Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

The Pinball Show Ep 12: Is Pinball Ready For The Main Stage?

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 24m·analyzed·May 4, 2020
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Pinball Show covers industry updates and Sharp family interviews amid pandemic production challenges.

Summary

In this Pinball Show episode, hosts Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel discuss pandemic-era pinball industry developments, featuring TPN correspondent reports on Jersey Jack, American Pinball, and Spooky. Notable content includes interviews with the Sharp family (Josh, Zach, and Roger) from Loser Kid Pinball Podcast covering Raw Thrills arcade success, Stern's production line efficiency improvements, and industry outlook. Zach reveals acquiring Big Lebowski pinball as a trade-in, sparking debate about collector culture and game pricing.

Key Claims

  • Raw Thrills' Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles arcade was their quickest title to reach 1,000 units sold

    high confidence · Josh Sharp (Raw Thrills CFO) interview on Loser Kid Pinball Podcast, relayed by host

  • Stern Pinball now has three production lines, including a dedicated conversion line for overseas-to-domestic power configuration changes

    high confidence · Zach Sharp (Stern Director of Marketing) interview on Loser Kid Pinball Podcast

  • It takes approximately 30 man-hours to build one complete pinball machine at Stern

    high confidence · Zach Sharp response to Loser Kid Pinball Podcast question

  • Stern is aiming for three cornerstone titles in 2020

    high confidence · Zach Sharp statement; Dennis expresses skepticism about achievement

  • Jersey Jack Pinball will enable Wi-Fi updates for full ISO file disk images, not just Delta upgrades

    high confidence · Keith Johnson (JJP Director of Software) interview via Buffalo Pinball podcast

  • Jersey Jack discontinued Pirates of the Caribbean production due to lack of demand at the time

    high confidence · Keith Johnson explanation in interview

  • American Pinball hired Dave Brennan as technical service manager effective May 4th

    high confidence · Kaz/Brian Kosner TPN correspondent report

  • Josh Sharp told Stern's licensing director Jody Dankberg to acquire TMNT license based on Raw Thrills' arcade success

    medium confidence · Josh Sharp public statement in interview about contacting Dankberg

Notable Quotes

  • “No one should spend that much on a pinball machine.”

    Zach Minney @ ~mid-episode — Expresses buyer's remorse about Big Lebowski acquisition despite acknowledging it as a good player

  • “It's not worth fifteen thousand dollars but then why do you have it because I could and I wanted to play it and I'm running out of options on pins I haven't owned”

    Zach Minney @ ~mid-episode — Reveals collector motivation: acquisition for collection completeness rather than pure value assessment

  • “I'm turning into Kaneda, and I don't like it.”

    Zach Minney @ ~mid-episode — Self-aware reference to collector obsession pattern; indicates community awareness of problematic collecting behavior

  • “pinball is like catching up price-wise to these big units”

    Zach Minney @ ~mid-episode — Observes pricing convergence between arcade video game systems and pinball machines

  • “There's no way. No, no. You're going to see them. We will.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~late episode — Confident assertion that manufacturers will release machines despite COVID disruption

  • “I don't think we have the strength to tolerate another lockdown.”

    Zach Minney @ ~late episode — Commentary on American pandemic fatigue and social tolerance limits; contextualizes production uncertainty

Entities

Zach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonJosh SharppersonZach SharppersonRoger SharppersonKeith JohnsonpersonJody DankbergpersonDave BrennanpersonStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: COVID resurgence risk in fall could trigger phase-back restrictions and further production slowdown

    medium · Zach expresses doubt about American capacity for second lockdown; predicts phase regression rather than full reopening progression

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern's conversion line infrastructure for rapid overseas-to-domestic power configuration changes

    high · Zach Sharp described dedicated production line and efficiency improvements as major operating focus

  • ?

    community_signal: TPN correspondent network providing manufacturer updates; Loser Kid Pinball conducting high-quality industry interviews

    high · Multiple correspondent reports (Ken Rudberg JJP, Kaz American Pinball, Dr. John Spooky); hosts praise Sharp family interviews as 'grand slam'

  • ?

    community_signal: Collector behavior pattern recognized in pinball community; high-value acquisitions driven by completion rather than value assessment

    medium · Zach Minney explicitly references becoming 'like Kaneda'; acknowledges Big Lebowski purchase as illogical collector compulsion

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Monster Bash remake criticized for clunky fan layout despite strong theme and presentation

    medium · Dennis disputes Monster Bash A-tier ranking; compares unfavorably to Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.252

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
0:19
It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Welcome back Muggles to another episode of the Pinball Show Episode 12 to be exact And I am one of your hosts Zach Minney Alongside my co-host and host with the most in my heart Dennis Creasel How's it going? It's going great I don't know why you opened with the Muggles They're never going to be a Harry Potter pinball machine Well, I don't know You remind me of a Muggle Isn't that like a hybrid designer dog? The Muggles it's yeah i'm sure it's like a labradoodle but with flair hey don't hate on my doodles now do you have labradoodles well i got the the golden doodles they're little mini golden doodles mini golden doodles okay well that sounds like something that one scribbles while they're on the phone with you oh expensive mutts oh but they're so precious pooping everywhere yes they are have they pooped in your new pool yet no it's what we call a floater in the industry we got a floater it's not a baby ruth yeah i saw some photos of your pool on the facebook oh my wonderfully tacky pool all above ground and oval shaped is that like a 21 footer it's a 21 footer you know your pools you know your above ground pools i merely uh played the angle of the light versus the people that were in the pool and did some rough calculations and knew what the standard sizes were. I used your daughter as a sundial. Yeah, exactly.
1:58
Oh, man. What have you been up to, dude? Nothing. We're getting close-ish to starting to release our lockdown status in the state. I've got another week at least, though, in my county.
2:11
So I've been busy with a lot of the preparations where that was all getting ready to be announced last week. So work-wise, there was a lot of, well, what are we going to do locally? What are the plans? And it's like, I don't know what the state plan is. Yeah. It was really, you know, I'm not going to whine about work a bunch. But it was weird because at the start of the week, I was being told, well, the state wants to run the plan by you for feedback, like by my group. And then by the end of the week, they're just kind of like, screw it. Here's the plan. and in between I'm on all these calls and I'm like are you guys like is this just politics and you're pretending you want my opinion because I'd rather you just tell me you don't care and then I can quit like trying to set up a committee to review this and no one said anything so I chalked it up to don't care and that saved me a lot of time hashtag don't care so have you got out at all I go grocery shopping once a week do you get the deli meat or do you get the package No, no. I've done more of the freezer bowls sort of thing because I can store them and I don't have to worry about eating them right away if I don't. I dropped the ramen, though, so it's basically just the frozen. Dropped the ramen? Yeah, yeah. I got tired of it. A little too much sodium? Yes. Were you plumping up? Yeah. I think I've lost about five pounds since this all started. This ramen's making me thirsty. yeah i went to chicago yesterday on some pinball drop-offs and pickups and i gotta tell you chicago doesn't seem to give a shit about the pandemic there was people everywhere well and that's been part of our issue as well one of the one of the counties neighboring county that was very aggressive about pushing for getting a statewide plan has been one of the most aggressive about wanting us to phase all this out. And it's the same person, the same health officer. And I asked someone, why is he, it seems like he did a 180. So I'm a little confused. And they're like, oh, no one's listening anymore. And he's like, they're not going to listen to us. Let's loosen things up now to keep whatever credibility we can still have in case we have to tighten it again later, that they still at least sort of respect us. Well, because at this, yeah, it's sort of a, this is an interesting test. And this is my intellectual question that I have. Oh, test the intellectual question. Well, just a theory one. If this were like a more of a – it had the same spread rate, but it was more like an Ebola. Let's say it killed 25 percent. Would we actually respect the orders anymore? Because I'm thinking we would not. 25 percent, yes. I think we would. But let's say it still skews. So that's mostly like that's the average kill rate, but all the testing is the same, so it's still mostly older people, immunocompromised people. I don't know. I don't know if America can control itself that long. That is a really good point. On the streets of Chicago, it's downtown. Downtown Chicago, a little scary for me just because I'm not used to a big city. So I always hate going to these metropolitan areas downtown because it feels claustrophobic to me. and everybody seems like they've got an edge on me because they're street smart and I'm like cornfield smart so everybody's wearing their masks though I even went to a gas station Dennis that I was going to go in because I had to take a tinkle and the sign like really big they had to print this on like more than your eight and a half by 11 but it said no mask no service wow well looky there meanwhile stillwell oklahoma had to lift their mask mandate because the people were going out to the stores and yelling at the employees and threatening them with violence like it was their fault that there was a government mandate what is wrong with people yes i was in chicago i even drove past there was this pool and spa place and real big on the lcd screen so i knew it was up to date it said we are open and it said mask friendly like number one why is a pool place open are they essential and number two mask friendly like as opposed to what yeah unfriendly no we hate masks we yell at your mask and we we we degrade it emotionally i don't know what that means no the whole essential honestly that's an interesting thing too of course because and that people are rightly upset about like well why does home depot get to be open but bob's hardware not i mean these are they're fair those are fair things to ask about but anyway so i just think people are kind of like we need to and there are a number of places are on the downward side of the curve so i'm not i did i did want to tell you this so i've got my skype opened up right now video wise and i've got it askew uh where you they got it askew because Because behind me is something I did, Dennis. A chair. And it looks torn.
Jersey Jack Pinball
company
American Pinballcompany
Raw Thrillscompany
Spooky Pinballcompany
Big Lebowskigame
Jurassic Park Premiumgame
Monster Bashgame
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (TMNT) arcadegame
Loser Kid Pinball Podcastmedia
Buffalo Pinball Guysorganization
The Pinball Network (TPN)organization
Kanedaperson
Scott Deniseyperson

