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The Pinball Show Ep 148 BONUS: What To Make Of The Recent Haggis Pinball Update

Pinball Show Patreon Feed·podcast_episode·34m 34s·analyzed·Feb 27, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Hosts analyze Haggis Pinball's manufacturing crisis email, supply chain pivot, and financial recapitalization needs.

Summary

The Pinball Show hosts discuss Haggis Pinball's recent transparency email about manufacturing delays, supply chain issues, and the need for recapitalization. The hosts analyze what the email reveals about Haggis's operational challenges, speculate on potential solutions (angel investment, contract manufacturing), and debate the strategic implications of the company's public communication. Host Zach Sharpe, an exclusive Haggis dealer, also addresses criticism from customers regarding deposit handling and refund policies.

Key Claims

  • Haggis Pinball has been using 'just-in-time' manufacturing methodology with lean principles that relies on tightly coupled supply chain arrivals

    high confidence · Damien from Haggis Pinball email, discussed by hosts

  • Haggis plans to change manufacturing methodology away from just-in-time, but this transition will require further slowing production, recapitalization, and refocused procurement strategies

    high confidence · Haggis Pinball email content

  • 'Recapitalize' likely means Haggis needs new funding or investor money, not a traditional bank loan

    medium confidence · Host speculation based on dictionary definition and context

  • Haggis is spending deposit money for Fathom Revisited builds to keep cash flow going while customers wait for fulfillment

    medium confidence · Host Zach Sharpe inference from business cycle description

  • Fathom Revisited was supposed to be completed by end of 2023 and has not been

    high confidence · Hosts reference to initial promised timeline

  • Centaur Revisited has not yet started production

    high confidence · Hosts confirm Centaur not on production line yet

  • Zach Sharpe (Flipping Out Pinball) has committed to refunding non-refundable Haggis deposits if the company goes under

    high confidence · Zach Sharpe direct statement in episode

  • No other pinball distributor has publicly made a similar deposit guarantee for a manufacturer

    medium confidence · Zach Sharpe opinion/claim about industry practice

Notable Quotes

  • “if you are currently waiting for a game from Haggis, you are now going to be delayed even further than you are now. And they're still into an undetermined degree. They haven't given us a timeline.”

    Host (Dennis or co-host summarizing email) @ early in episode — Core message: delays are getting worse with no timeline

  • “they had to have known what the response was going to be the recapitalizing that word recapitalize in particular does that mean we need more money? that's what it feels like to me”

    Host @ mid-episode — Identifies 'recapitalize' as a hidden ask for investor funding

  • “If you lift the hood, Dennis, of a Fathom Revisited, it's a fucking mini Hobbit. It is loaded. The things are heavy. The details that they're putting in some of these things, like in the back box, the custom cut inlays, it's done with such high quality that I don't know how anybody could sustain that”

    Zach Sharpe @ mid-episode — Acknowledges Haggis's quality but questions sustainability of manufacturing model

  • “but does it make sense to do that? Maybe they have to, if they go a different direction, maybe they have to create products that aren't as nice.”

    Zach Sharpe @ mid-episode — Suggests Haggis may need to compromise on quality to improve efficiency

  • “the bottom line is it doesn't really, in a way, matter if his quality is better or he puts more in the games. The games aren't coming out. You're right, yeah. So that's not a success.”

    Co-host and Zach Sharpe @ mid-episode — Core tension: quality is irrelevant if products don't ship

  • “I would say plenty [of well-to-do people would invest]. There's this type of hobby that uh that gets well-to-do people in it... Look at the Abbas family. They saved Jersey Jack Pinball because they're hobbyists.”

    Zach Sharpe @ mid-episode — Suggests angel investor solution is viable given JJP precedent

  • “I'm very, when it comes to like man trying to fix problem kind of thing... They got to sell more product, right? But it seems counterintuitive to this messaging that they're sending out this communication.”

