Welcome to the Great British Pinball Podcast, and here are your hosts Scott Rundell and Neil McRae. Holy extra episode, Batman. I bet you weren't expecting to see us. Some of you will be celebrating that we're here. some of you be wishing not those goons again i thought i had two weeks before i'd hear from them scott it is a special edition of the great british pinball podcast it is how are you scott i'm great mate yeah i'm mindful i watched back our video before right i must have some sort of form of adhd or something i need to stop touching things because i'll click it and i'll i could hear it I could hear me pop in a bloody glue stick. And I thought anybody listening to this is going to be like, can you stop fiddling with that fucking thing? I promise you, my hands are like demons. They will sit here by the keyboard. Right above your head, like that. For the duration of this show. No one said anything, but I can guarantee it will wound me up. So I'm not going to do anything. If you bang the table, you know, people hear that as well. Yeah. My wife does it all the time, right? She goes, I call it itchy legs. You know, you do that with your foot. Yeah. Keep jogging the screen. Absolutely, yeah. Hi, I'm Neil McRae. I'm joined in this special edition as always. By Scott Rundle. Welcome, everybody, to the special edition. And it's been a hell of a week in pinball, I have to say. Quick news for me. Have I bought anything? I don't think so. Well, you must have bought an X-Men. I bought an X-Men, but... Small purchase. we'll get to X-Men what else have I something else I've bought, oh my John Wick arrived, woohoo oh wow okay, last year's news, great it's in this it's actually in the garage, I haven't even unboxed it do yourself a favour, just send it back it's not worth playing anyway I played it again, I was in the US which obviously we'll get into this right, but I will say shortly just now I mean, Stern right Stella Job of X-Men but when you look at the previous games at the same price tag now you're like where is my value for money that's what i'm thinking personally yeah okay i think that's i don't know if i know the answer to that question yeah i think look scott you as a buyer you're allowed to have your buyer's intent absolutely questions right that's and and this is the difference for us as a podcast. We actually buy games, and between us, quite a good amount of games, right? I've spent way too much money on Bimble recently, and I shouldn't be. Probably more games than we should. But look, let's just get into X-Men. Please, I'm dying to. So look, and I am... So I was in Chicago last week for Papa 21, which we'll come back to which is a great event but we'll come back to it and I just thought you know what, this new game's out I'm going to I'm just going to ping them an email and say hey I'm in town, open your doors I demand it, no I didn't say that I thought about saying that but I thought I just pictured you banging on the gates you bastard no not at all I emailed Seth and said said, hey, Seth, I'm in town. Here's a chance to have a chat. I buy games. We've got games on location. I run the club. I run events. I'm kind of a unique customer in that I do all of those things. Let's have a chat. And also, can I play your new game? So he replied, almost replied, he said, Neil, we'd love to have you come in. Amazing. Which was, I have to say, fair play to Seth. If I was doing the middle of a product launch and somebody emailed me, oh, Neil, we want to come and see you, I'd be like, no, probably not the best time. I don't know. I think it's a, you know, I very much was sensitive to the fact that there's a lot going on in a launch. They've got press, they've got licensors, they've got production staff. you know, very conscious of that. So when he said yes, I was actually surprised, but I was giddy as hell. And, you know, then he pinged on the time, and they said, yeah, look, this is good time for us. And, you know, all was good. So I was kind of like, oh, I want to tell everyone. I bet. I mean, look, even when you told me, I was like, I just had to tell no one. Only one I told was my wife, which is safe bet, because she doesn't talk to anybody in the pinball community. So, yeah, it was super exciting. I mean, the fact that you've got to try it before everyone else, really, it's really cool. Yeah, and so I went down there on Thursday morning. So I got into Chicago Wednesday afternoon. I went to the Papa venue, helped them set up a little bit, did a few things for them then. Thursday morning, met with Mark Wehner, who is, as I understand it, is in charge of all the kind of mechanical development. He's also a car nut like me. So Mark turns up in this amazing 1977 blue Porsche 911. I mean, you could hear this thing. It was nuts. And he goes, hey, Neil, you're here. You're early. I was early only because I didn't want to be late. Well, and also in Chicago, well, it's kind of suburbs of Chicago, Chicago land, you know, traffic, whatever. I, you know, I just, I went probably a long, like Waze was saying it'll take 10 minutes, something and maybe it'll be 20. So I went a bit earlier. Anyway, we were chatting. I think I've met Mark once before, but we were chatting about cars. And actually the thing I got from Mark, he's kind of a mechanical genius if something's mechanical he's kind of into it so cars he's got a he's got a car kind of set of cars that are just stunning and very much excuse me one of the things I picked up whilst I was in Chicago was a cold, apologies you're going to hear a bit of sneezing and coughing pinball fans, but let's try and get through this. Anyway, Mark, great guy, knows his shit about technical stuff, has worked on tons of games. His son Nick works at Stern as a game tester and I met with Nick as well. So yeah, we go in into U Factory. There's lots going on at the Stern Factory. They're gearing up for Pinball Expo. I think if you're going to the Stern Factory tour in as part of Pinball Expo, the first thing I'm going to say, you're in for a treat. They are doing a lot to make it a big kind of gig. That's cool. They're fixing things in the building. They moved in this building, I think, in a hurry. They're putting things right. They never told me that. That's just the sense I got. Anyway, I meet with Seth, Jack, and Mark. And, you know, Seth's telling me about, you know, we kind of get right into it. And he's talking about, you know, I said, look, I'm a bozo customer here. I do events. I've got games at home. I've got games in our club. I travel across the world and play pinball everywhere. You know, how can I help you guys? Well, you know, have you got questions for me? Have you got things that you need to know? And, you know, they asked me some questions and also told me some stuff like, you know, the thing I got from Seth was he's definitely got a customer-centric mindset. Okay. You know, if we're doing something, what does it mean for the customer? That came out, I mean, and I've met Seth a couple of times. Give me an example. So, you know, we were talking about Insider Connected, and, you know, that kind of led us in to talk about the menu