market_signal: Backorders continuing to accumulate despite production constraints; customer demand remains strong

high · Zach Sharp noted backorders building as factor in production timeline discussion

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Dave Brennan hired by American Pinball as Technical Service Manager; will continue streaming with TurboGrafx-7

    high · Kaz TPN correspondent report confirmed Brennan starting May 4th with instructional video plans

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball pricing convergence with arcade video game systems (~$15k range); sustainability questioned

    medium · Zach notes Raw Thrills Walking Dead unit ~$15k vs Big Lebowski same range; questions value proposition

  • ?

    product_strategy: Heavy Metal pinball reveal pushed back from March 2020 timeline

    medium · Dennis references delayed Heavy Metal formal reveal; expects gap before next cornerstone release

  • ?

    rumor_hype: TMNT pinball from Stern highly anticipated; Josh Sharp publicly recommended license based on arcade success

    medium · Josh Sharp stated he contacted Jody Dankberg about TMNT; Zach asks 'Is anyone going to be surprised when TMNT is announced by Stern later this year?'

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern targeting three cornerstone titles for 2020 despite pandemic production uncertainty

    high · Zach Sharp stated goal; Dennis expresses skepticism; historically Stern has missed or redefined this metric (2019: Munsters, Black Knight, Jurassic Park, Stranger Things, Elvira)

  • ?

    technology_signal: Jersey Jack implementing Wi-Fi ISO file updates instead of requiring USB/manual uploads

    high · Keith Johnson detailed capability change in Buffalo Pinball Guys interview

