Okay. Rules and code we don't know enough about. Uh they've explained that it's going to be plenty deep. That's for damn sure. Different f light right now. Yes. Yep. That is the one complaint is like there even even during the media day it said like pending license or approval and stuff. So yes, I I I'm hoping they don't get way behind like what happened with Stern and James Bond where I mean, yeah, that game is like they're making more now because it it it got to a good place, but oh that was such a rough uh ramp up uh because I think by all accounts licensing licensing just it wasn't like the programmers were slow as the licensing just jeopardized things. And not to jump too far ahead of rules and code, but kind of like tied to audio and sound. One of the initial concerns I've heard from people is purportedly they've got like lots of callouts and stuff, but people aren't hearing it yet. Mhm. And yeah, because that score in and of itself is just oh epic. It's such a good uh film score. So yeah, I agree with you. Uh, the one thing that I like though about the whole rules and code department is that unlike I mean when people talked about Bond and is it going to get there, I have more confidence in like the team working on this really than Stern. Wow. Well, when it comes to like stylistic No, I'm talking about like Lonnie Rob kind, you know, like I like some of Lonnie stuff um and Vineor, you know, they did Stranger Things. I really like that. But Bond really did nothing for me. That older Bond, whereas this is is at least new cinematic, cinematic stuff, new filming stuff. And I have the people who have created some of the codes that I love more than like Rick and Morty. I still think that code set is so much fun. And it's almost like pinball level of perfection with, you know, your main objectives, but then sprinkling in these extra, I'll call them Star Trek Next Generation Artifact kind of stuff that just with the Mega Seeds. And then you've seen that again on Labyrinth that they just executed so wonderfully well that I just have legitimately zero concern about where this will this will end up as like one of the one of the better coded games ever. It just by the pedigree alone it just will. But to your point, how long will that take? That's whether or not people are up for that wait or waiting in general for it. Yeah. So, I have zero worry about that. But time, they said it'll take, you know, up to a year to get it fully coded where they want to call it pretty much complete, moving on kind of thing. And then a lot of people, they're like, that's that's pretty damn long. But that's what we're seeing from a lot of companies. Not to say it's right, but man, I don't know. Animation, we don't really know. audio and sound. Like you said, some of that the what we got from the media event is it seems like this is going to be awesome, but it may take some time. I did like the code thing, the pain box. That was clever where you have to hold your hand on that action button. Yeah. If you take it off, the ball dies and if the system detects that you're cheating and putting your fat gut on that thing and both flipper buttons are touched at the same time, it says you [ __ ] cheater and it kills you, too. Yes. That is good. That That was very smart. Very smart. So those little novel things I love. What else haven't we talked about pricing? So they came out. They're they're at 11,600. One model. Uh I think they're limiting it to a,000 units like they did Labyrinth kind of thing. That Yeah, that's my understanding. Now that price went up. Labyrinth was uh grand, right? Wasn't Labyrinth 106? Yep. Labyrinth was 106. Um, I know behind the scenes, just from what I know, that they they were worried about the whole they kind of had the price set and that's why they came out with the whole tariff thing cuz they're like, "Look, we're we understand all the tariff stuff. We've set a price and if we were going to consider the tariff stuff and like add that in right now, it would been higher. But we were going to come in at 116, it was going to be more expensive than the last one because there's more going on in here. also licensing and everything, but a lot more going on. Bill of materials is substantially higher. David Vaness told me even the tariff stuff that did hit that they didn't add into this equation. He's like, I just got this x mini pallet of parts and typically, you know, 6 months ago it would have cost this. Here's how much my bill was for this. And I was like, holy [ __ ] It was like three times, four times as much kind of stuff. Nuts. I thought tariffs don't make a difference. what they did on those couple pounds. Absolutely. But to my argument, the end result it didn't because they're still I mean they're eating it. Stern isn't increasing their prices yet. You know, I think all these companies will though at some point if these tariffs do continue to hit and they you know it isn't just bravado and stuff. It'll it will affect. That's true. production. They're wanting to get to about 20 games a week production goal. That way they can get through the majority if not all of these games Dune by the end of the year. What was their rate for Labyrinth? Oh, I think similar. They were about 15 20 games a week. It took them probably two months to get uh two and a half months to get to that point, but