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The Money Shot

BlahCade Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 0m·analyzed·Sep 13, 2016
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Virtual vs physical pinball debate; Aerosmith Stern table rumored; Heighway designer criticizes TPA physics

Summary

Chris Frebus and Jared Morgan of Flippin' Out Podcast discuss virtual pinball competitiveness on Zen Studios tables, debate the hostile reception virtual pinball receives from physical pinball purists (including a Heighway Pinball designer's Twitter criticism), and explore rumors of an upcoming Stern Aerosmith pinball table. The hosts defend virtual pinball as complementary rather than competitive, while addressing operator accessibility and licensing challenges.

Key Claims

  • A Heighway Pinball lead game designer posted on Twitter criticizing The Pinball Arcade as 'complete garbage' with poor physics

    high confidence · Chris mentions the Twitter fit; states 'He's the lead game designer for Heighway Pinball'

  • Stern is releasing an Aerosmith pinball table (described as 'less of a rumor because apparently actual video of it exists')

    high confidence · Jared confirms: 'Aerosmith, you're correct. Aerosmith.' Chris notes 'actual video of it exists'

  • Medieval Madness original machines were commanding $18,000 before the reprint version at $8,000 was announced

    high confidence · Jared states: 'Medieval Madness was commanding 18 grand really?'

  • Most modern pinball tables are now produced for private collectors rather than arcade operators

    medium confidence · Sven: 'most pinball tables are nowadays produced for private owners rather than for arcades'; Chris agrees Stern's operator claims are questionable

  • Virtual pinball machines in arcade cabinets are not replacing physical pinball in commercial settings

    high confidence · Chris: 'no distributor is putting virtual pinball in their arcades except for maybe...but even he has said that there's no way it's going to replace the desire for physical pinball'

  • Stern Pinball Arcade has been released on Gear VR with AC/DC table available

    high confidence · Jared: 'they just released Stern Pinball Arcade on Gear VR, just released the AC/DC table'

  • Farsight announced Metallica and Star Trek tables coming to Stern Pinball Arcade 'later this fall'

    high confidence · Jared cites 'official announcement from Farsight, later this fall, quote-unquote'; hosts discuss timing (spring)

  • Google Cardboard VR is expected to be released by Google by end of year, potentially expanding VR pinball access

    medium confidence · Jared predicts: 'Google will be releasing Google Cardboard VR, and that will mean that VR and stuff will be available to people other than Samsung owners'

Notable Quotes

  • “I don't like TPA. I don't like... any virtual pinball at all. At least it wasn't exclusive.”

    Chris Frebus, paraphrasing Heighway designer @ N/A — Captures the blanket hostility from a commercial designer toward virtual pinball platforms

  • “Why is it that both can't exist? Why is it that there's a vocal faction that absolutely despises virtual pinball?”

    Chris Frebus @ N/A — Core question framing the virtual vs physical pinball debate

  • “I don't have three grand to lay down for an Oculus set... the mobile way of going for VR is arguably probably the way that VR is going to break into the market more.”

    Jared Morgan @ N/A — Identifies affordability as key barrier to VR pinball adoption

  • “someone like me who doesn't have the money would never buy a real pinball table. And I don't have any choice because there are almost no pinball tables in any bars available anymore.”

    Sven @ N/A — Highlights how virtual pinball fills accessibility gap for non-wealthy players

  • “Medieval Madness was commanding 18 grand then all of a sudden it's hey you can buy this brand new one for 8 grand and they were freaking out”

    Jared Morgan @ N/A — Example of collector anxiety over table reprints devaluing originals

  • “I think maybe it's got something to do with the fact that, well, if we had a virtual pinball machine, people can actually put these things in cabs now. And... this will actually be something that's closer to what I've been paying $8,000 or $9,000 for per machine. And that scares me”

    Sven @ N/A — Articulates fear that virtual pinball threatens exclusivity/status of physical machine ownership

  • “The guy who has the money because the 20-year-old or 30-year-old, maybe with small children, they can't afford those tables anyway. So it's clever to have this marketed towards 50 plus.”

    Sven @ N/A — Explains Stern's deliberate demographic targeting for premium music tables

Entities

Chris FrebuspersonJared MorganpersonSven (Ksenia)personHeighway PinballcompanyThe Pinball Arcade (TPA)productZen StudioscompanyStern PinballcompanyStern Pinball ArcadeproductAerosmithgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern's claim of producing for operators disputed; apparent shift toward premium collector-focused tiers (Batman '66 elite version) suggests primary revenue from home market

    medium · Chris: 'Stern will strenuously deny that...but they're releasing a super premium version of Batman '66 for their elite collectors'

  • ?

    community_signal: Collector backlash over Medieval Madness reprint devaluing $18k originals; exemplifies gatekeeping anxiety that reprints/digital options threaten exclusivity investment thesis

    high · Jared documents original $18k valuation vs new $8k competing product; hosts discuss broader collector mentality

  • ?

    community_signal: Hosts express frustration over inability to access current-era machines due to family obligations; identify gap in personal pinball history that virtual platforms partially address

    medium · Jared: 'I won't have that knowledge to call upon...And that really kind of frustrates me' (parent in same predicament)

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Pinside forum thread on VR pinball became 'vitriolic' with vocal faction absolutely despising virtual platforms; hosts characterize as gatekeeping behavior

    high · Chris: 'Pinside being Pinside, everybody went just completely vitriolic on virtual pinball and off the rails nuts about it'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts characterize Aerosmith table as 'lazy' and derivative licensing choice; concern that Stern prioritizes accessible demographic targeting over innovative design

    medium · Sven: 'that one just seems lazy to me'; discussion of licensing strategy as primary constraint on game selection

