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Bonus Podcast: Dutch Pinball - Past, Present and Future

Pinball News & Pinball Magazine Pincast·podcast_episode·2h 0m·analyzed·Sep 3, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Barry Dreesen discusses Dutch Pinball's rise with Lebowski and collapse into ARA manufacturing crisis, lawsuit, and pivot attempts.

Summary

Barry Dreesen of Dutch Pinball recounts the company's history from The Big Lebowski's anonymous 2013 Expo tease through the catastrophic 2016 manufacturing dispute with ARA. The interview covers early enthusiasm and pre-orders, the Phil refund incident, prototyping challenges, ARA's cost overruns (~€1,000 per unit), a false excuse about board problems, the failed pivot to Chinese manufacturer Zytec, ARA's lawsuit filing, and a December 2018 court hearing. Barry expresses regret about the deceptive board excuse but maintains Dutch Pinball's contract position was sound.

Key Claims

  • Big Lebowski was announced anonymously at Pinball Expo October 2013 by Barry and Yap with flyers distributed by hired bunny girls

    high confidence · Barry confirms the bunny girl detail, flyers were anonymous, early teasing before official business formation

  • Dutch Pinball secured 185-250+ early achiever pre-orders after Expo 2014, with 55 games ultimately shipped to early achievers before production halted

    medium confidence · Barry states '185' after refunds but also mentions 'somewhere 200 plus or something, 250 plus maybe' initially; uncertain on exact numbers

  • ARA demanded approximately €1,000 additional per-unit cost after initial games shipped, creating the core manufacturing dispute

    high confidence · Barry confirms ARA wanted 'another 1,000 euros per game' and that there were two price increments, though he notes the €1,000 figure came from Dutch Pinball's own seminars

  • Dutch Pinball blamed a non-existent board defect to prevent early achiever pickups in June 2016, buying time during ARA negotiations

    high confidence · Barry explicitly regrets and apologizes for the 'stupid excuse,' confirms it wasn't true, admits they thought it would resolve in 1-2 weeks

  • ARA's cost overruns were driven by underestimating material costs and assembly labor, not just hourly rates

    high confidence · Barry attributes increases to 'a little bit of both' materials and time; acknowledges pinball manufacturing complexity surprised even experienced contractors

  • Zytec (Chinese manufacturer) was contacted and produced a prototype; a Zytec game appeared at TPO Expo alongside an ARA unit with comparable quality

    medium confidence · Barry confirms Zytec contact, China trip, prototype building; notes both machines 'almost identical in terms of build quality' at TPO Expo

  • ARA's lawsuit filing occurred during Dutch Pinball's Zytec startup phase, blocking the China pivot due to capital constraints and legal costs

    high confidence · Barry confirms lawsuit filing happened during Zytec phase; attributes failure to proceed to financial constraints and investment costs

Notable Quotes

  • “making pinball is hard. And even if you have a company with many years of experience, it still is very, very hard.”

    Barry Dreesen @ ~53:30 — Core insight explaining why experienced ARA underestimated costs; recurring industry lesson

  • “I mean, I think everybody thought you were the saviour of pinball bringing out this wonderful licence and such a great product but then after that there seemed to be a bit of, well a lot of doubt introduced”

    Martin O (interviewer) @ ~25:00 — Captures sentiment shift from unbridled enthusiasm to community doubt after Phil incident and manufacturing delays

  • “Yeah, of course I regret it. I mean, I think I know some people think we're liars and try to con people and our Ponzi scheme or whatever you call it. But, of course, I regret that stupid excuse.”

    Barry Dreesen @ ~58:00 — Barry explicitly apologizes for the board defect lie; addresses accusations of fraud/Ponzi scheme

  • “every problem can be fixed. And I'm normally, as you might know, pretty positive about stuff. So I thought, well, come on. This is going to be, you know, negotiations for a week, maybe two weeks, and then we can start again.”

    Barry Dreesen @ ~56:30 — Explains optimism bias that led to the false board excuse; fundamental misassessment of dispute severity

  • “You know, with all the different materials, you have your wooden playfield with plastics and then metal parts, and especially the wood is always a little bit different. You have some margins and stuff like that. And it's also really a very time-consuming production.”

    Barry Dreesen @ ~48:00 — Details manufacturing complexity; educates listeners on why pinball costs and timelines are difficult to predict

  • “I think they have 60 or 80 years history. But like some wise man once said, making pinball is hard.”

    Barry Dreesen @ ~47:30 — Acknowledges ARA's experience but emphasizes pinball's unique challenges even for seasoned contractors

  • “I think I was contacted more like incidental by SciTech and it was you know right at the time that we thought this is never going to happen with ARA”

Entities

Barry DreesenpersonMartin OpersonJonathan JusonpersonDutch PinballcompanyThe Big LebowskigameARAcompanyZyteccompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: ARA cost overruns (~€1,000/unit post-delivery) and inability to meet production timeline ramped from 3 to 10 machines/week by end of May 2016 revealed fundamental contract disconnect and manufacturing complexity underestimation

    high · Barry confirms ARA wanted 'another 1,000 euros per game' after initial shipments; production never scaled to 10/week; materials and labor exceeded estimates

  • ?

    business_signal: ARA lawsuit filing during Zytec startup phase (2016-2018) combined with capital constraints blocked China manufacturing pivot; court hearing December 5, 2018 applied pressure but timeline extended multi-year legal dispute

    high · Barry: lawsuit 'happened during our startup phase with Scitech...became a problem...mostly financial...investments involved' and 'legal disputes, it's going to take a lot of time, a lot of money'

  • ?

    community_signal: June 2016 factory tour false board defect excuse damaged community trust; Barry later apologizes for lie and admits skeptics questioned company honesty and Ponzi scheme allegations

    high · Barry: 'I think I know some people think we're liars and try to con people and our Ponzi scheme or whatever you call it. But, of course, I regret that stupid excuse.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Pinball manufacturing complexity (wood playfield variation, multi-material integration, hand assembly labor intensity) systematically underestimated by even experienced contract manufacturers; core industry lesson articulated by Barry

    high · Barry: 'making pinball is hard...wooden playfield with plastics and then metal parts...especially the wood is always a little bit different...also really a very time-consuming production...have to do literally everything by hand'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.362

0:00
Hello everyone and welcome to this special bonus podcast with Pinball Magazine's Jonathan Juson and Pinball News' Martin O, that's me, and we are here in a special interview to talk to Barry Dreesen of Dutch Pinball, who I know has a really fascinating story to tell us and a lot of information to impart and I know there are a lot of people out there who are very interested to hear what he has to say. So, good evening, Barry. Yes, good evening, Martin and Jonathan. Good evening. So, for those who are not familiar on what has been going on and those living under a rock and such,
0:47
Barry Dreesen is owner of Dutch Pinball and Dutch Pinball developed a game called The Big Lebowski. and that's a title that was being, the pinball community sort of was looking for a manufacturer to make a Big Lebowski game and apparently none of the big manufacturers at that time were interested in it and Barry and his friends figured, why not do it ourselves? Well, I'm not sure whether they thought that, but that's my interpretation. So, we're going to give you a brief historic timeline, so to speak.
1:31
Yes. Well, Martin, you did your homework. Yes. The first, well, not rumors, but pieces of the game came at Pinball Expo in October 2013, when Barry and Yap were there and were handing out flyers which sort of had a game, A5 size flyers, which had a game covered with a rug so you couldn't actually see what it was.
1:59
And the actual name of the game was not revealed at that point either. But it fairly soon became apparent exactly what it was and it was the Big Lebowski. and it was also revealed that Dutch Pinball, who were well known at that point already for their work on Bride of Pinbot 2.0 they had been working on the Big Lebowski for a year prior to that and the game was actually first revealed to the public in September of 2014 at a launch party at the appropriately named Lebowskis in Utrecht. Correct. Yes, and what a fun night that was. I think Jonathan was there, and there were many friends from the Dutch pinball community.

  • Court hearing regarding ARA dispute occurred December 5, 2018 (a Dutch holiday), with judge pressure to resolve rather than ruling

    high confidence · Barry confirms date and holiday coincidence; notes legal disputes consume significant time and money

  • Dutch Pinball maintains they had a solid contract with ARA at agreed price and strong legal position despite timeline disputes

    medium confidence · Barry affirms 'Yes, yes, that's correct. I think we had a strong case.' regarding contract enforcement, though acknowledges timeline wasn't contractually mandated

  • Phil's US operation involvement ended in refunds of buyer down payments, creating early skepticism but not lasting loss of confidence among most early achievers

    high confidence · Barry describes Phil separation as unplanned, regrettable, unrelated to later issues; notes positive feedback from customers despite negativity at the time

    • Barry Dreesen @ ~61:00 — Zytec (likely SciTech/Zytec) was serendipitous contact; shows desperation and strategic pivot away from ARA

  • “I think the reason that it didn't go through with Scitech was mostly financial. The cost of starting up and the free money or the capital that you had available”

    Barry Dreesen @ ~64:00 — Capital constraints and ARA lawsuit blocked China manufacturing pivot; financial squeeze was decisive factor

    • Phil
    person
    Yap/Kunperson
    Bride of Pinbot 2.0game
    Pinball Expo October 2013event
    Lebowski's bar, Utrechtlocation
    Penthouse partiesevent
    Pinball Expo October 2014event
    TPO Expo (Eindhoven)event
    Dutch Pinball Openevent
    Factory tours February & June 2016event
    December 5, 2018 court hearingevent
    $

    market_signal: Anonymous flyer teaser campaign with hired bunny girls at Expo 2013 was successful community engagement; created viral speculation before official announcement 2014; three prototype machines at Expo 2014 generated massive hype and long queues

    high · Barry confirms anonymous flyering with hired bunny girls; Jonathan/Martin describe 'unbridled enthusiasm,' 'everybody was talking about that,' people 'lining up to play,' 'hype was really, really big'

