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Episode 61 - Stern Versus The Field

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·46m 12s·analyzed·Jul 16, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Industry buzz covers Willy Wonka LEs, Alice Cooper/Spooky synergy, Stern's Comic-Con reveal, and fraught Big Lebowski secondary sale ethics.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill discuss industry news including Jersey Jack's Willy Wonka LE rollout, Spooky's Alice Cooper stage integration, Stern's upcoming Comic-Con reveal (rumored dinosaur theme), Multimorphic's team and P3 innovations, and extensive debate over the Dutch Pinball/Big Lebowski situation where 40 machines are being resold through CoinTaker at $12,500, creating ethical and service concerns for early backers who lost their deposits.

Key Claims

  • Willy Wonka LE production units are reaching distributors and should ship in coming weeks

    high confidence · Steve Haberman, Jersey Jack Pinball official update

  • Willy Wonka version 1.08 code update has been released with minor bug fixes

    high confidence · Steve Haberman, Jersey Jack Pinball official update

  • Alice Cooper's new stage production is based on Spooky's Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle game from a year ago

    high confidence · Dr. John, Spooky Pinball segment

  • Stern Pinball will reveal their next title at Comic-Con (July 18-21) in San Diego

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell and Bill discussion

  • The rumored Stern Comic-Con title features dinosaurs

    low confidence · Ken Cromwell speculation

  • Big Lebowski machines have experienced manufacturing defects, with at least two known non-working units in the field

    medium confidence · Bill's personal knowledge

  • Dutch Pinball has reached a deal with ARA to have 40 Big Lebowski machines shipped to CoinTaker in the US for redistribution

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell reporting on Dutch Pinball situation

  • Ed Robertson (Barenaked Ladies) performs with Stern t-shirts on stage and travels with pinball machines as a pinball ambassador

    high confidence · Dr. John and Ken Cromwell discussion

Notable Quotes

  • “If CoinTaker said, hey, Bill, we're going to get you a Big Lebowski at $12,500, and we are going to guarantee you that over the next six to 12 months we're going to service it for the year, and at the end of the year, if the game isn't 100% working, then we're going to buy that game back from you—would you go in and buy Big Lebowski?”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~53:00 — Explores hypothetical service guarantee framework that might resolve ethical concerns about secondary Big Lebowski sales

  • “I can't in good conscience go buying a pinball machine that somebody lost their butt on because a manufacturer didn't hold up to their end of the bargain.”

    Bill @ ~55:00 — Core ethical objection to Big Lebowski purchase—concerns extend beyond price and service to the negative history surrounding the game

  • “Barry's now making money off the same game twice. He's either clearing his debt with ARA or putting money in his pockets or likely both.”

    Manimal (Pinside forum user, quoted by Ken Cromwell) @ ~58:00 — Articulates skepticism that Dutch Pinball founder Barry is profiting from the same machines twice while original backers lose money

  • “Right now it's a used car salesman to me.”

    Bill @ ~62:00 — Expresses fundamental distrust in Dutch Pinball/Barry's claims about how resale proceeds will benefit original backers

  • “I don't feel right about that whether or not it's just not something that sits well with me.”

    Bill @ ~63:00 — Final ethical position: unwilling to purchase a Big Lebowski as a way to ostensibly help early backers

  • “Anybody with a little bit of knowledge and just some cool ideas can actually get something out into the world for other people to use.”

    Tom Law (Multimorphic developer, quoted in segment) @ ~27:00 — Captures the promise of open-platform design philosophy that Multimorphic P3 enables for third-party developers

  • “Stern is a lifestyle brand.”

    Bill @ ~37:00 — Positioning pinball machines as lifestyle/cultural statements beyond just games, supporting the Ed Robertson apparel discussion

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBillpersonSteve BowenpersonSteve HabermanpersonDr. JohnpersonRyan ClaytorpersonTom LawpersonJerry StellenbergpersonEd Robertsonperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Willy Wonka LE units reaching distributors and shipping within coming weeks

    high · Steve Haberman: 'LEs pictures appeared on Pinside that maybe some LEs are reaching distributors and should be going out in the next few weeks'

  • ?

    code_update: Willy Wonka version 1.08 released with minor bug fixes

    high · Steve Haberman: 'Version 1.08, a new code has been already sent out to the internet from Jersey Jack. These are minor updates and to fix some bugs.'

  • ?

    announcement: Stern Pinball will reveal next title at Comic-Con July 18-21 (possibly with IGN teaser beforehand)

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'Stern Pinball is set to reveal their next title...coming up at Comic-Con, which is starting July 18th, going through the 21st in San Diego'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Rumored Stern Comic-Con reveal features dinosaur theme

    low · Ken Cromwell: 'the rumored title is that it's going to be featuring some type of dinosaurs. So we'll see if that comes to fruition or maybe they throw us a curveball'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Alice Cooper integrating Spooky Pinball's Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle game design into live stage production

    high · Dr. John: 'Alice Cooper, who's actually based his entire new stage production on Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle...From the pictures he posted, it actually looks like the pinball machine makes an appearance on stage.'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.139

