Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 45: Keith Is Here & We Fell Apart

The Pinball Network·video·1h 42m·analyzed·Dec 2, 2023

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Keith Elwin discusses tournament strategy and game design philosophy amid technical chaos.

Summary

Triple Drain Podcast Episode 45 features Keith Elwin as guest, with discussion centered on tournament play strategy, game difficulty settings, and design philosophy. The episode experiences severe technical issues with Travis's audio and video cutting out repeatedly. Key topics include Keith's approach to designing games for broad audiences rather than just tournament players, the balance between casual accessibility and competitive depth, and insights into how modern Stern games are designed with both novice and expert players in mind.

Key Claims

Keith Elwin has been playing pinball tournaments since 1993
high confidence · Keith states 'since 1993' when asked about tournament history
Stern does not design games specifically for tournament play, but for the masses
high confidence · Keith Elwin directly states: 'when we're designing games we don't think about tournaments at all' and discusses designing for broad audiences
Elizabeth Gesci (new Stern programmer) attends District 82 tournaments and plays in competitions
high confidence · Keith describes: 'our new programmer Elizabeth Gesci...she goes to District 82 she plays in a lot of tournaments she's on my team now'
Venom is performing well on location play due to its progression/leveling system
medium confidence · Joel states: 'I've heard that Venom's actually doing well on location and I and it makes sense to me because...when you put a game on it you're just progressing'
Modern younger tournament players (e.g., eer, zMAX, Jared Augustus) dominate modern Sterns
medium confidence · Keith observes: 'I know what I've witnessed is this younger generation the eers the zMAX Jared augus...they Crush these modern Sterns'
Stern announces new games around late December/early January
medium confidence · Keith states: 'it'll be fun um Stern's last game venom has been a really interesting game...right around late December early January is when Stern will re announce another game'
Tournament directors using maximum pitch setting on games actually makes them easier for casual players
medium confidence · Keith notes: 'another big thing to me is every tournament puts the game maximum pitch which actually makes the game easier'
One-tilt-warning format narrows skill gap better than standard tilt adjustments
medium confidence · Joel describes: 'Logan will have the monthly tournaments and they set it on one tilt warning which is actually brilliant because you can't make a big move at all'

Notable Quotes

“I was in an intense head-to-head battle with Neil McCrae I flew across the ocean...and now I just feel like I'm right with you you know the four of us are just twins at this point”
Joel (Triple Drain host)@ 4:12 — Establishes Joel's competitive experience and playful comparison of himself to professional players
“when we're designing games we don't think about tournaments at all”
Keith Elwin@ 12:05 — Core statement about Stern's design approach, directly addressing community criticism that Stern designs only for tournament players
“we're not designing this game for us...we have to design a game everyone's going to like”
Keith Elwin (describing discussion with Elizabeth Gesci)@ 22:41 — Reiterates Stern's inclusive design philosophy with new programmer
“if a friend or family steps up to it they always ask what do I do and if I can't explain what to do in like 10 words or less I don't even know like I don't even know where to start”
Joel@ 23:20 — Practical measure of game accessibility and communication clarity
“every day you know we bounce real ideas off each other...it's like okay but you know shut your brain off and just flip”
Keith Elwin (describing design process with Elizabeth Gesci)@ 23:02 — Reveals iterative design process testing games with non-experts
“I was watching Jurassic Park on a stream and the commentator like always pick...control room...I was like oh well for that's a problem so uh when we did the uh update...make them more interesting”

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonJoelpersonTravisperson Tomperson Neil McCraepersonElizabeth GescipersoneerpersonzMAX

Signals

?
design_philosophy: Keith Elwin and Stern explicitly state they design games for general audiences, not specifically for tournament players, with new programmer Elizabeth Gesci helping test games with non-expert players
high · Keith: 'when we're designing games we don't think about tournaments at all' and 'we're not designing this game for us...we have to design a game everyone's going to like'
?
code_update: Keith monitors tournament streams to identify exploits in games and updates code accordingly, specifically mentioned Jurassic Park control room modes being adjusted after observing commentary
high · Keith describes watching streams and identifying that control room mode was always being picked, then having programmer Raymond make it 'more interesting' in update
?
community_signal: Triple Drain hosts and Keith Elwin directly address persistent community criticism that Stern only designs games for tournament players, defending inclusive design approach
high · Joel: 'whether it's Facebook or pinside there are people that truly think...Stern's only hiring tournament Players...I don't I don't agree with that comment' and Keith provides counter-evidence about design process
?
personnel_signal: Elizabeth Gesci hired as new programmer at Stern, represents tournament-player perspective on design team, attends District 82 tournaments
high · Keith: 'our new programmer Elizabeth Gesci...she goes to District 82 she plays in a lot of tournaments she's on my team now'
?
gameplay_signal: Discussion of tournament setup philosophy: one-tilt-warning format narrows skill gap; maximum pitch settings make games easier; changing pitch throws off experienced players; removing physical rubbers and adjusting software difficulty are two different approaches

Topics

Tournament play strategy and game selectionprimaryGame difficulty settings and tournament setupprimaryStern's design philosophy: designing for broad audiences vs. tournament playersprimaryCode updates and rule set balanceprimaryAccessibility vs. complexity in pinball game designprimaryVenom's progression/leveling system and its impactsecondaryModern young players dominating Stern machinessecondaryPinball location and operator tournament managementsecondary

Sentiment

positive(0.72)— Generally positive tone with Keith providing insider perspective and thoughtful design philosophy discussion. Technical issues create moments of frustration but are treated with humor. Community criticism of Stern designing only for tournaments is addressed respectfully. Venom reception noted as positive for location play.