  • ?

    community_signal: Barry's optimism bias ('every problem can be fixed') caused fundamental miscalculation that ARA dispute would resolve in 1-2 weeks; leading to false board excuse and extended trust erosion

    high · Barry: 'I thought, well, come on. This is going to be, you know, negotiations for a week, maybe two weeks, and then we can start again...when it took longer, well, people started emailing ARA about it'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Big Lebowski shipped only 55 units to early achievers (of 185+ pre-orders) before manufacturing halted June 2016; extended legal stalemate lasted 2.5+ years through December 2018 with no resolution described

    high · Barry confirms '55' total early achiever shipments; court hearing December 5, 2018; legal dispute began ~June 2016

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community sentiment shifted from 'unbridled enthusiasm' and viewing Dutch Pinball as 'saviour of pinball' pre-2016 to significant doubt and skepticism after Phil incident, false excuses, and manufacturing delays

    high · Martin: 'everybody thought you were the saviour of pinball...but then after that there seemed to be a bit of, well a lot of doubt introduced...not everybody bought back into it'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Zytec Chinese manufacturing demonstrated comparable build quality to Dutch ARA facility (assessed visually by players at TPO Expo); proved viability of China production alternative if capital available

    medium · Barry: Zytec game and ARA game at TPO Expo 'seemed both to be, well, almost identical in terms of build quality as far as a player could see...both played very well...seemed to be...a viable means'