0:00
coming at you out of st charles illinois the special when lit pinball podcast starts now hey what's going on pinball land it's episode 61 of the special when lit pinball podcast my name is ken cromwell i am bill and we've got some news to cover today actually the pinball news is starting to pick up a bit as we get closer and closer to the pinball fall offseason. Wow, yeah, it's actually getting closer now. I mean, Expo's even getting close now. Expo's getting close. We'll be talking about Expo on future episodes, but what's going on with you, Bill? We are recording today out of Special Inlet Studio B, B for Steve Beattie, who's our partner in crime in all of our pinball adventures. So we are at Studio B today. Nice, yep, with all these fabulous pinball machines, if you can see in the background. I'm curious, yeah. Stream. On stream you can see it. So that's more incentive to check it out later. Don't forget to check out our streams at Flip and Out Pinball on Twitch. But what's happening with you, Bill? What's going on? Another man just trying to survive the heat and picked up a couple of new games, which we can talk about later. That's about it, man. How about you? I've been surviving Little League traveling all-star tournament temperatures in Chicago. We were complaining about how it was rainy and how it was cold for months, and now it's like dire heat. So I've been trying to get over that. It's like the cold room of the Titanic. Man, that's just brutal. You play two, three games a day in 90 days. I'm not even playing. I'm just coaching. I feel bad for the kids, but it is what it is, and you know how that goes. Let's start off the show with a little bit of the industry buzz.
1:36
Getting the news from around the industry in this week's industry buzz. Hey, this is Steven Haberman with your weekly update from Jersey Jack Pinball. A lot of walking news this week as it is its new game. It's been live streamed a lot on Twitch Pinball streaming personality Deadflip did do a live stream Of Willy Wonka last week He was able to get to the Willy Wonka's office wizard mode I believe that's done by collecting Two golden tickets But that was the first time that that was captured on stream So it's good to take a look at his Twitch archive to take a look at that Also Willy Wonka's LEs Pictures appeared on Pinside that maybe some LEUs are reaching distributors and should be going out in the next few weeks so that the rumors that it was on the line are true and they are starting to get out there into the wild. Version 1.08, a new code has been already sent out to the internets from Jersey Jack. These are minor updates and to fix some bugs. And finally, we do want to express our condolences to the family and to the Wonka co-stars who knew Denise Nickerson. Denise was the actress who played Violet Beauregard in the movie. Denise Nickerson passed away. So that is all for us this week. Hope to have more for you next week. This is Steve Harriman signing off. Hello from Dr. John for this week's spooky update. We've always known music and pinball go together well with Ed Robertson riding silver ball and wearing stern and spooky t-shirts on stage. We've got Slash recently revealing the Guns N' Roses pin is on its way, but this week's award goes to Alice Cooper, who's actually based his entire new stage production on Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. Of course, this game was released by Spooky a year ago and is in full production at the moment. I've seen the pictures. I'd love to know what songs he plays. We'll have to find out from Charlie when he gets back from G-Fest about the show and the influence the game has on it. From the pictures he posted, it actually looks like the pinball machine makes an appearance on stage. Well done, Ellis, and great for promoting pinball even more. That's about it for this week. Catch you next week.

  • “It's tainted.”

    Bill @ ~66:00 — Succinct summary of how the Dutch Pinball situation has compromised the Big Lebowski's appeal despite loving the game

    • Charlie Emery
    person
    Eric Minierperson
    Joe Katzperson
    Slashperson
    Deadflipperson
    Denise Nickersonperson
    Barryperson
    Manimalperson
    Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Multimorphiccompany
    Dutch Pinballcompany
    CoinTakercompany
    Nitro Pinballcompany

    content_signal: Willy Wonka's office wizard mode achieved on stream by both Deadflip and Joe Katz on same night, generating positive exposure

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'we had two guys that had achieved the same wizard mode on the same night during streams that were going on at the same time. So it was a wonky night. It was cool. It was great exposure for the game.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Multimorphic P3 includes Wizard Tutorial app allowing players to practice specific shots and mechanics on demand

    high · Ryan Claytor segment: Tom Law on Wizard Tutorial app 'which is a practice app for teaching pinball skills' allowing unlimited ball feed to specific shot types

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Tom Law profiled as 4-year Multimorphic developer and module developer on next P3 title; returned from parental leave

    high · Ryan Claytor: 'Tom Law...I'm a Multimorphic game developer and software designer that's been working for them for four years...I had a kid about a year and a half ago. But now, in 2019, he's back at work'

  • ?

    product_concern: Big Lebowski machines exhibiting reliability issues; Bill confirms knowledge of at least two non-working units in field

    medium · Bill: 'There's two that I know of that have hit the street that are currently not working...Just that fact alone, that's scary enough to keep me away from it.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Dutch Pinball reached settlement with manufacturer ARA; 40 Big Lebowski machines being redistributed through CoinTaker at $12,500 per unit

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'Dutch Pinball, Barry, has struck a deal with ARA...Those machines are going to be shipped over to CoinTaker in the United States...And then now it's one of two things...you have money down at CoinTaker...you will get your pinball machine.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Growing community skepticism and negative sentiment around Big Lebowski resale ethics, with concerns that original backers are being excluded while new buyers gain access

    high · Bill: 'It's tainted so you don't feel like you'd be a hero by purchasing a game for yourself...yeah i don't feel right about that...it's just not something that sits well with me'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Ed Robertson (Barenaked Ladies) functioning as pinball ambassador, wearing Stern merchandise on stage and traveling with machines; did voiceover for Black Knight Sword of Rage

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'Ed Robertson riding Silver Ball and wearing Stern and Spooky t-shirts on stage...he's a pinball ambassador now...he does travel with pinball machines'