Entities

Haggis PinballcompanyDamien (Haggis)personZach SharpepersonDennispersonFathom RevisitedgameCentaur RevisitedgameFlipping Out PinballcompanyJersey Jack Pinball (JJP)companyAbbas Familyperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Haggis Pinball seeks 'recapitalization' indicating need for external funding or investor money beyond internal cash reserves

    high · Email uses term 'recapitalize'; hosts identify this as likely meaning need for investment funding

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Haggis abandoning just-in-time lean manufacturing model in favor of traditional parts stockpiling approach

    high · Haggis email explicitly states plan to transition away from just-in-time model due to supply chain fragility

  • ?

    product_concern: Haggis's high-quality manufacturing approach (custom inlays, heavy components, detail work) may be unsustainable without higher volume or lower costs

    medium · Zach Sharpe describes Fathom as 'mini Hobbit' loaded with details; hosts debate whether quality must be compromised for efficiency

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Haggis's Australian location creates compounding costs: expensive local labor, long import lead times, high shipping costs to primary US market

    high · Hosts extensively discuss how Australian location disadvantages Haggis vs US-based competitors; reference HomePen's decision to move manufacturing for labor arbitrage

  • ?

    product_launch: Fathom Revisited production severely behind (promised end-2023, still not complete); Centaur Revisited not yet started; further delays announced

    high · Hosts confirm Fathom missed 2023 deadline, Centaur hasn't begun, and new email signals even slower production during transition

Topics

Haggis Pinball manufacturing crisis and production delaysprimaryJust-in-time manufacturing methodology and supply chain vulnerabilityprimaryRecapitalization and potential angel investor solutionsprimaryFathom Revisited and Centaur Revisited production statusprimaryDealer/distributor obligations and deposit handlingprimaryGeographic location impact on manufacturing costs and supply chainsecondaryQuality vs. production efficiency tradeoffsecondaryContract manufacturing as solution (American Pinball, Pedretti)secondaryComparison to historical manufacturer crises (Dutch Pinball, JJP)secondaryCommunity sentiment and customer complaints about Haggissecondary

Sentiment

negative(-0.72)— Hosts express concern, frustration, and skepticism about Haggis's future viability. Zach Sharpe defends his business decision but shows exasperation at criticism. Both hosts sympathize with Damien's efforts but are pessimistic about the company's prospects without major intervention. Underlying tone is one of resignation that Haggis's location and manufacturing model may be fundamentally unviable.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.104

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. Thanks again for the ongoing support as a Pinball Show Club member. Enjoy this exclusive TPS content and make sure to visit the Pinball Show Club Discord to chat about the bonus material. Dennis, the time has come.
0:31
These people want exclusive content, and we're here to give it to them. Don't you think they would rather speculate about what we might be saying behind this paleo? What the hell? I hope those people are listening now. We did get quite a few additional of these club members, so welcome, everybody. I guess they really wanted to know what was said. This last week, Haggis Pinball, Damien in particular, emailed a lot of people with an update because people were asking about updates where in hell is everything you heard in the regular show
1:01
what we said are the question marks like the fathoms are supposed to be done they're not centaur is supposed to be on the line they're not what is this and I will preface this by saying that I'm associated with haggis in the way that I am a exclusive dealer through my company flipping out pinball I'll make that very clear we're exclusive dealer to haggis pinball so keep that in mind as you're listening to all of this I am not associated with Yes. I mean, it's not going to change anything, but just still, I need to put that out there.
1:32
So maybe we won't read the whole email because you said you did it on EGP and it was. I did. And it is very long. So I think maybe a couple of pieces like it may be good to go ahead. And I don't know if you want me to read it or if you want to read it. But do you have some of the pieces highlight? If not, I can whisk through some of this. I mean, I do. So I'd say the first thing to note is that they've indicated a lot of stuff about that they've been relying on a manufacturing methodology that's referred to as just in time.

Zach Sharpe @ mid-episode — Identifies contradiction in Haggis's public communication strategy

  • “if I was his angel investor, that would have been my two birds, one stone thing... You still Australia-based, Australia-designed. Manufacturing will be handled on one of the lines at American Pinball.”

    Co-host (Dennis?) @ mid-episode — Proposes contract manufacturing solution with American Pinball

  • “I even said I don't know when the hell you're going to get your game I said that very clear in our agreement you took that agreement like and I'm trying to go above and beyond what anybody else would do I'm still getting shit on”

    Zach Sharpe @ late episode — Expresses frustration at customer criticism despite extra protections offered

  • “Every distributor has to, every company in general, not just Pinball, has to make these deals that come with some risk. Now, the difference being is I'm taking the risk. I'm truly taking the risk because if they do go under, flipping out pinball is going to lose a lot of money, Dennis, a substantial amount of money.”