    • 2:50
    Yeah, I'm sure you had more than a little hand in arranging that as well. I think it was me who mentioned to Barry that there is a Lebowski's bar in Utrecht, which resulted in the lunch party being held there.
    3:03
    Yeah, and I was sufficiently enthused by the whole idea that I flew over to be at the launch as well. So that was a really fun night.
    3:14
    And then the, I suppose the next thing was the following month at Pinball Expo, one year on from the initial tease, where the first prototype games were shown. And, of course, you did your seminar there to introduce the game to everybody. Yes. Not only the seminar, there were also the infamous penthouse parties.
    3:35
    Yeah, that's true, yes. as plenty of white Russians enjoyed all around and multiple screenings of the big Lebowski up in the penthouse. Yes, that was a fun time as well. Yeah, I think the result of those parties was that the hotel in Wheeling insisted that no longer it would be allowed to have pivot machines in your room.
    4:01
    Oh, okay. Exactly. Yeah, that's the reason why. Oh, well, okay. Sorry, folks. I'm afraid it didn't sound like it was too much, too rowdy there, but with the games. Oh, it was. You left too early, Martin.
    4:15
    I guess if you were renting one of the adjacent rooms or did any of the ones underneath, you may have a different opinion on that, I suppose. Yeah, we asked to join us at our party, but they were just mad. Yeah, okay, fair enough.
    4:32
    But soon after that, there was a falling out with Phil, who was running the US side of the operation, who refunded many buyers' down payments and started a period where people were questioning the business practices of Dutch Pinball and exactly how the finances were being managed. And then in December 2015 It was revealed that the license for the Gbasky Didn't include the use of any of the original artist's music Which everybody, including you I'm sure too Barry Thought was included So that had to be re-recorded with different musicians and vocalists And then Well no vocalists No vocalists, okay So 20, oh it was all instrumental Can I say something about that? Yeah, absolutely. Or do you want to just do the timeline? Yeah, let me take it up to June, shall we, 2016. Because in February and June, you did two factory tours at ARA, at their facility in the Dutch town of Aalten, I think.
    5:44
    Yes. The production schedule was announced as well, with building three machines a week initially. that's through March and building up to five in April and then eventually up to ten a week by the end of May and in April of that year the first games were shipped to early achievers and that was followed in June by a second factory tour and so that's June 2016 take the timeline up to there because that's the point at which things start to change but let's go back as well and look at the build-up to all that and the launch and all the excitement and enthusiasm that was around in the collector community when that first was announced?
    6:33
    Yeah, I think, first of all, 2013, I wasn't there with Jaap. I was there with Kun. I think we were just there to show our Bride and Pet Boy 2.0. And I thought it would be fun if we did some anonymous flyering about Lebowski already, you know, just to see how people would respond. As you may recall, the flyers were anonymous, not from the pinball. Right. They were also handed out by girls dressed up in bowling alley outfits, something like that, if I recall correctly. Yeah, the bunny girls. Yeah, from the bar across the parking lot. No, no, no. I just found them online. They were hired especially for this purpose To hand out the flyers anonymously So that was fun And Jad was already involved in Dutch Pinball But I think we were not actually a BV yet Which is something like an LLC in the US And I was there with Koen and Scott Just doing the Bride of Pinball thing and it was only for a year later that we started the business officially with job and then of course the the launch party in 2014 with the with the parties right yeah okay which i have to compliment you guys on i mean um i don't think i've ever seen another any other pinball machine making impact like you guys did at Expo.
    8:15
    That was really, everybody was talking about that. People were lining up to play that game. You had three playing prototypes, if I recall correctly. Yes. And everybody was, like, amazed, basically. And the hype was really, really big at that time. Yes. Yes, fun times. And did that hype translate into orders in the way that you were expecting? Did you get pre-orders on those games in the numbers that you were expecting? Did you sell out all slots at that point?
    8:51
    Or was it, you tell us how it went. I think at that point we took pre-orders for the game only on Expo. I think we said something like, we're just going to take pre-orders at Expo, and then we're going to close the early achiever list.
    9:12
    So we didn't want to get too many orders to make things really complicated. After that, we said, okay, we're just going to take this group, we're going to build those machines, and after that, we're going to take more orders and build new games. So we said, everything up to Expo will be early achiever, and after that there's going to be regular games, and we didn't take any pre-orders for that. It was just the early achievers.
    9:43
    And how many early achievers were there at that point? Yeah, after the big incident, I don't recall how many there were. I have to look it up, but I don't know, somewhere 200 plus or something, 250 plus maybe. I don't know the exact numbers, And I think after that, when we got some new orders in from people that got refunded, I think we stuck somewhere at 185.
    10:18
    Okay, that's good. Yeah, if I'm not so correctly, I'm not sure whether it's of any importance, So at Expo, people were told that the early achievers, that would be the people who pre-ordered at Pinwall Expo. But I think two or three weeks later, the Dutch Pinwall Open was held,
    10:48
    and visitors of the Dutch Pinwall Open could still get in on that early achiever deal, if I'm not mistaken.
    10:56
    Could be. I don't know. Not that important. In the pre-interview, my memory is not that good, and I don't have the timeline laying next to me. So I think we might have, but there were not many sales on DPO. Right. Probably because most of the Dutch people or people visiting the Dutch Female Open already showed their interest and ordered a game if they wanted one. Oh, well. Yeah. and did you think that um i mean looking back now do you do you think that that falling out with phil um had any material impact apart from the loss of the number of orders was that was that in any way a sort of start of people doubting or losing their confidence in in the whole project or do you think everybody who was uh in after that point was was rock solid and um and fully behind you? I think most people were still fully behind me and most of them still are because after my last newsletter I sent out I got really positive feedback from almost every one of them.
    12:09
    Of course it wasn't, how you would say it, universal I guess. No, no, I mean the thing that happened wasn't, you know, nice. No, sure. It was not something I planned for, not something I expected. I mean, it was crazy.
    12:29
    And yeah, I don't want to discuss too much detail about this. I mean, everybody, some people know what happened, some people don't know, but yeah, it happened, and I'm trying to forget it. Well, it's definitely something that Dutch Pinball moves forward on, so to speak. I mean, that's not something that affected what happened later, at least. No. I never understood it like that. No, it's completely unrelated to what happened later. Yeah, yeah. Nothing to do with ARA or something. Yeah. Okay. No, sure. But what I'm wondering is, it seemed that up until that point, there was unbridled enthusiasm for everything you had done everybody was so excited by the prospect of these games there was no criticism that I could see anywhere at least not in any significant amount about what you were doing, how you were doing it everybody thought you were the saviour of pinball bringing out this wonderful licence and such a great product but then after that there seemed to be a bit of, well a lot of doubt introduced obviously because not everybody bought back into it. But I guess we can only really look at that in retrospect. At the time, it was all such a crazy time that I don't think anybody really knew exactly what the fallout from that was going to be. So the key thing was that you still ended up with, or you say, 185 orders, early achiever orders at that point.
    14:06
    And then you were, well, basically you started building the games, during the factory tour, showing people the games being built. Yes. I was fortunate to be on one of them. I know Jonathan was on at least one of them, if not both of them. Yeah, and just for those not completely familiar with the story, what Dutch Memo did was they, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but they started looking for a contract manufacturer that could manufacture the game, assemble the game, and basically do all the hard labor, if you want to call it that, assembly line and that kind of stuff. And I think they were talking to several parties, and eventually they chose a company called ARA, or A-R-A.
    15:00
    And, well, let's take it up from there. Let's take it up from there. yeah because you were now talking about the factory tours but they were much later I mean when we started talking to ARA it was that was even before I think right after Expo 2013 already that was when we you know teased the game we had some plans to build the game but then we were still trying to figure out what company to partner up with to build the game So that was eventually ARA. I think we signed our first contract or something like that early 2014. And then, of course, they were very enthusiastic about it. And then we started building prototypes, showing them at Expo. It was really exciting times because I think everything, you know, was last minute. Like every good project. And, yeah, of course. So yeah, I think the first factory tour Martin, correct me if I'm wrong, was in 2015?
    16:13
    I have February 2016 Ah, February 2016 Okay, and then another one in June or something That's right Yeah, okay Yeah, you got it Those first games, the ones that were at the launch at Lebowski's Were they built by ARA, or were they hand-built, and sort of like the sample games to show how ARA should build them?
    16:42
    They were prototypes built by ARA Amthas herself, but at ARAs, and they were, how do you say it? We call them the primal prototypes. Right, yeah. and they were just more to I think see how the whole geometry of the game would work and after that if it would work and they worked we would process them and you know do some tweaks and build a real production model from that because I don't know if you've ever seen the underside of the primal prototype but it was really cable hell. It was not pretty. Yeah, it was not pretty.
    17:35
    Yeah, the top was, but the bottom wasn't. Yeah. Okay, so you started building these. When we went there in February, you were kind of just about to start building them. And as I say, they had a production schedule ramping up, starting slowly with three machines a week and then up to five, and then the plan of doing ten a week by the end of May. Right. If I may interject here, it might be helpful for our listeners to understand that at ARA, ARA or A-R-A, they assemble the games, but they are also for some part a supplier of parts in the sense that all the PCBs that went under the playfield and possibly also in the headbox, correct me if I'm wrong, Barry, as well as the sheet metal used in the game and also the metal parts to build the bowling alley were all manufactured at ARA as well.
    18:46
    Yes, correct. The PCBs and sheet metal parts were manufactured by ARA. and there are no PCBs from ARA in the back box, by the way, but that's just a little detail. Okay. So, yes, that's correct. Yes.
    19:02
    Yes. Right. So, getting back to this, you had a certain number of games which you were able to ship to early achievers at that point. They were the first. That was who you were building the games for initially. Okay. You'd taken deposits from them, or in some cases, I guess, full payment, as games became due,
    19:27
    or payment became due on these games, and you shipped those games. How many games went out to early achievers in total, do you know?
    19:37
    Fifty-five. Okay, that's good. And so 55, that takes us up to, I guess, to after the second factory tour in June 2016, when the first problems appeared with, well, basically with the contract you had with ARA.
    20:02
    Yes, correct. I don't know exactly what you want to, what the question is, But, yeah, the problem started around that time. Well, at the second factory tour, I know some early achievers were present that were expecting or hoping to be able to pick up their game and unfortunately got to hear, sorry, you can't take your game because of a problem with one of the boards under the playfield. Would you like to take it up from there, Mary?
    20:40
    Yeah, there was one guy from England Who came over to pick up his game And it was very unfortunate timing That I think in the week before the factory tour We had, you know, there was a start of the fallout with ARA So the timing wasn't that good for the factory tour But, yeah, we still thought, well, we will, you know, we will manage to come up with a plan with ARA. And we discussed with ARA as well to cancel the factory tour and just, you know, have it and work things out in the weeks after that. And that was agreed upon by ARA and us. so but they told us that no game could leave the factory unless we had an agreement and then that's why we how do you say it that's why we decided to think of a reason why people couldn't pick up their games that guy it was only one person One customer, yeah. Yeah.
    21:57