system on a game. And he says, look, that menu system is terrible. We want to make it easier. They'd made a ton of the Jurassic Park home games. They made a change to that game so you can put the balls in without taking the glass off. Oh, really? yeah now i that to me you know as a as a hardcore pinball i was like well but actually let me tell you taking glass off in a location or at home yes oh it's scary shit man well the location especially when you've got people around and all that yeah so 100 so they've been you know look how can we make this more user-friendly and and and also the end user not the operator or the distributor but the actual end user um which which you know historically and pinball has not been at the forefront of thinking i would suggest um right there wrongly even though weirdly isn't it i forget everyone argues those statistics of where the sales are now in terms of operators versus let's just call them collectors um some say 50 50 some say 70 30 in favor of collectors to operators where do you think it sits i mean i think in the us it's hard to call because of so many barcades now. It wouldn't surprise me if in the US it was something like 50-50. That would not surprise me with operators still being a big part of sales. In the UK, it's like I buy more than any operator in the UK. It's probably 90-10 would be my guess. And I would say probably similar in the whole of Europe. Although the share might be different, but I think the overall pie is smaller in Europe. But growing. We're seeing more pinball locations. Pinball Heaven announced a gig with the N64 guys where he's supplying them with games which is great news. It's a hard one to call market size and also you've got to remember it's a discretionary cash hobby. People have got money to burn, they'll spend it If times are tight, the first thing that gets cut are things like pinball and the things that don't require you to... It just makes me wonder, as you say, if they are seeing that kind of 50-50 split, even in the US, that should make them more user-centric. Well, there's no question. They announced this deal through Costco where they're selling the Jurassic Park home game. There's a ton of them ready to be shipped out. They've manufactured... I heard they changed away from the MDF play field back to an original. Yeah, so I honestly don't know. We didn't talk much about it. But, you know, so what I got from Seth was, look, there are things that we want to do to make it easier for users to use the games, right? Yeah. One of them is on the home editions making it easier to put the balls in. We're not taking that glass out and there's, you know, the risk of the glass. But also just makes it easier to get the game up and running. and built. The second thing he talked about was the menu system. And I did remind him of and actually unfortunately George Gomez couldn't be there. You know, a personal thing. He had to be there. He actually pinged me and said, sorry, I'm not going to be there. And he said he apologised. My friends even messaged you, to be honest. No, nothing to apologise for, George. You're busy. But, you know, he wasn't there. And George is such a great guy. I learned a lot about pinball just watching some of George's talks. And the thing I reminded Seth and the team about is, look, the menu system, great. If you're going to improve it, awesome. That's brilliant. Well, no one's going to say that's a bad idea. But you'll be forgiven for a crap menu system. You won't be forgiven for a crap pinball experience. So I reminded of the George Gomez, I've said this on the podcast before, in the game, what's the ball and flippers? and that's the thing to focus on. People will put up with a janky menu system for a bit and they've improved bits of it with Insider Connected, but I get a sense that's something that they're working on in the background. They didn't say it specifically, but he said that's something we want to improve. Probably come with a Spike 3 release, I imagine, anyway. If Spike 3, and actually I didn't even talk about Spike 3, I didn't even ask. X-Men could be a Spike 3 game, I don't know, I didn't ask. I'd be surprised if it was As a pinball player, I don't give a shit I want the game to play If it's Spike 3, Spike 400 If the game's great, I don't care And that's the point I'm making Which is It's great if these things have An improvement for customers Of course The biggest improvement we want is a better game Yeah That's a good segue then Let's talk about X-Men I was only there for a couple of hours. I didn't want... I mean, I could have stayed there for probably as long as I wanted, but I felt kind of... I didn't want them... I didn't want to... These guys have got things to do, and in the space of a couple of days they'd feed up some time for me. So I didn't want to take the piss or anything. But I also... I wanted them to get as much value out of me being there as I was going to get out of playing this game, right? So, So, yeah, we went into – Stern have got, like, the room that they stream from. It looks like a mini arcade or mini barcade. It's a lovely little room. It's got all their accessories and awards and games in it. And they had the game in there. I predominantly played the LE. Okay. So they had the pro there for you to try as well? Yeah. Okay. And I played the LE And Basically Jack Who was there You know he was super excited to show In fact he said to me Neil you're the first non-starring Person to play the game which I was like Cool Not that I cared about that I just wanted To play it And I said look guys if I Don't play this now The first time I'll play it is probably when my LE arrives or or if that arrives before expo or play at expo right but more often than not for us you know here in europe the first time we're playing games is when they get delivered quite often you know yeah or it's like you know lots of people were playing the whole site of isn't it played sight unseen really it is just i mean lots of people hope the game doesn't suck yeah lots of people were playing you know the games at uh pin fest like elton john you know i played that a year ago but it was the first time people were playing it was at Pinfest so anyway they basically said just dive in Neil so hit the start button, plunge the ball and just started to play and I was probably kind of under kind of prepared for playing the game but the first thing I noticed about it right away in playing the game was there was a lot of shots in my mind I could see a lot of shots Sure Right And I started flipping the ball And look, I'm not a great player. I'm okay. If I spend a lot of time practicing, I can play good on a game. Yeah. So I'm trying to learn how to play and the stuff going on the screen. Are you allowed to talk about the game itself? you don't have to say a thing but I just wanted to understand the premise of the game what's the goal? what they said to me was, Neil, use your own judgement that's why I wanted me to give them value as well as me get value from them because maybe six months from now, hey I'm in Chicago can I pop round? I want them to say, yeah Neil, come round but