Transcript

youtube_auto_sub · $0.000

hey everyone um just a heads up this this episode is something uh Travis his everything everything broke everything broke for Travis uh audio video everything's everything's terrible so um I'm recording this before I start the editing but I'm pretty confident it's going to be rough for Travis I don't know how much video or audio of his will be in the final episode I'm going to try to work some magic um but hopefully I'm able to Salvage uh the majority of the conversation was between Keith Tom and myself um so hopefully I can I can edit something that sounds good but video wise it may just be a static image of Travis so enjoy that uh but buckle up have fun with the ride uh because yeah it was a fun conversation I hope everybody else gets to enjoy it so thanks for listening and enjoy the episode the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball pod all right episode 45 episode 45 we're cruising right along um this should be our December episode uh which is awesome end of the year should be a good time hopefully a lot of people traveling for holidays and whatnot so um yeah we decided to get a guest you know a good guest and uh we got a great one so we have an extra ball on the episode tonight Keith are you excited you ready for this I I've been waiting this my whole life perfect keep that one everybody Tom how you feeling you good uh real good you look great that new cameraman and um Travis what's up as long as my stuff keeps working I'm fine gooda Travis is in his new house and his basement so the chances of his audio and video working this entire episode are very very small it's zero let's just get to the intro drill let's just go all right perfect and here we go we're three guys who like to talking ball so we came up with a CL our name we're Jo and Travis talking B and we call ourselves triple dra triple dra triple dra we're triple Tri here we go isn't it you know doesn't it just I love it just gets you pumped up ready to go I'm ready for tournament talk Joel let's just get to it let's go so speaking of which um this is the end of the year tppy season is always what pops into my mind about this time and uh apparently uh the tppy the when when o when voting opens for the tippies it goes with the pinball promoters database so believe it or not triple drain is part of the pinball promoters database so I thought you know what let me let me look if we have any reviews any reviews on our podcast we have three we have three reviews so far three big old reviews one uh from Doug of all the two plus hour podcasts this one's the best sweet triple drains do a great job covering the industry news is entertaining matter pretty sure in real life they don't actually like each other I cannot confirm or deny that is true that okay yep uh second one from Josh freaking amazing Joel Tom and Travis do a great job making the industry news and tournament talk interesting they play off each other well and the show is very well done sweet but this is the this is it this is the this is our oldest review from Marino great podcast love the podcast entertaining kill the tournament talk boring so there we go so that's who we are so we thought let's double down on that tournament talk here we go let's get arguably the best tournament player of all time on the podcast Keith you are here and we we are ready to hear everything all your just share all your wisdom and all your tournament talk please oh yeah since 1993 19 1993 perfect well wonderful um no we we've got some fun stuff to talk about um let's let's back up a little bit um one thing I want to I consider myself a tournament player now and the reason I do consider myself a tournament player is I was in an intense head-to-head battle with Neil McCrae I flew across the ocean I was in the Domino arcade which is his thing and he challenged me to a nine game tournament best of nine we streamed it it was intense and now I just feel like I'm right with you you know the four of us are just twins at this point I mean I because I won I I'm a tournament champion I'm a tournament champion and it feels good where's your trophy where's my trop I don't Neil did not um he did not give me a trophy um but it's uh the victory is still there and I and it feels good I will say um Honestly though this is the first time that I've experienced the you know you got to play the game and you got to play it well but the picking the game there's strategy with that like so much strategy there and when you talk about running out of P picks or what do you do cuz he let me said it's home court advantage so I get to pick the games game one I went Monster Bash nice game to warm up on even playing field I actually did really well on that I copied his I said after his ball one what are you doing he goes I always do creature first okay looks like I'm doing creature first that's what so did that ended up winning that then I went to Turtles went to my bread and butter I know Neil hates Turtles stomped him on it crushed it so wait wait he hates Turtles but he owns it owns Turtles and he owns Turtles his view was he owns turtles because nobody has it it's a great game to learn for tournaments because when it comes up to tournaments people are afraid of it I know Keith you afraid of turtles you like turtles I barely played it barely played it I mean if you need I love it let's just have an Fu money when you're like I don't really like this game but I'm going to get the Le shipped overseas and just have it okay y so what I've learned is if for whatever reason I'm in a head-to-head battle with Keith Elwin I'm picking Turtles I'm picking Turtles pretty much any modern game you can pick and I don't know the rules oh yours I'm not picking yours yeah that's for sure um and we're gonna talk about modern game of rules because I have some thoughts on your thoughts on that but um pick Turtles beat him on that then I went to Deadpool you know these are all games I know all games I've owned uh Deadpool had I'm not going to call it a house Ball but like I barely flipped the game it was bad it was bad got beaten beaten dead I'm run out of now I'm starting to run out of picks of stuff that I'm confident with and fast forward the deciding game it was 44 my last game the game that I picked that I actually won on was Jurassic Park and it was a game that I've streamed Keith you know I've streamed it you've seen me stream it you've probably watched it for about 30 seconds because it's it with my brother and I Street Jurassic Park we just we got lit up that that game kicked our butt but I had my best game of Jurassic Park ever playing Neils in a tournament and and there's just something completely different when you play a game and you shift your mentality of progression to just I need points I need safe shots and I need points and who would have guessed I got my highest scoring game of all time but I beat Neil on Jurassic Park it was a great feeling and now I'm I'm I'm a tournament winner I'm what was your score I don't want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it you score it was higher than Neils I would have to but it was your high score yeah what was your highest score i' have to pull up and oh you know talk about yourselves if you really care it was less than a billion we guess what it was sure guess guess epic pillow fight no Neil it was it was vicious you know brutal they were you know close to Bloodshed without it but it was it was great but it was I'm just telling you I'm trying to relate I'm trying to relate to the three of you where I'm saying I was what started stressing me out was running out of picks you know really hoping I had it in the bag with my first three or four picks and then started losing games that I was confident I was going to win on and then I was purposely looking at games like I know Neil's a bond like loves Bond so I'm not picking Bond there's no way I'm picking Bond and it just that that head space of trying to understand what your opponents are doing or what they want to play so you're saying that you don't pick to your strength you pick I picked my strengths but I ran out of strengths shot I ran out of them yeah so is that I don't know maybe that's a good question for the three of you I mean do you guys always stick to I want to play the game that I want to play or are you thinking I just need to pick a game I know that person doesn't or hates like I we'll start with Keith why not it doesn't matter just whatever um not my normal strategy no I I always pick what I'm comfortable playing uh if I don't care like if it's a toss-up between games I might do that yeah so I know what I've witnessed is this younger generation the eers the zMAX Jared augus I'm forgetting people for sure they Crush these modern Sterns and so it seems to me that most people if they're going to play head to head they're going to try to avoid a modern St as much as possible against these guys so imagine playing them at the stern pro circuit finals with all you have is my yeah what do you pick then yeah I picked I played against eer and I was deciding what to pick and it was literally a coin flip like what what do you even do at that point Travis I love you man but you your your audio cut out about a half of that so crap you know anybody want to try to interpret what he just said think he said um oh I'm back there he is there he I swear Monica you're listening to this buy me a new mic Jesus it's not the mic I'm telling you take it's your internet but I found my score it was a whopping um 202 million so okay yep let's just move on move on yeah solid score but it was a winning score it was a winning score for sure um but that's it so huge shout out to Neil McCrae um that was a ton of fun it was really cool being in Europe and experiencing pinball from that side I went to pinball Republic had an awesome time playing some of those games um which actually leads us to a message we got a message we got from Matt Freeman so he said hey Joel Tom and Travis a quick question for you buddy I just got back from Neil McCrae pinball Republic in in London UK there's a great atmosphere all the games looked amazing however all the modern games were set up to be brutal because they're used there in leagues I.E tilt Bob Short no ball saves so how as a novice can you deal with issues like on Guardians where the ball would drain pretty consistently from the Right Scoop to straight down the middle or on bond premium top left sling to right outlane much appreciated Matt so I don't know you guys all play like do you guys have any thoughts on and I think we've talked about this before not I haven't asked Keith directly but a lot of these tournament locations now they are trying to make games as brutal as possible uh how does a novice attempt to play that or or is there a way that you can keep a game friendly for novice but yet adjust for a tournament I don't I don't know I mean and a lot of these are physical adjustments and I know Keith obviously in your games you guys try to really think through a lot of software adjustments I don't think is there a discussion there at stern of like we really don't want people adjusting the physical sides of our games besides taking rubbers off outposts or how do you what's your approach there on handling the difficulty on games I mean honestly when we're designing games we don't think about tournaments at all U okay obviously on the softer side we'll put some you know non-randomized stuff in um you know it's just modern pinball has become this storytelling ERA with long ball times and of course with that then comes well there's you know can't put too many dangerous shots in there so it is kind of a catch 22 with making these games hard for expert players because you can take all the inlane outlane posts out you want um eer is still GNA you know blow the game up so you're actually hurting I think the uh you know the more novice player and you know another thing with these um modern games is you can get away with a huge move I mean Travis knows what I'm talking about so it's like Wham all right there's my two warnings um actually tend to rectify that in my next game so oh I think that will help narrow that'll help narrow the gap down too I mean uh so when I would play sometimes Logan will have the monthly tournaments and they set it on one tilt warning which is actually brilliant because you can't make a big move at all so I I think that really helps narrow the uh the the skill Gap so instead of adjusting the Tilt or the tilt's already tight you're just saying you get one danger that's you don't get a free slide save at all got it because what is I think I read or heard somewhere like Josh Sharpe's thought is you're allowed one you're allowed one big move that's it well those guys yeah no so those guys just also go make a changes in the adjustments now actually know what to do well so so that is what I experienced when I was playing Neil's game so I we actually stepped up to Walking Dead I will tell you walking dead my my um I'm starting to understand I'm starting to