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.181

0:00
This is the Blockade Podcast with your hosts, Chris and Jared. You are listening to the Blockade Podcast. I'm your host, Shut Your Trap, a.k.a. Chris Frevis. Joining me as always, no, he's not. Never mind. Jared Morgan seems to be a little bit absent at the moment. I can't remember what his reason was, but whatever. Instead, we've got Sven, a.k.a. Ksenia, joining us.
0:52
Hi, you're from Germany again. Yes. Somebody, I believe it was Heretic. we used to have Drexclown, Bonzo come in all the time and then all of a sudden he disappeared from the face of the earth we don't know what happened to him, he didn't send us messages and then Heretic happened to speak with him and said we found a new German and what did he say about it? I don't know that there was a response necessarily about that okay I have him in my friend list yeah on Steam, but I'm not sure when I've seen him the last time.
1:34
Ah, well. Ages. Ages ago, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we've, as we said last week, we've been doing this fun little back and forth with Zen.
1:49
Yep. And you've decided in order to defeat me on tables, you're going to pick the tables that I least like to play.
1:59
Yeah, it's a good strategy. It's a terrible strategy. I love it. Because you went ahead and you posted a rather significantly better score on, I believe it was, Return of the Jedi than what you had had previously. It was either that or was it I think it was A New Hope. I can't remember which one. It was one or the other. anyway and then I hopped on and completely crushed it and so but you have posted a score on Star Wars Rider Assault that I for the life of me cannot even get I can't even get near my original high score let alone what score you posted on that. What in the world is your secret?

  • “I won't have that knowledge to call upon going, oh, yeah, I know how this plays, or I've played it before, or I've had some time on it. And that really kind of frustrates me.”

    Jared Morgan @ N/A — Personal concern about missing hands-on experience with current-era games due to family obligations

    • Medieval Madness (reprint)game
    AC/DCgame
    Metallicagame
    Star Trekgame
    Pinsideorganization
    Farsight Studioscompany
    Gear VRproduct
    Google Cardboard VRproduct
    Hereticperson
    Dr. John Cossonperson
    Rolling Stonesgame
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    America's Most Hauntedgame
  • $

    market_signal: Virtual pinball defended as accessibility gateway for non-wealthy players and geographic deserts lacking location machines; frames physical purist hostility as threatened exclusivity

    medium · Sven describes situation 'almost no pinball tables in any bars available anymore'; Chris questions 'what they're threatened by'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Music licensing now includes digital rights requirements; Stern negotiating with 8-9 simultaneous band licensors; artist focus primarily on royalties and record sales uplift

    medium · Chris: 'they've got like about eight or nine different licensing fingers out there'; discussion of digital clause inclusion in deals

  • $

    market_signal: Virtual pinball not replacing physical machines in arcade/location settings; distribution remains complementary not substitutional; FECs only allocate ~2% pinball in 20% non-redemption category

    high · Chris: 'no distributor is putting virtual pinball in their arcades'; Jared cites Coinbox operators reporting 80% redemption dominance

  • ?

    community_signal: Heighway Pinball lead designer publicly attacked virtual pinball physics on Twitter, signaling defensive posture from commercial manufacturers threatened by digital alternatives

    high · Chris confirms designer's identity and quotes twitter criticism; notes vested interest conflict

  • ?

    announcement: Stern Aerosmith pinball machine announced/confirmed with video evidence; positioned as targeting 50+ demographic via classic rock licensing

    high · Jared confirms with 'video of it exists'; hosts discuss demographic targeting and licensing strategy

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern Pinball Arcade adding Metallica and Star Trek tables via Farsight this fall; Google Cardboard VR expected end-of-year to expand mobile VR access

    high · Jared cites 'official announcement from Farsight'; discusses timing; notes Google Cardboard VR release expected

  • ?

    technology_signal: Stern Pinball Arcade launched on Gear VR (AC/DC available); signals shift toward mobile VR as primary virtual pinball distribution channel

    high · Jared: 'they just released Stern Pinball Arcade on Gear VR, just released the AC/DC table'