    You know, just to add to that, it's just, you know, we thought at that point we will only have like a delay of maybe a week, two weeks, because we were sure we could figure stuff out with ARA. Okay. Can you tell us about the, give us some background info on what caused the issue between ARA and Dutch Pinball?
    22:24
    Yeah, simple. I mean, what was the problem that arose, so to speak? Yeah, simple. Money. Lack of it, or because that's... Well, most problems, of course, start with money.
    22:42
    And in this case, it was, I think, it mostly had to do with pricing of the game. You know, the price we were paying ARA.
    22:59
    Right. Of course, we had deals in place. We had agreements in place. and eventually it turned out that the game was more expensive than everybody expected, actually. And, well, you can understand that gives problems, that generates problems.
    23:19
    Right. So at that point, of the 55 machines that were shipped, were they all fully paid for all those by that point? Or were they still owed money?
    23:34
    Interesting question I have to It's also something My memory doesn't I think they They started selling Invoice way after First games were shipped Right I'm just wondering Whether their reluctance to release these games Was because they were the ones that they built Was because They hadn't been paid in full for the ones That they had already shipped no of course we we paid a lot of money to them for r&d so everything was okay i mean uh i think at that point we were still working very positively together and everything was good and also you know the the people involved at ara in the management and and the director they all thought it would work out in the end that was you know something they would say every time compute you know it all will work out.
    24:29
    And, well, when they, of course, after they shipped the first games, I think they really started to do the math on, you know, all the invoices and all the hours and everything that was needed to build games. And I think they had quite a shock to see that it was much more expensive than they expected, than we expected, of course. And did that have to do with materials being more expensive, or was it that the time needed to build a machine was longer than they estimated?
    25:08
    Yeah, I think a little bit of both, but probably parts, yeah. it's kind of surprising because they are always been sort of promoted as a very experienced contract manufacturer who they do this kind of stuff day in day out for various customers you know they know what they're doing they can cost it all up and they find out that actually it ended up costing them a lot more than they expected sounds a bit that sounds surprising that they hadn't kind of done their maths on this and worked out what it would cost them to build the game. Yeah, that's something we, of course, said many times before, that they are an experienced company. I think they have 60 or 80 years history.
    25:56
    But like some wise man once said, making pinball is hard. And even if you have a company with many years of experience, it still is very, very hard. Yes, harder than anybody thinks. Yes, it is. And harder means more expensive in most cases. Yes, and I think when you talk to people about building pinball machines, everybody's always, you know, making a pinball, how hard can it be? But I think when you really dive into all the details and you show people the bottom side of the play field and the internals of a pinball game, they slowly start to understand that building a pinball machine is hard. You know, with all the different materials, you have your wooden playfield with plastics and then metal parts, and especially the wood is always a little bit different. You have some margins and stuff like that. And it's also really a very time-consuming production. I mean, you have to do literally everything by hand.
    27:10
    Yeah, sure. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. So, what was it they actually, I mean, the figure that's been mentioned many times, I think, is they wanted another 1,000 euros per game. Yes. From you. and you were obviously, well you as in Dutch Pimble, were reluctant to pay that as you had a contract with them for a certain price and they presumably just wouldn't budge and said no you've got to pay the money or we're not building any more games and you can't have the ones that we've done. Is that correct? Is that kind of a brief summary of the speech?
    27:57
    Yeah, I mean, I know that number is out there. And, of course, yeah, they wanted more money for building the games. Well, that number came from Dutch pinball. Yeah, okay.
    28:11
    Yeah, okay, okay. Well, yeah. In several seminars. Oh, yeah, well, yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah. Okay, okay. So yeah, it was around 1,000 euros more than agreed upon.
    28:28
    Yeah, what can I say about it? Well, the way I understood it, there were actually two price increments.
    28:42
    First, it was like 1,000. And I do recall some sort of story that first Dutch Pumbo went along, and then Ara tried to crank up the price even more. And that's when you guys said, like, no, this got to stop.
    28:57
    Yeah, I think in the first calculations, we came up to a price. And I think the first official agreed upon a number which was higher than the first calculations. But it was okay for us to work with. And eventually, after the first games were delivered already, they came with a new price.
    29:23
    And still we wanted to accept it, but only this time we said, well, we can accept the higher price. It's still okay for us because this is just how much we want these games to go out.
    29:40
    But we only accept this new price if you're going to deliver by the end of the year. So that was like the first time we ever had something like a foot in the door. Yeah. Yeah, put some leverage, put some pressure on them. And I think when they started sending invoices it was already clear to us that they would never could met the deadline we put on them So then we asked well yeah start crediting your invoices and then you change it to the old price and that never happened. Right, so So, I think we're talking about now 2017 or somewhere in that period of time. Because I think the deadline was that all games were supposed to be built before the end of 2017, if I'm not mistaken.
    30:49
    I think it was before the end of 2016. Yes, okay. so that would obviously for ARA mean that they would probably have to put more people on the assembly of LeBick Lebowski but that never happened because if you want to speed up the process you put more people to it so it goes quicker at least that's how I look at it yes of course more people can do more labor but you also have to you know, source all the parts in time and yeah, but I mean if you just scale up from 10 to 20 people, you also have to have the parts for it to do so Right, sure When this I said it all came to a head with the I ran about the time of the factory, the second factory tour in June 2016. At that point were our, because I was looking at pictures of that and there seemed to be like no building going on anymore of games during the tour. There were lots of parts all around but I didn't actually see anybody manufacturing any games, no, assembling anything. So at that point had, well I guess had production stopped then, had the games which they built which couldn't be picked up were those the last ones that had been built up until now I suppose I honestly have to say that I don't know I think they still started building after that I think ARA also thought we would work our problems out and then we could just continue building games so I just don't know exactly ok so I guess that takes us through to the end of the year then when actually let me just ask you this question because it's something that somebody has asked me that they wanted to ask you when you said that there was a problem with the board and that's why the game couldn't be released and obviously that wasn't actually the truth at that point did you and you said just now that you didn't think it was going to be a big issue You thought you sought it all out and nobody would know any more about it. Do you regret having said that?
    33:30
    Yeah, sorry, I'm laughing, but it's funny, of course. I'm sure you've been asked it a few times. Yeah, yeah, okay, next. No, red card, I don't answer this one. I will answer it, no problem. Yeah, of course I regret it. I mean, I think I know some people think we're liars and try to con people and our Ponzi scheme or whatever you call it. But, of course, I regret that stupid excuse. Excuse, yes, excuse. It's all you and it'll chime. Yes, exactly. Like I said, we had some problem, but I thought, yeah, well, okay, We had more problems in the past. We will fix it, you know. That's always, I think, every problem can be fixed. And I'm normally, as you might know, pretty positive about stuff. So I thought, well, come on. This is going to be, you know, negotiations for a week, maybe two weeks, and then we can start again. And then nobody will never ask about that again. And, of course, when it took longer, well, people started emailing ARA about it. that's when, of course, people found out that there wasn't a problem with the board. But it was just some stupid excuse we thought to win some time. Yeah, sorry. No, no. I regret it, but, yeah. Sure. I understand.
    35:04
    So, obviously, things have become a bit mired by the end of the year, and it didn't look like you were going to come to an agreement with ARA any time soon. so that's when you started looking for an alternative contract manufacturer and you found Zytec in China and started working with them.
    35:31
    Do you want to tell us about at what point you decided we've got to move on, we've got to find somebody else to build these games and you kind of almost gave up on working with ARA or at least used that as leverage to try and come to a deal with them.
    35:50
    With ARA? Yeah. Oh, no, we didn't use it as leverage to come up with a deal with ARA. We just thought at that point that we were stuck with ARA, and we did, of course, we tried numerous times to negotiate again with them. It just didn't work out, and that's when we decided, well, there might be an option to see if we can build them somewhere else. So you've identified Zytec as being a potential contract manufacturing partner and you went out to China to work with them in setting up a, or start setting up a production facility out there. Correct. How did that go?
    36:39
    Yes, it was my first time in China. how did that go yeah so first I think I was contacted more like incidental by SciTech and it was you know right at the time that we thought this is never going to happen with ARA so well maybe they are the new guys who can do this for us and of course like everything in the beginning it started all like you know fun and games and I went there for two weeks I think after of course processing the material quotes and stuff like that and to see whether we could build a first prototype we did and then let me Let me think about it. I think, yeah, I think after that we had a Cytac game and an ARA game at TPO Expo, like you mentioned earlier. Yep, in Eidhoven. And they seemed both to be, well, almost identical in terms of build quality as far as a player could see. I don't know what was the difference underneath the playfield or in the back box, but they both played very well. it seemed to be a at that point it seemed to be a viable means of moving into production or returning to production of the game but it didn't happen no it didn't happen I think it was mostly because at the time we started with Scitech there was no we were not I say that subpoenaed by the ARA yet so that actually happened during our startup phase with Scitech.
    38:40
    So that obviously became a problem when ARA dropped a lawsuit. I say, no, no, drop it. You know, file this or file the lawsuit. And I think the reason that it didn't go through with Scitech was mostly financial.
    39:06
    Right. The cost of starting up and the free money or the capital that you had available in order to start manufacturing. Exactly. The investments involved in that, yes. And because of the loss, it was, of course, complicated. Sure. So tell us about this lawsuit. What were ARA claiming? that you owed them money for parts and production, or was it that simple? Yeah, that simple. Yeah, basically just money.
    39:40
    Right, okay. Right, because at that point, for ARA, they still had a bunch of unpaid invoices, which they'd like to be paid for.
    39:52
    Or is that too simplistic? Well, yeah, that's part of it, yeah, of course. There were unpaid invoices There were, you know, a lot of parts sitting in their warehouse And, well, that's about it So, that situation kind of stagnated for, well, over a year, I guess Until, what, the beginning of this year, in reality when things started to sort of reach some kind of a conclusion or the, I suppose it went to court and a judge started to sort of tell you guys to bash your heads together and come up with a solution. Exactly, I think, yeah. Yeah, or the judge would rule and neither of you would want that. Yes, I think the hearing in the court was on centre class. December 5th, which is a Dutch holiday, of course. Yeah. I'm not going to discussion of that. Right. And then we're already in, we're talking December 5th, 2018. Yes. Correct.
    41:13
    Yeah, that's something I learned from this project, that as soon as there are legal battles, it's going to take a lot of time, a lot of money.
    41:23
    Right. So you couldn't build any more games at that point because you hadn't got a manufacturing partner and ARA. ARA knew you were in a legal dispute, so they weren't going to be building any games.
    41:37
    You were presumably, I say presumably, but what you said, you were confident of your case here in that you had a contract with ARA to build the games at a price, maybe not at a timescale, because I guess they didn't sign that deal to get it done by the end of 2016.
    42:04