once they did, they were they were consistent with that, too. They were rocking and roll. That's all contingent upon parts and stuff, but I don't see 20 games a week being a problem. I just think 20 games a week will come uh in June. I think that's when they would get to 20 games per week. We do know that they are shipping now. They wanted to I mean that was a lot of why they held up uh releasing this game. They wanted to keep the branding similar. Um their etho is it ethos? Ethos. Is that what they call? Yeah, their ethos. Yeah. So, they were they were really big on that and they landed that I would say if I'm being critical to them and they know because I speak with them often is it's it was going to be hard because the resources and timing to nail everything you did with Labyrinth and I did think they slipped up when it came to the launch of this game. They didn't keep their is it pathos or etho? I don't know what is. They didn't keep their branding consistent when it came to the launch of this game because it was a bit of a mess in my opinion. So, I don't think it damaged the brand, but they have an area that they can do significantly better in in the future to uphold what they've worked so hardly uh to build up to this point. But they are shipping. I think two of them went out last week or this week going to I think a show. I think they're going to a show and then then they'll be going to different locations. They're they're preferencing locations, giving priority to that Dennis and listener to where they can get out uh on arc at arcades. I know that for flipping out pinball uh we're getting a showroom model uh so we can do some media on it as well as other dealers getting showroom models and uh they're going to location. So we have, you know, a list of locations that you're going to be seeing receiving those soon. All right, sales. Okay, how do you think this did? Oh, probably decent. As you said, market's down. Nobody wants games. Did I say that? Mhm. Yeah. Or that was the narrative that I was saying that you said. Okay. A lot of people say that though. Nobody's going to buy [ __ ] Nobody's buying anymore. The sales overall, here's the here's the real deal. I knew what this product was going to be. And if you gave if you told me to estimate the sales or or to project what I thought was going to happen to the sales whenever Monday hit and they showed the pictures and the teaser trailer sales were below what I would have estimated and I was a little like uhoh. But I knew that they weren't showing the product in its right in a rightful way like they weren't giving it. And maybe that may be behind the Patreon too but a lot of people were like oh it got leaked. There was a dealer that I I don't even know where this story came from. There was a dealer that leaked it and then they had to then launch. I don't know if Barrels cares if I tell this, but it's the truth. Like that's not even I don't know where that came from. That's not even close to being true. The reason they launched it was the reason they launched it. They had full control of that. I won't go into all of that, but there's other factors that make more sense and viably were actual truth. when the dealer le we didn't even have the damn We didn't have any of it to leak. So there was no Yeah. I I think I saw a link somewhere where someone had found that a a distributor had a page set up calling it Dune Pinball. That's me, Dennis. That's me. I have Oh, is it? Yes. Surprise, surprise. Like, so that's that's where some of this narrative came into like there was quote unquote media news that was reporting like, "Oh, a dealer has dunpinball.com." And then they were trying No, no, no, no. I thought I saw a thing where someone had a page set up on their actual like site where all of a sudden Dune was in the in the in the pinball list. Oh, okay. I got you. And then that person, whoever it was, I don't I thought I saw a screenshot. It didn't look like your website though. Okay. But that that supposedly they had posted like here was the link for the Dune P like it was in the drop down list and then they took it out like a you know in an hour or two or something. And we'll talk about the whole domain and stuff like that. I didn't look into it cuz I don't care. Everyone knew it was Dune. Well, everybody was saying like oh dunepinball.com. So this I think it was NAP. It might have been NAP. It was like, I think this dealer is trying to Well, I think after the Harry Potter after the Harry Potter pinball, people started like compiling lists of other, you know, known rumored games to see who owns the uh he's trying to get an advantage or something like it's like, well, absolutely not. Or he's leaking. No, absolutely not. Um I own a lot of domains, by the way, that I think might be pinball machines in the future, but it's just guesses. I mean, it's just that's a thing that um some of the people in the media just don't understand. And it's called it um it starts with a B. It's just it's called business. So you have to I'm running a business. I know it's hard to imagine business moves such as that. But that's what I'm trying to do. Trying to work hard. So overall I would say the before that the sales but then once that trailer hit and that was post King Kong I was like uh oh what are we going to do? No sales have been good. Good. And