    • 7:09
    No, it's just the light reflecting. It's actually very comfy. That's a very comfy chair. But no, I'm going to reveal for you and for the audience a purchase that I made yesterday. A trade-in, actually. And this machine epitomizes me. Is that even a word? Can you use epitome as a verb?
    7:31
    Yeah, let's say you can. Sure. Why not? All right. So it's probably above-ground pool themed. Wipeout? Yeah. Spring break. No, it's a pinball machine that I'm an idiot, and it makes me look like just your run-of-the-mill, dumbass, got-to-have-it collector. All right. I fell into the trap, and I'm loving every second. Am I supposed to guess? No, I just want you to see it, and I know you're going to make fun of me. I don't know what's wrong with me. I have an illness. Something is definitely going wrong because behind me, ladies and gentlemen.
    8:11
    Oh, geez. I know. I'm sorry. Oh, geez. Zach. I knew you'd give me a hard time. What am I going to do, Dennis? I mean. I had to have it. I hear it's a decent player. It is really great. I can't say that it's a bad game. I've never played it, but I've heard a lot of people say that it's fun. I feel like an idiot because no one should spend that much on a pinball machine. That's the thing. I think it's fair to say it's not worth its fun in the dollars it goes for. And I don't even think that theme is that good. Oh, and now that's where I draw the line. I saw that movie like twice. that theme is maybe one of the greatest and most perfectly fitted pinball themes in existence in history i tell you all the way back to uh roger sharp days it's probably obvious to folks but obvious uh obvious to me at this stage now that we're talking about the big lebowski yeah you have mentioned a couple of times to me before i didn't think you were being serious though because i didn't either i mean what are you going to get next a magic girl well i mean all At least the Big Lebowski is playable. I feel like I'm turning into Kaneda, and I don't like it. Did he ever own it? No, but he worships it. He's the only dumbass like me that would spend so much on a Tales of Arabian Nights. What's wrong with me, Dennis? Save me. Don't let me become a troll. I can't save you from yourself. That's not my role.
    9:48
    So I got a Big Lebowski as a trade-in. What a hell of a trade-in, isn't it? Yeah. So here's the trade-in. Let's see what you would take.
    9:58
    Essentially, details here and over there, but the big Lebowski, like new, it's got an extra motherboard, extra hard drive, I believe, as a backup just in case, comes with a rug, or he traded in towards a Jurassic Park Premium, brand new, and a brand new Monster Bash remake special edition.
    10:22
    Well. don't it's essentially over about 15 yeah i mean 15k again it's hard for me zach because i've never played big lebowski so i don't know if it's my sort of and i i've actually i think i've only seen maybe 30 seconds of gameplay so i can't even i can't even describe to you what the layout looks like i'm that ignorant of the game so given that and given i like jurassic park so much I normally pull a Greg Bone and say quantity over quality, even if – and to be fair, I think it would be very hard for Big Lebowski to live up to the gameplay of Jurassic Park.
    11:03
    Agreed. Just because of the depth and what Keith did with the layout. You like the theme better probably on Jurassic Park. That said, I do not like Monster Bash. You heard it here. I don't understand why Monster Bash is considered an A tier game from WMS I don't see I'm turning into Kaneda you're turning into me I've been saying that for a while it doesn't do anything for me it's beautiful I like the humor I like the sound I like the theme I don't like how it plays I don't like the rules you don't like how it plays that's strange I think it's a clunky fan layout wow I look at Medieval Madness and I look at Attack from Mars and then I look at this wannabe and it just disappoints it just doesn't appeal to me it never has so it's hard to say for you I will say my first impressions of Lebowski you heard it here because I've played the rickety ones at the shows and stuff very few times but my first impressions the thing is built like a f***ing tank it reminds me it's Bally Williams through and through I mean all the parts are Bally Williams so I like that the interior feels like a JJP and the exterior cabinetry feels more akin to like a Spooky if that makes sense so okay well I guess that just means that they went with sort of their own thing with a blend of stuff with but WMS under the hood it shoots really really well and there is a lot of code in there so there's plenty of depth um I don't think this is crazy Lord of the Rings depth but it's really good depth um it's it's not worth fifteen thousand dollars but then why do you have it because I could and I wanted to play it and I'm running out of options on pins I haven't owned We have at least one collector here in the Kansas City area I know who's really into rare stuff. That's his thing. Into rare.
    13:17
    I probably know him. Yeah, you might. I mean, he doesn't hold on. If he gets tired of a game, he sells it. But it's not about the quality of the game. It's about getting anything that's obscure. There's a couple Kansas City guys I know of that have really, really nice collections, but they're not afraid to move them whenever they're done. Well, you know what the issue is pretty much. No matter what, no matter how much money you have, space is always a factor. And people don't like to, even if they could, they don't like to constantly upgrade their house. Yeah, that's true. You either become the guy who sticks it all in storage and can't play it, or you move them along. So, listeners, stay tuned to Straight Outta the Middle of Pinball Show for an upcoming review of the big Lebowski. In the meantime, later on in this episode in Deals of the Week, you're going to hear two of my pinball machines that I have to sell personally. in order to fund this big Lebowski. No, this was a trade. You're fine. So you ready to kick it over to our TPN correspondents? Yeah.
    14:15
    You sound so thrilled. Yeah. Okay. You know why you're sad? Because Craigie's not in here this week. Oh, I was going to ask, is Craig going to be even more Craigie this go? Nope. He's not. He's like exponentially Craigifying himself. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    14:36
    Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Nick Lane and Kevin Manning, the Buffalo Pinball Guys, had the opportunity to interview Keith Johnson, the director of software for Jersey Jack Pinball, this last week. Keith is responsible for coding some of the deepest and most loved pinball machines of all time, including the Simpsons Pinball Party, Lord of the Rings, and Jersey Jack's own Pirates of the Caribbean. Not only did they talk about the history of Keith's career and the development of games that he's worked on, They talked about a technological change that is coming up soon with Jersey Jack, where you're going to be able to update your machines live with Wi-Fi, as we've discussed in previous podcasts. The difference is that this isn't just for the smaller Delta upgrades, but the full ISO file disk image update, which is going to be a big help for people so they don't have to download it to a USB stick and upload it onto their machine. Keith was also asked about Jersey Jack Pinball's Pirates of the Caribbean, and why did they stop running it, and why are there no more? The reason is, according to Keith, that at the time that they decided to stop running it, there was no demand for Pirates of the Caribbean. You get to a point where you have to decide to buy parts or to just call it quits, and at that point there really wasn't any demand, so it only made financial sense to stop making machines. Again, this interview happened through Buffalo Pinball's Bro Do You Even Talk Pinball, podcast and I'd say it's highly recommended. You should definitely check out that podcast if you get a chance. This has been Ken Rudberg for The Pinball Show.
    16:12
    Hey, this is Kaz with an American Pinball update. American Pinball announced the hiring of Dave Brennan as technical service manager. Dave has years of repair and restoration experience. He's going to assist customers and distributors with tech support and repairs. Dave has recently had Twitch streams with TurboGrafx-7 here on the Pinball Network. I reached out to Dave and he told me that he will be starting today. He is excited to use his passion for pinball to help American Pinball and the customers. He will still be doing his own projects and streaming with TurboGrafx-7. One of the first things he'll be doing is working on instructional videos that include game setup, code updates, and maintenance. And also today, May 4th, is the last day to enter the Oktoberfest High Score Challenge. Check out the Facebook page for more details. For the Pinball Show, this is Brian Kosner.
    17:05
    Welcome to this week's Spooky Haggis Industry Talk update with Dr. John on the Pinball Show. Nothing much to report from Haggis as they're still awaiting parts arrivals from overseas. On the spooky front, there's been some talk, especially about rail positions and security on the playfields and how these can be modified to improve the flow of the shots in early games. For those who don't know, in the old days, back in the 80s and 90s, games were placed in test locations around Chicago and had the heck played out of them for a number of months prior to release to see what modifications had to be made to improve the game. Unfortunately we can't do this nowadays because of leakage in the interwebs. So games are tested at the factory and often these are prototypes to find any issues. When manufacturing eventually does take place sometimes small variations have to be made in the manufacturing process to improve the gameplay for the final product. This happens with all manufacturers and can be seen in technical release bulletins from manufacturers and on that doyen of knowledge pin side. There's been some concerns that Spooky may not be listening to some suggestions being made but I can reassure everyone as confirmed by Scott Denisey, modifications in construction are being taken under consideration and being altered when production restarts, especially on the loop shot under the spinner rail. So rest assured, later arrival of games should have this altered to make your game flow as much as possible. Well, that's it for this week. We'll have to have more news next week. See ya.
    18:51
    It's always great to hear from the correspondents, Zach. Oh, well, look at that. It is always great. They're helping out. I like that. Not a whole lot of news. So let's talk about something that they didn't touch on at all.
    19:04
    The Sharps. Let's. The Sharps. We got Roger Sharp on the two-part series, two-part miniseries. Yep. After-school special. I've gotten through both of those. Okay, from the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. Yes. So they had to go for the trifecta, which also included Josh Sharp, who is the Raw Thrills CFO, and many of you know is a competitive pinball player. President of the International Flipper Pinball Association. Yeah, that's right. And then Zach Sharp was on another episode that they aired, where they interviewed Zach Sharp, which is Stern Pinball's Director of Marketing and competitive pinball player and champion.
    19:42
    You know what? Before we get into the little nuggets that they provided, I'm going to say that our cohort in pinball media this week hit a home run.
    19:54
