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The 2024 State of Zen with Mel Kirk

BlahCade Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 16m·analyzed·Nov 11, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Mel Kirk reports Zen Studios recovering post-downsizing with VR/mobile launches and AtGames momentum.

Summary

Mel Kirk discusses Zen Studios' 2024 performance and future roadmap with hosts Chris Freebus and Jared Morgan. Key topics include the successful latency fix for AtGames cabinets (rebuilt codebase, 18-month effort), expansion of licensed table releases (5 skins announced with 15 as long-term target), VR game announcement for Q1 2025, mobile game closed beta launch, and studio stabilization after pandemic-era downsizing (back to 75 employees from 140+). Zen refocused on core pinball platform distribution across PC, console, mobile, VR, and AtGames after cutting non-pinball projects.

Key Claims

  • AtGames latency issue required complete codebase rebuild with 18-month effort; now below 60ms latency

    high confidence · Mel Kirk directly described the technical solution and timeline, framed as major technical achievement

  • 52 pinball tables coming to AtGames platform in 2025, with day-and-date releases planned for June 2025

    high confidence · Mel confirmed PK's announcement and targeted June launch for synchronized Pinball FX/AtGames releases

  • VR game will launch Q1 2025 (March/April) on Meta Quest 3, featuring never-before-seen VR implementations of certain games

    high confidence · Mel announced formal reveal expected January/February with Q1 release target

  • Mobile game closed beta launching within days with simple monetization: buy tables or ad-based gameplay

    high confidence · Mel stated closed beta going live in 'couple days' with specific pricing model details

  • Zen Studios currently at 75 employees (down from 140+ during expansion), back to pre-acquisition size

    high confidence · Mel directly stated current headcount and recovery trajectory with recent hires

  • Saber Interactive option to acquire Zen fell apart months ago; Zen now controlled by Embracer parent company

    high confidence · Mel confirmed Saber's failed acquisition option and Embracer reorganization status

  • Five AtGames cabinet skins released to date: Jurassic Park, Star Trek, Attack from Mars, Peanuts, Addams Family

    high confidence · Mel enumerated released skins during discussion of cabinet momentum

  • AtGames cabinets will appear in retail locations but specific retailers not disclosed pending official announcement

    medium confidence · Mel hedged statement about retail placement: 'I think I can say it... I'm not going to say which one specifically'

Notable Quotes

  • “We completely rebuilt the code base... We went all the way back to zero, and everything is Linux-based now... It was a monumental effort.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~15:30 — Explains technical depth of latency fix; demonstrates scale of engineering commitment

  • “I feel like my team was about ready to give up. We never give up on anything... we were literally celebrating when we got the test back and the latency was what it was and below 60 MS.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~16:45 — Emotional weight to technical achievement; builds credibility for product quality claims

  • “As far as a partnership goes, you know, like I'm impressed that they would go in... At Games' investment into this is huge. And they've bought ahead. They risked a lot to go forward with this.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~48:00 — Signals strong AtGames commitment despite manufacturing delays; validates partnership resilience

  • “We survived a very difficult period and you know the game industry has been brutal the last couple years a lot of studios failed... we're currently at 75 people.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~62:30 — Acknowledges industry-wide downsizing context; frames Zen recovery as noteworthy survival

  • “I've gone back to platform and making quality platforms in which that can house good pinball content and then expanding distribution.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~68:00 — Articulates post-downsizing strategic focus: platform-first approach across multiple distribution channels

  • “I don't want to over hype it... as someone who's worked in pinball now for nearly 20, like 15 17 years... I feel like it's really fresh and really cool.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~40:00 — VR game positioning as genuinely innovative despite restrained messaging; builds credibility through restraint

  • “I do think the family or the player who's investing this much money, they turn it on right now. There's a good amount of content, but at some point it's going to be like, well, this is a lot.”

    Mel Kirk @ ~35:00 — Acknowledges new user acquisition friction regarding library size and pricing perception

Entities

Mel KirkpersonChris FreebuspersonJared MorganpersonZen StudioscompanyAtGamescompanyEmbracer GroupcompanyPKpersonSaber InteractivecompanyPinball FXproductAtGames Legends 4K Cabinetproduct

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Zen Studios recovered from severe 2023-2024 downsizing (140+ to 75 employees), refocused on core pinball platform, returned to profitability indicators, and now hiring again; corporate independence secured after Saber acquisition option fell through

    high · Mel Kirk: 'we survived a very difficult period... currently at 75 people... we've added a couple people recently... we see our recovery happening... all of our indicators... looking healthy'

  • ?

    community_signal: Zen planning live services, events, and esports-level tournament opportunities tied to cabinet and mobile releases; emphasis on family/household engagement and inclusive content library

    medium · Mel Kirk: 'flipper friends tournaments... larger scale events... celebrate other forms of fandom... maybe... esports level activity where it's money on the line'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Zen managing backglass image licensing complexity: licensors require approval for asset distribution, monetization questions, and tracking of asset usage prevent simple public releases

    medium · Mel Kirk on backglass images: 'you do have to put all those through for licensure approval. And then they're always wondering... where's this going to go? And are we going to monetize?'

  • $

    market_signal: Zen exiting mobile pinball market after years of absence; re-entering with simplified monetization philosophy (no gotcha systems, direct purchases or ad-based play) targeting underserved audience without gaming PC/console access

    high · Mel Kirk: 'It's been quite a while since we were in mobile... We're just focusing on being the very best portable pinball experience... no monetization gimmicks'

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.228

0:00
blockade pinball podcast this is the blockade pinball podcast i'm your host chris freebus aka shut your trap joining me as always halfway across the world is jared morgan well hello there everyone and then because it is our annual state of zen with mel kirk also hey it's mel kirk hey everybody good to be back here jerry chris it's been a while yeah it's been a been a been a solid year they're uh very busy year for uh for everybody around uh going around here um so yeah this is our annual talk about uh all things zen where we've uh been this past year where we're going for down the line in the future. But definitely the thing that's been most prominent on my mind, it's been that at-games cabinet. Because, Mel, I'm not kidding you, it's the only way I want to play pinball anymore.
1:07
Playing on a dedicated cabinet is so amazing. It's like, I know that you've seen that I had that pin-sim cabinet before, and I had a monitor that was in vertical, and that was one way of playing. But now with a physical machine that you can nudge around and bash around on, that's amazing. That's definitely where it's at for me. Yeah, that's good to hear because a lot of work has gone into that, and it's taken several generations and a lot of trial and error over the years. I think we've talked about the potential of cabinets, and I think that we're finally just now getting to the point where the vision is being realized. Yeah. Yeah, and it seems like, speaking with your partnership with AtGames in particular, it's really been gaining momentum in terms of how often you've had releases coming. Obviously, you have, what, I think four skins out now for the machines?
2:04
Yeah, I'd have to count them. I mean, I know Jurassic is the last one that we announced, and we've got Star Trek, Attack from Mars, Peanuts, and... Oh, and Atoms, so that's five. And Atoms Family, five. Yeah. And that was of the way back when we think we'd said, what, 15 was the target. Are we still looking at 15 down the line or has that plan changed a little bit? Yeah, I think we are. There's been a significant number of challenges in the manufacturing landscape. And, you know, PK over at AtGames, I think he's got to be one of the best in the world at managing this stuff because he's done it for so long. And even when he's talking to me about the challenges they're facing, it is a real tricky situation. Yeah. Both just with pieces of things available and materials and then shipping costs and all this stuff. So we got out of the gate really good. And I think that it was really well timed. If we had waited for later, it might not have gone so smoothly. But we still have a plan to get all those machines out. This is going to take a little while longer. but I'm looking at what we've done in this short amount of time. Five, especially the licenses we have, I think it's pretty great. So, yes, there's definitely more coming.

