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The Pinball Show Ep 44: In The Air Tonight

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·2h 23m·analyzed·Dec 28, 2020
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TL;DR

Ken Cromwell discusses TPN's founding, defends against profit allegations, and addresses unresolved conflict with unnamed pinball figure.

Summary

Ken Cromwell returns as co-host to The Pinball Show for a long-form conversation about the origins and early challenges of The Pinball Network (TPN). The hosts discuss holiday gifts, Chris Chandler's departure as Deep Root correspondent, the founding of TPN as a passion project rather than profit venture, Ken's Special When Lit podcast legacy, and address persistent criticism that TPN is motivated by financial gain. A significant portion covers alleged character assassination and false narratives created by an unnamed prominent pinball figure early in TPN's launch, which the hosts describe as deeply hurtful and unmotivated by any apology.

Key Claims

  • The Pinball Network has achieved a quarter million listens in 11 months since conception

    high confidence · Direct statement from Zach Minney: 'Yeah, that's incredible. TPN is doing quite well' and Ken confirms 'Yeah, absolutely'

  • Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb created Special When Lit podcast in July 2018, missing only one week in 89 episodes

    high confidence · Ken states: 'It was the 4th of July weekend in 2018. And anybody that's probably listened to the show knows the backstory' and 'I don't know that we had missed a week in maybe 89 episodes'

  • TPN was started as a passion project without profit motive or business model

    high confidence · Ken: 'we weren't planning on running it as a business. This was something that we were doing because we were having fun' and Zach: 'anything I'm attached to...whether it be advertising...we wanted to respect the community'

  • Deep Root's Raza sales numbers show suspicious pattern where recent order numbers are all divisible by three

    medium confidence · Chris Chandler segment: 'American pinball coder Joe Schober...noted that the most recently shared order numbers were all divisible by three' but 'Joe himself admits that we really don't have enough data points to say for sure'

  • Project Pinball Charity 24-hour stream raised over $50,000 for children's hospitals with a dollar-for-dollar match from Adam Schwartz

    high confidence · Ken: 'You created a 24-hour stream, Ken Cromwell, that raised over $50,000 for children's hospitals' and 'there was a huge dollar for dollar match from Adam Schwartz'

  • An unnamed prominent pinball figure created false narratives about TPN's intentions during its launch

    high confidence · Ken: 'I've had a lot of time to kind of think and digest this, whereas if somebody comes to me and has a discussion and apologizes for something like that' and 'I never received an apology, whether it be personal or public'

  • TPN receives no advertising revenue from its podcasts

    high confidence · Zach: 'I don't hear any advertising on any of the TPN podcasts. We wanted to respect the community enough that anything I'm attached to'

Notable Quotes

  • “TPN is doing quite well, and the group here is having fun, and I think they've built friendships out of TPN because of it. So mission success.”

    Zach Minney @ ~34:00 — Direct assessment of TPN's success and impact on community relationships

  • “We weren't planning on running it as a business. This was something that we were doing because we were having fun and we thought that we could also help people and we would work together with people that we might not have been able to do so in the past.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~45:00 — Core mission statement clarification addressing business vs. passion project debate

  • “It seems to me that it would take less effort, okay, for this person to be the supportive person that he claims to be versus working so hard behind the scenes to essentially create roadblocks when somebody starts to get recognition for their efforts.”

    Zach Minney @ ~72:00 — Interpretation of unnamed figure's motivations for alleged character assassination

  • “I've never done anything just to try to cause harm. I don't care. I always tell people that I wouldn't do shit like that to my worst enemy in life. It's not humane. It's not a cool thing to do.”

    Zach Minney @ ~75:00 — Moral stance on community conflict and contrast with unnamed figure's alleged behavior

  • “I never received an apology, whether it be personal or public, for an attempt at a character assassination from all of us. And that's why, ultimately, I just kind of... it's like I'm not motivated to work with that individual ever again.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~68:00 — Unresolved conflict and explanation for permanent relationship rupture

  • “For sure it did. You know that it did. I know that it did. Your prior guests with Greg Bone and Jason Fowler expressed a lot of the same sentiments... I don't know that I've ever felt so disappointed and stressed out over some false narratives that were being created at the time.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~60:00 — Personal impact of alleged false narrative campaign on TPN founders

  • “This ring makes me feel horrible because when I wake up in the morning and I check my app, basically it says, You slept ridiculously bad last night. You should probably not try to move today so that you can recover. And it just gets me demotivated right off the bat.”

Entities

The Pinball Network (TPN)organizationKen CromwellpersonZach MinneypersonSpecial When Lit Pinball PodcastmediaChris ChandlerpersonDeep Root Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: TPN explicitly operates without advertising revenue or profit-sharing model despite persistent community speculation; founders reject business-oriented criticism as misunderstanding core mission

    high · Ken: 'it certainly doesn't make me money no I spend money'; Zach: 'no advertising on any of the TPN podcasts. We wanted to respect the community enough'

  • ?

    community_signal: Unresolved interpersonal conflict between TPN founders and unnamed 'prominent figurehead in pinball' involving alleged false narratives and character assassination without apology; described as causing ongoing stress and permanent relationship rupture

    high · Ken: 'I never received an apology, whether it be personal or public' and 'it's not motivated to work with that individual ever again'; Zach: 'attempt at a character assassination from all of us'

  • ?

    community_signal: TPN achieving 250k listens in 11 months demonstrates strong community adoption of multi-podcast network model focused on collaboration and relationship-building rather than profit extraction

    high · Zach states 'Yeah, that's incredible. TPN is doing quite well' with quarter million listens metric

  • ?

    event_signal: Project Pinball Charity 24-hour stream organized by Ken Cromwell successfully raised $50k+ for children's hospitals with corporate matching support, demonstrating community capacity for organized philanthropy

    high · Ken: 'You created a 24-hour stream, Ken Cromwell, that raised over $50,000 for children's hospitals' with 'dollar for dollar match from Adam Schwartz'

  • ?

    community_signal: TPN successfully built friendship networks and collaborative relationships among pinball content creators, achieving stated mission of 'camaraderie' and 'friend-family unit' across multiple podcast shows

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.430

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:10
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
0:33
It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Welcome to the Pinball Show, episode 44. We're back, and your host here is very excited. I have a co-host that makes me very, very happy.
0:59
This is one of my best friends. He's a co-founder of the Pinball Network. He's a pinball charity philanthropist, like no other. And he is one big pinball ambassador.
1:13
He's a pinball personality and creator of the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. In my opinion, he is one of the greatest and major voices in this pinball hobby. I know that you're dying to hear him come back to the show. Ladies and gentlemen, Ken Cromwell.
1:39
Hey, what's going on? I'm Tim Ballway. What's up, Zach? You know what's funny? I called you this morning because I thought I left my toothbrush over at TPN before I left. So I'm here to pick it up, and now we're recording. So I'm so very happy to be here, man. Thank you for the invitation. It's been a long time since we've been able to do this. So it's going to be fun. Whenever you call me now, I just require it to be over Skype and with mic ready. So sorry for throwing this on you, but your toothbrush is right over there. There it is. It wasn't even a bad breakup, but, you know, I had to move along and I forgot some of my belongings. So it's good to be back and collecting. And while we're here, let's knock out a podcast. Oh, yes. But first, I've got to know, how did you spend your Christmas? You know, so Christmas was actually pretty good. And not to bore everybody, but we got together with some family. We were as careful as we could be. But, you know, with Christmas, it's the one day of the year, Christmas Eve at least, where my entire family is together. And it's become an annual thing.

  • Joe Katz from JJP's software team acquired a PlayStation 5 and was impressed by the controller's haptic feedback

    high confidence · Ken: 'Joe Katz actually picked up a PS5...he says the most impressive thing...is the feedback that's in the controller'

    • Zach Minney @ ~8:00 — Humorous anecdote about Aura Ring health tracker, illustrates casual conversation tone

    Greg Bone
    person
    Jason Fowlerperson
    Bill Webbperson
    Project Pinball Charityorganization
    Joe Katzperson
    Dennis Creaselperson
    Craig Bobbyperson
    Adam Schwartzperson
    Jersey Jack Pinball (JJP)company
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Straight Down The Middle (SDTM)media

    high · Zach: 'the group here is having fun, and I think they've built friendships out of TPN because of it. So mission success'

  • ?

    community_signal: Chris Chandler departing as Deep Root correspondent may signal either burnout from volunteer content creation or transition to new industry role; praised as 'class act' despite exit

    medium · Chris's farewell correspondence: 'I felt that the end of 2020 was a good time for me to pass the Deep Root correspondent torch' and hosts' emotional response praising his contributions

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Suspicious pattern detected in Deep Root Raza order numbers where all recent shared numbers are divisible by three; flagged by experienced coder Joe Schober but acknowledged as insufficient data for confirmation

    medium · Chris Chandler: 'the most recently shared order numbers were all divisible by three' but 'Joe himself admits that we really don't have enough data points to say for sure'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: TPN founders experienced significant emotional trauma during launch phase due to alleged false narrative campaign; while acknowledging time has passed, unresolved apology keeps wound open in ongoing way

    high · Ken: 'I've never felt so disappointed and stressed out over some false narratives' and 'the fallout was completely unfair'; describes experiencing 'wind knocked out of you' sensation

