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Is This Zen After Dark (Pinball M)?

BlahCade Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·58m 33s·analyzed·Jul 23, 2023
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Zen launches Pinball M mature platform with horror focus; hosts speculate on licensing strategy and ecosystem implications.

Summary

Chris Freebus and Jared Morgan discuss the surprise soft launch of Zen Pinball M, a new mature-rated pinball platform on Steam featuring horror-themed tables. They analyze the Wrath of the Elder Gods Director's Cut with enhanced gore effects and speculate on Zen's strategy: using Pinball M as a testing ground for mature content, licensing opportunities, and new platform features like leagues. They debate potential future tables (Elvira, Doom, Alien, Friday the 13th) and explore how Zen might manage cross-ownership between Pinball M and the main Pinball FX platform across multiple console ecosystems.

Key Claims

  • Pinball M is a separate app on Steam launching in 2025, distinct from Pinball FX core platform

    high confidence · Chris notes Pinball M has its own Steam store listing as 'Coming Soon,' indicating likely 2025 launch

  • Console rating restrictions require separation of mature DLC from core games, necessitating Pinball M as a distinct product

    high confidence · Chris explains that console platforms don't allow mature DLC attached to core rated games; Hasbro may not want 'trolls right next to a gory game'

  • Wrath of the Elder Gods Director's Cut includes enhanced gore: blood trails on ramps, bloody handprints, eyeball multiball targets, more menacing tentacle effects

    high confidence · Chris and Jared analyze comparative images showing new blood effects, splatter graphics, and enhanced visual menace

  • Pinball M likely functions as a market test and licensing showcase for potential horror IP partners

    medium confidence · Jared notes Zen used Epic Games early access to onboard licensors; soft launch of Pinball M suggests similar strategy to attract mature content partners

  • Zen is reportedly considering doing something collaborative with Spooky Pinball given shared horror aesthetic

    low confidence · Chris mentions 'we keep on throwing this rumor' about Zen and Spooky partnership; speculates Spooky tables could fit in Pinball M

  • Pinball M features new menu options including 'Leagues,' 'Campaign,' 'Table Masteries,' and mysterious 'Volt' button indicating feature testing

    high confidence · Screenshot analysis shows novel UI elements; Chris notes Zen has history of testing features in separate platforms before rolling to main product

  • Music and call-outs in Wrath of the Elder Gods are mismatched to horror theme and likely to be changed in Director's Cut

    medium confidence · Both hosts strongly criticize current jovial music/call-outs as inappropriate for horror tone; Chris says he'd 'rebuy if music was different'

  • Zen officially acknowledged Pinball M announcement was premature and is preparing public disclosure after Discord discussion

Notable Quotes

  • “It's a whole new platform by the looks of it. It's a separate app for other things as well.”

    Jared Morgan @ ~14:30 — Confirms Pinball M is a distinct product separate from Pinball FX, not just DLC or an update

  • “Please, please, please, please change the music. I would rebuy it if the music was different, for sure.”

    Jared Morgan @ ~18:00 — Expresses strong criticism of Wrath of the Elder Gods' tonal mismatch; suggests horror tone requires different audio design

  • “Mel was very adamant about the fact that Pinball FX is the platform, the core platform. Everything goes into it. Yeah. So what's this?”

    Chris Freebus @ ~20:15 — Highlights the strategic tension: Zen previously claimed FX was the unified platform, yet now launches Pinball M separately

  • “So it's pretty reasonable to assume that soft-launching now was to show licensors—potential licensors—that, hey, we've got a platform for you. Come and join us.”

    Chris Freebus @ ~27:00 — Articulates hypothesis that Pinball M's soft launch is a licensing outreach tool, mirroring Zen's Epic Games strategy

  • “A library of brand new, never-before-seen tables filled with fear and carnage.”

    Chris Freebus (reading Steam descriptor) @ ~15:00 — Indicates Pinball M will feature entirely new original tables in addition to Director's Cuts, not just ported existing titles

  • “If you own Pinball M, you'll have access to all of your content that you owned in Pinball FX, and you can just use Pinball M as your platform launcher.”

    Chris Freebus @ ~21:00 — Speculates on cross-ownership and unified launcher model; highlights unresolved technical and business questions

  • “I think at least stateside here, people are much more comfortable with violence than they are with sex.”

    Chris Freebus @ ~35:00 — Contextualizes why Zen might choose horror/gore over sexual content as the M-rated differentiator

Entities

Zen Pinball / Zen StudioscompanyChris Freebus (Shut Your Trap)personJared MorganpersonPinball MproductWrath of the Elder GodsgamePinball FXproductMelpersonSpooky PinballcompanyB-PAC FestivaleventBack to the Arcadeorganization

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Unresolved cross-ownership and entitlement strategy between Pinball M and Pinball FX creates significant unanswered questions about platform consolidation, launcher functionality, and DLC portability

    high · Chris raises 'really big unanswered question' about how Zen will manage cross-ownership across console platforms; Mel acknowledged this as topic for upcoming public disclosure

  • ?

    community_signal: Zen representative Mel actively engaged with Pinball FX Discord community after Pinball M soft launch went live, acknowledging unintended early announcement and committing to official disclosure

    high · Chris reports Mel 'officially came into the Pinball FX Discord and comment about it' and is 'preparing something right now to talk about it and announce it more widely'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Wrath of the Elder Gods suffers from severe tonal misalignment: jovial music and light-hearted call-outs contradict horror theme; Director's Cut must address this

    high · Both hosts express strong frustration; Jared states he would 'rebuy if music was different'; Chris agrees music must change for horror tone to work

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball M represents Zen's strategic shift toward platform fragmentation and content segmentation by rating, contrasting with prior unified Pinball FX vision and enabling targeted licensing for IP requiring mature ratings

    medium · Hosts compare Pinball M to prior failed Pinball Arcade After Dark attempt; theorize separate platform as console rating workaround and licensing/feature testbed; note Mel's prior unified platform messaging