  • “Do you feel that Zen is in control of their own future now? Yes, I do.”

    Mel Kirk / Chris Freebus @ ~73:00 — Direct confirmation of operational independence post-Saber negotiation failure; strategic inflection point

    • Pinball M
    product
    Mission Pinball Frameworkproduct
    Netflixcompany
    Applecompany
    Meta Quest 3product
    Farsight Studioscompany

    market_signal: AtGames pursuing retail placement expansion to drive cabinet discovery and trial experiences; consumer pricing and reliability positioned as competitive advantages

    medium · Mel Kirk: 'You will see these machines in retailers' (pending announcement); emphasized one-minute startup and 15-second load times as differentiators

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Zen shifting RPG team resources to platform infrastructure work; pursuing new major RPG greenlight to restore multi-genre development beyond pinball-only focus

    high · Mel Kirk: 'a lot of the rpg team worked in that... gave them a breath of fresh air'... 'I am pitching a very big one. I'm hopeful it's going to be greenlit'

  • $

    market_signal: Zen using $5 per-table micro-pricing strategy for AtGames/digital releases to reduce friction vs. larger pack purchases; designed to feel equivalent to single coffee transaction

    high · Chris Freebus praised pricing model: 'five bucks a table has been great it doesn't feel as painful... one less Starbucks a week as opposed to... two days of lunch'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Original 15-cabinet skin target not met; currently at 5 skins released with timeline extended due to manufacturing and supply chain constraints (global shortages, shipping costs, materials availability)

    high · Mel Kirk: 'significant number of challenges in manufacturing landscape'... 'might not have gone smoothly' if timed later; still targeting 15 as long-term goal

  • ?

    product_strategy: AtGames cabinets underwent comprehensive latency fix via complete Linux-based codebase rebuild, accompanied by graphics enhancements, sound balancing, and surround sound kit optimization

    high · Mel Kirk: 'We completely rebuilt the code base... We went all the way back to zero, and everything is Linux-based now... monumental effort' working on latency 18 months

  • ?

    product_strategy: Zen roadmap includes: 52 pinball tables for AtGames in 2025; day-and-date Pinball FX/AtGames releases starting June 2025; VR game Q1 2025 release (Meta Quest 3); mobile game closed beta imminent with full launch expected Q1 2025

    high · Mel Kirk confirmed multiple release dates and PK's 52-table announcement; targeted June 2025 for synchronized releases

  • ?

    business_signal: Zen pivoted to platform-first multi-distribution strategy: every new table must release across PC, console, mobile, VR, and AtGames simultaneously rather than staggered ports

    high · Mel Kirk: 'every time we make a table it needs to go to pc console mobile vr and at games right so having that wide pipe'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Zen transitioning digital pinball engine architecture from proprietary to Unreal-based (implied by earlier context about PX Engine); AtGames builds feature exclusive surround sound functionality unavailable on OTG/Steam versions

    medium · Mel Kirk noted OTG versions don't support SSF kit; table angle differences between cabinet and regular modes suggest platform-specific optimizations

