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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 69 - Get that Butyrate out of here!

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 18m·analyzed·Nov 13, 2025
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Ep 69: Tom buys X-Men Pro, Karl DeAngelo's Winchester sells out, designers debate mods and LE pricing.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast celebrates episode 69 with discussion of Tom's recent X-Men Pro purchase, Karl DeAngelo designer debut with Winchester Mystery House (which sold out in under two days), and impressions of Dune. The hosts explore game design philosophy, the impact of 3D mods on aesthetic appeal, and whether manufacturers should include mod accessories standard in Limited Editions.

Key Claims

  • Karl DeAngelo designed Winchester Mystery House almost entirely himself, teaching himself Solidworks with minimal Barrels of Fun team involvement

    high confidence · Joel cited conversation with Travis (Barrels engineer) at Expo confirming Karl's solo design responsibility

  • Winchester Mystery House sold out in less than two days

    high confidence · Tom stated directly; Karl DeAngelo's designer credit was a major driver of sales velocity

  • X-Men Pro code is at version 0.94 and missing key features: Nimrod mode, Senator Kelly, Master mode, Master Mold

    high confidence · Joel confirmed code status and missing features; noted game hasn't hit two-year mark so time remains

  • Karl DeAngelo was the first elite-level tournament player to design a pinball machine in recent years

    high confidence · Travis had asked pre-Expo which elite players design machines; Keith Elwin was only answer at the time; Karl's announcement came days later

  • Winchester Mystery House playfield features unique ball-path design with turntable that dynamically changes shot outcomes

    high confidence · Multiple hosts praised the turntable mechanic and non-repetitive layout; noted it feels fresh compared to overused U-turn/scoop designs

  • X-Men Pro units have broken Rogue gun mode where signals don't move as intended

    high confidence · Tom confirmed Rogue gun signals are frozen; Joel noted this is a code issue still needing work

  • Tom acquired X-Men Pro for under $5,000

    high confidence · Joel explicitly stated the price point; Tom did not deny it

  • Barrels of Fun took the debut Winchester Mystery House unit (number one) back to their facility post-Expo for wear-and-tear analysis

    high confidence · Joel explained they wanted to identify loose/tight/worn components after hundreds of plays to inform future production

Notable Quotes

  • “Mom sounds like a smart guy trying to sound dumb. Travis sounds like a dumb guy trying to sound smart. And Joel sounds like he's just happy to be included in the conversation.”

    Purple Cow Milk (YouTube commenter) @ ~14:30 — Community observation that perfectly captures the dynamic of the three hosts; they want to use it for merch

  • “I think Barrels of Fun now has their Keith Elwin. Like, I think the way that Karl's brain works – he designed that entire game.”

    Joel @ ~22:15 — Positions Karl DeAngelo as a designer equal to Keith Elwin in capability and strategic importance to Barrels

  • “Karl taught himself Solidworks. Karl was supplying all this. We would help him with tooling or help him with these little things. But like, that is almost entirely Karl's baby.”

    Travis (citing Barrels engineer Travis) @ ~20:45 — Confirms extent of Karl's solo design work; emphasizes his self-taught technical capability

  • “It's not the license that sold me. It's what I'm seeing in the game, the layout, the code, everything.”

    Joel @ ~35:20 — Joel excited about Winchester despite not caring about Winchester Mystery House IP; validates design over theme

  • “In the pinball industry, brand is a powerful thing, a very powerful thing, especially if you have less units being produced.”

    Travis @ ~18:00 — Explains why Karl's personal brand drove Winchester sales velocity

  • “I'm still holding out on the code. I'm still holding out on the code and really hoping that it... they got time. They got time.”

    Joel @ ~10:30 — Shows patience with X-Men code development; notes game hasn't hit two-year vault point yet

  • “It's refreshing to see a fun layout done. It's refreshing to see different things being done, especially like that turntable, which changes your shot.”

    Joel @ ~32:15 — Articulates what makes Winchester stand out mechanically

Entities

TompersonJoelpersonTravispersonKarl DeAngelopersonKeith ElwinpersonDavid Van EspersonTravis (Barrels engineer)person

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Karl DeAngelo officially announced as designer of Winchester Mystery House; this was leaked three days after Travis asked on-air about elite players designing machines

    high · Travis knew about Karl's role pre-announcement; Joel confirmed Karl designed game almost entirely solo using self-taught Solidworks

  • ?

    product_launch: Winchester Mystery House sold out in under two days; run of approximately 500 units

    high · Tom confirmed purchase immediately after announcement; Joel noted rapid sellout driven by Karl's brand and game quality

  • ?

    code_update: X-Men Pro at version 0.94 with missing major features: Nimrod mode, Senator Kelly, Master mode, Master Mold; Rogue gun mode broken

    high · Joel stated version number and missing features; Tom confirmed Rogue gun signals don't move; hosts optimistic code will continue development

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Elite-level tournament player Karl DeAngelo designed Winchester, breaking pattern where only casual/mid-level designers create games; Travis observed Keith Elwin was only elite player previously designing

    high · Travis's pre-Expo question about elite players designing; hosts discussed how Karl's tournament perspective influences game balance

  • ?

    design_innovation: Winchester Mystery House features dynamic turntable that changes upper flipper shot outcomes; avoids overused U-turn/scoop shots with novel layout

    high · Multiple hosts praised turntable mechanic; Joel noted refreshing departure from repetitive shot patterns; Travis described how ramp placement changed ball dynamics

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.415

0:00
We're here. We're here. This is a big episode. Big episode, guys. I don't know if you noticed the title. It is episode 69. Nice. That's all I needed.
0:40
I don't know. It's better than six seconds. This is the last episode of Triple Drain then. We all agreed four years ago. 69. Go out on top. 69 episodes. Yep. Well, or bottom. It depends. It depends which side of the equation you're on. I don't know. It's the definition of teamwork, right? I mean, that's really what we're... No.
0:58
We're crushing it. We're doing it. Tom's like, I do it from the side. I don't know what you guys are talking about.
1:03
There's three of us. I'll just watch. Oh, my goodness. What's this thing? Are you in for a joke? Oh, my.
1:12
Hey, I'm happy to be a part of this team. That's what I'm talking about. This podcast. His beard would be way too scruffy. No. Oh, Lord. Sorry. Oh, my goodness. I regret it. I regret going down and even mentioning it. But anyway, let's just lead into the topic that I know everybody wants to talk about, and that is Tom has made an amazing decision. He's made an amazing decision that all of his close friends support him in, and that is Tom bought a new pinball machine. Tom, please tell the world what your new pinball machine and why it was an incredible decision. I got an X-Men, Uncanny X-Men Pro. That a boy. Thank you. Yep. Thank you, everybody. Travis, you support that decision, right? Oh, yeah. I'll just buy all the new and boxed pinball machines you can. Well, shit. Wait, you bought a new and boxed. Damn, never mind. Okay. Never mind. For people that don't know, I got heckled by multiple people when I bought my X-Men LE. Because they're like, how in the world did you not buy a Jaws or a Kong or a this or a that? Because you were talking about those games so much. Then out of nowhere, you're like, oh, well, instead of Jaws, I'm going to get an X-Men. Yeah. You're like, I think the code is going to catch up at some point. It's one thing to be heckled by you, Travis. But to have industry professionals be like, all right, you bought an X-Men. I was like, ugh, it's just kind of a shot to the heart, you know. And here's the deal. I don't regret it. No shame. I like my X-Men. The heart wants what the heart wants. And what I love is the fact that Tom's heart wanted an X-Men Pro.

“If I'm buying an LE and you're telling me to put mods in it, I would have a lot of reservations about that.”

Joel @ ~58:00 — Expresses concern about manufacturer-supplied mods not being included in LE pricing

John Papadiukperson
Zachperson
Stern Pinballcompany
Barrels of Funcompany
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Spooky Pinballcompany
X-Men (Uncanny X-Men Pro)game
Winchester Mystery Housegame
Dunegame
Godzillagame
King Konggame
Lord of the Rings (LOTR)game
Evil Deadgame
Labyrinthgame
Beetlejuicegame
Stumblor Pinballcompany
Lumberjack Johnny Pinballperson
Pinsideorganization
  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Barrels of Fun took demo unit (Winchester #1) back post-Expo for wear analysis after hundreds of plays; systematic approach to identify issues for future production

    high · Joel explained they wanted to learn what's loose/tight/worn for future games; shows production refinement commitment

  • ?

    collector_signal: Winchester Mystery House sub-500 unit run and Karl DeAngelo's personal brand drove immediate sellout; brand + scarcity + quality = rapid FOMO-driven sales

    high · Travis stated brand is powerful for limited runs; Tom bought partly for Karl's involvement; multiple hosts noted quick sellout

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Winchester features unconventional playfield layout with offset right-hand shots and close left-hand proximity; requires shot planning unlike typical ramp-centric games

    high · Travis noted layout felt challenging but engaging; hosts praised unique shot placement and ball-path visibility compared to sculpt-heavy games

  • ?

    product_strategy: Industry discussion emerging about whether manufacturers should include 3D sculpt mods in LE pricing or sell separately; Dune model includes sculpts, Stern varies by title

    medium · Hosts debated whether sculpt kits should be standard in LE vs Pro/Premium; noted Dune's 'all-in' model sells sling sculpts post-launch; tension around LE value proposition

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: 3D sculpting mods have become mainstream aesthetic standard; hosts observe most new machines now receive mods, suggesting shift from exception to expectation

    high · Joel noted heavily modded collections now look tasteful vs cluttered; Travis observed Stern lineup with mods at delivery; hosts wonder if this becomes industry standard

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts debate aesthetic trade-off: heavily sculpted playfields (LOTR) create immersion but block ball visibility; Winchester balances sculpts with clear sight lines and kinetic satisfaction

    high · Joel compared Winchester's visible turntable changes to LOTR's blocked diverter paths; Travis praised Winchester's right-side offset creating more dynamic ball control

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Karl DeAngelo transitioned from IT professional/tournament player to game designer; represents new talent pipeline from competitive community

    high · Joel noted Karl is IT professional at school, not mechanical/electrical engineer; self-taught Solidworks demonstrates technical commitment