    • 4:04
    Hey, Special Inlet. Ryan Claytor, your Multimorphic Correspondent here. Another recurring topic I'd like to focus on with these segments is highlighting various employees and developers associated with Multimorphic. You're likely aware of the company founder, Jerry Stellenberg. Thanks, Ryan. Who's great, but I don't think a lot of hobbyists are aware of the team of like-minded, motivated innovators that Jerry has surrounded himself with. Today, I'd like to introduce you to one member of the Multimorphic team. My name is Tom Law. I live in Austin, Texas. I'm a multi-morphic game developer and software designer that's been working for them for four years. After having a conversation with Jerry at TPF 2015, Tom realized... Oh, I have a tech shop membership. I can make a game and release it myself and roll out, you know, ten kits out of my garage. It's just something you can't do for a traditional game. That led him to working on development of the early P3 dev kit, along with some final polish on Lexi Lightspeed. He followed that up by taking the reins as... lead designer for Cannon Lagoon. Then, at TPF 2017, you saw some of Tom's work on the Wizard Tutorial app for the P3, which is a practice app for teaching pinball skills. At that point, Tom took a little break because... I had a kid about a year and a half ago. But now, in 2019, he's back at work on the P3's next full-featured title after Cosmic Kart Racing. When asked about his specific role on this upcoming title, he said... I'm the module developer, which is basically my role is to make all of the mechs on the playfield work and allow them to be controlled from the application software side. So this is all the functionality that would be available to anybody to build a game for that playfield. In closing, it's pretty apparent that Tom's passion for working on this platform is just as palpable now as when it was when he first discovered it. For me, that's like the most exciting thing about P3 is anybody with a little bit of knowledge and just some cool ideas can actually get something out into the world for other people to use. That'll do it for this segment. See you next week when we talk about another public opportunity to play the P3. Until then, stay innovative. And in other news, we know that Stern Pinball is set to reveal their next title, and that's going to be coming up at Comic-Con, which is starting July 18th, going through the 21st in San Diego. And then, of course, we've got the Dutch pinball situation that's continuing to evolve in regards to those that are looking to get a Big Lebowski pinball. But let's go first. Let's cover Jersey Jack pinball. As we had heard Steve Haberman talking about, the LEs are now beginning to come off the line and get over to distributors. Yeah, that's exciting, man, to see that those are finally hitting the line, man. And those should be in people's homes kind of quick, you'd think. I mean, it's an awesome game. So looking forward to seeing those hit the street. and I think we'll have one coming this way. So you've played the special edition. I keep saying special edition. You've played the standard edition Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, and you've played the limited edition Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. Now, the big difference being the Wonka Vader, that physical locking mech that's on the backboard in the upper left corner of that machine. In your opinion, after playing both, Bill, and having significant time now on this standard edition, do you warrant the additional dollars in order to go to LE status and you're going to get some additional things too, like Invisiglass and volume control on the outside, Coindor, a different armor package. But to you and to me, I think the main thing is the mech. Is that worth it to you to go to LE from Standard Edition? You know what, if you got the money, I would. But, I mean, if you don't and you're just trying to save a few dollars, maybe not. I mean, I don't think you lose a whole lot by not having it. Yeah, I don't think you're missing out. For me, though, I mean, LE is where I'm at because I would feel like I'm missing out for whatever reason. And that's just kind of my thought process. Same thing when I go with Stern pinball machines. I usually like to get the premiums because I feel like, ah, you know what? Maybe in the grand scheme of things, I don't need that. But I know that I don't have it, and I could, and it drives me crazy, man. So I'm a middle-tier guy. I'm not making the big bucks to get the Super LEs or the collector editions. That's out of my price range. You know what? I mean, I like both of them.
    8:13
    I see a wonk on my future one day. I just don't know which one it will be, whether it will be an Ellie or an Essie in all honesty. Well, you said you'd like to get one before your son is born, and he's coming in October, so you don't have as much time as you think. Yeah, but I did some other purchases, which might have influenced some of that. Okay. Well, fair enough, fair enough. We'll cover that in a little Bill's Corner coming up shortly. Steve also mentioned Deadflip on his streaming channel was able to get to Wonka's office, which is one of the wizard modes. And that was the same night that we were streaming here with Joe Katz. And that wizard mode was also done here. So we had two guys that had achieved the same wizard mode on the same night during streams that were going on at the same time. So it was a wonky night. It was cool. It was great exposure for the game. And I'm hoping that everybody that was able to take part in either or both of those streams walked away with a positive experience. And Joe just lit it up that night when we were watching him play. Dude, he did a great job. He was not lighting it up in the beginning. No, no, no. He was trying to make me feel better. I was feeling better. She did a great job at that. Yeah. Eric Minier was giving him the business because every time he had a short ball time, he would be like, latest gentleman, the coder on Willy Wonka as he walks away with 1,600 points. But yeah, it was fun. It was fun hanging out with those guys. And then sadly, Denise Nickerson, who played Violet in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, has passed on. So our condolences to Violet's family. And her legacy lives on via video and via the pinball machine and other sources. So it's nice to know that she's kind of encapsulated herself in time with arguably one of the most popular movies, themes that have ever come our way. Absolutely. Now we go over to Dr. John, who's covering spooky pinball. And this was a fun segment. I appreciate it, Dr. John, because this is something that you don't really hear about in the main stage of pinball. We're always thinking about machines. We're thinking about code. We're thinking about artwork. but he's talking about now is Alice Cooper taking the pinball machine and the design of the pinball machine and implementing that into his live show on stage. So those that go to Alice Cooper shows are really inside of the world of pinball. Which is awesome. I think it's freaking awesome, man. That's cool. That's a lot of exposure for the hobby, too. So, I mean, that's all good stuff right there. Now, do you think Charlie Emery went in and he kind of designed the layout of the stage? Was it just in spirit of Alice Cooper and Nightmare Castle? The pop bumper behind the drummer? Yeah, I don't know, man. I think that's really, really cool. He mentioned, like, so Ed Robertson recently. And Ed Robertson, he's the lead singer of the Barenaked Ladies. And he's been a big supporter of pinball. And he does a lot of work with Stern Pinball. In fact, he did some voiceover work in Black Knight Sword of Rage. And he's performed live at their 30th anniversary party, or was it the 35th anniversary party? That was at Expo a few years ago, the same year that Batman 66 came out. and uh you