understand the love of Walking Dead and it was really cool having Neil standing there beside me like telling me exactly what to do do but he told me he's like hey do this and this and this and you'll be in multiball I did it and I'm not in multiball and he's like oh I got to check the settings and he had gone through in like every setting was he just increased the number of shots you know and it was just and that's something that I don't see a ton in tournaments of purposely just adding more shots nor they just miss a lot even on Rush we've seen people do do that to rush a lot and it just makes it super wood choppy it makes no sense to do something like that it it actually slows the game down so yeah that makes sense okay what am I'm I I'm just going to graze the wh Walker on the right side you know 12 times rather than you know okay I'll take I only need three more shots I'll be more aggressive so maybe this is a good question if if if Keith if you were gonna host a tournament tomorrow and Godzilla was gonna be in the game what adjustments would you make to Godzilla if you knew high level players would be playing the game um I mean not too much to Godzilla I designed it so that right side would be extremely deadly if you remove the uh the rubber um but like software wise there's really nothing I'd say to make it more difficult you just put it on tournament play and let her rip yeah okay uh what about Jurassic Park Jurassic Park same thing it's a very drainy game especially if you remove the uh the outline and inlan rubbers um you know Iron Maidens the same way Avengers those are all fairly drainy games uh with the outlane rubers gone Godzilla I made a lot friendlier with the uh the outlan settings and rubbers so yeah I mean to your point Walking Dead which the rule set itself is brilliant because you have to shoot drop targets you have to shoot a building with a magnet you have to shoot the well Walker with or without a magnet depending on which version you're playing those are all dangerous shots um and it's brilliant because you can avoid them but you're not going to get very far in the game so I think that's what makes it such a great tournament gamees it just you know it's all about getting the ball back under control yeah and that's I think that's important what you know you guys alluded to the younger players being so good on some of these games it's because oftentimes you can do really well without ever putting the ball in danger no that's a good point and that's that's something that or at least what I felt I was starting to experience in Walking Dead was like being that I was hitting my shots it was like cool I might actually progress a little bit in this game but unfortunately the way Neil had the settings I wasn't progressing because yeah I just you know I need a reward for hitting the shot three times don't make me hit it six you know um but it was I don't know I think that's just really interesting the more that I watch tournament streams or the more that I go on location and I I love it that locations are doing um trying to do more tournaments try to do more stuff so I think they are actually making their games a little harder but trying to B that find that balance of of how do you keep tournaments so they're not 18 hours long you know with crazy long games but then also how how do you keep a tournament fun for the people participating in it and um I don't I mean Tom with District ad too I'm assuming that's a constant conversation yeah you just turned the lights on off I'm not no I'm not in those conversations I mean I I kind of am but I I think District 82 has kind of taken it a little too crazy as far setups go um making some of the games too hard that don't have to be um especially some of the classic games like like stars like you don't have to make Star stars as brutal as as it is you don't have to make that game hard the the police force with the rebound rubbers that's awesome yeah yeah yeah it's gone now it's not there anymore although I think Thorne still has it but yeah well I I think too with modern pinball and hopefully Joel can you hear me please can hear me okay for now but with modern pinball I I think I don't I'm not a big fan of switching up the software Beyond just maybe taking off a ball save and then outside of that just change the outlanes like change rubbers that's all you have to do and tighten up tilt a little bit because I'd rather see players have a chance to progress through the game and like Keith said earlier you become more aggressive in that way because you know a multiball is closer you know a mode is closer it's not so much of just try to hit this one safe shot get trapped up do it all over again I mean you it just allows for just more Dynamic gameplay and I think a lot of tournament directors out there have gotten away from that because they think they have to bastardize the game so much to slow it down it ends up just hurting the average player it does not hurt top level players at all until you see somebody in the 500s or thousands make a top four at a Stern pro circuit event I mean it just it it makes it to where just the top players will automatically just Crush everybody else every single time yeah another big thing to me is every tournament puts the game maximum pitch which actually makes the game easier y uh so you know if you really want to screw up someone like eer put him on you know a a flat pitch game where it's really floaty the the the slingshots are just sending it to the outlanes left and right uh because uh you know I've been playing in tournaments for years and years and I'm so used to the you know steep pitch game but if I go in a location and play a game that's really floaty I have a really hard time adjusting to it so that's actually something that to actually you know think about when you're setting up a tournament game it's like yeah these guys are used to playing it a certain way if you change that Dynamic of it it really throws off their game yeah and I thought it was really interesting when I interviewed you previously Keith I asked you about Godzilla I was like okay what pitch do you think a game should be at and you had a very open-ended answer you're like play at whatever you want you know if it's draining too much down the middle flatten out a little bit drain too much on the sides raise it up a little bit like it doesn't I don't know I remember there was some idiotic rumor that I told everyone exactly what pitch to put uh I think it was Jurassic Park or something and I was like I don't even have an incl so I don't know I couldn't even tell you a number if I wanted to I just you know just pitch it to what you think feels right yeah no it's good point um I will say at free play Florida they kind of went a little crazy with the pitch like like on Iron Maiden they made it they put a 2x4 underneath the back legs and you couldn't even you could barely hit the right ramp like I took three shots at it and like it would go and back down and again like I said in the long run that makes the game easier because the ball just the slingshots don't do what they're supposed to do yeah yeah well you made a comment Keith which I think is interesting where you said um you know at Stern we're not we're really not designing for tournament play like you you're trying to design a game for the the masses which is which I think is um clever and I and I know I've talked to you before that uh when you release a game like you're watching streams like a hawk because you're trying to see how all these different people all these different skill levels and I think we saw that the way you've adapted the code um based on what you're seeing or how you're seeing people play uh I just think it's what I find really interesting is whether it's Facebook or pinside there are people that truly think you know Stern's only hiring tournament Players so Stern's only making games for themselves they're making games for themselves and their friends like I don't I don't agree with that comment I don't either but at the same time you know Venom just came out and the majority of the media right at the beginning is all from tournament a lot of the streamers play tournaments you know like a Carl D'Python Anghelo a lot of the media early on is tournament minded people and even Travis with the pinball company you know he's making videos on how to win your launch tournament it's very tournament focused stuff so I don't know from a designer standpoint how you balance that of like when I release a game I need this to be tournament ready but at the same time if the bigger picture is I'm trying to design a game for everybody else how do you how do you handle that oh I mean a great example is um our new programmer Elizabeth gesi I think you know her um she she goes to District 82 she plays in a lot of tournaments she's on my team now and when she first came on you know we talked and we talked about you we're not design designing this game for us uh we have to design a game everyone's going to like so as much as you know we'd like to put some super complicated you know rule set in it uh it's not going to fly so uh you know every day you know we bounce real ideas off each other to put in uh my next game and it it it's like um it's like okay but you know shut your brain off and just flip or you know have a family member play and it's like what do they think how far are they getting and then you know we we'll adjust plus or minus from there yeah no I love it I that's really good to hear because to me where I struggle with any game that's down here in the basement if a friend or family steps up to it they always ask what do I do and if I can't explain what to do in like 10 words or less I don't even know like I don't even I don't even know where to start like I don't because I know they're going to they're going to turn off and and that just giving them that or hoping that the game communicates once they do the thing hopefully the game communicates them enough with lights or sound that they would know I did that so now what you know carry them through and I for the the four of us you know we're all decent players I'm G to just include my I'm just increasing my we're all good players where um and we all have a pinball mind where we we can deal with complt lexity but I understand that's just it's really hard to get people outside or on location to step past that or Embrace that you got to remember too Joel it's when it comes to complexity in a rule set it takes a very uh oh he's here now you guys are all gone can you see me or not we can see you you started talking you sound better we you started talking and your video actually disappeared which was pretty great but now it's back okay you were talking Travis yeah he probably can't hear us oh there he's gone Tom Rush I what I wanted to say with Rush was rush you know Rush is your baby you love rush rush is the greatest game ever made right um no offense Keith but that's that's Tom to on Rush I know Rush got a lot of hate early on when it came in that it was too hard to understand and I feel like that was one of those games that is hard to tell a novice player when they step up to it do the thing definitely I don't I mean did you have any thoughts on that when it first came out or you were just like no I'm glad this game is as complex as it is because this is my game yeah I mean I was glad about the complexity just because I'm a big rush nerd so you know um so to me that was a big thing plus I like the more complicated rule sets but I could see where other people are like I have no idea what's going on here mhm for sure uh Travis you are back did you have a thought I did and I said it to myself and all three of you were just Frozen I thought I was saying something epic cuz you guys were all paying attention and then nobody responded I was just like [ __ ] oh no he's freezing there he is am I freezing again he's Frozen again this to our audio listeners I I you know buckle up this is going to you at least hear me though I don't know what to tell him man I can we can hear you you can hear me can hear you so if you're ever if you're ever on a podcast okay he's gonna go no video no you three go ahead I'm gonna switch over to my iPhone I'm gonna yeah yeah we're going to Old School Keith will have the best looking webcam here so I can't wait to edit all this together but okay um Good Luck godspeed Travis so so sorry Keith sorry that well actually no this is Travis you know you know this is not we're not faking it if you're a podcaster don't move that that's don't move your house got it okay okay just don't move okay um what else I know um so Keith your current I know so obviously Godzilla came out and then you had Bon 60th you've since that you've released new code for James for Bond wow for Jurassic Park and Bon 6 yes both of those were received incredibly well I know Jurassic Park C mode has been embraced really well you've been chipping away on that if I had to look at a schedule and I had to look at how Stern is rotating designers you might be on