they were back up to what my estimation I almost to the tea of what my estimate was. Maybe a little bit better than even I estimated because I knew that Kong would take a bite out. I really knew that it would take a bite out and I was trying to be straight up with barrels whenever I was giving my assessment of what I thought was going to happen. I was kind of telling them, you know, as in this industry, with the timing that we've got right now for this product being launched, I think we all need to, whether you want to hear it or not, we need to temper some expectations of what this product is compared to the timing in which it's being released. I think that the Well, I mean, obviously, but like from a from a listener standpoint, OB, I get why it's important to your standpoint that, hey, you know what? I I stuck my estimate like it I I know how to read the market. From a listener standpoint, your estimate is irrelevant. What they want to know is over the 6 day period or whatever, how many more or less of these did you sell than Labyrinth? Oh, that's the number. That's a hard It's going to be less out. It's going to be less. Of course. Why? Why? Of course it's a multi Do I want to bore people with the multiffactored reasons why? I mean, I don't know. Do you? Oh, you probably do cuz you like to bore the people but meandering. We have spent we have spent like 50 minutes on dude. That's true. We can move on. But uh quickly if people do care uh let us know but # sky is falling different different time less than labyrinth sophomore effort in e effort inferior to freshman effort. That's not skying. That is not it. Sky it's timing. It's the market. It is uh it's so many different factors. It's um yeah, it's a lot of stuff, many variables. Well, not to not to even mention my sales are lower because whenever we were selling Labyrinth, I was one of three dealers whereas when we were selling Dune, I'm one of 20 plus dealers. So, that alone you're going to see sabotage. Yeah. But here's what I will say that I was very surprised upon. It may or may not be true. Well, it's true. This is true. Uh, flipping out pinball has sold more Dune pinball machines than King Kong Pros. How about that? Like that. Is that That's significant. Okay. Oh, yeah. Sure. A lot of factors. I get it. But what's your argument or what? I'm I'm feeling something there. I treating each model tier like its own thing beyond just being a I'm trying to find a data point that's interesting here. No, it's not. It's because it's devoid of context. It's devoid of context and not enough people have played King Kong yet. So, this is standard for like all the Sterns is the premiums and alleys out sell the Pro until people realize whether or not the Pro actually plays well. And the Pro looks super stripped down on King Kong. But you were asking me if they sold more or less or so I was giving compared to the same company, same thing. Like, oh, you're want to compare the same thing. I mean, we've got a lower LE count now, a lower run count on Dune than we did on Labyrinth. I I don't think they're going to make all thousand of them. Yeah. My only data point could be at this point because so early that it did not it has not sold as well as Labyrinth did a year and a half ago. And I think it looks overall I think this game looks really good. But you know uh unfortunately going up $1,000 when everyone else is holding their price was not a was not the ideal play here. I think that this game looks better than Labyrinth as a game. I agree. I absolutely agree. But I also like the uh license more. So I have to check my bias and make sure less. I love Labyrinth as a license. I know you do. But but yeah, going up $1,000 is significant, too. Absolutely. I mean, it's just compare when the fact that Stern held pricing and JJP's already indicated they hope they will hold pricing and JJP coming out with a a mech equivalent version of Harry Potter less than this game that and and we have to remember we told we're not allowed to spend our money. I thought I thought 99999 right for arcade. I'm saying do we know that it is just as mechenriched as I thought it was said like I'm not saying like the lighting and stuff but I thought like it was going to like gameplay was going to be identical. No identical when comparing to Dune here. Oh no no no. I meant just the wizard version versus the arcade version of like like you're not it's not like a Stern Pro where you're giving up mechs. Mhm. No. I given what they've done here and if they've really been as aggressive to hold the pricing. I'm very curious now if Harry Potter looks stripped compared to Dune given where Dune is priced or is JJP relying on their economies of scale and they're able to do more with less money because they buy more parts. Yeah, all very very good. I guess we'll have to wait till phase three to see. That's right. All right, let's uh talk about King Kong myth of Terror Island. What is the myth? I don't know. I mean, Terror Island Skull Island is pretty scary is the myth that it's not scary at all. What is the myth? I mean, maybe. Or maybe that he never was on Terror Island and so that's the myth is he's on this is the wrong island. [ __ ] It's like Shudder Island. Leo's really That is a weird movie and that movie would be a terrible pinball machine. The Hulk is really expect to do