    • 2:39
    You know, so it was nice to see everybody. You kind of wish it was under a little bit better circumstances where you're a little bit more comfortable. But, you know, everything aside or considered, it worked out really well. What did you guys do? Well, what was your favorite gift that you received? You know, I don't know that I received anything that was amazing this year, but it's the thought that counts. Well, my wife taught me something.
    3:05
    That's tougher. I didn't get shit. Right. Well, it was interesting. Somebody gave me a wet dry vac, a cordless wet dry vac, which I was like, okay, I guess I could kind of use this to vacuum out the car. The problem is it doesn't come with the battery or the charger, so the battery and the charger is going to cost $180. bucks. So that's kind of the gift that keeps on taking. And it is what it is. My wife got me this thing. It's called the Aura Ring. And you put this thing on and it kind of keeps track of your health vital stats throughout the day. So it's telling me what kind of physical activity I am taking part in every single day, which is surprisingly low. It tells me how well I'm sleeping. And I'm a very bad sleeper for whatever reason. I just I can't stay settled throughout the night. I'm up a lot. But this ring makes me feel horrible because when I wake up in the morning and I check my app, basically it says, you slept ridiculously bad last night. You should probably not try to move today so that you can recover. And it just gets me demotivated right off the bat. So that was probably my best gift, something that crushes me on a daily basis. The aura ring, man, I want one of those now. Was it like, did it change colors? Was it like brown all the time for you? No, it's not a mood ring, man. It's the aura ring. It's just like a little, it's kind of like a Fitbit. but instead of it going on your wrist, it goes on your finger, and it gives you a lot more information on a day-to-day basis. So I'm trying to be healthier going into 2021, and I think like everybody, you've got your news resolutions, and I'm ready to rock and roll on mine. But for now, it's still kind of the holidays, and I'm having my fun, and we'll see where it takes us. But that being said, let's get back to you. What happened over at Flippin' Out Pinball, Zach and Nicole, many residents? I will get into it. I still want to talk about that ring. But I'll tell you more about the ring off. One ring. I'm going to rule them all. The ring. I wish I had received the Lord of the Rings. That would have been nice. You've had one before.
    4:56
    We celebrated with family, and it was quite nice. Actually, it was a good – I tried to totally take a break. A little bit of editing here and there, but it was really nice. I was able to get rid of that damn elf on a shelf. So, you know what? That is truly the gift that keeps on giving until next December. I was glad to see that asshole leave the premises or, should I say, shoved into a box and placed up into my workbench cabinet. So she's gone. Good riddance. My daughter was terrorized by the elf. We use the elf on a shelf as like a deterrent, not as celebrating the holiday. We would make that elf stalk my daughter when she was doing anything wrong. And to this day, she is a little bit unsettled on the elf in the shelf, and it's been shelved, so to speak. Oh, I see what you did there. So we did that. I'm trying to think. Gifts-wise, we're able to give away a lot of gifts to the family. I saw. You were Pinball Santa all year round, and I'm waiting for my text to come through that shows me what console I'm receiving from Flippin' Out Pinball this year. Shout-out to Dennis Creasel. I regretfully he's not here because it's his off week. So, miss you, Dennis. Yeah. Oh, update for the listeners. His Xbox did come in earlier than planned. And so we've got that Xbox Series X in the mail shipping out to Dennis as we speak. That's amazing. You had done an episode a few weeks back about all the trials and tribulations that you go through to try to get the Xbox Series X. I was going through the exact same thing. And the Walmart checkout system is so disappointing on so many levels. Just when it makes you think that you've got that Xbox Series X, you get that little pop-up and you know that you just wasted a good ten minutes of your time. It almost sounds like you went through the same thing, Ken. I went through the exact same thing. We were actively trying to get one for the kids, but it didn't work out. But that's okay. Did anybody at the office over at JJP, did anybody get one of the new consoles? Yeah, so Joe Katz actually picked up a PS5. He had reordered. You know, Joe Katz is in software over at JJP. And so, yeah, he had one. He's having a really good time with it. He says the most impressive thing for his PlayStation 5 is the feedback that's in the controller. And he says that it kind of changes the whole way in which you experience gaming. And so he's really pleased with it. But we had several of us that were looking for consoles, not to flip, but to try to get some gaming in before the holidays. So I'm hoping stock will kind of open up a little bit here since we're post-holiday season. Well, ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here. One of the next couple of Jersey Jack pinball machines will have haptic feedback. How about that? Thank you, Joe. Hit the flipper buttons, right?
    7:31
    Actually, not a bad idea. That's not a bad idea. Yeah, so overall, holidays went really well. I received some really cool gifts. My favorite gift was one that I received from Nicole, and it was courtesy kind of of Chelsea Bone. Chelsea Bone is Greg Bone's wife, for those of you familiar with the Bones, from Straight in the Middle. She had compiled, it probably took her 10 to 20 hours, Ken, compiling a book that did a screenshot of every one of the SDTM episodes we've ever done as a memory keepsake with the title of the episode, a shot from that, when it aired, when we were able to get sponsored, just a fully detailed book. And Nicole and Chelsea, Nicole got me one as well as Chelsea got Greg one. That was really cool. That is really cool. That was really thoughtful. So if I'm looking for a good cry, I can read that every time this year. That's time capsule. Ask. That's something that you can always kind of look back on. I like that. Absolutely. Some of those tears are happy tears and some of them are sad tears. But we'll get into that here. Right. Exactly. Well, I thought it would be fun, Ken, before we jump into some of the news. I don't know if we have correspondence. How are the old correspondents? Oh, those were your boys. It's always good hearing from the correspondents. Yes. Those are your boys. They're doing well. Good. They're doing well. You had a tighter, more coherent shift than I can run over here. That's what you're so damn good at. I don't know about that. Yeah, it's true. True story. But they're doing well, I think, for the most part. I had gone back recently. I was driving in the car, and, you know, every so often I'll think about Special When Lit and when we used to host the show, myself and Bill Webb. Sure. And every so often, maybe every month or two, I'll just randomly go back and I'll select an episode. I'll just kind of listen because it's fun to kind of reflect. And it's also kind of interesting to see what was being discussed at that time whenever I click on an episode. And it was the first episode that Craig Bobby had come on. Okay. And to listen to the transformation from a first-time Craig Bobby to the Craig Bobby that we all know today, it's quite a transformation. So he's become quite the personality. He's growing right in front of our eyes, Ken. He is. How far will he go? We shall wait and see. Perfection. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    9:57
    Chris Chandler here with your latest in the world of deep root. It seems like sales of Raza are taking off, as order numbers shared on Pinside indicate they've sold nearly 200 pins.
    10:08
    Or have they? American pinball coder Joe Schober, also known as Ferret on Pinside, Tilt Forums, and other places, channeled his inner Rain Man and noted that the most recently shared order numbers were all divisible by three. Does this mean Deep Root is gaming their order numbers?
    10:27
    We really can't tell, and Joe himself admits that we really don't have enough data points to say for sure. It's simply just an interesting coincidence for now. But we all know how the pinball community, and especially those following J-Pop and Deep Root, love a conspiracy theory. Either way, folks only have until the end of the year to get their Raza orders in. Speaking of the end of the year, I felt that the end of 2020 was a good time for me to pass the Deep Root correspondent torch. I want to thank Bill and Ken for welcoming me on board during the special and lit days, and for Zach and company at TPN for bringing me along for the ride. It's really been fun, and I've enjoyed meeting so many awesome people in the pinball community. I'm also thankful for Robert and all the folks at Deep Root, like Steve Bowden, Quinn Johnson, Craig Rushforth, and Sean Gibson, who were kind enough to let me into the world of Deep Root and take a peek at what they've been passionately working on all these years. I know I speak for many when I say we all eagerly wait to see what next they have in store. I eagerly look forward to putting this pandemic in the rearviews so we can all raise a glass in person, play some dollar games, and geek out over this shared hobby we all love so much. Signing off as your Deep Root correspondent, this is Chris Chandler.
    11:44
    As an update listener, we received this correspondence from Chris Chandler after Ken and I had already recorded, so we weren't able to discuss how proud and thankful we are of Chris Chandler being a part of both Special Win Lit and the Pinball Show, the Pinball Network. Chris, you've always been a class act man, and I can't express in words what you have meant to the TPN crew here and Dennis and I in particular. We all know that you were Dennis' favorite correspondent, and in many ways mine as well. we wish you the best in the future and as I've told you privately if you ever get that itch to record something again please please let us know we would love to consider you always an alumni of the pinball network love you buddy and sincerely thank you again Chris Chandler everybody I thought we would continue we had Greg Bone on Jason Fowler coming on a couple weeks ago because they were some of the founders of the pinball network, but even more so, Ken Cromwell, this started, this TPN thing started as you and I's baby. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We've been talking about that since a couple TPFs ago. Years now. And I don't know, the stars just felt like they were aligning for us, and we were just, I don't want to speak for you, but it felt like we were just getting tired of some things, and we wanted to really celebrate friendship and other things. So it made sense for us to segue into something new, a new fresh project in TPN for us. And you and I reached out to the other founders there. And we thought we were doing something fun. We're doing something honest and something that would benefit the industry for years to come. And for the most part, we have achieved that. And I haven't even updated you, Ken. And where are we at? 11 months from conception of this thing? Yeah, that's incredible. Yep. I absolutely commend you on your perseverance because it wasn't without roadblocks that you were able to kind of bring the network where it's at today. And let's not joke. Fucking holes in the road. Have you ever seen those memes where the car just goes into a large hole? You know what? I spend enough time on social media now. I try to forget some of the memes that I've seen over the years. But no, after 11 months, I think we're at a quarter of a million listens already. Yeah, that's incredible. TPN is doing quite well, and the group here is having fun, and I think they've built friendships out of TPN because of it. So mission success. But let's talk about where you've been. Where are they now? Ken Cromwell edition here. You got into pinball. I think you've been in pinball longer than I have. But you started special when lit. Oh, how long ago has it been? Yeah, it was 2018. It was the 4th of July weekend in 2018. And anybody that's probably listened to the show knows the backstory, so I'll just briefly summarize. It was myself and Bill Webb. After we met, we would have conversations on the phone daily that would be anywhere between 30 minutes and hours. Bill does a lot of driving with his job, and at the time I was working from home. So it was a great conversation and banter because we felt so passionately about pinball, and we both still do. So to be able to kind of have those conversations that we had and be able to air them and kind of give the listener, you know, an opportunity to kind of listen in on our conversation. That was the whole goal of the podcast. And people love that thing, man. People love Special One Lift. They still talk about it. Yeah, it's very humbling because we didn't see the show as something that would bring in a ton of listens. And I think, in fact, at one point we said, you know what, if we can get 50 people to listen to us on a weekly basis, then it'll be something that will be fun going forward. and, you know, the numbers surpassed that. So it was fun. It was a lot of hard work on both ends. I mean, you know more than I do about how hard it is to kind of keep something going on a consistent schedule. You've got your hands in a lot of different – I like cookie jars. Do you like cookie jars? I love cookie jars. Yeah, but, I mean, it's an undertaking. And at one point, I mean, I don't know that we had missed a week in maybe 89 episodes. We might have missed one week. So that was something that I was proud of. And I do miss it. I'm happy with where I'm at now, and I've met a lot of awesome people, and I correspond with a lot of people that I've never met that I consider friends, and that's the true benefit of that. And that's where TPN was so important, because when we wanted to kind of continue bringing additional people inside of a circle of people that wanted to work hard and collaborate to help create additional exposure of the hobby, TPN made a lot of sense. And I think now we're seeing the residuals of that hard work, because think about how many more people now have an outlet for their creativity.
    16:37
    And some people that may or may not have been discovered are given a platform on TPN. And it's about teamwork. It's about working together to bring somebody up and then be there for them throughout their time that they want to be creative pinball content. So, I mean, and that was kind of the mission statement of the Pinball Network. Now, the great thing was this, too, right? We were so close friendship-wise going into it that it just, it was a really easy transition. and it was exciting. It would almost be like starting a small business with some of your best friends. The difference being we didn't start TPN with the drive to want to profit or make money. It wasn't about that. So that's why some of the decisions that we made might have been criticized because, well, if you were running this like a business, you would have done this. You would have secured the website, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it's like, well, thanks for pointing that out because we weren't planning on running it as a business. This was something that we were doing because we were having fun and we thought that we could also help people and we would work together with people that we might not have been able to do so in the past. So, you know, could things have been handled differently? Sure. But, again, it wasn't a business that we were starting. And let me ask you this because I hear this come up from time to time just because we're on the topic of a business. Sure, sure. I hear sometimes there's commentary where, you know, you're behind TPN and it's because it makes you money. And I know we've had conversations about this in the past. and uh but in in all fairness do you think that tpn or any of the pinball content involved in tpn i mean does it really correlate to cash in your pocketbook where you're living a different lifestyle because of the cash that's generated from the pinball network lifestyles the pinball podcasting right no um that is a good question i wasn't expecting that well it certainly doesn't make me money no I spend money I like spending money and that's what I figured I like spending money on shit that I like and people that I like and industries that I like so no it doesn't I think people do think that and sometimes that hurts but it's people, people are shitty people are great, people are everything I can see I think the perception that people may have of that But it just tells me that they just don't have the facts. They don't know. They're just blindly going in with their mouths open, their ears closed. And there's too much of that in general anyway, people that have perceptions. I get it. And listen, for the listener that's consuming this right now, this isn't something that I planned to talk to with Zach. But, I mean, now that it comes up, I think it's important to address, again, we weren't going into it as a business, as a money-making opportunity. And that's why I'm curious, did you ever have an opportunity where you really have made money with TPN, whether it be advertising, which I don't hear any advertising on any of the TPN podcasts. We wanted to respect the community enough that anything I'm attached to, Ken, you know this, listener, you guys probably know this, anything I'm attached to is going to have, for many reasons, there's going to be some curious speculation and eyes attached to me just because I do have a formal business in pinball. So I see where it's coming from. I love that those that are close to me and that truly know me, I might be a host and flamboyant at times, but I think my track record speaks for itself when I truly just want to further pinball because I see myself being in this industry for decades. That's my goal. My goal is to year after year, continually build upon what I can to help about pinball. Now, and look, Zach, it's, it's building relationships. It really, really is. Absolutely. And that, again, was one of the most important things that we discussed in TPN. It's about building relationships and having a support system. And, and do it for whatever, forever reason. I don't know if it's my personality. I feel like I've got to prove something. Like I have to earn respect. I don't know why that is. It might be a character flaw, but I feel like I have to earn respect of people that I'm just trying. I'm trying to give and give. and sometimes people don't perceive it, and it sucks, but I'm always like, man, what else should I bring to this industry? I would rather associate myself with people that are trying to earn the respect of others versus somebody that thinks that they are just deserving of the respect based on reputation. Yeah. So, I mean, for that, I think that's not anything that should be... Indirectly, though, I would love for people to like to support my livelihood because I'm trying to go that extra step. Right. When we started this, remember all the committee conversations where we were like, look, there's no requirement for any sponsorship for anybody, whether it's Flippin' Out or anybody else. There's no requirement for that. If people are interested, I've voiced to all of our providers, if you have any interest in sponsorship for extra resources, please let me know. Nobody's taking me up on that. And I do that for myself selfishly just because I'm putting in the damn work. But no, I sponsor Flippin' Out Pinball sponsors. other pinball media, again, just to try to help my business and also help the industry and those providers that are putting in the time. I just don't like the fact of people putting in passion, dedication, work for others to consume and for them not to be thanked for it or rewarded for it. I'm a big positive reinforcement kind of guy. I just know firsthand from the time that we had met, And actually, the first time that you invited me on a podcast. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's kind of where our relationship started. And the reason that I find a lot of similarities between the two of us and that is, you know, we're competitive, but we strive to do better. And I think it's I know for a fact that it's in both of our nature to want to be able to offer help and assistance. If somebody wants to receive help and assistance, I've been like that, not just in pinball, just in life, you know, whether it be charity or just somebody that's down on their luck. I mean, if I think I can make a difference without imposing myself on them, I'm happy to do that. So, again. You created a 24-hour stream, Ken Cromwell, that raised over $50,000 for children's hospitals.
    22:47