people also know me as I don't take a lot of bullshit right and so i'm playing the game and the first thing you notice about the game is yeah it looks it looks busy from the from the photos right yeah but actually it's it's more open than it looks right and that's because jack has moved the game kind of sideways well yeah you've got a non-italian bomb as they call it yeah by the way just for everyone who's not understanding of that because i didn't actually know what the hell that meant when people started talking to me about it very very short like a brief description basically a game was shipped i think it was like i'm trying to remember it was some bally game you would know it you have it i'm sure you was one of your ones with the lion on the back glass oh uh is it pandora paragon yeah i think the story goes apparently it was paragon was being shipped to some Italian operator and before it went out they said oh could you do something about the the design so that it follows a kind of a in-lane out-lane slingshot approach but a lot of people saying they like to be able to stage the ball and they have a cigarette or they have a drink and then apparently that's how the story came out it was just they called that design that standard stern layout that we've seen for forever where you've got the in-lane out-lane slingshot Italian bottom I didn't know that so that was something new for me so yeah I was just letting people know that little bit of trivia in case they didn't know again can't be 100% on that it's just what I've read I do know that there was something done to Paragon to make it more like an Italian bottom I don't know if that's I don't know if it was the first one but the Italian bottom is the Italian bottom is as you said two flippers, outlanes and a hole in the middle right that's what we've come to realise is their pinball standard, right? Yeah. So you go back to what Jack's done and his design. Yeah, so he's moved it along such that the plunge lane is part of the outlane drain. Right? It's a stroke of genius in my view. Because it's given him a load of space on the other side of the game. So if you soft plunge, you drain pretty much right away. I mean, you... So what happens when you press the button? Just say, like, the laser... It launches the ball, basically. Right, it's a safe option, sort of thing. Yeah, so... And the ball... And honestly, you know, my brain's kind of fizzled with trying to take a lot in at the same time. Sure. But the game feels a lot wider than it looks. The audio's great. I just gotta... I couldn't tell you... I couldn't sing a tune or tell you anything about the audio other than it was there and I could hear it and it was... And it kind of... Did it try and capture, and again, you may not be able to say, did it try and capture the original 90s kind of intro X-Men? Or was its own take on it? Or was it completely different? It was definitely, so I haven't watched a whole lot of X-Men, what is it, 92, 82, or what is it called? 97. X-Men 97 is the sequel. I've watched a couple of them. I don't know it that well. What I do know is I used to read X-Men comics, right? Sure. This feels like an X-Men comic. No question about it, right? Now, the video, and again, look, the code, I'm sure, again, I didn't talk about code with them because I know it's a process they go through, and I've been through it with them often enough. The code is early. No shit, right? It's a new game. But it had animations. It had effects. There was light shows. But I'm sure by default I know there's more to come on it. what I got from the code was there's modes, you select the modes and you play the mode, right? That's probably my big takeaway from the code Does it feel a little bit like Avengers where you have to assemble a team, or is it not like that? I honestly don't know the answer to that question What I got from the code was it felt like Deadpool Interesting, okay The ball's locked somewhere it gives you a choice of modes you pick a mode you play right okay i didn't get deep into the modes one because i'm a crap player and two because i just didn't have time and what i wanted to explore were the shots right sure yeah because because it's hard the thing that you experience in pinball are the shots right you don't experience the video screen well you do but you're not it's not you can experience the main feature on youtube right yeah or on the stream but what i wanted to get a feel for was the shots holy shit scott the shots are unbelievable in this game this is what you're telling me on thursday you hit a shot i was i was like oh my fucking god i was like you hit a shot and the ball goes that's what i thought was i wondered if that was just being played up for the video or No. When you captured that experience. That's good to know. Every shot has got this insane ball path to it. It's just, it's mental. I was like, and also I'm like, where the F did that go? And I actually had to step around the game to lose and say, my God, how did he do that? That's exactly what I love about old games, where sometimes you just cannot predict where the hell the ball's going to go. That's why I love subways and that. That's why it was very much like classic. That's why it feels like to me, and in the best way, I'm not trying to insult Stern at all here, what they feel like they've captured for me is a Bally's, Williams-era game. I think, yeah, I mean, there's definitely elements of that. There's elements of other games, Gottlieb and stuff like that. But, you know, when I was looking at it, Jack, and it caught me at the eye, and I've known Jack for, I don't know, since 2016. I met him at Expo in 2016. He was really friendly. He helped my wife with something in pinball. He's such a positive, friendly guy. He was watching for my reactions. Love it. And he was loving this because again, this was someone brand new to the game. I'd never seen it before. And Paul's going this way and he's like, he wants to tell me what to do but he also wants me to explore it a little bit, right? I get that. I'm playing and I was getting all these shots. The flow, look, I love Steve Ritchie. He's one of my favorite designers, right? Sure. He's known as the king of flow. I think there's a challenger to the king, the crown. I genuinely think, and look, there's definitely, you know, things that I'm sure Jack has been influenced by but in terms of flow I look at High Speed 2 Getaway the Getaway and the ball paths on that with the thing it's just cool it feels like Jack's tried to there's only one of them in the Supercharger thing I forget what it's called there's only one of them in that game but Jack's like created 20 of them in the game because there's so many of these different paths I'm desperate to ask you, how did they sort out that ball lock by the left ramp as it feeds in, everyone says it's a wire or something it's a little finger it's a little finger I thought they'd magnetised the ramp or something I looked and thought, crikey that's gonna if they'd magnetized it i could just see the game going on fire i just it's so hard to do it's a tiny finger that just grabs a hold of the ball it's