the top of that list so I'm guessing life is getting busier or you're heading in the direction of of busy coming down the path and I don't know how's how's it been the last few months at at Stern B yeah yeah I mean we just moved into the building and getting my office set up mhm um yeah I've been going in two three times a week so that's getting busy feeling good well I'm hoping nothing new yeah well no I'm I'm I'm I'm excited for uh I'm excited for the next few months it's always normally right around late December early January is when Stern will re announce another game it'll be fun um Stern's last game venom has been a really interesting game to have and play um the XP system or the leveling up system I don't know is that any thoughts on that are you enjoying that or is that something that you feel Stern might Embrace more um it's just such a unique thing to have in pinball uh the persistent data thing yeah we're we're planning on doing something similar um it's you know if you have the ability to do it then you know you might as well do it for something we're you know we're not going to the same direction as say uh Venom did with you know powered yourself up to make the game easier we're uh we're doing it completely different direction but uh hopefully people will like it yeah um yeah it's great I actually uh I like playing Venom we have one in the uh in the office there and do our our quote unquote 15 minutes a day that's that's one of the games I gravitate towards yeah and I've I've heard uh we will probably talk a little bit about Venom later with with one of the games or the discussions we want to have um but I've heard that Venom's actually doing well on location and I and it makes sense to me because because once Venom leaves my house there will it will absolutely be a game that I'll want to put one or two games on because when you put a game on it you're just progressing you're just building levels you're picking up where you left off and um yeah to me I have no doubt that I think it would be a really good game to have on location while the side other side of that being that I've had this game in my house for two months it has totally changed I was obsessed when the game when I first had it because I just wanted to grind and I just wanted to beat null but now that I've beaten him I've beaten him four times so I have everything unlocked but I still have Insider connect my my mind is shifted to okay I can check that box but now how do I want to play the game and it's just I've never had a game like that of like pulling me in different directions or motivating me in different ways um so if you're talking about using some sort of progressive system I'll be really curious to like I like that I like the change that it's thrown at me with the game um so yeah cool plus I mean I'm sure you're also appreciating that like with every code update your strategy completely changes yes yes we've talked about that I Know Travis once again with the pinball company has made multiple videos now because whatever he's preaching is the right way to play it changes because they're adapting and I know I mean I know you you do that too with with any of your games if you see a very clear exploit or a very clear path you're not you don't want that so you're adjusting car fault yeah yeah well the great example is uh yeah I was watching Jurassic Park on a stream and the commentator like always pick uh whatever that mode is everyone control room yeah I was like oh well for that's a problem so uh when we did the uh update Raymond worked on those control room modes I said make them more interesting no and I I will say I when I was at um when I was at Chicago pimball Expo I actually commentated a little bit of the streaming and um I I had a moment where I was sitting between Robert buers and um uh Eric the the Florida guy ER Eric Stone and um what was great was Jurassic Park came up and I'm like all right so you're stepping up to the game what are you doing and Robert goes oh yeah you want to go you want to spell map get into a mode as soon as possible get through your first Paddock that way you can get control room that's the way you want to go and then Eric without missing a beat goes no he go he goes no like you want to go Raptor pit Raptor pit is where the points are on this and he explained this whole thing and I sitting there listening and I'm thinking I bet Keith loves to hear this to hear two competitive players from the plunge arguing what direction to head and um that's the goal right that's the goal is to have that type of balance in a game yeah I remember Kaylee George you know famous tournament player came up to me he's like I hate your games because they don't have any exploits I was like okay yeah and I think we've talked before that you said from a designing standpoint the physical layout you're good at that and you can knock that out and you've got ideas for days but it's the code and the code Direction and the code pass and the code balance that is where all the mental energy gets sucked into and that's the exhausting part of Designing a game yeah it's the hardest part of code design is when you're working with assets it's it's you know how do I make this R set fit what's going on screen whereas uh Jurassic is actually super easy because I just told the art guys hey I had this idea for a mode make me these assets okay doing it the other way around is so much harder U that's why after Godzilla my my brain was just fried and uh when Bon 60th came around I I I told Mark panacho you know just do what you want do whatever yeah because you said with Godzilla you like watched everything you were pulling you were the one that pulled all those video assets it was yeah yeah speaking watch each of those movies like five times and then pull assets out and it's like what can I use what can I design a modor around it was yeah it was uh mentally exhausting well the the the outcome was worth it so I appreciate that uh speak speaking of exhausting Travis is back um what is at least we can hear you yes I'm doing my best to torpedo this podcast that's what I'm trying to do we get you're just good at balancing you know we get a really good guest you know you you're you're just jealous you lost to Keith at indis that that's what this is about the double zero on Bad Girls it was his fault like I'm happy the whole world knows it now that wouldn't have happened if he didn't pick that damn game so yeah fun that game was fun oh it was a blast Keith yes I fully enjoy get to play three full balls although I think you guys had what like 20 million 20 25 million on it something like that yeah something like that I mean it's you know that that's what I love about indisk is they just throw the most random game at you that uh going to that tournament I had never played it before um at least competitively or you know I don't remember and um when they threw it in there I had like a junk ticket going from qualifying I like oh I'm going to try this game out and I ended up really liking it and then putting it on my uh my next run and so it was actually one of few picks I had left when uh you when you were in my group so well I liked all the other picks I mean what were we really gonna do we weren't G to try to play Tron against eer like I like playing flash I like playing bad girls and I think what was the first game Firepower Firepower I think right yeah so I liked all those games like to me it's like I was like the Joel of that group because we had Keith we had Zer and we had eer so it's like I was already hitting way above keer and Jason Zer yeah that was a tough group what's gonna be what's going to be really interesting is when all of this uploads at the end how much of Travis's audio or videoos actually here but you know what the good news is people are tuning in still am I coming through still even on the on the iPad you know better it might be an internet issue but we'll we'll figure it out it's an internet issue for sure figure out I mean when I go to edit this this is going to be a bear but that's all right okay so um when we asked Keith to be on we said is there anything particular you want to discuss and Keith actually proposed this idea and I think it's really cool which is if we look at the pinsa the the pinside top whatever 100 list um there are games if you really look at that list there are games that score in the 100 to 200s that I that we probably that shouldn't be there they should be higher or the latter part of that games that are in the 200 to two whatever the most one is that should be higher so we thought this would be a fun discussion with all of our different viewpoints here on what games we think should be ranked higher uh so we've picked three each one of us has picked three per range so we'll start with the range of 100 to 200 what are the three games that we that each one of us personally feel should be in the top 100 not between 100 and 200 that kind of thing so um Keith being that this is your game you can start so go for it three I thought we're doing five all right let's do five because I did five too yeah shoot okay well I did three well but that's fine Jo can't even name five games we're screwed that's not okay so uh so my number five pick is Lethal Weapon 3 Lethal Weapon three let me find that Lethal Weapon 3 currently ranked jeez this is going to take a little while but uh I got to scroll Lethal Weapon 3 okay go ahead why is that better than where it's ranked to me you have to think when this game came out dating 184 was really you know obviously that the uh play Field's a little bit of a copy of of T2 but I think it really works in this case the the orbit around and you're building up your uh your clip and then your cashing that in for awards I you know I just thought it was a really fun game for time and the one at District 82 we've played you know numerous times in a tournament and it's it's always been fun so uh well I don't think it's a top 50 game I I think it definitely deserves to be in a top 100 oh cool okay uh that was not on my list any was that on no anybody else have anything to add to that no Travis does let's see what happens well that was my number three on it or we all just doing number five is this going through please Lord is it is it not it's coming it's coming man it's it's it's just I'm just going to drive to number three everyone just go to Keith's house and I'll be there we only expect this from Travis it's what's crazy is his camera has stayed on it's just Frozen maybe he needs to turn his camera off yeah maybe just go just try try at this point Travis just go pure audio8 is just not I'll stick up a turn your camera off I'll stick up a beautiful picture of you for the for the video it'll be very it'll be flattering for sure but I think it's it's time to ditch video do they only have dialup in St Louis or yes I don't know he's down he's so froz he okay well leave the weapon Keith what was your next game sorry oh I'm doing my entire list or are we going to someone else's number mine as well all right yep uh so my fourth game is the best scissor flipper game ever made Harlem Globe trods Harlem Globe trout uh looking at the list I knew that was coming because I know how much Tom and Travis both love that game but Keith what why do you love that game I played that game when I was brand new that's how old I am um I was like wow this game is really fun and unique you know if you Lov spinner rips and inline drop targets which I do and it's your cup of tea and that game still holds up today it's uh just super fun super dudly and I I enjoy it still yeah and I'm guessing because I think Harlem glove trout has made both of their top five games of all time list I'm assuming Tom and Travis both had this on their list of games they think should be higher yes yes got it perfect okay number three Keith number three I have is mousing around oh that has that shot right up the middle like that's a yeah okay Ming around I own one I owned one for years and actually you can set that shot up to be pretty deadly so um it's got these little Ram covers on it if you take those off the feed is like a lot more wild so um something about the uh the I really love the um what do you call them the trapo locks the cheese locks I thought that was really Innovative um you know having to hit all those stand-up Target I mean it sounds easy yeah but then you're like oh I got to hit all these standup targets but it it's actually great you know risk reward aspect and then you know there's alternate strategy of going building up the cheese letters and catching them in at the uh the mous hole so you know for its time it had some unique strategies you know you can try to loot the left orbit you know depending on how the setup was you can get pretty good at that so uh I just think for this time it was a great movie and I think movie still a great game and it it still holds up today nice does District 82 have one of those Tom yes yeah cuz I think I've seen that streamed yeah it's it's kind of got the uh the papa rubbers in the