    • 3:18
    Obviously, this past year, a lot of the, I mean, basically since the release of Adam's Family there, a lot of the focus had been on the latency issues, and that has since been shored up. The games play phenomenal now. They're really, like, it's really tight with the flipper and the ball going. You feel definitely connected.
    3:41
    Can you dive into a little bit about what went into solving that latency problem? Because it seems like you guys were in discussions with all sorts of people to try and solve this issue.
    3:54
    Yeah, I mean, we completely rebuilt the code base. Oh, geez. Wow. We went all the way back to zero, and everything is Linux-based now. and yeah, it was pretty crazy. It was a monumental effort. This problem we worked on 18 months, I feel like my team was about ready to give up. We never give up on anything.
    4:19
    So we found a few things which led us to where we went. It was a very painstakingly slow process. I know everybody was super patient with us, But now that it's done and we now don't have to worry about it anymore, we were literally celebrating when we got the test back and the latency was what it was and below 60 MS and everything. So it's finally fixed, but probably one of the biggest efforts to fix a problem that we've ever had to do. Yeah. Spend resource wise. Yeah. And I noticed that it wasn't just latency that got fixed.
    5:00
    There were some graphical enhancements that went in when this all came back out. Certain tables all of a sudden looked a little bit better. And then all the sound got balanced out so that it was all equal across. And it seemed like the surround sound kit all of a sudden was really being utilized much more than it had been previously. yeah i think all this take takes time to come together um you know we are software at games is hardware although i mean you got to make their own tables too but to bring two kind of you know companies in and really have to like get down to the nitty-gritty to make everything uh phenomenal it takes time it's like you know year after year uh technologies get better yeah get a little cheaper you know that's just a normal progression uh so i think that we're in a place now where, yeah, all the cool, like the SSF kit. I don't know if you've played Knight Rider yet, but in my opinion, like, dude, that thing is banging with the SSF. No, honestly, Knight Rider and Battlestar are just like putting it through a workout. It feels so good. And I was telling Jared this earlier, because I can play in OTG mode also. I have my computer hooked up to it. And while the lighting effects are, and the graphics are a little bit, well, I shouldn't say a little bit, a lot better with just playing it in Pinball FX or playing in Pinball M, without that surround sound feel, it's not as immersive.
    6:34
    Just feeling the pop numbers going off, feeling the ball rolling around, everything, it just sinks you in, and you no longer are concerned about, oh my gosh, there's a Jaggi on that rail. It doesn't matter anymore. it's about where is that ball and you can tell what's firing and where it is on the table it's yeah yeah i think the overall experience is really really great and um what we hear from a lot of players uh i mean their whole family is enjoying it we have a wide variety of content so it's you know their kids can play my like i have pictures people send me their pictures and it makes life great you know you see someone's little daughter's playing my little pony and then the mom and dad Like recently we've got, you know, some of the M rated stuff and they're like, we're celebrating Halloween, you know, and it's like, it's cool. So that's what pinball should be about. And all the pieces, all the hardware is now in sync with the software. And we've gotten a lot of the issues behind us. I think now what we need to do is make sure that people can experience the machine in like more locations to figure out if they want to get one. Yeah. And I think that we're going to, you know, from here we should, we should really start to scale up. Do you feel like there is a... I know that PK made an announcement, something to the effect that there's 52 tables coming in 2025.
    7:51
    When I did a breakdown of the math of what that meant, if I excluded all Star Wars and the Marvel tables, there's exactly 53 tables that have not been ported over yet. I don't know if those 53 are the ones coming over or anything like that, But do you feel like there's a time where the tables are going to be day-and-date release on Pinball FX and then also at the AtGames platform?
    8:15
    Yeah, hopefully that'll happen in 2025. I think that we have a release coming in June, and I think that's the target to launch day-and-day. So when Zen announces a game, you'll see the AtGames logo on the logo garden. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, that's great. circling back to that SSF kit, and just kind of some of the things I've noticed in general, bouncing back and forth between ad games and playing OTG mode, cabinet mode of Pinball FX and Pinball M.
    8:48
    First off, is there a point where those games can utilize the surround kit in ad games' cabinet? Or is that an exclusive thing to them? oh from the otg i see yes no that's an exclusive feature uh you know all the all these builds of the games on at games are all extra work extra coding engineering um it's a special build for at games so the otg versions don't support the ssf kit okay the steam versions right yes yes game. Similarly, I know that the table angle on cabinet mode in Pinball M and Pinball FX is kind of a slight angle, like the rails are going in a little bit towards the top, as opposed to, and this would be both with previous mobile versions, and then what's going on with ad games, where it is a straight, right down the pipe, overhead look.
    9:49
    Is that a, again, is that a choice specific to knowing that Is cabinet mode, even though you offer cabinet in Pinball FX, or is that something that maybe we'll see one day also pop into the games proper? All right, so you kind of stumped me here because I'm actually not aware of that. Ah.
    10:05
    That is the detail of a product, you know, like we should have. I'm sure it's a design decision, and I leave those for the most part now to the team. Okay. So it's probably specifically for the format in which you're playing. We probably find that to be best on the AtGames unit. Yeah. Yep.
    10:29
    Good question, though. Last one that kind of goes along with this in terms of the difference between having cabinet mode, just regular game, and when you're also bringing it over to a cabinet. and I know that we've touched on this in the past but every time a new title comes out I have to go on the back glass hunt and find my own image to import it into Pinball FX and what's funny is that sometimes the images that then pop up on at games are completely different than what everybody else has been finding whether on the Zen site or whatever is there a licensing reason or something that prevents Zen from just making them readily available or even shipping with the game itself?
    11:18
    It's a funny question, and it's something we've been talking about for years and years, right? I just don't think that we've seen the value in doing it, or maybe, or the request isn't big enough compared to the requests we have for everything else. So it's a lot of art assets and management, And then you do have to put all those through for licensure approval. And then they're always wondering, like, where's this going to go? And are we going to monetize it? And all these questions. And I think it just gets bogged down because it's just an add-on asset. We're not charging for it, but we can't really. We show them a back glass and they kind of don't get it. But, I mean, I just think there's been a concerted effort to go get it done. So I'm making a bunch of excuses right now.
    12:02
    No, I mean, like, we should probably. At this point, now that we've solved all these other issues, we can probably figure this out. Okay.
    12:11
    Moving beyond that, so you were talking about how right now you're able to kind of focus more on, now that you've got the latency issues and all that, centering your focus once again, narrowing it down and being able to work on the content more with at games. I'm curious to know in general how are we feeling about like are we where is Zen where they want to be with those releases with 4K or are there even dreams and aspirations you guys are hoping to still pump through later down the line you mean with actual 4K just using the 4K cabinet I'm talking about the 4K against 4K cabinet what we want to do with it I think there's so much potential here.
    13:05
    I don't want to get too far ahead of it because we do have plans for more live services and events and things that people can participate in and building that sense of community.
    13:17
    And I think that there's a lot that we can do. When a player has invested that much money, or I consider it like a family has invested that much money in this unit and it goes into their home. of course we want to give them a steady stream of content that they can have fun with but like there's more that we can do with that content we can provide them more value with every table it's not just that they have to play it and we have their leaderboards and now they're doing the flipper friends tournaments and things like that i think that you'll see those ideas like blossom into um larger scale events you know and we can tie those in with our licensors we can celebrate other forms of what's going on in the fandom of those ips perhaps um i don't know maybe like there's e-sport level activity where it's, you know, money on the line. There's a lot of cool things that we can potentially do.
    14:05
    The potential for releasing these cabinets in the physical world, again, I know this is not, has nothing to do with you guys. It would be entirely at games.
    14:17
    But I know that recently I saw Stern had their Jurassic Park Home Edition in Costco and yeah, people were playing it. And I know the last Christmas, that's when I had saw the, the arcade one-up Star Wars in Costco. I imagine that that's what you're talking about with getting these out there more is being able to maybe have these at physical locations.
    14:44
    Exactly. And that is definitely on our roadmap. You will, you will see these machines. I think I can say it. I mean, I don't know. You'll, you'll see these machines in retailers. I'm not going to say which one specifically but I think people will walk up to this most people know what to do when they walk up to a pinball machine that's the beauty of it they have to hear it and feel it and be like whoa this thing is for real this really feels good and it plays well and look at all these games I think our price point is really really attractive I think how the quality of the machine and it not breaking down is really really great when you turn it on you connect it to wifi all the things you get to do with it So I think it's really, it's not a hard sell. People just need to be able to know it exists and get a feel for it. Honestly, that's my favorite part is that from the time they flick the switch to the time I'm playing, it's one minute.