know he was he was seen on stage wearing a stern t-shirt which i think is great exposure for the company and uh because stern is a lifestyle brand well and he does travel with pinball machines he does he does he's he's a pinball ambassador now i would like to reach out to ed robertson and and offer our services for providing you with some special windley pinball podcast t-shirt because we are also a podcasting lifestyle brand what we would like to do is we would like to send you some attire a complimentary and if if you would uh do us the justice of wearing something like that on stage i don know how i could ever repay you there ed but that would be fun exposure not for the podcast because nobody going to understand what it is but it really cool tiki artwork and I think he would just look cooler wearing it on stage Not that he can look cooler, because he's already a pretty cool guy, but in all honesty, it would just be a personal thrill for me to be able to see that. It would be a lot cooler if he did. Now, he's coming to Tinley Park, and we're supposed to all be getting the bus out there to go see the concert, so maybe I can slip him a t-shirt and ask if he can wear it for a song or something. I'll have to reach out to Ed and see what he says. And he'll probably say no. But you know what? He's going to be like, who are you guys? We didn't get as far as we did without asking questions. This is true. Not that we're that far anyways. We need to ask more questions, I suppose. Absolutely. And then Dr. John, he cited that, you know, Guns and Roses, the pinball's coming because that was confirmed by Slash during an interview. So that's a whole other thing, a game reveal that isn't going to happen in a typical fashion. And that's fine. I think everybody knew that Guns and Roses was coming along with Toy story being rumored so for that to be exposed and for that to be kind of out there from slash who's working closely with jersey jack pinball it's i guess the cat's out of the bag so now we can kind of get excited about it i definitely think that that's going to change some of the dynamics in pinball with some of these music pins so i'm really looking forward to seeing that if that is the next title and comes to fruition we will see we will see we also had ryan clader covering multimorphic and jerry is working with a lot of employees and over to bring multimorphic to the masses. And again, sales is going to be huge for the survival of the platform. But to be able to put a face with a company or an employee, give the company a little bit of a personality in this situation, Ryan was referencing Tom Law, I think it's important because to get to know the people behind the machines, it always kind of gives you a personal connection with what's going on with the company. When you get the chance to play pinball with some of your idols, designers, coders, sound guys, it definitely changes the dynamic of how you feel about that machine, especially when you start hearing the backstories of said machine. I'll never forget when we did the Steve Ritchie interview and talking about Getaway and how that all came to be and the story about the Porsche in California. I mean, that was just an awesome experience. So the next time I played Getaway, it was just, you know, I had much more appreciation for that pin. So definitely agree. I mean, you definitely have a bigger appreciation for these people that are putting the time in. That's why I love doing our panel discussions, because I think when you get the staff in a roundtable discussion type atmosphere and they're sharing stories and they're doing reflections, and you saw a lot of this in the Munsters panel discussion that we did, so many people had contacted us and said, man, that was so cool to be able to hear those guys talk in real time about the machine. And I know that it had resulted in some sales. And we don't do it necessarily because we're trying to sell pinball machines, but we like to hear the stories behind the guys that are creating the machines. But just as importantly are the people that are on the line. You see American Pinball, they're introducing people on their social media showing so-and-so has been working here on the line and this is what he does. It's that small little personal approach that gives people a connection with a company and ultimately with a machine when you get into the hierarchy of the designers and the coders and the artists. Absolutely. The other thing that I thought was important to take away from that conversation that Ryan had with us was that there is a tutorial app that comes that can be downloaded or that comes with Multimorphic P3. And it's it allows you to work on your pinball skills. And this is something that I had always envisioned, especially now with the LCDs coming out machines. If you're having a problem trying to hit the left orbit, you should be able to go into, you know, practice mode and select left orbit. And the machine should be able to feed you balls, which will allow you to just practice that left orbit shot. If you're having a hard time hitting a scoop, you would highlight the scoop and hit it. The machine should be able to plug you unlimited balls to try to hit that scoop shot. And if you're trying to work on your tap pass, if you're trying to work on trapping up, all those kind of things, I think that's so ingenuitive. And it allows somebody that might have to learn on the fly the opportunity to really break down and dissect a pinball machine moment by moment in order for them to try to fulfill what they're ultimately trying to achieve, whether it be a high score or get through modes. So again, we talk about innovation, and Multimorphic's already doing something that I had always hoped and I didn't realize until I heard it on the segment provided by Ryan Claytor. Yeah, that is definitely a cool feature. So then we go over to Stern Pinball revealing their next title. Now, this is going to come in days here. And again, we talked about it's going to be revealed at Comic-Con, which is taking place in San Diego. It's July 18th through the 21st. There's like a preview, not of Stern necessarily, but like an advanced admission that happens on the 17th. Now, we are recording today, which is Monday the 15th. So very well, we may have already seen something. As far as it is right now, it's 610 Central Time in the PM. Nothing's been revealed that we know of. So do we see a teaser video come out on IGN? and then do we see the pin officially revealed at Comic-Con, or do they hold all promotional stuff for this pin and they just launch it at Comic-Con, Bill? I think you make two valid points. I mean, for the most part, they've recently just been doing IGN stuff first. I think on Munsters it was a little different, right? Yeah, you see that lately. I mean, you've got Stern Pinball and IGN. They've obviously teamed up in regards to revealing games through that network. Oh, yeah. You know what? On this game, depending on what it is, I could definitely see them coinciding the release with the IGN news release. So you think it'll hit IGN before they officially reveal the pin and pull the cover off the pin over at Comic-Con? No, on this one I could see them both of those being... Simultaneous? Simultaneous. Okay, so you're talking about an all-day extravaganza of a reveal. Okay, so we'll see. And then the rumored title is that it's going to be featuring some type of dinosaurs. So we'll see if that comes to fruition or maybe they throw us a curveball and we get something completely different. Time will tell. But you know what? We're close. So we're within a couple days. Let's go over to Dutch Pinball. And we covered it a little bit last week as the news was breaking. Dutch Pinball, Barry, has struck a deal with ARA in regards to trying to get the pinball machines that have been held at ARA, the manufacturer in which they were not able to pay to receive the pinball machines in order to