middle so it's harder to hit the middle and then it has the cover off of the left uh return so yeah it's it's pretty brutal but it's still fun nice nice okay good pick okay what else you got uh my number two I have is Sopranos Sopranos okay I know Buffalo pinball has a lot of love for that game what what what do you love about it the back left corner I never even watched the show and I I think it's a fun game uh you know I like you know the the safe that comes apart you shoot through I thought that was pretty cool you know obviously they had some pretty good assets to go with it and you know Gomez game it you know it shoots fine yeah it's got some nice orbit action and that that that spinner shot I think is really satisfying yeah for sure and I think it's funny that they went Sopranos is rather serious show but they made the game fun like campy almost they made they they leaned into the humor way more than the serious side of Sopranos so yeah and the talking fish and yeah the quips at that that fish make are hilarious it's um I just enjoy playing the game yeah um was that your two and then I think okay my number one is Baywatch Baywatch Baywatch with that little shark flip huh the shark flipper uh the um layout of that game I I think it's just a really really great layout um especially you know at the time when Sega was kind of cost cutting you know everything in that era uh I think that this game kind of hit the mark you know the drop targets felt good the uh you know the ramp if you can make it and the flippers weren't dead was was a nice shot I love that have a little right side with that little spinner that returns to the little shark flipper I thought that was pretty genius okay yeah and I yeah and I love the um I mean I love the big DMD too like I love I love the big DMD I am a I am really becoming a fan of just yeah it's weird the the more I get into this hobby the more I'm actually really drawing to the DMD displays the DMD art you know nothing against all that time and energy you put and pulling clips for Godzilla Keith but there's just something about pinball feels like a DMD to me yeah I mean the game obviously has some shortcomings the video Mode's terrible um it could have leaned a little more into the campiness but I think just as a shooter and just you know kind of a shut your brain off have fun type of game I thought it was uh pretty good for its time cool okay um uh I'd go to Travis but I don't think I can Tom Tom you want to go through your list so I know you you had you had um Harlem on it but what else so that was my number four actually um I I didn't really number these in any particular order I guess so uh my fifth one was Black Rose um I just I just kind of like the uh you know the multi balls and the the goofiness of shooting the cannon shot um yeah I know rid has a big he loves black rose yeah he I own Black Rose yeah so what what do you think about it Keith what why why do you love black rose I I wouldn't say I love it uh I have a lot of fun shooting it I love the theme uh obviously it's kind of a one-trick pony with the rules which is kind of the downside of it but that shot which has got to be the longest shot in pinball to hit the broadside it's pretty satisfying and the video modes are what are what they are I mean they're not great they're not terrible yeah um but yeah no I I I actually enjoy playing that game in tournaments since it's such a one trick pony but you know when I have it at home he's like yeah I'll play this once in a while but you know did you have that game you used to be an operator you used to Route games was that a game you would you routed ever yeah that was at uh 82 for a while and how did that do on location H not too great okay because I it's just it is an unlicensed theme but like it's Pirates people like Pirates and it's the layout with the Canon I do think there's enough there to be like oh how do I I think people hated that the cannon because that area was just so warped you know I did everything I could to make that as flat as possible but you know I even bought a new Canada I've never met one that was yeah I think from the factory they were warped yeah yeah okay cool Black Rose yeah uh so yeah for was Harlem pretty much same reasons keithon uh three I picked radical um radical is a cool game I I mean the layout's super cool um I like the you know the spelling radical doing the multiball um I know they there's like an updated ROM which makes the game a lot more fun to play especially in tournaments but I I really like radical I I kind of wish I own one kind of thing so I put that on my list yeah there's not there's not a ton of them out there that's becoming a more sought-after game um that was actually in my if I have to go top five it didn't make my top three I probably would have included that and it's just because I think it's a fun theme like skating a lot of people I think there's some overlap there that people were into that type of culture and then the ramps the ramps and the layouts are really appealing just the way there's so many of them in the way they're laid out I think it draws you into want to shoot all that um Keith what are your thoughts on radical yeah they have one at Logan it's um great shoot obviously the random jackpot values kind of below but yeah there's a tournament ROM that's awesome okay uh that shot up the middle is pretty tough um but yeah it's actually you know very interesting Dan langy uh design and he definitely took some risks like having a ramp like six inches from the flippers but it works you know yeah yeah it's real is is that the closest like I know the the left ramp on Shadows real close but is is radical is that the closest ramp that you can do you is there a ramp and pinball you can think of that's closer than that left ramp on radical um maybe the ramp on bond oh yeah yeah or yeah I'm thinking uh maybe Monopoly Monopoly yeah um Travis can you hear us I'm here I'm just chilling okay solid um he has dropped out we're trying people we're trying this might be a uh you know we may hear we may hear more out of the two of you than we've ever heard on podcast and I I love it I love it um okay Tom what else you got uh number two I picked demo man it's not like a super deep game but I I like the shots and I mean it's kind of it's a fanish layout but it has the upper flipper it's got some cool shots it's got a lot of flow to it which I like um and a lot of multiball which I also like um but I I thought it you know I thought I thought it could crack the top 100 for sure even though it's not like I I remember you know when I first got into this hobby you could could get like a demo man for like 1,200 bucks yep you know um but uh I I think it's a really underlooked game it's just my thoughts on it but yeah and it has the uh the handles has the handles on the upper side what are you don't you score more isn't don't they have it where you get more points if you play with the handles yeah yeah do you play with the handles either of you I'm bored when you're bored yeah yeah I I will say it has the most probably satisfying shot in pinball is nailing that scoop the computer such a tight shot not the computer but the uh the left orbit into the uh multiball start yep trying to nail that shot under pressure is one of the most fun shots in pinball right Travis yes yes absolutely it great can you guys hear me what I would say just to hope that things work well we can hear you but I think for the sake of everyone maybe turn off your camera and just top Joel and we'll try that okay I'm going just audio perfect you can hear me though we're good we can hear you we can hear you yes so you can hear me okay Demo Man is what we're talking about do you like do like demo Travis do you like demo Demo Man yeah it's okay and he's it's a good okay it was Tom what was your I feel so bad you know he feels bad you know he's he's probably it's Travis it was meant to be he needs to go to a Starbucks or something inter so what's funny is we joked around there was one week that we talked about recording because Travis was busy and I messaged Tom and I said Tom what if we get Keith this week because Travis is wed Keith like what if we get Keith is the sub for Travis and I was just like no he would his heart would be absolutely broken it would be broken if we if weat the one episode we get Keith on and now we're here and it's technical difficulties that's why I can't stop laughing I know I hope Monica's not there in the house cuz she's he's probably like Monica you fix all this okay Demo Man what else you got uh my last one was it's it's probably uh probably my second favorite early Solid State game and that's Paragon um yeah yeah I just it it's I I just like the it it can be kind of brutal um you got to go for those inline inline drops and you have to literally hit them all down and get in the saucer if you want the 5x so I I think it's that and that aspect of it it's a little tougher than harl yeah um but uh you know I I just and I like how it's a widebody which is you know not not the norm but they B did those extra wide bodies and I like that one the best out of all the ones they did so and you love the art no the Art's good yeah all the muscles all the muscles yeah and no neck yeah it's like looking in the mirror Tom right right exactly uh Travis just texted me he said his whole internet's messing up on his everything's falling apart reboot your router your what I just said restart the router let's see you should yeah I'm hitting it now he's saying y'all keep going we will or just just cell phone I have no idea what his cell phone service is um anyways okay so great list great list uh I only did three and um yes I actually radical was one of them that I was genuinely thinking about but it didn't make my list um I'm trying to remember what the what the other one was but my number three is um is oh uh skateball I was surprised Keith that skateball I know you love skateball but skate skateball wasn't on your list I love skateball for sentimental reasons yeah but um you know when I was a kid I would play the whole game oh this game's awesome this game's great but you know played in so many tournaments where you just shoot the right saucer over and over it's kind of soured on me over the years but I still think it's a great game if you play it uh the art works great uh my cooworker Greg Freres must have been like 20 years old when he uh drew that so all right yeah but no yeah I I love skateball but uh in a tournament I don't love it got it okay um so one my if my fifth then this is a shout out to Chuck were would be big game and it's I've only played big game um twice but I've watched Chuck stream it and the passion that he has behind that game and really for what it is the complexity of it and the way that you can attack it um it's not you don't realize it just looking at it but there's actually some depth there and I'm assuming from a tournament standpoint you guys both enjoy that um I like ripping Spinners yeah I I own a big game it's my favorite classic Stern uh but in the tournament am I going to sit there and try to complete Bingo grids no I gonna just hope the Spinner's lit if it's not lit I'm shooting it over there anyway yeah um but yeah it's a great game and you're you're trying to fill out the Bingo cards and get your multiplier up and then the reserve bonus uh yeah I love that game yeah but uh tournament wise yeah I'm shooting that left spinner all day yeah okay that's fair um so that would those would have been my four and five so my number three my actual number three and I'm just I I was almost nervous like my view on these games cuz you're going to probably laugh at I my number three is F14 Tom Cat F14 Tomcat okay you guys are in because that was a game I actually traded this is back when I had a hobbit and I that was the only game I had and I wanted to I realized I needed more than one game I needed to grow The Collection so I actually traded this is when Hobbit was worth like 6500 maybe Seven Grand so I actually traded Hobbit for World Cup soccer um it was World Cup soccer pinbot and F14 Tomcat it was a three for one trade and the F14 te was like pristine condition um so it was a game I never wanted to have but it was like oh part of the trade what a blast that game fun game that game is it is high energy High adrenaline the just even just getting a multiball is such a battle you are that is a game where you really really feel like you're battling the freaking game and when you the beacons it's just I feel like everybody has to own a F14 at some point in time you kind of have to own one and um and I love watching it play in tournaments because it's that's a I don't know what they edit or change on that game to make it harder for tournament Players I think it's just already there it's it's ready straight out of the box you can drop that at a high level tournament so you know the one thing they do is uh get rid of spotting when you shoot the vck okay but um yeah that the second game I ever owned was an F14 and I I loved it and I still