freaking invisible though you have to look for it mate that's crazy clever ingenuity it does look like a magic trick doesn't it it's like oh it's hovering it's like oh that's cool and this is the thing they told me it was a finger because i was looking at thinking i think that magnet's cool like no no it's a finger and he showed it to me. Crazy. And I was like, oh, my God. It is so cool. And they made a conversation about, you know, this is the thing that makes pinball different from everywhere else because you didn't just buy that off shelf. You know, you had to invent that whole thing. You had to fap that, yeah. And so, you know, I'm hitting these shots and then Jackson hit this shot here. And actually it's one of the more tougher shots, at least for me. It might not be for other players. but then there's kind of two ways of getting that kind of loop that takes you to the danger zone oh yeah um and i'd got one of them and i got in there i should have gotten there pretty early and i'm and you know that feels like a great little platform for these kind of danger moments again i'm focused on you know did you find the danger zone did you find it like really scary going in there going this is like i'm going to enter a bull drain situation or did you feel actually this is pretty safe I can make the shot out I was so hyped about being there playing this that my normal brain functions had stopped Scott I just kind of I was trying to you know I just wanted to have a decent game and feel that I had you know had played this game well but there's two ways into that or at least I think there's two ways there's probably more but there's two ways I kind of there's this kind of shortcut route and there's a longer way sure and then and then there's this one thing that just blew my mind um i hit the ball up a ramp it goes to this finger and the flinger flicks it back and it comes down the ramp but it comes to the sentinel hand finger blocks it and then flicked it and then flicks it back and it comes down the ramp but it's just a simple lock mechanism it's just like it's just like literally flick and it and it's it works so well i was like wow and and you know it's something you know in pinball have you ever seen something deliberately kick the ball back down the ramp no i mean the only thing i can think of is freddie's hand yeah the gottlieb era sort of thing and and there's elements of that but yeah and but the thing is is again the the geometry is done so that actually that's not gonna you know you you need to be alive for it but it's not gonna screw you it's not gonna go straight down the which I thought that was awesome. And actually, I tried to do it again. I couldn't hit the freaking shot. Do you not feel, though, like, this is, to me, I think when I listen to you talk about Godzilla in the past, or any other game that Stern's made, or any J.J.P. game for that matter, this is the first game, I feel, that they've actually gone and created some magic behind the game. Do you know, you go, have they done that? how have they done this that to me is really like cool to be honest it's it's it's like it reinvigorates your interest in the game in pinball in general to me i think that's a i think that's a fair observation scott i i i am you know if i look at my games right now here um you know what what is similar to that yeah and actually that level of ingenuity if you see what i'm saying i'm not taking away from the building because the building in godzilla is is very cool but you kind of know it you kind of know how it works right yeah you could see how it worked and actually you know probably the closest to that is the tk lock and stranger things right which true yeah hasn't been hasn't been great as a mech right it's a bit flaky right yeah this one sounds like it was working straight away there was no all the glitches i mean that there was no uh issues with any of the game mechs uh i mean like the game you know they did say that it's a prototype right it's not a production model which again is normal for Stern but there was no weird ball sticking or the game got confused or lost a ball which some manufacturers put games out like that into production so again this worked as you'd expect it just the way the ball went and you're trying to, I was just trying to map it in my brain. If I need to, you know, if I want the ball to be here, which shot am I hitting to get it there? That's cool. To me, already I can feel like this game is going to be one of those games where people discover new ways to play it. Yeah. Just purely on discovering it, getting better with it. You see what I'm saying? 100%. And then, you know, and then I can also see all sorts of kind of cool insider connected stuff being linked up with it um i could see some challenge modes you know that that would be different you know i don't know if they're going to do this i didn't i didn't speak to him about it's just my kind of my brain started thinking what else would i add to that when i you know when i when i left the the the floor um so yeah you know i must have played i don't know for about an hour um wow they lay a whole hour that's yeah and and was that like split time between the LE and the Pro? I predominantly played the LE. They were kind of keen for me to play it. It's a game I'm buying, frankly. Yeah, of course, but it's always interesting to see. For people who are going to be buying the Pro, which you know... Look, I would say on the Pro, you're not going to lose any gameplay factors. You know, and actually, the one thing that was cool one mech that was actually really really cool was this captive ball kind of three dimensional captive ball the beast lab but I was hitting that thinking oh that's an excellent shot because it has such an impact on the play field in terms of movement captive ball you hit it and you something flattens but you can't really see much of it whereas this is kind of like a skeleton It's like all the skin off the belt. You can see the physics of it, right? And for me, I was like, oh, wow, that's really cool. And I wanted to hit it a few more times. And that's the thing, which is, you know, every time I hit a shot, I was learning something about the game. And it's not, I can't think of a shot that was, you know, a shot that I'd seen in another game that's what I'm thinking there's a lot in this game and I go back to this value that you're getting now in the game, this is what made me go because I said to you ages back, I'm done with Noon Box as soon as you buy it it's like, you've tanked the value I think, to me this one doesn't matter so much because I'm willing to bank that this game will become the new number one, purely based on the fact that it's got so much in it. It's got like, I thought it was two magnets, but obviously it seems like it's one but that still cool And then obviously it got so much in it like the destructible ramp You haven even touched on that yet That what I mean It so crazy It like there so much in it Even the head coming up We haven talked about that yet Yeah, I mean, the head comes up and you hit it and it fires the ball back at