    15:32
    And then even table to table, it's only maybe like a 15-second load screen. It's just boom, you're in it and you're going. I have a little, my wife does daycare at the house, and I have a, one of them is three years old, this boy. and he's now addicted to pinball. He just wants to play the dinosaur tables. And so first he was playing Dino Dynasty and then Jurassic Park came out and he doesn't even touch Dino Dynasty anymore. It's the three Jurassic Park tables.
    16:03
    So it's really kind of fun watching him and watching his pinball skills elevate. It's kind of mind-blowing just watching that happen in real time. So yeah, I definitely see where that potential is.
    16:16
    People getting their hands on them. I also wanted to comment with those that block of tables will be coming next year and I know that just this past month it seems like we've had a table release almost weekly and I do got to say it felt like rock band as they were releasing new music tracks every week if you're on top of it you don't even notice the cost and I definitely have to applaud you guys with your pricing five bucks a table has been great it doesn't feel like it's not as painful when you're dropping in those little doses as opposed to a much larger pack where all of a sudden it's like, oh, maybe I have to think about that.
    16:58
    Because it's one thing to think, oh, just one less Starbucks a week as opposed to, oh, I'm going to have to not go out to lunch for two days.
    17:06
    Yeah. I think because you've been there kind of since the beginning, I think a new user, and this is a problem that we have in pinball world in general, a brand new player comes in and holy crap. I can spend so much. It's too much.
    17:22
    I do think the family or the player who's investing this much money, they turn it on right now. There's a good amount of content, but at some point it's going to be like, well, this is a lot. Yeah.
    17:36
    That's okay. People like the choice. People like the variety. I do think the pricing is good, though. I agree with you. It definitely seems fair. I think that was my biggest concern was what was going to be the difference in price between if you bought it on Steam and if you bought it on this cabinet. And then just like I said, that surround sound kit, A, it's an essential thing to buy. Folks, if you haven't bought one of these machines yet, get the surround sound kit. It's the deal. It's what makes all the difference in the world. and it's like I said I almost, I shouldn't say I almost I definitely prefer playing these versions over going OTG and bringing in those because it's just instantaneous and that feel is what makes it just hands down no I definitely gotta say Mel that great job on making this happen have you noticed, and I don't know, again, if this is anything that you want to talk about, just, I know that when you were with, partnered with 1UP, that there was a distribution issue, and obviously that was during the COVID era, so massive amounts of problems going on there.
    18:55
    Distribution of this obviously like you said there been some manufacturing differences but I believe that they doing things in America now Is that what my understanding is correct
    19:07
    Some assembly? Some assembly might be done here. I mean, everything is shipped into the port of L.A. We have a distribution center somewhere in Georgia. I believe it's Savannah, Georgia.
    19:18
    But I think that the factors with at-games are different than what happened with Arcade 1-Up. I think Arcade 1Up lost interest in the category for whatever reason. At Games, we're just suffering from global shortages, which there's no way that they could control or have an effect on. So it's two different things. Like the issues, I wouldn't even call them issues. I just think that they're factors and things that you couldn't have planned for or guessed. And even then, At Games' investment into this is huge. And they've bought ahead. They risked a lot to go forward with this. So, you know, as far as a partnership goes, you know, like I'm impressed that they would go in. It feels good. Like Zen is investing a certain amount, and they are on the manufacturing side. Like I can still hit a button and distribute to all, you know, hundreds of millions of players, right, with the push of a button. And they are focusing on growing a very specific segment of this business, and it requires a lot of upfront. And so they're trying to minimize all of the issues that we're facing. But some of it might be like we can't get to 15 different designs in the time that we want. And, well, here's five. I still think that's a fantastic result so far. All right. Well, that's enough of the at-games talk. Jared, let's turn some things over to you so you can get a chance at asking a question or two. yeah well look you know i know that's uh you know telling out the the at game stuff i know there's not really any sort of distribution partnership for it down here in oceania uh yet from what i'm aware of i don't really expect any commentary about that um but so what i need to know is if i don't have a cabinet how else can we play things outside of like a computer and i've jumped to vr So I'm wondering, what's happening with VR?
    21:16
    Okay, we announced that there's a VR game in production. I don't know how many months ago. Sometime this year. It was in a Pinball Bites, I think. It was in a Pinball Bites? Yeah.
    21:27
    I think, I mean, we just showed some glimpses, you know, and the game has come a long way, and I'm really, really excited. I think we're going to be able to formally announce and show a lot in probably January or February of next year. That's great. Oh, Chris, I hope he's okay. Yeah, as Chris dies.
    21:47
    Sorry, I've been battling a massive chest cold. It's not fun, so yeah. Oh, no. If I turn red, folks, this is what.
    21:58
    Yeah, and then I expect we're going to be releasing, like I say Q1. I don't want to, like March, April, something like that. The game should be out.
    22:07
    And it's awesome. there's so much I want to say but this is one of the after working in pinball for a long time and doing the same thing some people would say over and over and over how can that be fun every once in a while you get to reinvent it in a way and we're doing some things that are going to be I think they're going to really freshen things up so if you have we're going to be on Quest first on Quest Meta 3 quest 3 and you know what the quest 3 can do all the certain things so you can let your imagination run wild I see where you're going here interesting, very very interesting I don't want to over hype it I'll let you all decide for me as someone who's worked in pinball now for nearly 20, like 15 17 years, whatever it's been I feel like it's really fresh and really cool that's going to be amazing so we just need to wait just that little bit longer maybe first I'd say first half of next year and that under promises so you can over deliver it's also going to be the very first time when certain games ever see VR that I know everybody wants to play oh wow ok you should stop talking about it you're going to get into a lot of trouble it sounds like you really want to tell us everything yeah he sounds like you want to really tell us everything but we should stop there um which so the other way that you know has been um a bit of a gap in the market for a while now with um the studio is mobile um i'm wondering what you can tell us about the developments in mobile yeah so we're going live with a closed beta on the mobile game um in a couple days and i'm sure we'll get you and Chris in there as well. Sounds great. This will be the first. It's been quite a while since we were in mobile, and we're definitely missing that part of just having a presence, a modern-day presence. I can tell you we're trying to keep it simple.
    24:18
    You can buy tables, or you can play ad-based gameplay. So that's it. There's no monetization gimmicks. There's no gotcha systems. There's no anything. And we're just focusing on being the very best portable pinball experience. And right. And that's it. Like not trying to be too smart. So if you like our tables and you want to play them on your phone or your iPad and just have them with you anywhere, it's going to be available. And simple as that. And of course, we're going to have cool features and live services and leaderboards and all the fun tournament stuff and different modes. And we'll see how it goes and just keep expanding it as we find success. Because mobile is much different than PC and console, as you know, just in terms of running a business, like running a live service game on mobile. But, yeah, I'm really excited that it will be here soon.
    25:09
    That's really good. That's good news. More ways to play pinball when you're out and about. Yes. And just separate yourself from the world for just that little bit. It's good. Really, really good. Well, we have tons of players who that's where they play. They don't have a console PC or a cabinet or a headset.
    25:27
    They've just been asking for years and finally getting it to them. Yeah, because I know that I have a friend who doesn't have a PC that can handle gaming anymore. But he's like, I got a phone. I'm waiting.
    25:43
    Yeah, actually, we've learned so much these last couple of years working with Apple and Netflix. We did the Zen Pinball Party and we did Pinball Masters with Netflix. Let me tell you, we learned so much about UI and mobile app design. I feel like we're going to bring you the best we probably could have, and I'm so glad we made those other games. Otherwise, it might have still been clunky. But now it's going to be really nice. I know you've definitely done, like, over the course of the studio, there's always been a lot of experimentation in the wild with mobile, like, all the time. You were pushing out different apps, different ways of playing, you know. So it's good to see all that hard work's paid off finally, and you've got something that's sort of where you want to be now, or at least at the point where you think it's ready to have people look at it and give you that feedback that you need.
    26:36
    Yeah, absolutely. So when you guys get in there, we'll definitely want your feedback. Okay. So we're ready.
    26:47
    Somebody will be reaching out in a couple of days, So you'll be in it. Yeah, great. Let's move it over into just the studio itself, Zen Studios.