like playing it today it's just so weird and different and I remember talking to uh Steve Ritchie about it he was like ah I hate symmetrical games but this one just worked so um and it did yeah what a fun game though that was a game I ended up selling it um because yeah like but I do that's a game I genuinely like I miss I don't miss no offense I don't miss pinbot at all I just I never got into it but F14 was a game never wanted it got it blew me away and then now it's gone I actually miss it and so I will happily play it if I ever see it on location and so the thing you know people may not appreciate today but when that came out in 86 or whenever uh both the sound and the light shows were just leagues beyond anything else at the time mhm that game has like 30 flashers in it you know and the the sounds and the music everything was it was just topnotch yeah so when I had it is right after my daughter was born but she was big enough that I could put on a like a harness like a carrier and she would sit and watch me play you know like little babies looking at lights freaking love it uh my wife wouldn't let me do that with F14 she's like this game is too it's too bright the beacons like she's like you're going to overstimulate this child like don't like you can do it with the other but not 14 which I thought was hilarious that there was a stipulation on it that that is the best multiball ready um moment I think in pinball when you know you lock that third ball then the beacons come on and the music changes and it's intense music you it's going it's like yeah that that's crazy it's great it's awesome so F14 I definitely think because my view with this is like are you telling me there's a hundred better games than F14 like nah like I there's it's got to be even if it's 999 like it's I surprised me that it's 176 176 of4 so I I was surprised Keith you didn't pick Frontier because you always wear the frontier shirt I love Frontier that's the game that got me in the pinball um yeah I I don't know I honestly didn't see it rank that far down I mean I'm not going to pretend it's like some amazing rule set game it's just one of those here do this thing it's very hard to do and you know just keep doing it over and over and uh yeah no I love Frontier um but you know I'm at peace with it not being in the top 100 I'm at peace I'm at peace uh my number two game is NBA fast break and I don't know I don't think that's a tournament game I don't know if I've ever seen it in a tournament I don't know how you feel it fits in a tournament but it was uh it was an ifpa uh 17 and uh the European pinball Championship so I'd say it's a tournament game on it at the ifp so what is a what's a final score like what do you remember cuz it's it's F14 or sorry NBA fast break is actually scored in like basketball points so yeah a score is like a 100 do you remember what a compe high level competitive score is on F on NBA fast break I mean I played tournaments where Rings were worth points okay because you know your score your score is goes up two three whatever and you win a ring yeah um so the ring was kind of like a tiebreaker um but yeah I don't know I think we 200s 200s okay I would have to remember what I feel like I might have broken 200 one time but I had it in the house I got it because I was trying to convince my parents to get a pinball machine and my dad loves basketball loves basketball so I was like I'm gonna get this game he's gonna love it and then he's gonna buy it like that was my thought like that'll be what gets him into pinball um and he didn't enjoy it but my dad's cheap so that's it didn't happen but um streaming that game is a ton of fun and I there's something about task task based wizard modes that I love and the fact that to get to the the to the final the ring to compete for a ring you have to do very specific tasks and you have to do them and once you've completed that though then you can actually do the final I forget the world champion or whatever it is um the ring but I also love the combos the fact that one of the tasks is based on combos the combo shots the dunk the alleyoop the it's just very creative creative very creative fun layout uh friends and family loved it interesting mechs I can't imagine the number of coils that are in the back to pass the ball and shoot the ball like Gomez at the time like screw coil count we're putting them all in I mean it's it's it's a fun game I've yet to play one head-to-head and I know people say that's like a whole another oh yeah thing so very unique game it surprised me that it was not a top 100 game for sure yeah at the 82 arcade in La where we operated games we had a head-to-head pass break and it was it was a huge draw nice nice and that's the only head-to-head game so far like ever right that's happened yeah well I know separate machines yeah I think you could technically do two p3s like head dead you can do that two p3s head to head side by side but but without the basketball SC I think that's the Brilliance of it is the basketball scoring because you can just look over your your opponent oh they got 4 points or whatever you're not trying to read some billions number on the screen no it's super super simple super simple um it's just fun and the call outs and everything it's a great game it's a great game definitely should be a top 100 game I agree we have one on our Stern breakr actually so oh nice yeah yeah okay and then my last one is Johnny pneumonic so apparently I just like George Gomez but Johnny ponic I like the layout of Johnny NM monic um I like that spinner right up the middle um I find the glove very entertaining uh even though it is a Mech that apparently breaks all the time um I know the the final wizard mode I've never gotten to but I've seen and it's it like all the lights start to turn off it's like blackout or something whatever it's power down um it's that's just a fun game and I think that's one of those I think it's interesting these are the ones where people are like I want to get a DMD level game but I can't afford you know tales of the Arabian KN like what what like Johnny demonic falls into that category I think Lethal Weapon falls into that category of you know cheaper but yet this is a game I I have a lot of fun on I know a buddy of mine here locally has one um and I love playing it every time I go over there how does it work from a tournament s is that a is that okay no ter not at all you know you know what's mind-blowing is we have all these custom roms going around but no one's touched Johnny Nam monic with its obvious hey maybe this 10 million super spinner is a little too much yeah yeah that's all you do is you go for the spinner you carry that bonus over just keep doing it and you got 36 billion in no time yeah that's the Spinners right up the middle yeah and it spins it spins for days too yeah I remember Papa actually found some rusty old spinner from one of the damag games and stuck that in so you get like two or three spins and even then that's all you would do because it's still uh you know even 30 million a spin is you know worth more in the long run so there's ever a a tournament run to fix that I think it would be an amazing game yeah well now that we've talked about it not saying you've impacted my list but I think I'd I think I'd move Johnny monic down and move F14 and NBA fast break up that's where I'm at but but those are my three those are my main three um Travis I see a screen I just you know we could imitate him we just oh I do a harem GF try you know we can try play that can you hear us Travis I don't just oh boy I'm just just call you and put him on speaker phone just put he still like yeah apparently there's a uh uh I don't know there's a sandstorm or something over his house I don't oh that was Oklahoma oh he's here what what you are here he comes in right when we start kind of here he's kind of here I don't he's here and not tell him to text his list and we can laugh at it text your list okay okay yeah all right well we'll move on to the second half then um so the second half is games that are in the 200 to whatever the Maxes it was like 278 that we feel once again should go up should be higher they should be in the the top you know not say top 100 but maybe between 100 and 200 um so just say underrated games for where they're placed sure so I'm gonna start with this just because it's I'm just GNA throw a game out because it's it's criminal is WrestleMania no just kidding right now game number 205 on the top on pin sides list of top games is Venom Pro and you're telling me that there are 200 and four pinball machines that are better than Stern's latest game venom Pro I think not I think not so Venom Pro is absolutely on my list on that Venom Pro I get it the code is different it's Unique they've tried something new but the layout is it's a fan layout it's very accessible it's easy to shoot it's fun to shoot I think people can enjoy like I think for them to take a game where they want literally any level of any skill level to be able to achieve the final wizard mode it's a great layout for that um the animations are good the sounds are good the sound package there's four different freaking sound packages in this game like light show every like no this game should not be 205 should not be 205 so we talked about it a tiny bit but I'm not taking crazy pillers right um key thoughts on venom venom Pro oh I we talked about Venom earlier I like it yeah it it's so different um I actually I think I've only played the pro once and I was at the uh the pro circuit um so I don't have a ton of time on the pro but um I don't imagine it's too much different other than maybe the that's always a horseshoe shot but no I actually enjoy um progressing through that game and feeling I I'm a sucker for Bingo grids so maybe that's part of it ah it is there is definitely the risk reward there of before I get into this or before I go further do I want to change host fill out another Lane and boom you got rewards that'll carry through until you fail a battle which I mean you're not gonna fail battle you're Keith illen so um yeah no I get it but Tom you've you've been you've played a lot more Venom than that um yeah 205 why why in the world is it 205 uh I don't know maybe just Simplicity a layout I mean that's that's the only thing I can think of um just because it's a like a fan layout like I said the I've said on other podcasts like the the code is what makes that game um and Dwight's done a fantastic job with it but yeah I I I I think it's one of those games that you know people may not appreciate it now but they'll appreciate it more in the future I agree I agreee I think there's a chance that that game might get to a point where yeah people really start to discover it down the road and all those that are still sitting there all of a sudden are going to start becoming look at Circus Vol ter I mean they couldn't sell those when they they came out and now they're $10,000 games yeah yep you yeah that was a tournament prize for a long time just trying to get rid of them yeah yeah yeah that's a great game I like circus volter is a beautiful game um well I'll just finish my list in uh my second one which really once again very surprising I get it we're at a point now these are not tournament ready games but still Star Wars Star Wars episode one the the um pinball 2000 game I get it pinball 2000 games in general is is I get it I get it and revenge for Mars I do think is the better game I do think it is a better game it's you know Revenge from Mars has all the humor all the animations but this is Star Wars episode one what happened was I had Hot Wheels and Zach was like hey um somebody's coming to get Hot Wheels they're trading me they traded him a Star Wars episode one with cash um and then it was another Playfield he had the other the additional Playfield of AR ringe from ours and he's like so you get this and um just hold on to it for two weeks or whatever and then I get so I get it in my garage I'm looking at the game I'm like do I even want to unbox this game do I even want to unpack it I'm not going to move a pinball 2000 game all the way into my basement when I know it's gonna leave two weeks later like I'm not messing with that but I set it up in the garage and I had a good time with it I had a good time with the game so once again in my mind are there 223 better games than Star Wars episode one Keith is saying this 223 285 better games than Star Wars episode one you think Star Wars episode one should be the worst game on on this list that's what between Thunderbirds and Hercules okay so explain explain to me why why this game is absolute garbage God okay Joel lock the ball lock that's it lock the ball show show me you locking the ball and then okay and then it's garbage absolute garbage just shoot in the saucers yeah just shoot it in the saucer if you get it to stick you you win yeah I know they there's a little bit of rejection and by a little I mean all of it but but you have those spinners on the ramps that are uh the virtual Spinners