it at some point. I love Shudder Island. It's a great It's a very good movie, but like the so is The Godfather and it's not it's not meant to be a pinball machine. It's just that was my reference. But anyway, King Kong Stern Pinball Cornerstone Pro Premium. Can Can I please say I I mentioned this on that flipping out stream that Joel invited me on, but I am so proud of Stern for not going back up to a thousand LE units. I'm very This was This was the right play. I'm very disappointed. Keep them hungering. I thought make their tummy tummies rumble. I think that Keith Elwin should be known as the 1,00 unit LA man. I just I this is so good for the whales because it'll better position even though it's just a little bit under a thousand. It will better position for value retention in their Ellie. I heard you compare yourself to a little beluga. Cute little beluga. I might at best I would like in my scenario. I was walking through an example, but I can't assume myself to be a blue whale. I'm not. You're a little beluga. I would not. I'm more like a little beluga whale with a squishy forehead. They're cute. I love those with the bulbous Yeah. foreheads. Yes. Then you can push them and they squish in. Squish almost dolphins. I love it. They Yeah. 932 units. Why 932? Because King Kong was either written or the film or whatever it was was 1932. So the idea of tying these into like uh things is I I find uh quaintly ridiculous. Yeah. That part is not cool. Quit. Just make make round numbers. Quit. I was teasing I was teasing Stern. I said, "This game sold so well that if anybody I was telling the salesperson, I said, "Can you ask Gary or Seth? Um, let's just go back. Let's do a thousand and send the extra 68 units to me and I'll buy them right now, please." Because this this has been selling as everybody thought it would be selling. It's selling. I saw someone on a social media, probably on a flipping out social media posting saying it doesn't really matter cuz in a couple of years they'll have the black and white version come out and it'll be more valuable than the LE anyway. Couple years. I was hoping by Q4. I mean, maybe Q4 next year. Uh, you know, they're going to have to. I mean, if they're partnering this thing up so closely with Godzilla like they are, I mean, the people who have the black and white Godzilla are going to want the black and white King Kong. No, it's a fair point. I don't especially after all of this uh I won't even say rightfully so because I'll argue against it. The criticism of the color palette being used on this game. You know, they're going to lean into that and be like, "Fine, here's your black and white with red blood all over his hands." No, they got to go [ __ ] purple. I hope they go black and white and purple. I would love Come on, Yeti. Let's do it. You got he's the new studio art director, Jeremy Packer. Yeah, congratulations to it. Congrats. Absolutely. So, no price increase. I think that shocked a lot of people. Super smart and Stern knows what they're doing. Sometimes smart isn't always helpful though in business. They're like, "Oh god." Yeah, that that was I again, if it was Spike 3, I think we'd have seen it. But maybe Spike 3 is a myth. Maybe it's like dry land in Water World. Oh, King Kong, the myth of the new operating system of Spike 3. Yeah. So, the design was Keith Elwin, the golden child. The golden man. He ain't no child. He's a man. Do no wrong. Shoots great. Best game he's done ever. Unequivocally game programming. Rick Nagel is back. Rick Nagel mechanical engineering. Harrison Drake. The whole team is back. That's right. Art. Well, no. Well, now I can't say that cuz art Greg Ferris, Kevin O' Conor, and new studio art, our director Zombie Yeti. What in the hell happened here? Uh, collaboration. Uh, yes. Well, kind of kind of kind of some got to go got to dig back into the into the prototype vault of Data East. Or was it Sega? I forget. It was Data East. I thought it was I people have been kind of poo pooing like nobody even knew that game, so why would they do a throw? It's like, well, because it's their company and this is kind of cool. I liked it. I like the move. Uh, it was it was clever that they're right that nobody really cares, but I mean, I thought they integrated it fine into the beautiful down there. Yeah, it's beautiful. The only thing I don't like on We'll jump into the art, but uh because there's a couple things I don't like, but yeah, I thought it looked looked really cool. Let's see here. Who else worked on this? So, yeah, they came in. I think Greg Fra and Kevin O'Connor were doing the playfield and all this stuff and then Jeremy Packer stepped in after the fact and was helping them complete it. So he focused more on cabinet artwork, back glass probably kind of thing, but he probably lent him lended himself to is it lint or lint? Uh the lint lent themselves. It's Easter time. I know. That's what I'm saying. I won't eat. I promise. Sound design Jerry Thompson. You know, uh, TPS, the Pinball Show announcer, Jerry Thompson. Yes. Yeah. Jerry does good work. It's pinball with personality. Custom speech by Brian Q Quinn from Impractical Jokers. This is the guy that got drunk. It's like there's no remember that. To me, when I saw it, I thought, uh, I mean, I'm great. I'm glad you got custom. Honestly, they could have just used