    Zach Sharpe @ late episode — Defends business decision to partner with Haggis and explain financial exposure

    • American Pinball
    company
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Chicago Gaming Company (CGC)company
    Multimorphiccompany
    The Pinball Showorganization
    Pinball Show Cluborganization
    Dutch Pinballcompany
    CoinTakercompany
    Pedretticompany
    Pinball Brotherscompany
    HomePencompany
    Mike (HomePen owner)person
    ~

    sentiment_shift: Haggis's transparency email, intended to clarify situation, likely damaged customer confidence by revealing financial stress and indefinite delays

    high · Hosts note that transparency raises 'more red flags than would have been raised had they been a little less transparent'; email reveals need for angel investor

  • ?

    industry_signal: Zach Sharpe's deposit guarantee to customers is unusual; most distributors operate on standard non-refundable terms; signals high-risk Haggis partnership

    high · Zach states no other distributor has made similar public guarantee; comparison to CoinTaker's escrow approach with Dutch Pinball

  • ?

    business_signal: Hosts infer Haggis is spending Centaur deposits on Fathom production to maintain cash flow; vicious cycle of delayed revenue

    medium · Host describes 'vicious cycle' where deposit money for next game spent finishing previous game

  • ?

    community_signal: Zach Sharpe reports being blamed/criticized by customers despite going above-and-beyond with deposit protections; community divided on fault

    medium · Zach describes being 'lumped into being at fault' and 'still getting shit on' despite extra protections; customer confusion about who holds deposits

  • ?

    operational_signal: Haggis struggles to retain skilled manufacturing labor in Australia; labor costs and availability are structural disadvantage

    medium · Hosts discuss Australian labor market difficulty; reference to HomePen's similar challenge; speculation about staffing pressures

  • ?

    industry_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball rescue by Abbas family cited as model for angel investor intervention; hosts debate likelihood of similar scenario for Haggis

    high · Extensive discussion of JJP precedent; speculation that similar investors exist in pinball hobby but would require Damien to relinquish control

  • $

    market_signal: Stern, Spooky, JJP, Multimorphic all managing supply chain better than Haggis; no longer citing pandemic as excuse; Haggis uniquely transparent about struggles

    high · Hosts note only Haggis and CGC still visibly struggling; Stern recovered; others meeting timelines