are you guys talking about Star Wars episode one I'm not trying to rain on your parade no no I don't own the game I'm not yes we are I'm not you know flying as flag shoot it up just keep shooting up the middle you'll you'll get something going I it just once again though in my in my mind so so okay fine is is it maybe it should be in the two I just if I play the game are there 225 game 223 games that are better in Star Wars episode in my mind no but that's just my that's my mind I wish I could see Travis's face right now oh he loves Star Wars he's just gonna go yeah Joel you're Travis normally agrees he agrees with most of what I say I think we line up on a lot of things clearly um I wish I should have done a Travis soundboard you know if I would have known if I would have known it would have been a lot of bro and um I I I I I would place it a little bit higher than uh Bugs Bunny's birthday ball it's that bad okay it's that bad it's not great wow wow wow okay well my last one and this is this uh this is just to make Carl D'Python Anghelo twitch my last game is um Big Buck Hunter big buck Big Buck Hunter okay Big Buck Hunter and Carl is now in a cold sweat uh Big Buck Hunter is currently ranked at 255 255 um I know um Nick from Buffalo pinball he owns one loves it um I don't that's not a 255 really like it's better than that it's better than that um what is there have you guys ever played it in a tournament oh yeah it's it's a brutal Tournament game okay what what was the game I'm sorry there's a lot of commotion back here Big Buck Hunter oh yeah that's on my list hey okay I just I came can you hear me can you hear me no he's staring uh he he uh he messaged the group he said you're an idiot Joel oh so he's listening so he's listening you can hear me we can hear you now yes you can hear me though the video's Frozen but we can hear you do matter uh we'll see me uh maybe Travis can talk I give me a few seconds cuz that's fine you're dog yeah it's the dog you can hear me Tom got a new dog we can hear you Travis yes there's like a 20 second delay Keith maybe it's just you and me it's just you and me start talking about Star Wars okay I don't it's you had to get in okay okay so why you agree with me Travis Star Wars episode one great game shouldn't be ra something like that yes 200 and whatever it was yeah can you he yeah I'll take the silences okay I don't know what it is oh God he cuts out all right uh Keith this is just you know this is what it is man St Louis internet this is what we have this is it yeah you know we asked for this can you can you guys kind of hear me hear Travis there he is I I am I'm literally just a cellular signal is it worse like I don't know what else I could do like look look at this I'm upstairs I'm as high as I can get I I would Monica you need to go to Starbucks and jump on the Wi-Fi I know well we hear you now go on the roof all I can think of is if you turn video off it would be L signal that's all I can thinkb if you can hear me whatever we'll we'll get through it um okay we're talking about video off here we go we're gonna have great success now we can hear you keep going we can hear you no okay Star Wars episode one should it be better and your answer is yes Star Wars episode one keep going don't talk about Star Wars [Music] okay okay yeah the game sucks Joel I I don't know what to tell you it's so delayed for him okay so we'll move on WE we'll move on to the next game the next game that I listed and Tom put it on his list as well is Big Buck Hunter do you have an opinion on Big Big Buck Hunter is rated 255 do you think it's where it should be or should be higher higher higher low ke what going it's just you and me man what are your thoughts on Big Buck Hunter you I haven't played it in a long time but I this is just wonderful this is uh Hey tppy tppy awards are coming up guys feel free to vote for this podcast this is it's incredible it's this an amazing podcast that we have very professional 45 episodes in we're only improving um all right what about now Joel I am outside you know it's a single brand game but there's I think there's enough to shoot at to to keep you entertained there's you know it's got a handful of modes oh God Walk to Starbucks we can hear him walking we can hear I'm walking but we can't I'm literally outside right now we can hear you you can hear me I'm outside I don't know what else to do okay he's outside we're going to try it we're going to try it so Big Buck Hunter is what we're talking about we're going to try it yep it's a great game I'm Outdoors it's the theme it's excellent yes it's [ __ ] out here Tom everything's [ __ ] right now yeah great all right like I got a tree I got a tree that's what we're that's where we're at with this podcast okay what it's different from Oklahoma I feel like I'm in the future yeah everything I say you guys are like 10 seconds behind so I feel like it's not my problem it's your guys's problem I feel like I'm in the future coming from a guy that's that's streaming eight pixels of data right now oh it's great okay um it's so bad okay and now yeah okay it's bad uh we'll just go to Keith I'm listening I'm just 200 to 300s yeah let's listen to okay all right go for a walk Travis get your steps in man get your steps in I am I'm walking I can hear you guys you guys just can't hear me go ahead I'll chime in when I can we can hear okay perfect all right Keith bottom of my list I have Robocop Robocop one yep yep yep yep Data East uh where was that ranked all right why why RoboCop it's just a silly cheesy you know campy game I love camping games and RoboCop definitely fits that uh you know had limited assets limited art but it's still you know there something about it that's fun especially in a tournament okay all right the I've seen that streamed tournament that has been on a tournament stream before does d Papa always Papa okay I've seen that before cool um I remember the music being fun is that right yeah okay techno yeah yeah yeah okay RoboCop uh Tom thoughts on RoboCop I like it solid solid review big old thumbs up um it's a brutal game yeah very brutal future Travis uh Robocop Robocop is a fun game yes it's a fun game wonderful wonderful good thumbs up we got okay okay good way to way to contribute Travis all right it's like two times yeah yeah I could say for a fact Tom that there will be less audio talking as much as I can I don't know what else to do I know I know uh okay RoboCop that was that was number five on your list Keith let's go to number four number four is twister oh yeah with the don't they have that's the topper right just blowing at you mhmh where's twister at 252 okay why twister I I just think it's a fun game it's a fun theme uh that magnet disc the multiball start that whole sequence is very cool the the lock the lock Target is very risk reward um you know you got the orbits um obviously in a tournament play you're probably going to focus on the orbits but there are other ways to score points so you're not locked into that okay I know I just think it's a fun campy game and cheap so good B for the buck all right no I I respect that uh Tom yes that's that's what are your thoughts on TW the Twister Tom yes I I have not played twister a lot so I uh I I can't really comment well I know Neil has yes Neil Neil played it a lot at indisk I stayed away from it cuz I saw everybody blowing it up and I'm like I don't really know how to play this game so I'm just going to go elsewhere um I'm scared to ask what Travis it looks like you are on location you know with a twister in the basically with yes can you report is there touchdown in St Louis are we are we experiencing you know tornado wins what's going on thumbs up no no it's fine it's fine don't worry about it fine okay Twister thank you Keith all right next next game next game I might have in my list was a uh childhood favorite I used to play at the pizza restaurant down the street but it's The Amazing Spider-Man The Amazing Spider-Man yeah um the art on that is real good art it's a widebody that you know it's a little slow but it doesn't play like you know the typical super wide body of the time the plastic spinner that spins three or four times you know but you know it's just a fun you know you're shooting a ball over the Playfield I love the plunge because there's so many different places the plunge can go so I have that as my third uh overlooked game in the top 300 that is a that is a beautiful game and it amazes me so why okay maybe that's the question why is this rank so low like why what is the hate for this game because the theme's incredible the Arts incredible it looks like a fun layout so what's the what's why why is this suck so bad apparently uh maybe people who haven't really played it or the ones they' played hasn't really worked very well you know it is a got Le so is it maybe it's just a plastic spinner that people hate I don't know I just I don't know why this game is ring Sol low it doesn't make sense hey Tom any insight on what you have your finger on the pulse why do people hate this game why do people hate this game I have no idea honestly well if we don't have an idea then maybe then maybe that's a good example of a game that should be ranked higher uhis yeah Travis knows Travis you're on location um with uh SP the the Spider-Man fan club why uh why do they hate this game yes uh I don't know they don't have good taste in games it it only had it only has one ball that's what I think oh it's not a multiball oh yeah yeah yeah I believe it's from what 70 78 or 79 so 1980 is what it said right there right there I legitimately have not enough people have played it that's what it is I've I've considered buying uh buying either a replay like a Repro uh back glass or Playfield just cuz the art is so great my son loves Spider-Man I would happily buy that and just hang it in his room like that just it's that good but um that's one of those games that yeah if if if your entire purpose in pinball is to have a game that looks good in your collection just buy one of these just buy one it's it's a beautiful looking game you know Joel instead of asking us you can just read these reviews I should oh okay let me pull that up while I'm looking at that what's your next game on uh where are the reviews which yeah which what's your next uh what's your next game on yourist my next game is another go Le it is Genesis oh yeah what a that's another crazy art package um uh these reviews aren't yeah so 6.5 it's not as fun as it looks but other games I've own on the asera are more entertaining looks great but mediocre gameplay 4.7 game is a bit boring great comic art play field and glass well done yeah just boring gam play is pretty good nothing spectacular oh here we go 5.3 rating had this game for 12 years and looked at it it uh and looked at it off more than playing it I'm a big Spider-Man fan love the art on the Playfield the gameplay just never did it for me the sounds drove me crazy too slow for me had fun playing it just didn't hold my attention this guy's uh pinside profile picture is of Spider-Man so this is a loyal loyal Spider-Man F I won't disagree with him the sounds are pretty bad for the time okay okay brutal and being such a big W body yeah it's going to be slow yeah I kind of want to click on the Star Wars Episode One reviews and see no so Genesis Genesis I know the art package is is is I know Genesis the art package is insane like it is what a what a weird looking back glass that is but why why do you enjoy it Keith uh I just love that there's like not one thing you're shooting at you're trying to collect all the body parts you're trying to get your mult players your Playfield multipliers and your multi multipliers when you're at in multiball so it was just a you know a fun game for his time it's a goly weren't known for their great ramps um this is no exception but at least you know they had ramps you know some a lot of their games from the time the street level games didn't have anything fun to shoot at uh in this case I I thought it did okay yeah I somebody somebody streamed it and um I remember it being better than than I thought like I was impressed with the the way that you approach the game does have you any of you guys played Genesis in a tournament oh yeah yeah so high stakes oh wow so what are your thoughts then Tom H I think it's a cool game like just basically what Keith said you know you build the body parts multipliers and you know again it's just a you know for a game from 1986 it's it's uh kind of a little bit ahead of its time I think I think people probably dog it because of the artwork and the you know the back glass yeah so if that if that game would have been like Universal monsters Frankenstein it would probably have yeah I mean if it had if it had Metropolis yeah some kind of theme that was more grabbing I think it would have I think it would definitely be ranked higher sure okay uh I pulled up two uh Star Wars Episode One reviews that I think you guys will enjoy um number one the shots feel mind numbing in this game but the theme