    Listener, does it get any better than that? That was really, really cool. That's a true character right there. And that was Project Pinball Charity. And I think Jason even said the same thing. And to be very honest, that was a community coming together again, working together towards a common goal. and there was a huge dollar for dollar match from Adam Schwartz in New York and that ended up over $50,000. And it was an amazing thing. It's a great personal accomplishment to be playing a small role in that, to be able to organize it as one thing, but to have everybody kind of contribute is huge. And I'm hoping those machines get placed in 2021 because with COVID and whatnot, I'm sure everything's a little bit behind, but I would love to see those machines get placed. Yeah, absolutely. That's what I said at the beginning of the show about your philanthropy and being an ambassador. So that led to something really big. But how did we get there? We started TPN up, and you rode the waves with us, buddy.
    23:43
    There were ups and downs, though, man. There was stress and there was elation, like usually coming within the same 24-hour period. It's true. It didn't go without some difficulties on the kickoff, that's for sure. Well, what does that do to the person's psyche? What does that do to, I mean, you experienced it. Let the listener know. There was elation. There was downsides to it. Did it lead to any stress that seemed to bleed over into other things in your life? For sure it did. You know that it did. I know that it did. Your prior guests with Greg Bone and Jason Fowler expressed a lot of the same sentiments that I could express.
    24:19
    Where you were really looking forward to starting something new, there were obstacles that had arisen. And honestly, in my entire life, I don't know that I've ever felt so disappointed and stressed out over some false narratives that were being created at the time. And there's nothing more frustrating than that because when you're so excited about something and to have kind of that rug pulled out unfairly underneath you, it catches you by surprise. It's almost like you ever get the wind knocked out of you where you still, you know that you're not going to die, but you've got that wind that you can't kind of catch and you're struggling to kind of bring yourself back to where you can kind of function again. It kind of reminded me of that because it was like a pow. Yeah. And that was a little bit tough, especially when, I mean, when that's coming from a prominent figurehead in pinball. I mean, essentially, who carelessly questioned all of our intentions, our reputations, our character.
    25:15
    I don't know. I mean, candidly, it made me call into question what his reputation, character, and what his motives were for kind of creating that false narrative. And really, it was to destroy.
    25:27
    In my opinion, it really, really was. I think it's a fact. Look, as competitive as I am in life, like we were just talking about this, I would never consider creating like a false smear campaign in an effort to keep the attention on myself.
    25:41
    But I think interestingly enough, I think the fallout of that was kind of twofold, whereas it did kind of hurt and hinder us starting off with TPN and the good intentions of some really good people, just good human beings. On the flip side of things, I think it did show some people in the pinball community, I mean, just how kind of ruthless somebody can be when they're trying to maintain a perceived pinball fame and notoriety. opening this curtain, really, maybe there are some problems in pinball that are certainly not the ones that are being thrown up on the surface. And is it worth it, right? Is it worth it? I mean, I learned a lot about this person, and I will say this, I never received an apology, whether it be personal or public, for an attempt at a character assassination from all of us. And that's why, ultimately, I just kind of, I don't mean to talk over you, but it's like I'm just getting excited about it now because I haven't really rehashed this in a while.
    26:40
    And, look, I've had a lot of time to kind of think and digest this, whereas if somebody comes to me and has a discussion and apologizes for something like that, I mean, I'm open to forgiveness. I'm open to kind of maybe looking past it. But when that conversation never happens, it just makes me not motivated to work with that individual ever again. It's hard to get over. It is hard to. It is. What do you say to that about people right now that are saying, well, I've heard it on other podcasts. Get over it. I mean, it's old news. It's blah, blah, blah. Sure. What would you say to that?
    27:09
    Well, I think at the time we didn't really have a choice but to try to get over it as quickly as we could. Because, I mean, at that point we still had a directive, something that we wanted to see fit. But then you have to deal with some fallout, and the fallout was completely unfair. So, sure, I think when you're looking at it from the sidelines, it's easy to say, well, just get past it. And I get it. But I think when you're really involved in it and that comes into your living room and it presents itself and you're living in this room with this unfair picture that's being painted around you, I think you're probably more apt to understand the personal impact that it has. And the funny thing is this, right? It seems to me that it would take less effort, okay, for this person to be the supportive person that he claims to be versus working so hard behind the scenes to essentially create roadblocks when somebody starts to get recognition for their efforts. It seems to be like that's what causes the aggressive nature in my experience with him. And that's why we wanted to create the Pinball Network, Just to show people it can be more than just entertainment. It can be camaraderie. It can be almost like a friend-family unit kind of thing. Everybody get along together and work together towards the common good of increasing exposure and information and fun about pinball. But, yeah, I'm with you. I echo the same sentiments as people know. It just still hurts. Of course it hurts, especially when there's no recognition of wrongdoing there. and you know that it was done in a certain way to bring harm to other people. There's no question. I can honestly say, Ken Cromwell, my entire time in pinball, I've never done that. I've never done anything just to try to cause harm. I don't care. I always tell people that I wouldn't do shit like that to my worst enemy in life. It's not humane. It's not a cool thing to do. Listen, as much hard work that a lot of us put into the hobby or into the industry or whatever you want to call it. One person can't take credit for everything. Okay? The hobby and the industry, it's too small for that. So true. And in my opinion, it's so much more rewarding to kind of support somebody all the way through and then not decide that you're going to start blasting that person when they get too popular for your liking. And the irony here is that this is why we started TPN. It was support for everybody regardless of their reach or their following. It was a true team concept and team effort. I don't want to go too deep down this because it gets crazy, but I am proud of you, especially for being able to weather that whole storm and continuing to persevere. I said it earlier. It's remarkable. I know that your intentions and your heart are always in the right place, and if I wasn't working for a pinball company right now, there's no other place I would rather be than working alongside you and everybody else at TPN. and for that I congratulate you all. It's impressive.
    30:09
    That's unbelievably fine. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, everybody at TPN. I feel the same way about you, but listeners know I'm obsessed with you. But no, I apologize to those guys by association, by proxy. So that same apology goes to you. You know what? Hey, and real quick, I'm still open for that apology. Okay? That's right. If that ever wants to come in at some point, I'm open to listen to it. And, you know, I'm open for forgiveness. Maybe sometimes you don't forget. But that apology never came. And I don't expect it to ever come. And I don't go out of my way to discuss this with people because I don't think that that's fair. Because I don't want to be somebody that is going out of my way to spread negativity about somebody, even if that negativity directly impacted me in a poor way. because I've got more respect for people and their families than that. So I'm open for that apology.
    31:07
    And if it doesn't come, it won't because I'm not surprised. I think we're all open for that type of apology, especially when I hear all the time, why don't you get over it, Zach? Why don't you guys need to work shit out? I'm like, what do I need to work out? What the hell did I do? You know what? I want to say this too, and I think this is important because now I'm working at Jersey Jack Pinball, I think a lot of people know, where sometimes I'm asked to speak on behalf of Jersey Jack Pinball. That doesn't mean that I'm given permission to always be speaking for the company. So anything that we say or talk about here is just a couple people having, best friends having a conversation on a pinball podcast, not necessarily reflecting the opinions of Jersey Jack Pinball or its employees or anybody associated with the company. So a little disclaimer, but I appreciate you giving me an opportunity to kind of discuss this a little bit because let's be honest, and we'll move past this, right, because it is what it is. I've never been able to really hash this out or talk about my side of any of this ever. And it was just, again, it was fighting off punches that were unfairly being thrown. And after 10 months for this still to be on the tip of my tongue where I feel like I can talk about it, I thank you for giving me the outlet to do so. I didn't know you were going to go this route necessarily. I figured when you had Jason on and you had Greg on that we might touch on this, and I probably said more than I thought that I would. But it actually feels better to be able to kind of talk about it a little bit. because it's the truth. And there's nothing more justifying than being able to discuss the truth when there is a whole false narrative that was created back in the past. So thanks. To piggyback off of that, you should be able to do that. I joke around a lot. People know me as somebody that delivers gold jokes, of course, but some bad jokes. I mean, I'm entertaining to some. But it is very important from a very professional perspective and opinion here that I wholeheartedly know the importance of processing trauma, processing past grief, processing things such as this. So if people don't want to hear it, totally fine with that. But again, this is a personal thing. This is a personal thing for me to even do each and every week. So if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it how I enjoy it because this is very cathartic in ways for me too. That's why I have people like Ken Cromwell, one of my best friends on here. And I know he needs some of that resolution, too. So our apologies if you don't like this type of discussion. There are plenty of podcasts that don't talk about this. But, Ken, you know we've talked. I am not going to be someone I'm not. I'm just not going to do it. I'm the same way. If it gets five listens, I don't care. I enjoy doing this. I'm going to keep doing this. And if people listen, that's great. I love when people listen and offer feedback. But if not, I'm not losing any sleep over it. But I've become jaded in a lot of ways, too, though. And I want to be clear, too. I would never go out of my way to badmouth anybody that advocates pinball. But when somebody has a platform and they use that to create a false narrative, I think it's completely within my right after 10 months to express my discontent with that whole situation. And I've done so today. So thank you. It shows how strong that was to begin with in the first place. I feel like I was on your couch there a little bit. I felt like we were doing... We were doing co-therapy there because I was laying right alongside your butt. Right. There are greater things and more interesting things probably to discuss these days. People want to know how in the hell you ended up working for a manufacturer. You go from podcaster that's loved by many to a pretty prominent and large role at a major pinball manufacturer. When and how did that happen? Yeah. I mean, it's a crazy, I mean, I guess it's not a crazy story, but I mean, for me, it was, and this is just for me, right? Sure, yeah. Because I really felt that a little Cinderella story actually had a Cinderella ending for me so far. And it was, you know, working with Bill, especially when lit, and we would have these conversations. It's like, where do you see the podcast going? I mean, and I said from the beginning, I wasn't looking to use the podcast as a platform to get into the pinball industry, But I always thought to myself, hey, if a situation opened up because we kind of had established ourselves in our credibility and, you know, shared a little bit of our backgrounds, if the situation were to present itself where I could work in the industry, it would absolutely be something that I would consider. And long story short when Jersey Jack Pimble and I got word they were relocating from Jersey to Elk Grove Village which is 40 minutes from where I live I thought hey what could it hurt And I reached out to two people and that was Jack Warnery who the founder and part owner of Jersey Jack Pinball And then I reached out to Eric Vigneur because I have established a relationship with Eric. And I just said, hey, guys, look, if something comes up and you think that I'd be a good fit, I'd really like to have a sit-down. I'd like to have a conversation. And it just worked out where I was able to sit down. I was able to sit down with the Abbesses, Brett and Leonard, and we had dinner and Albert Valera, who's the CFO there, and Eric Minier. And we had a dinner and they just kind of wanted to know a little bit about my background, you know, what I could offer to Jersey Jack Pinball. And I was really selling myself, but I was so confident in it because it wasn't something that I was trying to figure out what do I need to say. I knew what I wanted to say. And if that wasn't enough for them to understand that I'd be a benefit to the company, then no harm, no foul. But at least I knew that I spoke from the heart. and as luck would have it, I got a call, went on a second interview and everything went well. So I am, I'm hired on as communication specialist over at JJP. You know, I'm part of the sales and marketing team over there. And Zach, it's been wild. It's been, it's been wild. I'm completely happy. I'm working with great people. I'm working at a, at a great company with great owners. Usually there's somebody at a job because as nice of a guy as I think that I am, there's usually people that I don't click with, and I think that's just natural in humanity, I don't find that problem at work. I guess if I did, I probably wouldn't call them out on a podcast, but honestly, it's just great. I love it. Well, I know just in talking with you, yeah, you do love the team over there. I'm excited about it. That's the thing, man, because I used to work in, I worked from home for 13 years, and I ran a business. And the irony was I was hired on during the start of COVID. So when I was hired on, just when I got a job to work out of the house, I was asked to work from home. So I was like, oh, I'm still here. You jumped in. What title were they working on? Were they working on Guns N' Roses at the time? Was that already kind of in the final late? Where was that at then? Yeah, Eric had Guns N' Roses and the team had Guns N' Roses pretty much wrapped up for the most part when I kind of came on board. And, you know, I was getting my feet wet just kind of figuring out some different marketing strategies for the current titles that were in the library. And I wasn't really concentrating as much on Guns N' Roses because we didn't have a definitive release date. You have to remember the company had moved its manufacturing from Jersey to Elk Grove Village because prior to that, we would have our design team was in Bensonville, Illinois. The manufacturing was in Lakewood, New Jersey. So to be able to bring the manufacturing with the design and engineering team all under one roof, I mean, the benefits of that might not sound important when you're discussing it in general, but when you see the benefits happening on a day-to-day basis, it's unbelievable. So to move that off. That was during a global pandemic. That had happened during the COVID, which we're still, you know, enduring.
    38:47
    Amazing. It's even running. And did it set some things back from a release schedule standpoint? I would imagine it did. But, I mean, think about what happened. They set up a manufacturing plant for pinball machines, got everything staffed. Right now we have, look, we're making machines as quickly but as safely as possible too, right? Because especially in Illinois, there's restrictions that are in place, and we want to make sure that we're adhering, you know, not just to abide by what the state is asking us to do, but, I mean, everybody's health is the most important thing. So to have that set up during pandemic and kind of see, and this is where I think it's cool, to be able to see an empty building kind of grow, a factory be born to make pinball machines, was amazing. In less than a year. In months. Yeah. I mean, in months. What is it like being a podcaster and getting feedback on the content that you create and transitioning into a job, Ken, where you were still providing creative content, advertising, marketing campaigns. Some big, big, some people don't know this, but I'm going to say it. You wouldn't say it. It's a pretty big decision-making at times in this new role, but also similarly receiving feedback from the public. Is it similar? Is it different? Describe that feeling. It's, I mean, it is different just because, you know, back when I was creating my own content and doing it on my own time and on my own dime, you know, I can take feedback and do anything I want with the feedback. I mean, now it's any feedback that's received, you know, whether it be positive, which it is for the most part, and maybe there's some negative here or there. I mean, it's something that you deal with on a case-to-case basis. And, you know, I've always come from the background in any job that I've had. I mean, customer service is number one. The customer is always right. and are they not maybe maybe not I don't know um but you want to make sure you're taking care of the cost right creating content is and I think maybe this is from a time management standpoint there's not as much time for me to create the content that I as I want to create it and that's because there's a lot of additional work that has to be done so I think if if there was one thing that I could wish for it would be that I had a little bit more time and uh to get some things accomplished. I know that everybody that's working, they're taking their jobs home with them. I mean, work is almost a 24-7 thing right now just because of the uncertainty of the schedules. The factory's running right now with no issues. But, you know, some of us that are in the office side of things are in some days, out some days. Again, we're trying to keep everything socially distant and safe. So, yeah, I mean, I wish I had a little bit more time for creative content. And I think that that's kind of my wish or my resolution going into 2021. It's create more content for Jersey Jack Pinball while also fulfilling my obligations from, you know, marketing and marketing side of things. Well, and we love it too, because we've already seen the fruits of your labor in the release of Guns N' Roses, as well as prior marketing for some of the titles like Dialed In for Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory and Into the future now that we're post-reveal and we're into production and sales. We've seen some of that content, a lot of that content come out that you had a big part in. Boy, a fucking Guns N' Roses reveal, though, that you helped orchestrate. Come on, Ken, you've got to feel. People are still talking about it. People are claiming that that was the single greatest release in pinball history. How do you go from a podcaster? I know you're humble, but how do you go from a podcaster to receiving that type of feedback? That has got to feel unbelievable. I couldn't imagine. I think it's important that I'm clear on this. Whereas I did play a small role in a lot of this rollout, there were so many different moving pieces, and there were so many incredible people that we were able to work with to kind of collaborate our efforts to be able to focus on an impactful campaign. And, again, it goes back to I don't think any one person can do it all, and there shouldn't be one person that takes credit for it all. So I want to say that first. But, yeah, to say that the – I mean, look, we've been having these conversations for years, right? How would we roll out a pinball machine? Yes, we have. What would we do different? What's effective? What's not as impactful as it could be? When I got hired on, I mean, that's where I wanted to kind of dig my nails in right away. I want to do – There's those. Well, I wanted to do or take part in a reveal where we didn't maybe follow the status quo. And I think a lot of what we did was different. And I'm glad that the community, for the most part, was accepting of it and appreciated it because I certainly did. And I appreciated everybody's hard work. And I can't wait to see future reveals because there are things that we learn on this reveal. It's kind of like market research going into the next. And for me, it's about not being content, always evolving, always trying to be better than the last. Because once you kind of get content, I think then you have to ask yourself, are you in the right situation? Is this the career that you want to be in? Are you doing a disservice by being content with what you've done?