you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I'll be honest with you, Scott. Some of this is a bit of a blur to me because I was like, there's so many things happening. I can imagine. That's what I mean. It's cool. Credit to them. I cannot believe that after, because I always thought in my head, right, it's Keith Elwin. he's going to have the bigger bomb, he always will, they're not going to give this kind of stuff to Jack. And Jack, when he does his game, it'll be a nice game, but it'll be a bit like Venom. Yeah. It'll probably be by, you know, but he's completely, like, blown this one out of the water for me. I think that there's an over-focus on bomb. Maybe. Everyone thinks there's a number. I'm not convinced there's a number. I think there's, like, you know, how fun is this game going to be, which means how many will we sell, which means, okay, we kind of think it's going to be this. But do I think – I'll tell you what I thought was interesting, right, and it's just listening to other people in the community. Yeah. Would you agree that X-Men's a niche? No. No, I wouldn't either. But for some reason, that phrase has been coined around. To me, X-Men is probably one of the – It's a community in the UK community. Yeah, I'm not going to say it. Yeah, but they're all idiots. Okay. But anyway, I was just taken back by the fact that someone would call X-Men niche, because in my head, it's like the one kind of franchise that completely traverses any generation. Like, you can be Gen Z, you can be a millennial, you can be Boomer, it doesn't matter. No. I think, well, Gen X at least. Gen X, 100%. Yeah. So, I mean, I know X-Men in Edinburgh. It wasn't X-Men all the way back in the 70s and 50s, wasn't it? It's been around for a long time. I remember, actually, let me just Google that. But when I was a kid, September 1963 was when it first came out, right? Again, another Stan Lee, I mean, the guy's just a genius, right? He is, isn't he? Oh, yes, he was, rest in peace. He was, yeah, absolutely. He gave us some phenomenal, I know there's a lot of Marvel overload, but I just find it insanely entertaining. I saw the Wolverine – sorry, Wolverine – Deadpool movie. Yeah, yeah. Epic movie. They've smashed it. It's so good, right? Sure. But, look, X-Men, I used to – when I was a kid, I lived in Edinburgh. There was a shop called the Science Fiction Bookshop, and I would go there and sit on the floor and read the comics. I couldn't afford to buy them. Right. and most of the folks around there I would say I think comic books of that era, the boomers not many I think Gen X is where it really rolls up so when people say oh X-Men's niche I'm going to say they're in the boomer category I don't know that for sure it's not a criticism or anything I just think even in Gen X I mean I used to at school I'd read comic books and I'd get and everyone was into football like ah look at that geek with these comics right i used to get the first trip to me now all these fuckers that took the piss out of me are queuing up to watch the movies right um it kind of it is weird how geekdom has become more mainstream isn't it it's glorious from my perspective but uh i even even my mom would be like you know what you're wasting your money on this shit for right um yeah yeah i get that you know so it's kind of it's kind of weird. I'm genuinely excited to get this game. I am. I mean, I'll be honest with you. I was like, you know, hey guys, how do I get this game home right now? How quickly can I get one? Can I air freight it? You know, I want this game badly. Very badly. You must be super privileged, though, to try that. I feel it's very cool. Look, I you know, it's hard to be thankful enough Stern, you know, they're a big company they took, you know, their CEO and some of their key employees took a few hours out to spend time with me. As you say, we're not sponsored, we're not sat here being evangelists of the brand. I think for them to take time out of their busy schedule to let you play it for a full hour that's amazing. I mean, I'll be honest with you, like I said, with their launch of the game. The last thing they want is the distraction of managing someone at their factory. That's the thing. It is a factory. It's not like an office. Actually, on the line was Rush, if anyone's interested. They were making rushes. That factory is just... There's something about it. Scott, you've got to go there because once you've been to that factory, it just changes your perspective. There's something... There's a coolness about that place. I bet, yeah. I just can't explain it. I would love to have gone to Expo this year, to be honest. Yeah, and look, next year, start planning now, right? Yeah, yeah. The other thing I'd say is, again, this is a hard thing to explain, but I have experienced something that I've experienced. I worked for a company where there's companies where you work there and there's so much political bullshit, people trying to score points against each other, blah, blah, blah. You know, I've worked in those companies. In fact, most of the companies I've worked in have been like that. Sure. But there was one company I worked for where we had this kind of joint accountability or union on here's what we've got to do. And I worked there for five years, and it was the best five years of my career. It was just insanely good because everyone was trying to help each other be successful. and when I was in Stern and I've been there a few times and I've sensed this and sensed it when I was there last week Stern is all about and again maybe this is slightly me being naive as an outsider but what I got was these guys are doing really cool stuff right now and they're all pushing each other to win and be successful and Jack told me when he had this idea for doing this sort of game And, you know, the first person he had to convince was Gary, Gary Stern. And, you know, Gary's been through. Just so I understand it then, he wasn't assigned X-Men. He requested it. No, no, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. So forget the title. Okay. Okay. I think he had already been given the title, but I don't honestly know that for sure. Right. So don't read into that. But what he said to me was, and he said it took me a year to build this game. He said, well, I went to Gary and said, I want to do something different. And he took Gary through it, and Gary gave him the green light. And, you know, look, Gary Stern has been through the ringer on the ups and downs of the arcade industry, right? Sure, yeah. And, you know, he said, yeah, okay, Jack, go for it. And, you know, Jack, this is his third game, right? Well, he's completely, as I say, gone against the standard, so to speak, as in terms of the layout in the bottom third. Yeah, not just Stern, but every game, right? You know, it's different to Williams. It's different to Jersey Jack. It's different to... That's what I mean. He's just gone, yeah, I'm going to do something completely different. And it's weird, actually. when you think about jjp they've always been the ones i have always seen as the guys that have gone we're going to make something different to everyone else we're going