memories. And I find with time that passes, it breaks my heart when I see friends of mine and every anniversary of the death, they're posting something like how hurt they are. And I want to give them a hug and say, hey, you know what, let's celebrate the life and stuff. I mean, death is part of it, but that's my mechanism, if you will, for dealing with death is really the celebration aspect. And I find that happens with more people with time. Well, and I will share something with you. which is truly amazing and astounding in some bizarre twist of fate. And this is a personal thing that Steve related just at this moment. But from what you're saying, in the Jewish religion, you have something where it's a Yizkor service,
    12:49
    and it celebrates, or at least doesn't celebrate necessarily, but it memorializes the passing of a loved one, parent, child, God forbid, or whatever else. And it's not necessarily precisely on the date. It tends to be on the Jewish calendar date, and you wind up lighting a candle, and it's a yortzite candle. And you say a prayer, and I do that in terms of my parents and what have you. But when you talk about celebrating the birth, the actual dates, well, guess what, folks? Zachary's wedding anniversary is on the birth date of my father. Joshua's wedding anniversary is on the birth date of my mother. Wow. This is not something that was done. In all honesty, I thought my dad's birth date was different. And so I re-looked at the headstone and said, oh my God, can't believe it. So the celebration of both of my son's wedding anniversaries, for me, has a double meaning because it's a celebration of the birthday of both of my parents. That's sweet. I got married to my wife, Anne. Anne is my second wife. I've been with Anne for over 10 years now. We got married specifically by design on my grandparents' wedding anniversary. Oh, that's awesome. Our wedding anniversary is actually New Year's Eve, and I remember asking my grandpa, here we are on Father's Day talking about dads and stuff, I remember asking my grandpa, one of the most loved men in my life, I said, why did you get married on New Year's Eve?
    14:24
    My grandpa came from Italy, and he said, that way I always remember to party and celebrate. If you think of how many people forget their anniversaries and important dates, you're not going to forget that one, so good on you, grandpa. yep well and ellen and i uh met on november 14th which of course uh follow your grandpa's advice although not for new year's but i made certain that when we got married uh that it was going to be on november 14th so i can remember both dates smart so it's kind of indelible in that regard yeah this was before iphones would remind you everyone listening right now of important dates and stuff like that uh i haven't learned that one yet oh god i still have my at a glance Yeah, you're just finding out about Angry Birds. You're way behind. But anyway, that's fine, Roger. That's okay. Talking about parents and we going to get back to Steve in a second but as we talking about parents I don know much about your parents and your dad I know you came from the south side of Chicago Your thoughts about your father Well, that is a question that does not get asked of me all that much. The reason I ask is because we know that Josh and Zach, in many ways, have followed in the footsteps of their father, but you obviously took a different path. So I'm wondering what your father thought about the direction you're going, whether it's writing, whether it's pinball. Wow. Well, my own father, unfortunately, I lost when I was 13 years old. I didn't know that. I'm sorry, Roger. No, no, no. And I will absolutely remember him tomorrow. Not that I don't remember him at various points in time. I wish that I had more time with him. And I say this for anybody and everybody who is listening. If you are blessed to still have your father, whatever your relationship has been, good, maybe not so good. Tomorrow is a day to really celebrate that time with that person. If there's been a point where you've had some separation. I am talking about Father's Day, and on Father's Day, please, if you've had some difficulties with your dad, make amends. Take the lead. Be the one to be gracious. Be the one to do the outreach. And if you are blessed to have a great relationship with your dad, make it a point today just to let him know, just to hear the words. Speaking as a father, you have no idea what that means. It means a real lot. And I say that because, unfortunately, losing my own dad at such a young age, I did not have the chance to say and do and be with him to the way that I would have loved to, having said that. And this may sound a bit strange in the context of what I just said. I was incredibly blessed to have a stepfather. The boys knew him as Papa Paul, who was truly one of the lights of my life. My mother got lucky to find an incredible man. We don't have to go into details because there's therapy and things for it, but he actually asked me for permission to marry my mother. The boys will potentially cringe and laugh at what I'm about to say, But I said no. He looked at me, stunned, and I said, nope, you're too good for her.
    17:40
    But if I could have had a wish and a prayer, it would have been to have both men in my life. In some ways, my stepfather actually knew my dad or knew of him. They were in the same line of work, which was the clothing business. But, yeah, I think that my dad, and I guess we can use it in multiple, probably would have enjoyed. I think that with my stepfather specifically, he kind of joked. I knew I wanted to be a writer, and he had clothing stores, very successful ones, and had envisioned giving the stores to me.