sell them to the early achievers. that had already bought or put down deposits, they were not able to fulfill that agreement because they weren't able to finish the payments on the manufacturing process. Because ARA changed the price. Right. Well, supposedly ARA had changed the price. And again, it went to litigation over that. ARA won, so they are holding the 40 machines. And now we are hearing, as we talked about last week, those machines are going to be shipped over to Cointaker in the United States. Some of those will go to Nitro Pinball, but majority of them, the way that I read it, will stay at CoinTaker. And then now it's one of two things. Either one, you have money down at CoinTaker, which is a distributor, and whatever the balance would be to come up with the additional money to make $12,500, you will get your pinball machine. Now, if you're an early achiever and you didn't buy your game from CoinTaker or you were too deep on the list of Nitro Pinball and you paid Dutch Pinball directly, you're SOL. You are not getting a pinball machine. So what has happened now is people have been able to kind of jump the line that never had any skin in the game, and they've been able to acquire a game by either completing a balance with Cointaker, which is fine because that's legit, or they've been able to pay $12,500 for a game that has not been claimed at Cointaker, and they technically have a game that's already been reserved for somebody else. So the game's kind of been sold twice. Now, when you look at social media, there's been a lot of issues or there's been a lot of opinions either way. Some of those opinions that we'll talk about right now. But before we get into that, Bill, do you think that buying, for instance, somebody else's machine? Well, Big Lebowski has been a game that you've you've really wanted to have. That's one that's on the list. That's one that's on the list that I probably will never get. and not necessarily because of financial means, but just because of the fact that the whole premise of having a machine that there is no supplier to provide parts or there's a finite amount of parts kind of scares me. I don't want to be innovative and fix stuff and come up with all these different things on that game. That said, I think it's a shame because I think it is a great game, but in my future I don't see owning one, not just because of price. So your concern isn't the price. It's from the support side. Because just because the 40 games are released into the public, now we know that Viglebowski in general, after manufacturing, had had problems. So you're concerned more about service and support after the sale. Well, yeah. I mean, there's two that I know of that have hit the street that are currently not working.
    20:25
    Oh, I'm sure there's a lot more than that. I'm saying that I know of. That you know of personally? Yeah. So just that fact alone, that's scary enough. to keep me away from it. What about the ethical decision of purchasing a pinball machine that technically somebody else had paid for, but now they're not able to get because they purchased direct from the manufacturer or from the company that was offering the game and not from a distributor that held money in escrow? I think it sucks, in all honesty. But does that factor into your decision at all? Let me ask you this. If Cointaker said, hey, Bill, we're going to get you a Big Lebowski, It's $12,500, and we are going to guarantee you that over the course of the next six to 12 months – now, Cointaker isn't saying this, that I know of, but if they did say this – We're speculating. A speculative story. No, it's just a hypothetical story. I don't even think this is what's happening. Yeah, yeah. But if they said, all right, Bill, if there's a problem with the game, we're going to service it for the year, and at the end of the year, if the game isn't 100% working, then we're going to buy that game back from you, and then you get your 12.5 back, and we'll figure it out on our end. At that point, would you go in and buy Big Lebowski?
    21:31
    Honestly, that's a great, you know, the one side of me says absolutely. There's, you know, no chance of really getting burned other than having it for a year and getting your money back if it breaks. But then you still have all the negative energy surrounding that machine with people that lost money on it. Same thing with Aliens and a lot of these other companies that have folded. I can't in good conscience go buying a pinball machine that somebody lost their butt on because a manufacturer didn't hold up to their end of the bargain. Okay, so then it's not necessarily just a service and support. It's everything. It's the unfortunate background story behind the pinball machine that also weighs into your decision. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, you know what I mean? If they found a way to make those people whole, they found somebody in the States to start manufacturing the game, and it was accessible for everybody, then I would have different reservations on it. But as of right now, I don't know if I really want something like that in my personal collection at the moment. Now let me offer the other side of the argument here. So you don't want to purchase it because of service and support issues and the story behind the game where you're buying something else, potentially out from somebody else that should own the game in a perfect world. But if we listen to everything that they are saying, and when I say they, I'm talking about Dutch Pinball and specifically Barry. He's saying that if these games aren't sold this way, then in no way will additional games ever be made to fulfill the requests and the orders of the early achievers. So with that in the conversation do you kind of find yourself as helping the early achiever by potentially getting a game Because otherwise they would not have any other avenue and they would be out of luck Does that weigh into your decision Because this is what people are thinking about And this is where people are going back and forth. And I want to read to you a message right now or a post that I read on Pinside. And it's from Pinside user Manimal. And he says, unfortunately, the middle ground means Barry's now making money off the same game twice. He's not doing this out of the goodness of his heart he's either clearing his debt with ara or putting money in his pockets or likely both and this is why i have a problem with how this is going down if this were a typical company failure and ara was selling off assets then i wouldn't have near as much of an issue but the guy takes people's money for games that are never delivered and then gets to sell them again to somebody else the distros know this and they don't care if any money goes back to the original buyers then it would be a step in the right direction but we all know that isn't going to happen. So, I mean, that's skepticism. Whereas he's saying that, listen, floating the story of saying that by, by you jumping the line and buying these games at 12, five, it's going to help us get games to the early achievers that, that put money down and are not getting their games. Otherwise, is that a lie? They, you know, Barry doesn't have the best track record as far as being upfront and completely honest with everybody throughout the process. So that's got to lay heavily on people's minds for me there's just so many different variables that can go into this and whereas you can kind of convince yourself that you're doing something that's ethical by purchasing this game because you're going to help somebody else do you actually believe that i don't believe any of it in all honesty until i see games hitting the street i'll start believing it till you know there's talk of uh the early achievers getting their games i'll maybe start believing it right now it's a used car salesman to me oh no no that's that's yellow primer they put underneath that red paint