to put more on of the world under the glass than anyone else right yeah but i would say that they've put the wall that we all expect under the glass maybe not the wall we don't expect yeah well i'll give you that absolutely because with what jack has done here at least in my book is i mean i mean like i'll talk a little bit about what i'm doing at the moment right because i'm making my own homebrew i've kind of leaked you know i've done a teaser around here about it and people were like oh is it going to be a re-theme it's not it's a homebrew and i've been toying around with visual pinball and a whole slew of i've gone down a complete rabbit hole of the homebrew community is it's dark down there i can tell you there's there's so many different paths you can go with all of it and it's always led to me to go down italian bottom i've never seen anything other different because to me that's just the logical approach for a pinball machine i've seen the kind of early em stuff where it just felt like it was cheating you if you know i mean i just i honestly felt that that design was the standard and it should be it's the golden standard but jack's gone and said i could do something different and i like that i really am excited about that that to me is like i could never have done that because i just one i don't have the experience but two i just admire him in a business sense, taking that kind of risk. And it's a big investment. You think, you know, how big is the team that build a pinball machine? It's got to be a million dollars worth of salaries, right? Sure. 10, 20 people for a year. So, look, fair play to Stern, fair play. And, Jack, well done for going out on a limb. Yeah, absolutely. And also, everyone that was there, Mark, Nick, Wiese, and everyone, Zach, that were all there. Again, thank you for putting up with me for a couple of hours. It was great to be there. And, you know, I genuinely think people are going to play this game and really like it. I hope so. And, you know, I hope they sell a gazillion of them because it's, for me, like I say, I came away thinking I've never played a pinball machine like that. You know, that was my, I was sitting in my car in the Steyr and Karn Park thinking, you know, how do I, I was just thinking, how am I going to, how am I going to share this? Because my mind's forgotten about it as much as it remembers because it was like, and I, you know, I said. Oh, I did forget to ask you. This feels important. I don't think people will be buying it to ask this. How did it feel about the flipper gap? Did that feel like being a problem? Yeah, no. So there's actually a post there. There's a centre post, right? Yes. It's hard to see the centre post, right? Okay. For me, I'm a centre post fan. I love them. Sure. My favourite games Meteor Nineball Stars These are older games but they've all got a centre post One of my other favourite games Spiderman, it's got a centre post Jackpot, it's got a centre post Centre post is another thing in pinball You have to learn to work with I'm used to it I trust the centre post I know what it's going to do So when there's a ball hurtling towards the centre post Bang, it goes off you control it, you take a shot I love the centre post I'm excited about there being a centre post Did it come into a lot of use do you think when you were playing it? No and it doesn't because if you're hitting the centre post a lot you're draining a lot is my That's what I'm trying to get at, did the game feel like it was trying to correct a geometry issue by having the centre post there? No, it was very Jack told me one of the first things he put into the game was the center post at the start. Oh, okay. So he did it regardless of design. So he has designed the game around that shape, right? Sure, sure. And, again, I love the center post. If you want to learn how to play a center post game, come to Pinball Republic and play nine ball all day, right? You will learn very quickly how it works, when it works, when to flip, when not to flip. And there is a difference to that, right? if you love pinball, you'll love to learn that difference. And most people that have been in pinball for a while will have experienced this at some stage in their pinball career. But, again, you know, Jack put out a video yesterday, I think, of some of the different things that they tested in the 3D pinball platform. I don't know what it's called, but he put that video out. Is that their digital software where he's trying out the game before he's made a whitewood? I would love having access to that. I think that's a publicly available thing, though. I don't think it's the same thing. If it is, it's... I found some... Again, I don't want to detract from what we're discussing here, but I've spoke to a guy that also is making a piece of software that he says isn't ready yet to go to market, and he's been able to emulate an X-Men play, you know, the game, pretty much one-to-one in his software, and I had wondered if Jack had used that. he said no they've got their own software so i don't know whether that's true or not but again as i say like i'd love it would make sense i use visual pinball and yeah it's clunky jack was using before he joined stern he was doing some home he definitely did because i watched one of his videos yeah yeah anyway i am i mean look if they've developed some code that allows them to do builds like that that saves them money and time then i'm all for it basically I'm just envious of it it appears to be pretty powerful I just want to draw a line under X-Men and we'll move on because I'm conscious of time I did want to ask you one more thing about the flippers because people will ask it did you feel it was as we already discussed it's offset did you feel like you needed to adjust your gameplay style not at all in fact I didn't even know they were I didn't even notice that they were offset until about half an hour in. I mean, it just doesn't register as an issue at all. Cool. I just wondered if you were sat there hunched to the right of the game or anything like that. No, not at all. I mean, I just felt that it just worked. I didn't feel like I mean, from a playing point of view, I didn't feel I was playing this game different to any other pinball machine. But this was a different pinball machine, no question about it, right? So from that perspective, I kind of feel that they've definitely went out to build something different, and I think they've succeeded. I would personally, on this game, I mean, I'm an X-Men fan, so theme works for me big time. you know I'd be pushing the premium button on this game but if you don't and you get the pro I don't think you're going to miss out massively on the game just maybe some of the kind of the walled under glass moments might not be there for you you know of all the games that I've seen where there's a choice between pro and premium this one for me really ticks that premium box more than anything else I'm a premium buyer, hands up right, but I look at Foo Fighters, I look at Deadpool I look at Godzilla, I look at Venom I look at Bond actually Jaws is the only one where I think premium is