    44:03
    So I know that we're hungry. If you get too comfortable there. And you're never that way. You're always ready for the next, ready to push harder, ready to push bigger. But that had to have felt good because as hobbyists, you and I would always brainstorm. If we were given the crack at it, here's what we would do different. Here's what other people do, and, jeez, this just doesn't work. Why do they keep doing this? Well, maybe they are just really content, and they don't have to worry about losing this opportunity. But we tried kind of brainstorming what we would do different, and I thought there once or twice we were going to get a crack at doing a reveal as hobbyists, you and I. We got close. Yeah, we did get close on two occasions for sure that I remember. and that's an off the record kind of story when you see us at a show but man, I had to have felt good I was super proud of you just stepping in there being a part of that reveal process and it's selling a shit ton of products this is, and to share with you a little bit and a little bit of the listeners here there were some of the ideas that I was like oh this is going to be incredible I can't wait to pitch this and those we chose not to execute on the back end of things And at the time I was like, I wonder why we're not going to do this. But then as you kind of learn, because I don't know everything, obviously, I'm happy to learn from these people that have been established in the industry and what they expect. And, you know, I think in every instance, something that I had recommended that was ultimately, you know, not chosen to execute was the right call not to do so. So and that's cool, man, because, again, I'm taking this experience. I'm going to go into the next release and just have some fun with it. And it's not all about these pinball releases, right? We've got to make sure that we're keeping all of these titles in the conversation, and I think that's important too. You guys can't build them fast enough. This, from the outside, as a hobbyist, this appears like one hell of a hit for Jersey Jack Pinball. As an authorized dealer, I know this is one hell of a hit for Jersey Jack Pinball. from the industry perspective, are you guys happy with where the sales are for Georgia Jack Pinball's Guns and Roses? Yeah, I think without a doubt. Obviously, companies, for the most part, they don't really disclose numbers, right? So we don't need to get into the specifics. But yeah, I don't think there's any question that everybody's happy with how well the game's been received. Really to kind of see a lot of behind the scenes with Eric and the team over there, it's how they work towards this final game, which is still evolving with code and whatnot. It's amazing to see. It's like a symphony. And all these guys work so very hard. And I can't say that enough. When I walked in, I walked into what I thought was one of the most, if not the most impactful pinball machine that I've ever seen from an enthusiast side of things. I had to take a step back because then I thought to myself, well, am I just excited because I'm working in the industry and I'm drinking this Kool-Aid and I'm seeing this game and maybe I've got blinders on and I kick that around for a little while. But every single time I came back, because I've had a prototype here, a Guns N' Roses, not in this lifetime, only prototype here since like May. So, I mean, I've been playing this game for nine months and with other games in my collection, I find myself still after nine months coming back to Guns N' Roses. And it's because it offers you what I think is so very important in the pinball machine, and that are the pinball moments. I've been talking about pinball moments since I've been blue in the face since July 4th weekend 2018 when we launched Special One Lit. It's one of the games where if you've got your friends coming over, or you've got family to come over, or even people that aren't even into pinball, you're like, come here, I want to show you this. I'm going to start a song, and I want you to watch this game. And it's just jaw-dropping every single time. and this is no joke, right? I still step up to that game and I'll start a song and I'll still get adrenaline and chills playing it because it's just, it's amazing. The game is amazing. It's so exciting to have one of your best friends in the industry because you know how good they are for the industry. That's one of the first things I message. Well, that's nice of you to say, man. Assuming you're discussing, assuming you're talking about me. I'm talking about Joe Katz. Yeah, right. No, I messaged Joe Katz. Joe Katz is awesome. Joe's one of my guys over there. I love Joe. Joe Katz and J.T. Harkey, they're in their back office. And, you know, when I need to come in for my pinball therapy every couple days, those are the guys I go back and I lay on their couch. They talk me through it. J.T. Harkey training up. I messaged Eric and I was like, oh, you guys may not notice it now, but you're going to look back at hiring Ken Cromwell and you're going to be very, very happy with that decision. And I think they already are. Is there anything that you can share? You've talked about having a prototype for a long time, such a cool story. Anything else you can share, Ken, that was very eye-opening coming from the hobbyist experience? Anything just unbelievably eye-opening or just beside-yourself moment where you're like, holy shit? Yeah, I mean, there's probably been several of those. I mean, just to go back to something as simple as manufacturing a pinball machine. Right, we always hear pinball is hard. Pinball is hard. Pinball is super hard. I mean, when I see what is going on on a daily basis, it really gave me another level of appreciation for any company that can get a game out. It's not something where you're going to decide to make a game, and in a couple weeks you're going to set up manufacturing, and games are flying out the door. It just isn't going to happen like that. And if it does, then you need to patent that manufacturing because it's something that I can't even grasp. Manufacturing is very, very, very, very intricate, very complicated to the point where you just wonder who in their right mind tries to manufacture these things and get them out the door. So that was probably the most surprising thing. And it's really cool, man, to be able to step outside of my office at any point during the day and be able to hit the manufacturing floor and kind of walk through. I remember back in the day, well, back in the day, it wasn't that long ago, I would, you know, Dwight Sullivan would invite us in. I'd go in the Stern pinball and, you know, I'd been to Stern so many different times, but every single time we would go in the Stern, Dwight would be like, hey, do you want to take a tour? And never once did I say no because it always fascinated me when I went on those tours. Yeah. And I always really appreciated that. But now to be able to tour at a company which I work for and see, you know, that same level of intricacy and complexity and just see it working every single day, seeing games boxed, going into trucks or containers and going out the door. That's super amazing. Being able to get involved in Guns N' Roses as I came in was, I mean, could it have been any luckier than that? No joke. Could you have gotten a better title? No. And you know what? And the thing is this, being able to work with the band members of Guns N' Roses, their management, agents, publicists, et cetera, to be able to see that side of the industry with... Licensing. Or even the music industry. Yeah. I mean, there are things that are happening where you're like, wow, I never would have thought that or why I didn't consider that or, oh, that's how that works or, oh, that's why that decision is being made. Again, huge eye opening experience. It kind of really gives me another way to appreciate how licenses are obtained, how rights to use different things are being negotiated. It's that side of the industry is amazing. Being able to spend a whole day with, you know, I'll tell you a quick story. You got a second or no? No, I'm here, buddy. I'm sitting on the mat. I love this shit. So, you know, Eric Menier and Slash spoke daily, and they still speak all the time when they were kind of coming up with ideas and different ways to implement parts of aspect of code or modes. And, you know, early on in the design process, Slash had input with Eric. And then to, at one point, just kind of get used to Eric being like, yeah, I got to let me let you go, man. I got to jump on with Slash. I mean, that's just kind of a weird sentence to hear. But then to kind of get used to that. And then at some point, being in the mix with Slash was really fun. I've never been anybody that's been real starstruck with celebrities, so to speak, because a lot of times celebrities and professional athletes, they tend to let you down. So you kind of have this preconceived idea of how somebody is going to be or how they're going to react or how they're going to treat you. You know, I was given a call, and they're like, listen, Slash is going to be in the building on such and such date. We'd appreciate it if, you know, when he comes in, if you can escort Slash from the vehicle and bring him in to here, And if you could set up this area, and then I was setting up a media area because we had local media, national media that was coming into the factory to interview Slash because we were promoing the game. To be able to organize or help organize the media and their schedules, escort them in, introduce them to Slash, be able to kind of oversee what was going on, what was being discussed in those interviews was interesting. Escorting media out, bringing the next media in. watching Slash conduct himself with Eric so professionally, and they were so accepting the interest in answering the questions. And I thought it was genuine because Slash is very excited about pinball. He's an enthusiast about pinball, and to have this game being made with him as a co-designer, I can only imagine it doesn't get any better than that in pinball. And then afterwards, kind of seeing Slash hanging out with the staff and genuinely liking to be in the factory amongst the whole team that helped create the game. And he digs this stuff. Yeah. I mean, and I think maybe Slash's regret was, you know, after spending a good part of the day that he did have another obligation and he left. And, I mean, we were all very grateful of the time that he spent there. But I also think he was grateful of the time that he was able to spend there. And, you know, he's not a stranger to JJP. This isn't his first time coming out. So we expect to see Slash again in the future, and every time he comes, he's going to be a welcome guest. It's just very fun.
    54:02
    I'm going to just walk in your shoes one day. Well, make sure you pick the day because they're not all good.
    54:08
    At work, they're all good. Hopefully you're size 12. I think I am. See? There we go. We can trade shoes. We'll do shoe swaps. Yeah, to me, I cannot wait to see what the next six, 12 months have in store for Jersey Jack Pinball because it really feels like there's something special going on over there. And it feels young. It just feels like a young movement over there ever since, you know, changing locations from Jersey to Chicago. I'm really pumped for it. And I know that you are as excited as I would be in that position because of how much love and respect you have for this industry. I want to do well by it. I did see this last week. I love this. on the JJP social media, Facebook, et cetera, several happy holiday greetings from different faces of Jersey Jack. That was nicely done. Yeah, we had some fun with that. Going into a holiday, you probably, you know, is that the time to really market heavy on Christmas Day when people are spending time with their families? And, you know, I think a lot of what you would probably post on Christmas, other than your general Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays message might get lost. But I don't know. I thought it was really important for us to have these staff members that are working so hard every single day. They're part of this team to be able to kind of jump on and put a little bit of a name with a face. And what better time to do that than on Christmas Eve right before we head into Christmas. So that was fun. And we had those posts that went up every single hour. I think if we had more time, there's something else that I would have done with that. And maybe I'll be able to implement that next time. But, yeah, I appreciate that you called attention to that because, I mean, it was really, really fun. And all those people are great people. And they're the hobbyists in me, and people listening can relate. We like to hear the human aspect of some of these creators and what they're doing specifically to get us the products and the machines that we love so much. So I really enjoyed that. My only critique would be, damn it, I'm going to come in there because your humble pie is way too big. I'm going to take some pictures and do some damn pieces on you, too. You're always behind the scenes pushing that. I'm like, where's Tim? I photobond you a little bit, or video bond you. Now, when you guys came in, and I thought this was cool, too. I wanted to talk about this, because when the game was launched, we had that promotional video that went out by Element Studios. Or Element Studio. Alex Manning over there and the team. Unbelievable job. And that was such a huge first impact for the game, And for people to kind of see that high-energy, concert-style video, quick hits, it did exactly what it was supposed to do. And in my opinion, probably the most epic pinball promotional first impression video of all time. Yeah, it's hard to argue that. Right. I also want to call to attention what you and Greg did coming in from straight down the middle, because you guys offered more of a personal interest featurette of the game. And it was about, what, 20 minutes, 22 minutes long? Yeah, we wanted to catch the mood of the product and the people making it. From the very opening, you can tell that you put a lot of time into it, like you do with most of your stuff, because I know sometimes you're on quick deadlines, but you can never tell because they all look, you know, outstanding. That featurette was one of my most favorite things that I've ever seen in pinball, ever. I thought that it not only highlighted and showcased the machine in a way that, you know, we were very appreciative of, but then to see the faces behind the game, discussed the game and their roles and the way in which you created that was unbelievable. I know we were very pleased with that, appreciative of that. There's no doubt in my mind that that generated enough interest where somebody that was considering buying the machine after seeing that, I don't know how you don't consider buying the game. So for that, thank you very, very much because that makes my job very easy to be able to post something like a promotional video from Alex Manning or your featurette with yourself and Greg Bone. Incredible. And to have those in tandem was like a huge one-two punch, letting the world know, hey, this game's here. It's special. You're going to want to know more about it. It just felt good getting – I tried to put my vision of the first time stepping up and playing that and experiencing a song in the light show and having my friends being some of the creators. I wanted to – my vision was put all of that emotion. I'm very emotionally based, many of you know. So I wanted to tie all of that emotion into a piece that you see and hear. And, yeah, we were very proud of it, and I thank you for that. Oh, I thank you for that. Even from the very beginning, like, I was getting ready to grab the Kleenex. I'm watching Eric Minear propose to his wife in a clip. I'm like, what the heck is going on here? Where is this going to go? And for those of you that want to watch the video, go to Straight Down the Middle, a pinball show on YouTube, and look for that featurette because it's got a ton of views. It went over extremely well. And, again, it's one of the most cool pieces that I've ever seen done in pinball. So you guys killed it. And I think that if we're talking about pinball marketing and production and sales, that's one of the things that Greg and I, part of the story down the middle, when we're pitching companies to cover things, is just that. Production companies like Element, they slay. They have a team. They do things in a way that no hobbyist is typically going to be able to do them. Well, they are working on a little bit more of a budget than you probably are. I will say that. Yeah. So, of course. But Greg and I always talk about what can we provide in video production, cinematography, what can we provide that even the biggest studios are going to struggle with? And that is knowledge of the product. We're obsessed with it. Nobody's going to love pinball more than, no company's going to love it more than us. And emotion. We're emotionally tied to this product. We know what it's like to share with people the big moments of the big experiences. So I think that some of these big production companies at times, they've missed out on that because they don't know pinball as intimately as we do. So I'm just glad that that people experienced what we did creating it. So that was a lot of fun. Yeah, I would agree. I mean, and coming into this position and working with this company, I always think to myself because I'm not far removed from not working in a pinball company. So it's easy for me to remember what I would appreciate if the game was launched, what I would like to see, how I would like to see it covered, how I would like to see it explained. And that's where, again, and I said this earlier, one single person can't do all that. You have to know what kind of a team you're going to assemble and you have to know how you're going to work with these people. And again, to go back to something as cliche as passion, it makes a difference because somebody that understands the impact and understands the emotions that's involved in these games, Those are the people that you want creating your content, not somebody that's looking to put something out there because they want to get some numbers or some likes. I mean, you need people that are passionate about it. You need somebody that cares about showcasing it for the best interest of company rather than themselves. For sure. And there's a wise man that once told me, Ken, that you can't buy that type of patent. Who was that? That guy sounds familiar. Sounds like a good guy. He said something about paved roads and hell or something. I missed that one. But you can't buy that kind of patent. Shout out Bill Webb. There he is. Bill Webb! We love you, Webby, man. We love you. It's not a liver or a kidney, bro. Come on.
    61:23
    And one of the things just selfishly that I want to bring up, and hopefully the listeners are seeing this type of stuff, is that Jersey Jack Pinball did not shy away from allowing some of those who they trust and respect in the community to come in to experience and to help share their excitement with this product. Not all manufacturers do that. It's a very closed door, but we've worked with Jersey Jack for quite a while now, and JJP is not afraid to say, hey, we know these guys. We trust these guys. We respect them. It's okay. They can come in and share with our excitement of what we're creating over here. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of companies are pretty confident that they can handle all that kind of stuff in-house. I get that, too. And listen, I don't want to touch it too much because I would love to keep you all for ourselves at JJP. so they're not that great guys but they're decent enough for us I suppose but when you go into something and I think we're similar in this respect also you're just kind of all in and you're ready to make it as big as you can and that's what I appreciate that's why I like working with you if you're going to do it you've got to do it right, right assuming you have the time though I mean I've seen you work on some really crazy deadlines with some massive video editing and I don't know how you do it if you don't have time you don't sleep That's a lot of pressure. I don't know that you do sleep. You're wasting on punches. And according to my aura ring, I don't sleep well when I think I'm sleeping, so I might as well just stay up. My aura ring actually burned me. There's a big ring around my finger. Is that what it is? Yeah. Where did it burn you? Your finger, right? It's just a burn. It's just a solid burn. We could do this all day, but let's transition a little bit into probably stuff you don't want to hear, the stuff I have to talk about, and that is... What you got? What's coming up? Well, some of the stuff that comes up with every manufacturer. Okay. People want to know that when they're spending money, they're getting what they're spending their money for.