    Yep. Wasn't a sacrifice fly. It was a home run. They didn't bunt? Nope. Didn't bunt. Didn't hit a grounder to shortstop. Nope. They hit a home run. Or French didn't like home run. Grand slam. Grand salami? It's a grand slam. It was just another home run with fancier stuff. But former host Ken Cromwell will appreciate our attempts to talk about baseball. Slam dunk. Maybe we should stay that for now. It was a slam dunk. Yeah. It was a slam dunk. It was a goal. It was a hat trick. Hey, there are three of them. The three sharps. It's a hat trick. There we go. Oh, I like that. But they did well. They did really well. And then Buffalo Pinball, we're going to talk about that in a minute, turned around and interviewed Keith Johnson. one of my favorite interview pieces that's been done in pinball. I have it downloaded. I've got these other sharp ones downloaded, but I haven't been able to hear them yet because I am woefully behind just because... Thanks, COVID! Yeah, because of COVID! It like no I tried to start playing them while I working and I can I not listening So I have to turn them off because I like I sorry i answered three emails and i didn pay attention the last 45 minutes of what was coming i do that as well and then i rewind it yep yeah and then i feel like i just wasting my time trying so yeah hashtag thanks covid bomber but i have these highly detailed notes so i can work ah not too bad not too bad so they interviewed josh sharp again the rothrill cfo uh and he had a couple of interesting little nuggets that i noted here he talked about obtaining the tmnt or the teenage mutant ninja turtles license for the arcade game for those of you who aren't familiar raw thrill is manufacturers of these large and dynamic arcade systems that you oftentimes see in family entertainment centers and other locations around uh around the country it's the walking dead the Jurassic Park ride-along. I think they're the only major U.S. manufacturer of arcade video games at this point. Okay. I think. They run a big operation over there. Yeah, yeah. They're a sizable manufacturer, too. So a lot of what we talk about in pinball can translate very well because they have lines. They need a lot of parts to get this stuff put together, and these things sell at high price points. And they're partially run by Sharp.
    22:20
    That's becoming a trend. Right. But no, they obtained the TMNT license for their arcade game in 2017. He talked about that and talked about how great of a seller and just a dynamite hit that thing has been for them. He also indicated that back then when they attained the license, he contacted Jody Dankberg, who we know is the director of licensing for Stern Pinball. and he told Mr. Dankberg, you've got to get this license because of the huge sales return that they are experiencing over there. I found it interesting. That doesn't interest me so much because that's expected that he would do that, but I found it interesting that he made that public.
    23:02
    Maybe I'm reading into it too much. Well, I mean, is anyone going to be surprised when TMNT is announced by Stern later this year? What would Ken Cromwell say? I'd be more surprised if my head was sewn to the carpet right now. But Josh Sharp went on to talk about once this game was released, the arcade version of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in 2018, it was their quickest to 1,000 units sold.
    23:27
    Wow. Do you know how much they sold the arcade for? I don't know. I know that those machines – The price on Raw Thrill stuff really ranged. I mean, they got stuff that's five figures. so very true very true and if you guys are interested in a ralph reels do you distribute for them now too i get my customers what they want that's that's not what you usually that crap you shovel when we talk spooky or something i find a way to get my customers their rick and morty's maybe uh maybe favorite our website you might see stuff pop up there the arcade game is really cool They sell for, off the top of my head, I think they're higher sales because that's a bigger unit. I know the Walking Dead unit, it's all enclosed and everything. That's like $15,000, I think, retail. So it's hefty. But last time I was talking to Josh Sharp, I'm like, honestly, prices five years ago for these arcades seem crazy for these operators. But they make a lot of money, number one. And then number two, pinball is like catching up price-wise to these big units. The main thing I think on the arcade video game side is that that market still is primarily operators who are making money off of those games. I don't think people are buying a lot. There's no home sales now. I don't think there are a lot of home sales for new Raw Thrills products. Especially when, from what I understand, the depreciation on the video game arcade side is significant. So you can actually save a lot of money going used other than those sort of unobtainium titles. But all that said, you're telling me you could have gotten that full enclosed Walking Dead instead of Big Lebowski.
    25:15
    Yeah. I say. Interesting. To that I say. I just found some of this stuff interesting. He also talked about, because we don't get Josh Sharp talking too much about Raw Thrills because it is an arcade company. We don't hear that too much because we all listen to pinball podcasts. And his brother was equally impressive. Zach Sharp from Stern Pinball talked about production lines. Did you know that Stern Pinball actually has three production lines? Yes, I did know that. Okay, I figured you would. He talked about two of the lines being the main lines, right? And you just run titles all day. But one is now a conversion line. Do you know what that means? No, I do not know. So the conversion line is something that they've really been hammering home this last year or a new focus for them. They said talking about the conversion between overseas games and domestic games, there's a power difference, right? Yes, yes. And before, like, if they were getting ready to ship some over and they needed some domestically, forget it. Trying to transfer all that power over. But now they've found a way to make this much more efficient, clean, and easy. So one of these lines is dedicated for just very quickly, hey, this is set up for Australia. Now we need it for the U.S. Boom, boom, boom. We're done. Box it back up and go. No longer do they have to rewire and all of this kind of stuff. So that's been a big operating system and hardware focus. I know that they've been working on the last half a year, if not longer. I bet you they're the only manufacturer that has the volume overseas to warrant needing a whole conversion line. That's right. So they can very quickly, he talked about jumping back and forth. If we need to pull some domestics for overseas, boom, we can do them instantaneously. And he just talked about the overall efficiency and the benefits of that. They are still aiming for three cornerstone titles this year. Nope. Not going to happen. I'm just coming from the director of marketing. He can aim. He can aim for what he wants. Zach, here I am outside of the industry with no knowledge whatsoever telling you it ain't going to happen. Because that's what podcasters do.
    27:33
    We just make claims. Well, we just make claims. It's fact. Well, no. This is just my opinion. But I think that just the number of lost months, I just don't see it. Why do you got to be such a din-din downer? Well, I don't see it as a negative. A dinny downer. The three cornerstone thing is like an internal target that they have. They've missed it before. I don't see it being a big deal to miss it. Yeah, but you know how they do with that January release. They can be a little sneaky and be like,
    28:07
    Stranger Things is a cornerstone. Cornerstone. Yeah, that's what they got it out. They got technically they got the three out. But the year before, Munsters was. I know. I still say Stranger Things was a Q4. We've seen them before the year's end. So it was it was a Q4 to me or, you know, into the year. They got four Cornerstones out in 2019 because it was Munsters, Black Knight, Jurassic Park and Stranger Things. Yeah, that's true. And Elvira. That's not Cornerstone though. I know, but as a studio, that's impressive. Yeah. Do we really care if it's Cornerstones? Like, Elvira is a substantial game. Do we really care if they didn't get Stranger Things out and they also didn't put out Munsters, like Munsters counted the year before and then it had been two Cornerstones? That's what he was saying. He's like, look, these are just guidelines for us. That's just our goals, but we're not pressed to have to have to do that or anything. If TMNT is a huge gangbuster seller, they're not going to want to move on early. That's all I'm thinking. And with that zombie Yeti art, it's probably going to be a gangbuster seller because, you know, art sells games, Zach. What's your guess? When do we see the next title from Stern? Because I heard people talking about it on Facebook. And one person said, like, with so much confidence, we will not see a Stern. We will not see any manufacturer release another pinball machine in 2020. I'm like, there's no way. No, no. You're going to see them. We will. The only thing is they need to do their formal reveal of heavy metal still, and that got pushed back out of March like they wanted. So they're going to do that first, but I don't think it's going to be a huge time lag. I still think we will see the next Cornerstone by August. Okay. I tend to agree. Because I think they'll be able to get their lineup at least in some capacity, even if it's a reduced production speed, by then. Yeah, he talked about that ramping up. He said, you know, it depends on how you want to define it, but he can see it not being, you know, you walk in the first day and the line is up 100% cranking out 50 plus machines. But part of my issue with the ability to successfully aim for the three cornerstones is there is a lot of public health concern that we will see a COVID resurgence in the fall and we may have to become more strict on social distancing again at that point, even if we loosened up over the summer. You don't think Americans will be over it? Nah, hell, we're over it. Oh, no. I can't. I don't think we would, as a country, I don't think we have the strength to tolerate another lockdown. Oh, wow. But, no, not to sound too negative, but Americans and people telling them what to do, this has strained that to a degree that I think it would be very, very difficult. but I could see like in these multi-phase reopenings, even though people are seeing things like here in Kansas, in theory, we could reach our final phase as of June 15th. It's not going to happen because there's no way we're going to meet those metrics. So we might go from like a phase three back to a phase two where business is still there, but maybe we're saying, okay, but you need to keep six feet apart and you need to keep at 50% occupancy and things like that so that production is going to slow up. And with those things, people have less money to spend. So it's all, you know, it all just sort of. Gotta love America. It all is interrelated is all. So that's just why I'm skeptical. Damn it, I'll put ketchup on my hot dog if I want to. Don't tread on me.
    31:38
    America. Lose Your Kid Pinball Podcast asked Zach Sharp, how long does it take to build a pinball machine? That's a tough question to answer, of course. But he talked about for one pinball machine, if we're just talking one pinball machine, from the start to the finish. It takes approximately 30 man hours. I thought that was rather quick. We were discussing, Dennis, when the next title would drop, but he also said keep in mind that they still have a lot of machines to build. These back orders continue to build up. That's another factor that I'm keeping in mind. All this demand for not everyone got the Stranger Things who wanted it. What? Call me now.
    32:21
