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Winter 2022 Chat with Mel Kirk

BlahCade Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·56m 42s·analyzed·Dec 18, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Mel Kirk details Zen's 2023 console launch plans, studio growth, licensing strategies, and shift away from ticket system.

Summary

Mel Kirk from Zen Studios discusses Pinball FX's 2022 achievements and 2023 roadmap on the Blockade Pinball Podcast. Key updates include console releases coming February 2023 (PlayStation/Xbox) and April (Switch), studio growth to 120 people with plans for 12 designers and 25 tables annually, licensing challenges for enhanced classic games (Addams Family, World Cup), the sunset of the ticket system in favor of direct store purchases, and a shift from monthly to bi-monthly package releases due to console submission requirements. Mel also addresses VR development timelines, mobile platform potential, and creative autonomy within the Embracer/Saber Interactive ownership structure.

Key Claims

  • Pinball FX console releases targeted for February 2023 (PS4/5, Xbox) and April 2023 (Nintendo Switch, other platforms)

    high confidence · Mel explicitly states delivery timeline for console versions after delays from 2022

  • Zen Studios has grown from 65 people at acquisition by Embracer/Saber Interactive to approximately 120 people in roughly two years

    high confidence · Mel provides specific headcount figures and acquisition timeline

  • Zen targets 12 designers capable of producing 25 pinball tables per year (roughly 2 tables per designer annually)

    high confidence · Mel states explicit hiring goal and productivity target

  • 98% of Zen Pinball players who purchase Williams games play the enhanced version, with play time data showing higher engagement than base versions

    high confidence · Mel cites specific statistic about player adoption and usage patterns for enhanced Williams tables

  • Addams Family Pinball FX table priced at $9.99, with undisclosed marketing surprises planned for January release

    high confidence · Mel confirms pricing and hints at additional features/editions to be announced

  • Console submission requirements prevent individual table releases; Zen will shift to bi-monthly package releases of 2-3 tables or thematic collections

    high confidence · Mel explains technical and publishing constraints forcing release model change

  • Zen is exploring Steam release but has no confirmed announcement; historical support suggests future availability

    medium confidence · Mel provides deliberately ambiguous answer suggesting Steam is under consideration

  • VR Pinball FX is not day-one launch but planned for future (estimated 'day 100-150' development timeline)

    medium confidence · Mel indicates VR is planned post-launch with significant development work required for asset optimization

Notable Quotes

  • “We didn't deliver Pinball FX on consoles in 2022, which we were aiming for and we all thought we were going to do, but just didn't happen but it's happening in February, right?”

    Mel Kirk @ early in interview — Addresses major 2022 miss and confirms February 2023 console launch

  • “The game is extremely network-heavy, and our code base started from scratch, leaving PX Engine behind and going into Unreal. Yeah. And our entire back-end network system, which powers leaderboards, events, tournaments, anything that requires pinging to a server, was completely rebuilt.”

    Mel Kirk @ early discussion — Explains primary technical cause of console delay

  • “That team was based in St. Petersburg. And can't begin to tell you what they've been living through and in turn what ultimately caused us some big delays and things like that.”

    Mel Kirk @ during delay explanation — References Russia-Ukraine war impact on Zen's backend development team

  • “We actually have a lot of women now, which is cool. So, yeah, most of the team is off right now and going to enjoy a holiday”

    Mel Kirk @ early in interview — Notes studio diversity improvements during growth phase

  • “98 of our players who buy Williams and play Williams will play it in the enhanced version they don't they will play it in the other one but they at least they'll they'll toggle on and they'll play it”

    Mel Kirk @ mid-interview discussion of Williams games — Provides quantified evidence of enhanced version adoption success

  • “We think that our simulation is by far the best in the world. Nobody's even coming close to us, uh even what with what happened previously. That's just because we continue to work on it and invest in it and try to improve”

    Mel Kirk @ Williams/simulation discussion — Strong claim about competitive advantage in pinball physics simulation

  • “I understand the thing with the ticket balances, but as we were building the system through where you were getting bulk discounts and bundles that you wanted to purchase, you know, I think it kind of showed that we couldn't do it the same across the board.”

Entities

Mel KirkpersonChris Freebus (Shut Your Trap)personJared MorganpersonZen StudioscompanyEmbracer Group / Saber InteractivecompanyPinball FXproductAddams FamilygameWorld CupgameWilliams Games (enhanced versions)product_line

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Zen Studios doubled in size from ~65 to ~120 employees in 2 years post-acquisition by Embracer/Saber Interactive; on track for 12 designer hiring target to enable 25 tables/year production

    high · Mel provides explicit headcount progression and designer/productivity targets

  • ?

    community_signal: Zen implementing enhanced/remake strategy for classic licensed tables with iterative learning on aesthetic balance; theatre of Magic invisibility ball and Addams Family Thing box engraving cited as examples

    medium · Discussion of enhancement tastefulnes and community acceptance of progressive refinement in enhancement approach

  • $

    market_signal: FIFA licensing became available to Zen after EA Sports exclusive ended; Mel indicates favorable timing and openness from FIFA despite market uncertainty about exclusive loss

    medium · Mel: 'FIFA were willing and open to talk to us when we were ready' and 'for us it was good news don't look a gift horse in the mouth'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Zen team composition now includes significant female representation (noted as improvement); studio culture emphasizes designer creative autonomy in project selection

    medium · Mel notes diversity improvement and states 'we want to give our designers the opportunity to work on what they want and have some decision'