is pretty cool for pinball 2000 and then uh this one here played it at the pinball office in UK honestly this is comedically awful it got one shot way too many modes involving the inexcusable Jar Jar Binks one mode involved Jar Jar Binks would be enough and a mode about shooting jarar in a foot was more than enough One play was plenty if you of video/ pinb combo Revenge from end is way way better in summary absolutely appalling that was that was the Star Wars episode one review okay all right that sounds about right I got it y okay uh Genesis got it okay uh next game Keith all right so the game I have is number one doesn't quite qualify because it's like two votes short um but it's one of my favorite campy alltime games and that's torpedo alley oh torpedo shout out nudge pinball nudge Pinball it's sitting at 6.8 which puts it pretty low yeah torpedo alley uh they why why do you like torpedo alley uh it's just the the campy call outs you know it's blue I love blue games um it's the sound system is great David Theo worked on it so the music You Know music pumps it's uh kind of a unique layout the upper flippers is kind of you know weird spot that kind of just shoots nothing much but it's I don't know it's just to me it's just a fun game to play so wait you like that there's a flipper that doesn't have anything to shoot at no it does it does I mean you can shoot the drops with it or you can try to a tough shot it's basic what I guess what I meant it's really hard to set up the ball just has to kind of land a got it okay CU I was going to say do you like Hobbit's third Flipper the upper Flipper on Hobbit yeah yeah it's not like hot doging with nothing to shoot but got it cool torpedo alley yeah Ian at nudge pinball has one and that's he loves that game um loves blue games got it okay PE next game is blue confirmed that's what I that's what I just learn um all right Tom let's get to your list all right I have uh Vector oh that game yes I've I like when I was first gotten in the hobby that game looked really appealing because of the art and the displays and I was like this game looks really cool and then you read reviews and people hate it um but yeah what are your thoughts on it uh I mean it is it is a lot of uh hitting the hype targets but uh I I like hitting I like the fact that it has the uh the drop targets that defend the uh the ramp and you got to hit them in order from left to right uh I think that's really cool and then you can lock balls um I just think for the era 1982 it's just got a lot of stuff going for it um I I certainly don't think it's like a top 100 game but like for where it's ranked I'm kind of surprised sure it shouldn't yeah Keith what are your thoughts on Vector um they're a bit mixed uh I I do love the the Dual drop Target Banks block and the ramp and the little the little timer feature uh yeah upper play field is a lot to be desired uh kinetically um and like you say you're shooting hype targets a lot but I do like it that it's so different and then you got like the saucer in the outlane that you can try to save it into so it does have a lot of cool features oh I just I forgot about that s yeah that is fun and for his time the game talked a lot there is tons of speech in that game yeah yeah and doesn't it it records isn't it say it's recording the speed of the like that's kind of that's slick but yeah yeah cool all right Vector got it Tom um tra oh yeah Travis Vector yeah he's literally just pacing on his porch it's just thumbs up are you skateboarding right now it's okay yeah okay he's good oh no uh all right Tom next one on your list Thunderbirds no just kidding uh he's getting his steps Thunderbirds got it no no no no no I'm just kidding uh I did have Big Buck Hunter as my fourth game okay and was there anything about you walked up to with your dog I used to own one I I I enjoyed it I mean it's not super exciting game but um I like the different multiballs you know you got the buck running around you got the elk that shoots out um you know it's it's certainly not a top 100 game but I I think it's a a good game for what it is especially especially that era that was that was like the era where you know stern was really downsizing they let let let a lot of employees go and you know I I I think it's a decent game so I I think it deserves a little bump up all right uh my third one was Jungle Lord just because I like jungle Lord personally um I like the uh the drop targets that change up top and uh the multiball in the game and then trying to go for the uh the multiplier with the bonus so and then you got the Magna saves so u i I think it's a really neat game and the art I know you love you love that once again all the the muscles it's Halloween every year so yeah I I used to fight jungle a lot as a kid it's still fun I think one at uh District 82 I played a few times and it's it's a great game yeah yeah um I had a buddy of mine that that he he would just buy any pinball machine that was broken he would that was his thing he just like to fix it up and he got a jungle Lord uh because it was cheap and he brought it into his house and his wife saw it they have like three young boys and his wife like no like get this out of that like this that art package apparently is not a you know he's like that I I wasn't expecting that to have crossed the line with jungle Lord um but not an elvir or something jungle Lord but all right good choice um and then what what's your last one I I have two more oh yeah um my second one this might not be a popular decision but uh Wheel of Fortune oh okay Keith is shaking his head in the right direction I think Wheel of Fortune gets a pretty bad w um you know it's got the offset flippers which are kind of cool it's got some cool modes I me the game was technically never finished doesn't have a finished wizard mode but probably nobody can get to it anyways probably like five people but uh I I think it's a cool game uh you know that's I'm looking at it now I've never played one I've never seen one um man some of the art the art uh Zen Caster just popped up alert participant Travis is having a problem just now just now warns me of that hi Travis yeah no looking at the art the art is very colorful and then there's like three it's the three contestants those are interesting looking sculpts yeah they're they're like they're bobble heads basically and you got to got to hit them uh for a multiball you have to hit a jackp and then hit the contestants to relight them so it's kind of kind of cool what's going on but below the flippers in the middle yeah that's uh basically ball saves and you can uh you have to hit there's a inline drop Targets on the right that BL a ramp and you have to hit the first one to to light your it's called a free Spin like in the in the uh uh the game show uhuh so if you fall down one of those Lanes when it's lit you get the ball back wow this is uh so it's pretty pretty unique Playfield a weird looking game yeah kind of kind of why I chose it but you know okay I you know for the for the amount of money they go I uh I wouldn't mind owning one okay all right and your last one I picked uh I went with a early uh solid state got Le I went with simbad simad uh it's pretty simple game but I like the fact that there's the drop Targets in the game you have to hit them uh a certain way to get your multiplier up and then it's just you know building up your bonus basically so but I I it's not necessarily my number one in that grouping but I I I tend to like that game so I picked it Keith thoughts on simbad yeah well I think the M version is a little more fun sure um but yeah no that's a solid games kind of Joker poker type rule set um yeah no it's uh it's solid okay like I said I I you know I'm not a fan of the system lining at the sounds and then the blue displays if you can find an em sbad that that's where it's at well that's probably good transition then uh the other thing was going to be um your top Em games and I will I'll tell you right now I I honestly and I know you guys gave me crap for it in the in our our messenger group but I've only I mean honestly I've played probably less than 20 Em games and it's just because they're never on location uh none of my friends have them in their Collections and I so basically I have to play him at a show and um and you know there's a handful of and it's more like oh I've heard about this so I should probably go ahead and play it um but I've just never experienced that so please enlighten me um Keith will start with you in your list what do you feel are the top Em games hey everyone I'm sorry for the interruption uh yeah so we got this far into the episode and um we actually were moving on to what do you feel are Em games that are outside the top 100 that should get more respect um I told them I was going to set out from this because I don't really know any Em games um but Tom had a list of five and um Keith had a list of five and shortly into Tom's list uh we lost Keith we lost Keith um or the conversation continued but but the recording of Keith we lost so it just you know like I like I said if if if you've made it this far you know think thank you um I've done everything I can to Salvage this episode put it back together as best of my as best of my abilities um so all I can share at this point is that Keith's list of five so these are five games that are outside the top 100 that he feels deserve better were time travel or travel time uh slick chick Monaco 300 and prospector so those were Kei five and then Tom um I've been I don't I listened to it this morning I forget what he said I know he said Doodle Bug I made fun of him for for not saying volley because he should say volley as much as he loves that um and there was something like freef fall I think was one um but unfortunately I don't remember the other ones of Tom's so yeah uh that's basically it we do close out the episode I was able to salvage that little part uh Keith's voice is not on there um but really it was just thanking him for being on that so we'll go ahead and get to that point or the episode uh to close it up plug away and um yeah I appreciate everybody that that listened to this and uh uh hopefully next next round is uh or next episode's a little better but thanks guys well cool no that was the game we're want to play I Know Travis I don't know if you want to attempt is there any you know if there's any game off top of your head that you remember on your no he's not even gonna just shaking his head I'm telling you the amount of alerts that I'm seeing here of just yeah so we're just gonna I I hope I hope this all comes together but um Keith I that's all I have unless any of you guys have anything else you want to discuss I bet Travis has plenty he wants to talk just oh man this was uh this was something this was something but no I I Keith very much appreciate you being on here um I assume we're going to hear a lot more from you in the next coming months we're excited to see what that is um and yeah good luck get some sleep hopefully uh hopefully everything goes well hopefully everything goes well yeah we're excited for you um Tom yes thank you for being here uh is there any plugs we can plug uh I'll go ahead and plug for Travis uh he'll plug this podcast you can hear him here feel free to all that U thank you for listening to Triple drain oh there was somebody on Facebook that actually posted uh comment of like what is your favorite pinball podcast and there were a bunch of people that listed triple drain and that's that was awesome that was awesome to see and very humbling so um thank you for that solid plug Travis Tom plug away I was I was going to plug for Travis the pinball Company YouTube channel for so yep okay he he'll not his head yep thumbs up big thumbs up yep and then uh Fox City's you're you're welcome uh you Fox Cities Pinball I do a lot of tournament streaming and twitch and YouTube so thank you Fox Cities uh killer merch too new hoodie on what was that what was that website uh forever the flip forever the flip check that out if you want a very loud bright hoodie that screams Fox Cities that's what you need to check out uh Keith anything you want to say or plug no all good well thank you Keith so much for being on here this was I had a lot of fun I think Travis has lost a few years off his life or hours I mean I can't imagine um Tom it was awesome man it was really good to hear you know it was really good to hear I finally got to talk this is amazing yeah wonderful uh and yeah feel free to check me out every Wednesday night on The Flipping Out pinball or flipping out um YouTube channel we're streaming that we should be streaming a new game here soon uh had a bunch of fun with Labyrinth that was a lot of fun to stream as well as Venom um but yeah Zach's going to swap those out for two new games um so that'll be fun uh check all that out and um yeah thanks for listen if you guys have made it this far with this much technical difficulty God bless you for still listening so thank you uh like always Tom you get the last words sorry