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.176

0:00
blockade pinball podcast this is the blockade pinball podcast i'm your host chris freebus aka shut your trap joining me as always halfway across the world it's jared morgan hey everyone How's it going?
0:24
Alrighty. After our exceedingly long last video. Which people seem to love. Do you think so? We haven't had anything. Yeah, we haven't had anyone say, oh, it was too long. They said they did like the chapters, though, Chris. Yeah, I hate making chapters, but I had to for that one.
0:43
And it was really good. So, yes. All right. I'll let it go. So that was a mouthful to get through for sure.
0:55
Truth be told, we should have broken it up into two podcasts. No. Go long. Go long, go hard. Go long. So if you follow Jared's Instagram page, you'll know that he's been slapping paint on a cabinet. A well-planked cabinet, by the way. Oh, it's more planked than the planks on a boat. So I'm out of curiosity because Jared's winging it. He's creating his own templates there to do the painting based off of some photos and such.
1:29
I'm just freehanding it. Yeah, freehanding it. So I'm curious, why not slap Bondo on or wood filler and fill the planking and then sand it and paint over? uh because the the thing about these cabinets is the the planking and also the um the gouged cabinet that has been made by the good folk in africa that is in africa um where this machine was originally located um kind of speaks to the patina of the machine so it has a history to it and planking is one thing, but I actually think let it ride.

high confidence · Chris reports Mel from Zen came into Pinball FX Discord to comment about soft launch and say announcement is being prepared

“This thing is a massive market test is what it is.”

Jared Morgan @ ~36:00 — Summarizes Pinball M's strategic purpose as a controlled experiment in mature content demand and platform economics

Pinball Arcade After Dark
product
Hasbrocompany
Epic Gamescompany
Steamcompany
Elvira and the Party Monsters / Scared Stiffgame

licensing_signal: Pinball M's architecture appears designed to accommodate mature IP that cannot fit into main Pinball FX due to console rating restrictions, suggesting Zen is actively onboarding horror/mature licensors

medium · Chris notes console platforms prohibit mature DLC on core games; Jared parallels this to Zen's prior Epic Games early access strategy as licensing recruitment tool

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball M functions as explicit market test of demand for mature/horror content in digital pinball and appetite for separate platform economics

    medium · Jared explicitly states 'this thing is a massive market test'; Chris references testing features and licensing appetite before broader platform rollout

  • ?

    community_signal: Potential collaboration between Zen Pinball and Spooky Pinball rumored, leveraging Spooky's horror IP catalog (Halloween, Rob Zombie, Alice Cooper) for Pinball M platform

    low · Chris mentions 'we keep on throwing this rumor' about Zen-Spooky partnership; observes Spooky's horror stock-in-trade would fit Pinball M aesthetic perfectly

  • ?

    announcement: Zen Pinball M officially soft-launched on Steam as 'Coming Soon' with horror-themed mature content focus and Wrath of the Elder Gods Director's Cut confirmed

    high · Chris demonstrates Steam store page showing Pinball M listing; Zen representative Mel acknowledged soft launch and stated public announcement is being prepared

  • ?

    product_strategy: Wrath of the Elder Gods Director's Cut features enhanced gore visual effects including blood trails, handprints, splatter graphics, eyeball multiball targets, and more menacing tentacle rendering

    high · Chris and Jared analyze comparative images showing new blood details on ramps, desk, walls, Maw creature; describe as 'much more meaty' and 'menacing'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Speculation that Elvira and the Party Monsters / Scared Stiff could be brought to Pinball M given horror theme fit and prior censorship issues (cleavage modesty spider web in original arcade)

    low · Chris notes Elvira was historical reason for Pinball Arcade After Dark; questions if maturity rating would finally allow Elvira content without censorship; mentions arcade modesty modifications

  • ?

    business_signal: Zen's prior messaging that Pinball FX is the unified core platform contradicted by Pinball M launch, suggesting strategic pivot or shift in platform architecture philosophy

    medium · Chris quotes Mel's prior assertion that 'Pinball FX is the platform, the core platform. Everything goes into it' and contrasts with Pinball M as separate app

  • ?

    technology_signal: Zen implementing novel UI features in Pinball M (Leagues, Campaign, Mastery system, mysterious 'Volt' feature) potentially as experimental testbed before mainline Pinball FX integration

    medium · Hosts observe new menu options absent from Pinball FX; Chris notes Zen's history of testing features separately; suggests leagues were rumored in development long ago