    So you thought that your contract with ARA was pretty solid and that you'd be successful in any legal battle. Is that a reasonable summation of your position?
    42:22
    Yes, yes, that's correct. I think we had a strong case. I mean, of course, it's always, you know, if there's a fight, there's always two stories. And, of course, you know, we have our story and we think our story is the correct one.
    42:38
    What did I want to say about that? well I'm not sure whether I can mention this but I know that you prepared a lot of documentation for the court case to show to a judge of what had happened prior to that obviously there's a lot of time that involves in making all that documentation etc yeah exactly that's what I wanted to say I mean there was you know not just the contract but there were of course obviously so many emails and agreements and stuff that we talked about on how on planning and pricing and stuff like that it was not only the contract that we put in our you know how you would say it my defense yes Yeah.
    43:39
    But, yeah, well, eventually it turned out it wasn't enough. Being right and getting right is a different thing.
    43:49
    But, yeah, I mean, it's what the judge rules, and it's something you cannot do something about it, or you have to go into an appeal. Right. Into an appeal. Now, sorry for interrupting, So we're jumping very quickly from the start of this court case to the judge ruling. But the way I understood it, that took actually quite some time. There was quite some time in between where the judge on multiple occasions said, well, you guys better try to figure it out yourself before I do a ruling. Can you tell a little bit about that? because it might be very difficult for people to understand why it took so long and why a judge would say that. Obviously, you can't speak for the judge, but...
    44:37
    Well, it's very complex for me as well. So, I mean, up until this court case with ARA, I've never ever experienced something like it, so I didn't know what to expect. and I always was under the impression that, you know, when you go to a court case, you do your story and there will be a decision, but that it would take, I don't know, like three, four, maybe five months until there was a decision and it was something completely new for me as well. Of course, when we thought she would do, it was a female judge, she would do a ruling, she obviously told us that we should go back together and speak to each other because she thought that we were obligated to each other to finish this project.
    45:27
    And, of course, at that point, we still wanted a solution. I mean, so we tried, we talked to them, but at that point, it was clear that they didn't want to build games anymore.
    45:43
    Right. Okay. Can we just put this in context for a minute? because you're talking about how much time all this is taking up and resources as well. Obviously, dealing with all these things isn't going to be cheap either. Hold on, Martin.
    46:01
    We love Barry. Oh, I thought you were going to say Gary was calling. No, no, no, no, no. No, Barry left.
    46:14
    Sorry. Ah, there you are. Yeah, sorry. That's all right. My TEDx jumped on me and my phone dropped. That's perfectly allowed.
    46:27
    Let me just pick up where I was. I think it's important we put this in context because dealing with all this, you've already explained how much resources, how much time and money it takes to put together your defense and to go through the whole court and legal proceedings. Was this your full-time job or did you have an employment elsewhere or self-employed or was Dutch Pinball your life at that point?
    47:05
    Well, Dutch Pinball was my life when we were still producing games with ARA. I've always been self-employed for the past 15 years or so. Of course, when the problem started with ARA, we stopped collecting money from Dutch Pinball, and we had other resources to make a living.
    47:33
    Right, okay. So you were working elsewhere, freelance or self-employed? Self-employed, yes. Yeah, right, okay. so this was in addition to your employment your self-employment as well having to deal with all this and family commitments yeah of course it's a hard time I had to switch back to what I was doing before I did pinball so you get to when was this March when the judge ruled and And as you said, it went in favor of ARA.
    48:18
    What was the nature? Was there nothing in the ruling for you? It was basically, you've got to pay these guys?
    48:27
    That was basically the very short version of it. I think judges and legal people normally take a lot of time and a lot of pages of text to say something very simple. I think the whole verdict was like seven pages or something, but I think 90% of it was just, you know, legal gibberish that is just needed when you do a verdict.
    48:56
    But basically it was, yeah, we were in favor of ARA. And it was totally in favor. There was nothing, didn't say, you know, ARA, you anything, or they need to give you anything. It was all one-sided. It was all one-sided, yeah. Right. Okay. That must have been quite a surprise. I was going to say you were very confirmed or you firmly believed that you had a very solid case.
    49:29
    Yeah, I mean, of course. I was really shocked when my attorney called me and told me this was the verdict.
    49:41
    I was like, wow, is that the only thing? It's just, you know, 100% ARA, 0% Dutch pinball. And, yeah, basically it was like that. Yeah, okay. And was there any reasoning and hindsight that this could have been, have a different outcome if the method that the court was rooting on was formulated differently or in different words, that the wording would be different in order to, or was there no way to turn this around?
    50:28
    Yeah, it's hard to say. I mean, I thought, you know, our defense on paper was really good. But it's also a bit more complicated than, you know, if one party says, well, they owe me money, and the other party says, yeah, that might be true, But, and then there's a complex story.
    50:50
    It's, I think it all has to do with how you interpret our story. Wow, yeah, that's called context, and that's a context to do, yeah. So, but in the end it turns out basically the judge ruled like, okay, you guys owe these, you owe them money, they want that money, you have to pay them. That's a very long story short. Yes. And of course you haven't got the money to pay them what's been decided in their favour So you have to either go into bankruptcy and shut everything down Or come to an agreement So what was your... Obviously you don't want to go into bankruptcy But what was the process, what was the thinking about what you might be able to work out such that you can come out with, both sides can come out with something.
    51:49
    Yeah, exactly. I mean, that was, of course, a real setback for me and for Jaap, for the company. And it was also right at the time that Jaap got ill and ill again. And so that was, you know, especially hard at that point. and I think I have to think about I don't know how the time exactly goes but I think it was right after no no right at the time of the verdict Jaap decided to leave the company because of the illness and he just didn't want to spend time on all of this And some people might think that might be the easy way out because, you know, leave the company, you have a verdict. But that's not the point because if a company gets bankrupt, there will be some attorney who's taking over the business, and they will see if there is bad management. And if you had bad management, they will come after you even if you have left the company. So there would be no risk for me that, yeah, we lose the company or something. And, of course, all of our bank accounts and all statements and all of the paperwork you need to get done if you are a company in Holland was in perfect order. So we were not afraid that if we would go bankrupt because of the verdict that they would come after us personally. Right. But when you heard the ruling, did you think, was your initial reaction, well, that's it then? that's the end? Or were you still confident you could come to some kind of agreement?
    53:41
    That was difficult because, and I didn't know that either, because at the point the verdict was there, they could have, or you say that... They could have executed the verdict and enforced the ruling and demanded the full sum. The full sum, yes. And if they would have done that at the exact same time, that would inevitably have led to our bankruptcy. No doubt about it.
    54:15
    So, I was always tempted to ask, why do you think they didn't do that? Why they didn't do that immediately? Yeah, that's a good question. That's something my attorney also didn't know either. I think at that point I might have sent an email to the person involved at ARA, who was handling the case, that I still want to come to some kind of agreement, even now, especially now, when they obviously have won the court case.
    54:55
    If I may say something, if I recall correctly, you could still appeal against the court ruling. So that might also be an explanation why ARA didn't execute the or insist on you guys paying, because if you still appeal, then you don't have to pay. Yeah, you have to.
    55:19
    That's something people don't know. But I can tell you by experience that once you have a verdict, which is immediately executable. You can execute the agreement and we have to pay. And if you do an appeal, it's going to be something different, but then you have to pay. And if you go bankrupt in the meantime and you can't do the appeal anymore, well, that's bad luck.
    55:44
    I mean, how much of this do you think is just business? you know it's um it's what what any company who were facing making potentially making a loss or not getting the same income on their manufacturing that they're expecting and and how much do you think it's uh maybe like personality led because there have been some changes of management in in ara um since the start of the disagreement and towards the end you're able to come to some kind of agreement with, I assume, a different group of people who you were dealing with at the start.
    56:26
    Yeah, and in the whole court case, I wasn't dealing with people from ARA, but I was dealing with the people in a holding group of ARA, yeah, above them.
    56:38
    Were they the same people all the way through then, or did they change as well? Because I know the management of ARA changed. The people who were first demanding the extra money weren't there for that much longer.
    56:55
    Yeah, I think one guy left the company. That one guy was the CEO. Yeah. Okay, okay. He was the CEO, but still. Not like someone on the assembly line who decided to go somewhere else. No, all I'm getting at was, was it him or somebody else who was just saying, you know, we've got to charge more money and we're not going to take no for an answer, or was that kind of like just their policy anyway? It wouldn't have mattered who was in charge.
    57:30
    I don't know. I don't know any details about that. I don't know why they decided to do so, but eventually the whole, when the court case started, It was not the people from ARA, but from the holding.
    57:46
    Right, okay. So it was kind of all in above their heads. Right. Speaking of the holding, and I might be jumping a little bit backwards now in the sense that at some point you tried to negotiate with ARA or the people from that holding that had taken over after the CAO had left. And there was a situation where there was a proposition, if I'm recalling it correctly, where the holding company that owns ARA was interested in a 51% ownership of Dutch Pinball. in the end you decided not to act on that or sell the company basically is there anything you want to say about that? do you recall anything about that? well I recall everything about that but it's not something I mean yeah we had some discussions about financing and they wanted to finance but they always take part of the company and obviously we didn't want that and I still don't want that and so that were the negotiations that also ended without a good end right, ok ok, let's just do a bit of a recap at this point as to where we are so the drawing's been handed out you have shipped 55 early achieving machines you owe another probably 130 or so to people who have paid in part or in full. In the factory there are 40 machines, 40 complete machines in boxes and a whole bunch of parts to make 100 or more other games.
    59:52
    So that's what the stakes are at this point. That's what you're looking at, and that's the basis on which you are able to come to an agreement with ARA and start to, basically, to get all that stuff out of the factory in exchange for some kind of payment to ARA.
    60:15
    The details of which I don suppose you want to furnish us with Well yeah exactly Well I think yes about a couple of months ago you know, there was all this negativity we already talked about for about an hour now, I think.
    60:34
    And we lost the court case. Ja was leaving the company. I think at that point, I thought, well, this is not going to happen anymore. I'm normally a very positive guy, and I always see solutions, but I think I reached a point where the end of my rope or something, I call it. And I had prepared a very quite long newsletter, and I had everything prepared to take down the websites and social media pages and stuff like that. I think it was a Friday.
    61:19
    And I was literally about to press enter on that email. And then I decided to step away for a few minutes to think about this. and I thought to myself well I know myself you know and I thought well if I look back to this in two or three years maybe five years I will never I say it be able to live with yourself yeah exactly something like that be able to live more myself if I didn't do just you know one more stupid thing One last shot. One last shot, yes. So I thought, well, screw it.
    62:14
    And I'm going to call the person involved myself. No attorneys. No, no, no. I don't have to discuss with Jaap. I don't have to discuss with anyone. I'm just going to call him.