    18:16
    And when he realized that that wasn't going to happen, that's when he decided, well, then what the hell am I doing staying in Chicago for another winter? And he and my mother had bought a house in Florida, which I still have, and traveled around the world and did other wonderful and delightful things. But there's one observation, which was somewhat humorous at the time, was when I began my career at Gentleman's Quarterly magazine. And his comment was, so you couldn't get away from clothing, could you? Well, that's a good point, Roger. We look at how we saw what Josh and Zach and how influenced they were with your gaming background. You were influenced by your stepfather in the clothing aspect, and now writing for GQ. That's amazing. It's interesting to see how much influence parental figures and, you know, for young boys, their fathers are. Well, absolutely. And I think that, you know, either directly, indirectly, in some way, shape, or form, we do have an influence. And, you know, today is that day to acknowledge, either positively or in some ways make amends for whatever our influences have been. I'd like to think that mine have all been relatively positive. I know that there's been a few different video things, documentaries, newscasts, some of them absolutely with Stevie, where I kind of wind up breaking out a tear or two and he's there hugging me and saying, it's kind of like, it's okay, it's okay. Because I'd like to think that through whatever I wind up saying or doing, that number one, the boys are not overly embarrassed by their father, that they kind of accept grudgingly the kind of psychotic person that I am, that it's all okay. Roger, it is every father's right to embarrass your kids, and I tell my kids that all the time, which is probably why they don't bring friends around. Repeatedly? Yes. It's okay to do it every once in a while. I get that. All right. Do you know what's funny? If you were to ask my sons and Carson would say, what's the one thing that bothers you most? For sure it's that I could potentially embarrass them at any time. So, you know, how fragile teenagers are and stuff. So, okay, I get it. But I also realize it's going to come full circle. They'll do it to their kids. They'll also appreciate it. And it's a sign of affection, really. Well, and it's the meaning of the day today. It truly is. It is an entire time to just celebrate, be embarrassed by, be gratified with, and grateful for the fact that there is a father. And what we all mean in our own strange ways, and whether or not we're the Robert Young father knows best father, the Ozzie Nelson father, or some of the more recent vintage fathers. Homer Simpson. probably is a little bit closer to reality and truth yes sure so uh yeah well because it is father's day and because it is a rite of passage let's embarrass your sons right now shall we sure please i'll throw you a softball here i'm sure you have a great tale of josh and zach and something embarrassing that they don't want anyone to know and by the way i saw that video of you and zach on that game show. That was pretty good. That was all right. That was the Pinball Wizards. Yeah, it was funny. Jeff Parsons posted it on Pinball Players Broadcast. It was pretty funny. We got flown to Florida because it was at Universal Studios down there, the theme park and stuff. Yeah, kind of crazy. I think it was Florida. It could have been California for all I remember. Zachary probably remembers. And then Joshua within a minute. God, you know, it's kind of crazy to look back and see just, you know, how they were as small little people. Yeah. Embarrassing? I don't know. Let me count the ways. Could it be the time when Zachary forced Joshua to cut his hair? Oh, I don't know. That might be one. When they were young, came home, and it was like, really? And I grabbed Joshua, told him never to do that again, and took him to a barber shop because I wanted to have them shave his head. And it wasn't totally shaved. Could it be the time? And we'll let you pick up on this one, Jeff, at some future point. Let me leave it this way. Could it have been, might it have been either Josh or Zach who somehow sat in a car when we were living in Cheshire, Connecticut, put the car into gear and had it roll down the driveway because we had an incline and had it crash into the mailbox. Could that have been something that either of my boys might have done? No, couldn't be that they would do anything like that. How does the police come? It was like, how the hell did that happen? What's the statute of limitations for driving without a license? Is it Connecticut? I'm just going to have to make some calls. Yeah, really. I have to believe that it has to be at least 35 years, so we're still within that statute for them to be hit with it. No, I mean, you know, I kind of delight in terms of the memories of the boys, and I've gotten to go through things. The boys tend to be unrelenting in regard to, I guess, chastising me for the fact that I'm an archivist and not a hoarder, and both of them tending to have a short life cycle in regard to things that they have acquired over the years. I know that trophies and things they tend to hold on to, but, you know, there's other things that they get rid of. Ellen and I have started getting into a point of going through old photographs, and I've been putting together albums for them as gifts because I think that that would be a nice remembrance of stuff. so that's what we've been doing and that's what I've been getting back in return from them as well which is marvelous and wonderful various pictures and things because by and large in this day and age everything's put on Facebook everything is done digitally and I like having stuff in frames and pictures and stuff that you can hold on to I did remind my boys just recently of when they were young and I'm sure Josh and Zach were no different in fact I know it was the case where as boys do, they might fight once in a while and really beat the living hell out of each other. So my boys were, I would say, under the ages of seven, and they're in the backseat of the car, and I'm picking them up for the weekend because they're with their mom, and she said to me, good luck. They've been fighting the whole way here. And I'm like, oh, okay, all right. Well, come on, guys, get in the car. I'm talking to their mom, and they're going at it, going at it, and I'm like, guys, you can't do that. I've got an hour drive here, and it's distracting me, and we can get in an accident. So we're still in the parking lot, and they're still going at it. And I went, all right. I picked up the young one, Brady. I said, come with me. I held his hand and walked out. I opened the trunk. I said, get in. And he goes, what? And I go, I can't have you fighting. It'll cause an accident. And I'm sitting there so calm. And Carson's in the backseat. Are you trying to murder him?