definitely the choice to make but this one if you can, and these things aren't cheap I would go the whole hog for the premium have i think i think you will i mean it was a no-brainer for me i think i think you won't regret it i love toys yeah i mean this is the thing if you like toys again it a no What else do I want to add I think that probably it on X What's your thoughts on the artwork? The artwork is stunning. Actually, the back glass for the LE is mind-blowing. The mirrorization of it is on another level. I noticed that right away. It's the first time I've walked up to a back glass and thought, holy shit you know i just look like godzilla it's mirror but like well whatever um i honestly will say now i think this is the most excited i've seen you about a pinball machine in a while i am yeah i mean i i uh i think there's been a lot of you know the last six months for pinball there's been a lot of negativity about prices are high and the sales are shit and people are losing money and sure um and look those things are real right i'm not dismissing them um I put a lot of work into the club. We got the UK Open coming. I've been at a great tournament, which we'll talk about in a minute. I went to play this game, and I came out buzzing. I came out. I didn't want to leave. I want to play this game all freaking day. I want to open the boot in my car and stick it in the boot and go home with it. That is how I felt. And I can't remember the last time I won in a game so badly. Walking Dead, right, which is my favorite game. 2014 or something isn't it? I was desperate, I ordered one I played it, I wanted one I couldn't get one second hand I ordered one brand new, premium it arrived on the 27th of December and I was like playing it all through New Year I just, it was so I watched Bone's tutorial every day for about 6 months that I wanted this game so badly and this isn't FOMO, this is I want this game I like this game, I want this game I think Stern have really moved the needle and look I hope it sets we've got Avatar coming I hope that moves the needle as much as Stern have moved it we'll see because I think that's what people want and Pinball's been great at this over it's 200 odd years it's reinvented itself it's done stuff new and look I was playing John Wick I was playing Jaws, those are great games as well, no question about it but I came away from that experience thinking I really like this and I want to play it more I also had some caution there are things about this game that the code isn't finished yet right? and I played it for an hour. I normally like to play games for a few days before I take a call on them, but my view right now is I want this game, I want it tomorrow, hurry up and send it to me. Let's move on. Let's move on. Actually, why was I in Chicago? I was in Chicago for Papa 21. It was a memorial tournament for Lyman Sheets. The whole team smashed it. It was in a location called Interium, which is just actually not far from where Stern are. It's not far from the airport, near where Expo's held. They set up a whole tournament. And, you know, I do the UK Open, so I know how hard that is. Andy Bagwell, Penny, Josh Sharpe. There's so many people involved in it. Jermaine, Ruthanne Bagwell. They just totally smashed it. The games were lovely to play. I mean, I had a real bad bout of jet lag. I think this cold is what's been driving it. Sure. I couldn't get my hands on the ball. I think another day of qualifying I would have got there, but it was excellent. There was a load of great people there. It was a laugh. Hanging out with Tom Graff of Fox City Pinball. Did a bit of commentating. Ray Day won the main it was great to see he was Ray just felt like a man on a mission the whole weekend he wanted to win I saw him leaving early one night I didn't say anything but I thought he wants to win this he's going home early and getting a good night's sleep so he can come back and win it Stephanie won the ladies she played amazingly well and Derek who won Derek who runs Yegpin he won the Classics again, played really well. The Classics were all EMs. Yeah, right. Which was excellent, but also it was excellent to start with, but I thought, basically, to qualify, you have to roll the game. What qualifies as a Classic? Good question. Anything that's kind of older than DMD, I think, these days, typically. Okay, so Solid State and EM, basically. Yeah, it's supposed to be an EM. It was great to play these EMs. Some of them were new to me, some of them I played before, but when you have to roll the game and effectively all you're doing is hitting the same shot over and over and over and over again, it starts to get a bit kind of grindy. That's the part I always wondered with EMs. If there's a certain shot that you can make repetitively safely and everything else is like danger zone, does it not just become a little bit boring watching someone if you had to commentate on it which I did twice commentating on Zach McCarty hitting the same shot over and over and over again in old Chicago it's not good TV let me tell you it was heavy lifting it's great that he can do that, it's an amazing skill but it's kind of boring I'm afraid it's like playing an RPG where you're trying to get up to level 12 and you're level one, you know, it is painful. But the event was amazing. They smashed it. I'm definitely going back next year, three minutes in the same time, location, et cetera. It was great to see Ray Day win it. They gave away two pinball machines in a raffle. I think they must have, I think Andy said something like they raised close to 20 grand for the charity, which is a suicide awareness charity which was phenomenal and it's on stream if you want to watch it it's on Fox City Pinball's Twitch channel you can go watch it I think I caught it over the weekend if I'm honest with you I pinged it a little bit on my Facebook for people to tune in especially when I was commentating and the vibe around Lyman you know rest in peace was really cool, people talking about their Lyman stories and there was a lot of photos and just discussion about how great Lyman was and how much we miss him. So Penny and Andy and Josh, who I think were the kind of the geniuses of this, well done, you knocked it out of the park, and I'm looking forward to next year. Let's move on from that. We're going to kind of blast through a few topics. So Avatar, you know, it's coming. Probably haven't got time to talk about it now, so we'll wait until the reveal. Yeah, I think that's only fair, right? We'll give them a full crack when it's actually being revealed Actually, the designer of Avatar was at the event I think he said it was the 12th that they're revealing it Not far off then, yeah A couple of days, looking forward to that Stumbler working with Dutch Pinball, well done Davey Congratulations Yeah, look, hopefully that means that there's some cool stuff coming out of Dutch Pinball make sure you get paid before you send them anything with what's happened with Haggis I'm not saying Dutch is in the same boat at all but they've had their tumultuous times right and Davey we love you mate even if you are from down under