    26:58
    See where we are in things. I know that when we last talked, obviously you guys had gone through a crunch of having to pare down. Wondering where we are at this point in staffing. Are we maintaining status quo or are we back to expanding the studio?
    27:16
    Yeah. So we did. we survived a very difficult period and you know the game industry has been brutal the last couple years a lot of studios failed and uh we're we're currently at 75 people uh which is basically the size we were when we were acquired so okay we we did a big scale up we were at 140 plus and yeah now we're at back to 75 and uh i'd say so we've added a couple people recently and i think we're going to be we are hiring a couple roles so we see our recovery happening uh all of our indicators and you know things that we look at as a business healthy yeah uh we're doing well again so that's good uh um and i've seen this happen in the industry a couple times but i'd say this one was the scariest just in terms of the crazy amount of what was going on around us is chaotic and scary. Yeah. So feel very fortunate that we have a, um, uh, you know, our supporters support us and like pinball is decent enough business that it keeps everybody going and yet inflation has hit. I mean like things, uh, we have completely different economics now, uh, for what it costs to build a pinball table. So, but still, um, the, the fan base and the player base is big enough. And, you know, even though we made some mistakes along the way and some interesting decisions, that didn't pan out, like we were, we're still here and things are looking good.
    28:46
    Are you, uh, is, is the studio still, uh, doing games outside of pinball or have things just kind of narrowed their focus into only pinball? Yeah. So that was, you know, when we went, after we went through the reduction, uh, we, we basically went back to home base and we kind of said, we're going back to our roots. And so that's been our mission for the last 12 months and it's been all pinball related and a lot of the tables that were greenlit during that uh that expansion those are the ones that are releasing now but what we what we're really focusing on is uh i've gone back to platform and making quality platforms uh in which that can house good pinball content and then expanding distribution so the vr game the mobile game working with at games uh every time we make a table it needs to be it needs to go to pc console mobile vr and at games right so having that wide Pipe.
    29:40
    During that time, we haven't been developing any other games. Remember, we had Planet Minigolf, which was live in early access. We actually removed that from Steam and paused that for the time being. We don't have an RPG in development right now, although we are pitching a very big one. I'm hopeful it's going to be greenlit, and then we will have the RPG team back in action.
    30:02
    Then you'll see that multi-facet of Zen. I think a healthy Zen is when we have more than just one genre being supported our expertise is pinball mini golf rpg i'd love this and also for the team just you know because a lot of those guys they they'll work on pinball as long as as long as they you know it's here but i know that what they really want to do so um at least some of them like you know uh but that team is creating a lot of great platform for us like pinball and i think was a breath of fresh air um oh yeah with what they did and that's you know a lot of the rpg team worked in that oh okay oh right that's really good i mean you know having multiple having multiple avenues for revenue for a studio is just good business anyhow so you know it's good to see that you know there are like that that actually speaks to like you know more of a studio health perspective as well that you're thinking about that in the future because a lot of people when all the the reductions were happening it was going you know what's what's going to happen with the studio like you know is it you know is this the end sort of thing it was very doomsday um but i think yeah this plans the plans you're making now will shore that up a little bit so you've got a couple of different pathways to go down if you need to which is good yeah i think so and again i mean i can't overstate you know like when things were falling apart for a lot of companies and we and we were cutting you know headcount still that our our baseline revenue is enough to support the operation as it is, and players supporting us. So we're all very grateful for that. Do you feel that Xen is in control of their own future now? Yes, I do. Okay. That's really good. That's great. I don't know, you guys probably saw the announcement that Saber Interactive was not able to, like, we were, us and 4A Games were kind of in limbo. Yes, we did see that a while ago. Saber had the option to buy us, And that option fell apart a couple months ago. And so we now know that we're an Embracer company. Embracer is currently splitting into three different groups. We're not exactly sure where we're going to end up, but I have the freedom and the latitude to do as I want now, which is, I think, good. We got into some trouble under the old regime. Excellent. That's really good to hear. Yeah, especially – and I don't know exactly what the extent of it is, but it's like I had heard that Farsight, who – I mean they've been done with pinball for years now. But I had heard that their last employee that had anything to do with pinball had left, and it was kind of like, okay, I think that is officially the nail in the coffin on that. But it did make me think of one thing, and that is they're still very much in control, as far as I can tell, of the Gottlieb license. And I don't know if you know anything about the Gottlieb license. We keep on pitching that Magic Pixel needs to get that license because we think they would just run away with it. Do you have any insight into Gottlieb's license?
    33:11
    Not a whole lot. We were approached a while ago about it. And I just think that timing is everything in a lot of cases.
    33:21
    I don't think that it was interesting to us at that point, but it could be. And, you know, Magic Pixel might be a good – you know, there's a lot of alignment. We work with Magic Pixel on a daily basis and, of course, with that game. So I think there's really – there's this thing now. It used to be, like, we're competitors. Yeah. Now it's like we're all very friendly, and we see opportunity to grow a category, classic gaming. And pinball is a big part of it to really keep the hobby alive and keep it healthy. So I hope it ends up in a good home. And, you know, if that's Magic Pixel or something like that, that would be great.
    34:01
    Shall we move on to the next category? Like the LED Speechless? No, no, no. It makes us think. Yeah, it really does. It's a hanging license, and it's like, you know, the godly pedigree goes on for decades. It is such a massive opportunity for whoever picks it up. I really hope it doesn't just rot and stay there and not be picked up because it's just got so much potential, you know. So, yeah, anyhow. But moving on, where are we going to go next? I think we're going into... Let's go to Pinball M. Yes, it's the land of Pinball M. Now, how's it going in the pinball in land after like a year now? Hasn't it been since it was released? Almost a year. It was supposed to release the week before Halloween of 2023, and we muffed it.
    34:57
    It ended up releasing like at the end of November. And so we didn't, you know, like it didn't go the way it was playing out in my head. we're going to have this Halloween release and it's going to, we're going to launch then we got the perfect IP. So like launching in November, launching a horror title in November, you can still be successful. And we have been, but I just wonder what it would have been if we, if our timing was lined up in our market. Cause we, we had great buildup to it. And then it was just like, Oh, it's not coming to Halloween. I think we were like, like we'll wait till next Halloween when it's on sale. And you know, because we just went through our Halloween sale and I can tell you, uh, we exceeded our launch revenue. Uh, Oh wow. Wow. So yes, it's going well um and that was on sale that's not like full price titles well right i mean like i've come to a reality that like pinball launches are not that exciting for most people it's exciting for our core audience and for people who love the hobby and like but you know most people are buying pinball games when they're on sale so so we i was waiting to get to this point to really know what the potential impact could be with the Halloween theme. We just did Camp Ludbrook, and we put everything, you know, decent discounts, and, yeah, it just shot through the roof. It was awesome. We had a decent year one. I'm expecting now our year two is going to be way bigger than year one. I got to say that it feels like there were some real leaps and bounds within Pinball M that have now, you know, found its way into Pinball FX in terms of use of the video screen and uh like how you guys use that screen now is phenomenal the video clips you guys put in are just like spot on um it really feels like it's no longer just a uh we're trying to put something in there but now like you guys have a real good grasp on it and the storytelling um i don't know if you can speak to any of that yeah a lot of that actually depends on the licensure if we're talking about license content. The Princess Bride was really cool because we could just we had clips straight from the film and they made it very easy for us to access and that was part of the license grant. Other companies you need to actually pay extra to source that material and then you have a licensing fee on top of it.
    37:21
    It's like we know what our budget is per game and we can't exceed it too much. We always do I think. But really having access to the content, I think, is what will drive how much we can use that video screen and how cool it is.
    37:38
    I think so that's part of it. But then, yeah, just like with anything, as time goes on and we become more efficient and affluent with our tech and what we're doing, it's going to be better. And so I'm glad that you're seeing that.
    37:52
    It brings me to another question about this. and this is on the, I guess, the licensor side. It I imagine that there going to be some licensors out there that wouldn really be wanting to do some of their flagship brands unless they were able to fully realize them in a platform like Pinball M So, you know, full gore, full horror, that sort of thing.
    38:18