    • 2:40
    What are you doing on that table? Because it's such a grind of a table trying to get scores I mean like even doing the modes they don't score that much Yeah that's true What I do is, you're talking about the Starfighter, right? Yes. Yeah. There's this hole on top of the table up from the mission hole where you get the extra ball. Yes. Yes, and if you have collected the extra ball, and then you get another bonus or jackpot mode in there, and that's where I got the majority of points together with multi-ball after that. So you're not playing the modes for points, you're just hitting that, it's like an upper, upper ramp, just over and over and over again. Yeah, yeah. but to be brutally honest I have no clue about that table I don't know how to play the modes I've been figuring it out so essentially for those of you familiar with the Starfighter Assault table if you there's an upper flipper that you can activate a magnet on when you activate the magnet it captures the ball and then you can shoot that upper flipper into one of two lanes. First lane is your repair lane. If you do that, it'll go capture back on the magnet again. If you then shoot the lane right above that, it's like a short U-turn, it'll capture on a magnet there, and there's yet another upper flipper. And from there, you can either shoot this upper ramp that Sven's talking about. It's at the absolute tip-top of the table, and it's a sideways ramp. Or right below it is the mission hole. Now, the mission hole isn't immediately lit. You have to hit it once, kind of knock on the door, and then that'll light the mission hole. So you've got to catch the magnet catches the ball once more. You have to hit it yet again on that upper flip hole or upper lane, and then you flip it into the mission hole. That's the steps you've got to do just to get the stupid missions going. And then it's pick your missions. The first mission is relatively easy in that it's basically a video game. of Galaga. Yeah, yeah. With a few stupid asteroids hitting your way, it's not terribly difficult. No.
    5:22
    But that's only phase one of mission one. And then you start phase two. And it's the phase twos that I tend to have a lot of problems with. Me too. But it's more or less on that one.
    5:36
    I know most of the phases end up involving, you shooting looping lanes, either on the left side or the right side, whichever is lit, and just doing that ad nauseum, and then occasionally dropping the ball into the pop bumpers, which fire lasers at all the starfighters that are flying around, and if you shoot down enough of those in the proper amount of time, you wind up winning the mode.
    6:00
    That's the gist of almost every single one of the modes. sometimes in like the mission 2 I think it is a Star Destroyer parks on the left side of the yeah on the left side I'm not sure one other mode has that yeah and that's one of these things where it's like you've got to hit 5 lanes in order to disable the shields that are on or something the turrets that are on the Star Destroyer and then you hit the pop bumpers again and I it's all terribly confusing on that so yeah I get that I get what you're saying with it being really kind of weird I don't think I ever made the phase two of mission one oh I don't think I ever I ever finished that I always keep losing my ships. I believe I finished it once.
    7:06
    That's probably a bit about it. But yeah, that's why it's killing me, though, trying to figure out because a lot of the Star Wars tables, when you finish a mode, it's good for 10 to 20 million sometimes.
    7:23
    So it's a big bump. But whenever I've finished any of these modes, it's not gotten me very far at all.
    7:34
    So, I don't know. That's what I'm saying. Starfighter Assault, I was very curious how you were doing that well. And then you went ahead and you absolutely crushed Darth Vader. Hey, look who just joined us, too. Witness the crushing. Jared Morgan. G'day, guys. How's it going? Good. I thought you were not available, but apparently you can pop in for a brief moment. Well, no, it turns out that I was actually, we're going to go stay at the coast this weekend, but Zach's not feeling very well, so we decided not to actually stay up there. So here I am in Studio North Lakes.
    8:13
    So, yeah, how do you feel about Sven here just coming in and absolutely annihilating our Darth Vader scores? Yeah, kind of pwned us, didn't he? Terribly. I'm less concerned about his scores and more about some Vulcan scores oh dear what is interesting about it is at a certain point the score in the Zen tables are not counted on thousands or even 100 thousands they are all zero Have you seen that? No. No? Yeah. So if you get really high. Yeah, if you get really high, it seems like the rest is cut off. I don't know whether it's because of limitations of numbers there.
    9:11
    But let me quickly check the score of Sun Vulcan. because when I posted this, you can see the high score he has, and it's 13,938,000,000, and then six zeros. And the same was ranked two in my friend list. has 1,163,000,000 straight and the third one, 1,111,000,000.
    9:51
    So once you get to 1,000,000,000, it doesn't count anything below a million anymore. So you've got half a million. You've got just shy of 500 million on Darth Vader. I think I was at 160s or something like that. I don't know. It's not.
    10:17
    So what was the secret to doing that? Is it just a grinding and grinding and grinding, or did you find something? It's a grinding through all the modes, get as much out of the modes as possible. the multi balls are quite good for scoring keeping them alive is vital to this game yeah i see you get about a million per shot at least when i was playing i mean the little scores were popping up um it's like about a million per shot yeah sometimes three million and then then you have the shot from from the upper right flipper to the small ramp whether where you have the upper left flipper where you shoot to the base yeah the base yeah yeah and there's one mode if you activate this it's like like a countdown from I don't know 10 million downwards or whatever it is and if you can shoot that repeatedly because it's some kind of race shot you hit it the small ramp you hit the base frame and the ball returns again to the upper right clipper if you can do that you can easily get like 20 30 million in a few seconds Wow it's a pretty fast escalation of points I've actually I actually decided after me bragging on it last week that I go and check out the Loathe table. The Masters of the Force? Yeah, Masters of the Force. And actually just try and work out what's going on in the table. And I actually managed to squash some high scores on it. Yeah. And I definitely agree about the bricking ramps. They're very narrow entries. But I think once you get yourself dialed in, And it's one of those tables, I think, it's a little bit like Twilight Zone. If you've never seen it before, you walk up to it, you go, what is this? It looks like a hot mess.
    12:31
    But I think when you start playing it and you start getting the shots lined up and know where you need to shoot them from and all that, I think you can actually do okay at the game. It's just, I don't know, it just takes a bit of a warm-up, I think, to sort of get into the way the table's designed. because there's a shot there, there's some shots that just don't look obvious, yet they actually go to completely different places on the table, and they don't actually look like a shot, but they are actually a shot. You don't really know about them until you actually shoot them. And you go, oh, the ball can go up there. Cool, that's kind of sweet.
    13:05
    I think the most frustrating part of that table is just that jump ramp, but the jump ramp concept, trying to get the ball up to the upper play field and get it to land where you want. Like, to me, it's a little bit like the hole-in-one shot on No Good Gophers. It can be a bit random. It can be a bit random for me.