    • 3:09
    That's true. How's that X-Men Pro treating you? Actually really good. It shoots really well. Yeah. The price on it was fantastic.
    3:21
    I have no complaints. Yeah, X-Men Pro for under $5,000, that's pretty. Edit that out. Oh, yeah. You're going to sell it? No. No, I'm just kidding. You can leave it in. I don't care. My feelings aren't hurt.
    3:38
    I'm just effing with you guys. You can stay whatever price. I don't care. Tom, do you care about Travis's feelings? No. I mean, that. No, I think that's. Yeah, okay. Okay, and neither does what's-his-name. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. We forgot about this. What's the guy's name on our YouTube comments? I usually don't pay attention to it. Oh, we have the best YouTube comment ever. Yeah, somebody find it. I was, like, laughing my ass off. It was perfect. Okay, I got to find that. So, Tom, when you bought X-Men, one of the first things I ask is, how's the plunge? And your plunge is?
    4:13
    Fantastic. Perfect. And I don't, did you mess with it at all? Did you do anything or are you just not lucky? It was already messed with. All right. Tom, in six words or more, how much are you enjoying X-Men?
    4:28
    A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. All right. Can you tell us why? Can you tell us what is it about X-Men that you're enjoying? In seven words or more, can you tell us why? no I wanted to explore the code more which needs some work still one of the modes is foobar yep called foobar or just is foobar no it's broken it's the rogue gun right yeah what's broken about it doesn't the signals are supposed to move You still like, yeah, the sun goes east. They don't move at all. They're just like. They just chill out. They just get tired. Listen right here.
    5:17
    I love how Joel's looking down. He didn't see that. That's awesome. Sorry, I'm looking for that amazing YouTube comment. It's because it's worth it. It's almost like we should have had a pre-production meeting.
    5:28
    Oh, I should have been. That's what I'm going to be doing. It's fine. Here. Homie's probably watching us again. Just like copy paste your comment down on episode 69. Yeah, we'll pin it. It was freaking hilarious. So I'm personally enjoying X-Men. I have no regrets. And the reality is I just don't know what to do. I got the plunge dialed in. Shout out to the Raiden mod that goes in the back. And then I put the stern fixed in. I took it out. It shoots better without it. So I got my plunge where it needs to be. I put in the official stern ball hop fix for the left flipper. and oh this is a great modification a fantastic I did do this which is which is something I swapped out the the bushings with precision flipper bushings just the metal bushings I still have normal flippers but I swapped out the bushings and that gave me now enough power that I can cradle the left flipper and I can hit the midtown shot and now that I've done those things. It shoots like, I love the way it shoots. The kinetic satisfaction of that game is off the charts. I love the way it shoots. And I'm still holding out on the code. I'm still holding out on the code and really hoping that it... I found the comment.
    6:47
    Oh, please. Oh, this is fantastic. Please read it out loud. I should say who it's from. Let's give him credit. Purple Cow Milk. Mom sounds like a smart guy trying to sound dumb. Travis sounds like a dumb guy trying to sound smart. And Joel sounds like he's just happy to be included in the conversation. Really interesting vibe.
    7:15
    It's incredible. I mean, yeah, I want to put that on a poster. It's such a good moment. I'm not offended in any way. And I hope neither of you are because I want to put it on merch. That's what I want to do. Whatever. If we ever, whether Twippies or something like that, if they're like, hey, can you give us a bio? Can you give us a little blurb of what your podcast is? I think I'm just going to copy-paste that. Yeah, seriously. That catches it perfectly.
    7:42
    Four years, like, wrapped up right there. 69 episodes. Yeah, well done. Okay, well, X-Men, we're still in a weird spot with X-Men. We're still waiting on accessories. We're still waiting on that code. I mean, there's a lot left that needs to be added in that game. No Nimrod mode, no Senator Kelly, no Master mode, Master Mold.
    8:05
    Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm hopefully optimistic. It's only at .94, so. They got time. That's what I'm going to keep telling myself. They got time. They got time, yeah. Okay, so now that we got that out of the way. It's not at the two-year mark. It hasn't been vaulted yet. They got time. Let's talk about, okay, I have to give Travis props. And what I'm giving him props for was, and this is what's frustrating, is because he knew it. He knew it the whole time he was playing dumb, right?
    8:37
    Which was, we were talking pre-Expo, and we were talking about just overall game design. And Travis asked the question, what elite-level players are currently designing pinball machines? And we sat there, and the answer at the time was Keith Elwin. Keith Elwin was really the only one that we could say, what elite level player is designing pinball machines? Because the question was, you know, there are some people that think some of these pinball designers are only designing games for tournament players or they don't have the right audience in mind. And Travis pointed out that when it comes to tournament games, the ones they have to tweak the most are Keith Elwin games. So that seems kind of contradictory, right, that the tournament level guy is actually making the ones that are kind of worse for tournaments, but actually get played all the time for tournaments. Well, he's saying all this. And like three days later, it's announced that Carl D'Angelo, an elite level player, designed Winchester Mystery House. And you knew about it. You knew about it the whole time. I have no comment on those accusations. No comment. Well, hey, Carl, I would consider Carl a friend. I know he's a personal friend for both of you guys as well. I mean, huge shout out to Carl for, one, doing this. I mean, what a, I don't know, like I'm proud of the guy for like, for putting his neck out there and committing, like trying to add to the pinball hobby beside, you know, beyond what he already does between his amazing tournament streams and his YouTube streams or Twitch streams. Like to actually build and be a part of building machine, huge props. But on top of all that, it looks like he designed an amazing game. I mean, it sold out in what, less than two days? Tom Graff. you have one coming your way, don't you? C. That means yes, Joe. It's Spanish. So tell me, Tom, what made you pull the trigger? Was it after seeing the game or just you want to support Carl? Well, it was a combination of both. But, I mean, I saw the game. I'm like, oh, this is really cool. And then, like, designed by Carl D'Angelo. It's like, oh, well, then I'm getting it. So if it would have just been Barrels of Fun, Winchester Mystery House, Carl's name was not mentioned at all. So you assume it was the same, you know, David Van Ness or Travis. I could have possibly still bought it, but I think Carl was a big influence, definitely. I agree. I 100% agree. And we were all at Expo. I had some awesome conversation with David Van Ness. Not to put any pressure on you, Carl. No. Awesome conversations with David Van Ness and the Barrels of Fun team. And I, like, honestly, I think they got their – I think Barrels of Fun now has their Keith Elwin. Like, I think the way that Carl D'Angelo's brain works – I mean, he designed that entire game. There were – I was talking to Travis, who works – not this Travis, the smart Travis, Travis that works at Barrels of Fun. Not the dumb one, not the dumb one. Yeah. Good Travis. He's an engineer. And, like, I asked him, I was like, how involved was the Barrels team in this design? Because Carl D'Angelo is not a mechanical engineer. He's not an electrical engineer. He's, like, an IT professional at a school. Like, how much involvement did you get in this physical? And he's like, we did very little. Like, Carl taught himself solid works. Carl was supplying all this. We, you know, would help him with tooling or help him with these little things. But, like, that is almost entirely Carl's baby. And that's unbelievable to have that level of design right out the gate. But, Travis, I think you had some inside baseball here or saw a little of this. I mean, what's your view on all this with Carl taking on this game? Well, so, okay, to be crystal clear, just to get it out there, Carl was never the one that told me. Like, we talked to Carl all the time. And he literally gave no clue to this at all. So we'll just get that one out of the way. But no, so the game itself, like, as soon as I saw it, like, I knew it was going to be an absolute banger. And the funny part is, is that the actual theme, I know the theme to it immediately, just because Monica's made me watch the movie and there's like a TV show or something about that. So I was familiar with that. And to me, it's like as soon as I saw it and I realized everything that was involved in it, then I knew immediately, like, I just figured this sucker's going to sell out instantly. And the reason being is because not only that it looks cool, but who's behind it. And I think in the pinball industry, brand is a powerful thing, a very powerful thing, especially if you have less units being produced. I mean, obviously, it's like, what, 500 something odd, something like that. So, I mean, you mix those two things together, you're cooking with gas at that point. point, right? It's going to be a dynamite thing happening. But overall, the game itself, it played fun. And what I personally enjoyed about it, I probably played it three or four times at Expo. And what I enjoyed about it is I actually, I found it challenging to play.
    13:49
    And not meaning like all the shots were bricking or anything like that. I'm just meaning it was a unique layout in which there was only a couple of shots that reminded me of other shots. Then there was other shots that were just in places that didn't necessarily feel familiar as much, right? So, for example, the upper flipper, whenever the diverter that's up top, whenever it turned and you're able to hit it through, I can't remember if it's a spinner or just like a backwards, almost U-turn type shot back down to a flipper. That felt pretty like a great shot. And the reason for that is I personally feel like the U-turn shot, especially the scoop in the middle, is just overused so much. right now on pinball, like, past 10, 15 years or so, that felt like a great new take. It's something similar but familiar. Can you give me that shot in another game? Well, like, it's in, like, Rick and Morty, like, something like that, where the locks come out. Oh, it's like a horseshoe. Yeah, just like a quick, yeah, I call it U-turn, but, yeah, just a quick horseshoe shot. So, I mean, and there's different versions of it, of course. You know, like, Mandalorian, they have a version of that. I mean, there's different mini versions of it. So it's kind of like that's what pinball design essentially becomes. It's like all the Scooby-Doo. Yeah, yeah. Just those three shots, yeah. Yeah, and it's been done a lot. So to me, that felt like that was a good take on that type of shot. But, yeah, I mean, overall, it felt like it was challenging. And it's rare that there's a game that feels that challenging, but it just felt like you wanted to keep coming back for more, to try something new. Yeah, yeah. And the thing I could figure out, too, with the ramps is it just felt like the ramps were, I mean, and there's been ramps in those spots. Like, don't get me wrong. There's nothing innovative. Like, oh, so you're putting a ramp in a brand-new spot. But it's just the fact of the location where they were at, that kind of changed the dynamics a little bit more considering how the middle kind of was, right? Because everything's kind of offset to the right-hand side, whereas the left-hand side, there's more shots close to you in proximity. So you had to kind of plan some things out. And I found that interesting. I wasn't sure exactly how it would play, all things considered, because it felt like the flippers were purposefully sagged down a little bit. So that kind of changed the dynamic a little bit also in terms of ball control and your flippers or, you know, getting a live catch or something like that. But, you know, overall, I'm excited to see how it's going to play. I didn't really know the code at all or the rules. And honestly, I didn't pay attention to the rules at all. I just act like it was a whitewood. I just wanted to flip shots and just see how it played. But it was fun. I enjoyed it. I completely agree. It's refreshing not to see a fan layout done. It's refreshing to see different things being done,
    16:37
    especially like that turntable, which changes your shot. I mean, that's freaking fantastic. I completely agree. Doing a lot with an area in which you only have so much real estate. Like we talked about this before, right? There's only so much real estate underneath that glass on that play field. So when you can figure out how to manipulate the ball and actually show different paths that way, I mean, to me, that is fun. And it's kind of interesting because I feel like to an extent, obviously, it's not the same, but I feel like to an extent, Harry Potter kind of does that as well. But it's just blocked off so much by so many sculpts on top. It's just kind of hard to see ball paths, right? I mean, you have the big diverter, right, with the stairs. And you can kind of track it, but at the same time, it's kind of blocked off by so much. Whereas with Carl's game, with that, it's like you can tell where the ball is going to go generally. And that kind of makes it a little bit more, I guess, kinetically satisfying, like you were saying, Tom, just because you can see it all the way through and you can see the changes rapidly happening. So for me, I like the idea of that. But that being said, I did play Harry Potter a ton, too, because that game is fantastic as well. So don't let anybody think I'm just, like, crapping on Harry Potter. No, no, I didn't think that.
    18:00
    I would say what stood out to me, so I've only, I literally played one game of Winchester at Expo because the line was really long, and I knew I should be streaming it here within the next few weeks. My initial thought was I was going to stream it, like, a week or two after Expo, but they took the game. They took Zach's game. He has number one. And they took it all the way back to Barrels of Fun and basically went through the whole game because they wanted to see, you know, this game got literally hundreds and hundreds of plays. What's loose? What's tight? What's worn? What's this? You know, how do we learn from this? So that's really cool that they did that to know, you know, where we need to do X, Y, or Z for the future games. So hopefully I'll get it soon. But I only played one game on it, and I did the same thing Travis did. I really wasn't focused on the code at all. It was just treating this as a whitewood. Let me find all the shots. And to play an entire game and know I didn't hit every shot, and it's not because it's for the designer and bricking and everything. It's just there's that much packed into the game. And the way that that turntable will change, you know, your upper loop shot, your upper flipper shot could go one way with the turntable or it could go another way with the turntable or all of a sudden, boom, it fed the ball. And there's actually like kind of a left orbit that goes all the way down the left side of the game. And next thing I know, my lower flipper just got fed with a shot from the upper flipper. Like, what just happened? You know, it's just that type of stuff is so exciting to me that if you have that type of layout that's that dynamic and that can adjust or, you know, divert itself to make so many different ball paths, you know they can make really creative modes with that, and you're going to have really creative and unique moments in that game. And I have full confidence that Carl D'Angelo and the way that his brain works, because he's taken full ownership of the code and the structure of this game, the code design, that he's going to really give it his all with unique modes, and the modes are based on the different rooms and stuff. And I am pumped. This is one of those games that I am so excited to stream and play, and I'm just so excited that it's out there, which says a lot for, you know, a boutique, a smaller company with a run of only 500. Like, for me to be this excited about a license for me that I don't care about, I've never heard of. Like, I am pumped to play this game.
    20:16
    And that says a lot, because it's not the license that sold me. It's what I'm seeing in the game, the layout, the code, everything. So really excited for Winchester Mystery House and what's coming with that. And I know there's a lot more to come.
    20:31
    Yeah, Dune. Do either of you guys, were you able to play Dune at Expo? Do you have any new or has your view on that game changed at all with the chance to play it more? I played it once at Expo, but I also, Lumberjack Johnny's just got theirs. So I've put some plays on it. I think it's fantastic. I've actually been debating on getting one now. Nice. Yeah, it's a fun game once you kind of understand what's going on. So what's standing out to you? Like what you say is fun. Is it layout rules?
    21:08