    63:14
    It's tough to put prices on things. I'm always going to understand that. But you have these big, beautiful Jersey Jack pinball machines. Sometimes in-house, are you guys frustrated when you hear people say things like, oh, my God, this is six months ago. Oh, my God, where are these machines at? Why can't you build these machines? Is that hard to hear? How do you sit with questions like that? Sure. Because people are, the pinball hobby and the hobbyist community are very vocal in a lot of ways. So you hear things like, where in hell is my GNR? Why aren't you making CEs yet? What's the deal? What's the holdup? Do you not have parts? How do you deal with it? Well, I mean, all you can do is really listen. And you have to take what's being said and use it as feedback. And then you use that feedback to see what you can do about it. I can say that it's not that it's frustrating. It's just that you kind of wish that maybe somebody could see something from the other side. And then at that point, the argument is, well, why isn't there more transparency? And it's not that the transparency is something that we're trying to pull from people. But a lot of times we're trying to figure out what's going to be the best way to approach something or what's what's going to be a schedule for this out of the other thing. I think the last thing that you want to do is you want to say something, because what happens is when you say something, it can be perceived as as a promise. There's so many variables right now, and if you have to pivot for some reason at the last minute, it looks like you didn't fulfill an obligation that you kind of laid out there. So I think that's where kind of some of those issues arrive. But, I mean, I can say that we make games as quickly and as safely as possible, but I can also put myself in their shoes because I think I was probably that impatient person on releases prior for different companies too. It's just one of those things. So the nice thing is this, and you can take this to the bank, so to speak. If you ordered a game from us, you're definitely getting your game. And I think that's important to know that you will get a game when you put down that deposit and you pay for that game. So that's nice. I mean, that's the greatest peace of mind, in my opinion. I think, yeah, I think I was asking it softly and nicely there, but I'm going to ask it quite bluntly. Ken? Where's my fucking Guns N' Roses collector's edition? The collector's edition. I know. I wish I could jump in on a collector edition. Those collector editions went ridiculously fast. Where's my CE, Ken? You know, we never want somebody to not be able to get a collector edition. I mean, you have to understand that. There's no decision where we're like, ah, we're happy that we have people that didn't get a collector edition. So I think it's important, though, you know, with that number of 500 games, it actually keeps it collectible. Did you think, hold up, did you really think, though, as a dealer, as a hobbyist, as just a lover of pinball, I knew they would sell out. I actually, I really strongly thought that the collector's edition of Guns N' Roses would sell out. I think I underestimated how quickly, though. I think everybody did. I think that's fair. I know that, and this, again, this went into me, am I just kind of on cloud nine and I'm taking everything in and everything's awesome and nothing's bad. But when I saw the game and I knew how unique it was, I thought for sure that we were going to sell out of the collector editions. Did I think that they would sell out as fast? I don't know that I really gave it a timeline. I just knew that we were going to sell out of the game. And I think there was a lot of confidence that, you know, internally as well, that this was something special and that we would sell out of the game. But it's like it's almost as if, like, in a blink of an eye, that collector edition was gone. It was like, wow, it's amazing how quickly that. But you didn't have you guys didn't have time to manage how to how to distribute. Like it was it was a flurry. Yeah, I'm not on that side of things. So I don't really know what was going through everybody's head. But it's a huge undertaking to fill orders, too. Right. I mean, you're taking information, you you're taking deposits. And then there's the fulfillment of the game and setting up the shipping. I mean, that's a whole a whole nother thing involved in pinball that probably a lot of people take for granted. I think in a situation now where, I mean, we're so used to being able to want something, desire something, and be able to go on a computer and check out on an online cart and then usually have it in our possession for like two days. So when something goes past a couple days or a couple weeks or even a couple months, it almost becomes where it's like, hey, this is completely out of line. But these pinball machines are made with care. They take time and got to manufacture as quickly but as safely as possible. And I can say this, you know, we continue to kind of perfect our craft from the manufacturing side of things. So we're getting more and more efficient just about every single day. So games are cranking out and they ship every single day. Yeah. And you will get your game. That is a guarantee. Do we have any, I don't even know what you're allowed to answer and what you're not. Yeah. Because I don't talk to you as your friend. So what is the update on production? What's on the line right now? What's coming out? Like, can you talk about that at all? Yeah, I don't know that I know the exact timeline. I know that what I believe is happening, and again, take it for what it's worth, because I'm not involved in those meetings per se, but I know that alleys were on the line going into the holiday.
    68:27
    And I would imagine that, I mean, CEs can't be very far off. So for those of you that are waiting on those CEs, I would anticipate some pretty good news here coming up early first quarter as far as getting those things going. I'm guessing, and I'm not informed, I'm less informed, but I'll give you guys a guess of January. We'll see some CEs on the line. That's my guess. Yeah, I hope that to be the case. Again, that's not anything that I'm involved as far as decision-making, but listen, from somebody that's monitoring our social media, there's nothing I would appreciate more than having some CEs on the line. And I'm excited for everybody to get those things because when the unboxings start on those CEs, I think it's just going to create another level of hype, and I'm excited to see it. Everybody deserves to get these games. Hey, you know what would be a good idea? If I get a CE ready to unbox it, I should unbox it with my buddies up in Chicago. Oh, see? That would be fun. And I like your style. Yeah, absolutely, because it'll probably be the only CE I'll ever see unboxed, because I sold them all. Again, staff, we can't even buy CEs. So, yeah, I would love to unbox the CE. The CE is an incredible package.
    69:31
    It sure is. Again, I've talked about how special it is and that sort of thing, but the collector edition is amazing. Once CEs roll out, they know that big rush and need for LEs, so they will be running as many as fast as they can whenever the CE is in the run. But I believe last time I talked to operations and executives at JJP, they said that they still plan on running all of the CEs in one big run. They're getting through that 500. So unless that is changed, once CEs get on the line and off the line, we will start seeing LEs plentifully. Yeah, and for those of you, because I do get a lot of messages on social media or through social media and people asking what the delivery timelines are, what's going on with my game, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's fine. I get it, right? I would say this. The quickest way to find out what's going on with your game is always going to be going through your distributor first. Thanks, Ken. I'm sorry, but it's just the case. No, I'm joking. It's true, yeah. Because the company, we're going to tell the distributors what's going on with their allotments when we know what's going on with the allotments at that time. And if the distributor is coming back to you saying, well, they're not telling me anything, it's because we don't have definitive information to relate to the distributor. But in just about every case that I can think of, the distributor, if you order through a distributor, is going to be the person that's going to get that information first. Because, I mean, distributors are our direct customers also. I mean, you guys are – we want to make sure that we're taking care of you guys, so we should keep you in the know. And at that point, once that information is relayed to distributors, you know, it's something that trickles down to me, and then I will usually post something online. And I try to let people know what's on the line. You know, hey, LEs are on the line. SEs are on the line. And I'm looking forward to the posts talking about the CEs that are going to be on the line soon. All right, Ken, you're my best friend. I love you, buddy. But I'm going to ask you, I have to ask, a lot of new pinball machines in the last couple of years I've been in have been showing some clear coat issues on play fields. I wouldn't be doing my job, not to praise a whole hell of a lot, but it wouldn't be my due diligence as a pinball media. Why don you ask him at the play field since you creating a word show for yourself So I had it happen on some of my Jersey Jacks I had it happen on some of my Sterns I had it happen on some of my spooky pinballs I'm being fair here in that it seems like every manufacturer has seen some play field issues. Is Jersey Jack aware of any play field issues that have happened on any of their titles before? And are they doing what they can do to remedy any issues that do come up? Oh, sure. I mean, I think of myself, right, because I'm a collector and I'm an enthusiast. And when I get a game, the games cost a lot of money, and I'm probably one of the people that really go over my game with a fine comb, so to speak. I'm looking for any imperfections. You're a picky one. I am very, very picky. You're a picky. So when something like that arises, I can put myself in anybody's shoes, and you think to yourself, all right, I want to make sure that this isn't something that I need to be concerned about with my game. So I can confidently say that any isolated issues that have been brought to our attention or are currently happening or have been or are being addressed. Okay. We obviously care about the quality of the play fields and the games, and exceeding the expectations of the customers is what we want to do. We don't want to just come in and meet expectations. We want to exceed those expectations. But I want people to know I care about the same exact things that our buyers care about, so none of that gets swept under the rug. where I totally respect your question and I don't blame you for asking it. I can confidently say that everything's good to go. Anytime I've had something, and I'll give Stern a lot of credit as well as Jersey Jack, anytime I've had something come up on a customer's playfield issue or my personal playfields, if I've had an issue, and I have, and customers have, there's not one time that I would say, honestly, not one time has it not been addressed and fixed. So, well, shit happens. If you have any issues with anything, I mean, we've got really good customer service, as you were just saying. You've got Barry. You've got Ken. Absolutely. You've got Steve. All those guys, help desk, IT. We're going to take care of you as a customer. The last thing we want to do is make you feel like you're left high and dry. So if anything comes up, contact us. Reach out to us. Give us first the opportunity to correct it for you. You guys will be okay. And in your opinion, Jersey Jack is aware of how important play field quality is to the collector community. Oh, sure. And listen, look, it's not just the play fields. It's the overall experience of the games. I mean, if something is identified when somebody opens up a game and it's not up to their expectations, it's not because we decided, hey, you know, we're going to cut a corner or, you know what, just deal with it. It is what it is. That's not it at all. We want to give the customer, the buyer, the premier experience. I think that these pinball machines are luxury items. Like, I almost consider us like a luxury brand of pinball. I don't know that, and again, not bad-mouthing anybody that's building or manufacturing pinball. I don't know anybody that puts as much into our games as we do. I think people would agree on that. So believe me, if there's anything that is questionable, bring it to our attention, and I promise you that we're going to take care of you. Yeah, and reach out to your dealers if you went through a deal, or reach out to us if you're having some issues, because we want to see it resolved as well. We know that everybody's spending good money on these things, and we want you guys to be happy with your purchase, and I want to be happy with mine. I think it would be impossible to manufacture thousands and thousands of games a year without something coming up at some point on some machines. And that's why we have customer service. That's why we're able to take care of that stuff. So don't hesitate to reach out. Very nice. I appreciate you actually answering that. No, but again, I understand the importance of those issues. And it's something that I am a stickler about personally. So if at any point I thought that things weren't being addressed, then I just wouldn't feel comfortable representing a company that wasn't taking care of the customers, and we're absolutely taking care of the customers, 100%. I'm sweating here. I'm going to wipe off my sweat.
    75:25
    Look at us, Ken. Did you think a year ago, as we were best buds talking, hanging out, did you think we would be doing what we're doing now? No, no, no, no, no. Well, yeah, I thought we would be doing what we were doing just on the pinball show every single week. It's wild to think about, though, man. When you're passionate and you put in the good work, it pays off. It was great, again, to be given the opportunity. And I'll say this, too. I was having this conversation, I think, with Greg a week or two ago.
    75:59
    Quite honestly, I don't know that I'd be in this position had we not had met, because without you kind of giving me some invitations to podcast with you early on, I don't know that any of this kind of happened. So for what it's worth, man, thank you very much. To you as well. Thank you very much. So hopefully we'll get to hang out soon enough once the world goes back to normal so we can hang out right this second. But people can tune in today, Monday, if you're listening on Monday, December 28th. You're going to be making your appearance back on the Flippin' Out Pinball streaming channel. Oh, my old shopping list. I'm going through memory lane here between Pinball Show and now Pullman. You're going to be giving away some cool GNR swag. It's our farewell tour for now for the GNR standard that they have. I think we might be getting in a seed for them to play once they'll start rolling. So we've got some fun stuff from JJP in the future. But you're going to be appearing live with Beady Man and Bill Webb. That's it. And giving away some really cool stuff. Listener Ken Cromwell. In fairness, I'll be bringing the swag. You guys will be giving it away. I don't want to be responsible for giving away the swag. It's an undertaking to give that stuff away. Oh, it is. We still need to ship out the other stuff that you were kind enough to give us. There you go. A lot of that going around. Don't worry. You have an autographed flash poster. Yes. Which is unbelievable. Sometimes I'm like, man, I don't even want to be a part of this so I can win. Assigned Upper Playfield by Eric Menier and more. So check out December 28th live. It's usually around 6 p.m. Central Standard Time. Twitch.tv slash FlippinOutPinball for the game to get back together. God, you – that's the other thing. Remember, innovation, you bring it everywhere you go. On the FlippinOutPinball stream, when you were the host of that, each and every Monday night pinball, you brought something that the streaming pinball world was not used to. Uh-oh. What was that? You bought a fully produced studio show where you had guests. You had industry innovators come in and creators. You were giving away stuff. You were doing a talk show. You were doing gameplay. You were doing it all. And now we're seeing a lot more of that. Yeah, and that's good. I don't know if I had anything to do with that. I think it probably is the natural progression from pinball streaming or pinball entertainment. But, yeah, I mean, and I think this goes back to what you said earlier and where you kind of, your ideology is on covering the industry is it's showcasing the people that are making the games that we enjoy. And, you know, whenever we had done that, whenever we had studio guests in, you know, from all the different manufacturers, it was great to sit down and talk to them while the game was being played and really focus on what they brought to the game and, you know, maybe some problems or some things that they added to the game to make it different. Those are the stories people want to hear. And speaking of pushing the markers forward in pinball, let's transition over to our next story that was hot off the press this week. Enough of all the positivity. Let's talk about some negative crap. Hey, there we go. Thanks for having me on, man. It was good to be back. So something big dropped this week that I had the privilege of being a part of. The Pimble Industry Awards was announced by myself and Dennis Creasel and all of the other wonderful, hardworking people over at TPN. David Dennis, Jesse Jay, George Fisher, Joshua Jay. I could keep going. but Creasel and I and to a larger extent see this is where I pull you into it Kent so you can take some heat it's like hey I'm not associated with PPN anymore why am I here so there's a new award show new ceremonial awards celebration and I had been thinking about this ever since kind of exiting from the Twippies I was a co-creator of that and even prior to the Twippies kind of thinking ever since I got into pinball I'm wanting to create. Listener, you guys know this. I'm taking chances. Pinball, cribs, we've got, I mean, I'm trying to do everything. So I thought it would be really cool to create an industry award show that also celebrates and commemorates all of these hard workers in the industry for something that we love. It's like I sit back and I'm like, what's the least I can do to, you know, drum up some content, if that's what I'm good at, creating some content to showcase some of these creators and designers and even the media side and even machines for that matter. Yeah, right. That's the whole same thing, right, that you had set up? Yeah. That's a really good idea. So we've kind of been thinking about it as a grander idea, and then Dennis and I have been brainstorming and working on it for the last couple of months. If you guys listened to the special announcement episode of the pinball show, you know a lot of the details surrounding the pinball industry awards, but they are occurring January 28th. That is coming up, man. that. Yeah, award show, January, bam, bam, no waiting. There you go. Short deadline for you, as usual. I think you work best under the pressure of a short deadline, though. I actually do. I believe it. And so we announced that we got some mixed feedback, as we do if I'm attached to anything, unfortunately. I wanted to talk about the good and the bad of it. The good is that we're not hurting anybody and we're celebrating pinball. I'm very proud of that. And it's always nice when you're doing something and it's not hurting anybody else. But obviously you're going to make a couple million bucks on this show, I'm sure, right? Because this sounds like a real lucrative move for you. Oh, yeah. Let me tell you. Right. Sometimes I wake up and I'm like, Zach, why are you doing this? It's because you're addicted to this thing that we call pinball, man. And you put, you go all in. I get it. See, I understand it. You get it. I do get it. You get it. Explain that to some of these people. And we have good feedback overall. People are really excited about this and the ways we're going about it. We try to create an award show for you, listener and you, viewer, that you guys are going to