    13:23
    No, I agree. For me, with No Good Gophers, there is no aiming for the hole-in-one. It's just I'm just trying to get the ball up there. Yeah, that's right. Where it goes is anybody's guess. Yeah. I don't know how far I would have actually done the tuning for that because you know they would have had to put some sort of ball path or fixed route for the ball to travel and actually get into that shot. Because if it's not on the play field, it's not tracked physically, so they would have to put a rail, like an invisible rail, for it to get in there. So I think it's about shooting that exact point on the ramp, like the jump ramp, where they've engineered that particular thing to go, and then you'll be right. Did you manage to start any of the modes in Masters of the Force? Yeah, I did. I managed to fluke one.
    14:15
    Now, was it a light side mode or a dark side mode? It was a, I think it was a dark side mode. So you had to try and hit that narrow, narrow, weird gap ramp on the left side of the table to even get the cardboard cutouts to pop up.
    14:34
    Oh, no, no. I was battling Darth Maul, so it must have been the light side mode. Yeah, light side mode, not too terrible to start. Dark side mode, virtually impossible, because not only have I hit the ramp area, but then it's, I forget what they call it, it's like this quick return or something like that.
    14:53
    So the ball has to thread the needle, start going up the ramp and spiral up but then it has to also spiral up with enough force as to then get captured by the magnet And I was getting it with enough force to get up there but not close enough to the magnet where the magnet was catching it and then it would drop back down and cross the habit trails. And, again, massive amounts of frustration because it was like, I hit the shot.
    15:18
    You're thinking of TPA where you shoot anywhere near the ram and it goes and gets sucked up. Suck up the ram and you're fine. I don't know. I've learned that after playing in the tournament, our league tournament last week, that some people's gripes about tables, I realize that they've never touched the tables.
    15:42
    Because like Creature from the Black Lagoon, now the interesting thing, I've played probably five different machines of it in our league. not a single one of them plays anything remotely like TPA in terms of how the ball bounces.
    16:02
    In TPA, I do a ton of dead passes based off of the ball shooting around the loop, coming down, bouncing from one flipper to the next.
    16:13
    The real thing, you try and do that and it will never go the direction that it does in TPA, ever. It's very frustrating because I know I've got my patterns and whatever, and they don't apply to the real thing. That being said, everybody was complaining about the main ramp, saying that it's a vacuum ramp in TPA.
    16:33
    I was nailing the crap out of it with no problem whatsoever on this person's table that I had this time. There's been other times where it's been a bit rejecty, so I think a lot of it has to do with the slope of the table. Yeah, probably the strength of the flippers too, whether they're well-maintained or not. Exactly. so yeah I do kind of question a lot of people complain about actually you know what I'm going to shift we're going to shift away from the Zen talk and shift into this other bit of business that two different people have alerted me to one of them was I guess the I want to say the programmer for somebody involved with Highway Pinball went on a Twitter had a Twitter fit about Pinball Arcade Oh, great. Okay. And basically just called it just nothing but complete garbage and so not like real pinball and that it's just got problems abounding with the physics. It referred to something about electrocuting a frog's ass or something like that. I mean, that's how well the physics, I don't know, it was very, very odd. diatribe. This person sounds like they know a lot about physics when it comes to electrocuting a frog's ass.
    17:57
    There's more or less saying, hey, I don't like TPA. I don't like, and they didn't like any virtual pinball at all. At least it wasn't exclusive. Yes, no, it was across the board. It falls into that camp of, ah, here's yet another person who has access to real pinball machines probably within their own home. And again, the guy's a designer. I'm not sure if he's a designer. I want to say he was a programmer for Highway. Oh, look at that. He also has a vested interest in a company that happens to be producing a real-life pinball machine. Right, right. Wow.
    18:38
    He's the lead game designer for Highway Pinball. Okay, there you go. No, there's absolutely no invested interest in there whatsoever. No.
    18:47
    And what was the... He was complaining about... Basically, he said TPA, the only thing it's good for is on his mobile, on his iPad, so that he can review the rules. That's about the only credit that it'll give TPA. And my thing is, well, maybe if you didn't play it on an iPad, maybe if you played it on a PC with decent lighting, with the better everything that TVA can offer, plus using a proper controller instead of your thumbs,
    19:20
    maybe... You might actually think differently. Exactly. So then somebody else linked to me a thread that had started up on Pinside, and it was asking whether or not
    19:34
    VR pinball, so the Samsung VR, whether or not it is the death of pinball or helping pinball. And of course, Pinside being Pinside, everybody went just completely vitriolic on virtual pinball and off the rails nuts about it. And I sit there and I wonder, why is it that both can't exist? Why is it that there's a vocal faction that absolutely despises virtual pinball? You know, we love both. And we never say that physical pinball is in any way, shape, or form not superior to playing virtual pinball. I mean, about the only thing that can be said that virtual pinball has a one-up on is that it'll never break down. Well, that's right. Yes. and I think when virtual pinball was originally proposed, this is what attracted some arcade operators to the concept of it. They thought, well, if we can somehow make virtual pinball accessible in a traditional size cabinet but with some sort of screen dropped in it, this would actually mean we could offer 13 different tables in the same footprint as one table. which again I could understand then a pinball distributor being mad about that but the reality is that's not happening no distributor is putting virtual pinball in their arcades except for maybe that was on the show about the zen virtual pinball game maybe but even he has said that there's no way it's going to replace the desire for physical pinball. No, it's complementary too. It's not a substitute for it.
    21:33
    So I just find it interesting that there is that... I wonder what they're threatened by, I guess, is what my question is. Yeah, I don't know. It feels like they're threatened. Yeah, they're behaving in such a way and their responses suggest to me that they're afraid of it. And they were... The question is why? because anybody who is able to afford or is interested in pinball and can afford to play or to buy a table on its own, he will buy it. But someone like me who doesn't have the money would never buy a real pinball table. And I don't have any choice because there are almost no pinball tables in any bars available anymore. So you only can go to some pinball museums or if you're lucky and then find a bar, they still have it. I just learned from my son that he found a bar where there's Avatar and the Simpsons pinball party in the corner, but nobody keeps playing them. So, yeah. Yeah, it's rough. Yeah. You're right.
    23:01