    Shots, layout rules, everything. I mean, it's just, like I said, it's just a different feeling, you know, like where you want to explore the game and it's not so much just repeating shots and things like that. Sure. What about you, Travis? Have you played, did you play Dune anymore? I mean, I've played enough. It's just like, I love the atmosphere of it. So, I mean, we talked about this before. Dune itself, in terms of the theme, I'm not a huge fan of it. I've watched the films, like, once, I think. And, you know, I think as long, if you're a Dune fan, I think you'll love the game itself. But the atmosphere that they can create with their house system, like, to me, that's a unique thing. The lighting, horizontal, aerial lighting, is that what it is? Yep. And I think that's, like, how it goes from day to night. I think that's pretty cool. And that just, that adds theme immersion to me. I think that's kind of what they've got. Yeah, the sandworm part's cool, but that's just, for me as a player, just when the lights change like that, and you can kind of, you almost feel like something is, it's not just, I guess, a massive light show just blinding you or anything like that, right? It's something that's kind of unique. And it just, I don't know. That's the best way I can describe it. It just gives you a different feeling when you're playing, when it has those changes that come with it. You know, whatever the game states that. When it initially came out, I mean, the first thing that I was really drawn to was the actual dune sculptures on the play field, like over those lamps and stuff. I mean, it reminded me of Whitewater. It's just kind of immersive and cosmetically nice, you know. Yep, the 3D sculpts. And quick side comment. I know Tom just bought the fourth Stumbler mod, the fourth building. And it's amazing how, like, I have all of them in my Godzilla. And Godzilla is an amazing game. We all agree upon that. And Godzilla, in terms of booty right or, like, flat plastics, you know, the back panel is already kind of 3D. There's 3D buildings and whatnot. Like, I definitely never felt like a Godzilla had a ton of flat plastic. But it's amazing when you start adding in more 3D mods how just that it just takes a game to a whole other level. It really makes a game stand out. Yeah, to piggyback off that. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And to piggyback off that, so we did a delivery to a house just last week, and he has a full Stern lineup, right? But every game he has decided to deck out. And when I say deck out, I mean these are like what you would think it would look like. Heavily modded? Heavily modded, but it's tasteful. It's tasteful, right? Sure, sure. I was looking at this thinking, okay, it might be overboard, but the more I looked at it, it's almost as if, because you couldn't see flat plastics hardly at all, and there was stuff that was, whether it was 3D sculpt or however he did it, it almost felt like the play field itself was just coming alive. Like, Godzilla had the right mods on it that just made sense for what the situation was. His King Kong had the same thing where it had this jungle theme with palm trees up and different trees in certain areas. I'm just like, okay, it kind of feels like, you know, you're actually getting in that world. And I can feel myself starting to go that direction. I know in the past when I've seen stuff like that that wasn't done nearly as well, I just kind of, I don't know, it almost felt like, like, I even tested it out one time on one of my games just to see, like, what all the hoopla was. And it freaking looked like a third grade project. Like, it was just a total failure. And I'm like, what am I even doing right now? But there are certain... Mine says, like, fifth grade project at least. Oh, yeah. But what I'm saying is now, obviously, like, this day and age in 2025, I think just the mods that have come out now, it's like everybody's game has stepped up. And it's almost people seeing how Barrels is doing things, how Spooky's doing things. They see some of the stuff that Stern's putting out, and they see some of the stuff that Barrels... Like, anybody that's in the game right now putting stuff out, that they're kind of taking those ideas and just really running with it. And it's, yeah, I get it, though. There's no license restrictions, so they can pretty much do what they want at will with it. So there is some of that. But it is interesting to see a Stern pinball machine kind of go that direction, and it totally changes just what it is. Like, I saw Jaws like that. I saw, was it Godzilla like that? I saw Rush like that. And it just, yeah, it was interesting. So for me, in my head, I'm just kind of like, all right, what's going to happen to the landscape if Stern ever decides that we're going to start kind of going that direction a little bit, but still keep their same identity? And so for me, I'm just curious to see the evolution of pinball in general with that. Because it seems like everybody else is doing it, right? And they all have been, I mean, obviously they're not having success to the tens of thousands unless you're counting like, you know, Harry Potter obviously sold thousands. But, you know, I'm curious to see at scale if this is going to be like the industry changing thing or is this going to be like the 3D TV to where it's cool for a couple of years? You got it. Like Harry Potter felt loaded when I got the game. I remember looking at it. I was like, this game feels loaded. Would there be a few areas that I could see a mod? But there are some games where the moment you get it, you look at it and you're like, all right, a modder's going to replace that. A modder's going to replace that. And I understand, like, they've got to sell these games and they've got to make money. But when you hear, like, oh, the game's loaded, like, Evil Dead. Evil Dead has a ton of cool mechs, but it also has a ton of good sculpts. Like, obviously, Dune, it's, I don't, there's very few flat plastics. And the flat plastics that are in the game, the slingshots or the in-lane, out-lane, you can buy molded sculpts from Barrels of Fun to replace them.
    27:15
    And Labyrinth was a bunch of sculpts. I know Winchester shows a whole bunch of sculpts. I would assume Beetlejuice is going to have a ton of sculpts. Like, they know, spend the money, and immediately, it just changes the perception of the game. of like, oh, these people are, oh, I just heard a quack. Somebody's updating.
    27:36
    My Godzilla just updated. Your Godzilla knows X-Men's in, so it's like, yeah, I got to do this. Okay, so I got a question for you two. Okay. Listeners, please keep your pitchforks down. I'm not trying to give Stern any ideas or anything like that. Just asking these two bozos in front of me what they think about this. Because you just mentioned what barrels does. Okay. Right? With their plastic slings, right? And then they have. So how would you guys react if any of these manufacturers tried to do that scale to where they had their models that they put out? But obviously, because they have their bomb built in, that's what the game is. But then they decide to have their own mods as accessories afterwards that you could put actually inside the game.
    28:25
    How would we feel about that? In my opinion, because I've wondered this, and I honestly don't know how I would feel about that. If I'm buying pros, I'd say yes, absolutely. If I'm buying an LE and you're telling me to put mods in it, I would have a lot of reservations about that. See, that's what I'm curious about. I feel like the limited editions should have the mods already in it. Well, the perfect example there is an LE, a Stern LE, has everything you need in the game except for the top. Right? Well, Shooter Rod. Shooter Rod, right? On some. Right. You used to have the Shooter. Yeah. Jaws does. Jaws had it. Well, it has both, actually. Came with both. But really, it's like, as an X-Men LE owner, I'm just trying to be cool like Tom. The only thing I care about, the only thing left for me to buy for that game is the topper. So I know there are people upset. If I'm going to spend that money for an LE, why should I get the topper? I do feel that toppers, though, are not everybody wants a topper. So if all of a sudden that was included in the LE, if the LE was now $1,500 more, but every LE came with a topper, you know there would be people that would complain that I don't want it. But to have that purchase, like something you could purchase, I think it's, I would, for the pro or premium buyers, as you guys know, there's plenty of, you guys know plenty of pro buyers that do not care about the aesthetic part of the pinball machine at all. They just want the game. They just want the game and they want to play it. So that's a way that perceptually they're saving money.
    30:09
    I guess the best way to ask this question then would be to Tom since he buys LEs here and there. I want one or two of them. Here and there. But how would you feel if you were buying an LE and then there was still nothing for the outside, no powder coating offered outside of that or anything like that? Like you still have everything. And the only thing offered as like an upgraded modification for pro and premium people are any type of sculpt that could have been on the LE to a point. Like maybe say like 75% of it or something like that. honestly, I'd be fine with it. Well, I mean, that is Dune. Like, Dune is their one model. They call it a limited edition. They advertise it as all included. You know, like, that's their hashtag, like, all in or something. It was showing that we supply it all. But then afterwards, they sell a sling plastic sculpt kit. So I don't know. Well, I mean, I read the Dune forums on Pinside. I haven't been seeing people upset. Right. Like, why was this not included? I don't know. To be fair, though, that's a swing plastic. Like, if we're talking, like, what if, like, the spider on Kong looked a little bit different. You know what I mean? Or something like that. Like, that's what I'm getting at. There's something a little bit bigger on the play field, a little bit more noticeable. Or maybe you're enhancing the Godzilla building, kind of like what Stumbler does. I've always wondered.
    31:44
    Cosmetics, I think you're fine. If it's game-changing, like obviously there are people that bought Cactus Canyon Limited Edition and then are upset that they years later have to buy the upgraded expansion. Yeah, I don't think you can go game-changing. I think I'm looking like strictly cosmetics that brings people more into the world that if somebody wants to deck out their game and add on more to it, especially if they don't want to upgrade and get the mirrored back glass, get the powder coat, Get the Seth and Gary Stern signed certificate of authenticity. You know, if they don't want those things, totally cool. But I've just always wondered if there's room for something like that. Just because I see where pinball is starting to evolve in terms of how people are approaching some of these games, in terms of what they look like, what's on them, what's under the glass for it. I'm all for the problem with, okay, the reason Stumbler mods are amazing is because Davey, the guy that makes Stumbler mods, is brilliant, and he found a really good way to kind of tap into the system and made his mods interact with the game, like so they feel stock. They don't feel like an add-on. You know, the light shows interact with gameplay, and he figured that out because he's really smart. The reason I like buying Stern toppers is because the toppers react to the gameplay. They they so if Stern started releasing mods for their games, like you're saying, cosmetic additions.
    33:13
    If they're if they interact with the game, I I mean, I would love I just I will obviously I want the games to be better and better. But am I going to sit here and be upset about why wasn't it not included? I don't know. I I'm all for like expression lights, right? You can buy expression lights for a premium. They're not included. So some people that can get them. It's a tough thing because, I mean, I could see the community kind of coming out with backlash about it.
    33:43
    I told them to keep their pitchforks down, though, Tom. I told them to keep their pitchforks down. But, yeah, I mean, I guess for me, like, the limited edition should always, like, have everything. Yes. Like, you shouldn't have to, you know, buy more things into it, I guess, under the glass. Yeah, I hear Che. And that's kind of the questions I was asking because I think we see this to certain degrees already. So, for instance, you look at Spooky Games, right? You have the base model and you have to pay extra for, what is it called, the butter cabinet. Yeah, that's extra. Obviously, with Stern, toppers are not included necessarily. so you have to pay extra for that if you want to get something to that extent so it the expression lights right it not with everything you have to pay extra for that to be included So I feel like to a certain extent that we kind of seeing this gradually happen more and more and I'm just curious how far that envelope can get pushed until people are like, no, no, no, you can't. That's too far. You can't go that far. I think if it's all included in LEs, people are going to buy more LEs. I just, like, it is nice having, not having to think about all the stuff I got to add to my game. You know, like, X-Men already has it all. It already has everything. I don't have to worry about grabbing Art Blades, Expression Lighting. So are you saying have you not added anything to your X-Men so far? Okay, well, I added the Raiden mods. Because you did? Because you did say. I added the Raiden mods. Yeah, and then you added, what? Well, I have not added anything. I added Tom. We got a button for this Let's relate it to Star Wars So you know I bought a Pearl Yes Stern saved me $600 by not allowing the expression lights to go into it.
    35:59
    Okay. And the art blade expression, the interior expression lights. Let's say they were like, hey Tom, you could buy the Darth Vader head, the Stormtrooper head, the light up Jabba with the ball, and the TIE fighter. I think those are like the four toys on there that aren't included in the pro. Sure.
    36:28
    I mean, I guess I might consider that, but I don't know if, you know, again, as an LE owner, I might be like, hey, you know, he bought the pro. Why are you allowing him to mod out his game with the same effects? Now, maybe they would allow or maybe they would do different things as add-ons, but I don't know. I just think there's a slippery slope. You know, with barrels, you have one game. Everybody has the same game.
    37:08
    I think it's a little different that way. Do you follow what I'm saying? I do. Yeah. I love what you're saying. I'm just respecting the Tom Talks until Joel hits the button again. I think, yeah. Hit the damn. You're a smart man.
    37:26
    Oh, there we go. Okay, yeah. Good night, everybody. Tom is ready. I got a number. Wait, Tom. I noticed something here. So you were mentioning Stern saved you $600. So you're saying if you would have had the option for the Expression Lights on your Star Wars Pro. I would have definitely bought them. I mean, there wouldn't have been a question. But, Jen, what was the main reason you bought the Pro over the Premium? What was it that you saw in the Premium that you're like, ah, it's not worth it? Because they saved $6,000, Joel. $6,000? Well, yeah. A Pro is $7,000 and an LE is $13,000. You think Tom's buying a premium, Joel? He doesn't go premium. You think Tom's buying a premium, Joel? I was talking premium because premium is like that, what is it, $2,500 upgrade. Tom doesn't even know the word premium, Joel. It's LE. LE, limited edition. But that's where, okay, it's easy. The math between a premium and an LE because they're essentially the same game, But it's like, okay, Art Blades, if you bought those yourself, that's $100. If you did your powder coating yourself, that may be $200 or $300. But then do you want to factor in having to buy them? Do you really? Are you going to match this up? You're going to give me an instruction. The HD glass, the powder coating. If you're going to buy all the Alley. You might as well buy the Alley unless you don't want them. But that mirrored back glass. The mirrored back glass is the one thing you can't really buy. Well, the Artblades are technically unique to an LE as well. But it's like that is the main thing.
    39:12
    So that was the math I was doing in my head when I bought my X-Men LE used. I'm just like, well, shoot, if I get a premium and I start adding expression, this and this and this, there I am. I'm already at that price. I can't believe you guys do math while buying pinball machines. I just told Monica, hey, I want to get this machine. The machine that says yes or no, you know? That's nice of her. No, yeah, what I'm saying is as a pro owner, I, you know, I can't buy the expression lights. But if you could, you would. If I could, I probably would, yeah. Yeah. Okay. On Spike 3, don't they pretty much have those lights on everything now, or am I? No. I don't know for sure if, like, a pro Spike 3 moving forward would have them. I think it's clear. I would assume they could, but the cabinet. Sorry, Joel. Okay. That's what I'm saying. We've got to be clear here. Okay. Oh, God.
    40:11
    There's two. We've just got to be clear. The expression lights in Star Wars are almost identical to, inside the cabinet, are almost identical to the expression lights in a Spike 2 game. So that's, but what I'm seeing and walking down, which we're going to get to, those expression lights look totally different. And being that we've only seen one Spike 3 with that type of expression lights, I'm curious if in that expression light, they've already advertised that that expression light you can add to the premium. There's one problem with those lights, though, on the Washington. Go ahead and tell us about that. Oh, no, I know what you're going to say, Tom. Tell us about those bullets, Tom. Yeah, the bullets go one way, the lights go the other. Yes, yes, but, yes, you are correct. But I'm saying the actual expression lights in that game look totally different than the expression lights in all of Stern's previous releases. So I'm curious to see moving forward if the cabinet speaker lights will be available for all models of Stern pinball machines from here on out. I don't know that answer, but it is clear that they have adapted speaker expression lights will be available for all models from here on out. because they've been doing that for a long time now, that even in the Spike 2 era, if your pro wants to have speaker expression lights, pretty much every new game in the last... But do all the speaker lights for Spike 2 work in all the games? Not yet. Like Turtles? Turtles, they have not coded Turtles, the expression speaker lights for Turtles. Not Avengers either. No, we had a customer asking us about this and asked us why we haven't got it done yet. I'm just like, we're not the ones who do it. I don't know what to tell you. Come on, pinball company. Okay, we've gone on a whole lot. That was a great question, Travis, about your mods. But just to wrap up on Dune. Thank you, Joel. We're going way back. Dune has been back in the house here for the last two weeks. I've played the heck out of it. My brother has officially changed his stance. Dune is his favorite pinball machine. That's where he's at. Dune is his favorite pinball machine. My wife, it is her favorite pinball machine. And have you bought one? Because we talked about this last time. No, I have not. No, I have not, and there's reasons.