be able to experience in addition to other award shows that are out there to make sure we're not stepping on any toes or doing something we shouldn't do. We want to make sure that it fits nicely in the puzzle piece of awards acknowledgements for the year or for whatever pinball is producing that particular year. So we focused on the critics picking the awards. I wonder how similar the critics and the so-called experts are with picking the best of for the year in pinball machines compared to the general public that we get highly celebrated through the Twisty. See, that's where it really piques my interest is if you had another, say, straight People's Choice Awards, I don't know that that makes a lot of sense to do that, but to kind of approach an awards show from a different angle and getting a different perspective, I think it actually is a good idea personally. I like it. I enjoy it because I do like to see where a panel of judges would go ahead and vote on something versus a fan-type award system. Both are warranted. Both are great. And I can see where both can coexist and mingle appropriately. Sure. There's an Academy Awards. There's a Golden Globes. There's a People's Trophy. Every damn industry has multiple awards. Well, some would argue with that. Well, pinball is too small. We really don't need all these award shows. I haven't heard that 12 times. I know. So and I guess I can I guess what's the harm of it? I mean, what do you have to lose if you just have a different perspective from voting? That's kind of where I look at it. It appeals to me because it is intriguing to see what again, I just said what a panel would select versus a People's Choice Award. Like I said, we did we did did so in the most transparent, objective and respectful ways possible. I did want to update the listeners prior to announcing the pinball industry awards. We did reach out to a couple of manufacturers, give them a heads up out of professional courtesy that we intended on doing this. Jersey Jack was one of them, and you guys were excited and supportive, as was Stern Pinball, as was American Pinball, et cetera, et cetera. The response so far has been overwhelmingly positive. There has been some negative stuff. You know how it is. Anytime you get something negative, it's really loud. I don't understand the negativity from – I mean, essentially you're giving additional opportunities. for people to be recognized for their efforts in pinball. So in that aspect, I don't see the harm in it at all. And last I checked, are you charging for tickets or how is that working? Nope, no charging for tickets. It's a free program. And here's the other thing that I was trying to explain to people. If you loathe this entire idea, if you think that I'm the devil reincarnate that is trying to shove products down your throat in efforts to take your money without you knowing, that sounds crazy y'all but there's people out there that believe it. You don't have to tune in. It's not a requirement. Exactly. And a second awards show is not for everybody. I get it. Sure. The Twippies are there. They're established. You have co-created the Twippies. And I learned they weren't for everybody. For sure. And you're absolutely correct. It's a very easy thing for you to just make the call that hey I'm not really interested in this. I'm probably not going to follow this. I probably won't watch it. That's fine. That's okay. I guess I don't get some of the crazy hysteria when a second award show comes out. And that's just me coming from a pinball enthusiast standpoint. I can't really think of anything that somebody offered the community in a way to help celebrate the community that, like, upset me where I had to kind of be vocal and go crazy about it. And actually, I'm thinking about that right now. Is there anything in your mind that has happened in, I don't know, recently in the last five, ten years where you just flipped out over it?
    85:26
    No. Okay, when intentions. Unless something is causing harm, nope. Nope. More of something that I love is a good thing. And if I don't like it, I just don't participate or tune in. But, no, I want to give everybody an update from the initial announcement. There are some deadlines coming up, though, that are important to keep in mind. We do have Hall of Fame voting. That includes you, listener. This is a blast. It's so much fun. I just filled out mine yesterday. and what you get to do, you get to vote for who gets inducted into the 2020 class of the Pinball Machine Hall of Fame. It's super simple. You go to the pinballindustryawards.com. George Fisher has been our webmaster. He has put so much work and time into that that I really hope you go over and just take a look at it. We've thought out everything. We try to make it as consumable as we can for you guys to enjoy. You just click on a link. It goes to a Survey Monkey survey, and you just pick your machine you'd like to see inducted out of each era. You know what I really like about this Hall of Fame voting is, and a lot of times when you kind of segregate the awards, and it makes sense to do so, right? You want to know who the best designer was perceived by the public or the judging panel or, you know, the best call-outs, the best music, the best rule set. When you place a machine and it gets Hall of Fame recognition from the awards show, So you've got 20, 30, 40 people that can take pride in that induction versus maybe one or two or three people that worked on something that was very separate. So in that aspect, I think it's really cool. And it'll be fun to see, you know, every single year what banners are being raised into the rafters and what games are being celebrated by the community. And I think that's really cool. That's a good idea. I wonder who's going to win the 90s or even like preliminarily speaking. I've been looking at some of the results. I'm like, ooh, this is going to get interesting. This is going to get really interesting. The voters are pretty good, but they might throw some curveballs here. And I encourage you guys to be a part of that. It is going to be, it's just going to be a blast. And vote in the Twippies, too. That's your chance to vote for your favorite of the year with respect to the design elements and the different engineering sound elements and whatnot. When did you know this was a go? Because I know that you've spoken of this idea for a while. In fact, I think I remember when we were first launching TPN, it was something that at some point had come up in conversation. I mean, is this something that you just figured out that you're going to go and you're going to try to get this all figured out in like four weeks? I mean, how does that work? Oh, no, we've been working on it for a while. We wanted to do it right. We wanted to do it with the most respect for the community and for those that are a part of anything else that feels or initially looks similar. We really, really worried a lot about that. And that's the feedback we received in-house as well when we were sharing it with one another and trying to work through this. We're doing this truly, truly with great intentions. We want to be a part of this industry, and we want to be able to give back to this industry. This is just one way among many that you'll see over the coming years that we're able to do this. So, for instance, somebody like me, because I work at Jersey Jack, I am not eligible to vote. Is that correct? Correct. You are not eligible, but even though you do, anybody that's directly getting paid or contracted to be paid for, even if they are media, they are ineligible for this because we're trying to make it as objective as possible. And you know what? And for that matter, I've read a lot of comments that say stuff about some pretty heinous things that we're doing with one another, and that's why we're creating this award. Is that what's going on? I haven't seen it. There's shapes and there's motion zings and circles and all kinds of stuff. And look, that's fine. You get your kicks in. You couldn't be further from the truth there. But I thought to myself when we discussed this, I'm technically eligible to vote for the awards, the main category awards, because I am not paid by a manufacturer nor am I employed by one. But as an authorized dealer, I think it is in my best interest to take a step back and to not vote in these. So you will not be voting? No, I will not be. I think that's the right thing to do. I will help produce. I will help run the whole damn ship. But just out of respect for the awards show and the sanctity of what we're trying to create, it would probably be in my best interest and for those associated not to be voting on this. That's fair. I do have a relationship with manufacturers. Plus, you're going to be busy counting all the cash that's coming in from this, and how would you have time to vote, I'm sure?
    90:04
    I've got my thumb licking down. Yeah, right. Who's hosting? Have you figured that out yet? Do you know? Are you not revealing that? What's going on with that? Yeah, we're currently working on that, and we've got some ideas, and we've got some agreements. So, yeah, hopefully that news will be out soon. That's more of a, it's not us trying to keep anything. We just want to make sure we make the right decisions for this awards group. Is there hardware involved? Is this just bragging rights? Is there a certificate? Oh, yeah. Have you figured that out? I'm really excited about that because I was a part of previous awards, and I always wanted to provide people, as I do, I want to give. So when I give things to people, I want it to mean something. And any trophy means something, of course, because it's a representation of what you've earned. But, damn, it feels a lot better when you like looking at it. So we are giving away pretty beautiful trophies that are crystal, high-end crystal trophies. Yes, very, very heavy-weighted. If you're going to do something, Kim. I'm picturing that emerald sphere from Superman where they, like, throw it out. Right. A scepter. No, it's a beautiful, beautifully crafted crystal award trophy, and we're very proud of that. So we're going to be giving that to the winners. And even like how TPN is internally voting, that would piss people off, But we're internally voting for some of our peers and what we showcase as excellence for the year. And remember, we're doing multiple awards for some of these categories. So if it makes sense to do three streamers, there's no winner. This isn't a winner thing. If you want winners. So like a recognition award type of thing? Yeah, we encourage you to go to the Twippies because they do. They will have winners for favorite podcast or favorite written piece. And they do a great job with that. We're not wanting to do that. But again, we just wanted to showcase, hey, we really as a group think that this media did a phenomenal job. So we want to say thank you for that. Listen, I really like the Twippies. It's always been fun. I've appreciated it every single year. Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with the industry awards too. I think it makes sense to have two different ways to approach the awards. No harm there. All I'm asking for the community is be nice. try to be a part of something bigger if you want to help out and be supportive of... Or, you know, how about this? Sit back and relax and see how it goes and then offer some criticism after the fact. That's the other thing. I guess... Give us a chance. You might enjoy yourself. Too many people assume the worst. So I think at some point you just kind of have to look yourself in the mirror and say, maybe I'm going to give this a chance and see what happens. And you don't make them vocal. When I'm working with people and the terrific group that is the TPM providers that are part of this committee, this in-house Pinball Industry Awards Committee. Guys, they are busting their ass. They're really trying to bring you guys something special. So I'm always going to look out for them because it means the world to me when somebody is working alongside of me as diligently and as hardworking as I'm doing. I know if you're spearheading this, you're not going to half-ass it. So I can confidently say that. And there's room. There's room. This is going to be a lot of fun alongside the Twippies or alongside the Pinball News Awards when they were doing, I think they might still be doing those. So there's all kinds of, we can all have fun together and be decent human beings without shitting on each other. I did want to say, though, to clear up some of the misinformation out there, I just hate false statements. I can't stand them. Those are what keep me up at night. False statements? We almost opened up the episode with that. Shit. The truth is this is not, listeners, This is not any attempt to complete with or replace the This Week in Pinball yearly awards. It is not. So much so that when we announce this, and we continue to believe so, we fully support the Twippies. We love the Twippies. We think that some of the things they're doing are wonderful. Continue to support that. We want to sit alongside and offer something different to make pinball even more exposed and celebrated. We're not trying to do anything that is going to harm anyone involved with the Twippy Awards. Can I jump in for just a quick second? Yeah, go ahead. And this is just me looking at it from the outside because, I mean, I know Jeff personally. I know you personally. I know how involved yourself and Greg and Jeff were for the evolution and the launch of the Twippy. When you guys mutually agreed to part ways or however that went, I think it's the natural progression for you to want to keep that award show that you helped to create and bring it to a platform that doesn't compete with the Twippies. So in that aspect, I think it's commendable that you're still able to kind of follow something that you were heavily involved with without going for a direct competition. I don't see it as a direct competition personally. I see it, again, as you doing something that you had invested a lot of time in, that you still wanted to continue to evolve, but you wanted to be respectful of the fact that the Twippies have their place in the industry and the industry awards are just another aspect for people to celebrate the hobby in the industry. So, I mean, that's kind of where I take it. Thank you. That's my feedback. And I'm transparent. I'm open and honest. Jeff and I don't always say eye to eye. We don't. We've worked really hard together and great as a team producing the This Week in Pinball podcast, producing a lot of things with the Twippies. Sure. So nothing but respect to what he is doing with the Twippies and the Twippy committee over there. We don't see eye to eye. For example, he recently on the Pinball Industry Awards hopped in there. and I want to clear up some of the misinformation. He said he was given an off-the-record heads-up by someone at TPN, I'm quoting, this is a quote, that they were looking at starting an award show run the same time of the year as the Twippies to compete with the Twippies, and it appears this is it. I'm going to stop right there in the quote. This is not it. There is no evidence to suggest any of that is truth. The only evidence we have is that we're trying to have fun, We're trying to create something that sits alongside things that people love. That's the truth here. There's no competition, and it's not the same time of year. We're in January. They're in March. So it spreads it out. We wanted to be able to spread it out so people, it wasn't stacked on top of one another. So no competition there. And I'd like to think that I'm going to create regardless, Ken. You know that. Whether it's an award show, whether it's a podcast. Oh, I do know that. I'm not going to hold myself back from creating just because other people are creating. Numerous podcasters, numerous everything. When you were no longer doing the Twippies, did anybody actually think that you would not consider doing another type of an award show at some point? I mean, before I even discussed it with you, I just assumed at some point we would see another award show. I wanted to clear that up. He goes on to quote, It looks like the difference is that it is some pinball. He says, quote, media. people picking the winners versus the general public and pinball community. I know none of the details of these awards, so please direct all questions to the TPN guys. Thanks. So thank you, Jeff, for that statement and the Pinball Industry Awards Forum. Appreciate that. So, yeah, just as we have said, as we announced it, if you have any questions, you can go on the website to read all about that. I hope that Jeff can get behind this and be supportive because we are doing everything that we can to show love and support for all the hard work that he and people he's associated are in pinball. I think it's even a fun transition into the Twippies because you get the industry vote out of the way, and then you transition into the People's Choice Awards, and there is enough separation where it doesn't feel like you're getting double-stacked with award shows. So, yeah, I mean, absolutely, both of these can be successful. They can coexist, and there can be support for each show because, again, collaborating is always what seems to be the best way to work towards a common goal, so to speak. My favorite argument this week is from, you've got to love Canada's pinball podcast. Canada. Sure, you get to hear from him. He never mentions Jersey Jack, so I don't know. So we announced this, and within five minutes, bam, here's a text message from Canada. Am I included in this? Yeah. I said, yes, Chris, yes. You fit criteria, to my knowledge. So, yeah, you're a voice in media, sure. He said, okay, I'm behind it. I accept this. I agree with this. This is good stuff. Good. He goes and just shits all over it on his podcast. Oh, did he? He's like fired up. Yeah. Well, you know, it is what it is. He was trying to make this, Twippies are important to him and others, and he's trying to make this push. He's like, I like when people choose the winners of the podcast and not fellow media. And I'm like, oh, I guess that's an argument. Oh, that's a fine opinion. I mean. That's a good opinion. Okay. I get it. Within five minutes, he then goes on to say, to tell people to vote for him in the Twippies, have your spouses vote, children vote, your mailman, anybody, any co-worker. Oh, yeah. Okay.
    99:03