    It's something for a big audience anymore. and I think it was already mentioned earlier, most pinball tables are nowadays produced for private owners rather than for arcades or anything. Well, you know, Stern will strenuously deny that and say, oh, you know, we're still making it for the operators, but, you know, they're releasing a super premium version of Batman 66 for their, like, elite collectors and elite people that were, you know, part of the journey. for 30 years, so I often wonder exactly how much they actually produce for operators. But that's their mission statement, I guess. Yeah, I don't think they purposely produce for operators. I think operators have become a symptom of the resurgence of pinball.
    23:59
    You know, they – because there certainly is more and more – it's picking up steam once again. And operators need that price point. They need that pro price point to be able to afford a Pymorin Shin because, you know, while they are gaining in popularity, they're not as popular as something like Street Fighter V or any of those sort of like very low footprint, high revenue earning stuff. And it's funny, you know, because I was listening to the Coinbox Pimble podcast the other day and these guys are actual hobbyist operators and they were saying that for most family entertainment centers that you see out there now, it's 80% redemption and then 20% other. Yeah. So the pinball within that 20% would be lucky in some places to get 2% if it's lucky. So out of all the redemption stuff you see in IK these days, you might be lucky to see one pinball machine in the collection.
    24:58
    So, you know, it's, I think in some ways, getting back to the original question about why these people are so adversarial about digital pinball, I just wonder if it has something to do with the exclusivity of owning a pinball machine. Yeah. The exclusivity of, you know, accessibility. Not being special enough anymore. Right. It's something to do with... Yeah, I think maybe it's got something to do with the fact that, well, if we had a virtual pinball machine, people can actually put these things in cabs now.
    25:28
    And, you know, this will actually be something that's closer to what I've been paying $8,000 or $9,000 for per machine. And that scares me because that means that it makes me feel less of a person because I don't have this big exclusive piece of entertainment furniture in my home anymore. Someone else can get an entry-level version of this. I really hope this is not the case and people are not defining themselves about having real pinball tables and getting this exclusivity away by virtual pinball because it's a completely different story. If that is the case, I would feel very sorry for them.
    26:17
    The same thing that happens is happening, though, with the Medieval Madness redo, where all the people that were owners of Medieval Madness, They were loving life because of how much they knew that their pin was worth.
    26:32
    And then all of a sudden this redoing of it comes out, and they're the ones that are raising the biggest stink. And it's like, why? Don't you want more people to be able to experience this? And truth be told, the value of your table technically shouldn't go down because now you get to say, no, I'm the original.
    26:51
    First edition, you might say, as opposed to a reprint. Very rare first edition. Exactly. But people go, well, geez, you know, before when I could flip this game on pin side for $6,000 or $7,000, now there's actually a newer version of it with brand new hardware, brand new play fields, everything's new in it. It's got a warranty. You know, why would people want to buy my clapped out 20-year-old pinball machine, even if I've taken immaculate care of it and done circuit work on it to try and keep it working? Jeffrey, you're a bit wrong on the price there, Jared. medieval was commanding 18 grand for an actual really?
    27:34
    so that's what I'm saying it was commanding 18 grand then all of a sudden it's hey you can buy this brand new one for 8 grand and they were freaking out well if they're using pinball as an investment they're kind of doing it wrong it's not a really good thing to use as an investment they should rethink their investment strategy and just treat their pinball machines as games. Yeah.
    27:58
    Well, it's also interesting. There was a discussion going on about the rumor that's kind of less of a rumor because apparently actual video of it exists, but you know what the next musical table from Stern is?
    28:15
    Take a wild guess. Oh, it's... I've heard discussion about this. It's not Iron Maiden. What was the name? it was Aerosmith, you're correct. Aerosmith. Oh, right. That's kind of cool. I like Aerosmith. Yeah, but it's like talk about old white guys rocking out. I mean, they were around the same time as the Rolling Stones. You know what I mean?
    28:45
    So clearly Can I have a quick Yeah. You're appealing to the retired guy or the soon-to-be retired guy that has a pinball collection. This is what you're putting in his house. But on the other hand, this is basic marketing. I mean, who are you marketing those things to? The guy who has the money because the 20-year-old or 30-year-old, maybe with small children, they can't afford those tables anywhere. Anyway, so it's clever to have this marketed towards 50 plus. But there were people bending over backwards to get the Metallica table.
    29:35
    Not many people were bending over backwards to get the Rolling Stones table, and although people like the ACDC table, I never heard the fervor over that that I did for the Metallica table. True, but they still sold crap loads of them. So, all I know is that... Varieties of types and premium models as well. So, it doesn't go without ACDC. Based off of Stern choice so let see ACDC yeah they had a game specific to Rockman And Metallica yeah they had a game specific to Guitar Hero And Aerosmith had a game specific to Guitar Hero So that leaves Van Halen and Green Day.
    30:16
    Green Day, I think, would be a very interesting one to do because they're still producing albums, these guys. Right. And they started off in the 90s, and they're still going today. Another one would be Red Hot Chili Peppers. and I think they're quite, they span the generations as well.
    30:36
    Yeah, I really don't know if I could stand an entire table of Chili Peppers music playing that long, but...
    30:44
    Yeah, I think there's lots of times they could do with Aerosmith. You know, the Jamie's got a gun mode. There would have to be some sort of gun toy on the table that you shoot the ball from, or, you know, like the cannon on ACDC. and there'll be lots of ways they can incorporate the song themes into it. I'd like to see them try and incorporate dude looks like a lady into the table.
    31:09
    That would be a great one to try and incorporate. I don't know. I mean, I like the music tables and all, but that one just seems lazy to me. Yeah. Look, I bet you it all comes down to licensing. You can guarantee these guys have got like about eight or nine different licensing fingers out there at the moment. going, hey, look, what music band is going to actually capitulate and give us a decent enough licensing deal for us to do it and also give us digital rights as well? Right. Because that's what they happen to think about now. That's probably the bigger thing. I don't know how easy it would be to actually incorporate Stern Pimple Arcade into a licensing agreement now. Oh, I don't think it's that much of a challenge. Yeah, I reckon they'll say, yeah, we want everything on this table, but we also want you to license us to do it digitally, and that's the clause. Or do you think it's a bit more than that? No, I think honestly all that the musician and their agents care about is how much are you paying for our songs. Yeah, it depends. That's all they care about because all they're concerned about is is it going to translate into record sales of our greatest hits albums. That's all they're concerned about. That's true. And so the larger the audience that can be reached, the better as far as they're concerned. And if pinball is a gateway into that audience. Exactly. people, really nice people like me as an Aerosmith fan when I was younger, would I want to actually go and buy a table if I had the money? Well, if it's a good enough table, yeah, probably.