    62:26
    The person at the holding company. Yes, exactly. Yes, right. And it was actually pretty funny because I called him. He didn't pick up.
    62:36
    And, I don't know, a half hour later, he called me back. And he thought, he didn't know it was me he was calling because he didn't have my number in his phone.
    62:48
    So I said, yeah, yeah, it's Barry from Dutch Pinball, you know. He said, oh, yeah, okay, okay. So, well, I basically told him that I want to come to an agreement. and it was the first time that I think he ever, so the first time they wanted to discuss it. So I made him an offer directly on the phone and he said, okay, I'm going to call my associates and I'm going to call you back later this day.
    63:22
    So later that day, obviously I didn't send a newsletter at that point. he called back, he called me back, and he said they all agreed on my offer.
    63:41
    And that was, like, I think one of the most bizarre moments in the last three years, I guess. Now, that raises a whole bunch of questions, really. I mean, you guys hadn't spoken before this, or had you?
    64:02
    No, I think that was after the hearing in the IUSA, in the court room. Right. After that, of course, we did have some discussions, but that didn't lead to something. And I think that was the first time in months that I have spoken to him directly. And I think it was the first time I spoke to him on the phone Because he didn't have my number in it still So all the previous discussions Have been between lawyers Then, had it? Yeah, mostly, yeah Right, okay So You must have Must have been Amazed that it was that easy It was Yeah, like I said It was a complete shock that they actually agreed on it If you don't mind me asking, I perfectly understand if you don't want to mention any financial numbers, but what makes me wonder is the amount of money that you offered, Ara, Was it anywhere closer to what you were owed, or was it way off with all the inventory and so on?
    65:21
    Well, I don't want to discuss details on the merits of money, but I said I was shocked, didn't I? Okay. Well, I mean, the obvious question there is, how did you come up with this number that you offered? And did you at that point, because you weren't expecting them to accept it, but at that point, did you actually have a means to pay that? Or do you have a plan? Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, you know, I mean, of course, I was thinking about plans for months. You know, what if we do this? What if we do this? What if we do that? And that's not something, you know. So, yes, of course, I did have a plan, and of course I thought about it a lot.
    66:09
    And now was the time that I just had to communicate it with them. I don't know why. I mean, it was just a last shot.
    66:22
    I was thinking, what kind of plan was it? Well, you have nothing to lose, so you might as well give it a shot. Yeah, actually, nothing to lose. Yeah, of course, I had a lot to lose, but nothing to lose in a business way, because if we would have gone bankrupt, that would have meant that Trimble would be gone, but that wouldn't affect me personally as much as some people might think. I mean, you're protected by Dutch law.
    66:49
    And, of course, it would suck. I mean, a bankruptcy wouldn't be fun, you know, dealing with all kinds of people you don't want to deal with, but it would be okay for me. But, of course, in the weeks prior to this telephone call, of course, I had tons of plans, but I never thought one of them could actually work.
    67:12
    So when I called him, I thought, well, okay, I'm going to take the best plan I figured out in my head the last couple of weeks, and I'm going to present it to him.
    67:22
    Okay. So how detailed was that plan as regards how you were going to raise the money, what you were going to do with the machines, what you were going to do with the parts? Was that all part of the initial plan, or was it just literally, we'll pay you this, and we'll get all the machines that you have, all the parts, we'll ship them out, and we'll call it quits?
    67:47
    Yeah, basically, yeah. Of course, there are a lot more details in the back of my head, But for them, it was just, you know, this is my offer. Take it or leave it. Well, for the machines and the parts, and that's it. Then anything after that, we can work out later. Yes, yes. So basically, I give you this. And with that, I get all the stuff that's Dutch Pimple related from you. The court case is off the table, obviously. And after that, we, you know. And the thing that springs to mind when we're talking about court cases and settlements is a huge amount of legal fees involved in sorting all this out, because it's been going on for almost two years by this point, and to keep... I know there haven't necessarily been that many court hearings, but I'm sure there have been plenty of letters backwards and forwards between both parties. so legal fees can often eat up or dwarf the actual cash amount of any deal was that a problem here or was that basically each side would deal with their own it's just a one-off payment and you pay your legal fees we pay our legal fees and that's it yeah basically I think their counter offer I don't think I mean I know Of course, when I did the offer, they did a counter-offer where they said, yeah, we want our legal fees paid. So they added that to the amount.
    69:24
    But I can tell you, legal fees in Holland are, I mean, they are high, but they're not as high as I think they are in other parts of the world. Right. Okay. So if we are, correct me if I'm wrong, but filling in some of the blanks and trying to look at this from the point of view from ARA,
    69:47
    you're about to throw in the towel, so to speak, and basically either they can execute the verdict and try to collect the money, causing a bankruptcy, but that would also cause a problem for ARA in the sense that So Aira still, in case of a bankruptcy, Aira would still be stuck with a bunch of games and a ton of parts that they have no use for. So would that be why you think that they eventually figured like, if he takes all that stuff away from us, that's no longer a problem of us. He can figure it out. We take this and let's move on. Or were there other reasons involved, as far as you know?
    70:43
    Well, I can't speak for ARA, but I think it might have something to do with that, yes. But I don't know. I think they also are very relieved that we now finally have an agreement. and actually they are, when I deal with them now, you know, for picking up the parts and picking up the games and stuff like that, they are really forthcoming. So we're now at the point that you and Ara agreed on a settlement, so to speak, and at that point you have to figure out, okay, I have to come up with a sum of money in order to make this work because if you don't, then the deal is still off the table. Yeah.
    71:31
    So, obviously, this is very recent history, but can you talk us through what you figured, like, okay, how can we, or you in this case, come up with the money that is agreed on and what are the plans to move forward? Because besides that there were 40 games at ARA, there's also a ton of parts enabling you to build games. And a lot of people are curious, like, okay, so what will be the next steps? and will you be able to build games or will you look for another contract manufacturer? And what are your plans?
    72:27
    Okay. Well, yes, this is all very recent, so I have a good knowledge of this, of course. Right. And I hope this turns out to be the positive part of the podcast.
    72:39
    Yeah, let's take that in small steps, first of all, shall we, about starting, first of all, with what you're going to do with the goods that you bought, which were, what, 40 pinball machines complete, a number of incomplete games? No, you tell us what it is that you actually got as part of the settlement.
    73:02
    Yes, yes, of course. Yeah, we got 40 almost complete games. I think there were, like, I don't know, 32 complete games that were tested by me. Yeah, back in the days at ARA, and they were completely boxed on their decision to go out. There were also, I think, eight games, about eight games, that were tested at ARA. That meant that they had done all the testing from a checklist we made back in the days. And that was the final step before our final testing. And final testing meant that Jaap or me would test the games. Right. So they had all the parts. in the game yeah yeah they were completely completely done right okay so 32 and eight right okay and besides that there were also uh some other almost complete games
    74:03
    and well of course we had a look at factory before we signed the new agreement for this deal and we had a look to see all the other stuff. And Jonathan was with me. Yes, I was there. Thank you for allowing me to come with you at that point.
    74:21
    And as Jonathan can attest, there were a lot of parts. Yeah, I think in total, with in meters I think we were looking at 7 by 32 meters so I'm not so good in inches and so on and I do math is not my my strong point but well once I buy three four feet so 21 feet by What was the other figure? 30 meters? Or 20?
    75:01
    7 by 32. So if we're talking square meters... 21 feet by 100 feet. Right, so there's 224 square meters.
    75:17
    So I have no idea how to multiply that into square feet, but... Sorry, what is this? This is parts laid out on the floor somewhere? No, this is part of the box shop. Crates of parts, boxes of parts stacked on top of each other. The games that were boxed up as well, as well as a few games that weren't in boxes or just empty cabinets. And that was all just in one part. And then there was another part in the factory where all the glass was stacked on pallets.
    76:01
    The wood to make cabinets wasn't even part of that. That was also in a different part. The rotisseries for the assembler line were also in a different area of the factory. And that was all part of the deal. So we're looking at what we estimated at the time, probably six or seven truckloads. Right. So, Barry, from my outsider perspective, this all seemed to happen very quickly once the judge's ruling really had taken place. Yeah. Did you then, and do you even now, know exactly what it is that's in that part inventory as regards what you need to build games? How much of a complete game is there in parts? Do you know that information yet, or are you still trying to get a grip on what it is that you've got? Well, I have a list. they did a account after everything went south or how you see it and so I have a list of those parts and well of course I could only briefly check it in the few times who were there in the last past months but from that I can do a guesstimate of how many games I can build from that yeah and I know back in the day that we place an order for 300 games. Now, roughly 90 or 100 are made.
    77:42
    And in some parts, they bought for all 300 games. Some parts were also bought lean, or how you want to say it, in batches of 20 or 30 or 50. and so at this point it's hard to say how much exactly I can make from the parts that are there but I think after we picked them up and we can do a really good count of the parts we can actually say how many games we can already make from the stock that we have now. Right, so let's go back to the point where the agreement was signed, and you'd visited the factory, you'd seen the games in boxes, you'd seen the parts.
    78:29
    The race was on to try and get things out of the factory as quickly as possible. Sorry to interrupt, but I guess the race was on to get the money before, because if they wouldn't be paid, I don't think anything would leave the factory at that point. Well, that's a good point, and we can, yeah, let's look at that. Were Ara very much of the opinion that you had to pay them up front before you could get anything out of the factory? That was the agreement. That was, okay. So you had to do a lot of fundraising in order to pay that.
    79:09
    Had you already got all this in mind? I know we were talking earlier about whether you had a plan when they surprised you and accepted your deal. did you have funding agreements or outline ideas in place of how you're going to do this well yeah like I said I thought about it a lot to what if what would be the what if scenario if they would agree with you know with a proposal for me so yeah I had thought about that and I had I contacted people even before about this. And once they agreed, well, I could basically, air quotes, just call them and say, okay, we have a deal. And I had some,
    79:59
    I raised the money with some investors and paid off an IRA. By the way, that went through a third-party account.
    80:12
    So that was also in the agreement I would pay the amount to a third party, and they will release money to ARA as soon as I have all the stuff back in my possession. Right, so ARA can't turn around and go, oh, we've got the money, but you're not taking the parts or the machines. Exactly, yes, yes.
    80:32
    And that was a contract drawn up by our attorneys, so. Yeah, but we know how much that can be worth. Yeah.
    80:42
    Yeah. Right, okay. So you were looking to raise money to pay off ARA, and this is around the time when Cointaker started offering these 4D games.
    81:04
    Is there anything you want to talk about that process, how that went? and obviously I can understand how it would make sense, but it only makes sense if you have a future plan, because obviously there's still about 100-something people waiting, early achievers waiting for a game.
    81:33
    Something needed to happen, that's for sure, I can understand, but these people are still waiting like, okay, it's very nice to see that the games that were ready are now moving to other people, but what about me? Yeah, totally understand that question.
    81:54