    25:12
    And I just laughed. So that kind of put the fear of God in them a little bit. So funny enough, they didn't fight. I don't know what kind of trauma that caused. That was the thing that drove me nuts the most. It's just the fighting in the back seat. And I remember going to a drive-in movie one time with them. All right, so it's getting kind of dark out. We're driving, and this drive-in is out in a country road. And they're doing it again. I'm like, guys, stop, stop, guys, stop, stop, stop. Several times. Finally, I just pull over on the dirt road. I'm like, all right, guys, get out. I'll meet you there. They're like, what? I'm like, just get out. I can't, you know, just keep walking straight. It's another mile or so. Oh, wow. They're like, what? I'm like, it's that or we're going to crash, one or the other.
    25:53
    Maybe I'm not the parent of the year and people have already called Children's Aid Society or whatever it is in the States, but they're fine. They're fine. No one taught me how to parent, Roger. Trust me, neither did I. And Seth can attest to the fact that my big thing with him, which I carried over to both Josh and Zach when they were younger, was my flicking. Flicking with my middle finger that goes through wood. Oh, wow. Don't get me angry. I will flick here. Here's just a slight little flick against the skin. All right? Feel it? I just did it to myself. They do hurt. It can hurt. And Seth, you know, when he was little, was like, don't get me angry. I will flick. And it goes through wood. Now, does it? Of course not. But, yeah, I mean, that was the fear of God. I did not believe in corporal punishment, per se. No. So they would have been horrified when they saw that pinball machine flicker. They must have run to the hills. Yeah, right. Like, I didn't think of that. But, yes, you're probably correct. Very, very funny. Ah, memories. That's what, you know what, and it's good that we do these kind of podcasts and stuff. And I've asked people to listen to an old episode. I didn't say I'm that old. Really, it's back in November with Steve Epstein. I know you were really proud of that one. It's one of my favorite ones ever because I got to learn a lot about the history of Steve. And you're on the program right now. And I know you have more stories to tell about Steve and things that I don't know about. Innumerable ones. I think that, you know, let me just make an observation because Steve was kind of out of the limelight for a while. You know, even with modern pinball and we don't have to get into some of the difficulties that existed between Steve Zoller and Steve in regard to running the business and so on. But, you know, Steve kind of dropped away. And, you know, the closing of the Broadway Arcade did not go the way that he or I would have wanted it to be. And when it was reopened, not necessarily as the Broadway Arcade on 42nd Street near 8th Avenue, that was not the best of locations for it. And that ran its course as well. You know, we tried to create, well, we worked very hard and diligently together to start a concept called the Silver Ball Cafe. There's a great business plan that we did. We looked at properties in Connecticut, looked at properties in and around, I won't say upstate New York because people will assume that means Syracuse, but in areas in White Plains, Mount Kisco area, down in New Jersey, to see about opening up what we thought was going to be this wonderful and brilliant concept. Yeah, you know, it's just interesting looking back at the trajectory not only of our friendship, but also Steve's life and the fact that in some ways, grudgingly, he kind of came out of the cocoon and had the opportunity to be redefined, I guess, is a way that I might describe it. So folks like you and others that interviewed him, the times where we sat down and it tended to be a pinball expo, and it's like, go, let's, all right, we'll do it together. But you're going to do the majority of talking, Steve. And just to have everybody understand and appreciate, even if they had never visited the Broadway Arcade, we're not aware of the magnitude of the palatial palace that it was, this mecca. Yeah, you know, and our history, obviously, with creating Papa, you know, the fact that he was willing to be my guinea pig along with the late Lionel Martinez, who no one ever talks about, but I've always appreciated the fact that the three of us were able to create something that has kind of lived on. The IFPA, which I had wanted Steve to head up, but the industry at that time, politically speaking, that didn't happen, but it was the perfect merge. Here we have this proven system, this proven enterprise. We do leagues. We are doing tournaments. You know, Steve bought in wholeheartedly, and I've said the statement. You know, he was my brother from another mother. We just kind of blended and hit it off instantaneously. And I think in some ways I probably lived vicariously through him as if the arcade was my business. And I had no financial piece of it at all. But it was just like, you need to become a test location. Huh? No, that was brilliant. I'm tired of driving to New Jersey to see new games. Come on, I'll set you up. And going to trade shows together. You know, it was like if people were fans of basketball and the Chicago Bulls and had watched any of the last dance, you know, Michael Jordan, yes, was Michael Jordan, but he would not have been the same Michael Jordan without Scottie Pippen. And conversely, you know, Scottie Pippen really needed Michael Jordan The two of them together were blessed to be a force that was unshakable And I think that you know with Steve and I it was much the same And for people who really knew us, and my sons can attest to it, we were like bickering old women from time to time in terms of some of the things. You want to go here? What do you want to do over here? We were really kind of like peanut butter and jelly. We just kind of fit together and very competitive. I will say that. Absolutely. Okay, so you're peanut butter and jelly, and you did mention somebody else that you're right. We don't talk a lot about. If you're peanut butter and jelly, what was Lionel Martinez? Because I don't know much about Lionel. Lionel had to be the bread.