    32:37
    But, you know, as for the older guys who may have actually seen them in concert when they were in their heyday, they will go, wow, I remember those songs. And they start to go, yeah, I think I should probably buy one of those. Well, that will be decided. Well, who knows?
    32:53
    Like I said, I always do reserve judgment until I've actually put my hands on the thing. The thing that I'm finding really hard at the moment is, while there's all these pinball machines being released and stuff, I was at the point in the 90s when I was able to get my hands on any pinball machine, right? Because I was working in the arcade. But now, because we've got the family and everything like that, it makes it a bit tricky to get to the places where they actually have them. and that I'd be able to play them. Like, for example, Dr. John Cosson down the Gold Coast has, like, his collection of 70 or 80 pinball machines, including America's Most Haunted and including, like, all the Wizard or all the Jersey Jack pinball games and everything. You know, he's got it all down there. But he's down the Gold Coast. And for me to actually organise that and get down there, like, if I was single, it would be like, yep, no worries, I'm going down there right now. and I'd head down there and do it. But for me to do it now, it's a logistical challenge to actually get that all lined up. That was me going down to Vegas for Pinball Hall of Fame. It was just kind of like, yeah, sure, why not? It's only 375 miles. Why not? Road trip. Road trip, let's do it. Yeah, but now it's like not so easy. So this is the thing that I'm regretting. I mean, we're in this point of the pinball renaissance again, or the recycling phase of how pinball always happens, yet there's going to be this big gap in my, I guess, my pinball history that I'm missing because I won't be able to say, hey, look, I've put my hands on an American's motor horn, but it was great. I did this, I did that. So, you know, thinking forward, when pinball arcade, when someone else does a pinball arcade during the next resurgence, 10 or 15 years down the track or whenever that is, I won't have that knowledge to call upon going, oh, yeah, I know how this plays, or I've played it before, or I've had some time on it. And that really kind of frustrates me. Like, it really frustrates me quite a lot, actually.
    35:02
    But, yeah, I don't know. If any other parents are out there in the same predicament, you should send me a tweet, and we can set up a support group. on the other hand you would have some nice surprises when those digital tables which you never played in real are released you discover new tables that's what I am doing that's true I have never played before and this is what I'm kind of hoping when Steampunk Blockade comes out because I've not really played things like Metallica and I've not really We played things like Star Trek to the extent that, you know, I'd actually call myself really quite comfortable with the game. So when they come out on Stern, reportedly, according to an official announcement from Farsight, later this fall, quote-unquote. So in spring? Yeah, in spring at some time.
    36:01
    Yeah, I'm calling after Christmas. So when it comes out then, we'll be able to sit down. We'll have the premium models, which for all intents are basically just like the limited editions without the silly plaque on it. So I'm okay with that.
    36:20
    And we'll be able to sit down and actually start playing through the game and learning the rules and actually getting that virtual experience. And who knows? Like at the end of this year, Google will be releasing Google VR, and that will mean that VR and stuff will be available to people other than Samsung owners. so you know who knows what that is going to mean for people's ability to kind of experience virtual pinball in the same way as they would experience real pinball um but you know from the comfort of their own home i think vr and pinball um are good bedfellows actually because you know it the challenge is making it making it affordable for people that don't have a huge amount of money. I don't have three grand to lay down for an Oculus set.
    37:07
    I think the mobile way of going for VR is arguably probably the way that VR is going to break into the market more.
    37:15
    Well, right now, so basically, they just released a Stern Pimble Arcade on Gear VR, just released the ACDC table. Yeah, I heard that one now. Which means that, hey, they were on schedule to exactly when they said that they would release it. Yeah. So that is a good thing that a schedule stuck to. But within that, it was also pretty blatantly shown that Oculus is who brought ACDC to fruition. They were the ones that dealt with the Kickstarter. And Farsight also confirmed that there are no plans for the VR version of CERN Pinball Arcade to be on anything but Gear VR at the moment. That's right. That's a hard and fast thing at the moment. So I think that's disappointing to hear, but if Oculus is bankrolling the whole thing, then you don't really have much choice for your partner.
    38:21
    What would be good, I think, is if Oculus VR opened up that platform to other mobile phone manufacturers. So, you know, Oculus, it is actually, you know, a relatively good platform. It does a good job at VR, so why not? Because then what you're going to have, right, going back to the old VR wars of Betamax and VHS, you're going to have Google VR competing for market when it comes out, and Google's got a pretty big engine behind it as far as marketing goes and clout. Then you've got Oculus behind it, which has its own set of cloud as well. So on mobile, there's going to be Gear VR and Google VR. And then on PC, there's going to be Vive and Oculus. And there was some other one that I heard of the other day. Yes, Steam. And then on consoles, you've got PlayStation VR. And I'm sure you're probably going to have Xbox VR. Or they might actually, because they're Microsoft-backed. From what I heard, Oculus. Is going the route with Oculus most likely. Steam, by the way,
    39:29
    is a Vive, right? I think so. Steam is selling the Vive on their shop. There's the question. Is it more a matter of the storefront? Is that what they're concerned with?
    39:46
    Like the ability to find and discover VR titles. and... Right. For example, that in the music industry, for the longest time, it was iTunes. You could get anything to download, but then all of a sudden, there was these other music streaming services that were popping up, and the albums would be exclusive to that streaming service. So obviously, they're trying to drive traffic to their service. So is that the case with Oculus? Oculus having its own store, and it wants to drive traffic through its store as opposed to driving.
    40:24
    And the store is only compatible with its tech, I'm assuming. Yeah, it's more, if you compare it again with the video systems, it's less of the video systems we had back in the days, but more like the consoles today where you have Xbox and PlayStation and you had the Android VR where they try to get exclusivity in order to sell. You've got your first-party developers and then you've got your third-party developers. Third-party is available across all platforms, and first-party is obviously first-party for whoever that manufacturer is. That's right.