    • 2:10
    You know, this isn't a full butter cabinet restoration. This is me making the art more prominent on it, but still keeping the original history of the cabinet in place.
    2:22
    And I think, yeah, I made the decision a while ago to go, no, I'm just going to leave the gouges on because it speaks to a story of the cabinet. um but still yeah touch up the art make it a bit more vibrant basically all right i know that's like some some people will be going oh where's your pond doing this and also because i couldn't really be bothered and also the thing is is the other thing is too like like you could bond it with but the thing is it's like literally one ply deep so okay that top layer because it's like seven ply wood up there yeah so there's one sheet of fly that's got a planky in it so So that's actually not that easy to restore because it's thin. So you can just leave it alone, you know.
    3:07
    Fair enough. And, yeah, just touch it. And, you know, the thing is that people aren't really going to see it. It's going to be up against other machines. I mean, this week at the BPAC Festival, I saw that over at Brewdog in Murray because all the machines are lined up in rows and you can't really see the art on them, really. So it doesn't matter. yeah so that's that's what i'm doing about that and i'm pretty much done all i need to do is a little bit of black on the head and that's job done you know knocked it over while all the other machines are over at b-back being flogged there you go all right i uh noticed um there's a trend kind of happening uh here stateside where uh people are opening up arcades again like actual arcades. Throwback arcades. Oh, like standalone arcades? Yeah. And what they're... Well, the one that I just watched a video on today is in Pennsylvania. They titled it Back to the Arcade. That's the name of the shop. And they put it inside of a dead mall.
    4:12
    I don't know if you know that term, Jared, but here at Stateside, we have a lot of shopping malls that come on very hard time, and there's very few stores actually opened in them and so you can imagine that would make them very cheap yes rent yes and so that's exactly what they did and uh uh kitted this thing out in full 80s arcade glory with the loud carpet and black lights lighting the walls um but the cabinets they had in there were very nice looking for i mean it was a mix of pin and uh video arcade but I liked what their... They weren't going for quantity, that's for sure.
    4:55
    But they had all four Pac-Man things. So Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Super Pac-Man, and Pac-Man Plus. And they were all right next to each other. Wow, that's pretty cool. Yeah, so they were doing that kind of thing, where just kind of matching up different things. And then their pinball selection, they had about eight or nine machines. nothing terribly old. I think the oldest actually was Adam's family and then they had like Big Hurt and Dead East Jurassic Park but then everything else was all Modern Stern.
    5:31
    Oh, right. Okay. But I thought it was... Yeah, that was like, oh man, that'd be a fun time to go into there. And then I saw another one where it was one of these people that has just the insane pinball collection of you know they've just been storing them in a warehouse and decided well let's dust these off and let people play and put them somewhere yeah put them somewhere and theirs is one of those it's you know everything's on free play but you walk in and you pay your flat rate pay your flat rate and then you know go and go have a good time um but i think they had something like 700 machines on display.
    6:10
    What? Yeah. Just insane. And they were... So, pretty much, it's the new Pimple Hall of Fame. Pretty much. Right. Okay. And it's not like... Where is this located? It was on the East Coast somewhere. I really don't remember what the location was. I think it was actually, I should say not East Coast, probably Midwest, like Idaho, not Idaho, Iowa, I think. Mm-hmm. But it's one of these guys... What's that? Lucky Iowa. but it's one of these guys who has just obviously lots of disposable income and money to spend on warehouse space um did you like win the lottery or something i don't think so he's just been apparently been collecting over the years um but the thing is is he's still collecting he's still buying the new machines so wow he hasn't stopped and he's got the collection that he's putting out to the public. And then he's got his collection that he has just in his basement that is a massive basement that he's fully kitted out and, you know, made into one of those basement arcades. I was just, like, blown away. I'm like, man, why don't these people exist in California?
    7:28
    Exactly. Right? Or here in Brisbane, like, these really massive collections. That they're willing to share with everyone. Well, I mean, we did have that person. They were in... they were out and banning and they were only able to be open four times a year um yeah because it's silly zoning that's right you know all right um so i think you folks can tell by the title then they did generally announce it or did you just find it jared i was made aware of it actually my pinball whiz um that this thing exists it was definitely at least soft launched yeah so over over on steam all of a sudden jared sends me this link and it's zen pinball m like what what do we have here and uh you know what's that m stand for could it be mature yes it could be so if we go over to um over steam you can type in yourself look for pinball m you can wish list it as it's coming soon um you gotta believe if it's up there now as a coming soon that's sometime in 2023 i would yeah i would i think so yes i don't think they'd like have it up there for like months upon months upon end no uh so in their descriptor here it says get ready to tilt into terror the new horror inspired inspired pinball platform for fearless players. Prove your skills on the most sinister, gory, and badass tables ever brought to life.
    9:11
    Sounds good. Sounds about right. So it's interesting that they're leaning into horror as the selling point. As opposed to just a catch-all, mature thing. Honestly, this made me laugh. I'm pretty sure it made you laugh too, Jared. because I think we all remember, all of you fine listeners and viewers that have watched us over the years, the oh-so-fateful Christmas where Farsight decided to do the 12 Days of Pinball Arcade, and on one of those announced that they were doing Pinball Arcade After Dark, which is a reference to Cinemax. When they used to do Cinemax After Dark on Fridays, that was where they displayed their mature content movies.
    10:00
    Yeah. And I don't even recall, what was... Why did Pinball Arcade decide that they might need to do that?
    10:10
    I can't even recall why. It was because of the... It had something to do with their rating on the store and the fact that they couldn't put some games into the Pinball Arcade and they had to make a separate app for it. Was it... was it inspired by Elvira and not the Party Monsters Scared Stiff? Scared Stiff, I think it kind of was they wanted to put the uncensored rom into it and they thought, oh we'll have it out in the dark and we can actually make it an uncensored rom and then of course that led us to spin oh that means we're going to go after Capcom and we can get Big Bang Bar and they can do oh they've got Stern so they could do Sopranos, they could do Bally Playboy, all these things that might get them into hot water.
    11:06
    And that, you know, obviously fizzled out too much comic proportions. So, of course, yeah, so when I see this,
    11:15