    • 2:04
    Yes. Using lean principles. Yes. And while so, Damien in the email notes that they they have and still actually feel that that's the optimum strategy to use. But the problem is that they have had this supply chain issue because everything is really tightly coupled together. And obviously, when they're doing just in time, everything has to arrive just in time or else they can't actually finish a build. And so these interruptions to the supply chain keep having this effect that keeps their output of games really low.
    2:37
    And that's why they have such a backlog. That was noted. So because of these just ongoing issues that have plagued their Fathom Revisited production, in the process of going to Centaur Revisited building, they want to go ahead and change the manufacturing methodology so that it's not so reliant on these things arriving just in time. But to do the transition, they note they need to further slow down production, recapitalize, which is a word a lot of people have focused on, and they have to refocus their procurement strategies and partner offerings.
    3:11
    So long story short, per the email, if you are currently waiting for a game from Haggis, you are now going to be delayed even further than you are now. And they're still into an undetermined degree. They haven't given us a timeline. And they're saying they're still building. They're still manufacturing. Games are still being shipped. Games are still being boxed. All of that is still true. It's just it's going to be even slower than it already has been. So that's the highlights that I had from the email.
    3:41
    Yeah. Was there any elements you think I missed? I think you pretty much covered. Because there were like two or three paragraphs that were just kind of like, you know, we're really innovative. We started really small. We're really dedicated. I took out the fluff. That's right. And the other transparency I will put in there, I do appreciate the transparency and maybe not to the degree of transparency because, boy, they just really said it, but they put it all on the table there. As a hobbyist, I love seeing an email like this.
    4:14
    But the email raises more red flags than would have been raised had they been a little less transparent. That's the problem that I have. I'm not saying don't be transparent. Be transparent. but this comes with some negatives putting it in this way they had to have known what the response was going to be the recapitalizing that word recapitalize in particular does that mean we need more money? that's what it feels like to me when I was recording a Collected Gamers podcast
    4:46
    I looked up recapitalize and recapitalization and basically yeah it's sort of like refinancing or otherwise finding some sort of funding or a shift in the funding, all of that kind of came into play. So the way I interpret it is they don't have enough money available to do the manufacturing methodology change, at least not smoothly. So I wondered if part of the reason to send out such an open letter. That's what I wondered. Why do that? If you need more money, this is going to be anti-
    5:18
    People are going to want to back out now. If they don't, let's say, let's say Damien, probably unlike you, Zach has friends. So let's say that he reached out to all of his friends, friends with money, and they were like, no, can't help you, won't help you, whatever. And this is a maybe we can find an angel investor if we just put all our cards out on the table in this email and basically say we really need help. We're still around. We're still producing. But and we've learned we've learned our lesson.
    5:49
    Like, it's weird for me to say learned our lesson because the email indicates that he still thinks just-in-time lean principles is the optimum method. Well, but they also talk about kind of transitioning something different. Yeah, but what, I mean, so the only thing I can, and this is where my lack of manufacturing experience comes into play and I don't know. To me, the only thing to transition into is the more traditional model where you start stockpiling parts and then you do your build. But if you don't have money.
    6:20
    And that's where, how do you make the shift without another investor or a loan? This is all contingent upon staffing, too. I can only imagine. I've talked to individuals in Australia before. I've talked to Damien before. The staffing is more. It's pretty difficult in areas there similar to here. But you've got to pay people more, getting people in there. This is, like you said, pinball is hard. Everybody says that.
    6:51
    But truly, to staff and to equip people to put these things together, and then they can just turn around and somebody else can hire them for 50 cents more, and they're doing less specified work. It's tough. Well, then that is where I believe, if I remember from some of the older interviews, Mike with the owner of HomePen. Why did he start building in China? He considers a branded. He really promoted himself as an Australian company, and it's like, okay, well, an Australian owns it. But he had noted it was the labor market and just how much cheaper Chinese labor was versus Australian labor that really motivated him to try and establish in mainland China.
    7:30
    And then, of course, long story short, that kind of fell apart, and he moved over to Taiwan at this point to try and achieve that. My issue hasn't been for for Haggis. And I talked a bit about this on EGP that they should consider trying to do the build in a less expensive labor market. I think the problem that they have. Well, that could be an example pointed out that since they're in Australia and as Damien notes in his email, it's like they are the only one trying to do all of this. currently, building in the U.S. would have solved so many problems for them, not the
    8:04
    least of which is I think that's where most of their customers are. And unlike Haggis, excuse me, Haggis, unlike HomePen, remember HomePen opened with Thunderbirds, which was a nothing license to the Americans, but it wasn't a license that was known well in Australia and known well in Europe. Things like Fathom are darlings of America because Williams, Bally Williams was based here. Absolutely. We had most of those games. And so I think that because he in Australia you noted the labor side of it but I think it also any parts he needs to import or is he having to build things because he can easily import parts not to mention the costs associated with shipping