    Well, like I said, I had a plan. I thought about this a lot to figure out what to do as soon as there was a proposal that they would agree upon. and well luckily it happened and I got the money funded and of course I knew I had the 40 games which represent a certain amount of money so that was kind of the easy part of course the next part is okay now I have all this these parts I will have them soon and they will be transported this week and what's the plan of course I want to build games I want to build games for early achievers and to do so I think we have to find like a modus operandi to see how many games we have to sell to new people to fund to build the early achiever games and that's something we of course we have calculations of that but it's something that we have to work out in the next couple of weeks or months Now do you, when you were coming up with the plan to sell the 40 games and as I said that all happened very quickly or it certainly seemed to and they sold incredibly quickly through CoinTaker was any consideration given to offering them to early achievers first? Because I know a number of them have said to me if that had been offered to me at $12,500 I would have bought it would have meant I was in for 20,000 or 21,000 but I would have a game and if nothing else happened if Dutch Pinball couldn't go into building anything I'd have a very rare game which would probably be worth 20,000 or 21,000 so I wouldn't lose out whereas what actually happened of course was Cointaker just sold the whole lot in a matter of minutes and early achievers well, some early achievers may have got in there through Cointaker or not, but they weren't given any sort of preferential treatment. Do you think that would have been a good move on your part to, you know, because you are effectively selling games which they paid for, in the expectation they will get their games eventually, but it would have been a good publicity move, do you not think, to offer them to the early achievers first,
    84:28
    rather than it being like a kick in the teeth saying, well, you can't have your game, but you can buy it. I think some of them said we would have really gone for that. And why wasn't it done?
    84:41
    Well, I honestly didn't expect that people would do that. And the other thing was that it was on a pretty tight schedule to meeting a deadline for the payment, because there was a deadline. and this was I think the only option to do it as fast as we needed to do it because obviously if we would have been dealing with individuals instead of one party to buy all games, it would have taken a lot more time and effort to do so.
    85:20
    And I honestly didn't expect that I mean, it came to my head that that was an option. I just thought, no, that nobody would do that.
    85:34
    And, of course, yeah, well, I can say anything I want about it. It's not what happened, so. Right. Yeah. In hindsight, you might think, oh, that could have been a good idea, but at the time you didn't think of it. Yeah, then, okay. And from that, I mean, you can understand, I can understand the plan that you've got and how it could easily be seen as the only way that realistically you're going to get these games built and delivered to early achievers. but there has been a vociferous backlash against the sale of these machines, these 40 complete games, with people getting incredibly upset that their game is being sold to somebody else.
    86:26
    What can you say to them as you try and help them? Well, I'm sure they understand what your plan is, but to give them some kind of confidence that this is actually something that's going to lead to them getting their game.
    86:40
    Yeah, I know there is backlash. I haven't received it personally, but, of course, I don't read PennSite, but I get messages from other people who read it. So personally to me, there was, from all the emails I received in the past couple of months,
    86:57
    also from people who know what we were doing, I didn't get well stuff thrown at me as they were doing on the forums and yeah what can I say I mean let me say this I spoke to a lot of people who wanted to invest in Dutch Pinball because they think Dutch Pinball made an amazing pinball machine and And I didn't, I mean, there were people who were throwing, of course, millions at me to buy the company and to continue with us building the games. And almost every one of them told me we first go bankrupt.
    87:45
    We cut the EAs and then we start building games again without the legacy or however you want to call it. Yeah. And I said, no, I don't want to do that. I mean, I will do everything I can in my power to build Dutch Fimble up again,
    88:09
    build new games, build all the Achiever games, and finally deliver. Deliver. And it will take some time, and it's going to be much more complicated it and then the easy way out but i i promise something and if i promise something i want to keep my promise and i want to want to do the right thing and i know it's it's i mean maybe some people think i'm crazy and and people think it's it's not doable or whatever well okay that that's that's that's uh i mean that might be still be true i mean i don't know what's what the next months will do or what we what more problems we can get I don't think we can get into more problems than we already had and we will just start slowly producing games again in the next couple of months and slowly ramp up and this time we won't be using any contract manufacturer we're going to build a production facility ourselves and we're just going to start from there. Right, okay. Let's have a look at those plans in a little more detail because you haven't got the parts yet, have you?
    89:26
    No, I was there last Friday to prepare everything for shipment. You know, just to check everything was right on the pallet and just counting the pallets and stuff like that. And we have now planned for this week to do all the transport or at least a few. So where are you taking these? Do you have a storage facility? Do you have somewhere which is going to eventually be the place you plan to make games?
    89:57
    They're going for a storage facility really close to my home. Also the place where we did the 40 Games project.
    90:10
    And just today I agreed upon hiring, I say leasing or hiring a building. And I think it will be ready for us in two weeks because there is another company in there and they need a few weeks to get their stuff out Wait a minute So you forcing another company to move No they were very happy with me because they had a five lease And now they can get out of it. They're actually pretty happy that we wanted to hire that building because they wanted to move to a bigger place.
    90:51
    But, of course, they had stuff there, so they needed time to get everything out. Okay. Right. So, sorry, carry on. Okay, and so we are picking up the parts, and we are doing, we have a... Inventory account, I assume? Exactly, and we can do that at the place, at the warehouse where we're placing them first, and they are, like, right around the corner where our new place will be. So that's going to be pretty easy. I would guess you can't really develop your plans or any kind of a time scale on this until you know what it is you've got and what you need to order and what the lead times on those are. But if you haven't got, if you're missing parts and it's probably quite reasonable judging by the lean ordering process that you were saying that ARA use that they were ordering parts as they needed them, so there will be a number of them which are missing for building games in any quantity. You're saying order them in 20s or 30s at a time. Well, assume that... Oh, I assume the worst, and assume they haven't got any of them, and they've all been used up, because they used all the ones that they had, and they didn't order any more. then are you going to be able to order new parts to build games from parts manufacturers, from stockists? Will people work with you to do this? Yeah, yeah.
    92:31
    Well, that's a good question. And yes, people will work with me. In the last few weeks, I contacted almost every supplier we used in building those games. Most of them are local. And when I spoke to them, they were all really happy that we got started again. Because most of the suppliers for parts were found by me. Of course, ARA did some buying as well. But some of the really specific parts suppliers were found by me myself. And what about the parts that ARA made? Yeah, that's mostly sheet metal and PCB work, and I have a few alternatives for them, or even maybe ARA.
    93:25
    Really? You'd work with them again? As a parts supplier? I don't see why not. Okay. Yeah, it might be difficult to understand, but when I was with Barry at ARA, everybody in the factory was really happy to see Barry, and there was no animosity or anything. People were really friendly, and so if people are expecting that there is any, how do you call it, bad blood between Barry and the people on the floor at ARA, I didn't see any it was just a legal management issue it was nothing it had nothing to do with people that worked at ARA the people were reluctant to work on our products and they were really happy when they saw me again and also last week they were also very nice to me and they helped me and it was all it was like all the bad things never happened if you were contracted with them to supply parts you'd be dealing with management legal again wouldn't you yeah but that would be just parts that would be just super simple supplier buyer thing I mean that would be just like I need 10 aprons what are they going to cost and when are they ready no assembly no different stuff so but it's nothing that we have decided yet. It's just something that is on the table. I have other suppliers too. For PCBs, it's really easy. You can go everywhere.
    95:11
    And sheet metal, there are a lot of alternatives too, which I also talked to in the past years when we were looking for alternatives.
    95:19
    Sure. It wouldn't be unreasonable though to expect them to require a certain amount of payment up front for these products, or payment in advance for manufacturing them. You think?
    95:33
    Well, you know, I'm sure work gets around. It's fine. Maybe next year. I mean, you don't know what's missing. I guess I have to put that out there. So you don't know what the cost is going to be to produce enough parts to make complete games yet. I did a pretty good analysis of the list we had. And then there were some parts missing, which I was sure of they would be there. So last Friday we did a pretty good analysis of everything that was there, because now we really had the time.
    96:12
    Last time we were there to pick up the games and some other parts. We were just there for that, and it was also in the notification from ARA. So we didn't have any time to open up boxes and look at all the stuff. That's what we did on Friday. So now I have even more idea of what is there. And I did a quick analysis, and I think what I saw and what I've written down now makes me very happy. I think the first games won't be a problem. I think it's really feasible that we're just buying some parts for the first, I don't know, 25, 15 games. It's not that bad Right, okay So we've got two other very important strands The second one we're coming to in a minute Which is actually how you're going to build games But as part of this plan I have to keep coming back to the early achievers And the 130 machines which are still owed and how many machines do you have to build? Because I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong here, that the first machines you're going to build, you're going to sell. You're not going to be in a position to give those to early achievers because you need to get up to speed, you need to get the manufacturing going, you need to be ordering parts, you need to start, I don't know, you might need to start paying back your investors at some point. So there's cash flow that needs to be happening. before you can start producing games that don't bring you in any money.
    97:54
    What's your plan? What's your time scale? Well, not time scale. What's your production number where you think you will be able to, A, start and, B, complete the pre-orders from the early achievers?
    98:14
    Yeah, I'm still working on the detailed calculation on that, of course. I did some estimations and some Excel work on that.
    98:24
    And so I think the sweet spot is going to be somewhere between 400 or 500 games. 400 or 500 games, by which time all the early achievers will have their machines?
    98:37
    Yes, I think it's going to be somewhere in that area. Right. So we're looking at around about one early achievement machine for every two retail machines, shall we say. So you'll sell two and one will be an early achievement machine, but not in that order.
    99:00
    Right, yes. So in the beginning, of course, we have to use a lower ratio for that. Yes. And while we progress, we have to scale up. And how exactly that will turn out, I don't know yet. I mean, and that's something we also just, you know, I mean, we can make all the calculations we want in the end, you know, how things like that go. I think for now, I think the most important thing is that we just start building.
    99:30
    And do you think there's a market for 500 more Lebowskis? Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah? Even at $12,500? Well, those sold out in a few minutes, you told me so. Yeah, but there's a good reason for that, though, because people thought they might be the only chance they ever get to own one. Yeah, okay, okay. But, yeah, I think there is, yeah.
    99:57
    Okay, so let's move on to how you plan to build these. Okay, you've identified a facility. You've got a bunch of parts to build the first. well you got most of the bunch of parts of the first 100 games is that a reasonable number of how many near complete sets of machine parts you have I honestly at this point I can't give I don't want to give any number on that some parts are for 200 games some parts for 20 some parts for 50 I really have to do a better analysis before I can give an actual number because I don't want to, you know... Create expectations. Yeah, create expectations that can be met, yes. Okay, but you've got a number of parts, you've got a number of games, and you order the parts that you don't have. How are you going to build these games?