    I'm like, this is – But you know what? All right. Okay. So you can't stand behind – This isn't our goal. This isn't media voting. Right, right, right. But you can push non-pinball people that have no clue who you are to vote. Okay, okay. I would just say if you're going to make an argument, make one one way or the other. Don't try to make both sides that – that makes no logical sense. One of the biggest things, Ken, is we heard, why are you guys voting for any media awards? And I've alluded to it earlier, just to clear it up. We're doing so, and that's why we're keeping it in-house. We don't want to have to put that burden on other media. No, we just, as a group, we work really hard at TPN. We want to showcase our appreciation for those peers in pinball media. Cutting them awards, because me and Jeff Jellis have been kind of talking about this, the pros and cons. Cutting other people out is a disservice. So we get rid of it and we don't show any appreciation for other people. Well, damn it, who's going to? I mean, honestly, who cares if you're doing that? Name me one pinball podcast that hasn't gone at the end of the year and talked about what they thought was the best this or the best that. The differences are doing it as a network. I don't get it. There are people out there, listeners, that are doing such innovative and wonderful, terrific quality work that they're not going to be able to drum up, as Taneida calls it, your children, your mailmen, your coworkers. They're not interested. But damn it, they still deserve recognition. I would agree. I think a lot of people, I'm not going to say a lot, I think there's a select few people in the hobby or the industry that do get votes because of established history or name recognition, whereas somebody else that might be doing something that's moving something forward or innovating might not get that attention. So in this instance, this is where a People's Choice Award would not be able to showcase that person. And this is where a group of judges could really look at somebody's efforts and how they've moved the hobby or moved the industry, and then they get recognition. So I think that point alone really kind of justifies what you're trying to do. I'm not going to get rid of that idea just out of mere fact that people are going to worry about our bias. To hell with that. If that means that somebody gets cut from recognition of wonderful work that they're doing, that we consume each and every day, it's bullshit. No. Yeah. Damn it, guys. We're trying to do something nice and fun. And here's what I told, and then we'll move on. I told the Pinball Industry Awards Committee, I said, look, guys, you're going to catch the heat. I'm used to it. They're not. God bless them. But I said, at the end of the day, here's the deal. If we give recognition to some of those outstanding pinball media providers, if we do it correctly, Ken, if we do it correctly, listener, there's no argument, really. If we do what we're supposed to be doing in recognizing those excellence, there should be no argument. Because people can't argue with people that, like, I'm going to give you an example right here. Right here live on the air, I'm going to give you an example. Okay. We're going to have a committee meeting on the 30th. Everybody's interested in being part of those excellence awards at TPN. We're going to have a discussion. We're going to have a debate. We're really putting into some effort here. We're each going to be able to nominate who we would like in different respective areas. I'm nominating somebody for streaming that I think has changed the landscape of pinball media. Okay. And that's Carl DeAngelo with IU Pinball. Oh yeah, I can see that for sure. Yep. Yep. That guy not getting the recognition. He doesn't need recognition. He doesn't want recognition. But damn it, as a pinball media provider, if I have the ability to provide some support and recognition for his and his group's hard work, I will do so. And if it makes me look like a biased asshole that's just trying to make money off people, I'll wear that crown. Well, and look at it this way. How many people in the streaming community have benefited from that Carl D'Angelo-style rig? I know that I built three of them, and that's something that could have been a pinball mod or something, but it should have certainly had been given some attention. And in this instance, I mean, it did help to kind of streamline pinball streaming. And that is just a mere example. Sure. That is no guarantee that Carl will get an award of excellence in that. The group is still going to have to put upon a debate and a vote for that. But we're doing so with with best intentions. And we're really we're really putting in the work to identify some of these people. And this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. This is something where deservedly so that recognition should be there. But because you might not be thinking like that when you go into vote, it'd be really easy to kind of oversee the efforts of somebody like that. And so absolutely. So, you know, conversely, when I hear things like on a forum on Penn side that says, quote, fuck this entire thing. It's so stupid. I can't wait to hear about how their feelings were hurt after just trying to do a good thing for the industry. Always the victim. I will not support this garbage and encourage others who see what's really going on here to do the same. Twit does a great job, works hard, but fuck them. Let's start our own show to compete directly under the network. Dick move. Why not just partner together? It's disgusting, man. I just, good Lord. Believe me, I get it. You can't make all the people happy all the time. Some people take it to the extreme, and you really have to sit back and be like, what is going on in life where you have to be so kind of off tilt on that? I don't know how widely thought that rhetoric is. Seems like a play to just get more control back now that the Twippies is not part of the network. Guess what, ass? They never were part of the network. Get your facts straight. I think a lot of people assume that they know everything because there's no fact-checking that goes on, like legitimate fact-checking. There's no discussions behind the scenes. It's just like, well, this is what I see. This is my private eye mindset, and I'm going to expose what I'm already seeing. So it's a really difficult deal with somebody that's got that in their head. And I don't know how you do that, and I've dealt with it before, and it's just one of those things. I will say this. I think that over the past couple of years, you've developed or you've increased your followership, your fan base, so to speak. And when you increase the amount of exposure that you have, rightfully so, because of the efforts that you're putting in the industry with that is going to become is going to come a more vocal group of people that speak out against what you're doing. So I think that's the natural progression of just becoming more exposed, mostly in a positive way to the industry. So I don't know that I would let anything like that get you down, and I know that you're too strong-willed to let that impact you going forward. But, I mean, let's be honest. Something like that is hurtful because it affects my team. Right, and on the surface, it's just not justified to say that. If you want to believe that, you can't speak that you're coming from fact. If that's what's on your surface, I support your right to express your opinion. But, I mean, what happened to people just being human beings and being able to express an opinion and let it come across? Because in my opinion, it's more respectful if you're able to kind of articulate yourself and your opinions without such angst and vitriol, so to speak. Chill out. Accept it. Have a conversation about it. I get it. But just go on the attack. Yeah, my ego is big enough. I don't care.
    106:17
    Guys, I'm numb. You are now. You're just comforting me. I'm numb to it. Bring them on. I'll take them on as long as they don't hit my partners that I work with. And that's what hurts so much when I see somebody blood, sweat, tears into something. And they might be newer into the industry, and they're just doing so out of love and passion. And I'm not changing me. Fighting for pinball, baby. I learned to roll with those punches. But I'd be lying if the occasional comment that's ridiculous doesn't get under my skin at times. I do want to encourage all of those pinball media providers out there. Guys, if you're doing a podcast, if you're doing a stream, if you've done some photography, any part of pinball media, we're creating a format for your voice to be heard. Come join us. All you've got to do is fill out that form on the pinballindustryawards.com and come be a part of that. Let's try to make this as people like you that are providing content that I consume the hell out of. We get to make this as objective as we can to let the industry know what the critics believe is the greatest of the year. Come join us. It be a lot of fun Good luck with that man Thank you Absolutely Is that Frank That was Frank I don know why I didn turn that off I sorry Moving on to other news Thurm Pinball had a flurry of code updates. Ooh-wee. TMNT version 1.41 gets a half-shell challenge. Avengers 0.95 gets light shows, tweaks, and a DJ mixer. Iron Maiden V 1.08 gets a huge, huge update. I don't even have time to tell you all about that. Go check that out. Past Cannon Crusher? Okay. We can update there. Version 1.02 alongside Primus. Version 1.04, they get the DJ Mixer stuff alongside DJ Mixer in Star Wars. Version 1.10 in Stranger Things. My baby. Version 1.01, got a huge update as well. What is DJ Mixer? Wiki wiki. DJ Mixer is in a track mode. You can turn on the music. Okay, so you can listen to the music. I got you. Yeah, I believe Guns N' Roses has something like that, correct? Yeah, we have jukebox mode. You can go in and... Yeah, go update your codes on that. Or if you're like me, you still can't figure out how in the hell to do it. And you pray for the day that online connectivity comes to the world like it has Jersey Jack Pinball. And Multimorphic! Don't ever forget the Multimorphic people. What do you know about the new EULA agreement? I love having you on. You're part of the manufacturers. Now you get to talk about EULA. the end user license agreement. So Stern recently in the news here issued a, an end user licensing agreement, also known as a EULA that is, was attached to their code update. So when you update code for your pinball machine, it comes up with this agreement that you have to check. And I'm not very knowledgeable at this, but if you listen to Dennis Creasel next week, he knows all about this or listen to, They'll probably touch on it on the Eclectic Gamers podcast this week as well. But essentially, you're agreeing to not streaming any gameplay of your Stern pinball machine without Stern's prior consent. Without the express written consent of Major League Baseball.
    109:35
    Exactly. So they're trying to say, hey, you're not going to use, you're not going to install any unauthorized content or software. no use of authorized content or the software use of it may result in seizing to your Stern Pinball machine seizing to work permanently losing access to Stern Pinball's online game network a lot of this stuff you're not going to create, develop, distribute or assist anyone in creating, developing or distributing unauthorized content so you're agreeing to saying basically here's the lamest terms you're signing this when you're doing a code update that says, if I stream this and I get in trouble, it ain't on Stern. It's on me. Because we understand that we're signing or checking saying Stern has told us not to do this and we agreed not to do this. I wouldn't think that the manufacturer, and I don't know this, I don't work in legal, I wouldn't think that the manufacturer would be on the hook for somebody streaming a pinball machine that they bought. I mean, I understand where maybe they shouldn't be streaming it, but I didn't know that that could come back on the manufacturer at all. This is all news to me. And I think it's news to them, too. They're trying to figure out this whole thing because they do have a lot of people streaming. Well, it's getting aggressive now, right? So where is the future of pinball streaming, especially on Twitch? Because with these instant bans and, you know, Facebook muting things and getting strikes, and I think a lot of it's innocent because, I mean, let's face it, somebody that's streaming a pinball machine isn't making enough money most likely streaming that pinball machine to where they're impacting the licensors' ability to capitalize. But on the flip side of things, I can understand where rebroadcasting somebody else's IP or music or license can be called into question. I would hope that Twitch would be able to negotiate this on their behalf so that anybody that's part of Twitch would be covered under an agreement. And whether that's charging their streamers $100 a year or something that then is paid to kind of cover music, something to that effect. Because I've seen this worked out in other forums. YouTube has done an agreement where any licensed content comes up, the proceeds of the advertisement goes back to the creators of that original intellectual property. Right, right. So hopefully, yeah, I'm with you. Hopefully Twitch comes up with some type of agreement. Is that even being discussed? I mean, it has to be discussed, right? It has to be in the – Sure. They're just far apart right now. But it is in discussion. And this stuff's going to Supreme Court. They're thinking about, like, felonies and stuff. Can you imagine, like, you're doing some time because you streamed some pinball on Twitch? Yeah. What'd you do? What are you in for? Yeah. Streaming. Playing pinball. And then you know what the first reply would be? They still make pinball? That's right. And they'd be like, give me your cocktail fruit. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sorry. You can have it. You said cocktail, and I immediately. Oh, I see. Take my Jell-O. Take my rubber meat here. Yeah, none of that. Oh, rubber meat. Watch it. Okay. I'll just get out of this conversation. Okay. So we all saw that, and we were like, what the hell? We have to ask CERN for permission to stream their games? This sounds like a horrible idea. And then over the last couple days, that has changed, and it's now not on their website, this EULA agreement. It's not on their website anymore. Oh, there you go. There you go. So it's still in flux. We'll find out more information. We'll make sure to let you know as soon as we can. But we know that from some of our providers that have reached out to Zach Sharp, Director of Marketing over at CERN Pinball, he indicated that EULA agreement is no longer on the site at the moment. He implied that it was going to be back there, but maybe some modifications. So they're going to have some more information as well. So we'll keep you all in tune. Is that why those video out HDMI splitters are not available anymore? Some people think that's part of it as well. And then there was still some licensing stuff, so they're trying to figure it all out. So that's that. Not a lot of news going on this week. We did have a fun video from myself and Greg Bone for Straight Down the Middle. We did a top ten list of the most underrated pinball machines of all time. Ooh, I did not catch that. That's fresh. You'll have to check it out. Sip a beer this afternoon and watch that, Ken. Any spoilers? Can you share one that's on that top ten list? Well, how about this? You name me a very underrated pin in your eyes, And I'll tell you if it made the list or not. A very underrated pin in my eyes. Well, we've talked about this ad nauseum. Probably Baywatch, I think, is underrated. Oh, well, unfortunately. You're like, oh, well, yeah. Straight down the middle did not identify Baywatch. He did not identify Baywatch. But you know what? I agree with you. That is an often overlooked, underappreciated, and underrated pinball machine. I think for me, I can call out overrated pinball machines more than I could underrated pinball machines. That video is coming. Okay. Well, there you go. I'd like to have that conversation. I will say that I'm going to give you a guess. And I know there's a game on there that we both feel is underrated, but I don't want to make the assumption that everybody thinks it's underrated, but I think Stranger Things should get more recognition than it is. I think that you might be pleasantly surprised to watch our video then. Right. I'm already getting shit for that. You failed a game, so that's why. Oh, payball! There is, interestingly enough, there's a JJP game on there, because Greg and I both feel very strongly that there is one title in particular that we feel is very much underrated. And I won't say what, but I'll trick you guys here, because a lot of people are automatically thinking The Hobbit. It's not The Hobbit. There's one title in particular. Hobbit's a great game. Oh, God, I love The Hobbit. And listen, I'm a company man, I suppose. Yeah, I love the entire JJP catalog. In fact, I'm looking at right now, I've got Wonka, Guns N' Roses, Wizard of Oz, and Pirates of the Caribbean. God, you lucky ass. And my Pirates is a prototype that has some stuff on it that others don't. can I come see it? yeah I would love for you to come see it I think you'd love it oh man I need that you've got all kinds of secrets over there can I at least ask you this Ken Cromwell have you seen JJP's next title? have I seen it? or do I know what it is? have you seen it? oh ok do you know what it is?
    115:48
    you have to know what it is I believe I know what it is I think you do So I can't really comment on if I've seen it or not. Sure, but you're on the show. Because I don't want to give away where it may or may not be as far as, you know, development.
    116:04
    What's the code at on that new one? What's the code at? Is it version one yet? Yeah. I think the focus and the effort right now is just really making sure that we get these GNRs in everybody's home. Let everybody be happy with this game because, you know, the next release is coming. but we got a lot of work to do as far as getting everybody their games right now. You're good. That's what I expect. Have you played it? Have you played it at all? Oh, you're not even going to tell me. I choose to assert my Fifth Amendment privilege. Okay. Whatever.
    116:35
    I bet he shot at everybody. Ladies and gentlemen, it's the segment that you wait for week to week. It's Pinball Marketing. Trance! Yes, it wins! Take it away, Zach. Why is the music starting? This is shit!
    116:57
    Bravo! Tell me there's nothing more therapeutic than that. It actually toasted my vocal cords a little bit. Uh-huh. Yeah, I feel regenerated. I might sleep well tonight for the first time. I'll look at my aura. It's like a high, isn't it? Right. I feel so good. Now you want to tell the listener what's trending up and what's trending down. I've got people knocking on my garage. You okay in there? Yeah. Pinball Market Trends. It's okay. Yeah, wait until we get to deals. All right. Turning up this week, thank you, Tim Cromwell, is Iron Maiden by Stern Pinball. It's turning up this week because I don't know if they're going to be producing anymore. Number one, people are still asking me for it. Number two, number three, it's got a huge code update on that thing. Back up the truck. They're proving out the code. There's like 80 people working on code over at Stern. of it ever. Woo-woo! You come to Code Train, and it unloaded on Iron Maiden. Woo-woo! I don't know what code sounds like when it unloads. It doesn't sound like that on any of my machines. Ones and zeros is all it is. So, Iron Maiden got a big code update, and again, it's a wait and see whether they're going to produce this thing. I don't know if the license is up, but the Iron Maiden premiums, hell, those have not been produced in a long time. And even the pros now, people are trying to get their hands on. So you're going to see that number continue to stay steady and even rise as they start to become more and more scarce. Trending up Iron Maiden. People are going to want that Alwyn's first game too, right? Oh, that's a good point. Damn, you're made for this. Have you done a podcast before? I dabbled.
    118:34
    Dabbler. I'm going to dabble in something that's trending down. TNA. No, not that TNA. A total nuclear annihilation. Scott Denise himself. Love you, buddy, but I'm sorry. Your first machine is trending down at the moment. It's a market. It fluctuates. Chill out. It might go back up. Who knows? I'm just reporting facts. Why is it trending down? I like DNA. I hate to tell you. Dan, sometimes I don't know the etiology. I just report the trends. This one's dipping in the fives now. Ooh.
    119:05
    On the secondary market, getting you a TNA in the $5,000 range? What is this, a Stern Pro? No. It's TNA, baby. It's a light show unlike anything else. Until GNR came out. Well, I'll tell you what, though. Scott let me borrow the TNA Whitewood, and we had it for months. Oh, yeah, I remember that. What a fun machine. I mean, it's just great. And there's something about when you hit start and that music hits. Again, that's another really cool kind of pinball moment. I really, really like TNA. Yeah, and the reason, the other reason, honestly, it is trending down a little bit because you are seeing those prices dip in the secondary market, And we do know that there is no longer a rumor. It has been verified by Tarly, the owner over at Spooky Pinball, that they're going to have another run of that, a 2.0 run, if you will. Ah, that's right. Yeah, they may be updating and enhancing some things. So the people with these traditional ones are seeing G&Rs coming out. They're seeing Led Zeppelin. They're moving on with them, and they're starting to fill the marketplace a little bit. Well, maybe it's time for me to jump on because I just realized I've not ever played a TNA production game. I've only had extensive time on the Whitewood. I've not played a production game. How about that? There's some cool differences there. I would encourage it. Yes. I would encourage it. But wait. Listener, wait until it gets down. It gets you picking up a good T&A for about $5,400, and you've made one hell of a deal.
    120:24
    All trending down this week apparently is having fun and being genuine and enjoying pinball. Oh, jeez. Yeah, well, hey. I had a little poke at some of those assholes out there that think that I'm just doing this as a self-serving thing. I guess that's better than Dick of the Week that had made an appearance or two on the show. You know what? Now that you mention it, I'm joking. Okay. There's only two. I think Dennis' contract includes termination of Dick of the Week. No D-O-T-W? No, no Dick of the Week this week. That's okay. But I do have a D-O-T-W. You know why? This is the deal of the week. Bye, bye, bye. Nicely played. Have you done this before? That's why I have to create award shows because I can't win myself. You can't win them. Then we've got to create them themselves to give them... Oh, fuck off. How pathetic would it be if you went out of your way to create an award show to award yourself an award? To give myself? Do people think... Come on. That'd be pretty bad. Some brains don't function. They just don't work. Fill the Week this week can be found on Pinside. A Mouse and Around. What do you know about Mouse and Around there? Sounds like a Bill Webb machine there. I know nothing about it. I've never owned a Mouse and Around. I've played it, but I've not owned it. I can't recommend it enough. Is that a System 11 Mouse and Around? Yeah. If you like System 11s, this is one of my favorite System 11s ever made. And this one in particular is coming out of Van Alstyne, Texas. Hmm. Man, sure it's not out of Transylvania? Van Alstead's so Dracula-like. It's like, oh, who's going to drive to that house in that area? My name is Hedlison Maxwell, too. I was thinking Van Heusen, like the hunter of monsters. Oh, yeah. Then Helsink. What did I say? Helsin? Van Heusen. Wasn't that a brand of like an old jeans that came out? I think it is. I think my son gets one of those Van Heusen shirts from his godmother every single year. And it comes like from the subskirt. I'm like, what is this? And I'm like, oh, it's that Van Heusen shirt. It's every single year he gets one of those things. It's awesome. I love it. Check out my Van Heusen, my case twisters. I'm decked out.