    31:18
    Whether it was white bread, rye, sourdough, however you make your peanut butter and jelly, Lionel was one of the regulars at the Broadway Arcade. And understand, the ritual was very simple. Number one, once you visited there on some level of frequency, and Steve was always there with a smile on his face, you know, the change apron around his waist. We've talked about this, and people have heard it. It is absolutely true. Without even looking, just by touch, he could give you an instantaneous dollar and quarters. If you gave him a dollar, if you tried to break his balls and gave him a five or a ten, it didn't matter. Without blinking, he'd rip off the singles or tear them off in some way in one piece. And, you know, yeah, so, yeah, why don't you give me back three singles and $2.25? Okay. Now, he could be playing pinball with one hand, cradling the ball in the flipper and do that. Amazing. He could do it multiple ways and times and whatever. $10 bills didn't daunt him. But, you know, the biggest thing was by being there as frequently as I wound up being there, there came that point in time, incredibly memorable. and I know that it was said during a service that was done virtually of gaining entry into the inner sanctum. That meant something. Yeah. Because I'd come in and I had my shoulder bag and, you know, if it was winter, I had my coat and put everything on the ground and move it from, you know, one pinball machine to another. And for people who have seen me at various trade shows, I still do the same. I mean, the shoulder bag goes down either underneath the game or just alongside of it as I play, and then I'll lift it and move it to the next game or the next booth. But, you know, when Steve said, here, why don't you bring it and put it in the back? And by then we kind of, it was like, hi, Steve, because he wound up seeing somebody frequently a couple of times a day over a period of a week or two. Suddenly it's like you're on a first-name basis, and then suddenly it was like, why don't you bring your stuff back here? It will be safe back here. And that's where the safe was. Yeah. My God. I mean, that's where everything was. And to be able to get Entree into the back room, that meant something. For sure. It meant something very, very special. So having said that, Lionel was one of the regulars as well. Lionel was a film editor working in that business and was just one of the people who were one of the regulars going to the Broadway arcade. And, you know, we started playing. and he became as much of a fixture as I was. Probably not to the same extent, the same frequency, but Lionel was there a lot, depending on whatever film he was working on. So when I came back from Bally Super Shooter in 77, it was like, okay, I'm a man on a quest and I need people. And I could not get a fourth. The best I could do with Steve, Steve was a natural because he was there all the time. Yep. Lionel was there frequently enough to say, all right, come on. And in all honesty, and I have the paperwork to back this up, Lionel was not the best player. He wasn't the worst, but he wasn't the best. But he was there. He was there. He was he was a warm body with a pulse and two hands with flipper fingers and cash. The prerequisites. And yeah, and we started on this noble quest. and you know steve went into it wholeheartedly and you know i i met a lot of people along the way when i was doing research on the book and all the rest of it back then and there was ron at game town in pinebrook new jersey and i encouraged steve to say all right let's we got to do a pilot thing oh god really well you know leo and walt can open up the arcade we'll go sunday morning but i was willing to schlep out of the city to meet with steve you You know, we'll buy bagels, we'll buy rolls or whatever else, and let's do this because we know that Ron's not going to do it. And let's just see if we can start a league outside of the couple of ones that we've just started in New York at the arcade. And, you know, it's like, Stevie, we can do this. It's okay. It's a little sacrifice. Sandy won't mind. Ellen won't mind. I think there were even times on a Sunday where I would drive down with the boys and Ellen so that they could hang out with Sandy and the girls, And then Stevie and I would head up to Pinebrook to babysit the league. So, you know, those are some of the things that we wound up being able to do together. You know, having Steve come out when I was designing Sharpshooter, I valued his input as a player and an operator. And Steve was the one, it was like, I know I want a dynamite explosion for the 50,000-point shot over here. What was it Steve liked about pinball machines, especially the ones you made? Was it the scoring? Was it the artwork? Was it the shots? or did it have to have certain features? You're talking about in general for the games that we really liked? Well, you came up with some of these ideas, and you said you took his input. So what were the things he was offering? The