    my first thought was, okay, what the heck are we getting into then with, if you're going horror, does that bring us back to Elvira as a possibility? um knowing how zen was censoring cleavage in fx3 now obviously they're not censoring things in pinball effects but elvira is a little bit step beyond what's in pinball effects right now
    11:44
    well that's right yeah it's got like you know it's definitely got low hanging cleavage i thought I thought you were going to say low-hanging fruit there. I was very tempted to, but I decided not to.
    11:55
    But no, you know, in the arcade, they had to release, like, a modesty spider web. Oh, that's great. I forgot about that. Because it was, like, a little bit too racy. You know?
    12:07
    Yeah, so, you know, they'll be able to do all sorts of stuff in there. They'll be able to have all the innuendo laid in, like, giving Elphara multiple jackpots, etc. Yeah. The things that we love to do to Elphara in that game. so that'll be fun yeah so some of the things here that it then says just in terms of mature content description it says this game may contain content not appropriate for all ages or may not be appropriate for viewing at work being frequent violence or gore and general mature content covers a lot I love how you can actually play games at work I love how you can play games at work that they suggest that's even a thing. I want to go to that place.
    12:52
    Don't mind me. I'm just playing pinball. That's right. Gory pinball. Avent your eyes if you're a Beasley offended.
    13:00
    So the one game that we know for sure that's going to be in this because this is what is listed on there is Wrath of the Elder Gods Director's Cut.
    13:12
    So you may be asking, what's going to be in the Director's Cut? Very good question. It's already pretty full on that table as a look. Yes, but clearly they can do a little bit more. So let me bring up an image or two. One second. We'll have a little looky-looky of what they might be doing.
    13:39
    All right. So there you see it. There is the table. And at first glance, you might be going, okay, I'm not seeing anything different. However, I will direct your eyes down to the desk in the lower left corner, and you notice all those bloody handprints.
    13:52
    Yeah, that looks interesting, doesn't it? Right. The ramps and the launch lane have a trail of blood.
    13:59
    Drag mocks on all the ramps. And then the flippers are nice and glowy. Yeah. Which is just a nice, I guess, quality of life addition.
    14:11
    Yeah, yeah. Moving over here, here you're going to really see a lot of splatter up on the wall. up around the Maw's mouth. Yeah, true. There's definitely some there, isn't there? Yep. And then going over here, that looks like some eyeballs for multi-ball purposes. Yeah, that would be true. In the horseshoe lane and the two loops Yeah that would be true So I curious to like do the eyeballs pop out of the beast or do they just magically appear i don know i not gotten far in this game so i don't know what one point ball capture is there uh i've been to the wizard mode on it okay and the balls just come out basically okay they don't come out of the eye sockets at the moment i mean that seems like a logical choice here that'd be fun if the eyes popped out yeah literally go pop pop pop out of the beast and off they go rolling around that would be really cool as an effect noticing the top right of the playfield how they've got that little extra bit of red blood in the top right of the playfield just below the window where the thing comes out and grabs your ball yeah so where the tentacle comes out and that looks like that tentacle looks even a little bit more menacing like it's got a big red sort of backlight to it and it's got a shadow and stuff like that. So it looks definitely better. I think if you have a look at the Maw, it looks more meaty as well.
    15:42
    Like it looks a little bit more fleshy inside the Maw spin disc thing. Okay. And for reference sake,
    15:52
    this is what the current version of the game looks like. So clean, no blood trails. No blood. No splatters.
    16:02
    But I do wonder if they're going to do anything, like, are there going to be different call-outs that they're adding into this? I hope so. I hope they rethink everything about it, like make the music far less jovial. Oh my God, change the music, please. Please, please, please, please change the music.
    16:25
    I would rebuy it if the music was different, for sure. Absolutely rebuy it. because that music is infuriating. It's just the wrong fit for the table. And call-outs, it would be nice to look at call-outs again and maybe make some... I mean, it's a funny mix with call-outs. They're sort of a little bit jovial, like some of them a little bit sort of light-hearted. I just don't think that that's right for this table. It needs to be like fighting for your life sort of call-outs because this theme is like, you know, these creatures are here and they're trying to get you sort of thing. It just makes the table...
    17:07
    It just doesn't fit, really, I don't think, in my opinion. I'm curious, too. Do we think this is just going to be a free table for Pinball M?
    17:16
    Well, I don't... Yes, I think there probably will be a free table because I don't think people are going to start buying it again just to get the gory inclusions. This will be your fishtails, your sorcerer's lair, Wild West, basically. Yeah, because this is going to be a whole new platform by the looks of it. It's a separate app for other things as well.
    17:41
    So, yeah, it doesn't look like it's going to be like it's got a different listing on Steam. That means it's going to be a different app that you'll need to launch, I think.
    17:50
    So, we're going to get into our speculation of what we think about the reasons for that, too, but I'm going to show you one other thing here. and that is this that's a very different looking theme to the pin room isn't it and what's interesting here is that this particular room seems themed especially for Wrath of the Elder Gods in the period time period that it's actually made in so So I wonder what will happen if more games get added to this. Are they going to have... Because it almost looks like a corner. Like a corner of an alley or something like that. So I wonder if you switch between the tables, if each one is going to have their own sort of corner that they live in. That'd certainly be interesting. Especially so it says up there at the top, game modes. So we've got their classic game modes there, classic challenges, which I assume would be the same challenges that exist for Wrath of the Elder Gods in pin effects. And then you've got the pinball M challenges which is kind of interesting. I wonder what that might entail.
    19:07
    Look at what is at the top of the table. Yes. The table's highlight, leagues. Leagues is interesting. Now we have heard rumor ages ago when they were releasing, I think it was in early access, they were looking at doing leagues. Yes. a long, long time ago. And this might be where they're actually, you know, using this platform to do a bit of testing on these before they roll it into the main platform. Because we do know Xen has a history of experimenting in the wild with this sort of thing. Right. So perhaps this is almost like, if you think about like an alpha channel for Pimble M, a way of Pimble effect, sorry, where they can test out some ideas and have it separate from the main product. so yeah leagues is an interesting addition what else do we see here we have campaign which again why do we need a campaign I don't know that's different and then play corner settings so this flows into the whole idea of having 8 corner I didn't even see that when I was making those comments before and yeah you're right play corner is interesting does that let you adjust does it let you adjust the sort of the environment a little bit in there? Well, again, I'm imagining if you earn trophies of any sort or maybe there's special trophies that you would earn for this that you can put. I mean, there are some nooks and crannies there that maybe they would be able to exist on. Maybe. Then you have table settings,