    8:44
    which on top of the already, in my opinion, for Centaur in particular, very expensive price point has limited their ability to sell. They would have been able to, just on the shipping charges alone, sold more Centaurs had they been based in America to build them. I think that. I might be wrong, but I think that. No, I think you're right. So he started this in a place that was not ideal. And that's all now I feel coming back and biting him because I think the thought was fine. I mean, he had a way.
    9:14
    He had a way to make it work. But when you've spent down all your deposit money and you can't get the fathoms out fast enough to get the full purchase money in to then invest towards your next game, after a while, the margins get tight. You start spending deposit money you thought was going to be used on Centaur builds to finish up Fathom builds in a desperate, vicious cycle to try and get full purchase pricing in so you have more money to work with. And I think this letter may be too late.
    9:46
    And that, again, is why maybe the letter happened is it's like we need an angel investor. That's what people are feeling in this when you read this letter. but who where i would struggle and this isn't their fault this is just the nature of the market and where where pinball is right now who would want to buy in on this well that's where i think uh whether it's a good decision or not i i would say plenty i there are this this is a type of hobby we've seen it year after year decade after decade this is a type of hobby that uh that gets
    10:19
    well-to-do people in it. These well-to-do people come from backgrounds that are in management, that are in production manufacturing, that are in leadership roles. And look at, it's not a direct comparison, look at the Abbas family. They saved Jersey Jack Pinball because they're hobbyists. They saved that company. Now, it's fully churning now, but I think there's enough well-to-do people that if this is a money situation,
    10:53
    I think it wouldn't take many. I think maybe it'll only take one or two people that are like, you know what? I've got more money than I'm going to be able to spend in my lifetime, and I would bet that this money situation might not be that deep. To be a part of a brand and be a part of an actual, I think, again, I'm not saying it's a good idea or a bad idea. I think there's plenty of people that would just inquire like, what are we talking about here? You know, like, what does this mean?
    11:24
    What would help? Does that mean some ownership? Like, you know, what would that look like? I might take a swing on things. You know, I'm thinking the multimillionaires, billionaires out there that are in this hobby. There's a lot of people in this hobby. Not that Haggis would even want that. I don't know. but if I'm reading this correctly I think it would be dumb not to be open to anything but I don't know I actually agree with you but there was a line and I didn't specify the line
    11:56
    that I see drawn here where we bring up what happened with JJP and stuff see there's already this outlined methodology manufacturing change up that Damien's already picked I see what you're saying And I do agree it actually, even in this market, would be viable, but not with Damon still being in control. And that's what happened with JJP. Jack doesn't run that. Abbott's family is in full control. And it's my understanding. I believe that to be true.
    12:26
    And if you want someone to bail out Haggis, regardless of the dollar amount that would actually be, I'm sure it's a much smaller number, I would think at least, than what had to happen with JJP. But let's say, for example, I was that millionaire that you wanted. I'm looking. I'm like, you know what? I love pinball. I've got plenty of angel investor money, and it doesn't really matter. They've got all the startup stuff done. I can come in and just – I'm not really – it's not to the degree where how do billionaires become millionaires buying pinball companies sort of thing. I'm not too worried about my future. Let's just say that that's me.
    12:57
    Even with all of that, there is no way, and this may just be me, that I would, after seeing what has just happened, saying, sure, here's your money. go ahead and do your new strategy. It would be, sure, thank you so much. I'll keep you on as an advisor. We're moving to America. That's step number one, and you're under my control now, and we're doing things my way because I'm a winner, and that's why I'm rich. I could see that happening. But that is a tough pill to swallow for someone whose blood, sweat equity,
    13:29
    and everything else went into a company. I mean, if it's the only way to save it, maybe that would be the option. that would be chosen? I don't know. Especially so much of this email at the start that I did not read in the quick highlights was this real, like leaning heavily into this sort of Australian pride, you know, getting this started in a garage in Australia and being the only manufacturer in Australia, building actual pinball machines. Like it's a lot, especially if a lot of people are like, no, you're going to move production to America. You're going to move production to
    13:59
    China. You're going to do something. It's not going to be Australian the way you want it to be anymore because the easiest way to fix it is to not be out in the middle of nowhere and with an expensive labor pool. I just don't know. The tough part for me being behind the scenes and having a relationship with Damien and the team over there is – and I could be wrong. I could suck at interpreting and reading people. I'd like to think my previous life as a psychologist helps equip me with some good
    14:31
    functional abilities to do personality assessment stuff but I could have really fucked this up. Maybe they're just good actors. It's actually because I've met a lot of dingbats in this fucking industry. Just complete idiots. Knuckleheads that are over their head. They don't know what the fuck they're doing. Damien is a he's a, oh god, it sucks because he's a pretty genuine dude. Like if he's implying
    15:01