input specifically for Sharpshooter, he knew that it was based on my kind of redo homage for Free Fall Sky Jump. And the scoring-wise, whether or not he thought it was going to be too difficult originally, you had to get the drop targets down, and then the only way that you got a multiplier was going into the kick-out hole. He said, yeah, that ain't going to work. And I said, well, and I didn't have the memory storage for Snapper to do. I wanted there to be separate scoring if you were able to get the letters down in order, either right to left or left to right. And Steve said, yeah, that would be nice, but no. And then the sound. Steve came up with the galloping hooves for the spinner. Oh, wow. I was battling my brain. It was going to be like a machine gun or something, but I didn't like that. No, he said, no, the gunshots for the targets. I said, no, no, no, that definitely worked. So I wanted to do gunshots for the targets. But I was just grappling with, no, this is what you should do. And I was like, thank you, because that all tied it in. And then, admittedly, in the back glass, Z's Cafe is an homage to my Stevie. Steve, when he was growing up, and I guess his dear friend Mark Horowitz, who was a childhood friend, talked about the fact that Steve's nickname was Zelmo, because Steve played center. I guess he was taller than the other guys. And Zelmo Beatty. They just liked Zelmo Beatty, who was at that time playing for the St. Louis Hawks, that eventually became the Atlanta Hawks. So Steve's nickname was Zelmo. Well, I couldn't have it be Zelmo's Arcade. I couldn't call it the Broadway Arcade, not in the Wild West. No. So there is Z's Cafe, and that's an homage to Stevie. And then, obviously, we worked together on Las Vegas. Las Vegas? What game was that, Roger? Oh, no, it was a pinball machine. What? Las Vegas that Steve and I worked on. It had a roulette wheel in the center of the play field underneath the play field. Recess with a small little ball that would spin around. Like teed off or millionaire? Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, Las Vegas. Or as Steve Ritchie christened it when we brought it into Williams. Oh, you mean Las Bogas? Oh, no.
    38:21
    Yeah, and Barry Osler was given the task of turning our game from something not to be Las Vegas. and we lost the little mini spinning roulette wheel underneath and made some other changes to the game, and that game became Barracora. With Steve being as surprised as I was because we knew with Las Vegas it was seven letters. It was a three bank, and we have these other letters over here, so cowgirls? I don't know, three and five. I mean, we tried to come up with all sorts of stuff. I remember my reaction when I came out to Chicago. I had a business trip. I think anyway Stevie did not come for that trip. And I remember walking into the factory and going down the production line and from a distance seeing this very strange and bizarre visual of a woman's face but with like fish and things coming out of her head. And walking up and immediately instantaneously seeing that it was our play field. And the first thing that I noticed was, and I remember looking up to Steve Kordak, you didn't tell me we could double up a letter on a target. Why not? Stevie and I have been going through, I mean, you have no idea how many combinations and permutations of a three-letter word and a five-letter word. We didn't know that it could be a doubled-up letter. Sure, why not? Yep. Boy, I'm so glad that roulette wheel wasn't in that game. I find Barracora an absolutely perfect game. Well, yeah. I mean, Stevie and I really, I mean, I knew and he knew. We both did. We wanted resettable drop targets that had to be done in order because, of course, I couldn't do it on sharp. But that's where you first wanted to do it. Okay. We wanted to do something that was different than lane change. So we did multi-lane change because we had three lanes only. I was like, yeah, but Stevie, think of this. What do you think if we have like a right flipper goes to the left and a left flipper goes to the right, But you can only do it if you line up like one on the top or the bottom. Otherwise, oh, yeah. So it's like six lanes instead of three. It is brilliant. Those are the little touches that we wound up doing. When you first saw Mustang, you must have thought, okay, I know where they got that from. Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. Whether or not John was paying homage to that, I don't know. But, you know, those are the little delicacies that Steve and I had when it came to an appreciation of pinball, the playing that we did, and most recently in New Orleans. I mean, it was Steve and I kind of going at it. All right, let's see. What is it? That's two to one? Okay. That's three to two? It's four to four? Tiebreaker? I mean, yeah. And just are we going to play this one again or are we going to move on to this other one? What do you want to do, Stevie? Where are we going next? Come on, come on.