    Overall, have the licensors been really happy with the end result of all of these properties? I mean, obviously they have to approve them before they go out, but have they been going, wow, this really feels like a good fit? Yeah, there's a couple of ways to look at it. One, it's a good game and it's a good representation of their IP. So they're happy with that. They're happy with the presentation. They're happy with the reception in the market, with the sales. So I think overall it's a positive story. and I think it's going to be even more positive when we tally up what happened over the Halloween period in the game being on sale and available for Halloween and having Chucky and the thing those are iconic and then we've got these others, System Shock, which is cool just because we're friends with Night Dive Studio and Larry Kupperman over there who is a massive Pinball FX fan and we've always wanted to work together so we made it happen And it fit really well into there. And then we saw, you know, tried this, like, funky thing. Why don't we make it also available for Pinball FX and start this idea? If you buy it in one, you get it in the other, and see if we can bring players who maybe didn't know about the game into another. And we see that working, you know. So maybe there's a world where, like, we can keep making it. If we're doing an M table, we do the toned-down version for someone who doesn't want to be in M world. But, you know, we like trying these things, and it seems to be working. is there uh because i know that on steam that's the one place where it's not available uh within the platform um yeah is is that just are we at still just a roadblock on that or they're still uh pushing to get that through at some point yeah i could make headlines here no probably nobody cares like we i don't know why uh steam that steam told us not to do pinball m They said it was a stupid idea. Why would you fragment your player base? Why would you offer another game in the genre? And we told them all – I gave them the whole story, and I told them why we would do this. And then they said, fine, you can make the game. And then we did it, and it's been fine. But they've always allowed us to pioneer and do crazy things, like the backwards compatibility and some of the cross-play and cross-platform. But for this, for whatever reason, like they just don't want us doing it. I don't understand, but I have no idea really at the end of the day why they restrict us from doing this. Everybody else is fine with it. Yeah, that's really odd.
    40:50
    I mean, obviously, for the most part, Pinball M has been horror. I feel like System Shock is horror adjacent. It's not as hardcore as some of these others. do you guys feel like that you can expand from outside of horror but still with other mature themes is that kind of something that's on the forefront now in your minds it's definitely on my mind although all of the theme requests that we get are horror related you know I haven't seen anyone ask for like some raunch comedy or I don't know no but I mean there's like certain action films that lend themselves immediately to a mature theme. Comedy.
    41:38
    Just based off what you guys did with Princess Bride, there's a myriad of comedies that are, I don't know, Animal House, The Table, whatever.
    41:50
    That's what I was expecting. We just did this exercise where we're always wondering what people want. That's what we'd like to be making is what you want but i i swear it's always like horror uh when we were like saw everybody it feels like everybody wants a saw table uh i i swear like i see that everywhere um but i don't know uh chris like if you uh if you have ideas you you should tell me because i always have ideas mel you know if they and i keep on going back to you know there's where if you ever went into the anime world um you know things like akira where it's just there's some serious body horror in that thing uh that would be you know smash it for for pinball world um you know there's there's i feel like there's all sorts of genres that would definitely fit well within the pinball m uh category um is pinball m going to continue being though a zen originals only platform or do you see there being certain content that like I know there are certain Williams licenses that had alternate titles or even modern pinball today Pinball and I'll hopefully have Williams in it at some point Oh good, alright Well that sort of answers the question about it being just sort of originals as well, like there's you know a lot of this sounds like there's going to be more variety coming down eventually which is good um i'm interested in um a couple of more nerdy things um so it's more about you know always like because i mean the the job i am always looking at stats is there a table or like a pack perhaps because some of them are released in packs initially that's really performed really well on the platform. I don't know if you can talk to that. On Pinball M? Yeah, on Pinball M. It's been really well received. Yeah, I mean, so far it's all been individual releases unless you've gone to the Deathsave bundle. The Deathsave bundle is by far the most popular way to buy Pinball M content in the game.
    44:11
    And we actually see this. We see bundles doing extremely well in all of our pinball games. It would make sense, right? You get a deal and you get one purchase, one button.
    44:23
    Do you think that's why the shift was made just more broadly into releasing in bundles rather than the individuals? I know there was probably another reason behind that, but it seems that the data's there. It proves that packs do sell better. Yeah. Well, again, let's see. So we have Duke Nukem. them we have dead by daylight chucky and the thing all in the death suit bundle um or you can buy them individually so we we can we can't sell them as they're as a pack because you have different licensures but then what they'll let us do and what they're more open to now is creating uh you know the bundle so right so that that's what we would do but um like a pack of horror it might be like unless you did i don't know like you could do friday the 13th or halloween or something like They have a long range of eras in the content, so you can do a pack. But so far for Pinball M, I mean, yeah, it's mostly been individual one-off tables for the license. Yeah, speaking of Friday the 13th and Mel, I did make a back glass for Camp Bloodbrook. There, I corrected it for you guys.
    45:39
    It's funny. People were asking, oh, did you guys just fall out with the Friday the 13th license? I mean, no, this was, you know, this was our own version, our own campy B-horror film. So it was developed from scratch as that. It was. I mean, it very much feels like an 80s slasher film. Like, I think you guys nailed the theme 100%.
    46:02
    Yeah, well, I mean, it's a funny thing. Like, we had this slot available, and it probably was meant for a license at some point. but when everything was going on and we kind of had to cool on signing new things, we just said, well, do we have any good concepts for an original at the table? And Dolby brought this to us. It feels like a campy B-horror film from the 80s. Let's do it. So, yeah, that's how it happened. And Dolby's fantastic. He's been doing a great job. Yeah. It plays. It's a lot of fun to play. It really flows. I love the big knife. The big machete coming across, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's just such a cool. yeah dominant feature in the game it's great yeah it's a jump scare for sure when it gets you the first time it's like oh yeah it's great um let's talk about this just kind of uh pinball effects in general um looking forward to 2025 uh this last year we had what 12 13 tables i think in general and that's including pinball m uh we still on pace for that this next year we ramping up a little bit more? Where are we at in terms of the targeting? We'll be on pace for that same amount, if not a couple more, in 25. Okay.
    47:19
    We're going to have a lot more Williams in 25. That's good. That'll make a lot of people happy. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
    47:28
    And then, I know a lot of people have been asking, Pinball Royale. it seems that it's stalled on the idea or whatever. Where are you in terms of just multiplayer in general?
    47:46
    Yeah. So let me answer this in a different way. Yeah. Pinball, we've been cleaning up pinball effects a lot, I feel like. We tried a lot of things. We had certain ideas about things. We tried it, didn't work, learned the lesson, tried to cut it out and focus on the things that bring value and what players actually want so that that's where we've been spending a lot of time and energy this year and i feel like pinball effects is a completely different game than when it launched um that said uh pinball royale is not happening it's dead for all intents and purposes right now we have a concept for uh multiplayer uh which is going to come out next year which um i think is going to hit the right notes and um and we'll we'll see you'll everybody will tell us but yeah i'm sure they will oh they will yeah we'll know we'll know and what we'll probably do is like it probably will be released in a like first we'll do closed beta get all your feedback from you know all the nda group who tell us their honest opinions and all this stuff and if it's if it's going well it'll it'll it'll release you know but we need to solve multiplayer it's absolutely mandatory um it's it's a thing that we are going to do so that's really good i remember geez when pinball effects launched um like the brand new platform we were talking about all the way back then the notion of like a 10-year strategy for the platform and it feels like we're about i'd like to say four years maybe our date's a little bit off but let's call it almost halfway through the 10 years at the moment how are you feeling about it like five years in are you where you want to be are you a little bit behind or you know what's the feeling um if i'm being honest with you i think we're a little bit behind and i think we've hit um i think we did some pretty major mistakes um some were our fault others we had no choice and i still you know i think a lot of people wrote us off when we couldn't offer backwards compatibility and we haven't seen those players come back um i think going forward if we ever have the opportunity or we can do that we will we will do that um so i think that has set us back and i think we took a brand hit i think uh the what people think of pinball fx is different than what they thought um from fx3 i do think that we found some great surprises though some cool things which we see bringing uh bringing people in it like quest lines um those are really, really positive and a lot of fun. I think the diversity of content is more appealing than we had ever before in the history of pinball. I think there really is something for everybody there in an all-ages game in pinball effects. Everything from Williams to stuff for the kids to mass market entertainment to some surprises and indie stuff and cult following.
    50:43