a coder in at Stern at this point. I'm like I But you're not going to get someone from a from a get someone from one of the King Kong movies like get one from Peter Jackson's. Get Jack Black to do it or something. Even though it's not themed on the movie, Tis Beauty killed the beast. I don't know. Just I mean, was the Brian have anything to do with anything? I would argue against it if he didn't do a great job. Like people are loving the work that he did in the sound. Okay, great. This is a weird It's a weird like you you sell one game because of this. That's all that did. That's all that you did. I agree. And if he did a bad job, people would be like, "Why is this a selling feature at all?" Like, come on. This is This is Well, they probably knew it wasn't a bad job though, the moment they heard it. But all right, so you seen this game. First thoughts when you see this game because this was revealed when you actually seen it all. Yeah. Looks good. It looks so good. Looks [ __ ] awesome. It does. It does. I mean, it's I hate you know what I I mean, I don't because I don't I don't inherently want to be negative, but I'm kind of at the point where I it might be nice to see something like a quasi miss from Elwin just to prove he's doing. [ __ ] no. Just to prove he's human. Oh, I'll I'll still say that's Avengers. That's what Avengers is. It Avengers is definitely the worst one. Good lord. Do you dare put that on anything? No. The gamewise, mechwise, shotwise. Again, he keeps making the layouts look like he has certain tropes he likes to do. Um, full, you know, credit to him here. I think he finally resisted doing a 180 ramp. Thank you. Cuz yeah, just it's like one of my least favorite things like like Gomez does a pretty good 180 ramp. I actually haven't really loved Elwins. We hate him that we talked about that. It's because it's it lets them squeeze an extra shot in is why they keep doing it. But I'm glad they didn't do it. It kills the good feeling of any shot. I don't like it. But I mean the gong the gong of cop I mean it was in the teaser. It caught my eye. The sound effects tied in with that. The biplane the little magnet spider. I love the magnet spider. Why are people hating on the magnet spider? They they hate it. I thought it's cool. People were hating on that thing. I think it's they're like it doesn't fit. Absolutely. I like how it's on a little metal plate and so it's a the magnetism of the electromagnets actually what's making it jiggle, not a coil. I thought it was awesome. That's neat. That's one of the biggest features you're missing in the Pro. I love that thing. Yeah. No, and that's the thing. I mean, my Again, I don't I don't have major criticisms of what I see here. It's It's hard to with the gameplay already being seen. Yeah, it shoots well. Yeah, the stream is awesome. I can see where some inspiration from some games is, but it it's it's a unique layout as it always. There's a reason that most of us media just gush over Keith Elwin games. Like it's I assure you guys it's not because Keith Elwin's up out here chatting it up and buddy buddies media cuz he's cold when it comes. I don't talk with he he helped me out with uh when I had an issue with my Godzilla game and like that's been the extent of our correspondence. We are not friends. I I do not talk to him. I do not hang out with him. I do not ask him to come on for interviews. I don't do anything with him. That's what I'm saying. So, when it comes to There's a reason why we all gush because they really set But we're not surprising anyone. Like, I haven't honestly heard anyone go, "You're wrong. All of his games suck." Like, no one thinks. Even the haters are like, "Yeah, I'll buy it. This game is awesome." That there it is the shining light in this industry and has been for the last five plus years. Uh, and keep them. It's been so severe, Zach, that some say this is why we heard out of JJP just like demands that we not spend our money on anything. Absolutely. They had to know this game would be good. Yes, they it's an expectation. Even without their spies, they had to know. But maybe he does get into a situation where people have so high expectations. They did this with Zombie Yeti. Then after so many art packages, people started poo pooing just for the sake of poo pooing. Ah, the big difference there and it to be fair, I think it's harder for an artist. I I'll always sympathize that it could be harder for an artist. Yeah. Is is doing, you know, working in a in a particular medium. Elwin has been able to keep and the I actually maybe it's not even that true because uh as I think about other pinball design well it's dependent on the designer but a lot of designers have layout it's I mean Steve Richie is a case in point. I love me some Steve Richie layouts but they look a lot alike. Elwin has done a very good job making his layouts look different. zombie yetis pinball art packages have started to look very sy that's why I like the I mean yeah same color palettes the micro comic again he's varied it up too but you start to see like there's a certain style that again he's an artist he's got his style how many of them are how how many of them are you know prolific in multiple styles of artwork and same with and and I was just going to say Ellen isn't the only design like like Balser has that reputation too