    41:14
    So I think that's going to be one part of it as well, isn't it? Like seeing the emergence of which store is more popular. And I think you could be right there, Chris, the amount of people who find the store experience better or find the, like, based on reviews of people who already have the system, I think in this case the people power aspect of it will be the thing that drives adoption to the VR platforms. Because if people are saying, oh, yeah, the Vive store is anecdotally rubbish and the Steam store is awesome and it allows you to, you know, maybe even do things like DRM-free content or something like that, you know. There's all these little things they can introduce into their platforms later on that will make them a market, I guess give them a market differentiation and make it more attractive for them. I think it will be a bit like in the consoles as well where you have games which are the console seller, like you have the Mario for Nintendo. That sells the system. And I think you will see the same in the VR market. By the way, I'm not convinced that the mobile VR is something which will be very important because most mobile games, let's face it, are crap. Well, yeah. I think the ones that are designed for VR are mine, though. Those are the ones... If you're going to be doing Candy Crush in VR, then no. It's no good doing that. But if you're going to be making an experience in VR that's also well thought out and well planned, essentially, then it could be an absolute it could be basically the next Sonic or Mario or you know that type of mascot style thing that VR needs because I think this is where this is what actually sold consoles in the past like you had the Sega brand, you had the Sega or Sega sorry for those beyond the US speak real Sega assets like Sonic and all these like big name brands and then for Nintendo same thing Mario was like, you know, people would actually choose a brand or choose a console based on the mascot in some cases. Right.
    43:39
    So VR is lacking that at the moment. VR is just, at the moment, oh, it's just some games. Like, it's more about the hardware and not the, I guess, the package at the moment. And I think that's the thing that is clouding the market at the moment. They all do the same thing if you think about it. They all allay to experience virtual reality, but what is the big value add between the different markets? There's nothing from a consumer perspective except technical specs.
    44:14
    So they need to work that. This is where it's interesting with Facebook having purchased Oculus. Facebook is not looking at this from a gaming perspective, I don't believe. They're looking at it more from virtual meetings, using it as a chat format, you might say, which is where I think the mobile aspect comes in because you're more likely to check in on a conference call.
    44:46
    It's a call. If you're using your phone, so hey, how about if you just are able to slap your phone up onto your face and then you can be virtually there. I don't see people playing games on a bus basically with a blindfold on because you kind of want to be aware of your surroundings when you're in the public.
    45:04
    I seen some people doing it There pictures of it out there Yeah I know there pictures but I think for the general map you think about the apps that you use in your FaceTimes and stuff like that If you're sitting at the comfort of your own home, then you're less likely to use your phone to do that kind of thing. But if you're out and about, your phone becomes this touchstone that you can dive into all these different venues with, and I think that's where the mobile aspect is. I think the gaming is simply that's the easiest for consumers to understand. Yeah, they're probably right.
    45:40
    Gaming is something that people often do every day to some degree, so they understand that, but they might have a bit of trouble. Someone who's not actually an office worker, maybe a factory worker, may not understand what video conferencing is all about, and therefore for them it's like, well, why would I want this? I don't do this in my life at the moment. You know what would be the system seller number one?
    46:05
    What's that? Porn. Well, it always comes back to porn because it's the internet. Yeah, because you wouldn't believe how fast those systems would sell if… Oh, yeah. Yeah, but you know what? They've proven that it's no longer what it was. I mean, obviously, back in the day, it was what sold VHS over beta. it's what helped the consumer camera market it is what drove websites to begin with but now when they say because there was a big thing of oh wait until it comes out on Blu-ray it didn't have a matter it didn't matter. Google Glass people started saying oh wait until it comes out on that it didn't matter. You've reached a threshold where it's now gotten to the point where people are kind of going, you know what? I don't need to be that there.
    47:01
    I'm fine having a little gap in my realities with this. I'm just going to keep it at bay. Right there is good. It's the whole thing of when people were like, you know what? I don't need to see that in 4K because it's kind of disturbing.
    47:21
    Extreme close-ups will be risky in VR. Right, right. There was a great episode on 30 Rock when they were – now, 30 Rock filmed or was shot on film. It started being shot on digital, and DNFA real quickly within a couple of episodes went, nope, nope, let's go to film. Because digital cameras, there's a mistake that digital is more detailed than film. That's not correct. What it is is with film you have an analog wave of color and detail. With digital, it always breaks down to pixels. Those pixels will always give you this harsh line. We perceive that harsh, that definitive line as being crisper and cleaner. And so that is why there's this perception that digital is a sharper, cleaner picture than what film. Well, film is organic. It's what your eyes see as opposed to digital. So what was happening was that they were filming these actors, and it's magnifying flaws or magnifying reports because it can't do that smoothing out that an analog wave signal can. With digital, it's this on or off, and it creates harsher lines. So anyway, she didn't like the way it was making her look and said, nope, let's shoot this on film. So they started shooting it on film for the rest of the run. Well, there was an episode where she's walking through the studios, and they have a camera set up, and there's a monitor with what the camera is seeing. And so as the various actors walked in front of the camera, you would see then the monitor in the same shot and what it was looking like on digital. So Alec Baldwin goes walking by, and they threw up an image of him from when he was in his 20s. Oh, yeah. And then the character Kenneth, who was the page, he walks by and a Muppet goes dancing across the screen. And then Tina Fey goes walking by and they put up this just like hag version of her with hairs growing out of a mole and stuff like that. It was really funny.
    49:38
    So that's what I equate with. There's a certain point where people go, no, let's keep a distance. I like the illusion. Yeah, yeah. Spoil it all for me.
    49:53
    No, but the point in the end is what is going to sell the systems? Because right now, as I read in some news, I believe the origin was on Reddit, where someone found out that there is no increase in Vive and Oculus for Steam users, I think in July and August this year. The rate is the same, so they basically don't sell any more of those.
    50:30
    Oh, they plateaued. Yeah. Yeah, and I think at the moment the early adopters have all gotten their equipment, and now we're waiting for the system sellers. Yeah, everyone else is going, okay, let's wait to see which one's VHS, and then we'll go and get that.