    No, no. I've got them. They've got to go through Trent. I've got them ready for you. No, there are titles, and we'll hear about it in Pinball Market Trends, that I almost want before a new title. Like, I'm dying here. I'm losing sales every single day to the likes of, well, you have to look at it. You've got Jurassic Park Premiums. I know that there's a huge demand still for those. Those are like getting a Lebowski right now. They're as hot as a Rick and Morty. Hotness, hotness, hotness. People, I've had people call Dennis. They're like, look, I don't want a Jurassic Park Pro. I want the premium, but the premiums are gone. So I'll just settle with the Pro. These people are settling with the $6,000 pinball machine. It's a hard life when you got to settle. Wow. We. That's what stay-at-home orders do. They turn people into settlers. I think Josh or Scott over at Loser Kid, they ask the question that you have to ask as an interviewer in pinball media. they said how soon are we going to see the next title once the factory opens up i've never asked that question just by the way you almost have to ask it no i don't ask it man i'm just telling you i don't have to ask granted i also very rarely do interviews yeah that's fair that's fair you didn't ask why didn't you ask robert muller that hey rob bobby pinball when are you gonna when are you gonna see a game wow this is a long time ago that we did that that might have been my last interview i think it was i think it was you sure asked me on to come on i mean we had joe schober on but that was as a guest host it wasn't an interview so man did my numbers do okay when you were oh when you were guest yeah yeah but not like what they did for loser kid i still think i hold the title i think you do i think i hold the crown Move over, Keith Owen, the Sharps. So, yeah, he did say he wasn't going to answer that question, but he did say we are ready to build a lot of new stuff. I think that's about the most you're going to get from a Zach Sharp. Probably. He is a trained professional. He's damn good. His whole thing is he cannot confirm nor deny. Oh, the talk about confirmation. The beautiful and wonderful, sexy, talented hosts over at the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast, they brought up the mini competition series pinball you know that's what i've coined it you know it's a work in progress that title but the idea kind of sucks so keep the idea is is one that your boy zach and roger sharp share together we're we're together mr sharp and i but they i like how you i like how you're going to send your difference it's like it's zach meaning and the sharps together with a stretch well yeah that's you know the zach and the other zach that's how i think about it is that not fair uh it's probably inaccurate but you think the ideology of uh a roger sharp is more aligned to this zach myself than his son zach no i just appreciate you thinking about it thank you well that's me just because something on surface may seem stupid doesn't mean there isn't something worth thinking about underneath yeah so they asked zach sharp about the pitch that i had made publicly and that roger sharp had discussed more as a historical piece uh on the last podcast they asked him about it and zach sharp said and i liked his answer he said look it whatever works to get pinball televised or more exposure he said i don't care he was like well i don't i don't care if you have to climb a mountain and play a ball, climb another mountain, play another ball. If these broadcasters are willing to have pinball, then he don't care what it takes. So I think that's kind of a win for me. I think he's basically saying he totally agrees with what I'm looking to push further and some of the ideas that I and his father share. I think he's on board, right?
    36:34
    No, not really. But he said... I think he'd be willing to hear some other ideas from you. He was being kind. But he also said counter-arguments may be, when you're televising something, the draw of, we're going to kick it over to competition machine number one. He said it just doesn't have the pull that, hey, everybody, we're back, and we're going to kick it over to Star Wars pinball machine, where they're trying to battle the Death Star. Touche. Nicely done, Zach Sharp. That, yeah, he's right. I can't argue that. I'm a rational person, Dennis. Yes, that's why you now have a big Lebowski instead of two other pinball machines. It's just like your opinion, man. So I get that, Zach Sharp, but here's the thing.
    37:25
    I'll kill this whole idea. I'll kill it, if you'd like me to, Dennis. If somebody can tell me, and I don't deal with this. Maybe Jody Dankberg can, because you know Jody listens. He's a regular, I bet. I doubt it. Yeah, he's reached out constantly. Somebody at Stern, JJP, one of these manufacturers that deals in licensing, if they can tell me that running the sound, the video assets, or even the artwork of an intellectual property is fine for different broadcasts because it's like a secondary kind of background. if that's fine then i will kill this and i will no longer talk about it to the detail that i am well i don't know that they can offer you that assurance because well but they'll have a better idea as if look is well can this happen or not and then so that i can modify my pitch that's all they can show those sort of things as long as no one objects does that make sense yeah but why in films do they always change the name of things even unlicensed games to play to play it safe the example i can give you on like twitch and stuff is the with video games technically speaking there is a serious question about whether or not you can actually stream a video game where you are showing the art assets the video assets all of that sort of stuff think about the video cut sequences that's intellectual property the way it happened exactly it is intellectual property the way it happens is the those that release the game look the other way and the reason they look the other way is in theory it's probably a win-win for their product to get that exposure and it results in more sales it's good for any partners that they worked with because it gets more sales, and so they look away. That being said, it could end up being challenged, and given the way the intellectual property laws are, my personal acknowledging that I am not a practicing attorney in the United States is that the intellectual property holder would probably win if they were to go to court against a Twitch streamer, that they would probably be able to win and say that they could prohibit the streaming. And in fact, while no one has gone ahead and accelerated it to court, there have been instances where we've seen it happen. A good case in point was there was a streamer, a video game streamer, and I don't remember if he had gone on some sort of racist parade or what. But one of the game developers was like, we don't like what you're saying, so we're going to use our IP rights and we're going to have you blocked. And you're not going to be allowed to stream our game. Because we can't stop you from doing it on free speech grounds. So we're going to do it on – you're just not allowed to stream this because it's copyright.
    40:20
    We hold the IP. So there's no fair use laws or anything? And we're enforcing it only against you. Well, and that's the argument that some of the Twitch streamers are like, oh, well, we'll argue fair use. But the counterargument is, yeah, but how? You're not offering real criticism. You're sitting there and you're playing our game. It's like airing an entire movie and you Mystery Science Theater 3000 it. That works if it's not under – But it's like if you're just there and talking over it, are you really offering active commentary and criticism the entire time?
    40:54
    I'm not saying there's not an argument there, but I'm saying I think that the IP holder is going to win. That's my judgment. They will win. If they push it, they will win under current law. So that would be an interesting discussion going forward as pinball gets closer and closer to mainstream broadcasting because I think it can get there. They did talk about that a little bit. I know you guys love to hear me talk about it. My summary would be, I love talking about it. I love pushing forward to try to get that. I have some really strong ideas on how it's done and some strong ideas on how it will never get done. And I like to express them. Why not express them here in the podcast? Part of it just helps piss Dennis off, which makes me smile and giggle as well. But it's simple. People are not going to tune in to watch long broadcasts of pinball, period. That's a fact. Let's accept that one. Let's move forward. How do we get this on television? How do we get this on main Twitch streaming? We do so by making it entertaining It the reason that people tune in and watch Greg Bone and I two idiot amateur pinball players talk about pinball more so than any Twitch channel And we get thousands of views just him, Knucklehead McGee, and me arguing and talking about pinball. Pinball podcasts get quite a few listens compared to... The point is, you entertain people. You find characters. I'm not saying go all the way to a WWE, But damn it, if you don't have two or three characters in pinball, you're not going to get airtime. You need a color commentary that's going to give you some character, some strong emotional ties whenever listening to a broadcast. And you need them short games and you need them overproduced. That's it. That's how you get into broadcasting, in my opinion. I think you raise good points with it. But it's not an apples-to-apples comparison to talk about a YouTube-produced show or a podcast versus Twitch streaming. Sure, sure, sure, sure. It's just – Well, hold up. Why not? Because Twitch streaming is not like live – it's live, but it's not like traditional live broadcast. A whole huge thing about how Twitch functions, how it has become, is it is an interaction with the live chat. So it's very difficult to go back and watch a Twitch stream because you are no longer able to engage with the host. And podcasts and YouTube shows can be consumed at any time you want. People do not – what volume do you think people go who watch NFL games actually go and watch a replay of the game versus watching it live? That's the sort of difference there. Good point. So just that's that one little part I would nitpick a little bit and say, yes, podcasts and YouTube shows have higher viewership counts than Twitch. But that's because Twitch is like going to a live theater performance. No one wants to watch the replay. It's all about going and watching the person dance for you and respond to your chat. That's what the most successful channels are, those that engage the chat. Yeah, just chatting is the number one trending category on Twitch. Well, that's what Twitch has become. It's all – And that's my argument though. It's for the entertainment rather than the gameplay. Twitch is known as gameplay. Twitch is mostly – the most popular Twitch streamers are popular because of their personalities. They're usually variety streamers who play different games. So they may have made their name on doing something like Fortnite. But if Ninja, who's over on Mixer now, chooses to move to another game and like go back to Halo, his audience will go with him. It's not about the game. It's about him. Precisely. And that's where I do agree with you about the strength of those personalities and stuff. But regarding the watchability of pinball, that is where things like, and I know you're not a huge fan of it, but like the head-to-head play. You can't play traditional pinball. You've got to change the rules like how they changed rugby's rules for TV. You've got to change the rules.
    45:03
    Because pinball is one of the few games where the better you play, the longer it takes. and that is antithetical to how people want to watch stuff. It's part of what makes baseball drag. If the batters are going well, it just takes forever. In football, you go and you score and then the other team gets to have the ball. So the faster you go, the sooner you're no longer in control anymore.
    45:27
    Darts, same way. Pools, same way. I don't disagree with that, but selfishly, I don't want it to go in that direction and I think you can get by with just cutting it shorter. Not bastardizing the game, just cutting it shorter. Give a main headline. That's it. If you want to treat it like poker, I think you can pull it off. Yes.