    41:16
    Or how terrible he felt last year at Pemberg because he did not perform at the level that he had hoped to. He had been practicing and whatever else, and I tried to explain to him, it's going to be a marathon. I'm just telling you right now. I've been here. I've done it before. I'm just telling you it is different than what we did in the old Papa days. Just telling you right now. And, yes, the old Papa days were definitely marathons, but this, we're older now, Stevie. Come on. Let's fess up. And I think it got to him. And the grousing and the bitching and the moaning that we all do. Oh, you know, I got on that game, and, I mean, it went straight down, and I couldn't flip. And I was all ready, and the other people in the group, everybody's not having a problem, and I'm having a problem. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I did a three and nine. I thought for sure when I saw what the game was going to be a nine and a three maybe even a perfect I could have done a 12. Stevie Stevie yeah yeah you know what we're doing this COVID thing right now and I wonder what kind of rust I'm gonna have too but that certainly is a lot more rust when it comes to competitive pinball but still you know we took this great sense of pride seeing that wow this thing sold out how quickly this is competitive pinball this is what we thought of seeing seeing what we had created you know a thousand years earlier and realizing it the legacy that that steve has the literally the millions of people uh whose lives he has touched uh is inestimable i mean it is just incredible and the the life experiences and memories that i have i mean we'll move away for like two seconds just on the golf course and the rounds of golf that we played and the competitiveness there and knowing that Steve was a better golfer than I was. I will absolutely unabashedly say that, but there were times where I beat him, which only got under his skin that much more. It was like, all right, if we were down in Florida, you know, when both of our mothers were still alive and we were doing our marathons of, you know, 36 holes, Harriet, Steve's mom, was up in Boca. My mom was in Margate, Adrian. And it would be like, all right, so we're going to start down at my mom's house, and we'll play at a course near here. The afternoon course will be up at Harriet's. We'll have dinner up there. The next day, the morning course will be by Harriet, and then the afternoon course will be by my mom. And we'd go back and forth like that, but there were times where it was like, we have to go back and play that course again. Why? Because. And I knew why the because was. Because you beat them. Yeah, maybe I had a 93 and maybe I had a 95. Maybe it was a putt here or there or a great chip shot. Geez, I get a 95, and I'm like, oh, boy, I still have four more holes. Yeah, right. Tell me. That's how I feel nowadays. But I still remember because I don't think that either of us would ever give in. I mean, that was one of the key things between us. And as I said, it was kind of like brothers. But I remember one time we had already played 36 holes, and it was still light out. And I was like, all right, let's play 54. Wow. And I am sucking wind after about two or three holes in. And it was like, Steve, I mean, we don't have to continue. And he just looked at me. No, I mean, you can continue to drive the cart and just watch me. And it was kind of like, well, screw you. No, I am playing. I don't care how much it hurts. I am playing. And we got through the 54 holes. And all I remember, and I do remember this. I remember that we finished and we were at Harriet's. And all I could think of, because the next day I had already booked for 36. Oh, boy. You guys are gluttons. Yes. All I could remember as I was going to sleep was, let it rain in the morning. Let it rain. Get me out of this. God listened. It did rain. And it was like, oh, Steve. Oh, darn. I was so hoping that we could play this morning.
    45:16
    Do you want to just head down to, you know, to my place, my mom's house? Hang out there because the weather's supposed to be nicer down there for the afternoon round. And I don't think that Steve ever, ever really revealed to me if he was feeling the same sense of relief that I was. He wasn't going to show that to you? No way. Well, no. I mean, on one of the courses, I hit a ball that was close to the water. It did not go in. And I'm walking over to my ball. There is an alligator by my ball. How close? Pretty damn close. close enough and i turned to steve and i said no i not hitting okay you can drop penalty stroke thank you Yes penalty stroke And we got into the clubhouse Wow And I told them I said over on whatever it was on number eight there an alligator over there Oh, yeah, you mean Vernon? Yeah, that's our alligator. Okay, thank you. Next time we ever come here again, which will never be ever, I'll remember that. But, yeah, Steve was certain to make sure that I had to take an extra stroke. I can't believe you did 54 holes. I've done 36 once. I've done 27 a few times. That's enough. For me now, 14 is the perfect amount. Nine's not enough. 18, I'm like, is it done yet? I'm really stinking here. But I can't imagine that. So let's just relay that for non-golfers into pinball, this marathon, this 54 holes of golf. They have things. The sanctum is legendary for it, 24 hours of pinball. Did any of that marathoning ever happen for you and for Steve for pinball? I was asked years ago by Bally because somebody was doing records, basically long playing records and whatever else, high scoring records, during the Pac-Man days and the Billy Mitchell days and whatever else, to see if anybody wanted to play. And I forget what it was. I think the record back then was like 20 hours straight. And it was like, nope. And Steve said, nope, don't want to. That's not to suggest that we hadn't played 20 hours straight ourselves, because we had, but the idea of just doing it just to do it that way, no. So I think for both of us, never even thought of like a 24-hour or a 48-hour. I mean, I understand that you can hold on to your bathroom break so that you can take a longer break if you're able to play for, I don't know, six hours or seven hours. But, you know, well, Steve and I became very feeble. I started