    that the company is having issues and troubles as I'm reading them and I'm being very honest I'm reading them just as you are he ain't trying to dupe anybody he's being transparent to a fault here and he's a genuine guy I don't think that he has so much pride in him that he wouldn't adapt or do whatever he needs to do He hustles. He works his ass off.
    15:31
    And he took a big bite, a big swing at this idea of starting this company. And another thing that's tough to see is, here we go again, of not reinforcing what many people want when it comes to how much is put into a product. I've said before, even as a dealer, I've even told Damien and the team, You guys are putting a lot into these games. If you lift the hood, Dennis, of a Fathom Revisited, it's a fucking mini Hobbit.
    16:04
    It is loaded. The things are heavy. The details that they're putting in some of these things, like in the back box, the custom cut inlays, it's done with such high quality that I don't know how anybody could sustain that, especially in a market nowadays where people are more hesitant to spend that, even if you're getting the quality and it matches the price more so than something watered down cheaper and even worse quality.
    16:35
    That's the tough part here because everybody wants this high quality stuff. Like this shit is, he's using super nice stuff to the point that probably overdoing detail based stuff, but that's what he wanted to bring to the market. but does it make sense to do that? Maybe they have to, if they go a different direction, maybe they have to create products that aren't as nice. I mean, it could happen. Because it takes longer. If you're having that more complex, sure, the quality is higher,
    17:07
    but that means assembly is going to be even more difficult It just the way it is People say look at the leader The Stern Pros sell so well They know what they doing in manufacturing but the product itself, you know, they're easier to build. Sure, but, I mean, the bottom line is it doesn't really, in a way, matter if his quality is better or he puts more in the games. The games aren't coming out. You're right, yeah.
    17:38
    So that's not a success. It's almost like, yeah, you've seen the end product, and sure, that's great, but how do we get there? How do we produce that? They clearly not mastered the ability to get there in an efficient manner. And we've seen other companies struggle like this. And I do sympathize with his citation of the pandemic. The thing is, everyone suffered on the supply chain issues, Stern more notably than anyone else, simply because they were the market leader on supply chain issues related to the pandemic. No one else is citing this anymore.
    18:10
    And it may still be, truthfully, the problem they have at Haggis, but is that because they're in Australia? I don't know, but it's a problem that we're not hearing out of Spooky, and we're not hearing it out of JJP, and we're sure as hell not hearing it out of Stern. But you said they're not citing it. I would argue that I don't think any company is going to be this transparent either, though. If they were experiencing it, i.e., like an American pinball, just as an example. I don't know. Just an example. Are they going to come out? Is Dave Fixer going to come out and be this transparent? Again, that's a question.
    18:41
    I'm not making a statement. I'm just asking. Right. But in this scenario, we've got to look at facts. Other than the slowness of getting out Pulp Fiction, who else seems like they're just not producing besides Haggis? It only was CGC and Haggis. Multimorphic was struggling there for a while. no no they at least what they claimed was they chose to hold off on doing the the future build because they first they had to finish up the weird owls that they had all the orders for and they were really transparent about the timelines on that remember they were like a year behind though
    19:15
    they were like saying yeah but that was because of how many sales they and those sales happened during the pandemic so that was impacted but they were slow they yeah it took a long time to get a product that's what i'm saying but the princess bride remember that was they decided to re-engineer of those 3D printed parts that everyone was complaining about on Pennside. And so they didn't release. They were ready to release and they didn't. So according to them, like they weren't behind on like final resistance builds. Not behind. No. But launch, purchase, fulfillment.
    19:45
    The thing is, they give a timeline that when you're going to get your game and they said it would be like plus or minus six or well, plus, let's be fair, not minus six months. And they were still getting those games out with like they met those deadlines on the weird out because they offered the non-refundable deposits as a refund if they missed it by over six months of the estimate so they were always within six months of the estimate haggis is not no argument there yeah which is why cgc while they might not know a lot about how to build things timely no better than to promise any deadlines so that's the problem you he i mean
    20:21
    some it's a box they built they built themselves in this box that fathom was going to be done by the end of 2023 and here we are and centaur's not started and who's going to give him more money now so you have to ask for an angel investor possibly unless he's got actual more reserves and this can be like he might have the money to do this transition his email kind of suggests that he does but they have to go even slower while they pivot yeah from an already really slow schedule but for that word recapitalize which to me i mean who's going to give him a loan it it has to be
    20:55
    like an investor type, right? It's not like a bank loan. The tough part for me when I hear that, I hear, so I personalize it. I'm very, when it comes to like man trying to fix problem kind of thing. Because mine, I'm like, well, what can I do? What am I supposed to do? I got to sell more product, right? They got to sell more product, right? But it seems counterintuitive to this messaging that they're sending out this communication. When they do this, it's like, well, shit. It sure is a hell of a lot tougher now to sell product.
    21:29