    45:55
    Poker's the same way. But obviously that means that's a big shift from what we're seeing on Twitch right now, which is the idea that you're going to watch the tournaments live. No, and I never agreed on that, nor will I ever. I don't think that's the right aim. I just don't. A lot of competitive players want to see it live. And that's why a lot of competitive players have issue with all of my discussions about this.
    46:18
    I just don't know. You just need to become one of them to understand the competitor. You must be the competitor. One of us. You don't have to be good. You're probably a better player than me. No. One of us. I don't know. We should have a battle. No, I don't want you to slap my face.
    46:39
    Would you do commentary with me at an upcoming tournament, you and I, in the booth? I don't know why they would ever allow you to do commentary. I have done commentary. Why? So I don't have a problem with doing commentary. They want it to be entertaining, maybe. If any of you showrunners out there would like Dennis Creasel and I to do commentary of one of your tournaments, and you're going to pay for us to come contact us at the pinball network. I like how you seem to think there's going to be a show this year. Let's move on to Buffalo pinball. On the Brody Even Talk Pinball Show, their monthly podcast, they interviewed Jersey Jack Pinball's Director of Software Development, Keith Johnson. I love that because you can tell Nick and Kevin over at Buffalo Pinball have built nice rapport over the years with Mr. Johnson. and he was very open, very candid, very charismatic with that little side assault that we become accustomed to with Keith Johnson. That's what I like about him, but I always tune in to see what he has to say and I really, really, I talked about it at the top of the show, I really enjoyed the discussion and the pacing and where they took Keith Johnson and his responses. I learned so much about the history of pinball in just this one podcast. So I really, really encourage you guys. Kevin had some video issues at the beginning, so those are off. But I'm telling you, that's how good this product was. Because within five minutes, I no longer even realized it. I messaged those guys and emphatically said, nicely, nicely done. But let's get into it a little bit here. He worked in slots over at Bally. Was it Bally Midway or Bally Williams? I don't know what company it was. He was working with slots. Wanted to work with pinball. Keith's been playing competitive pinball for a long, long, long time. In the 90s. Yeah, in the 90s. So he was working in slots. Wanted to work in pinball. He finally got his shot. He worked on Revenge from Mars. And he was still very proud of that. And I need to put some more time on that game side note. But he was very, very proud of that and talked about the transition from that, everybody being let go. That very next week, he was at Stern Pinball. Keith Johnson talked about before the Simpsons Pinball Party, Stern was chasing the theme Survivor. Oh, I remember that show. Yeah, and Keith Johnson was wanting to work on it because he was a huge fan of the Survivor video series. But he said that the individual who owned the rights to the show, Survivor Overseas, they couldn't come to terms with them. So there was no deal because Stern needed to be able to sell these pinball machines globally. So it was close. We could have seen a Survivor pinball machine. Think about how that theme would have held up in 2020.
    49:39
    Is that show still on? I don't even know. I think it might be. Oh, really? I think it might be, yeah. You'll like this next tidbit. Keith Johnson actually pitched Grand Theft Auto 3. Do you think that would have worked? That was a huge game. That would have been – operators would have loved that one.
    49:58
    I mean, I actually – I played it. I played the first two Grand Theft Autos. But Grand Theft Auto 3 is where they changed the perspective. Yep. And it was – and that's what made – that's what started Rockstar to become what it is today. Now, who is Take-Two? Take-Two Interactive is the – it's like Activision. It's a publishing company that – Gotcha. Okay. I believe they own Rockstar. Yeah, so they pitched Grand Theft Auto 3. Keith Johnson, at that time, real big gamer, he wanted to do that. He said – and he actually is the one that pitched Grand Theft Auto 3, reached out to them, but he said, quote, Take-Two wouldn't have anything to do with us. And then Buffalo asked about video game licensing. I think it was Nick. it was like, look, we all want to know, as a bunch of pinball people, or gamers as well, video gamers, are these companies like Stern, Jersey, are they just not going after video game licenses? Or is the licensing through these video game companies? And apparently, obtaining video game licenses, like the likes of a Super Mario, or a Zelda, or the hell of Fortnite, whatever, for pinball machines, it comes down to the cost. And game developers are not really interested in dealing with what Keith Johnson phrased, small fries. Keith said that companies he has worked for have made pitches. So it doesn't come down to pinball manufacturers being uninterested at all. So we've got to get that out of our mind. Keith believes this may actually change, though, in the future, as game developers are now realizing the popularity of gaming, that their licensing properties can bring some revenue, potentially through their companies. You see all kinds of Minecraft swag and merchandising, Fortnite merchandising. So as these companies are becoming, they're competing with streaming television and TV shows. I mean, they are doing billions in revenue. He also said these large gaming companies now have licensing divisions for their products. So it may be easier in the future. You may start seeing that, But nonetheless, these companies make so much money, and they don't have to make money off of something like this. It makes sense, at least for the successful – I mean a lot of video games go out there, and their teams that don't have a major publisher behind them really do struggle financially. So I think it's important to know while the video game industry is considerably more massive than Hollywood is at this stage, that it's still fairly cutthroat when you get away from the AAA stuff. But when you're talking about the AAAs, you think about – and it makes sense with just about anything. But you think about how much money they make on lunchboxes or something and then how much are they really going to make off of pinball. And that's where – just because the pinball machine is expensive doesn't mean that the licensor was going to make a ton of money off of it. And do they want to invest the time dealing with a pinball company and all this art and stuff that they want? Yeah. Video, audio. It's complex. It's more than a coffee mug where it's just like, oh, we just want a picture of Rick and Morty to stick on the coffee mug. Yeah, somebody marks a red check on a printed glossy picture. And they're like, yeah, it looks good for a lunchbox. But if they're like, okay, they want these assets. They want these voiceovers. They want this. They want to use this. And they're like, whoa, whoa, how much are they paying us? Shit. Go with the lunchbox. And now they're telling these pinball people are telling us that they want their own artists to do hand-drawn art, and we're going to have to look at all that and make sure it fits with our brand. And voiceover likeness because they don't want to pay for the rights. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, tell them to go f**k off. Yeah. That's probably the meetings. So that might not happen anytime soon. But I love that Keith Johnson was talking about the pitches that they made in these, I guess it was the Stern years. he talked about they considered futurama take my money now dennis says you like futurama right yeah but i i i resonate with the concern at the time there because i remember when futurama first came out and i saw it and of course i was i was like a lot of people i was like this isn't simpsons and i turned it off yep that's what i did and i didn't go back and i don't think i'm really missing anything i mean i uh i went and saw uh more i saw futuramas later and then i actually They grew to like Futurama more than The Simpsons. Now, prior to The Simpsons pinball party that they did, we know, ultimately they licensed and they did a boatload of business on, they actually considered Futurama, but they didn't ink the deal, which was surprising to hear Keith Johnson say they actually dodged a bullet because the show was canceled around that time and the climate was just not so hot on that show. So, you know, as we know that it later warmed up to be kind of a cult classic animated series. But he said they kind of dodged a bullet because they probably at that time, with it being canceled, they would have been finishing production of a Futurama pinball machine, the show being canceled. And it probably wouldn't have done well at all. Yeah, I mean, same scenario could have happened if they had gone with Family Guy during season one and two because it got canceled. Okay. It didn't do well. I wasn't aware of that. Yeah, Family Guy came back later. And so did Futurama. And it's the same thing. It can be really hard for these more adult-oriented cartoons to really take hold. I think that's why you see a lot of them on things like Adult Swim on Cartoon Network rather than on the major networks. Yeah, and I don't think – I think the climate in our society, if I'm talking just domestically here, I think it's tending to trend towards a more mature audience like you were saying. So I'm not even sure a Futurama pin would hold up well now. I know I'm going to get people hating that statement, but maybe a smaller boutique, a deep route might run something like a Futurama, maybe an American pinball. But for Stern pinball, I'm not so sure I would be signing up for a Futurama license. Am I crazy? Well, I kind of think the ship has sailed. It does have some nostalgia to it at this. But given it's not an active license, I don't. I wouldn't think Stern would go for it. So he nearly quit Stern during the time of Lord of the Rings, Dennis, because of some internal conflict and fighting between management. He and Gary Stern just did not see eye to eye. Now, so the reason that they got into a tiff, I don't think this was the first nor the last, but Gary Stern wanted that damn Balrog to come out every single game. Keith Johnson did not. he also, Gary Stern wanted that tower to fall more often Keith Johnson did not he even went back later in the interview and talked about if he did change something he'd take all the shit that Gary Stern made him do I knew about the Balrog I didn't know about the tower and this one I kind of side with Gary Stern I would as well especially the Balrog it's like the Iron Monger you're paying for it? Yeah, it's like the Ironmonger and having the Ironmonger come up in the attract mode. I think it does attract people. And I think having the Balrog come out, I mean, it feels epic when I first stepped up to the Lord of the Rings and played it. And the Balrog swung out real early on. For casuals, yeah. And my argument would be, you know, from a player and a competitive pinball player standpoint, I get Keith Johnson staying firm on his feeling that we don't want to shoot that. We don't like to shoot that. We don't like it. So why are we having it come out every damn game just for the sake of it coming out every game? I think there were some perspective differences that were really strong between Keith and Benjamin. Just don't make it worth a lot of points in there. Competitive people will avoid it. It's still dangerous. You don't have to shoot it. Yeah, but it blocks your ring shot. Yeah, it blocks one shot. I guess you'll just have to stick with the other seven. Just start modes. You just have to stick with the other seven.
    58:00