    122:32
    Can't buy a pinball at Van Heusen. Oh, my gosh. Now, you can't buy that type of passion. You can't buy that kind of shirt, that type of pinball at Van Heusen. Mousetrap for sale. The reason I'm highlighting this one is that it's a nice one. Everything's been going through. Everything's working 100% per this pinsider. Mousetraps have actually been taken apart and cleaned, and they work great. Pop bumpers. everything strong, very nice overall player shape, and one of the best ones that they have seen. And by looking at the photos, they're not lying. It looks like a way above average player's condition mouse and around. And for $2,400, Oboe? Come on. I do love when somebody says it's the nicest one I've ever seen. Because today, if I went out and I bought, say, a mouse and around, and I never owned one, and I could just be like, this is the nicest one I've ever seen. Well, that is true. It's a good point. Right. $2,400, that's pretty much the going rate. That might even be cheaper than the going rate. And Mouse and Moran, much less the nice one. That's huge. Yep. $2,400 is absolutely respectable. Buy, buy, buy! Oh! Buy, buy, buy! See?
    123:41
    You get me, Ken. You just get me. It's been a while. But it's like muscle memory. It's like I didn't forget. Love you, buddy.
    123:49
    All right. Also, another deal of the week this week is the Harlem Globetrotters. They're on tour, I've heard. Harlem Globetrotters on tour. Yeah, the solid state back in the day. You could buy one on Pinside right outside of Tucson, Arizona. That's still like 80 degrees in Tucson.
    124:04
    Now, his Pinside username is E-E-E-E-E-E-E. Or would it be E? What do you think he goes by? I have no idea. But I do have a Harlem Globetrotters story when you're done here. I would love that. This one, this one is professionally clear-coated. You know how I love those supple clear-coated play fields. I am the same way. If you could take any machine and have it professionally cleared from back in the heyday to a modern clear, it adds at least $1,000 to a game, in my opinion. Absolutely. In my opinion. And this one, he said, plays smooth. It's a gem in your game room. All right, getting a little over top there. Beautiful original back glass, smeared back glass. It's nice. Newly installed play field, braid, refurbished spinners, crisp displays. It's a nice one. And for $2,500? Buy, buy, buy!
    124:55
    It's a deal. You can't beat that. Let me ask you, have you put a lot of time on Harlem Globetrotters? I have. I've put a decent amount of time on it. So what is your general, like, 30 seconds or less, what's your review on this game? For somebody that's not owned one, do they go out and get one? I think for anybody that is considering an early solid state, this should be in your top three to consider. Gotcha. It's a standard body, which always is going to play a little bit better than your traditional ballet wide bodies, in my opinion. And the spinner rips on this game alone are worth the cost of admission, not to mention the theme, the beauty of this game, and inline drop target bank. Oh, that feels so, so good to hit. So, yeah, I would say it's iconic. It's beautiful. It's fun to play. It's fun to rip. Balance scoring for the most part. That's why you see it in a lot of competition play. I love Harlem Globetrotters. Okay, because I was hanging out with Eric in the office the other day, and Eric Minier, designer on Pirates, designer on Guns N' Roses, and he was talking about how he had come into work, and the night prior he was putting a lot of time on his Harlem Globetrotters, and I was kind of poking some fun at him. I'm like, dude, all these games that you have, because he's got a pretty extensive game collection, but he finds himself putting a lot of time on Harlem Globetrotters, and I never had thought that I would be kind of in the market maybe to look for Harlem Globetrotters, but he told me, he said, But, Ken, do yourself a favor, get a Harlem Globetrotters and put some time on it, and you're going to appreciate that you did. So I might be looking for a Harlem Globetrotters. The caveat is if you were looking for that style of play, that early solid state style of play. So I appreciate games like Meteor, I mean early solid state, Stars, that sort of stuff. So I can see, and I think there's some similarities with the drop targets and the scoring of Meteor as there is with Harlem Globetrotters, the way that he was explaining it to me. I remember playing Harlem Globetrotters at a couple of pinball shows, but I never really thought too much about it. You know, you get overload, you try to go one machine to the next, to the next, to the next. But I want to revisit a little Harlem action. Then, yeah, this would be right up your alley. Gotcha. Okay. All right, so you save some money with those deals, but you're going to lose the money if you follow this deal of the what? How? Who clear-coded that play field?
    127:04
    Your submission for deals at the WTF in Apulka, Florida. See Amstrad off of Pinside is selling a Medieval Madness Remake Royal Edition. Okay. Yeah. I fancy that game. I like that trim level. It's like a $10,000 game, isn't it? Absolutely. $10,000. Buy, buy, buy. Now they said the game's in perfect condition. Okay. Local pickup only. Fine. Doesn't affect me. Cash on the glass only. Thanks for stating the obvious. No, I'm going to Venmo you. Right. PayPal only, please. Build date, June 2020. Makes sense because that's kind of when they made them all. 10 out of 10 exterior. So it's new. Okay, I get it. Looks like it was taken out of the box yesterday. That doesn't tell me anything, really. The only mod is the green LED on the trolls. That's fine. What I'm not okay with, Struth, is the price. Okay. I'm trying to maximize here off of the scarcity of the remake. Do you have any of these new in box right now? Like, can somebody buy a Medieval Madness for me right now? Not for me. No, we sold out immediately. But there's a plan that might have some stocks. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. He stocks a lot of those. I'm trying to figure out the scarcity at this point. People ask. Because you're setting it up for the big price. I know you are. People want it. I get it. But do they want to spend $14,000 on it? That's a serious coinage. Just a bit outside. Tried the corner and missed. Sell, sell, sell. Yeah, this one is like when you wonder what happened to the pitcher. when, I don't know if the tar on his fingers, like, flew off into the stands. $14,000 for a remake that was, like you said, not even a year old, and he's wanting $4,000 more, and it's used! No! But it looks like it just came out of the box, so there's that going for it. It could still have been a fucking box, and I wouldn't pay $14,000 for it. Yeah, so that's what I was going to ask. If somebody, say, a distributor or a private owner, has a Royal Edition brand new in the box, is $14,000 out of line for an asking price on that? I don't know. I spent over $700 for a PlayStation 5 in the parking lot. Well, that's a little different. That's a little different. I get it. That's a little different. And here's why it's not, Ken. You brought up a good point. The deal is they've made a ton of these things, dating back to the original remakes and the original remake LEs, and they sell these accessories that make this royal the royals. They sell them as kits. So it's not like the Attack from Mars topper that you can't buy. Now, you can buy the Royal Topper for this. You can buy the upgraded lighting. What does the whole kit cost? If I want to take my Medieval Madness from a stock to a Royal Edition, and when I say Royal, I mean all the amenities that are offered on the Royal, what's my cost for the accessories? You're looking at, yeah, let's say $1,500, $2,000. Let's say $2,000. So, I mean, if you can go out and find a Medieval Madness, any edition, for $10,000. $9,000 maybe. For $10 or less, and you buy the accessories new for another $2, with the exception of the labor being factored in, you're getting a brand new or a nicely shaped Royal Edition experience for $12 on the high end. Exactly. That's where my rationale is here. You can add these things. They're readily available. So there's nothing that makes this special right now, and especially this certain trim level. But at $14, you've got that built-in cushion where you can actually come in at $7 and negotiate around $9 or $10. So there you go. Man, that's a hell of a cushion. That's not good. Right. That would offend Bill Wabby. He doesn't like anybody coming in under 80% of the ask. I mean, we're not talking Gilligan's Island here, but. No, no, no. Special throwback there. Sell, sell, sell indeed. Probably a nice person, but you're a couple grand too high on that. That's all. Fair enough. Now in your pinball market trends. You could not let that segment go without you blasting that one. I loved it, man. That was pretty good. That was impressive. That had some hang time. Yeah, man. That had some hang time. Yeah, it did.
    131:11
    All right, Ken, thanks for stopping by the old stomping grounds here. You sure you don't want to do it every week with Dennis? Yeah, you know, I think it would be maybe a little bit of a conflict of interest for everybody involved, but I'll say I appreciate that you thought to have me on. It was great for so many different reasons. I always look forward to collaborating with you on anything, creating content, doing these podcasts. Not to be overly gushy, but I appreciate everybody that gave me an opportunity to spend some time with them, whether it be on the car ride in or in the bathroom while listening to our podcasts. And I owe my gratitude to you because I really think that without your support, I don't know how motivated I would have been to stay in the industry making content. And because of that support, I'm working at a pinball company. So for what it's worth, it's a dream job for me. and I appreciate it, and I thank everybody very much. Wow.
    132:02
    That feels really good. I can't. It feels awesome. It feels awesome for me. And if you're looking to work in the pinball industry, careers at jerseyjackpinball.com, come aboard. It's fun times. Yeah, and, you know, farming system. If you want to join the CPN a little bit, we'll get you settled in, and you can take the heat from media. You sure as hell take the heat from manufacturing. That should be it. You have to go through like an American Ninja type character assassination, and then you get vetted, and then you get to move on to other things. If you can still love pinball after this, we want you. Yeah, right. That's exactly right. Oh, man. You know, I think the world of you and doing anything alongside of you is the dream come true. It's so much fun. Again, I meet another best friend because of pinball, so that's why I keep striving to fight each and every day. regardless of the kickback that sometimes I receive. Jersey Jack is unbelievably, unbelievably lucky to have you and vice versa, lucky to be a part of that good group up there. I'm just pumped for each and everything that you help develop here in the pinball world. I know you flipped that damn game. I'm looking forward to what Jersey Jack has coming up next, as well as my own CE coming here very soon, it sounds like. So, Kim Cromwell, thank you very much. You can reach out. Yeah, for sure. Thank you. Make sure to follow, listener, the Jersey Jack Pinball podcast. Ken Cromwell is hosting that, and hopefully we'll hear some of that new stuff quite soon. And go to the special media. Yeah, we've got more interviews, actually, coming from the Jersey Jack Pinball podcast. And you can reach out to the show there. It's podcast at jerseyjackpinball.com. And that's where you can reach me if you need to reach me on anything. Reach out. That's terrific. As well as go to social media, Facebooks and the Instagrams and all that, and like and follow and subscribe Jersey Jack Pinball in general so you can see all of the fun stuff that Ken has his hands in. That would mean the world to me. Thank you. Woo-hoo! You can reach me at thepinballnetwork at gmail.com. I think that scream trend did kind of get me. You can also reach out to straight down the middle of pinball series at sdt and pinball at gmail.com. We have a lot of fun stuff over there right now. Like I said, the top ten most underrated pinball machines of all time, as well as new reviews coming up with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Willy Wonka himself. Ooh. Outstanding. And top ten list for most overrated pinball machines. That one might piss a couple people off.
    134:28
    But, you know, hey, only report effects. You'll be a person. That's all. Right. And if you're ready to buy a brand new, beautiful Jersey Jack pinball machine, you know where to go. You can contact me at Flippin' Out Pinball. Me and Nicole are working diligently to provide all the customer support and satisfaction that we can muster up. So contact us at 812-457-9711 or email us at ZachZACH at FlipTheLetterInOutPinball.com or try to keep a lot of products up on the website, FlippinOutPinball.com. Remember, that's just the letter in, OutPinball.com. The Machine Showcase this week is a Stranger Things. Pro or premium in stock, as well as what else we have in stock? We have some Turtles premiums. We've got some Wonka Collector.
    135:13
    Remind me, Ken, I need to talk to you. I'm missing my Wonka. I might need to get my hands on the Collector. That is a great game. We have Collector editions left. Everything else is sold out. No. God. Yeah, all the Wonkas are gone. Can you believe it? And people, I get a daily message about Guns N' Roses. Now's the time, people. Just pull the trigger. Don't get further back in line. Just pull the trigger and let's get you in line. Let's get you going. Yep. We also have Batman 66 Premiums in stock. Escalators that are built to order, so they have a little run time. But if you want one, let's get you one ordered. Hot Wheels by American Pinball, Star Wars Comic Pro still in stock Guardians Pro, I think I've got one left of that and the pin if you want one for your office or your game room What happened last week here at TPN? Well we had a lot actually TPN providers are trying to bring everything that they can to you this holiday season and they did so with their content Silver Ball Stories aired a Christmas tale Note to self, as I was driving out to my mother and father's house I thought, Christmas tale, that sounds nice and lovely. And I played that with my kids in the car. A dark little tale that Joshua Jacobs told there. So needless to say, they said, Daddy, that's not Sandy. What's this Krampus? That's how my kids sound. 40-year-old Karens. Dad, where's the fucking manager? No. So check that out. The Puppet Pals are back, baby. Episode four. The Puppet Pals. That is a pinball treasure there. That's a lot of work for that podcast. What do you think about the Puppet Palace, Ken? It's unlike anything I have ever heard or I would expect to hear in pinball. And honestly, I don't know how you feel about that, but, I mean, that's kind of, in my opinion, the type of hard work and dedication that could be recognized for the Twippies or for the industry awards. Wow. I couldn't say it any better and agree wholeheartedly. Episode four is called The Armor. Their quest is getting deep now, and I'm scared for the puppet pals because they are meeting some unsavory people along their way. It seems like, is Moppy speaking a little more clearly now these days?
    137:23
    Moppy's going to classes. A little bit. Speech therapy has paid off for Moppy. We know a good one. We set him up, and he's still a mop, but he's good. He's getting good. Steve's still gullible. Poor Steve. God, they're hookers, Steve. They're hookers that you were talking to. Jeez. Sorry. Is hooker the politically incorrect way to say? I believe it's prostitute. Is that the nomenclature that is preferred? I don't really know. I haven't dabbled, but. Sexual worker?
    137:54
    Silverball Chronicles. I don't know, man. Take me out of that conversation. God knows the false narrative that comes from disgusting prostitutes on the Pinball Network. Oh, this week's new, Ben Cromwell. Right.
    138:09
    Silver Ball Chronicles. Everybody loves those. Talk about a podcast, the highlight this year, the birth of Silver Ball Chronicles exclusively on the Pinball Network is covering Pat Lawler. Huh? How about that? Yeah. Right there. I like that. But they're going to cover the, actually, the later years, Pat Lawler's Stern years, maybe JJP years. So check that out. It's called Lawler Pinballs. Rollercoaster Tycoon. Only. I'd like to give a little shout-out to David Dennis and Ron Hallett. Those guys are knocking it out of the park over there. We were talking about it at one point. That's a timeless podcast. You can refer anybody to those shows, and they can really get a background on pinball. And I think that's something that's interesting and something that has not been done and benefits the community tremendously. TPN this week. You know, I don't know. We might get a final round this week, I believe. Make sure to They got the reach arounds over there Final round pinball podcast The reach around awards Those are going to be debuting I believe the day before The reach around awards What the heck is that The reach around awards That's too many awards shows Cancel that The gall of them to have a reach around award When there's all these pinball awards shows Come on Jeff Teolis and Marty Robbins The guys over there love satire And they do it so well with their sponsor of the week Now they're doing it with an award ceremony called the Reach Arounds, where the winners are selected by whoever gives them the most money. So there you go, the Reach Arounds. There's going to be no winners. Nobody gives money out in pinball. That's just the dead face of it. That is true. So check that out. But this week we might get some final round action. We're due for a couple more. But I will say this. For those of you who are still listening, what is wrong with you? No one likes two-hour podcast. can. Get your votes in for the Pinball Industry Awards Pinball Machine Hall of Fame. It's free. It's easy. It's fun. Careful. You may actually have fun. Submit it. It's a lot of fun. It takes two seconds. Go to the pinballindustryawards.com to submit your vote now. And podcasters, streamers, if you're listening to this, we have created a platform for your voice to be heard. We need, for objectivity purposes, as much representation as possible. So please, we're going to have a lot of fun. submit that on the website so that we can get you some eligibility to vote for those very transparent entertaining awards we want to hear what the critics and the experts have to say about this year's accomplishments in pinball and you said that's the key have fun, embrace it, relax have some fun guys have some fun Ken Cromwell, I think there's only one way to outro this show alright ladies and gentlemen that's going to do it for this episode of the pinball show for Zach Mennie. I'm Ken Cromwell. Always practice safe pinball and I can feel it coming in the air tonight. Up. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody. Now I've been waiting for this moment for all my life.
    141:12
    Oh, Lord. And I remember the word You're saying, Oh, Lord? I thought he was saying hold on. Shit, my mind is blown. Oh, Lord.
    141:29
    Hold on. Shit. I'll be telling everybody who they should be voting for if they're smart. You can say you'll tell everybody who they should be voting for if they're smart. Oh, absolutely. I love that. Okay.
    141:43
    This one's for you, buddy. Thank you. Still haven't gotten the text with my Xbox Series X on it. So I guess I was not on Santa's list over at Flippin' Out. I guess that's what you get when you leave TPN.
    142:04
    Nothing. I'm kidding, man. I was on Twitch and like somebody had, this lady had like these, they were like fake ears. And she's like, oh, it's in your left ear. Oh, it's in your right ear. And I guess people fall asleep to this. I just don't understand this shit. I don't know how it really... It pisses me off. You know who was listening to that a little bit? I think it was Steve Beattie. Steve Beattie got in a little bit to the ASMR. He's like, oh, it's just so relaxing. I can see that. He's a fucking dead man. Yeah, he's a chill dude.
    142:36
    I don't give a shit. It was weird the last time I was there, he asked me to rub his ears directly. I thought that was kind of sad.
    142:43
    I was like, what is this called? I'm waiting for the morning And the end of the night Hold on But I've been waiting for the moment For all my life Hold on