    I think in that aspect, we're doing really well. I still think that we need to win back a lot of players who left us. And I don't know what it's going to take. I don't know if they'll ever come back and join us, but I hope they do. I hope that they love the game. But that pinball, their itch, will bring them into the game that they'll see that we're really working hard and trying hard to be back to our former Zen ways. Regardless, there's going to be... I was going to say, I think for those players that are still, you know, hanging on to pinball FX3, I feel that there's going to be a thing there's going to be one thing that you introduce in the next three or so years that will be the tipping point for them and they'll go, okay, I'm in like you got me, this is what I've been wanting for ages and that will be the thing that will bring them back in so I think the idea with innovation and trying new things and bringing new experiences and IPs and all that sort of stuff it may not be the way I'm thinking is like the way it might not be like the strategy as a whole but I think it's going to be the thing that will pull someone back in you'll get them and they'll understand it then cool yeah that's my hope thanks Jared inspirational right there regardless of whether Zen has the license wants the license, knows they'll never get the license. Mel, what are your top five Holy Grail tables that you would like to see in Zen at some point? Like pie in the sky, licensing being damned. What is it you would love to see?
    52:31
    I'd love to do the fifth element. I would love Starship Troopers. Oh, yes. Congo. I know that's what everybody wants as well like the Williams Congo I've been on a wild witch hunt on that one I feel like let's see Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings oh wow yeah that's some top titles right there and licensing definitely be damned on those again we can all dream we can hope on the lord of the rings side i i am playing with house money i think so hopefully we can make that happen what do you mean by that well lord of the rings is owned by embracer group so middle earth enterprise oh so if you went and were able to create your own whole story or not story but uh obviously we're not talking stern lord of the rings but your own original version of Lord of the Rings. That's right. So it's going to be an adaptation of the lore, I guess. It can't be like any existing art that's out there. Yeah, I don't think we could afford the Warner Brothers Peter Jackson.
    53:56
    Anytime you touch that, it's crazy. But we could do our own interpretation of Lord of the Rings. Maybe you could afford the Amazon version.
    54:06
    Or go old school. Go Ralph Bakshi animated Hobbit. There we go. Oh, wow. That's something. That's a deep cut right there. Don't do that.
    54:17
    That was my childhood right there. And we can't not ask this question because we're going to ask it every single year. Real world studios that are out there, any nuggets, anything that we can go, it's a possibility in the future.
    54:38
    I wouldn't say right now. We're all friends. We all talk. We all dream. Okay. We all have ideas. But, I mean, it's difficult. Like, if you think about it, Zen needs to make money. The manufacturer needs to make money. The licensor needs to make money. It's like, I mean, I don't know. How can you split up that so everybody's happy? I was going to say, it's a lot of slices of pie right there.
    55:00
    That's the challenge. Yeah. Well, let's go ahead then and move into those Zen originals. Again, I feel like things that you've learned in Pinball M have found themselves into Zen Originals, and it's only been improving what's been happening with those. Again, that Knight Rider table is phenomenal. That hit me right in the nostalgia fields. Thank you for getting the music license on that. Oh, yeah. And that back glass, it was just like, yeah, that's the interior of the car. Love it. You're the video screen. You guys nailed that one so hard. It's amazing. Love it.
    55:45
    How is the R&D, though, between a wholly original Zendel license, no IP attached, versus an IP attached license?
    55:56
    How does that affect, bottom line, because I know that R&D might be longer on one than the other. Do they wind up kind of bouncing out at the end, or where is that in the scope of things? yeah I still think I mean licensed content does better you know but our originals like players love them so we always I think I told you I mean we always want to have them something going on and there was a we had a real drought of Zen originals for a while and we felt that licensed games do take more resources to create there's no question about that it's going to cost in some cases twice as much a lot of times it's just time because you're waiting for things to get approved and like in the case of Knight Rider, Xena and Battlestar that's a whole pack and then that team is working on how many other games they're making a lot of games and so sometimes you end up waiting and you go through extra approvals and you know just stuff so if we were just doing Xen Originals we could probably and Williams don take as long but it hard for us sometimes to source the machine We need to have the machine So but yeah all these we I think we've found a good balance of Zen originals, licensed originals, and then the Williams games, you know, although we're coming off a big Williams drought. I know that, but, you know, and I said more Williams next year. So we're kind of, I don't know.
    57:28
    It's a tough thing to manage. I think you guys, though, should take heart with your originals. Both me and Jared have noticed that there are a lot of elements from Zem tables, the fantasy pinball, that have now been finding themselves in real-world pinball. Yes.
    57:49
    Yeah, like Stern is looking at your playbook. like the the pop-up target in jaws um jaws yeah that's uh there's some there's some yeah it's well it's just even i'm thinking even with x-men just you know the idea of breaking a ramp with a hand coming down that is straight out of you know some of the things that that you guys have done where some physical thing you know alters the course of the ball uh yeah it's I would pat yourself on the back is what I'm saying. Back in the early days, one could say, oh, this layout looks very much like that layout. And so we were learning a lot from them. But it's true. We see them taking cues from us.
    58:36
    And look, technology in the real world is technology gets better and better, and you can do cool things. Like the gap between digital and physical, maybe it can be blurred more.
    58:47
    That's fun. That's really cool. I wonder if it's almost like the whole bit with how science fiction made people think of how to actually do it in real life. And is pinball effects in some way like the science fiction version of what we're seeing now in pinball? Because people, it's like you plant the seed. You see something, you experience something, you go, how would I do that mechanically in a game? And that's where we're seeing the flip around now. Well, I think – It's really interesting. To that point, Jared, I think that also with as many years as digital pinball has now been available – because when did Zen 1?
    59:29
    2007, pinball effects came out on Xbox Live. Right. So you've got individuals that grew up with that that are now in positions at actual pinball companies. They're designing them. Designing. So I think that's where that's coming from now. as opposed to back then there was that hard line of digital pinball is not real pinball so nobody would even glance at it you know I think the technology we've seen it with the advancements between the PX engine and Unreal Engine 4 just the realism that you can get now and I think that's making people sit up and take notice way more than they did in the past like you know imagine trying to do what you were doing with AtGames even six years ago, you wouldn't have been able to do that and get the realism and immersion that you're getting now. That's true.
    60:26
    It's definitely a thing. We finally learned a few things. I don't think you ever stop learning new things, from what I've seen.
    60:37
    Regarding licensing with Zan Originals and stuff, obviously recently we had the Balls of Glory pack pulled from FX3. We still have not seen Bethesda, the Aliens pack.
    60:51
    I think there's one other that I'm missing. Walking Dead. You had said early on that Portal and Walking Dead were probably not going to be coming over to Pinball FX. Then you later were like, hey, it might.
    61:03
    But specifically, people are definitely wondering Aliens. Is that still in the books as a possibility?
    61:14
    Yeah, I think it's on the table. Especially with Rondell being hit. I think Fox is – so Fox is integrated into Disney, and there were some challenges. And if you look – I mean, I think there's a public record about what happened with Archer and Disney and Fox and the whole relationship. And so, unfortunately, that pack kind of got caught up in things, again, that Zen had no control over. and so I don't know. Right now it's off the market.
    61:42
    Aliens, it's again in that Fox zone so I'm hopeful that we can bring it. We just haven't been given the green light just yet.
    61:51
    But it's not getting pulled off the market or anything like that. That's still solid and not at any risk. Bethesda, we need to circle around and get some things done. It was kind of a miss not to have...
    62:08
    Uh-oh. We got to freeze up. All out table available. Hold on. Go back, Mel. We completely lost you on that one.
    62:21
    Oh, no. We really lost him. No, you're right. He's back again. On Bethesda? Yeah, about Bethesda, yeah. I don't know why the... I wonder if my kids are streaming like a thousand different things.
    62:35
    just look at the quality of service settings on your router. You said you missed it. You were starting to talk about Aliens, and you said you missed something, and that's where it fuzzed out. Yeah. Oh, well, I would say we missed not having the Bethesda presence in Pinball FX with the hit of Fallout. Oh, yeah. Right? Sure. But we saw in FX3, like, the sales went – I mean, Bethesda Pinball has been selling great. So we definitely want to keep that going. I would say that that's in our interest to get that done there's a lot of things I can't say about certain aspects of this but we want to do it well when you get Fox back on the horn to deal with aliens we do have Alien Romulus now there's a new Predator movie in the books and we missed out on Prey there's a lot of content you guys can continue on that that would fit perfect in Pinball M just saying I firmly agree I also think that Bethesda has some good stuff that we could bring into Pinball M. Oh, Doom in Pinball M. There's a version right there.
    63:42