    100:56
    Are you going to employ people to build these games? Are you going to build them all yourself? Yeah, I'm going to build them all myself. I will be done in 2031. Yeah.
    101:07
    I thought I didn't ask you for a time scale. No, I'm not going to give it a planning yet. As soon as we can say anything about planning and dates when games will be released, I will. But first we will start small.
    101:26
    I will be working on it myself in the beginning. also you know just to check if everything is going well you know and if the assembly instructions are correct and maybe you know to adjust them so the first games will be built by me and Gus he's there as well who else is there? Hughes oh ok Gus my dear friend and colleague and also one of the only persons besides me who knows every little screw and detail of the game and also in the beginning we will have some help from some people who want to help so that's nice as well and we will slowly ramp up and hire people and slowly start a new business restart business Yeah. But one of the things I keep hearing is, or keep thinking about all the things you're saying is, this is going to cost money. It's going to cost money to get a factory. It's going to get money to transport everything. It's going to cost money to build the games. You've got to tool everything up.
    102:45
    You might have rotisseries, but you've got to have all the tools there. You've got to employ people eventually.
    102:52
    You've got to, well, things don't go perfectly. You know, things go wrong. Things have to be sent back. there might be people sitting around for a long time waiting for parts to arrive. All this is money. Are you, or can you assure people who are listening to this that the funding is there in order to see this project through?
    103:14
    Yes, yes, the funding is there to see this project through. But I can guarantee anything, of course. But the plans that are in place now, I'm sure that we can pull it off.
    103:35
    Okay, I don't think I have any more questions. There's a potential end point. Actually, I thought it was a very interesting pause. yeah it was a very interesting pause you probably expected me to say more but yeah what can I say I mean I've been thinking about this for years I mean there were literally points in the past year or month that it was never going to happen again and I know people are waiting for ages to get games some people might still be waiting for ages by your estimation that's just a that was of course ok let me explain it was a joke no I think the best what my target is for finishing all the early achiever games is before the end of next year wow that's optimistic Yeah, well He said four to five hundred games So that's going to be About In terms of quick maths That's going to be about Five or six a week Is that right? Yeah, on average, yeah Yeah, probably more than that actually It was ten a week, it'd be five hundred in a year Assuming no holidays And so yeah probably run it about eight, an average of eight machines a week over that timescale. Which is, I mean, that's getting on for the maximum that ARA thought they were going to be able to build, that 10. Yeah, I think it's going to be much faster.
    105:33
    Yeah, okay. And what about things like, you know, service and support for these games? How's that going to be handled? who's going to be able to do that and spare parts and all the other boring stuff that has to happen once you've shipped a game yeah well that's of course something we also thought about and of course we need extra parts for support and stuff like that but like I said we're going to start slowly I'm not going to hire 20 people tomorrow and start producing 30 games a week so we're going to start slowly we're going to build up everything like that of course I still do some support already but that's of course pretty easy and of course people can help me with that also you know with the distribution of parts I'm going to work together with people in the US who will deal with that as well Right, that's what I was going to ask. Are you going to be selling these games through distributor?
    106:45
    Or selling them directly? Well, in the US, they will be handled exclusively by CoinTaker. Right. And in Europe, they will be distributed by us.
    107:04
    Such pinball. Okay. yes yeah almost thought you forgotten the name yeah we thought about it and we said yeah well in Europe and also the rest of the world it's going to be easier if we do it ourselves because in the end you know when there is something wrong with the games or we need to there has to be dealt with support and stuff like that they will probably come to us anyway so okay I don't have any more questions but I unless Jonathan does I would like to ask you one oh ok I'll let you do that and I'll pitch in my final question then right ok so these 4D games that were recently sold to new customers so to speak some of the early achievers were kind of surprised to see that they could understand that you sold the game, but you also shipped the early achiever box that was an exclusive for original early achievers with these games as well. And that sort of struck some people. they were like why are you giving those away to people that should not be entitled to get those? Is there anything you want to say about that? Or was there a reasoning behind it?
    108:41
    I can't remember that it was always 100% exclusive for early achievers but I don't know I might have said it somewhere I just don't know at this point Do you know? Is it something I said or we said?
    108:58
    I'm currently going by my memory, so I thought the rug was only going to be part of something. Probably for free. Yeah. Oh, that could be the case. I think. Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong. Sorry. But I think it was never truly exclusive, but it was like the Chrome and Upgrade. It was something that early achievers would get for free.
    109:30
    Right, that's correct. Okay. And, of course, with you taking the game into production, recently we saw a price increase on the games that sold.
    109:51
    But once you're back into production and offering games, is there any chance that the current price of $12,500, is that going to be the new price, or is there going to be something like a pro version as well, where some of the elements are stripped from the game and you come up with a cheaper model?
    110:16
    It is something we're thinking about, but at this point we have not made a decision yet. I don't know. Okay. So, when do you expect to be starting to building the first new big Tobias keys? As soon as possible. I can't give an exact timing at this point. obviously your inventory first get the parts in store the parts in a manner of which is practical so that you have easy access to them and so on and then yeah of course I work on plans of that as well you know I didn't yeah you know me a little bit but you know I know I'm always very practical if it comes to stuff like this and I take the floor plan of the building and I'm going to start drawing in 3D how the production process is going to take place. And, of course, I'm working on that. So I think because of this practical approach, I think we can be in production pretty fast. And, of course, I've already done this several times.
    111:27
    So, yeah. And no pre-orders this time. No pre-orders this time. Right. Okay. I guess we'll move on to Martin's final question then. Yeah, I just wanted to give the opportunity to say a few words to two groups of people, really.
    111:54
    Firstly, to those early achievers who have been waiting patiently for many years, or at least a couple of years, to get their games, what can you say to them and give them realistic hope that they will get those games in the not too distant future, if the plans come together by the end of next year and to those people who are thinking of buying the game now what can you say to them who want to be in on buying a new retail game from your new production run what's your sales pitch to them about why they should and what their purchase would mean for the company and for everyone involved.
    112:47
    Okay. Well, I never needed a sales pitch for Lebowski before, so I haven't got one right here. But I want to say, of course, a few things. So what I want to say to the early achievers and, of course, other people, Well, I know the last past years they've been waiting on games that sucked, really.
    113:12
    But I always had some hope that it would, in the end, eventually work out. Like I said before, I'm pretty positive. I always see possibilities.
    113:25
    I don't give up easy. I think everybody sees that. and yeah like I said before I mean our company was you know so close to bankruptcy and I think that this happened and the future we are now facing is I think it's something good I mean I know there are people with lots of negativity and of course it could go wrong in the end as well but at this point I think I'm in 100% control of the company there are no more lawsuits I don't have any manufacturer to talk to when things need to be done it's all in my hands now and I know that I can do this and of course I mean we need to show it to people and we will you're currently in the process of basically building up Dutch Pinball again in a new form as a manufacturer, as a distributor in the near foreseeable future you'll be building Big Lebowski's but will there be other games as well? yes, we of course now in the next few months and maybe years we will focus on TBL only and building as much games and selling as much games as we can. But it's not going to stop at Lebowski.
    115:10
    Like we had planned before, you know, making new games, and it's still something that we want to do, build new games,
    115:19
    completely new games for years to come. Right. So at some point, obviously, like you said, you'll be starting out the assembly of the Lebowskis yourself, also to make sure that the whole process is documented properly and that you can hand it over to other people. But at some point, you'll be designing, again, number two. Yeah. And three and a four and five and so on. Yeah. and well that's promising especially if game number two will be as exciting as the big lebowski because um it has to be said that personally i can only speak for myself but i think with lebowski you really managed to to create a not only a very exciting pinball machine but also with a very good theme integration.
    116:16
    So I'm very curious to see what other games you might come up with. Yeah. I'm sure I can surprise everyone.
    116:28
    Good. Well, thank you very much indeed, Barry, for joining us on this special joint Pinball Magazine and Pinball News podcast. I think it's been an enlightening discussion and conversation. You're welcome. I think everybody will wish you the best in your endeavors, and I don't think anybody, well, hardly anybody, would not want to see you producing Big Lebowski's and other games long into the future. So we'll wish you the best of luck, and let's get those early achievers their games as soon as we possibly can as well. Thank you. That is the mission. I mean, that is the only thing I'm still doing this. I mean, if there were no early achievers, I was probably thrown into town maybe years ago. But they are the main reason I'm still doing this. And they are the guys that need their games. And I want to thank them for the trust and the patience.
    117:29
    And I will do everything in my power to get the games. And of course, I'm feeling really sorry for how things went. But, yeah, well, what can I say? It's not like I planned it like this. I mean, our water scenario was pretty good. But, yeah, well, due to circumstances, it did work out. And now we're here. And now there's still hope. And now let's see if we can pull it off. I think a lot of people don't realize that it was either the current scenario or it was nothing.
    118:01
    Yeah, right. And I think we were very close to nothing. I think if you would have told past six months, Barry, that we would be here right now, I would have left. I wouldn't believe it. Right. I remember talking to you the day that you, well, you remember. I helped you rewrite that newsletter that was supposed to go out informing people on Jaap's illness and leaving the company. and that you were almost at the end of your rope, but you still had a few days to consider whether to appeal or not against the court ruling. And that same afternoon, you sort of sought out with ARA. Yeah.
    118:47
    It was really bizarre. Yeah. It's so strange the way things suddenly work out when you're at least expecting them. Right. Exactly.
    118:56
    Well, thank you very much indeed, Barry. That was very entertaining and informative. We will be back, Jonathan and I, we'll be back at the end of September this month, where they look back at everything that's gone on in the pinball world over the past month. And I'm sure there'll be plenty more to be said about Dutch pinball and the Big Lebowski very, very soon. Right. And just as a reminder, if you want to read about the history of Dutch pinball up to the point where things started to go into the wrong direction there's actually quite an in-depth article on them in Pinball Magazine number 4 also with interesting artwork and stuff like that so if you're really into that then by all means make sure to order Pinball Magazine number 4 and like Martin said we'll be back at the end of September with a new podcast I expect we're going to be hearing a lot more from Dutch Pinball I'm very happy with how this podcast went and hope you appreciate it as well I'm very happy also that Barry was willing to take two hours of his time to enlighten us and the rest of the world on what went down. Hopefully you can appreciate it as much as we do.
    120:31
    That's it for now. I say bye-bye for now and until the end of the next month. We'll see you then. Bye-bye.