joking to him about all the pain that he had. It's like, well, I have this back brace. You have your little knee guard thing. He just went through shoulder surgery like a year and a half ago or so, and it took him a while to get back into the swing of things. He was trying to get his golf game together. My hope had been that we'd be able to go back out, but to use the analogy that you just asked, Fifty-four holes of golf effectively was nonstop swinging at a little golf ball for about 7 o'clock in the morning, finishing at about 11, 11.30, racing over because we have a 12 o'clock or 12.30 tee time, finishing there at about 4 o'clock, 4.30, getting to the next course, or in this case we played back-to-back on the same, starting at about 5 and wanting to finish by about 8.30 before the sun goes down so you're not playing totally in the dark. So you are literally, other than driving somewhere in between for a short distance, you're playing and swinging a golf club nonstop for about 13, 14 hours. Okay, I haven't done that with golf. I may or may not in my youth have seen two or three back-to-back-to-back movies at a theater, and I think the theaters are closed down now, of course I would pay them back dearly, but of course I only paid admission for one. Is that the case with you in golf? Like, hey, this place says golf all day. Well, guess what? We're going to go at seven. We're going to be done at nine at night. Yeah, no, these were separate courses. And with the one, they called it a mulligan rate. So we got to play it again the same day at a half rate. So if it was $50, the next round was $25. But I do remember those kinds of movie experiences, specifically when I was living in New York, and we'd go to a Mel Brooks blowout, and you'd see five movies, and you'd make sandwiches and food at home and bring it in. So you didn't even buy their concessions, too. Boy, you know what? We're confessing a lot here, and I apologize. But I think, again, getting back to my dear buddy. Yeah, I mean, the life experiences that we had, the hotel rooms that we shared when we came out for trade shows and travel, the bitching and the moaning, I wouldn't have traded in any of that. He was a genuine, kind, gracious person, not a mean bone in his body. And the one thing that we did share was the desire to raise money for charity and to do good things. And I believe that Dale and Erica and Sandy have set up Project Pinball as a place for people to give donations, which I think would be marvelous in Steve's name. We've also, and I don't want to spill any beans unnecessarily, but I know that the family have been going through some of Steve's stuff. Best way for me to describe it is archives. and I am saying that they should accumulate and pile all that neatly and I will help go through and maybe through IFPA and some other ways through what you do. Maybe we can do an auction at some point in time. Wow. And people will be able to step up and get all sorts of wonderful and amazing stuff from the likes of what Steve had archived over the years. and all that money can go to Project Pinball. And people always say this when people pass, that their memory will live on and their spirit will live on and whatever. I honestly fervently believe, and obviously for me, but I think for everybody, Steve will endure literally forever. He is one of the most important, influential individuals in the last 40 years of pinball to get us to a point where we are today and ideally where we are going to be in the future. And I am so proud of my sons actually creating the Epstein Cup as a competition. When we get back to doing competitions and there will be that world order of players competing for the honor of winning the Epstein Cup. Yeah, right before the IFPA championship, that's a big deal. And there's another example of how his name will live on, too. But, yeah, I don't think anybody's going to forget Steve Epstein anytime soon. And, you know, it wouldn't surprise me a place like the New York City Pinball Championships. Last year they renamed the women's championship the Dahlia Rowan Women's Memorial. I could see the Steve Epstein Classics tournaments there, you know, something like that. I would love it. That would be great. I mean, all the things that everybody does, Zen Pinball, the one-handed stuff. Come on, Steve was giving out change. I took a right flipper, he was on a left flipper, or vice versa. That's how it started, playing a wall of games. That was Stevie and I, and Lionel from time to time, or Lionel would just beg off and say, look, it's midnight, I'm home, I'm gone, I'm out of here, and I would be there. The one last piece of the puzzle for some people, potentially, especially with today being Father's Day. One of the problems that I personally had with Ellen's pregnancy when we were in New York was the idea of my working in Midtown. How do I get home if her water breaks? How do we get to the hospital, Lenox Hill or whatever else? It was a Tuesday night in 1979 on December 4th, and you know where I'm going with this one already, Jeff. I had fallen asleep watching wrestling. I used to love the NWA wrestling from Florida. I fell asleep in a chair. We had a loft arrangement in our loft space, and a loft literally with a ladder to climb up to sleep. Seth had a second bedroom that we had built a wall and whatever else, and I had fallen asleep on a Tuesday night when Ellen woke me out of my sleep saying, It's time. Time? What do you mean time? It's not time. The doctor said, I mean, we have like multiple weeks left. It's not time yet. My water broke. It's time. It is approximately close to midnight in New York City. My car is parked in a cab garage literally like four and a half blocks away. What do I do? I call up Steve. Stevie, I need you. What, what, what, what, what? Ellen, her water broke. I need you to come and get us and drive us up to Lenox Hill, which is up in the 70s off of Park Avenue. I mean, it's 50 some odd blocks away from where we live. Steve, true to being Stevie, was there. And I'll shut down right now. I mean, I don't know if he finished counting change or whatever else, but he came instantaneously, picked us up, drove us to the hospital. in time for us to be there a little bit too early because it was about 12 hours later that son Joshua was