of being pretty dramatically different with a lot of his layouts, but most of the active designers have have design tropes that constantly repeat. And I would I still argue and I'll argue this for the years that I have is that for whatever you know criticism that people give Zombie, his work changed an industry. It it truly changed the way our expectations of what art should be. So that in and of itself is the only trophy in my opinion that he will ever need to justify why he sticks to his artwork because it may not be for everyone, but selfishly I'm so freaking happy that it sings to me. Like everybody's like, "Oh, this color, all this color." I'm even because of Zombie Yeti. I'm going to give credit to Greg Fra and Kevin O' Conor. Kevin O' Conor who I'm usually mixed with on art. Take it or leave it. I just don't don't click with their his art. Even Greg Freris, like for whatever it's worth, Alvara artwork on the Playfield, like almost too much 90s for me. Uh, but on this, I love this package. I I might like the Playfield package, Dennis, more than I do the cabinet art. How about that, Jeremy? I may. I just And who was it? See, that's that's interesting to me cuz I actually like the the translate and the cabinet packages quite a bit. I think the color works fine there. It's the playfield that looks over. That's what most people are saying right now. They're just they're cramping all over that playfield and I had uh whenever this game was uh Greg and I, Greg works with Flipping Out Pinball, so we were at the dealer seminar together and he text me as soon as we seen this. He goes, "Yeah, you're going to love this art package, don't you?" And I'm like, "Does that mean Greg didn't like it?" No, he was mixed on it. He doesn't He doesn't need this much color. He's more like you. Like I I just don't Well, I mean it's it's not the colors like I mean they got the like the jungle theme going on on the playfield. Like I get the idea busy stuff. There's a lot of it's busy. That's and well and my big thing is that um you my impression is Jeremy really likes to dial that saturation level all the way to the right. And Greg Ferris he he uh he packs things in. I mean think about Elvire. Think about some of the art packages he has done you know over the last several decades. where whereas I'm going to bring up another artist though where you know Franchie doesn't do high to me like he doesn't lean on saturation heavily. Now I know some people don't like his style because it's more photorealistic but he will throw in he'll throw in colors that people would argue don't belong. I'm fine with I'm fine with color. I don't want to be and I'm definitely don't agree with Greg who poo pooed all over Deadpool's art package because it was too what does Greg want cuz he's like no this has got too many colors and then Deadpool was too much of one color. What does he want? I love this art pack. Like I just love all the color. Is this his best art package ever for pinball? I can't I can't put this I can't compare this with the other zombie. For a while there you were always saying the latest like whatever one was on the line was Jeremy's best art. compare it because this isn't all of Jeremy Packer's stuff. So, I don't You can You can compare it. Say it's not fair because he didn't have 100% universal control over it. Yeah, I don't like the cabinet package as much as I do his other work. No, I don't. I like the Ellie artwork the best though because it does give me one of each side, which typically I don't like the lack of symmetry there. Um, but the back glass I just think that Ellie backlass tennis is a winner. I just I love uh the heroine in front. I love I just love the composition of of Kong in the background. I love the art deco styling that Ellie is just now where they fell short for my opinion is hey Stern Zack here. Are we going to WWE this powder coat [ __ ] Like I'm I know John Wick wasn't a a great seller, but can we be done with the black? I need something to fill my plate or my game room with color. And that's why I'm buying the LE. Give me something besides I'm tired of all this black. Black is the standard you use. You use a textured black for your non-le. So whatever you do, try to stay away from black so you differentiate your top package from all the others. I'm just so tired of black. But Zach, it makes sense here thematically because you do have the art deco and you have, you know, that's a tuxedo black. I I know. I get it, but I just don't want it. I want color. Sorry, that was my rant. But yeah, the the Ellie, but I like the I just love how busy and colorful the playfield is. I don't know. I just do. Which one? What package do you like? You like the jungle package or do you like the city package? Um, overall I do favor the city package. Okay. So, premium. I'd have been perfectly happy to mix it like the sides being the dinosaur getting its mouth ripped open on the pro, but then going with like the the premium for the translate. Yeah. So, yeah, for whatever people want to say about the art, I just hope that they keep doing this. Like, just don't, please, just don't listen to people. I don't even know what the right answer is, but don't listen to them. I want this. This is what I want. Layout and design, A+. I mean, [ __ ] We even saw the stream, which I'm always deathly afraid of. I'm