    42:28
    I think June is a fantastic game. As soon as you get it, they're not going to play it. No, Tom, the reason is because Joel, Daddy Joel, needs a 2026 freaking golf cart. That's the reason. Golf cart's great. Honestly, the thing I'm holding out on is I'm holding out on Winchester Mystery House because I think a lot of the things my wife likes about Dune, she doesn't love, like, it's not like Dune the theme is the thing that she loves. She loves the lighting in that game. The lighting system, she adores. She thinks it's so cool, and they've done an incredible job with making really good moments in Dune that she can experience. I can just see Joel, like, pillow talk at night. Joel. You know Carl D'Angelo, man? What do you want, Travis? Okay. How many years have you been married, Joel? Thirteen. Okay. So, as somebody that's been married for nearly 20 years, I'm going to tell you this. Tread lightly if you're going to attempt to self-gift. Tread lightly. Oh, no. Oh, I'm not. What do you mean, oh, no? Your wife went to Dune, and you're like, I'm going to convince her to do Winchester. No, what I'm saying is I'm waiting for Winchester to come to the house so she can play it, and I'm just curious if Winchester has any of the same, like it's the same, I think the reason she likes June is she likes the moment. Tom, do you see the strategy right here? I'm not selling her. I don't even know if I'm going to like Winchester better than June. I don't know that yet. Are you going to have, like, Carl make, like, a little, like, for Christmas time, he's going to do a voicemail or a voice message so that way, like, your wife will be like, we have to get that. That game is so fantastic. No, I'm not. I just, I was trying to convey to you guys. Hi, this is Carl D'Angelo. God.
    44:27
    My wife, like. The Carl D'Angelo cameo. Here are. Oh, yeah. Okay, Joel, we're sorry. These are the standout things. Go ahead. The reason she likes doing, one, the sympathy multiball. The fact that ball three, she has a chance one shot away. Carl's already confirmed that there will be a sympathy multiball. in Winchester. Got it. Pity multiball, Joel. Pity multiball, yes. There you go. She loves the lighting system, and I think the lighting system, obviously the same, I'm curious if they continue that atmospheric vibe, and I have no doubt they will. So it's the lighting system, it's the sound in Dune, it's the pity multiball, and it's the fun moments during the modes. All of those things, I think, will be in Winchester Mystery House. That is what I'm excited. I want to see if that carries over. And honestly, I think she might actually enjoy that spooky haunted house vibe more than Dune. So I'm excited for her to play it, and I'll report back. I'll report back on what Nicole's findings are on Dune. But if she comes back, she might come back and play one game on it and be like, eh, it's no Dune. Like, she might do that. And you're going to be like, no, we need to go back down there and play it again. Play it again. No, let me call Carl. You can talk to Carl, and he can tell you. But, no, that's what I'm excited for that. And then I also, honestly, like, Beetlejuice is a theme my wife genuinely loves. I say that. Harry Potter was the theme that she loved. And she didn't love Harry Potter. So that seems to be something. Because of the scoop?
    45:58
    She's like, am I in a mode? What are these lessons? What am I? I'm not learning right now. I don't know.
    46:04
    So Dune is still fantastic. What I have heard is there have been quite a bump in sales with Dune after Expo. So that tells me that there were people that had a chance to finally play Dune at Expo and experience how good that game is.
    46:17
    But I just, if I could buy stock in Barrels of Fun right now, I would. I'm really impressed with their games and the trajectory of what they're doing and where they're going.
    46:29
    They're doing a lot right. Transition Oh, hold on I'm trying to think of how nice I want to be Star Wars is here Tom, you've had yours in-house for a while now So have you, Travis Or you've played yours at Pinball Company, obviously This game Well, let me ask you this question I had a guy reach out to me and he said, you know, I watch a bunch of your streams, I'm trying to decide my next game, and I'm between Guardians of the Galaxy or Star Wars Fall of the Empire.
    47:10
    Which one would you suggest? Uh-huh. So just right off the bat. And while you're thinking, currently, guys, we have like 700 subscribers on YouTube. If you're watching this on YouTube, please subscribe. I absolutely think we can get to 1,000. and all those questions I was talking about, you know, Travis saying Stern should start billing us for all of our mods. That's what I heard. If you agree or disagree, write a comment. Like, subscribe, all the things, comment. Tell us why we're right or wrong. So, or answer this question. Answer this question. That's what I want. What do you recommend? I think the rejects on the Death Star on Star Wars would be enough not to buy it. But if you listen to the audio podcast, please do us a favor. subscribe to the YouTube channel. Let's get to 1,000. So, with all that said, answer that question. Guardians of the Galaxy or what you're seeing right now in Star Wars Fall of the Empire. Which one do you think you would recommend? So, it's a great comparison because the mechs are almost the same because you have Groot's head and you have the Death Star. And one of them accepts balls and the other hardly does.
    48:20
    I'd have to go Guardians of the Galaxy. Fan layout. What would you say, Travis? As of like today? Yeah, right now. Yeah, Guardians. Just because I love the theme. I read the comic books. I really like where the code ended up getting to because it was fully fleshed out. It's all done. And I love the music on it. If you use the, I think it was like, what, the Cleveland? Cleveland mod. Yeah.
    48:50
    And so when you can hear all the music, like, I like that vibe and everything. So that's where my answer would be. If I had to choose today, now. Is that an official pinball company answer? I mean, that's what I would choose. That's what you would choose. I know. Yeah, if somebody's going to ask me now, a year from now, when Star Wars is fully fleshed out with the real. Very true. Maybe they get a fix for the Death Star.
    49:15
    I've heard they're working on it. I'd be saying something different. I don't know. What I told the guy, I told the guy Star Wars. and why Joel? I'm glad you asked Travis I'm going to leave this conversation on it's currently .86 code and there is a ton in this game there's a ton in this game and I think there's way more they're going to add I'm looking at the game right now I mean when I streamed it last just to get to the mini wizard mode for just the character modes so that's the rebel missions like that was that was an entire game in itself and that's one of five mini wizard modes because there's going to be one for Vader there's going to be one for once you do all the Java ones one for once you do all the Falcon features then obviously there's some ultimate wizard mode with Jedi like I think depth wise my biggest issues when I had Guardians was the fact that you could pick your mode on the plunge and my entire goal with Guardians was to get to Cherry Bomb multiball so I found to do that you got to beat four modes so I found myself always playing the same four modes just to get to Cherry Bomb. So I was playing it in the same path. I don't – oh, are we – Can you read that, Joel? It looks like a high score for Star Wars. Is that what I'm saying? That is the Not a Jedi Yet champion completing the mode. Thank you very much. Side comment, Mr. Ben – Ben, shout out to you at Stern. He's in charge of all Insider Connect. they're running a special right now or a thing called beat that score, beat the score. And the whole goal with that beat that score is for you to play an insider connected game and then take a picture of your score and you can submit it. And so they're going to pick scores for people that submit. It doesn't have to be an amazing score. It can be any score. So their goal is they're, they're trying to start something. I don't know if it's every week, but for every single Stern insider connected game, they're going to have a badge with a user and their user score. So for that week, if you beat that user score in Star Wars, you will get that badge. So if you personally want to have an opportunity. So like Joel 5 million on the new Star Wars game. A hundred percent. Yep. It would be Joel Bob, my Insider Connected score with my score. So you could say, yes, I beat Joel Bob. I beat him and his score. So it's just, that's something that, yeah. And anybody can submit a score. So that's already open. It's already a thing. So start submitting scores because it's not like you have to have these crazy Carl D'Angelo-level scores. You can submit any score, and they're going to be picking people. And so your username could become a badge. So I think that's pretty cool. I submitted one on Turtles the other night, and we'll see if that happens. It was like 90 – I think it was like 90 million in Turtles. 90 million? I don't know. Or maybe even – I don't know. I'd have to look. But, yeah, hopefully it gets picked. Anyways, with all that said, I don't know. To me, I found myself playing Guardians the same way over and over again, and that's when a game gets stale to me, and I feel like the direction that Star Wars code is going, there's a ton to do and a ton of ways to do it, and that variety is what excites me in owning a pinball machine. That's a very fair assessment. I think Star Wars will be a lot deeper. Yes. But, you know, it remains to be seen about the Death Star shot.
    52:44
    That is frustrating. My score was 99,250,000. What do I not like about Star Wars? I'm glad you asked. I don't like the code. Is it the Death Star shot?
    52:57
    I just talked. I don't like the code. What I mean, I don't. Sorry, Ray. Ray's sitting there. He probably just choked on his hot pocket. I don't like, I'm not, nothing against Ray or Andrew. It's not Ray's fault that that star shot doesn't work. But to me, what I love about code in a game, I like modes that stand out and feel unique and feel like you're experiencing something. And right now, the character modes, there's technically three modes per character. but I'll tell you right now, you know, Han level green versus Han level yellow versus Han level orange feels the exact same. They all feel the exact same. There's just different movie clips. And honestly, Han level green and Leah level green, Leah feels the exact same. Like they're just, I don't know. It's just the character modes all feel rather sainty. Sorry, Ray, but that's to me, when you don't have something that feels unique or stands out, it just kind of feels like it's something that's going on. And then once you add in stacking events, you add Hoth on top of that. Now you just have a whole lot going on. And unfortunately that was a similar, that's how I felt similarly with Harry Potter. You have this amazing theme with this amazing stuff, but now you have so much overlap that nothing's standing out. So am I way off base there? or what are your thoughts on that?
    54:35
    No, I mean, you're right to say that what happens is once things start feeling the same and you start doing stacks on top of it, it almost becomes that you don't really focus on the mode anymore once the multiball happens. You're more or less focused on the multiball. So that tends to be what happens at that point. So, no, I definitely hear what you're saying. And I think that's, we kind of talked about this earlier, about how the modes are on Star Wars. Because obviously if you read the PDF, it's intentional with how they're doing it. With the color-coded characters, with, you know, there's only so many shots per mode. And then the base value goes up. And then there's less shots available for that. So this is very much intentional. Plus character combos, ion, like multipliers. There's so much scoring stuff you can do in each mode. Yeah, and I haven't got a chance to ask Ray about it, but I would imagine, and again, I'm not putting words in his mouth. I have no idea. But I would imagine just logically looking at how that plays out and how that is, I would think that that's done on purpose in order to make the game more approachable for somebody that kind of is a casual or somebody that is the average user that may not play pinball every single day. because just like you said on something like Guardians, if you understand how each mode works and you know you're trying to get somewhere, maybe you might end up going the same direction. Whereas with this, it's kind of interesting because I think, too, the characters, of course, you have the character combos and you have different things. So I'm curious to see. I need to dig into it more to see what happens exactly. Because I know that there's different, I guess there's different buffs or boosts according to what characters you play on that game. And there's a long list of them on the PDF. A lot of books. Right, exactly. So I know that there's reasons for this that goes beyond just the foundational level of the first things that you play. It's just I haven't been able to explore that enough to know where that leads and which direction would be the best way to go to take advantage of something like that. I know Tilt Forums has it all laid out, but I think it's something like, you know, if you beat a Yoda mode, then your spinners are worth 10% more the rest of the game. Like, it's stuff like that. There's all these perks. Well, for sure, for sure, go to SternPenball.com because they have the PDF, the rules PDF on there. Yeah, that's pretty much it's up to date as much as it can be. But there's sometimes some things on Tilt Forms that gets incorrect that's actually there on the PDF. But Tilt Forms is still great. I'm saying just be sure and look at that first. Sure. You really want to know where to go. And to be fair, I mean, Tom's harping on the Death Star shot, but when I look at the layout of this game, how do you make a mode unique with this layout of the game? Well, the left orbit and the right orbit are always just going to be in orbit. The Luke shot is always going to be a Vuk.
    57:30
    The Death Star, it can either, with the thing closed, the ball can come back, or it can reject, or it can go in. You know, on a premium rally, the ramp in the middle will actually, that's something that changes. It's either up or down. But, you know, the Java shot is always the same shot unless the drop's down. The right ramp is always the same shot. So it's just like you can't, you know, it's not a dynamic play field in that regards. You know, it's not like, okay, I'm going to alter these shots so this mode feels different than the other mode. And I think that's one of the hardware or design advantages of, I mean, let's compare it to another stern, Kong. When you play Cross the Chasm, you are shooting that game in a completely different way than when you play a different mode. Because now all of a sudden, you're just trying to get up to that upper left. You're trying to get the log diverter up. You have to play that game, and the way that ball path is going for that mode feels completely different than when you're trying to play whatever the Stegosaurus mode. You know, like, that is something, I don't know, that to me. That's something a dynamic layout gives you the advantage of. Yes, 100%. And that's what, I actually heard this recently, that Bug at Spooky Pinball. He apparently, one of the design constraints that he gave Spooky Luke is he goes, I want every shot in the game to do three things. So every shot in the game should either, like, allow the ball to go through it or should be diverted off the path or potentially change its course, like come back at you. So if you have that type of mentality when you're designing a game, that every shot in the game needs to have other paths. You know, I know Godfather advertised that, that there's like all the different combinations. And then obviously Harry Potter, there's a lot of stuff diverting. Elwynn's known for that incredibly well. It's like when you build that type of stuff into a game and you can allow the shots to change and act differently, that enables the coder to make modes feel unique and stand out. And that's something that I think, you know, Ray had his hands full here with Star Wars. It's just it's not the most dynamic layout. So to try to build modes that feel different, I think, is really hard to do. I don't know. Does that design philosophy make sense? No, no. It makes sense. What are we thinking? No, it makes sense. And that's, I mean, that's why I've been telling you guys behind the scenes, like I'm waiting to see if somebody can figure out how to bring back a fan layout that makes you feel like you're kind of back in the mid-'90s again, or late 90s, right? So you kind of look at medieval madness, Attack from Mars, right? Classic fan layouts. But they always get you wanting to come back for more. But those games, they're not super deep either. And we hear it all the time. It's about modern pinball. People feel like the rule sets are too complex. So I feel like there's something there. It's almost, and I compared this to what we were talking about the other day, it's almost like when you watch a YouTube video or you see Gordon Ramsay telling all the chefs, make a scrambled egg. And they try to figure out, like, how to do this, right? It seems like the most simplest thing to do, but how do you make it elegant? How do you make it great? How do you make it unique? So I'm just – I'm curious if there's still space in the pinball industry for a fan layout to come out that feels like that again. Because it seems like right now almost everybody's leaning towards dynamic layouts. I think the only games I can think of off the top of my head – you guys can correct me if I'm wrong – The only games I could think of that are more fan-ish are Star Wars that recently came out and John Wick. So I'm trying to think of any other games from anybody, from any other manufacturer, a modern game that's like a true fan layout. Well, how – I mean, like, obviously Stranger Things was a fan layout. That was 2019. So that's – Nearly six years ago. But that's what I mean. Like, that's – legitimately, that's probably 40-plus releases ago. When you look at the whole entire industry, everything that's come out. Like, I'm trying to think. So let's think about this. Predator has an upper flipper to it. Yeah, no. Avatar.