born. But who do I think of first and foremost for the birth of a child, not knowing if it would be a boy or a girl? It wasn't waiting downstairs for a cab, I'll tell you that. I was calling Stevie, and thank God he was there. He hadn't left the city yet, and I have a feeling if he had, he would have turned right back around and come back through the Holland Tunnel or the Lincoln Tunnel and would have said, here I am for you. Yeah, for sure. That's my buy. Before I let you go, Roger. Yes. I know you and both Steve talked about things you wanted to do that you never got a chance to do. Is there one thing you could share with us? You're talking about things that we could have still done. Yeah, plans for the future, perhaps. Right. Versus looking back and saying the Silver Ball Cafe, we were both right, and if we would have had a chance to do it and franchise it, it would have been great. the fact that we created a video game together called Quadrosome that Steve, up to the end, we talked about it in New Orleans when we went out to dinner. You know, that's a game that we could still do. It's a video game, and it was kind of, think of Konami's Gradius and Nemesis, for those who think of a horizontal shooter, a little bit different than Defender. That's something that we had developed together that we really had high hopes for, and unfortunately it wasn't to pass. I think that one of the things that I would like to have done with Stevie, Steve had gone to play golf in Ireland and Scotland and regaled me with it. Think of me in the rain in like a parka because it feels like it's like 60 degrees below zero. And then you make the turn and suddenly you are shedding clothes right and left because now it's like 80 degrees in the afternoon. That's something, Roger, that, you know, you probably would enjoy. And it's like, why not? So I think that truthfully, yeah, it would have been something with golf. I don't think that Steve ever got to play Pebble Beach. But I think that going on a golf holiday together, screw the cost, you know, whatever the rounds are going to cost to really play at some of the premier quintessential golf courses. My only problem with any of that would have been I needed to get my game up to gear. so it wasn't being totally embarrassed. Well, if you ever do play Pebble Beach, just let me know. I'm going to stand on the sand and collect all your Pro V1s while you swing and miss. But go ahead. All right, so you mentioned Pro V1s. All right, another aside. So Steve and I went and played the TPC at Heron Bay together in one of our golf outings, and I arranged all the times and things. This was during the 54-hole extravaganza. But anyway, so we get there, and pyramids of balls are lined up on their driving range. Steve and I go over because we're there a little bit early for our tee times. Both of us look at each other because guess what the pyramid is? They are all brand-new Pro V1s. It doesn't say practice on it. No range. It doesn't have the little stripes. It doesn't say floater. It doesn't say range ball. It's like, are you kidding me? Merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah. Congratulations. You won. Thank you very, very much. I want this. So we borrowed a couple.
    58:09
    I'm sure you gave them back. Let's be honest. But the story I was going to tell is probably quintessential. So I was out. God, it had to be some convention. It probably was a licensing show when it was still in New York City. And Steve said, bring out your golf clubs and you stay with Sandy and I for a couple of days before the show. whenever so i did that and went to uh steve's country club and it was great because he had gotten us a caddy and i had never played with a caddy before and i thought it was really really neat and steve on the first hole at his country club and the caddy's standing there next to us and we t off and i hit a decent t shot and steve's thing is all right now what i want you to know is the green slopes a little bit like right to left so you gotta do this and i just turned to him i don't know if we'd ever played golf together prior to that. That might have actually been the first time, which goes back easily over 20 years ago. And I just looked at him and I said, Steve, my whole desire is just to get to the green. Where it goes from there is really immaterial to me. If we're going to start going into where the rolls and the things are from this distance, and it probably had to be about 200 yards out, it's going to be a very, very long day. And he just kind of looked back when the young teenage boy gave me like an eight iron or something from 200 yards out. It was like, hi, you know what? This is going to be a very, very long day for you. I want you to forget anything that you've ever done for any other member who's been out here, Steve included. I need a fairway wood. I need a very long fairway wood because that was a very good drive. Hell, if you can give me a T, that would help. Right. So it was a great start to our adventure. And the times that we did play to go to a really good course, I would have needed to get my game together as Steve truthfully was getting his game together. I will share with everybody because I don't even know if Dale, Sandy, and Erica know this, or Brian and Robbie, his son-in-laws. One of the last rounds that he played, he had an 83. And he was bitching and moaning because there were a couple of putts that he had missed. and it was like give me a freaking break are you kidding me yeah but i feel a little bit tired and feel a little bit achy it's like well you know just take it easy and then you know my plan had been truthfully after the covid that we would have gotten together next year and gone down to florida and uh would have been there for a good you know end quotes busman's holiday to not only play golf but also to uh hit some of the places down there uh to play some pinball that would have been ideal absolutely that would have been perfect and majestic uh the last time we were together in florida we got around a golf and took him to a great deli that he really enjoyed went to a uh casino nearby where he didn't listen to me he liked poker didn't he uh he did yeah yeah and uh had no relationship at all to what i would call the value of money uh at various occasions