    I mean, it was already pretty full-on in just regular, the regular platform, but in, well. Yeah, I'm not going to say I'm surprised that that passed muster with the E10. That was back when Pinball FX was like E10, right? Yep, that would be knife-edge stuff right there. we always like to touch base and figure out where the balance is of you guys seeking out a license versus licensors seeking you out. Where's the scales tipping these days?
    64:11
    I'm inundated with requests, except the ones, maybe except for the ones that I told you were my dream ones, right? Well, yeah.
    64:19
    Some of those are also not like, you know, I don't think Sony's out there shopping around Fifth Element stuff right now.
    64:25
    Yeah. But I don't know. Yeah. I get, everybody's always talking about pinball or asking if we're signing licenses and if we can bring their stuff. Some of them are really interesting.
    64:40
    I want to keep it interesting as well. In economics, it seems to be good. But I don't ever go out and look for a license. I'll just put it that way. Okay.
    64:53
    Let's wrap up. Final topic being Williams Tables in general. first off is there an emulation cutoff point you guys have like are we talking you know nothing pre-1981 or is it really just like anything's on the books for you guys I think we don't have a cutoff and no it really comes down to what we have access to okay uh and kind of like jared i don't think you have like sitting out there in australia um how many pinball machines are like do you have a cactus canyon anywhere nearby oh maybe a remake um remake would be fine yeah it'll be okay i mean um i've been i've been trying so hard to get a cactus canyon into hungary uh or locate it there or figure out how to get one to our office i mean this is like how do we do it yeah it's it's such a shame that you just can't go to someone like Chicago Gaming and go, can we just have the 3D assets? Can we just start purely digital and just get them? Especially with all these ones that are coming out as remakes. Even Funhaus now has a... Like, Pedretti Gaming has a version 2 of that. And there's even a Whirlwind version 2 now out there with Pedretti. I think they're doing it. So surely they will have all of these assets because they wouldn't be able to make them from original molds. They would have had to redesign everything and do it from scratch. So it's like they've got to be out there somewhere. These digital assets have got to be there. You just, you know. Yeah. Well, sometimes people don't like to share. To give those over. Yeah. I'm not even at all surprised.
    66:36
    The challenge really is, I mean, we have a great relationship with the Budapest Pinball Museum. We actually support them with our charity pack, which is cool, right? So we're bringing funds into there and also funding into charity here in the States. But we borrow machines from them, and we need to find more machines. That's been a big problem. And then we got – like, next year we're going to have a healthy dose of Williams. We were able to get our hands on a lot of machines.
    67:07
    That's really good. So as far as titles that are remaining for the ones that people are most sought after, or even not, how many more tables do you think realistically remain for that Williams category in pinball effects? Is there an end point, or is it like, no, we'll keep going until people stop buying them? Yeah, we'll keep going. If people keep buying them the way that they have volumes one through seven at this point, Well, Volume 7 was a collection of individual releases that we put together, right? If they keep buying them at the rate and the pace that they did, we will keep making them. There's no question. And Volume 8 is coming still this year.
    67:50
    Nice. Yeah, because it's Earthshaker and Two Unknowns, which I'm sure by the time we release this or whatever, probably there's been a pinball bite that's given the hint as to what one of those is. Probably. I think we're announcing another one sometime in November. and then the third one will be revealed in the pinball bags, and then it'll ship. Yeah, right. Some of the Williams titles that have yet to be done, the back glass actually plays a prominent role in some of that gameplay. And, I mean, even if you go to Whirlwind, where they just have the little square lights that are on there, you guys wound up putting that underneath the DMD to make that work. But things like Brida Pinbot had it all up and down her leg. those are things that are required I shouldn't say required but they're on the back glass and are animated and such but then you have other games where it's much much more integrated I'm thinking like Scared Stiff or something like Cyclone where it has the little meter that rises and stuff like that does Zen have an idea of how they would approach that kind of table then should it be done probably I'll give you a generic answer as authentic as possible.
    69:10
    Do it the way it's supposed to be done. I mean, that's our mentality with all the Williams games is we are recreating history and we're making them for people who really love this thing and care about the details. So, you know, I think that we would only take on something if we could do it authentic and true to form. is there a particular uh williams title or pack that you hear uh that sells the most that you're like that's the most popular of our williams that we've got out there um so the the first williams pack is the best seller of all time for us for williams which is no surprise and then the individual the games the big the big hitters as i call them have all done fantastic. And we, while, you know, Indiana Jones is $14.99, it's sold tremendously well. And people seem to appreciate the work that was done and went into it to make that happen. And it carries the premium, you know, and it's been fine. So, but up and down the Williams line, it's been fantastic for us. And we will continue to do them as long as, as long as people want them so uh but i know people really uh like terminator and elvira and um judge dread and some of these that you know uh we need nba fast break and roller games oh because i can't not let that get announced yeah we were very close on nba fast break oh don't tell me that don't don't tease me like that, Mel?
    70:48
    If we got Indiana Jones done, I think... You can get anything done. Over the course of time, we should be able to get anything done.
    70:57
    It actually makes me wonder. It's a lot about timing. It's a lot about just people being interested in it at the right moment, or they're too busy with something else. I don't know. It makes me wonder. I remember when Indiana Jones came out, it was a really difficult decision to price it the way it was but it was inevitable given the costs associated with it now that you've got the data on it like are you actually going well you know there was a bit of um initial skepticism about it but the data doesn't lie people will actually invest the money if they see the value in it does that perhaps open up pathways for other licenses that may have been considered unobtainium before as a way of getting the table across the line.
    71:49
    Absolutely. And I think that there's the potential that we'd have one more game priced at Indiana Jones level because it requires this Schwarzenegger to get paid. Oh, yes. The governor.
    72:05
    I mean, it's just like the number is what it is. It's like you want to play ball? here it is this is the cost pay the man yes and look I mean like so you know you look at it and you're like well okay we're going to charge this much for Indiana Jones we're not going to make very much on it but does that mean that people will come into Pinball FX and maybe spend money everywhere else you know yeah is it like a lost leader I was going to say yeah so those are of course we have those conversations you know yeah that's very interesting Jared you got any last questions for Mel I don't think so I'm looking through the very long list of questions we've got I just want to take this time now just to thank everyone who's sending questions to us for Mel to answer because there's going to be some really good ones coming through so if you are one of those people who send questions in hopefully we've answered them for you in the session here so yeah I think that's probably I don't see anything else jumping out from the list, Chris. I guess I was going to say, have you got anything you want to talk about in general, Mel, that we haven't talked about here? Because it's always like we're grilling you with the 20 questions, but it's always like, you know, is there anything else you want to actually say in general about the platform or just stuff in general? I don't know, man. Yeah, we covered a lot of ground, I feel like, and I feel like you're probably pretty up to date as to what we're doing, what our plans are.
    73:41
    I'll just say it's been a crazy couple of years. And, you know, thanks to everybody for kind of bearing with us as we tried and failed at certain things. But, you know, I think the story is like don't overcomplicate and don't overthink things. So we're trying to go back to some simplicity and back to hopefully the way that everybody viewed Zen and thought about pinball effects in our pinball games from before. We still love it. We still are so much committed to this.
    74:17
    And the team, I don't know, it's just crazy how much passion goes into it still, even after all this time.
    74:25
    I guess that's my message as to where we are right now. Well, it certainly seems like there is going to be whether there already exists a way to play the game right now or this coming year, new ways to play the game. There's so many different avenues that are going to be out there for everybody to play and sample in. And I think that's the most important part is that reaching the audience however they can be reached and being there for them and giving them the product in a form that is excellent to play on. So keep that up. We love seeing it. I'm amazed that I keep on being excited by releases on AtGames when I'm like I literally already own this table why am I getting excited to play it this week and yet it's because of the form factor so I think the same thing can probably be said once it comes out on VR because there's a whole host of people that live and breathe by playing pinball in VR and that's going to be their golden ticket right there so I think this next year is going to be fantastic and we can't wait to see what Zen has in store for us. Cool. Thanks, guys. Let's keep working at it and making it as fun as we can in all the different ways to play. That's what it's all about. Thank you so much for joining us, Mel. As for myself and Jared, folks, we'll be back around next time talking about everything that Jared loves to talk about. Stuff and things. Until then, folks. Bye-bye.
    75:57
    See you later. Thank you.