you know um what do you think what do you think about coin takers saying listen either we bought these games and we distributed them to our customers in order to kind of further the efforts or they would have meant they would have went uh overseas and they would have stayed in europe and then that market would have you have a problem with the distributor here no i don't um i'm glad they got the games i'm glad that they're going to try and uh get things going and get things moving and get people their their money or their you know games i think it's kind of crummy that the the game's now 12-5 but you know what that's on them if that if it goes through or it's not on them if it doesn't go through it's so you're saying you're happy they're doing it but then you have but you have a problem with the situation i don't like the situation on how it can go just because they get the games doesn't mean that the right things are going to happen in the long run out of it okay so i'm happy for him you know this is a very very cautious uh situation in my eyes and that sucks because i love the game but now it's like tainted so it's it's tainted so you don't feel like you'd be a hero by purchasing a game for yourself in the hopes that the early achievers ultimately will benefit and get their game because of your sacrifice of paying 12 500 for a game that they already paid for yeah i don't feel right about that whether whether or not it's it's just not something that sits well with me okay so the so Sales and service and ethical.
    26:15
    Always around. Parts, service, price, the people that lost their butt on this. But if you don't buy it for $12,500, Bill, it's going to go to Europe, and somebody else is going to buy it for $12,500. Great, let them get parts for it. What? I'm just being honest. No, I know. Well, supposedly there are some parts out there. You saw how the community rallied around Alien. They were able to get these games kind of up and running and more dependable. I would imagine with the pocketbooks that are going into purchasing the Big Lebowski at $12,500, that those same pockets would be willing to dump in even a couple thousand dollars more in a group project to make sure the game's running properly. So I think money backs this project and potentially makes it successful. I just really doubt, and I'm not trying to be a negative Nancy, I really don't see where paying additional money for the pins actually is able to drum up a whole other startup of another company or another manufacturing process on the Big Lebowski. I think you're still coming up way short. To me, and I'm going to say in advance, I apologize to Barry because it sounds like, again, I don't know any inside information. I don't know Barry personally. But looking at this from an outside perspective, it seemed like there was a severe money management issue with the original order money that came in for Big Lebowski. And maybe it was an influx of cash that him and Yop were not used to handling. And they had good intentions by spending money in places where they thought it was going to further the ability to make the machines, and it just didn't happen. So now when your back's up against the wall and litigation's come up against you, do you desperately try to just kind of wash your hands of a situation by drumming up enough money to wipe the slate clean with ARA and then go off into the night? or do you actually still have the drive to kind of wipe things clean with ARA, take whatever money is left over and not pay yourself, and then still have to drum up additional monies to try to get another manufacturing go at it for Big Lebowski? At that point, I just think it makes sense to contact American Pinball and be like, listen, you guys have been increasing your – what, Nermal said that the throughput is going to be increased. Oh, yeah. They've got a whole new assembly process. Not assembly process, but they have a whole new building for having three lines. So why don't you contract manufacturer to American Pinball and say, you know, this is the rights that I have, and these are the parts, and here's the ingenuity, and here's what we have. Let's tweak it. Let's get it out. Let's make it dependable. Give me a cut. You guys put the cash in, and I'll take a cut of every machine that's being sold. Let American Pinball figure that out. You could go to a company like Chicago Gaming, but they're concentrating on remakes. Stern Pinball is not going to mess around with this debacle, I don't think. I mean, they've got enough stuff going on.
    29:04
    Spooky Pinball, they're perfectly fine. They've got games in the works. They've got Scott Denise's Game No. 2 coming out. I can't think of another company right now that could take this on. Now, the wild card is Pinball Brothers, and we remember Pinball Brothers as kind of dashing out of the Alien Gate saga. but I'm hearing stuff now, and again, to cite Kaneda's pinball podcast, he was talking about these guys, pinball brothers, have deep pockets, and they want to jump in the game. They want to prove themselves. Do they take on something like Big Lebowski? I would imagine they want to revisit Alien, right? And maybe they've got games on the line. So to me, American Pinball seems like the company to talk to. They've got the financial backing. They've got machines that are for sale. And this could be something that's a huge influx of cash for American pinball, too, because I'll tell you what. In my opinion, we just saw Oktoberfest come out, and that game was, what, $7,500 roughly?
    30:00
    If you get big Lebowskis and you're selling those things for $8,500 or $9,000 and you do a run of 250 of those games, they're all going to sell out. You're not going to be sitting around. Now you're a hero. You tried to fix the fiasco that was going on with the Zidware customer designs with Magic Girl, and that didn't happen. So maybe you're kind of scorned on that happening before. But does it not make sense for them to kind of consider this? Because I just don't think that Barry – and again, this is just looking from an outside perspective. I do not think that he has the business prowess to be able to pull all this together on limited funds that are going to be coming in after paying off ARA and having money left over. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up. All right, so let's take the litigation fees for the last two years out of it, okay? So let's just say ARA literally charged $8,500 to build these games, eating his profit, which is why he didn't pay that. Obviously, it's probably more than that, but let's just hypothetical this, right? So you're 40 games at $4,000.
    30:58
    You're $160,000, right? I did the math on this while we've been talking. Yeah, okay, so the 40 games that are parked there. Yeah, so you're $160,000 to the good, right? To refund, you know, let's say that just to refund people and just to break even and try and wash your hands and everybody leaves happy, right? You're not making everybody whole. No, no. You had the license fee that had to be paid out. You had travel expenses. I mean, they're so far, in my opinion, like so far in the red. I don't see how selling these games at 12.5 and paying ARA and then taking the difference and being able to further the manufacturing makes any sense. And that's where I would be most concerned is that, you know, where, again, where the intentions might be there. And supposedly he had, when I say he, I say Barry had consulted with his financial advisor and he looked at the numbers and everything looks good. Does it look good to get him out of the red personally or does it look good for him to get out of the red and get a company into the black and bring pinball machines to those that are owed pinball machines and then be able to sell pinball machines on a whole new manufacturing platform? Yeah, that's a very loose statement. It's more of an uphill battle than when they started originally with all the startup money, and they weren't able to make it work. So now why are you paying off all this debt and then being able to make this all work? I guess you learn from your mistakes. I'm hopeful for it. We talked about it last week on Drain It or Save It, and I said, you know what? I'm going to save this because I want to see these early achievers be made whole, but I'd be very cautious and very skeptical about what's going on with this entire situation. In my mind, it doesn't completely add up. Yeah, they're skating on a frozen lake in the middle of spring. Very sketchy, man. What do you think happens when it's all said and done? Let's fast forward one year. What happens?