    20:45
    which, oh, please, I'm hoping. might we finally get a lighting setting? Or is it merely a setting between being able to play the regular version of Wrath of the Elder Gods and the Director's Cut version? It seems weird that they have an entire separate setting. Or maybe it is a customization of the content.
    21:16
    Maybe you don't like the sound of blood. Maybe you don't want to hear language. maybe you know it possible yeah i think it'll be a fair a reasonable thing to you know it like for example if you wanted your kids to experience this yeah and you said okay well let's it's right in but i'm happy if you play it if we turn off the language for example i think that's probably a a way that you could you know at parent discretion obviously but you could you know get your kids involved in this platform as well safely. Yeah. So that will be an interesting configuration to add. Table Guide Self-Explanatory and then, yeah, Table Masteries.
    22:01
    Which is different to Challenges, which is interesting. Not that one. Let's go to this button. Hey, there I am. Yeah. Hello.
    22:11
    That's what happens when you use your fingers without looking at the keyboard. I don't know I mean Mastery currently isn't that just hitting wizard mode and getting the one extra item in pin effects I don't know what that's going to be there's lots of extra menus that we don't know anything about so there's some interesting stuff floating around just in that picture alone that's worth some further investigation at least. What the heck is Volt?
    22:49
    Volt. At the top there, next to tournament, says Volt. Yeah. Volt. I don't know. Don't either. What Volt would be. No.
    23:06
    That's, yeah. I don't have any clue what Volt could be. Ah, hmm. so it really is interesting if they're using this as like you said a testing ground because what's odd about this whole thing Mel was very adamant about the fact that pin effects is the platform the core platform everything goes into it yeah so what's this right what's going on here I can see now I can see it from one particular angle here for the consoles they need a separation of content ratings right they've never allowed you to buy a core game and then buy mature DLC ah right okay which is weird. I've always thought it was weird because I'm like, hey, if I'm able to buy it, isn't that by agreement, by tacit agreement, saying that I'm cool with it? I'm allowed. That I'm allowed? Yeah. But maybe that does screw up the ratings, or maybe it's a case of, you know, Hasbro going, we really don't want trolls right next to a gory game.
    24:31
    Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, who knows why? But I suspect that when it comes to Steam, that's not an issue.
    24:44
    And so I wonder if at some point the two could be combined. Whether it be reverse, like let's say it's, well, if you own Pinball M, you'll have access to all of your content that you owned in PenFX, and you can just use Pinball M as your platform. Launcher. So you buy it in Pinball M, essentially, and then play it in Pinball Effect. So Pinball M becomes like an entitlement sort of thing. Or is it, and I'm thinking with Star Wars VR, we have that whole room that we were able to be in. And we've commented about how the pin cave, where the pinball machine actually is, isn't different at all than what's in Star Wars for the most part. No. But if you shifted your view over to the left, there was like a seating area and a big TV. So it was like a whole other room, right? Yeah. And it would be interesting if... Or zone. Right. So if you thought of this being on a platter, and there's this one corner that is, and then the whole platter just goes... And then in comes your next zone, which is Pinball M. Yeah. I don't know if that's... They could definitely do it like that. It'd be interesting. Like a big... Like a rotisserie. Yeah. A lazy season of pinball, if you will. Right. So that the titles that are pinball M exclusive would still stay pinball M exclusive. They wouldn't be selectable right next to your Snoopy pinball, right? Yeah. But they would be... You'd have to go to a new tab that says pinball M. And then I'm thinking that tab could actually be parental locked.
    26:23
    So, you know, it'd be like, sorry, you don't have access to this. Move along, you know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. spitballing because we haven't been able to do spitballing in a while so why not no we haven't this is the first time we've been able to do pure speculation because we really don't know a great deal about this yeah uh so obviously it got my wheels turning again first thing that popped into my mind literally was elvira um does that mean we're only going to get elvira in here because this would be the perfect home for it without having to worry about any of the nonsense and it's still a horror themed uh table obviously it fits the bill basically yeah um what else does this here it says um a library of brand new never before seen tables filled with fear and carnage so it sounds to me like we're getting a whole bunch of news and originals from a whole bunch of probably new licensed properties that i mean yeah which you know they may not have been able to um put these things into the main app which is why this needed to be invented yeah this needed to be stood up and potentially the reason why it was soft launched this is by my speculation here is that we know that in um epic games early access while it was released to us as users to do testing it was absolutely released to get more licenses to sign up to the platform yes it was like a an early like hey look at our new platform on unreal four would you like to come and sign up and give us some some dollar edu's so it was an it was absolutely an onboarding platform just as much as it was a let's work out the bugs in lieu of getting Switch release, which probably would have needed that performance data on Epic Games to inform them of how to actually tune the Switch release, which I guarantee you they were working on in tandem with the release on Epic Games because they knew they had a real beast to tame there. So it's pretty reasonable to assume that soft launching now was to show licensors, potential licensors, that, hey, we've got a platform for you. Come and join us. Right? Yeah. I mean if we had to think about just Zen catalog that they currently have regardless of what the new IP might be but obviously World War Z would fit right at home in here and could use the Director Cut version Yeah so would Doom Doom would be far off Absolutely Doom would be stretched because it had more blood Yeah exactly Alien versus Pinball. Bam.
    29:25
    My God. Predator. AVP. That would be wonderful if you got rid of the stupid voices. Yeah, get rid of the cheese. But Aliens, add in a couple of the more choice lines that you weren't able to put in there dialogue-wise.
    29:41
    That would be good. I'm trying to think what else do they have that's... They really don't have that... Well, Walking Dead. If they got Walking Dead back, be the perfect home for it. That would be good. And they could really amp up the blood on that one. Because it's a bit light on at the moment in that one. Yeah.
    30:03
    If we were to think new IP, new horror, or, well, it doesn't have to be new horror. It could be classic horror.
    30:13
    Well, what about like... I mean, there's where it's like, you know, do you get a Friday the 13th table? You know, they've been working with Paramount.
    30:21
    That's right. I mean, we were over at Halloween. I mean, think about it. Your flippers are machetes.