like, why are you streaming live new products? Please don't do it. And sometimes it works out. This time it worked out very, very well. it actually. Yeah, we've seen a bump in sales after the stream and that's that's usually a not a rarity, but that doesn't happen all the time. Uh so layout and design, it looks it's like Dune to me. Like that's that's what I was teasing before we went into phase 2 trough jam because like this is what pinball people want. And Star Trek is one of the greatest shooting pinball machines ever, but I don't want anything else like it afterwards. I'm I'm good. I'm good. I know what that feels like. I know what it looks like. Third flipper, side ramp, uh ramps that go straight up and they come straight back safely. I get it. I want new stuff to shoot at. Otherwise, I don't give a [ __ ] about new games except if they have like a theme that just screams to me. This is the perfect example, listener, that new pinball. Like I'm almost going back on my whole themes because I won't because of course themes sell better than anything else. But I don't care about King Kong or Dune as a theme. I just don't care. But I'm more excited to play and own these than I am even the themes that I just love more than these because they have cool stuff that interacts with you and different layouts. Ultimately, I think that's what as a group most pinball people want. Yeah, it'll do great. Looking at the like the mechs, the Kong Kong thing is cool. King Kong in itself. Like what a cool toy. That's like Jurassic Park level of toy there. How he's interacting, stopping balls. He's Kong Kong smashing the freaking the subway car thing and balls are flying. That's you. That level right there. We need something to that degree in every game to be a hit. And they loaded down like the biplane. Like you said, they've got this little upper flipper, the sweepable drop targets. I feel almost like that was his uh What Stern game do I not like that everybody loves that I think is overrated? Uh Batman quick. Quicksilver. Oh, Stern with the where they he Yeah. Quicksilver. Everybody's like, "Oh, that game's great." No, it's not. Sucks. The that that sweepable bank is way too close to the flipper and it feels clunky. But they feels like that ode to that. in the river. Dennis, the log that lifts up in the river, it comes down to the and he did like this little fathom like thing where the middle in lane is really the outline and the outline sweeps to the inlane thing. I'm usually kind of mixed on that though, but we'll see how it plays out here. Spider. Oh my god, my favorite thing on the whole thing. This sounds weird and I hope it feels good. I love the little kickback thing where you hit it the right orb and it swings around and hits that little got lead thing and it kicks it and it flips it right back to you and it feeds that upper flipper. Oh, baby. And you can do the little pass. You can do the little the ball passes from the upper flippers. You can hit the ramp and it feeds to the upper left flipper and then you go back and it feeds to the upper right flipper and you go back and forth and you play a little patty cake with yourself. Dennis rules and codes going to be [ __ ] awesome. We don't know enough about it yet. So, somebody said it this uh from day one though that does have quite a bit in it already. Uh animation, people are kind of down on this. What do you think about the animation? We got no footage. I actually liked it. I liked the cartoon approach they're taking though. I do too. Um but again, I think maybe that's cuz I don't love the theme and so you might as well make it original. Like I don't I don't care to see anything from the original movie. Uh, I think I have no I have no connection to the original movie and I don't care to. But I didn't have any connection with the Godzilla stuff, but it was a welcomed they were welcome assets for me because they were kind of campy and fun where I think I am kind of missing that here. I just don't think there's enough with King Kong. There's just Godzilla just became a thing like with King Kong like what are we going to do? Are we going to do the original movie only? Are we going to do the original movie and then all the other various movies that happened like in the 80s are like all disconnected and it doesn't there's not a unified theme to it. I other than that it's the same, you know, ape. I Yeah. No, I think this is fine. I think this was more like what they did with Deadpool. Um, obviously they've tried to make it not just be looking like a video game here. No, I thought I I need to see more of it to see how janky it might possibly be, but from what I've seen so far, I thought no, I think this works fine. Back up to really quick to just because people are everybody's giving the same [ __ ] out right now in the media, but Well, there's nothing to say. People Yeah. No, but people come to you and I for the true analysis. Yeah, they do. And our expertise [ __ ] We can be humble all we want, but that's why we get the listens. So, I'm going to ask you this. Is this technically his best layout? Where does it fall? Does it fall his best, middle of the pack, his worst? Gosh. And I haven't played I don't feel that's it's fair at all for me to say. I'll say I mean I I don't think from a technical standpoint this will be able to to shoot as