    If you're needing money, you're putting out a message there that is going to essentially stop any products being sold. Sure. I can't sell any products right now. Right. Nor do I feel great about selling products right now. To be fair, they're not selling more Centaurs at this point. Not enough that would make a difference. Sure. They had the surge. They had the orders in. And here's the thing. They can't come out with eight ball deluxe or whatever, revisited and take deposits because then that's going to wreak a Ponzi scheme.
    21:59
    Zidware. Yeah, but I can't sell any more products now. No, no. That's where recapitalization, which, again, sort of like and the the definition, the Oxford definition of recapitalize is to provide a business with more capital, especially by replacing debt with stock. So it has to be finding some other mechanism to bring in more capital. Why wouldn't a company like American Pinball?
    22:30
    Why couldn't they be a match here? In what way? Bringing the products to manufacture over in the States. If I was his angel investor, that would have been my two birds, one stone thing. It seems like American Pinball isn't selling enough games from my limited outside perspective. And I see Haggis is having a hell of a time building games. So I would have said, you still Australia-based, Australia-designed. Manufacturing will be handled on one of the lines at American Pinball. Let's make a deal, get their line busy, and hopefully solve that problem.
    23:02
    And then they worry about the supply chain stuff of getting all that. That would have been my solution to it. Yeah. And if American Pinball said no or their price was too high, find some other contract manufacturer. Yeah. But, yeah. No, that's what I would do. Because then the games, most of them, or you can even do it like halfsies. Not truly halfsies, but split it. Australia, like Haggis proper could build the games for the Australia clients. American Pinball builds the bulk of the volume, which goes to the U.S. Yeah.
    23:33
    I could see that. Or maybe reach out to like a Pedretti. They seem to be figuring out how to build games. The problem is, unless there's more money that comes in, how can you afford a contract with American Pinball or Pedretti at this stage? You have to pay them. Remember, this is what happened with Dutch Pinball and Aura. Here's my take on that. I don't know on Pedretti. I know basically nothing about that and whatever they're doing with Pinball Brothers. American Pinball, I can't, pun intended, fathom Ametron dumping more money into that company to buy something.
    24:11
    Hey, let's buy more pinball. We'll do our own remakes. It's like, hey, this works so well. Let's buy another pinball company that's having trouble. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, at the end of the day, I don't know where we go from here. I can tell you as a distributor, it's not been easy on us just because lack of information and faulty information presented out there has put us in a precarious situation. It sucks that when we recorded our last episode, then Damien came out with a statement, and I was reading stuff on social media saying like lumping me into being at fault for something, like flipping out.
    24:49
    I don't understand how that would make sense. It doesn't, but to boneheads it does. I mean, so you, as I recall. Truth doesn't matter. You, as I recall, had indicated to shore up confidence in people making deposits for Centaur, said that if the company goes under, you will refund the non-refundable deposits. Is that correct? Yes. And I thought that that was a nice, I thought it was a pretty good gesture. Right. And Haggis has not gone under. They say they're still building the game.
    25:21
    So if people want refunds now, that is not the same as what you indicated. There has been some growing pressure that says for, number one, they were questioning where's the deposits, why would Flippin' Out give the deposit money to the manufacturers? So that would say, like, if I can wake up people, like, every manufacturer does that. JJP does that. Like, every manufacturer does that. So of course if you pay for a deposit I have to pay for a deposit of the order I put in so the money goes there Now they like well do you have the money or does Haggis have the money Me as in flipping out pinball I don know how to answer that because I have said
    26:02
    I think they – based off of – the deposit you charged was the exact amount that Haggis requires of you for each game, right? Yes. Okay. So in which case, the answer is Haggis has your deposit. All I'm doing is saying I will spend my being flipping outs, own money to make you whole if Haggis goes under and you don't get the game. Sure, or one could argue that I have their money. I'm choosing to send our own flipping out money to Haggis. Thus, Haggis has flipping out's deposit money.
    26:34
    It's almost a difference without a distinction, but unless the money is actually held special like an escrow, I don't tend to think of it that way because honestly, it's their money that went to Haggis. Your intervention is only if there's a failure. Yeah, and then, you know, so when I hear things like – because to my knowledge, there's no other distributor that has openly said that about a company. Hey, if they go under, I'll give you money. I thought that was a gesture, a good gesture I was making. But then I've heard things like, how dare he keep your money.
    27:08
    If you want a refund, you should get – these things have changed now, and you should be awarded your refund. And I'm like, wait, what? I don't like you said earlier I don't owe you like I've made terms very clear I even said I don't know when the hell you're going to get your game I said that very clear in our agreement you took that agreement like and I'm trying to go above and beyond what anybody else would do I'm still getting shit on like that sucks so that's been tough that's been really tough that's okay well I yeah I see where that would be
    27:40
    would be a struggle and this is again where I would assume it gets back to how people don't understand like non-refundable is non-refundable in normal circumstances they're adults they know what they're getting themselves into this was a small startup there was a chance i mean people take these chances and then they get upset when they get scared and i do and i understand i do understand that they felt more confident then but that wasn't the arrangement wasn't i'll give you your deposit your non-refundable deposit back if you get scared it was if haggis goes away and you don't get the game you deposited you will get your deposit and