    32:38
    30 of the 40 games shipped, 10 of them were incomplete, and they go bankrupt. Okay. I mean, I don't see how they're going to pull this off, unless they had a company literally backing the entire game, putting out all the parts and saying, listen, for every game we sell, we'll give you $200 or $500 or whatever fee because a lot of the engineering is kind of done already on the game. But other than that, dude, I don't see how it's going to fly. I agree. Unless they go to outside manufacturing, contract manufacturing, and again, American Pinball would be where I would start. I do not see another Big Lebowski pinball machine ever being made. And those 40 games will be floating around with a surplus of parts that you hope that you can get your hands on because those parts at that point will command a premium. Worth a mint. And if whoever's holding those parts are going to be holding gold, essentially, to keep those games running. Bill Webb would definitely love to purchase a Big Lebowski playfield, though. Okay. Yeah.
    33:34
    Just throwing that out there. All right. I can't own the game, but a playfield might be a little different. Bill's not breaking the hearts of anybody by scoring a playfield, right? Hopefully not. We're going to get some hate mail on that, but that's okay. No, it's good. Let's play some Drain It or Save It. it's time for this week's edition of drain it or save it drain it or save it's brought to you by lermods.com offering you custom quality pinball mods and lighting for your pinball machine l-e-r-m-o-d-s visit lermods.com today and we're gonna do this bill three situations drain it or save it you let me know what you think and the first one is this stern sells more pins in 2020 than all of the other manufacturers combined. Drain that or save that?
    34:20
    I would save that. Really? I would save that. Tell me why. I mean, cause let's look at the manufacturers. I mean, Deep Roots the wild card. If they come out with their games and they're a hit, they could blow the doors off of or they could put an impact in the marketplace You got American Pinball you know that due for a couple games next year Jersey Jack Pinball You got Suncoast Pinball that thrown their hat in the ring You've got potentially the Big Lebowski coming back. You've got Chicago Gaming Company that might have Cactus Canyon. You've got a lot of manufacturers all going up against one, and we're tallying all the sales from all the companies versus the powerhouse, the mothership, Stern Pinball. Yeah, me too, man. I'm saving that too. You know, Woz, when they released numbers on Woz, they've made 4,000 Wozes up to a couple months ago or whatever that was.
    35:10
    I'm pretty sure Stern does more than that in a year. Way more than that in a year. So then you figure, what are they going to sell, 1,000 Oktoberfests? Right? If they sold 1,000 Oktoberfests, I think that would be a hugely successful run of Oktoberfests. And I'm being generous with that number. So your 5,000 games. I think they need to sell 1,000 of game three. Probably not Oktoberfest. So CGC, let's say they, what, sold 2,000 or 3,000? Yeah, I would say they sell somewhere between 1,500 and 3,000 pins, right? CGC. I mean, you're still a little late there. Okay. So you're saving that. I'm going to save it, too. And it's funny because you think about when Tiger Woods was in his prime, right? And he would go into an event. Maybe he's at the Masters. And you were going to gamble. And this is how you gambled. You either took Tiger Woods or you took the field. The field meaning every other golfer. That was your 50-50 split. You either bet on Tiger or you bet the field. It's the same thing with Stern Pinball. Stern Pinball right now is Tiger Woods. Yeah. Okay. So you either bet on Stern Pinball or you bet on the field. Because, I mean, that's just kind of what it is in my opinion. So I'm going to save the fact that Stern Pinball sells more pins. But Nike don't make a pinball shoe. No, not yet. Not yet. We'll see what happens.
    36:21
    Number two, American Pinball reveals game number three by October 31st of this year. Drain it or save it. Do we see another release before Halloween by American Pinball? Who right now, the ride and the sales of Oktoberfest. Release or games being shipped? Release. We see another game revealed. Do we see? All right, let's change it. Let's change it to. Okay, so another game revealed. Revealed, yes. Shipped, no. Okay, so you're going to drain the reveal or save the reveal and drain the shipping. Yes. Okay. That's a two-part online. I'm going to save this. I'm going to say that we do see another game revealed before October 31st by American Pinball. And as far as shipping goes, I am going to have to think about that, because when I was thinking about this, I was thinking more about the reveal, so I didn't kind of prepare myself for that thought process. But I'm going to save the fact that they reveal something before October 31st. See how I skipped out of that? You like that? Well, here, we'll go back into some of these, because I want to add some. Well, go ahead. Go ahead right now. I mean, we've got a third one on the docket. Let's get through the third one, and then we'll come back. The third one is this. Willy Wonka will eventually be Jersey Jack Pinball's biggest seller, topping Wizard of Oz. Drain it or save it. I would have to save that. So you think Willy Wonka will outsell Wizard of Oz? Absolutely. You have more options for Wonka than you did Wizard of Oz. Okay.
    37:40
    I'm going to drain that, and the only reason that I would is if those games started at the same price at the same time, I think Willy Wonka could do it. but when Wizard of Oz was introduced and you can get those for $6,500, it was a lot of money at the time. Early adapters, early adapters. Yeah, but they just sold so many pinball machines, and that game's been run so many times. What I think eventually will happen, and it's not because Willy Wonka's not a good pinball machine, because you know that I'm fond of the game, and I like to play it, and it's a good pinball overall experience for me, but I think we're going to see something else that comes out at some point that wows people, whether it be the rumored Guns N' Roses or the rumored toy story, and then that starts dipping into Willy Wonka sales. So at that point, the game becomes watered down when Wizard of Oz had the stage to itself. So I think Wizard of Oz, when it's all said and done, is Jersey Jack's biggest seller, at least for the time being, on drain it or save it. So I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to drain Willy Wonka being Jersey Jack Pinball's biggest seller, topping Wizard of Oz. But before we cover these again, did you want to go back to anything real quick? Yeah, so, I mean, let's think about all the manufacturers now. So, you know, right now this year, JJP's run the Olympic Road, finished up Pirates, and now they're on the Wampas, right? So you're essentially just three games into this year.
    39:00
    CGC, they're still trying to just run the Monster Bashes. American Pinball, they're just doing Oktoberfests. And then you got Stern. They're going to be coming out with their new game next week or the next couple of weeks.