    Going on, talking about the Lord of the Rings. Chris Graner, he said, and he did the sound. He's one of the most epic sound creators in pinball. Chris Graner was actually a Tolkien fan, and Johnson said that he was a big help with the sound package on that. Now, this is something I did not know that I found very interesting. He indicated, Keith Johnson indicated, Lord of the Rings was the first hybrid, he's calling it a hybrid, white star board that actually allowed for more dynamic sound. they used the chip that later was eventually used on sam boards for the sound so lyman sheets came aboard a bit like about a year before all of this lord of the rings kind of during simpsons time and his job was to develop the entirety of the sam system while they were waiting on that they used that same chip and made a hybrid version of the white star board for the sound on lord of the rings and he said that's why you hear such a difference between the quality and the dynamic sound of a Lord of the Rings white star versus another white star system. Do you know that? No, I was not, but I was not aware. But I've never owned Lord of the Rings, so I might have noticed in the schematics that I'd had one. Dammit, Dennis, I'm ready for you to do a Stern dive. I'm ready for you to do an article on Stern Pimple, the history. I tend to prefer things that are actually a little older to talk about. I know you do, but I like the new stuff, and I like your writing. I want a history, but I want it to be the history I've lived all three years of my time in pinball. Four, dick.
    59:34
    I'm probably having my five-year anniversary here soon. And look at me now. So they did have to bring up, why isn't this game being remade? A rumor is, and I love learning new stuff so that I don't have to repeat it when I'm wrong.
    59:49
    Everybody has talked about White Star. You can't pull it over to White Star. Yeah, I've talked about it as well because I've heard those rumblings as well. They asked him about it. How hard would it be to get Lord of the Rings remade? Is it because of the White Star boards? Keith Johnson said, porting over the Lord of the Rings code from a White Star to a modern operating system, he said, quote, wouldn't be that hard, end quote. He said someone who could actually understand how to read the code could probably do it in a month or so. A month or so. That's nothing. So no longer is that a thing now? Or are we just saying this is just per Keith Johnson? On anything else, if they vault a Sam, they don't have to invest that month. I mean, what's the biggest criticism? Well, who knows anymore? I guess any given month. But what's the biggest criticism that Stern often faces? And that's your code isn't as far along as we want it to be. So do you really want to move a programmer off of modern games to just move the code over from White Star to Sam or Spike? Yes. well I mean I would be interested because I'd like to see this game vaulted but that being said when it comes to vaulting any other SAM system they don't have to do any of that they just print up more SAM circuit boards and use those okay if it's true a month or so I think maybe this leads us so this is all speculation but maybe this leads to the idea that either A what I have also said and I believe this to be probably the paramount issue now licensing this theme is going to be damn difficult now or b and or b that they want to do it special and just pulling those dots over in the audio over for 2020 to 2025 whenever they'd redo it they want to make it different and special implementing video implementing sound keith johnson did talk about that he said now that implementing video and sound for a modern operating system that could be quote unlimited in quote time that that takes he laughed he was like yeah that that would be an eternity of work that's a lot of work there think about the hobbit was that just was he talking lcds during that or was he talking like yes if you had to do video and audio package that it would be more complicated moving that from white star to sam no i believe he was talking about creating because you'd have to create everything from i don't think there's a licensing obstacle for lord of the rings especially especially if they were to just keep the dots i think they could get it because it would be easier if they could just it's a has been licensed yeah it's weaker now than than it was when the movies came out so yeah but it's still it's flirting now with that classic cinema category yeah i mean i don't i really don't i I think, especially if you were just to redo it and everything was already prior approved, I think it's simple. I still think it's the modern-day Star Wars. I just do I think that is where we at It not like another pinball company is going to come and get the Lord of the Rings license If they want to make easy money and just re it Why not Hold on Why not Why not
    63:05
    Because it's a has-been license and they don't want to take the gamble. Look at what happened with Hobbit. I think the reason nobody would want to – you know what? The reason that nobody would want to take on a Lord of the Rings license for a pinball machine I think rests because of Keith Johnson, because of how prolific that code is. Nobody wants to try to follow that. Sure. I think that's a fair comparison. It's the fear that Stern had when they redid Simpsons. It's how do you match the original? So people had to ask in chat during the Brody even talk pinball, why was Pirates pulled from the line? When are we going to see Pirates again?
    63:43
    And, Dennis, this is a redemption here. You and I are very smart fellas. Why Pirates was pulled from the line. And Keith Johnson finally came out to say why it was pulled offline. He said, quote, at the time, there was no demand for pirates, end quote. It's what we've been saying, Dennis. Yeah, it's the only reason that never made sense. And he also said that, quote, it was absolutely the right decision to make, end quote, at that time.
    64:14
    He would love for people to enjoy it more and for it to sell more. But he said at that time for the viability of that business and that company, absolutely. He might not have liked it, but it was absolutely the right decision to make. These pinball manufacturers are not designed to endure slow burn on game popularity. Yeah, very true. And I'm going to give Nick and Kevin some credit here because Greg Bone and I have been very public in saying, yeah, I told you so. Like, okay, we did do that. From the very beginning, we were big Pirates of the Caribbean game fans. Theme, not so much. But we were there from the very beginning saying, guys, I'm telling you, don't believe the trolls. I haven't played this game. This game is special. But I want to give Nick and Kevin some credit, too, because they were saying that in the podcast. They were in the same boat. They were doing that as well, saying, no, you guys, but it's hard. at that time it's like me listening to me and i sell games so it's hard to listen to me they are sponsored by jersey jacks they're like of course you love it i knew because they're my buddies i knew that they really did think this game was special and they loved it how they bought the damn thing and it's not like they're getting any discounts or we're getting any discounts or anything it was special um but no keith johnson said look quote if people want one he's referring to pirates caribbean ask your distributors he went on to say that he thinks if there was enough interest from distributors submitting to Jersey Jack Pinball, it could absolutely get another run. So it doesn't sound like licensing is an issue here. It's what I've said before. You're going to have to buy a certain amount of parts in bulk for this to make sense. So if you're buying 500 of each part, does it make sense? Can you sell another 500? At 500, I think the answer is no. I don't have a good sense in terms of the count. I thought Jack in an interview, Jack Guarneri, had said right after it went off the line that they had renewed the license for several years. I think I remember that too. And so, yeah, I've never assumed it's a license issue. I've always thought it's either they don't have enough confidence in the demand being there to warrant getting enough parts to do a run or that. The other concern, which I've been less willing to accept, but I get the logic of it, was somehow all of them with all their experience miscalculated the BOM and they'd have to raise the price a lot to do it. Good speculation, too. I mean, I could have seen it if they had ended up adding in a whole bunch of really complex features, but versus the prototype, they stripped things down. So that's why I don't think that's the case. Keith Johnson said that Pirates of the Caribbean version 1.0 is not going to be released until the final wizard mode is complete. He also talked about Joe Katz hating toppers. Hashtag, you're dead to me, Joe. And he hates shaker motors. Keith Johnson does. Call them hackneyed. hashtag you're just wrong welcome back to another rendition of pinball market trends sponsored by the pinball network and presented by the pinball show trending up this week in pinball is stern pinballs jurassic park every damn model elvira house of whores every damn model and deadpool every damn model Listeners, people are itching to get their hands on a new or pre-owned pinball machine. And with all of this pandemic crap going on, stock has been depleted by everyone around the country, likely around the world. In particular, three models by Stern Pinball, Jurassic Park. People want the premium. Hell, they want the LE. You just can't find it. They want the premium. Everybody's out. They'll settle with the pro. Shit, those are out as well. Elvira with all of the new code drops and people realizing how great of a game this is they're looking for the signature edition at this point they just want that game and Deadpool tried and true for the past year this machine is becoming harder and harder to find even on the secondary market I've seen some people now take a new title like Jurassic Park and market up on the secondary market new in box they're jacking up the price past MSRP that is evidence alone of a market trend. Now look for this trend to settle down a little bit over the next six months as Stern fires up the engine of the factory to start these production models again. But until then, you're going to see them stay high, you're going to see them stay elevated, and you're going to have to pony up a little extra money, a little more dinero, if you were wanting one of these for your game room.
    68:56
    Numbers don't lie. Facts are facts. Holding steady this week for the most part is the entire secondary market. From a bird's eye view, looking at the landscape as a whole, things are pretty stable. You're not seeing these sell, sell, sell prices, these clearance prices, slash them, get them out of here, roll them, drag them, flip them. You're not seeing any of that stuff. If I were to speculate as to why, again, I think it's because the manufacturers are shut down. No new pinball machines are leaving. And of all of those being out of stock, people are now going to the secondary market. They're looking for a new pinball machine, but they'll settle for a secondary market one, a pre-owned one. Once they realize that those are pretty much gone as well of the hot titles, then they think, okay, I'll get my whitewater. Ah, fine, I'll finally get my funhouse. I just want a new pinball machine to play. So they're staying pretty stable around the board. Unfortunately, this week, trending down is a mob. Now I went and bought some mods as of late and I noticed a trend and I don't like this one. Flipper toppers. Let's talk a little bit about flipper toppers. Any of you listeners out there are a fan of flipper toppers. What I mean is by the little accessory that you can add on top of the flipper to change the aesthetic or the look of that flipper. And the reason these are trending down is because they no longer, I'm not seeing anybody really produce the style of flipper topper that I like. Flipper toppers can be very hit or miss. And for those of you pinball mod geeks out there like myself that like adding everything to your game, they're hit or miss. Some of these flipper toppers nowadays are hideous.