    62:05
    No. Harry Potter. Maybe Venom to an extent. I know it has some changes. Right. So Venom Pro. No, Venom Pro is not dynamic at all. but the Venom-Primer rally could feel dynamic with the changing the ball pass.
    62:21
    I mean, Mando to an extent, but I get it. I mean, I don't know. I'm just curious if that's possible again because, again, that's Brian Eddy doing that, the same one who did Medieval Madness, the same one that did Attack from Mars, doing that now. And those games aren't seen in the same light, right, as those, even though they're modern games, even though they have huge themes on them, right? I mean, Venom is what it is, but let's be honest, Mandalorian, big theme. Stranger Things, big theme. Yeah. I mean, honestly, Evil Dead is kind of a fan layout, right? It kind of is, but yet that game is a little dynamic. But you still have the little flipper, though. Oh, the sling flipper? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you could play it in complete. You don't have to use that sling flipper. I mean, it helps hitting the hand. But the way they did the code there, the different modes within Evil Dead make you focus on different areas of the play field and play the game differently. Right. But that game still has modes that forces you to go horizontal. So I'm talking about games in which you're not forced to go horizontal. Attack from Mars, you don't do that. I mean, Cactus Canyon obviously is, but that's not a modern game. I don't know. Is there a fan layout that doesn't have some horizontal to it, though?
    63:43
    I mean, everything's going to have shots to the side. You know what I mean? But I'm talking like an added flipper besides the two flippers. Deadpool has his targets on the side. Yeah. So you have some horizontal. I mean, you're always going to have something on the side, but I'm meaning like a flipper that sends the ball horizontal. That's what I'm meaning. Like something like that. Evil Dead has that with the little flipper. Yeah. Sure. Okay.
    64:06
    But I don't think it's like a, I guess. Like what would happen if Elwin woke up. It's not like you're hitting an upper ramp shot with it or, you know, like a loop. Like I just, like for me, I just wonder what happens if Keith wakes up one morning. He's just like, damn it, I'm just going to make a fan layout. And it's going to have six shots on it. And we're going to figure out how to make this game an absolute banger. Like is that possible? Jaws is the closest thing Elwin's made to a fan layout, right? Like, I understand the mini-flipper. Right, but I'm not talking about close. I'm meaning, like, somebody actually does it and says, I'm going to enter this space and I'm going to see. Yeah, like, is that possible? Can that be done? No, I'm just wondering if that can still be done. Because everybody's dynamic. Everything's dynamic. Is Bond's 60th considered a fan layout? I mean, it's not really a fan, I guess. I mean, we could just say Italian Bottom at that point. Right, right. I'm just curious. Like, would that game even, like, would people even like that? Would people like a Jack Danger to where it doesn't, right, to where you're more focused with those two flippers down below? Okay. So he kind of did that a little bit with X-Men, but then, of course, he had the whole side. Yeah, exactly. So, like, how do you do it? I'm streaming. I mean, the next game I'm streaming is Munsters, believe it or not. So Zach tomorrow is picking up. He's picking up Dune. He's picking up Star Wars. And he happened to get a Munsters in on trade. So it's one of three Spike 2 games I haven't streamed. So we're streaming Munsters. That is a fan layout. That is a fan layout, right? So it's about as simple as it comes.
    65:50
    And, well, so is Metallica. There's two big champions. Metallica, Guardians. These are all fan layouts. Right, there's all kinds. What I'm asking is, can that be done entering 2026 or even into 2027? Can that be done now, considering what we know the games have come out since then? Can it be done, yes. But can it be done at scale to where people will accept it and it sells thousands of units? If Metallica had not been made and the Metallica remake was brand new, brand new game, brand new concept, and that's what was dropped on our laps, do you think if that was a brand new design for people in 2025, do you think people would have immediately loved it or crapped all over it because it was a family out? Metallica, with what it is. I think people would love it because it's got the snake, it's got the graveyard, I don't know. And I love those spinners. I personally love the layout. I honestly, I don't know how I can answer that. Because the people are like, oh, he just copied Guardians. Like if that's what people. I mean, it's tough because there's so many people that have come out with games since then, since all these games that we're talking about, right? I mean, there's games that their entire portfolios are dynamic layouts, barrels of fun, free games. Are you saying that's good or bad? I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just curious if there's space in pinball right now. I think there could, but you would have to have some kind of developers or something. Well, yeah, of course. But the last ones Stern has come out with, they haven't done as well as others. Like John Wick hasn't done as well as others. Finn hasn't done as well as others. Rush has an upper flipper. It has an upper flipper. That's a dynamic layout. I'm talking about just Italian bottom fan. Have you ever played Rush? I have. I was trying to think of it. I'm like, where is it? Tom's about to reach through this screen at you. I know. I had to think about it. I'm just asking. These are just questions that I wonder as I sit alone in my room pondering life. So I figured I'd ask you two. Foo Fighters Pro? Jail cell. Foo Fighters Pro? Foo Fighters has an upper flipper. Pro.
    68:03
    Has an upper flipper. There's no main flipper. There's a flipper. Oh, it's upper loop. You have her on the right so you can hit the upper loop. That's okay. We know who we're talking to. God. That's a good question. Oh, I'm going to get a hate mail for that. Okay, so we're leading into this because Walking Dead has two flippers. There we go. So now we can make the transition. Okay. I mean, that's all we're going to go. No, I don't want your transition. I want to talk about Star Wars still. Foo Fighters Pro doesn't have an upper flipper. That's where we're at right now. Take your train to Scarbridge.
    68:37
    Just to wrap up Star Wars, all I'm saying is if at the beginning of the year you told me, hey, guess what? These are the games that are coming out this year. You're going to have another Star Wars game. You're going to have Harry Potter. You're going to have Beetlejuice. You're going to have Winchester Mystery House. You're going to have King Kong. What am I missing?
    68:56
    Dune. No, Dune was last year. Was it? Technically, right? But I'm saying, like, if you just dropped all those themes, to me I saying from a code standpoint unfortunately I haven loved the Star Wars code That sounds really mean and I not trying to be mean Ray but I like thinking of when it comes to immersive like how well does the code do the game or make you feel like you living in Star Wars I'm waiting for that. Maybe it'll come with time because it's only .86. But even we've said that a lot about Harry Potter. Like, Harry Potter, there are moments where it really feels like Harry Potter, but there's others where it just feels like a lot's going on. Is that fair to say, Tom, you own Harry Potter? Do you feel like the code really does Harry Potter justice, or is it a lot? I mean, to me it does. I can see where to other people it doesn't, though, just because there's so much going on. Okay, so maybe it's like atmosphere or immersive experience is kind of the thing that I'm really laughing about. I can say, like, oh, there's not as much going on as Star Wars, but, like, I can feel the moments when I'm playing the game. There are moments. The Darth Vader modes are great. More so than maybe the previous one, but. Yes. But.
    70:23
    I think, you know, forget it. But if you can fill the moments, isn't the game doing its job, though? Yes. If you can fill the moments, you know what I mean? Yes. But maybe it's just, I mean, I got to the mini-wizard mode, the rebel mission, the mini-wizard mode where you're actually battling Darth Vader, and that's a moment. Like, that feels great. So maybe it's just the fact that they're there, you just got to work to get to them. You're not a Jedi yet, I think, is, like, fantastic. It's fantastic. I thought you were telling Joel he's not a Jedi. I was like, damn, one player.
    70:58
    Harry Potter, like the owl multiball is an awesome moment, or defend the castle or whatever. That's an awesome moment. This is what I'll say about Harry Potter. You've got to get way into it. Well, playing it, once you get into the multiballs, it's a lot of fun. Like getting to the upper play field, doing the Quidditch stuff, that's a lot of fun. There's so many great qualities to Harry Potter. So I know we've talked about it in the past few podcasts in terms of how the lessons work and stuff like that. And I just, I approached it and I played it with my wife and I just, she asked like, okay, how do we play this? And I kind of told her what the lessons are, but we just said, okay, we're going to totally ignore it. We're going to act like that doesn't even exist. If we accidentally hit the scoop, so be it. And you know what? We were still putting up scores just fine. It was just, it was so arbitrary behind everything, which whether that's good or bad, that's up for anybody else to decide how they want to approach it. But I will say going after multiballs, that was fun. Actually getting to play the multiballs, that was fun. So it's kind of interesting because it's almost like an inverse GNR, right, to where I don't mind the amount of multiballs that are coming out with Harry Potter. Like I don't mind that at all because I don't have time to look up at the screen anyways half the time. So give me more action. It's a dynamic layout. I want to see where I can send the ball to. I want to see where I can get a jackpot at. It's the execution. Yep, 100%. I'm just trying to think of like – I'm not trying to be critical. It's just this is something that I've really been thinking about a lot. Oh, you don't have to try to be, Joel. You're going all the way. I know, and I feel – It's fine. I know this is going to piss people off. It's fine. Specifically Raymond Davidson. I'm very sorry. Here's the thing. It's your opinion. Never feel bad for having an opinion because I guarantee you, I hope all of our listeners out there have an opinion that they feel like is worth expressing because everybody's opinion is worth it. And that's how these games get better, because we share opinions and thoughts of what we think is good and bad about a game. That's how anybody gets better. Yes, I agree. And it's just the whole point of this podcast, right, is just the three of us having a conversation. That's what we're trying to do. And another mode that stood out to me here is, shout out to Dwight and Gieske, in D&D, there's one of the modes, one of the stages, you know, you're trying to be stealthy. And the fact that every time a sling gets hit, you lose, you know, a percentage. And then once you're too loud, boom, that's when people get out of the play field. Like that's a moment. That feels now all of a sudden I am playing that game completely differently than I was before that mode. And that, I don't know, like that's the creativity that I love. I just don't care about points. I don't care about jackpots, multipliers. I personally don't care about any of that. I feel what I like is when I start a mode or a multi-ball or a mini wizard mode, and now the game feels different than before, and I'm playing it differently. And you can do that with lighting. You can do that with sound, the overall vibe that it gives off. But when I feel that modes are very Sains-y or very similar, where it's like, yeah, you hit these shots and then you hit those shots. I don't know. It's just hard for me to really get locked into a game. Right. We've had this conversation off podcast that, you know, some people like they just like the scoring aspect of games. And other people like like the adventure and the and the journey through it. And there's nothing wrong with either way, you know. So I totally see what you're saying, Joel. You're just like there's got to be more moments in that Star Wars game to kind of grab you into it. I think what I'm here. Yes, exactly. And they're at 0.86. But those and that's something where I think they've made a solid base. But where I'm at, where it's like I spent a lot of time in the character modes and that's where I wish they felt different or a little more unique. That's my I mean, maybe I'm trying to be constructive. I mean, it depends what the user is, though. Right. Because, I mean, I've seen people with, I'm not even joking, with $150,000, $200,000 plus game rooms of just pinball machines everywhere. They would not be able to tell me even the baseline rules for any of them. And they admit it. They don't care about the rules at all. All they care is, is it fun to flip? Is the sound cool? Does it have lights that just, like, make sense to them? That's just kind of just entertaining for them? there's a lot of people out there like that too and yeah i honestly the way that i see it those types of people i promise you it's it's kind of weird it's like i don't think they're all listening to podcasts maybe somebody's listening to this one that falls under that i know for sure there's a lot of them on pin side because they all that everybody i talk to they do have pin side accounts and they don't care a lick about rules or lcds or anything all they care is does the art look cool is the game fun to flip and doesn't have a light show. Like that is legitimately their main priority, and they are shelling out a lot of money for that. So I don't know. It's kind of unique. Like I don't mind hearing what you're saying, Joel, because it sounds like you're kind of coming more towards what Tom and I, how we view pinball, and we see what do the shots do, and are you incentivized to actually hit a certain shot or a certain combination or a certain sequence of shots? And I think that's, you know, for people out there, if you're not thinking of pinball like that, it does open up a lot more opportunity for you as a player once you do start viewing pinball through that prism to see the combinations of shots. So it's not for everybody, but I think that's, like, you can correct me if I'm wrong, Joel. I feel like that's where you're coming from. That's what I am. I mean, here Tom and I are singing X-Men's praises, but there are some modes. There's mode improvement. They could improve some of the modes. Some of the modes are kind of boring or kind of stale in a way. I believe they will. I agree. But I also do feel that the Wolverine mode does feel very different than the Juggernaut mode. And that's something that's, like, that's important to me, that these, that when I'm playing a different mode, they feel, they feel different. And that is, and that's with a, yeah, it's not like the layout completely changed between those two modes. And I understand, and I guess being a, you know, I'm not a coder, but I could imagine being a coder, you know, in that particular game, you have nine things that you're working towards. and this you have, what, three times eight, 24. 24, yeah. Yeah, and plus this one has movie assets, that one doesn't. So, you know, that's the hard thing. Right, right, right. Yeah, I would say it's easy. It's a lie. It's like how do you differentiate all that? How do you make everything feel unique?
    78:11
    That, you know, that's the hard thing. I don't know that. I mean, that's why I like the Guardians rule set, because everything feels unique when you play it. Maybe why the lessons in Harry Potter feel flat to you guys is just because it's too much. Yeah. How do you make 92 unique experiences or whatever? I think it's kind of like, I compare it to this, Tom. So I really love cheeseburgers, right? I just fucking love cheeseburgers. That Kuma place was awesome. Exactly. Yeah, they're awesome. Yeah, if I have a milkshake and a beer, like I'm in hog heaven. But so about 20 years ago, I realized I loved cheeseburgers so much that I got to this place that had this contest that if you could eat a five-pound cheeseburger, you'd get it for free. And I'm like, oh, I can do this all day long. And so they said you can take away one condiment and you could put on one other. I'm like, oh, okay, we'll just take off the onions. I don't want to eat a bunch of those. Just put extra mayonnaise. It'll be fine. So I realized, even though I love mayonnaise, I fucking hated mayonnaise then because it was too much on the front.
    79:22
    Yeah, I couldn't eat it. So that's kind of what some of these games are like. That's what Harry Potter is like for me, right? Like I love certain elements of it, but it's just like it's a five-pound burger. It's just so much. So if I can drill it down to the two pounds, I'm good. It's a lot of fun. If you look back to the 90s and you listen to, like, interviews with Pat Lawler, and he talks about Adam's family. And Adam's family came out. Everybody was, like, going nuts about it, right? I mean, this old, what, 22, 23,000, that game? Sold a lot. And they had modes. And the next game was Twilight Zone. And it was similar but different. And they kind of like kind of, as he said, they kind of drove it over the cliff. They just kind of they threw so much at that game that people at the time were like some people were going up to it like Powerball would come out and be like, what the hell is this? You know, so I remember I think I've said this on a podcast before, but first time I played Twilight Zone, I had absolutely no idea what was going on. you know I shot the ball over there and then all of a sudden it came out over here and I was like what the hell just happened you know but that was my first experience like playing the game and playing like that was like my first month in pinball you know so I had like no clue but you know as as what I'm getting at is are we kind of going over the cliff with some of these and and I think Travis was alluding to that with the family out and all that. But are we getting too deep into these rule sets kind of thing?