well as Godzilla or maybe even Avengers. Okay. I I think that shoots better than Avengers, but I also think Avengers is his worst layout. Oh my. Avengers was oh so good. No, the banana ramp alone was annoying. the um No, I would say I think Jurassic Park was his worst layout. Really? Jurassic Park I would put as maybe his third best. Okay, we have very different tastes. Yeah, I just that 180 ramp doesn't I was going to put this at about Jurassic Park's I I think this is maybe his third or fourth best layout, but it's not as good as Jaws and it's not as good as Godzilla. I think this is better than this ends up being a better layout than Jaw. I wasn't high on Jaw's layout really. I thought I think once I I wasn't sure at first, but as I've now been able to play it more, just the way the various feeds into the that whole left side. Um, again, my least favorite part about Jaws is that 180 ramp and Godzilla's 180 ramp for the left ramp shop pisses me off, too. But for me, Jaws was that 180 ramp. I think he did have a significant compromise in his design because of a mech feature that that shark fin. say what you want how fun it is, but I think it really compromised the geometry of that game and the and the shot layout of it for better or worse. And then I think the little flipper shooting to drop targets or back up I I that's just not A+ stuff to me. Okay. Where I'm not seeing I'm not seeing any egregious layout geometry stuff here. I think this looks like maybe his most fun layout. I don't know. This has so many linking combo flowy shots that Yeah, but that's just a again we got that for years with fan layouts that you can pass between the two upper flippers is like no different than passing between two lower flippers. Like it doesn't mean anything to me to say anything. Doesn't mean anything to me inherently. I'm not saying it's not fun. I'm just saying like this actually looks like the least mechanically interesting game he's had. That's two Iron Maiden witches. What? See, I think this is like his most Nope. the the little the the subway ball block lock thing is inherently like we've seen tons of people do mechs like that. The monkey blocking the the the ball isn't as interesting as the fling eat the ball from from uh Jur Jurassic Park. The little kickback thing doesn't match the fascinating game state change and aesthetic integration of the Godzilla building. Again, I'm I'm comparing premium LE versions to premium. What he's done here is he this is mechanically more interesting than Jaws but yeah but it does so to a point that still pushes flow which I think is very difficult to do he hasn't had a single game that didn't push flow saying it's like maybe the James Bond 25th I I can't comment on that one but yeah it's more classic flow but it's still Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well given the No game like he's not unless he wants to stop the ball his all of his games are are flow games. I they're not fan layouts but they're flow games. I Yeah. Is this flowier than the others? Maybe. But but mechanically, it's I It's less interesting to me. Like maybe it's cuz he's got multiple me like cool bouncy spider, cool uh subway ballock, cool uh ape block path or but compared to just like a a a huge centerpiece thing like the the building drop on on Godzilla. And again, that that captive ball with the magnet slinging around on Godzilla was so innovative. Everything here I've seen before. I've never seen an ape hit over a subway car that's locking balls. Let's not I'm I'm either I'm using a little hyperbole or being way too nuanced. It's like we've seen plenty of things where something like we just saw X-Men where they had the Sentinel hands block shots and stuff like that's cool, too. Yeah, but I saw it first. So, this one is interests me less inherently. Oh, okay. All right. Like, I've seen it already. I see your argument. I do. I do. Don't get Don't get me wrong. I'm I'm trying to nitpick here because the game looks great. I mean, what do you want me to say? That's right. What do you want me to What do you want me to do? Like, do I think I'm going to do I think I'm going to hate this game? No. Do I think I'm going to really enjoy this game? Yes. I I mean, I don't know what to tell you. At some point in your being in pinball, you'll own this game as will everybody else in pinball. Like, this is another one of those He's done it. This never sells as much as Godzilla though. No, no way. Again, time kind of thing. But I Godzilla Yeah, Godzilla is of its time. And there were things that worked in Godzilla's favor that are completely unfair. But even if this game is better than Godzilla will not outsell Godzilla. I think this game could sell more than Jaws. And I I don't know how, but I think it could. I I'm going to I'm going to say no. I'm going to say you're wrong, but it has a better shot than out selling Godzilla. The difference where I have to hedge is Jaws is such a better theme than this and you know games true and and I think you may be more down on Jaws than than where would you rate Jaws in his pantheon of don't have enough time but I okay I actually ended up liking it way more than I thought I would. People like it some people like it more than Godzilla. The rules too. the rule. I would even I would argue I enjoy the rules of Jaws better than I do Godzilla.