    30:28
    Yeah. Or even like something more like contemporary, like Scream, for example. You know, they could really do stuff with Scream as a franchise.
    30:40
    You know what I would love to see? And I just... Think Theater of Magic, right? With the rotating cube.
    30:48
    Except for the cube is the Hellraiser cube. And it just launches out hooks and starts peeling back the table.
    30:59
    And... If you want horror, that's like the ultimate horror. I'm just saying, that would be pretty choice. And it's... I mean, when the Theater of Magic cube turns into the magnet, In a lot of respects, it does look like the Lamont configuration cube, but that'd be fun.
    31:17
    Yes. Yeah, that'd be pretty cool. So, I mean, there's already, like, there's the stuff that we haven't notably seen come back to Pinball FX as a core platform yet. All those ones like Alien, Doom, they're probably going to end up in there as attractors into the platform. and they will get extra stuff in them for sure.
    31:44
    Probably, you know, lots more gore. Perhaps they might look at call-outs, hopefully. But yeah, there's plenty of stuff that they can already put in there right now. It seems like it would also, obviously if it starts out horror, but if they instead embrace the M theme, it would allow for things like not that it needs it but put Xenon in here just because I know a lot of people really don't appreciate the voice call outs or the voice in that a little too sexualized oh okay I wouldn't even have picked that in this day and age you wouldn't but that was I remember when that came out in Pinball Arcade and the Digital Pinball Fans Forum there were some people which is like i'm not buying that table because it's too dirty too sexy for me too sexy for me
    32:41
    and if you think about some of the early 80s late 70s artwork on some of the ballet machines um oh it's all like women with big boobs let's let's be serious exactly so case in point all my gotley tables you know that right even the the force two aliens well you know they have a particular shape to them.
    33:03
    If you have a close look at it, which you can't unsee after you've seen it. Right. So yeah, it's, yeah.
    33:11
    Just think like Future Spa. Have you seen the back glass of Future Spa? Future Spa with, with Jacked, Stan Lee and Knock Off Bo Derek.
    33:21
    Yeah. And the dude in the spa bath is the concerning part of Future Spa for me. You look at the back glass next time you see it. Yeah. It's like, thank God I was having a good time in the spa.
    33:33
    We have this messaging group. It's called Sexy Pinball Machines. Okay. And what we're doing is we're taking photographs of all the risque stuff on back glasses and play fields. And Future Spa gets a fair bit of air time in there. Yeah. But yeah, stuff like that. I mean, Future Spa, that's the only part of the game that's risque. Everything else is, it's an early 80s table. There's no call outs or anything. So, if art, is a factor in there, then maybe.
    34:03
    I hope not, though. Yeah, but then it would also open up the door. And look, if we're thinking horror, and if we're thinking conversation that Zen themselves broadcast with Spooky,
    34:19
    we keep on throwing this rumor that, I mean, there's a possibility of them doing something together. And my God, if you open up the horror thing, well, and partnered with Spooky. The tables are horror themed. Yeah.
    34:33
    Like just, you know, Halloween is a good example. Yep. You've got Rob Zombie. You've got... Alice Cooper, right? Alice Cooper. So, yeah. They've got a fairly... That's their stock in trade, really. Because they're massive horror fans, you know.
    34:51
    So, I mean, again, you could put a... a spooky pinball corner in Pinball M quite happily. It's just branching trees of everything that's going on in there.
    35:09
    Yeah. I don't know. Again, it certainly opens up that door because I think at least stateside here, people are much more comfortable with violence than they are with sex.
    35:24
    All right. Interesting. Oh, yeah. I know. You're on the side of the world, Jared, that doesn't care.
    35:30
    Yeah. Bring on the sex and things. Our plot of life, people lose their minds over it. It's the whole thing of a PG-13 movie can show just the most horrific of violence and people getting mowed down by gun, but God forbid if there's a nipple.
    35:52
    Yeah, if there's a nipple, it's like, ooh. Yeah. All the prudes coming out. So it would be an interesting, again, test market to see what's the appetite for mature content and then from there be able to expand out to those. It's a market test. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot. This thing is a massive market test is what it is.
    36:15
    For sure. And, you know, that's smart to keep it away from the main platform and do this testing. I just, it's probably time for us to work out, to discuss the next part of this, which is literally what the forum is talking about all the time. And that is how do you do cross-binders? Like why, where will the entitlements go? Where can you play it?
    36:41
    How will they, how will they manage this on all the different platforms in our support? Like this is a really big unanswered question. and Mel did officially come into the Pinball FX Discord and comment about it after blowing up, going, hey, what is this? And why is there being no announcement?
    37:01
    They're preparing something right now to talk about it and announce it more widely and publicly. And so you would expect the next Pinball Bytes show to cover what this is, what they're going to do with it, potentially even give us a launch date for this thing. So I think based on the fact that they've soft launched it and they've got that initial community feedback, they know exactly what questions they need to answer now as well. Which is, again, you might think this was like, oh, this is a bit weird they did this. No, it was totally intentional. Like they wanted to get market research about what problems people think they'd have with the platform so they can address it and validate probably what they've been talking about in the studio for I'd probably say months now. when they've been developing this and working out partnerships and stuff. So this is the point at the end of it where they can actually start, you know, getting some real feedback from us about it. So, yeah, next Pinball Bites is going to be an interesting one for sure. I mean, this wouldn't be the first time that Zen has done something where they said, buy it here and it'll be unlocked there.
    38:10
    Where was the other example? Because they did that with Marvel. if you purchased the marvel table in marvel pinball this was back in zen uh zen 2 and fx2 days yes um it was so they had they had fx2 and zen 2 pinball but then they also came out with star wars pinball and they came out with marvel pinball and for both of those if you purchased the table within the Star Wars pinball app or the Marvel pinball app, it unlocked in FX2 or Zen pinball 2. But if you purchased it in those two, it did not unlock in Marvel or Star Wars. The other apps. Yeah. Right. So you needed to buy them in the bespoke app for them to unlock in the core app. Yeah. That's... And, you know, tactically, that was a smart decision because, again, those apps were experienced in the wild. Like, they were trying out new things in those apps, right, from memory. Well, it was not just trying out. It was that the licenses wanted a spotlight on their product. Yes, that's the main reason. They didn't want to share.
    39:23