    81:15
    I'll tell you straight up, yes. Yeah, I'll tell you straight up, yes. 100%. Maybe not for us, the enthusiasts.
    81:24
    Yeah, maybe not us, the enthusiasts, but, you know, for somebody else. It's just like anything else. If you try to explain the game to somebody, you should be able to explain the basics in 30 seconds and they understand it, right? It's a quick elevator pitch. It's the rule cards. And it's fine to have extra nuance on top. Fully cool, right? You just keep going. But I do know, like, some of these, though, it's just people, their eyes just glaze over if you go too far with it. All the app suppliers and, you know. Absolutely. There is something to that. Even people that play in tournaments.
    82:02
    Jared streams with me every week, and there are some games where I start to explain what to do, and he just shuts down. He doesn't. And he is a pinball enthusiast. He is a streamer. That's what he does, and he's just like, eh. Joel, I'll tell you what. 90% of our deliveries, same exact thing. I always ask him, I'm like, hey, do you want to know how to play this game? And if so, like, if they do, I just tell them the basics. that gets them started. And then I always tell them, then if you want to discover more, just play the game. You can go as deep with it that you want to go. Right? Because if you do understand it to that level, I mean, you've got to literally be like Magnus playing chess. Right? If you really want to know deep down how you set, like, the 48X multiplier shot combo shot, of course it's a lot to set up. Not everybody has to do that, but. I mean, how are you going to explain something to somebody? It's the basics. You're going to tell them how to start a mode and how to start a multiball. You're not going to go any deeper than that until they get that down. And I have learned you have to explain to them what happens during the multiball. Because I've seen this to where they don't understand the ball saves. They don't understand, like, the ball gets put in the, you know, in the shooter lane that's going to automatically plunge out. There's so many balls there. We've had somebody call us for a tech situation because their game kept giving them extra balls out there, and they didn't realize there was a Bozo multiball that took, like, two shots to get to. So, yeah, it's funny how that works, but that's just how pinball is at times. My parents, so Turtles has been on my parents now for a few years, and my dad, he goes, I do want to, like, officially request if there's a way that we could swap out Turtles for another game. That's what he said. One, it's hard, but it's like he goes, I just don't understand the game. And Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is ramp, ramp, pizza shot. That's how you start a mode.
    84:06
    If you want a multi-ball, you hit the pizza shot. That's it. But yet that, that alone, he's already just like, it's too much. It's too much, and he's over, like, that's too much. It's too, it's overwhelming to him. So I'm probably going to swap out. I'll probably give him Godzilla for a while, and I'm hoping Godzilla is just one of those, you know, do I ever expect him to get into a battle? Probably not. That right scoop is hard, but he'll get into that multiball. I will say, though, what your dad is saying is exactly the reason why there's always going to be a market for games like Pulp Fiction. I was about to give Josh. I know, okay, Josh Sharp, I know, like, he doesn't have that much confidence, and I know he doesn't. I hate that guy. He doesn't have strong opinions because I know he's very, like, he's very cautious. He doesn't want to rub people the wrong way. So I really want to boost his esteem here. I hope he realizes, like, you know, kind of, you know, believe in yourself, Josh. You know, like, really. It was very unfair playing him at the Stern Pro Circuit. Oh, no, I forgot about that. What Josh did with the code of Pulp Fiction, there's nothing about Pulp Fiction that's dynamic, right? It's not a dynamic layout at all, but yet that code, the modes feel unique. Honestly, what is it, the shot, that mode is incredible, and that's done not with an LCD screen. That's done purely with the light show in the sound package and very unique and creative rules. And on top of that, there's no stacking.
    85:48
    No stacking. Yeah, they don't let you. He's an anti-stacker. Yeah, I think I'm becoming the anti-stacker. I don't want the stack. But that was a smart decision. There's a smart decision to do on that type of game because it clearly differentiates things. And plus, too, what Pulp has going for it is the insert, so you pretty much know what's going on in the game. Like, everything is right there for you. It's great. It's super easy to explain it to people to be like, yeah. Just hear it here.
    86:20
    It's doable. And so, Josh, I hope you're hearing this. No, it's not. What's GIMP? Multi-ball, Dad. I don't know if I can explain that. That's not going to fit in. But honestly, it's a game. I freaking loved it. I loved it when it was here. So, Josh, I hope that helped you out with your Steam issues a little bit. And, you know, just be comfortable in who you are and your opinions. Just speak them loud. You know, people are ready to listen. So, Joel, Tom briefly alluded to it. So we might as well, because everybody would be asking anyways and wondering why we haven't said anything about it. So Tom and I also played in the Stern Pro Circuit Finals. So speaking of Josh Sharp. And it's a brand-new format, right? Dude, yeah, we freaking crushed it. Brand-new. My God. I would have won the whole thing if they didn't change it. So for the listeners, if you've ever seen, a cup stacking video. Just Google cup stacking and you're going to see some 8-year-old Oh, he's got the timer. You're going to see an 8-year-old be able to do this, but they have these timers where you have to put down both your hands and then you stack the cups and then you have to slap the timer.
    87:33
    Somebody had the brilliant idea to bring this into pinball. So they would set a goal and be like, start calling There it is. Right? There it is. So they'd say, start calling multi-ball. Ready, go. So it doesn't matter if you drain it, doesn't anything. It's all timed. And that's how they did the Stern Pro Circuit finals. And you guys just crushed it. We did. We did, absolutely. And you'll be proud of us, Joel. You have just as many wins as Tom and I do at the Stern Pro Circuit finals. Top three? in this group. Yeah, or 30, 31, 32. Yeah, somewhere around there. So playing at speed is not – I mean, pinball to you guys is controlled, right? And how do you play controlled when you're trying to go, go, go, go?
    88:27
    It was too hard. As a viewer, as a viewer – Yeah. Well, as a viewer, there was parts I liked. But as a viewer, there was parts of the part I liked, but I felt so bad for the commentators because what is there to commentate? There's no, every person playing that game is doing the exact same thing as the person beforehand. And it's, and it's short. It's like, all right, let's see how they, it's no, there's no strategy to it. It's just like, let's see if they can do it. So I mean, there's some strategy to it. There's some, it's funny. So, like, on – I think it was on – was it D&D or it might have been – I was on some game, and I remember I tried to tilt real quick because the ball was taking way too long because I wanted to get through the animation, and then the ball, like, accidentally nearly popped back up to the play field. Oh, wow. Bowen came over, and he's like, were you trying to death save on that? I was like, no, Bowen, I'm not trying to death save live on stream in front of everybody. I'm trying to tilt out. There is strategy there. Yeah, cancel out animation. or drain to not qualify certain things. Or like, oh, crap, I accidentally started the wrong multiple, so I need to tilt to end that so I can get back towards what I'm actually trying to work towards. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that could have happened, but just the way that the rules were in general, I think it was more or less that it plays with your mind that you do have to play fast. If you're not used to playing fast, you're used to trapping up, used to playing steady, and you have to speed it up. It's just, yeah, it was weird. Tom's not used to fast. He's used to, like, lasting a long time. That's what Tom is known for.
    90:05
    We both did. We lasted how many games total, Tom? You and I last 12? Yeah, together. How many? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I think we both only lost 6-0. Josh, let me pick all the objectives, too. So who made that choice? And do you not like that person? The high seed gets to pick either the objective or whether they want to go first or second. I meant more the format. Who decided that is how we're doing it? Oh, that Meeks guy, Josh. Yeah, the one that doesn't talk much. Right, right, right, right, right, right, right, that guy. I forget. He does make a lot of IFPA-related decisions that somehow screw you over, Tom, doesn't he? Isn't that his thing? Like, how do I hurt someone? Yeah, I think that's fair. I think it's fair. Yeah.
    90:57
    Yeah. Right. Yeah. I know. He's had some sleepless nights about it. That's cool.
    91:08
    What do we got? We, we, I don't know how we hour and a half. We still have to talk about the walking game. That's come out recently, right? The walking dead. Sold out everywhere.
    91:20
    Sold out everywhere. Good luck finding one. Is it though? No Tom No it's not Okay let's be honest What did we No this got me in trouble last time with Fern I'll talk Nobody cares Do we go again?
    91:46
    No I got The artwork was really picked on. Mm-hmm. It looks too much like Deadpool, which, I mean, because it's red?
    92:02
    Is that why? I don't know. I don't think it looks like Deadpool. It's colorful. It's just like I told you guys. If I look at this game, I actually like the art for what it is, but for me, it doesn't match the theme, and I say that as a huge Walking Dead fan. I had the original games. The very first game I got, I read all the comics. I watched all the shows. Huge fan of it. And even when I showed my wife this, I showed my kids this. They, like, my kids thought I was playing a practical joke on them. Because they knew the remastered was coming out and they were curious about getting one. And so when I showed it to them, they didn't, it just didn't click in with them because they know what the Walking Dead is too. So, I mean, it's just kind of I don't know. It's just like I told you guys, it feels like what Stern did was that they, they pulled the walking dead into the Stern universe is what it feels like instead of Stern saying, okay, we're going to play in the walking dead universe and pull pinball into the walk, you know, or the walking dead universe into pinball in general. So I don't know. I, it's, it's crazy too. Cause I guarantee the game's going to play great. the rules are going to be fantastic because the original was just that. I mean, it's got the crossbow on it, though. Yeah, well, I mean, they opened up some of the shots, though. They opened up the riot shot. They opened up, yeah. Yep, the riot shots opened up a little bit. The tunnel shot has opened up a little bit. And I think the ramp, the left ramp, had some fixing to it in general. But, yeah, if you compare the riot shot, you'll see it. I would have to play it. So, I mean, originally, the original game, I liked the pro so much better. I just didn't like the crossbow.
    93:54
    But, anyways. Okay, so, yes, you guys said a lot there. I know that's a good point. They brought Walking Dead. Well, honestly, I was playing with my lights because, you know, he's a footballer, why not? Um, walking the, the, that's a good comment of, they brought walking dead into stern. And, and honestly, if you look at what they drew, the actual art, it's not like it's potato face or anything like the art is really good. The things are very well drawn. It's very well designed. It's just, when I, when we think of the walking dead, the show, it's kind of a gross, brutal, gritty show. And then I think there was a lot of people really hoping for comic book art and the comic book art is black and white. and so some people were like they should have gone comic book art other people are like it's a dark brutal gritty show the original art package was disgusting it was dark and gritty and gross and disgusting honestly there are some people that feel it's one of the worst pinball packages period so how do you improve upon that I think people were like let's keep it walking dead but can you make it a little less gross a little more maybe a little I don't know maybe focus more on characters. I just don't think anybody on their bingo card was expecting colorful, like color explosion. I don't think anybody was expecting that. And so I was surprised by it. I mean, when I first saw it, I was like, whoa, that is a direction I was not expecting. They were thinking of the comic book art, which I've read the comics. There is no color.
    95:30
    Yeah. It's black and white, right? It's black and white. Yep. Yep. So the original versions of them, yes. I think that to me is, it just reminds me of like the Kong release. There were people when Kong came out, people were like, Kong is black and white. Why'd they go so colorful? So I think there are some people, pin size specific, that are like all aboard the Stern is too colorful train. And then this comes out and boom, all the color. So I don't know. Maybe people just, I think there's plenty of people that just like the man. I've heard black and white editions.
    96:01
    Oh, well, there are people that just. I am so torn on this, though, because looking at it, right, like seeing Daryl shoot a walker through the head with a crossbow. Yeah, with the explosion behind him. That objectively looks bad. I think that looks cool. Michonne slicing. So the cabinet, to me, looks cool. It just happens to be. Just desaturate it. Desaturate it 25%. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, I'm not an expert on art, of course, Joel. So, yeah, we know we know for a fact that like Stern, they ramp up the saturation on their photos. I will say every pinball machine looks better in person than it does on the photos. Yeah, every one of them. I have to think from a marketing standpoint, somebody at Stern would have seen this and been like, no, we're not going to cook up the saturation.
    96:55
    AMC signed off on it. I mean, that's what I don't know. I mean, it's just tough because, one, the art is – the only thing I can compare it to is Metallica Remake. And, sure, there are people that were like, I prefer Dirty Donnie's art. But there were a lot of people that saw the Remake art and were like, that's incredible. There was – the vast majority of people thought that. But even besides the art, day one, they were already talking about the new modes they were adding, all the mechs they've changed. Like, there was a lot more that they added into that game. So for people to upgrade to a newer version of Metallica or people that have always wanted Metallica, they're like, well, this game is the best version of the game by far. Unfortunately, I just feel like with the Walking Dead reveal, they've shown us very little of what's going to be on the LCD screen. I have not heard what they've added from a code standpoint. Are there new modes? Are there new ways to play it or new experiences? I that that mystery alone it's like well is there is there really that much more to this game besides you know they've improved the layout a little bit and changed the art package I don't I don't know those answers and that uncertainty is enough for people not to buy a game right well you know and that comes from a marketing and branding standpoint because here we are talking on a podcast you've watched this right Joel you do content and you don't have those answers still so that's like To me, if I'm wanting to put out a pinball machine, those are answers I want to give people immediately. And that's kind of what we talked about. That I thought was kind of off balance with how Star Wars was released. And they kind of did the same thing again with The Walking Dead to where they're talking about the platform and Spike 3 a lot. Everything else that I'm just like, people, I just know this for a fact, 100% confirmation on this. people that are seeing this, they don't know spike three. They don't know spike two. They don't know spike one. They don't know if it's spike 50. All they care about is does the machine look cool? Is the shots fun? What all can I do with this machine? And that's kind of like I'm wondering how, when CERN's going to push it towards establishing what happens under that glass as opposed to that this is spike three and this has, you know, certain speakers and stuff like that, because just like, that's why we're having this conversation because we don't know those answers. Now, from my understanding, I think there's going to be another wizard mode added into this game a little bit earlier to the start button compared to what it is to my understanding. I think that's what's going to happen. I remember something in the webinar talked about that. Maybe somebody can confirm that, but, but yeah, you're absolutely right. It's. Yeah. They did that. Yeah. Merle and one other character. Yeah. So it's, I don't know, and you've made the comment before, there are people that discover pinball every day. They're like, discover that you can buy a pinball machine every day. So if they go to Flippin' Out or they go to the pinball company's website and they see what machines they can buy right now, Walking Dead's available. It wasn't available before because it was an older game, but now it's going to be available. I just know. I'll tell you it's going to be an uphill battle. convincing Walking Dead fans when they see this? Because I've tried already. I've tried already with a couple of them. And I'm just, you know, that's my job to figure that out. I just don't know the answer yet.