Stumbler is great these lollipop boards are phenomenal I'll just put the new Godzilla topper bit in. Oh, that upgrades it? Yeah, that Paul Boucher put together. It's absolutely epic. So well done to Dave on that. A huge congrats to Kevin and Lorraine who got married today. Kevin, a great friend of the podcast and a public fan. He's actually one of the guys. He's actually the guy. I played his Walking Dead all night at an event. I literally hogged it and then decided I needed to buy one. Great guy, good pinball player. They got married today, so many congratulations. And then a very quick talk about Pinball Brothers. They've got a new distributor. It seems to be in fashion to change one's distributor this week. I'm not a fan of that organization. I think you've made that pretty clear build quality but I know you rate them Scott I think I've got a different window into or perspective let's say of the manufacturer right I mean for me every time I've spoken with them they've been very transparent they've been very helpful they've always sent parts direct to me quickly expedited it makes it sound like I've had problems with them but in all fairness that was due to the fact I was sold a prototype. Yeah. Which we won't go into. It's a whole story over there. If you want to look it up, look it up on Pinball Info or Pinside. It's all over there. But anyway, the version I've got at the moment, which was a belief in Lee Riley, that's been pretty flawless. I've not had a single problem with it. And I know I imagine some people do have a lot of problems with the game. But look, for me, bottom line of it is, I mean, it's weird. Some people say, oh, I wish Alien was made by another company. I'll be honest with you, if another company had made this, i.e. Stern, back in the days of when they just did a stripped down game, I wouldn't want them to have made it. Now I would. If Jack was making it, absolutely. Yeah, it would look amazing now. But back then... Back when they were building it, yeah. I can see why folks would have that view. Much like people say, oh, we want these guys to get this license, these guys get that license. Actually, I would say and we'll see what Dutch comes out with next. I look across the industry and everyone's kind of putting the same prices out, kind of similar bombs. The hard reality is to build something costs this amount of money, whether you're Stern, Jersey Jack or some other organization. You've got to make enough money to be able to invest in the next thing and I think if I want a game to be mass produced it's Stern all the way they are the kings for the reason and they've got the best factory they've got probably the best experience and the best team to be honest to go behind it I feel like what I have liked about the competition side of it, the competitive side is that because there are other businesses in the market that I think Stern have stepped up I genuinely think that's a positive thing that there's been they've looked at what other people are doing in the market and whether they've been doing it better or not is arguable but they've seen that and gone okay we need to make something different something that will reignite the market and i definitely think they've done it with x-men yeah so i agree with you except i don't think stern pay a huge amount of attention to what others are doing i think they play their own game for you for everyone's sake i think they shouldn't Otherwise, that's a form of arrogance, right? I think anyone should always look at it. Even if you're at the top, let's say you were Microsoft, right? Yeah. Would you turn around and just ignore all your competitors because you'd be like, well, we're the kings. No, but I think what you do do is you listen to your customers, right? If a customer says, I want X, Y, and Z, then you give it to them. Yeah. And I think that obviously picks up some of the competitive tension because customers will ask for stuff they've seen elsewhere, right? Yes. That's what I mean. That is symptomatic then, isn't it? I can tell you, right, when I'm building something or when I'm doing something in the industry I'm in, I'm not paying any attention to my competition. You know why? Because I want to be better than them. Understandable. Understandable. But again, I look at, for instance, Alice in Wonderland and I'll be honest with you, that was damn hard for me to choose between that or X-Men. I think what made me choose X-Men over Alice is that I want The game will arrive sometime this year. And I feel like, you know, I'm not saying Dutch can't do it, but that's what explains to me that. It's like Chicago games, right? You'll get the game you want, but maybe not when you want it. Yeah, exactly. And I think that is a, you know, if you're tying up a wedge of cash, you know, you want to get it quick. Anyway, Luke, I think on that bombshell, we'll press the pause button. Scott, it's always been a pleasure What's coming up The UK Open In three weeks time Looking super exciting Still actually Post Papa and a few other things Some interest for people to come But there's only like 20 tickets left So if you are wanting to come Now's the time to sign up And Pinball Republic Going from strength to strength We've been pretty busy I'm looking forward to being down there on Thursday Diane and team ran the first South East Pinball Leagues She's taken over She's done a great job Lots of positive feedback There's a lot going on in pinball Expo's coming up soon And there's a lot to be excited about We've got other game launches coming It's a great time to be in pinball This next few months I think is going to be Fantastic But before you make a call on whether you like a game or not, go play it. If you can. If you can. You haven't all got the luxury of VIP access to Stance Factory. I don't think I like it, but I haven't played it. Be honest about it. I look at John Wick as an example. That is a good game. I imagine it is. This is a terrible game. Yeah, look, I've played Venom and I do like it, but comparatively I'm going to have an X-Men any day of the week. I'm going to choose between one Marvel comic and another. Which gives Stern an interesting set of challenges as they develop and move forward. Definitely. Luke, once again, thanks to Stern for hosting me. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. We'll probably do a podcast. We might do a quick one ahead of the UK Open or we'll do one after. Yeah, we should, right? Because that would be a good time to discuss Avatar as well. Yeah, absolutely. maybe in a couple of weeks time try to do these monthly try to keep them around an hour, an hour and a half we're at about an hour and five minutes which I think is a good one but you know get out there, go visit locations put money into locations because they need the money you know learn enter a tournament have fun, go build a homebrew like Scott's doing, I'm excited about that because based on on Cyberpunk I'm thinking that's going to be fantastic because I know you'll put your heart and soul into it mate so good luck with that and we will see you soon and remember it's just pinball catch you guys later bye bye