    50:53
    Because I'm not anywhere near the market yet to actually want to buy one. I don't even think I will ever get there, to be honest. I think I will either.
    51:04
    I'll tell you the reason why. I have my headphones that I wear at night sometimes, and although they're perfectly comfortable, they do warm the ears and there's something on your head, and after a certain amount of time wearing them, I'm just like, I don't want to wear these anymore. So now you throw something that blocks my vision, is weighing a little heavier on the head. Now everybody goes, oh, but they're really lightweight. They're really lightweight. They're not a pair of glasses lightweight. you try holding in your hand something that only weighs one pound and with your hand outstretched tell me how it feels 10 minutes from then it's going to feel like 20 pounds you feel like 50 kilograms that's why I feel the sloughing of these which builds up in both things I mean if you have like the gear you have the phone which itself will heat up It turns into an oven, basically.
    52:03
    I think we've mentioned it before, but considering how many people freak out about having to wear 3D glasses.
    52:12
    I'm used to wearing glasses every day, so I don't know why people are freaking out about putting on sunglasses and don't freak out.
    52:23
    They're like, oh, the glasses bother me, and oh, I don't like the way they feel, and watching a movie, and oh, I get this headache, and blah, blah, blah. Come on, it's exponentially larger putting on a gear,
    52:33
    you know, any kind of Oculus headset. Yeah, certainly at the moment. Like, they're bulky as anything. And, yeah, they do, they're like ski goggles, but with a big camera hanging off the front of them. Right. So they're not entirely comfortable. Like, they're really, they're not for prolonged use. Like, you would, I think you would actually, like, do, like, about an hour with them at most. maybe a movie, a maximum, and then you would go and do something else, because you couldn't watch it with the amount of weight that's on there at the moment. And while I'm certainly curious to see pinball in virtual reality, that's not enough for me to go out and purchase one exclusively for one game. It's got to be one of those where it's like, oh my gosh, there's yet another game that I need it for, that I want it for. This is killing me to not have it. Exactly. Yeah, I agree. And you need the PC to run it. That's right. It must be good enough. Or you need the Samsung S6 or S7 at least. Yeah, that's Galaxy S7 at this stage.
    53:47
    Not a Note 7, though, because those are exploding. It's exploding right in front of your eyes. they really heat up your head those ones really really badly give you a nice raccoon look like the cartoons did it's actually 4D you get flames with it right exactly it was so real it scorched me yeah so Jared I do have to know before we wrap this up you had tweeted out that you were watching Star Wars Force Awakens in 35 minute increments then what I decided to do is just stay up and watch the rest of it I give in I gotta just watch it in one go yeah it was getting towards the end and all the good stuff happens towards the end of those movies so I thought no I'm just going to sit down and just put my headphones on laptop on my lap in bed and watch it and it was surprising the audio in that movie is pretty good through the headphones that I'm wearing at the moment it sounds incredible and like the laptop screen, if you put it close enough, it's in a dark room. It's actually kind of like being in a cinema, surprisingly enough. So I went, okay, this is working for me.
    55:03
    And yeah, loved it very much. So the pinball machine is making a lot more sense now. And so is one of the first order. I was going, who's the gravelly voice talking? What's going on here? Now I understand. Ah, okay. Yeah, okay. Fair enough. that's how I feel whenever I see one of these for instance we haven't had the Doctor Strange movie yet it's coming out this fall so I'm looking forward to finally understanding what the heck is going on on the Zen table after seeing the movie that's how it's been with a lot of these Zen Marvel tables where I mean I'm sorry, Moon Knight, I still have no clue what the heck is going on, I need a movie for that yeah apart from looking at the rules, you need to sort of know a bit of the backstory. I think this sort of goes back without weighing down it too long. This is like when I see a South Park table in the arcade, I go, oh, yeah, cool. I'll have a go at that. It's a terrible game. But because I've watched those episodes intimately that were featured in that particular pinball machine, it resonates with me and I find it fun, right? but these later licensed tables, things like Bob's Burgers and Family Guy and stuff like that, I don't have any connection with those fan choices at all, and I think that's why I just never play them, because I don't know the, I guess, the lore that goes along with them. It's inaccessible for me as a person who likes pinball, but just doesn't get, because everything is quips and call-outs from the show, and it doesn't really make any sense in context of the game. and this is why I'm having a lot of trouble getting into those games, I guess. Well, let me just recommend, and I don't know if it's on Netflix in Australia, but it is here in the US. Archer is available to stream on Netflix and I highly recommend watching it because it is a very, very funny show. Okay, I'll have to give it a go. I'd say you can get a copy of it somehow.
    57:05
    Alright, I should probably go. Yeah, for a podcast that I didn't think was going to happen and I was just going to have Sven come in so that he could gloat about his Star Wars table scores that I probably am just going to let rot.
    57:20
    Seriously, when you pick tables I don't like, I mean, that's why, honestly, why the Alien vs. Predator score has remained for you. But for Darth Vader, it's not my fault. I don't say that.
    57:36
    Well, maybe I'll give that one one more go. I've had enough of trying to do with Starfighter. It's not going anywhere. I've given up on that one. But maybe I'll give Darth Vader one more go and see what he can do. Let me have a few high scores. You have the majority of them. I know, I know. I want to be a completist.
    57:53
    Not going to happen. Like I said, wait until we start dragging the barrel and we're challenging each other on Pasha.
    58:07
    Oh, yeah. it's going to have to be pretty bad before we get to that point isn't it? surely alright gang well hey thanks for tuning in and listening hey if you got a question for us why don't you hit us up on email blahblahblockade at gmail.com we'd love to hear from you or if it's easier for you to use twitter we know how so much of you guys love using twitter hit us up at Blockade, or you can talk to myself at ShutYourTraps. You can talk to Jared at JaredMorgz. And hey, why don't you drop a line at you've got to spell it for me because otherwise X-A-N-I-J-A There we go.
    58:55
    X-A-N-I-J-A Yeah, give us a chat. It's so simple. It rolls right off the tongue. Oh, yeah, one more thing. Check out our website, www.blockadepinball.com. All right, we'll chat again next week, gang.
    59:18
    See you. Bye-bye. WizardAmusement.com, the West Coast leader in classic pinball. Makers of custom pinball shooter rods and buyer specifications. Swap out your standard ball plunger with something themed to your specific table. Installs in less than five minutes with no custom tools. Even if you don't own a table, it looks great as a pimpolamento to admire. Prices start at $39, but mention Blockade Podcast and receive 10% off your order. WizardAmusement.com. Sales, restoration, customization.
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