    100:29
    Walking Dead as a theme, though, is not old enough to be considered retro. Or I'm trying to think of, like, I don't know. Well, the theme's just not as strong as it was. When it came out the first time, right, when there was like 15, 20 million people tuning in every Sunday night with watch parties and all that. Let's face facts. That was the American iconic moment, right? And it's just, it's kind of got diluted over the years, which that happens, right? It's what you do, but I don't know. I just hope that gameplay comes out on it pretty quick. And I think that's going to be the key of it. Gameplay, people playing it on location. I think that's going to be kind of the long tail on this, that maybe it's not going to be the shooting star that comes out of the gate super fast, but maybe it can pick up later on. Well, let's – I agree. I mean, I'm going to stream it here hopefully within the next few weeks whenever it comes out. I'm looking forward to playing it. I mean, it is The Walking Dead. Let's not forget The Walking Dead is a fantastic game. I have no doubt it's going to be fun. I had a blast when I streamed the original, you know, a few months back. It's going to be a great time. I just want to know, Tom, I need to know this, Joel, because Tom loved The Fun House. art so much on the LE. How are you going to feel about this? That's what I'm curious of. Are you buying one, Tom? That's a great point. No, I'm not getting one. Yeah. So even though they've improved the layout and they're going to add, maybe there'll be another Wizard mode, you just. I have to play it. I got a pro. It has expression lights. The bullets move backwards, Tom. We need to revisit this in six months to see if Tom breaks down and gets one. Absolutely. I got a feeling when he plays it. I got a feeling.
    102:12
    Comment below on the YouTube video or email us. It's time I'm going to buy one. Let's start that full. I mean, it's very different than Metallica where the LEs sold out. They sold out day – they were sold out beforehand, and now still the Metallica LEs go for well above MSRP. I mean, it's – Oh, yeah. There was no way this was going to sell out day one or week one. It just – Well, the question I want to – And it's not because of what the game looks like. It's because of the theme. It's because it's Walking Dead. It just was not going to do that right now. So the question, the last, maybe this is another question I want to, or we can go down this path. But, you know, we don't talk much about Harry Potter. Harry Potter has sold incredibly well, and they're just going to be making games for a while. Like, that game, let's not underestimate, like, Harry Potter has done very well. That's all I'm going to say. I'm just going to set that aside. But when we look at Stern recently, I don't know numbers, but I do not think Star Wars Fall of the Empire has sold as well as Stern or distributors probably hoped. That's an assumption for me personally, but the vibe I'm getting because there's still LEs available and this game is like, initially it has not sold as well as probably people hoped. And then same thing with The Walking Dead. I do not think The Walking Dead has sold week one as well as Star Hunter distributors probably hoped. Now you compare that to Barrels of Fun Winchester Mystery House and they sold out day one You compare that to Beetlejuice which is coming out this Friday They sold out Nobody even seen the game yet Do you think numbers have something to do with that 999 Beetlejuice? Oh, yeah. History 500?
    104:02
    Yeah. If Stern says, hey, we're only selling 750 Star Wars, then we're sitting here talking about how fast it sold out.
    104:10
    Same with Walking Dead? If they said we're only making 1,000 of these, one model, 1,000 boots? No. Walking Dead's not that powerful of a theme. No, I can tell you that right now. And you guys know how I know that. I've told you guys about how I look at themes and the algorithms that I look at and everything. I think if they would have said, okay, Walking Dead, there's 350 to 400, I think then we're really close. I think if it's just that and that's that, I think we're really, really close. Now, Beetlejuice is the exact opposite. Now, if you guys want to know, like, by every analytic I've looked at, there could be 2,000 to 2,500 of those actually sell at the price point that they put it at. That was going to be my question. Are they – did they – I mean, I know Barrels was asking the same thing when they sold out. Did we leave money on the table? What did I tell you guys as soon as I saw Winchester? Like, this game is going to sell out. It's going to sell out quick. Like, there's no doubt about it. It's just so, and that's because there's certain things, there's certain variables to this. Unfortunately, you can't predict the future and you just don't know. You can't unless you're looking at the right things. But remember, for manufacturers, all they have to do is sell through to dealers for the most part, right? They have some direct, but it's different because they're B2B. They're not B2C necessarily. So for us, we have to figure out how to move. So when we talk about, well, is Star Wars not doing as good as this? I would say, yeah, Star Wars is doing fine because Stern has sold the Star Wars, right? Stern has sold the LEs to the dealers, to the distributors. Like they've made their money, right? They've sold the premiums. They've sold the pros. I think a lot of people forget about that. When you see inventory sitting at a dealer, well, that's because the dealer has bought that game. They bought that game wholesale. So it's already, you know, the manufacturers already made their money. But, yeah, I don't know. I think what's going to be very interesting, because people are going to definitely compare things really fast with Winchester and with Beetlejuice coming out. And Winchester, I don't know, maybe they could have done 600, but I think a lot of it is, you know, people knew that Dune could be a fun game based on the atmosphere, and they've really pushed the cinematic part of it. Right. But then you've got to consider brand recognition. Carl D'Angelo is known to pinball enthusiasts, i.e. pinball is known to people. That's a known commodity. So when you come out of the gate, because look what happened with Foo Fighters. Remember those L.E.'s? Yeah, they all sold out. Jack Danger, the designer. Yeah. And that was at 13,000. Those same price. That was two and a half years ago. The same price today that people are like, oh, that's too much. That was early 2023. So a lot of this is brand behind you. That's why Beetlejuice is going to do so well. Not only is it a great theme, not only is it priced to just move, not only is it underproduced because of the units, but Spooky has gotten their brand to be known. Like people are diehard Spooky fans, and that took over a decade to do, but that's exactly what they've done at this point. So there's a lot of power in that. Yeah, and reading the Winchester forums, I mean, there are people that now that, like they're a diehard Barrels of Fun fan. They're like, I don't care. Whatever the next game is, I'm in. It's momentum. Yeah. Momentum. Dune proved itself. They want to support that smaller manufacturer. Think of this, Joel. Think of this. Momentum, though. When Winchester sold out, what happened with Dune?
    108:00
    It upticked. Yeah. When Evil Dead sold out, what happened instantly was spooky. I mean, people started getting it on the list for the next game, right? Like, instantly. Instantly. There's so much about momentum. But granted, now, once, like, you know, and Jersey Jack realized this, right? Like, they realized momentum after what happened with Avatar. It was kind of so-so when it came out. What did Jack do at TPF? At a seminar. He was just all of a sudden, oh, by the way. Don't spend another dollar. Yeah. Don't spend another dollar until Harry Potter comes out. Everything in product and everything in business when you're dealing with new products coming out, new timelines and everything, it's all about momentum. So that's what we're seeing right now happen.
    108:50
    So where does Stern have momentum? And what I mean is Elwynn, there are a lot of people that are like, I'm going to buy every Elwynn game. I have full faith in Elwynn. with that said, there are still Kong LEs available, right? They're out there. Are they available at Stern? Not at Stern. Stern sold them. Then Stern sold them out.
    109:14
    Okay. Well, you know what I mean? At the end of the day, the dealers and the distributors, they have to market. They have to hustle. They've got to sell the game. I mean, that's just how it is. Now, if that game was still at Stern, right, and Stern was inventorying that game, then there would be a lot of concern then. Then I'd be wondering, like, let's say they come out with 1,000 LEs and there's still 200 of them sitting at the factory because dealers didn't buy them.
    109:43
    Now we're having a different conversation. And I think we've talked about this before. At some point there has to be a breaking point for the dealers, though, right? Good on Stern for getting them all out the door. But if the backup is now dealer inventory where it just sits there, there's got to be a point where the dealers are like, we can't take anymore. Yeah, that's a real thing because when you look at the dynamics of today, think how many manufacturers there are that are producing great pinball machines.
    110:17
    They're not producing average pinball machines at this point to the end consumer because all that matters is, even those of us in the industry, we could criticize every machine left and right, but at the end of the day, it just matters. Did it sell, and are people having fun that bought it? And we can say that they are with Barrels of Fun stuff. We can say that they are with a lot of the Stern games. We can say that they are with the Jersey Jack games, and we can say that they are with the Spooky games. So when we look at those core four that's here, right, I think you're going to see it just happen more and more because what happens when manufacturing capability scales up with these other companies? And they start releasing two games a year.
    110:57
    Like, there's going to be a lot. Where are you currently having fun in pinball? I'm not. He's like, I'm not. Let me point this out, too, Tom, because I think we played this also. Have you ever played a game for 18 hours? Oh, my God, Expo.
    111:22
    Multimorphic. Princess Pride was fun. Portal was fun. Portal's awesome. There's a lot of people upping their game across the board. Portal was awesome. Cactus Canyon, Pulp Fiction. Fun games from CGC. Jared and I talked about that a lot on our drive home from Expo. And I was like, all right, Jared. He played Dune when he was there. He played Winchester. He played more Kong. Because that was one thing that was really cool. Jared and I commentated for Tom for a few hours. Had a blast. Always love doing that. Thank you. And you brought me a diet, too, which was awesome. I kept him hydrated, yes. And I loved it. We really have. But it really is so eye-opening when you have all those sterns sitting out there. And we commentated for three-plus hours. And you know what games we commentated on? It's all Elwins. You tournament players, you pick. It was Jurassic Park, Godzilla, Iron Maiden, Jaws, Kong. outside of that, outside of those games, what else did we commentate on? No, yeah, you definitely commented on Metallica because I picked Metallica. And I think somebody picked a Star Wars, Force, Fall of the Empire, I think. But that's it. Like, it's like, that's it. Everybody else, it's just like, oh, we're doing Kong again. Oh, we're doing this. It's like, clearly, Elwynn's doing well. But I don't know. I was just asking, yeah, where are you? And I'll ask you too, Travis, where are you currently having fun in pinball? Because where Jared and I swapped, or not swapped, but our conversation coming home was like, he's like, dude, I'm just loving these. I'm loving spooky games. I'm loving barrels of fun games right now, like Portal. I was like, okay, you've got $11,000. You can buy Evil Dead or you can buy Dune. You could buy Portal. You could get into a P3 and buy a Portal. Or you can buy Kong Ellie. You know, like, where are you at? And in his mind, he's like, dude, those are all really good options. Like, really good options. As they always say, competition's a good thing. Oh, and Harry Potter. Harry Potter also, yeah. Like, there's so many good games out there. That little game over there by Jersey Jack. Yeah. The little Harry Potter game. We even play Avatar games over there. We want everybody to have good games. Yeah. But Portal is legit. But Portal was – playing that, we had – what is it, Steven Silverman or whatever, like, explaining the game, showing us what to do. Oh, yeah. Steven's a good guy. And it's such a unique experience, like, to see Jared's face light up when some of the different – like, that game, Portal is done so well on that system because of where the ball can come up. But it's – I know. I mean, I'm in a position – I'm like, dude, do I want to commit to a P3? I portals by far the most tempting proposal to committing to a P3. I think, too, we're in such interesting times that you see the rise of YouTube. You see the rise of content creators. You see the rise of just people getting their opinions out there. And these designers, the coders, the manufacturers, everybody can get feedback in a very rapid manner. Yeah. And that allows them to pivot for future and reiterate, right, for future projects and all that. And I think we're going to see that keep getting driven forward. So that's what fascinates me the most, that I almost feel like just in these past 10 years or so, we've really seen that change go that direction. And we kind of talked about this, Joel, back when Godzilla came out, that I was wondering what would happen because this layout is so unique, so fun, And I remember we were on a stream. We were talking about how Godzilla will end up being the number one pin of all time. Like, we just knew it right then and there. Yep. And I always wondered, would people going into the future take that as inspiration for either their designs or how they want to do rules? And I feel like you see the DNA start to spread out more and more between these companies and even certain things they're doing. Like, I wonder if some of the spooky DNA will get out there elsewhere. I wonder if some of the things Jersey Jack does, what does that DNA do? Like, who knows, right? So I'm always curious about that. And that's why I think no matter what, always just be excited about new pinball. Like, you may not like all of it. You may not agree with all of it. But I think each one has a legit reason to exist in the ecosystem. And you can find fun points. Each one. Tom has a lot to find behind them. Oh, well, Tom's definitional fun. We already know that. But 2025 has been a killer year. Like, honestly, I think Twippy voting and stuff is going to be really hard. Like, so many good games. So many good games. But I do want you guys to answer that question. Where are you currently finding fun? It's supposed to be open-ended. I'm all about audience participation.
    116:18
    Leave a comment. If you're watching YouTube, leave a comment. Where are you currently finding fun in pinball? Because I'm curious. Where's your fun, Tom? When I say that, what stands out to you? Like what was the first thought of that's fun? That's what I've experienced recently that was fun in pinball.
    116:35
    I'm still thinking about it. I don't know. I mean, are we talking about – just go ahead. Go ahead, Tom. Tom knows it now. I mean, I have fun playing the new games. I have fun interacting with people at shows and tournaments and things like that. I mean, you know, that's my life. I will – maybe this is – my answer is when I think of the last few weeks, what were the funnest moments I've had in pinball? The Jedi ball saver on this game. It brings me so much joy every single time I see that ball whoop, fly out. That is fun to me. now that I got my X-Men dialed in just seeing that ball whiz around the playfield that is fun to me and then Dune, I spelled my Dune letters I got to the wizard mode of course immediately I lost it but since then that I did it on stream playing that first wizard mode is so atmospheric the sound package, everything that is such a fun moment to me that's what I'm saying, right now that is what's fun to me in pinball Dynamic shots, seeing the ball do cool stuff in super atmospheric modes. That's what I'm loving about pinball. So you know what's interesting about what you're saying? It's that I hope manufacturers are listening to this because this is what a lot of people feel. And the reason why I hope they're listening to this is because when people see pinball, this is what they first think of. So if you lead with this, if that's your brand identity, that these are your games and that's what you're leading with, more people, I guarantee you, are going to want your products a lot more because if you emphasize those parts, because that's what's priority for you, Joel, right? And Tom, I'm sure you get games and when you play, that's all you're focused on is to find fun shots, fun moments. And yeah, I just, I think sometimes we get away from that, right? When we look at the art and we look at, you know, the packaging and the toppers and stuff like that, and that's all cool and all, But at the end of the day, you have to play the game. So it's like, what is the cool parts in the game that's fun to play?
    118:55