    28:12
    To go off that, the other things I've heard is like, what's that tell you about flipping out if they go into bed with this company? And to that, I want to be like, guys, look, in business, there are calculated risks. We all make them. All we can do is support our customer base. And we feel like we're happy with the agreement that we have with Haggis Pinball. I like the products. We're proud to present these products and sell these products. and we've got you supported as well.
    28:43
    Saying why would we make an agreement with Haggis Pinball in retrospect here, I just think it's a shitty thing to do because every distributor has to, every company in general, not just Pinball, has to make these deals that come with some risk. Now, the difference being is I'm taking the risk. I'm truly taking the risk because if they do go under, flipping out pinball is going to lose a lot of money, Dennis, a substantial amount of money.
    29:16
    Now, is it an amount of money that is going to end us? No, it won't. And that's part of us running the company we run and the calculated risk that we feel comfortable taking up to a certain point. And that's not just with Haggis. That's with Stern. That's with Barrels. That's with J.J. That's running a good business versus a bad one. but it just, and maybe that's just me whining and crying, but it sucks being in that position, doing all of the right things more so than any of your other peers and still getting the ass end of all of it.
    29:47
    It's like, damn, it just makes you want to be like, well, no, fuck it. I'll just do the terms that we agreed upon. I'll keep my money and you lose yours. Yeah. This somewhat reminds me of coin taker had to do something like this with Dutch pinball or chose to try and share up. I think they lost some money with Zidware. They probably did now. Now, with Dutch, what ended up happening after the whole Aura thing fell apart and they started selling games again, no one was, by and large, willing to trust Dutch a second time. So Cointaker did, I think, did some sort of – I think they referred to it as escrow.
    30:19
    I don't know if they actually set it up as escrow because I think people may have had to – I think Cointaker may have required the entire game be prepaid. And they held the money until Dutch said that the game was being shipped, and then the full payment amount was transferred over. Now, you still had to trust Dutch to actually put it on the boat, which they did. And so that was a mechanism that ended up coming out of when the whole loss with the first round with the early – that wasn't a round for the early achievers. That was afterwards. And so as a way to try and build confidence, right, to play it really safe because everyone knew they were holding on by a thread as a manufacturer.
    30:53
    But, I mean, in this instance, I get where I would be very uncomfortable as well, you know, having a deposit in on a game and seeing a letter like this, which is where you could ask yourself if it was a smart thing to do. But that doesn't change the terms that I would have known had I bought one from you that were being offered. That was the company still says they have every intention to build these games. You have no other information. They haven't gone away.
    31:23
    So you're stuck waiting just like you were already stuck waiting. You're just now more scared than you were, which sucks. But, I mean, I get the wish. Like, wouldn't it be great if you could just refund everyone who's scared's deposit? And you know what? You could if Haggis wants to do that. Sure. And send you the money back. And we've seen instances where I remember when Highway Pendleton started to fall apart. And then some people got refunded by Highway. It was really haphazard.
    31:54
    And some people got their deposits back direct, and others did things to get their money back, and others were left holding the bag. And when bankruptcy or the equivalent of U.K. bankruptcy happened, they didn't get paid or didn't get paid much. So it's tough. It's tough. I guess you could buy Haggis. Yeah, well, I don't think I'm in the position to be buying or starting any pinball company right now. And we go back to those calculated risks.
    32:24
    I'm not so sure that I would invest money right now personally because I don't have much. But to invest that in a manufacturing company, it's just not my specialty. And what I'll say before we end this exclusive content, and I'm trying to be as transparent as possible. These people deserve it, right, Dennis? They're club members. We like transparency. is that life is full of calculated risks, as too is business. I can say in the position we're in now, who knows where this is going to go with Haggis,
    32:56
    that I'm happy with the calculated risks that I took with Haggis Pinball. I hope that they can figure it out with Centaurs because the Fathom that I have is badass. It's an awesome product, and I'm assuming Centaur will be the same. And I'm also happy and I'm proud that we've positioned our company in a way that can still conduct business in the most respectable and supportive way that we can support people in situations like this if they're weary about a new company or a new product or something.
    33:36
    And at the end of the day, it's a calculated risk. I don't say it's a bad thing that we did or a good thing that we did. We'll see how it works out, but I would have done it again as I did with the calculator risk of going in with barrels or when we went in. It's just part of the company. I think the reflection of who we are is that we're able to manage our company in a way to support you and for you not to take the hit as one of our customers.
    34:06
    Rather, we take that hit for you. I think that should speak louder than anything else. And if it doesn't, then frankly, piss off. I don't care. How about that? That's my being transparent, Dennis. Okay. Come on, Haggis. Figure it out. That's it. We're done. I don't want to lose money, Dennis. We're done. Bye-bye. You can press stop now. Yes. Turn the tape over. Yes.