    70:39
    Training down in particular are just the decals. Mod developers, designers. No, no. We don't want just decals on our flipper toppers. It looks cheap. I don't want that. I want some type of laser etched pinball topper. What the hell ever happened to Laserific making those flipper toppers that were laser etched that you could see through them and see the top of the flipper as well? They were just enough accent to not be overpowering and to not be tacky. They, for the most part, were really nicely done. All I'm seeing now is decals from these mod creators. Or Laserific, what they've done, it looks like, is they're still doing the laser etching, but it's still one piece and it has a background and you're still sticking it on top. No, no, we like that deep cut. I hope you all know what I'm talking about. I've got those deep cut laserific ones on like the Shadow. I've seen the getaway ones that are good. They used to produce them, but here recently I'm not seeing anything like that for Jurassic Park. I'm not seeing anything like that for Elvira or Stranger Things. These are the games that I want to put them on, but I can't. So turning down is the way that the mod community is doing flipper toppers. Go! Ooh, did somebody say topper? Topper talk! training down this week also secondary toppers mod community where are you at i'm ready to throw my money at you take my money now oh take my money and run that's right i'm ready to throw money at you but you're not going to get it you got to work a little bit harder the secondary topper group i'm not that impressed recently maybe stern is blowing these guys away and they've given up They've picked up their RGB acrylic ball and they're taking it home. They no longer want to compete? I don't know. I'm issuing a challenge out to you topper makers. Let's up our game a little bit. Have you not seen We Will Pay the Prices? For an elaborate, beautiful, well-crafted and integrated pinball topper. But I think we're about done with this lack of IP, single plexi, light it with a cheap overseas led strip that usually break and look if it looks good i can compromise some of that quality right but i don't want to look at a bad topper come on people we can be craftier than this topper lovers out there raise your voices and be heard we want nice aftermarket toppers damn it and we will not quit until we get them we probably will quit we'll just Continue buying the Stern ones. Maybe I should get in the topper game. Calling Mrs. Penn. I need some toppers. And no Market Trends segment would be complete without a little sub-segment we call Deals of the Week. Bye, bye, bye.
    73:26
    Bye, bye, bye. Indeed, this week I'm offering up some more Deals of the Week courtesy of Flippin' Out Pinball. Now, if these weren't Deals of the Week, I wouldn't push them on you guys, right? It's bullshit. this whole show is just so you can make a dollar from us. Oh, stop. Look, if it's a deal, you buy it. But I'm going to make it worth your while this week because you guys heard. I just got in the Big Lebowski because I am a complete idiot. I'm dumb. Don't know why I bought it. Well, I do. Now I'm stuck in the predicament of needing to get rid of some games so that I can justify and sleep at night for buying that expensive ass overpriced pinball machine. It is fun. It is beautiful. But, jeez. So this week, I'm going to list a couple of my personal, some of my favorite pinball machines. But they've got to go. One of them is Jersey Jack Pinball's Willy Wonka. Now, this thing, I've got the LE model. I've got damn near every mod on it. I've got the topper with it. Look at the pictures on probably Pinsider Facebook. They're gorgeous. They're beautiful. these things for the most part wonka's list on secondary market le's low nines right stock maybe maybe 9 000 without anything added on it i'm gonna list mine for 9200 again great shape it's got all of the mods on it's got the topper on it it's fantastic i haven't put that many damn games on it but here's what we're going to do for listeners of the pinball show and lovers of pinball market trends, all you've got to do is reach out to me if you're interested in this pinball machine and you get special pricing. That's all you got to do. Instead of $9,200,
    75:06
    did you hear that? I just cut four binges off of it. Just like that. $8,800. Buy, buy, buy. Take it. $8,800. That's saving a crap load of money. The other one that's got to go, go, go is Spooky pinball's Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. Again, a pin that I've been loving. Willy Wonka's one of my favorite games of all time. Period. Dot. I just played that a lot. Alice Cooper, I love this game. It is gorgeous. It is beautiful. It is challenging, which keeps me coming back for more. But, I'm broke now. So, I gotta sell Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle again. I'm a weirdo. I mod everything from the factory. It's got the side art. It's got the plastic protectors. It's got the whole shebang. Speaker lights, interactive, all of that stuff. Plus, you guys seen the straight in the middle video where I installed all of the medicinal mods. Top of the line mods for Alice Cooper. Hell, that's like four or five hundred bucks right there. Those mods are in it. You get mods. Everybody gets a fucking mod. Everybody gets mods in this deal. I'm going to list this thing for $6,400. I think that's fair. But between us, you mention your love. hell get a tattoo and you get a thousand off but the six thousand dollars mention the pinball show and your love for pinball market trends and you can have a slashing them again as an arrow fireworks i don't know what the hell i'm doing at this point but that was your deal of the week and before we end this segment i'm always pitching new ideas to dennis creasel Always pitching them to Ken Cromwell, pitching them to my buddy Greg Bone out there. But this time, I want to pitch something to you. I'm pitching an upcoming segment that we're going to call Listener Trends. In Listener Trends, you're going to submit to me at the pinballnetwork at gmail.com your trends for the week. Now, these don't have to be pinball trends. Maybe they are. Maybe they're not. Trending up, trending down. Holding steady, trending. What the?
    77:16
    Trending, huh? You get to pick it. And if it's good, we will air it. Now, definition of good in this situation is either, hmm, interesting, informational, I like it, polynomial, hmm, or it's entertaining. It's something you've noticed trending up or down in your life. Doesn't even have to be pinball. Trending up this week is catch up. Trending down always is mustard. All time low. Yeah. show us what you got and submit your listener trend today and that ladies and gentlemen was ye olde pinball trends barter barter barter what what they do in medieval times i don't even know dennis where can people find you between now and the next time they can always reach out at collected gamers podcast at gmail.com can they send love letters or ransom notes? I do not do love letter segments. Selfies? I don't look at selfies. Can they text you... No. Text you pictures of themselves? No.
    78:22
    Ugh. All right. You can catch me at the pinballnetwork at gmail.com or... Oh, update. Straight down the middle of Pinball Show, episode 108. Go check it out where we re-review the reviews, part due. we take Dennis's wonderfully crafted excel spreadsheet with formulas so that we can take weighted grading and use that for our review so we took all the old ones that we've reviewed with equal categorization is that the right way to define it yeah that's how I describe it and that was a faulty system so we weighted them based on what Greg and I's uh you know layout is worth more than art or music's not worth as much as a theme or you know and we went back through recalculated them all and now categorically we can kind of compare them all because they're all using the same system so go check that out as well as we have a presence sdtm has a website presence now i think it's flipping out pinball slash sdtm but there you can see visually our chart of reviews. It has a feed for all the YouTube videos. And very, very soon, this is kind of a placeholder until we have an interactive pinball machine reviewing system that you listener, you viewer can submit your own reviews, categorize them, sort them. Do you want to see your reviews and scores weights based on ours? Do you want to compare it to Greg and I's final scores? Do you want to see where uh enjoyability ranks if we were to sort them all by enjoyability do you want to see the entire sdtm community all together now what's the top 10 list it's going to be a lot of fun but it's going to take a little time to get there so in the meantime all you've got to do to submit your own straight down the middle review is simply email us at sdtmpinball at gmail.com so much fun i can't express how much fun this is to do write it on a piece of paper take a picture or send it to us, or type it up in an email. Just give us, based on our categories, weight those things out. Add that percentage up to 100. Make sure it's 100%. Weight them out, and then pick a game. Fun House. Boom. Tell your grades during each category, or getaway, or things that we have reviewed. Indiana Jones, Deadpool. Submit those to us. It'll be a lot of fun. If you're ready to buy a brand new pinball machine, or an escalator, stair climbing, hand truck, a lot of those are going out right now, Dennis. I don't know why, but escalators are selling really well right now. Contact us at FlippinOutPinball at FlippinOutPinball.com or Zach, C-A-C-H, at Flip, the letter N, OutPinball.com. Or call me at 812-457-9711. I think I'm streaming tonight a little Elvira, a new code. Are you going to join in? Probably not. Eh. You're like Ken Cromwell. Yep. And Greg Bone. All my friends. None of my friends support me. Whatever. You know who I support, though? Everybody. I support good ideas. I support you, Dennis. I even support the upcoming Final Round Pinball Podcast, which I hear was a hoot. Fun. It's going to be playing this week, as well as the Off the Record Pinball Podcast. I think we got an entry. Go check out Silver Ball Stories, Episode 3, Pinball Tales from the Crypt. So well done. Love that stuff. Ooh, also a very, very special congratulations to Dave Brennan. Dave Brennan is a streamer over at TurboGrafx7, part of the TPN family of streamers. Congratulations, buddy. He just accepted a position as technical services manager over at American Pinball. You heard Kaz talk about that at the beginning of the show, but we couldn't be happier and more proud of you, Dave. And American Pinball, A-plus hire here. That was a really, really smart choice as this guy is one of the best damn touch-up restoration pinball repair people that I've ever met. And a damn nice taste in collecting and playing pinball machines. Congrats again, Dave. I think TPN is like the farming group that farms out individuals. It was a slam tilt, right? But now it's TPN. So manufacturers, we got all the good ones here. maybe we can uh maybe maybe i can help broker a deal and until next week for dennis creasel i'm zach many always remember to shake it before you bake it and always practice safe pinball this raymond's making me thirsty up so long everybody this is a story about philly joe and bobby sue the air is really i'm at the like end of the hvac system so okay we're gonna kick it down a degree just so i can force the air on so i can know when you you're a fishing ass you're probably at like 75 i was at 75 now i'm at 74 because of your bullshit i know you so freaking well damn it this is me off
    83:37
    Looks like a man's got ale papers on him covering his chest, a psycho eats a geek steak. Att Có