    That's what I'm always looking for. I completely agree. I will tell you, I will admit, I mean, I've packed up Dune, but I took the glass off and I went ahead. I threw the ball around to see what the second wizard mode is. Awesome. And then I threw the ball around and saw what the third wizard mode is. I'll tell you what, that third wizard mode is incredible. and the way it ends is insane. It's like that moment-feeling atmospheric light show. It's absurd. Do they have an option to play that? Not yet. I heard. I saw on the Pinside Forum they're about to add the fourth one, and I think they're going to make it so that you will be able to select the mode so that way people will get to experience the different ones that are in the game. Like at the start button. Well, maybe if they make a challenge. They need to put that at the start button. Sure, challenge modes would be great, but I think the idea is once you've spelled Dune and you hit the scoop to start a mini-wizard mode, you actually select which one you're doing. I think that's what they're suggesting. Now, right now, they are in somewhat of a chronological order. I was just going to say that, aren't I? Yeah. Chronological. Yeah, but I don't know. I just, they're impressive. That's all I'm saying. Travis, are you having fun in pinball, or you hate it because it's your job now?
    120:10
    No, I have fun every day. Like, I have legitimately I have the dream job because I'm going to get sat on an air hockey table the other day. I know that really got you going. Oh, my God. Yeah, we need to post that picture. Today I put together a bubble hockey table. And those are actually a bit. Those are fun. There's the fun right there. No, like, I wake up. I love working in the pinball industry just because I love what I do. I love helping people understand the game of pinball. I love introducing the game of pinball to people. I love being able to talk to people in pinball, like getting to hang out with you guys. This is my poker night, right? Like this is where I get to have the guys time. And it just so happens to be there's a couple other people that listen to our knucklehead conversation, you know? So like I enjoy all that. That's why no matter what, it's a fun thing. It's for me personally, the whole thing is fun. Yeah, there's some stress about it, but it's like, okay, if a game's not selling so well, okay, that's on me. I got to figure that out. But then there's going to always be the next product. Figure it out from there. Keep going, keep going. That's the way I look at it. I never want to, like, I'll critique certain manufacturers, just give my opinion. But at the end of the day, it's on me to figure the shit out and get it moving to the next person and teach them about pinball and try to spread it out more. So I think there's a lot of it with that, that I find fun. And I just, seeing somebody like today, prime example of it, took a pinball. So there's two people I ran into today that got their first pinball machines today. We took a Willy Wonka to a house, and the very first one they've ever owned, and this lady was just over the moon. She was so ecstatic. And so seeing something like that, and she was just like, yeah, we're going to get a Jaws soon. I can't wait to get that. And now we're even thinking about our third pinball machine. I'm like, okay, you guys are going down the rabbit hole. Let's go. Yeah, exactly. And then there was another guy that came in with his son-in-law. And sweetheart of a man, he was in there and he's like, my son-in-law has been great. I want to give him some for his birthday. And he's like, he really likes. Yeah, I know, right? I'm like, I wish my father-in-law would do that for me. Shout out to Big Steve. I'm sure he's listening to this. Yeah.
    122:33
    But he played Star Wars. the newest one and he just absolutely loved it and that's what I mean it's like it's interesting seeing people that are just now finding out about pinball and they're not quite jaded yet they don't quite understand like oh you're supposed to not like the art you know oh you're supposed to hate that sound or you're supposed to not like that layout show them the magnetic ball save because that probably would have that would have I got real excited it's so cool I'm telling you that's where I find my fun I have more fun doing that or teaching people like doing the YouTube videos and doing tutorials than I do actually playing in tournaments like I just enjoy that stuff more or just sitting down and having a beer with you guys that's fun also I'll just go ahead and cover it I mean all three of us were at Expo my brother was there as well and thank you to everybody that came and said hi and it's always humbling and always surprising to know how many people either watch our streams watch our channels or listen to this podcast. And yeah, we do it because we love it. We've done it 69 episodes. We're going to continue doing this. We have a blast. This is a ton of fun. 69 more. How many would that be?
    123:47
    138. Okay, yeah. That number. I should have let you do it. I should have let you say it. Joel, I don't know if you've noticed. I have so much cough medicine in me right now. I'm trying not to cough on the mic. But honestly, for everybody that did that, it's awesome. We love what we're doing, and we love that it's bringing joy, apparently. People are enjoying this.
    124:13
    Yeah, love the support. Obviously, thanks for everybody on Patreon that supports us here or anybody that spots Super Bowl Swag. It's always funny to see that every month that we sell a T-shirt or two. Thank you. Thank you for all the kind words that I expo and all the support for this podcast because it's just the three of us having a conversation. That's all we're doing.
    124:31
    Was there anything else you guys wanted to talk about? Because believe it or not, the reason I'm sitting this way is because Star Wars is leaving tomorrow, and I've got to take this glass off and start throwing this ball around and make a tutorial. So I still have to do that tonight. So I'm going to reset up my streaming rate. I love how we talked about the rules, and you're like, ah. And then you're like, I'm going to do a tutorial on it tonight. I'm not going to do a tutorial. I have full faith in Ray. Like, this game, I still recommend this over Guardians. I'm excited to see the direction that this is going to go because there's only going to be more added to it. We need to figure out what is on. So we know what is on your agenda. What's on Tom's agenda this week? What's going on in Tom Graff's world?
    125:16
    The D82 tournament is going well. The Lumberjack Johnny tournament. There's a big classics tournament on Saturday at District 82. So that'll be fun.
    125:31
    It's all about the score. There are no modes. I did. You guys were doing some, we're in a chat with Carl D'Angelo and I was like, you guys were talking about score jackpots, points, all that. And that's what it was. Tom, you're like, yeah, I got X-Men. I got to figure out how to play Sentinel multiple again, or save the city multiple. I was like, Oh, you hit every shot. The progress in the upper right. He's like, I know that. I just need to know where the jackpots are and how to do this. I was like, all right, that's right. You're looking for points. Nobody cares about that. So I'm like, Carl, are people going to enjoy your game without focusing on points? And he just said, of course. That's all you're going to do.
    126:10
    So, yeah, it's good stuff. I like that, Joel. You should have just wrote to him like, Carl, on a scale of shitty to 10, tell me how good is your game? Just be honest with me. Are you going to make it fun? Here's the new meta. You come out with a game. There's no score. No score. We talked about that. I think like 40 podcasts ago, we talked about something about that. It just played a game, and it just had the moments in it. Right? Where you don't even know what the – And they have that now in Sterns. I think they have that on Rush, right? Where you can just have the concert, and that's it? Like on the LCD? You know the original Super Mario Brothers on NES? It has a score. Who cares? Who cares about the score? Four-year-old me didn't. My ass was dying to Goombas over and over again. Hell yeah. You're just trying to beat the levels. But pinball can be that, though, if you're just going for wizard modes. Yeah. Or you're just trying to. I've done that. I'm like, I don't give a crap about the score. I just want to get to the end so I can get to crash the gate. Exactly. Joel, Tom and I did that at Stern Pro Circuit Final. You don't give a shit about the score. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. You know what? The only score that I've really ever cared about is on TNA. TNA, that score, the last digit. Really? Shows you how many reactors you've blown up. Is that why you cared about it? Yeah. I don't care about any other digits. I care about that last digit. If it's a four, I destroyed four reactors. That's the score. Like, I don't care about score. I mean, I say that, but if I go to a bar and I see they have Insider Connected and they have a board set up, and I'm like, wait, that's all I have to do to get my name on that board? You care about score now? Okay. But in my household, believe it or not, maybe I'm a chump, but I'm paying for the extra Insider Connected level. I got grandfathered in, so it's only $40 a month. But I'm not going to have four-liter boards. You say $40 a month, or is that $40 a year? Year.
    128:13
    Okay. I was about to say, $40 a month, Joel. $40 a year. I'm not going to have a home leaderboard because I'll tell you what, nobody else in this household cares about score, so I don't need to see my name at the top of the board. You know, when I was watching Game 7 of the World Series, I'm like, you know, I don't really care about the score. That's a different, completely different game, Tom. Now, they're not out there playing baseball by themselves. Obviously, they're competing against another team. I'm in the basement playing by myself. But what motivates me is how do I get deeper in the game? How do I experience that moment again? That's what I care about. Yeah, so you're still on the next level. Think about the most basic level that we talked about earlier to where there's people out there. No, no, no, you're not. I'm saying the most basic level is people that just play the game, that just shoot shots and really have no general idea. They just know that it's lighting up differently.
    129:11
    There's so many of them. And I don't mean it to be rude, but I went to, when I first got in the hobby, there was a local collector that had nine machines. I thought that was crazy that this guy would have nine machines. He invited me. He had a whole party. Only a psychopath would have that many machines. He had a party. Listen to me. Listen to me one second. He admitted he didn't know any of the rules. He doesn't care. That's fine. You're streaming tomorrow, right? Sure am. You streaming Star Wars? I'm streaming Munsters, baby. Are you putting a bounty on Munsters? Here's what I want you to do, and you have to do this. You have to do this. This is a demand by Tom Graff. I'm listening. Whatever you need, Tom. I want you to cover up the score and stream the whole time.
    129:58
    No, I'm being dead serious. There's no way you can do that. I'm being dead serious. Joel doesn't have the balls to do that. Put your money where your mouth is. I want you to cover me. You think that's going to bother me? But you can't cover Jared's score, and he gets the gloat about winning every game. That he beats me on every one. Yes. Okay. What's sad is in my head, I'm already thinking, how would I do that in OBS? Oh, just throw a block over it. But the problem is at the end of every game, obviously the score shows up in the middle. Oh, that's true. Are you still blocking the score during the game? Take a color border and just put it right over it. It's easy to do. I just don't. I don't know. That's me. There's no way. Joel will not do that. I think Zach would just flip out. Why is your game covered that way? It'd be flipping out pinball It'd be flipping tables, yeah Okay Was there anything else you guys want to talk about tonight? I will tell you what though, Joel You're lucky Tom's suggesting this on Munsters Because if there's ever going to be one game Where it's perfectly fine To cover up your score, it's Munsters Because you're basically just trying to get to that wizard mode Once or twice throughout the game So I think I have a very clear objective with Munsters. And I want a full report on the next podcast on the depth of the game. Are you going to block the score?
    131:23
    Should I block the score? Sure. Okay. Why not? Are you going to do it the whole entire time? I think it would be funny and, like, just get the chat's reaction to it.
    131:33
    You're not going to let him tell the chat what he's doing? He's just going to purposely just have it blocked? I think that would be funny.
    131:41
    Hey, why is your score covered? And you just ignore it the whole time? Like, what are you talking about? I leave Jared's uncovered. That's the only way. You could just say, like, score is beyond me. I don't need the score.
    131:59
    Score is below me. I just go for wizard modes. Yes. I think, let's see if you can watch this on YouTube. Do you care about score? Do you care? Leave a comment. Let us know. I don't. No, I know. I mean, I know there's people that don't care about the score, and that's fine. Yeah. You know what I wish you and Jared would do?
    132:22
    Here's how, Tom, we could really cover up score. I wish you and Jared would have, and I'd watch the shit out of this. You guys have a competition night towards pin golf. Objective pin golf. I just want Zach to bring Joel and EM to play. Oh, gosh. I don't care about the score. Then I do care about it. Clearly, if I was Joel, Joel could Discord in Bob Matthews. It'd be awesome. And then – I don't know. So, yes. The – yeah. It's – I will say anytime that Zach is part of the stream and he sets bounties to do giveaways, the bounties – they're always pin golf related. They're always achievement based. He's never been like, oh, if you break $10 million, you get – you know, we'll do a giveaway. No. It's like if you can get that mini wizard mode, if you can complete this task, you know, you can do – if you can save your ball, the one-handed prophecy mode. I've had pinball tournaments where score wasn't a thing. It was you've got to do this with Jets. But even the tournament you just played, the Stern Pro Circuit. I was just going to say that, the Stern Pro Circuit. Yep. That's the last time we'll ever talk about that godforsaken tournament again.
    133:40
    No, I mean, I do. And, you know, Josh had asked me, and I told him straight out, I said, I like it. Even though I got smashed, I liked it. I think ZMAC did. ZMAC beat Raymond. They can win in any format is what I'm hearing. Yeah.
    133:59
    Talon's going to, yeah, they're too good. They're way too good. All right. Okay. Let's plug this. Let's plug it up. We'll start with you, Tom. I do triple drain like Travis.
    134:15
    Yes, you do, and you do it well. Better than most. Yeah. Fox Asia Pinball. Check out his stuff on Super Bowl Swag. Check him out on Twitch. Check him out on all the socials. And I mean all of them. Just check me out.
    134:32
    Oh yeah. Go ahead, Travis. Oh baby. I also do Triple Drain with Tom and occasionally Joel. Joel's on here too. He's great. And then YouTube at the Pinball Company. You guys can watch that. See me be a fool over there doing tutorials and stuff like that. I can't wait for your next one, dude. I cannot. It's going to be lit. He's heading in a whole new direction. Just some. I'm so excited for him. Just some. I've had so many people asking me for this. I'm just like gritting through my teeth. I felt like Kent Murphy bunning. Now that's you guys probably don't know that. That's like a deep, deep cut.
    135:13
    We'll see. Is there a score involved in bunning? Well, this video would have been out today, too, but I had to redo some things because it actually got clipped for copyright. And I'm like, okay, that's weird.
    135:33
    Which one was it? Mando. Yeah. Interesting. Well, I'll just go outside. There's no hiding it. Like, I'm challenging Joel for his glass-off world championship. Ah. I mean, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. That's what I've heard. So, you know, when you think, hey, how do you do a tutorial well, get that glass off. Get the glass off. But we're not telling you rules, though. But I'm not telling them rules. It's a strategy. It's pure strategy. No, it's needed because I've had people turn to me and they're like, okay, I'm in a tournament. How do I score the most points? I'm like, and you're asking Joel? I don't know. Or they're like, you know this game. Where's the animal? I'm like, I don't know. Name and shame these people, Joel. We need to know what souls need saving. They need better options is what I'm saying. Joel, you definitely have rules of knowledge. I've learned. Yeah. I like, yeah. I enjoy pinball, and I enjoy learning the rules, and I'm, it's, yeah. I love it. I love, I have huge respect for game designers and whatnot because it's hard to make these fun, and they're fun. Joel, I know we give you shit all the time, but I will tell the listeners that Joel knows his stuff. Just ignore that he thought there was no upper flipper on Foo Fighters and all that stuff. I do know there's an upper flipper on Led Zeppelin because I had that shot dialed in.
    137:06
    Unlike Travis. Yeah, and I know when's the time to buy a game, and that's when you can buy an X-Men. Right, Tom? That's right Yep Alright Travel No he won't Okay And yes My idea of flipping out Pinball stream Every Wednesday night With my brother We also have some Tutorials there So check out the Soon to be Star Wars Fall of the Empire Tutorial Hopefully I'm going to Film that Literally right now And yeah Check all of our Stuff out on We got some Merch on Zazzle Silver Ball Swag Do the Beat the Score Submit some stuff To Stern's beat the score. I think that's a really cool thing to potentially have your own username as a badge. I think it's a really cool thing that they're doing there. And hopefully Spooky has an amazing reveal in a few days and look forward to Beetlejuice. And yeah, I know we'll definitely record before the end of the year to try to round out our thoughts on the year and all that fun stuff. But yeah, really appreciate all the support. Appreciate all the people that said hi at Expo. Appreciate all the people that listened.
    138:13
    Like always, Tom, you get the last words. Don't reject anybody like the Death Star.