    They wanted what you call a branded experience. Yes. For their product. Yes. which is exactly why Star Wars VR is it because again well that's another example of experimentation of well that was the first Unreal 4 platform apart from Zimpy Ball Park so again the benchmarking on Unreal 4 happened way before Gimbal FX Early Access happening so yeah really the experimentation with the Unreal 4 has been happening now for like two or three years i think yeah um maybe probably more like two um but yeah it's been out there for sure so let's uh spin this conversation away from pinball m and then over into uh that very subject there vr which we have heard zip about meanwhile the vr landscape is changing once again with... So... Okay, so you had that Apple headset get announced at, what was it, $3,500?
    40:34
    Yeah, nice and affordable. Right. And truth be told, it's not meant for gaming. It's meant for everything else, but... It's designed to use a very high-resolution monitor to replace your big Apple screen that you have. Or an alternative to it. But then it was just announced this week that Meta is cancelling development on Pro 2 and is pretty much going to phase out the Pro right now in favor of the Meta 3, the MetaQuest 3. Yes, correct. So that landscape is changing still. I think they're realizing now all these VR companies are realizing it's still pretty niche it's very niche there's not enough people to support multiple variants of headsets and they clearly demonstrated that there's not a demand for high end in this market like people want no I want an affordable consumer grade product that like the Quest 2 probably starts out a little bit performance capped, and then they start unlocking performance capabilities of the platform as they've got data on it. Because you've seen that with Quest 2. Like, they go, oh, yeah, you've now got 120 hertz. You've now got extra GPU power because we know the thing's not going to catch on fire, you know. So they're unlocking capabilities of the headset over time, which breathes new life into it. So this is the pattern now, and they're going to do that with the MetaQuest 3 for sure. And it's going to have the pancake lenses that the Pro had on it. It's going to be basically the Pro, but at a more consumer-friendly price. I just wonder, though, is Zen going to...
    42:33
    I know they've said that they're still going to do VR, but they recognize this niche. They didn't add more tables to Star Wars. No. I mean, which is kind of why I've sat on the fence on purchasing a new headset, because I'm just like, unless I see Zen going full commitment, because that's the only thing I'm going to use it for.
    42:54
    Yeah. Unless I see them go full commitment, I'm not going to waste my money buying it and then being frustrated that Zen's not doing anything. so i know that it's probably way back on their back burner of what needs to be done i think obviously switch was their first thing and i'm sure they're still trying to optimize that thing um i think cabinet is next for what their concerns are uh yeah possibly switching over to unreal 5 not yet but I think we're going to see Unreal 5 for at least 1-2 years they've still got a lot of performance to squeeze out of 4 I think before they have to do an upgrade to 5 I just have a feeling that the VR and especially with the Quest 3 that what they would have to wind up scaling everything to or what they would want to scale everything to as far as that is concerned so um i just think it a ways off which is it unfortunate it be it be quest three primary quest two secondary yeah and that would be the lowest they go yeah um and yeah i think it will be interesting to see if they offer a native experience on vr i my gut says no they won't uh it will be air link or wide connection only to your computer because it's just we saw with with uh star wars vr the experience on native quest 2 is nowhere near as good as it is on pc yeah so if i was to play vr and star wars vr it would be through the pc connected wirelessly all through A-Link. It's just a better experience.
    44:46
    I also mentioned the cabinet because as somebody pointed out, it might have been Retro Ralph that pointed it out, he's like, 1UP is dying.
    45:01
    And somebody else pointed out that on 1UP's announcements or whatever, there is zero mention for pinball at all.
    45:10
    Yep. I don't think 1UP has got the guernsey for if Xen are looking at doing cabinets, it won't be 1UP. Meanwhile, the same thing over at AtGames. They have not done a single thing with their cabinet in terms of upgrades.
    45:28
    So, I don't know. Who's going to do this? Is the cabinet done? Or, I mean, is Xen going to go entirely the DIY route and be like, no, you know what? we built our own we're figuring out the specs you all go build your own we'll help you out in terms of uh what you maybe need to install uh but maybe they see that most people are more interested in just installing a pc and running the game than having a video card built in to do things yeah like an actual platform built in as a as a turn-on solution well there's always the problem is there's always a um they're always built to a price and that price is always low to make them attractive to people to buy like i've still i actually saw one arcade one star wars machine here at costco aussie dollars one thousand dollars there's no way i would spend that money on that thing now yeah it's no way it's not worth that it's worth at a maximum 800 Australian dollars and that would be the most I would pay for the thing.
    46:42
    It's just, it's not a capable platform anymore. I mean, I really do hope that Zen has something up their sleeves because people don't, like there's some people out there that just won't build a cabinet because it's I know that I won't. No, and other than me, even though I'm like I could probably do it because I just don't have the time and honestly it's less about the actual building of the cabinet because you know my friend that helped me build the PIM sim he could easily build a cabinet for me that's you can go and buy a kit that will give you a pinball machine cabinet for digital pinball now for me it's the software the front end getting the front end to work and go through everything without it being a hassle because every single time Zen releases a table, is it going to be a hassle to then try and install and purchase and get that going and stuff like that. So I would love it if, because again, I'm not concerned with having VP10 and playing those. I would be perfectly fine with whatever Zen's offerings are.
    47:55
    I mean, I'm sorry, once you've got as many tables as we have in Zen, I'm not really hurting for anything. and so long as they're keep on producing tables then I'm cool yeah if Zen was tapering down then that'd be another thing that's right but I think if Zen's going to the cabinet space if they can make the onboarding process as easy as possible for people like pick the major pinball front end, like Pinup Popper or something like that, and make it work 100% with that and easily with that,
    48:42
    I think that's the way for them to go. Team up with the community because the community is strong in that space, that cabinet space. I mean, you already see it. We've got that DMD integration now from community folks. So, you know, this is an indication that's the way they're going. They're actually looking at better integration with community-led projects and open source projects that are in the community now. So that's the right direction, I think. The other thing is if they put out their own cabinet, obviously, because you're building to scale and you're buying in mass, in bulk, they're going to be able to get a lot of the parts, the monitors, the pinball legs themselves, for way cheaper than a DIYer would. I mean, again, I discovered that. Pinball legs ain't cheap.
    49:32