    39:13
    How many games are they making right now? On any given week, you can see like six different games going into boxes. So it doesn't matter if, you know. How many pins do you think Stern makes in a year, if you had to guess, to me? I don't know. 15,000. I would say 10 to 15. Okay.
    39:30
    But, so, I mean, they have the advantage there. They just have such a menu of games that it doesn't matter what's on the line. Right. You know, you can get Star Trek still.
    39:39
    Deadpool's. There's rumors now Game of Thrones may be going back on the line, right? because right now, as we talk, there's a code update that's being streamed on Game of Thrones, and Dwight Sullivan's in there, and he's walking everybody through it. Jack Danger is revealing another code update. So does that drive sales for Game of Thrones? Does that go back on the line? I could see it driving up youth prices, in all honesty. Well, we'll see. So that's my opinion on that one. Okay. Well, fair enough. Let's sum it up here today with Train It or Save It brought to you by LearnMods.com. The first item or the first topic that we talked about, Stern sells more pins than all the other manufacturers combined in 2020. We both saved that. American Pinball reveals game number three by October 31st. We both saved it, but Bill's draining the fact that they are going to be able to ship that before October 31st. And you know what? I'm going to agree with you. I think at that point, October 31st is too soon for that to be. But if they reveal something in October, I could see something shipping kind of first quarter of next year. Yes. Dude, even if you hit that 90-day mark, like Jersey Jack did, 90 days pushes it into 2020. 90 days is my cutoff where I started losing a little bit of interest. And then the third item was Willy Wonka eventually being Jersey Jack Pinball's biggest seller, topping their current biggest seller, Wizard of Oz. Bill saves that, and I drain it, and that's Drain It or Save It by LearnMods.com. So, Bill, why don't we go to your corner here before we wrap this up, because we've got to get streaming here pretty soon. We're going to go back on Willy Wonka to try to make it Jersey Jack Pinball's biggest seller. No, I'm kidding. Absolutely. He's going to play some pinball, right? And I love both games, Wonka and Woz. You had a couple changes to the game room that had happened over the last several days. So I did, yeah, Friday. Last week I was talking with a gentleman in St. Louis, and he was coming up to Chicago. He had a Ghostbusters Pro. And, you know, that's been one game that's been eluding me for a while. Yes. That and Big Lebowski. Yeah, that will continue to be the unicorn. A little easier to get to Ghostbusters Pro, I imagine. Yeah, just a little bit. Right. So got Ghostbusters Pro. Loving it. Had, I don't know, probably like 15 or 20 games over the weekend, which was great. And then Transformers is leaving on Wednesday. And I got a Jurassic Park that I'm working on right now as well.
    41:55
    Whirlwind should be leaving in mid-August. And in its place, a Monsters Pro is coming. And probably something else. You're a stern fanboy, I think.
    42:04
    You know what? I'm just getting the themes that really appeal to me right now. I was totally just kidding.
    42:10
    You didn't freaking sound like it. What a fanboy, man. You know what? I like what I like. Right. Why don't you get a family guy and what else? Well, actually. No, I'm kidding. Oh, seriously? I was like, oh, my gosh. Okay. No. But, yeah, so really digging that, looking forward to Munsters, and really kind of just trying to line out the game room before my son's born with, like, nice, newer stuff. Yeah, right, right. So, I mean, other than that, that's about it, man. Just getting JP kind of ironed out. Good deal, man. I'm in the process right now of trying to convert my garage to a game room. And right now the studio that I have downstairs facilitates pins for streaming. It facilitates kind of our podcast studio. And it's worked out well. The problem being I have not had an easy way to kind of get games up and down those stairs because I have two landings that are narrow without calling in the help of my buddies. So what I'm hoping to do here is by converting that garage over, insulating it, and putting a mini split for heating and air, putting flooring down, being able to control the climate. I want to be able to have easy access in and out with pinball machines. I would like to talk about this in another show because when I had teased it before on a prior show, I had a few people that reached out and asked for us to cover the topic because they were considering something different. And also, I'd like to get some ideas because I'm sure there are things that I'm thinking that could be done easier or just shouldn't be done at all. So for those of you, if you've converted a garage to a game room and take into consideration, we're in Chicago, so we've got climate swings where in the wintertime it could be minus 30 and in the summertime it could be 105, humidity from zero to 100. And that's what I kind of have to deal with. If you've done one of these and you've got some advice, please email us at specialonelitpinballpodcast at gmail.com. Discuss what you decided and why you did it, and we'd like to talk a little bit about that on a future show. So other than that, I think we're going to wrap up Episode 61. And it's always fun podcasting out of here. Studio B tonight. So if we've got a little bit of a different sound quality, it's because we're in the layer of Steve Beattie tonight. Yeah, great times, though. And on that note, I think we're going to call it a day, right? Yeah, we'll call it a day. Everybody, thanks for listening. Again, if you want to reach out to us, specialwhenlitpinballpodcast at gmail.com. You can reach us on Facebook, Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. and if you want to see a stream on Twitch for the Flippin' Out Pinball channel, it's Flipp the letter N out pinball. It's all one word, Flippin' Out Pinball on Twitch. Go ahead and check us out. We're streaming the newest games. We've got live chat set up so you can actually call in and talk to the guests, talk to ourselves about pinball. You can converse and chat. It's been a really fun time. I want to thank LearnMods.com for sponsoring the Drain It or Save It segment. And as we get into fall, guys, we've got some crazy plans for Expo. One more thing. If you are a pinball media outlet, and by media outlet I mean are you offering pinball content, whether that be by the way of YouTube, whether that be podcasting, whether that be streaming, and you'd like to take part in a little something special at Expo this year in October, I need you to email me at specialwhenlitspinballpodcast at gmail.com and let me know who you are, what you bring to the hobby, because we've got something that's going to be a little bit outside of the box planned for Pinball Expo this year, and the entire pinball media is invited. So it's exciting, and I'm looking forward to sharing that with everybody. It should be a good time, yeah. But we can't reach out to everybody. We can't. That would be physically impossible for us to do that. There's just too many people for us to do that. Right, right. And, you know, if you're offering content, let us know because we've got enough spots where we can fill a pretty nice little idea that we have going on. And we've been working with Rob Burke, the show promoter, over at Expo this year. And, again, we're thinking outside of the box. We're furthering pinball. We're championing pinball. And we want to make sure that those of you that are doing the same are getting, you know, a little bit more of an additional outlet to kind of get the word out there because all in all, at the end of the day, it's what we're all aspiring to do. For Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.