    And you're talking domestically in the U.S. Try exporting Gottlieb legs to Australia. Yeah. Yeah, in other words, don't, unless you're doing a container of them. No. So expensive. I'm actually on the... Anyhow, keep going. And then trying to wire up all the actuators and the solenoids and all that jazz. You're doing it nicely. Actually doing it neatly.
    50:01
    I know if you did it, it would be a rat's nest of cables beneath the playfield, right? It would be like, oh, what's the shortest length of wire I can use to fix that? I don't want to have nice cable bundles and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, so that's why I'm like, I really do, I see the advantages. Again, online people are like, nobody wants to spend that much. If they're going to spend that much, you're just going to go full tilt. And I'm like, no, there's always, there's the people that don't want to tinker, there's the people that do want to tinker. And the people that don't want to tinker just want a good, solid product.
    50:33
    And honestly, the problem that happened with arcade one-ups was these things that were supposed to be in the store weren't.
    50:43
    They just never appeared on shelves. And then it became an online-only experience, and it became a waiting list experience, and then they raised the prices and screwed Zen over in that manner. And I'm sure that got Zen in trouble. Well, not in trouble, but had their license holders be like, Hey, that ain't what you promised, which is why I think we never saw the Jurassic Park pinball that was heavily rumored to be the next release from 1UP. I just I think that you need a product that is you can go to the store and pick it up and assemble it you don't have to worry about shipping you don't have to worry about the box being damaged when you get it delivered to you all those issues I can't one up they got that right with the way they ship products and they put them into stores we saw cabinets on the floor like Costco here in Australia, albeit years after they came to America, but that's what we expect now. But they were there on the floor and you could just pick one up, put it on your trolley, take it home, set it up. That is what you want. You want the Ikea of pinball, right?
    51:55
    And like if, you know, it's all you need, it's like, you know, on the box, just add computer and that's all you need, right?
    52:02
    Imagine that. and then if Zen had if Zen offered using with an agreement, properly licensed, respectful of the community the digital pinball community out there a licensed version of say Pinup Popper or something that was directly integrated as part of the pinball effects cabinet experience that's, I mean that solves a lot of problems that makes the community happy they're not misappropriating software um everyone's getting acknowledged and compensated and all those things and then that experience becomes a lot less troublesome for just you know average person wanting to make a digital cabinet or even just use two screens and set it up without any box and just use two screens in a and just a hand controller to get that cabinet like experience no that's not a cabinet like experience well it's it's what some people can afford well i know it's well but when i talk cabinet because i mean that's essentially what i can do here you know i can rotate my screen um and semi lean it and i can bring in my pin sim and plug it in it still is not a cabinet feel i want a big solid box i want a big solid box in front of me laying out the way that it should be i want the nudge to feel legit how i do it um you know it it's it's all about that presentation of right what's right there in front of you um yeah right okay so you want the the big the big honking box in your lounge room you can just turn up yes rock up to and start playing yes yeah yeah it's flick the power switch and within 30 seconds it's good to go um yeah that i'm not having to deal with Windows and updates and, you know, turning this on and making sure the, you know, this, this, and this are all set and functioning and all that. No, I want it to be a simple, boom, flip the switch. I'm ready to play. It's in a track mode. Come play me.
    54:11
    Right. Well, it'll be interesting. Let's see what they settle on. Yeah, I mean. Because, you know, this is in flight at the moment. We're mid-July.
    54:22
    Well, almost to the end of July now. It's quite unbelievable that this year is flying by. Right. We always point out that most of the holiday announcement kind of things, which are your big ticket items, get announced in September, early October.
    54:40
    So if there's anything on the cabinet front, I imagine it's going to be popping up there. I imagine that we're going to be hearing about Pinball M in late August, early September.
    54:51
    Seems to make sense. because we've already had Pinball Bytes this month technically haven't we? Yes I believe so yes so it would be they didn't say there is no schedule for Pinball Bytes they just announced things when they announced so it could be anywhere between now and mid-August really it all depends when they want to shout out about it really and then it would be a question of how much more they announced for Switch well that's an ongoing thing isn't it They're just going to be releasing stuff as they've optimized and keep on going. That's probably the reason why I'm not going to see Unreal 5 until Switch actually upgrades their console to Switch 2. That's when you can expect Unreal 5 to start being considered, I think. And of course, we still don't have all the tables from FX3 inside of pinball effects. Not yet.
    55:51
    That's another factor. where I feel like once that has happened, then the ball is just like, now they're on the bullet train.
    55:59
    Yeah, they're on eagle pegging now, and they can go and do all the other stuff they need to do. Be interesting to see what transpires, what goes down, but like I said, pinball M. There's a lot to answer.
    56:16
    You can better believe we've already put out our feelers to Mel. Yeah. We're trying to get him on to tell us more.
    56:24
    So we'll see what comes of that also. So we appreciate, though, everybody tuning in, watching this show, giving us your feedback. Please, again, if you have comments for anything that you want us to address or feature on a show, do for a new thing. That's how the poll came about last time. We would love to do exactly that. So don't hesitate to pop onto the socials and communicate with us in that manner. Jared tends to be the one that responds on Discord. I tend to be the one that responds on Twitter. And both of us take cracks at YouTube.
    57:03
    Usually, yeah, I'm usually just putting my name into the comments I respond to. Also, the streaming will continue until morale improves. That will be coming back next week. because I've been winning tournaments this week at BPAC. So I've been busy during the evenings. Well, not winning tournaments, getting podium finishes, but that's winning to me. That's right. Yeah. So being in the same breathing atmosphere as Steve Bowden, so that's quite nice.
    57:38
    So, yeah, that'll be happening again this week, and I've got some episodes to cut up and upload to YouTube so that that content will keep on coming. so yeah come and catch up with me on stream and you can chat about things you want to talk about you want us to talk about on the show as well I always like it, I definitely prefer people to come on the stream and harangue me while I'm playing that's why I do it, I want to talk to you all so come along and say g'day whenever you see the broadcast announcement come up in Discord and join our BlackAid Discord for more information, it's pretty low traffic there you go so that's all the news that we have this time of course next time it's everything that Jared loves to talk about we all love stuff and things till then folks bye bye see you later