  • $

    market_signal: Zen abandoning ticket virtual currency system due to widespread negative community sentiment; shifting to direct store purchases with platform-specific pricing variations

    high · Mel acknowledges ticket system 'dead on arrival' and poor communication; citing overwhelming feedback from press, influencers, and players calling system predatory

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.170

0:00
blockade pinball podcast this is the blockade pinball podcast i'm your host chris freebus aka shut your trap joining me as always halfway across the world it's jerry morgan blink blink Blame it, it's early. Hello. Just a wee bit early for you, huh? Yeah, that's right. That's right, I'm off. I've caffeinated. I think I'll be okay. Hello, everyone. There's a good reason why we have shaken Jared out of his bed at this early time. It's because also joining us is our good friend, Mel Kirk. Hey, guys. Good to be with you again, Jared. Yeah, we've started you quite early, my friend. Yeah, that's okay. I will make an exception when we get an opportunity to chat with you. You're a hard person to track down. Yeah, Mel's a bit busy. You know, there's stuff going on in your life, I would imagine. Just a little bit. Especially in the holidays. You were just in Budapest, right?
1:07
Yeah, yeah. I don't remember when I came back. It was sometime this week. So I was just there, and we had an end-of-year celebration and got to see everybody, because that doesn't happen very often in a work-from-home environment, and celebrate the year, look forward to next year, all that kind of stuff. So it was a nice trip. That's awesome. And then the team there is, I'm sure, looking to get a little bit of time off during the holiday too, right?
1:33
Yeah. Most guys are – well, most of the team is off now. I shouldn't just say guys. We actually have a lot of women now, which is cool. So, yeah, most of the team is off right now and going to enjoy a holiday, and there's still work going on. But, yeah, it's the time of year where hopefully we can charge our batteries and get ready for next year.
1:53
Fantastic. I'm going to do one bit of maintenance here because I just saw something that I had not cleared. I saw it too. You saw that too, didn't you? But in the meantime. Let me just go. While we're. Blink.

Mel Kirk @ ticket system sunset discussion — Explains rationale for controversial ticket system abandonment

  • “It wasn't enough. We didn't communicate it properly. It got off to a terrible start. It was it was probably dead on arrival the way we put it out.”

    Mel Kirk @ ticket system discussion — Mel acknowledges poor ticket system launch and communication failures

  • “Stay tuned to January. I don't want to steal my marketing team's thunder. They've got something really fun planned.”

    Mel Kirk @ Addams Family discussion — Confirms unreleased features/editions planned for Addams Family announcement

  • “We have to create different assets and we have to scale them differently. You might see PFX has taken some cues from Star Wars Pinball VR and this kind of pinhole setup that we have in this room.”

    Mel Kirk @ VR discussion — Indicates VR approach learning from Star Wars VR implementation

    • Star Wars Pinball VR
    game
    My Little Ponygame
    Budapest (Zen Studios HQ)location
    St. Petersburg backend teamorganization
    PX Engineproduct
    Unreal Engineproduct
    PlayStation 4/5product
    Xbox (all current models)product
    Nintendo Switchproduct
    Epic Games Storeproduct
    Farsight Studioscompany
    Paramountcompany
    FIFA / EA Sportscompany
    Christopher Lloydperson
    Blockade Pinball Podcastorganization
    The Pinball Showorganization
  • ?

    announcement: Addams Family Pinball FX table featuring Christopher Lloyd likeness resolution, Thing animatronic at drain with lightbulb, gold collector's edition variant planning, $9.99 pricing, and unrevealed January marketing surprises

    high · Mel confirms pricing, licensing resolution details, and marketing surprises pending January announcement

  • ?

    product_strategy: Pinball FX console launch delayed from 2022 target to February/April 2023 due to backend network infrastructure rebuild during migration from PX Engine to Unreal Engine

    high · Mel: 'We didn't deliver Pinball FX on consoles in 2022, which we were aiming for' and explanation of St. Petersburg backend team impacts

  • ?

    product_strategy: Console submission requirements forcing shift from monthly individual table releases to bi-monthly package releases (2-3 tables or thematic collections); eliminates single-table purchases except for one-off licensed properties

    high · Mel explains Sony/Xbox QA bottleneck preventing stacked submissions; Addams Family as last individual purchase except new licensors

  • ?

    product_concern: Enhanced Williams table versions achieving 98% adoption rate among purchasers with high play-time engagement; demonstrates successful tasteful enhancement approach

    high · Mel cites specific 98% statistic and notes play-time data 'would shock you' in favor of enhanced versions

  • ?

    technology_signal: VR Pinball FX development planned for post-launch (estimated 'day 100-150' timeline) with separate asset optimization and 'pinhole' camera setup approach informed by Star Wars Pinball VR

    medium · Mel indicates VR is not day-one and requires distinct technical approach; references existing Star Wars VR implementation as reference

  • ?

    technology_signal: Zen migrated Pinball FX from proprietary PX Engine to Unreal Engine, requiring complete network backend rebuild and console optimization work

    high · Mel: 'code base started from scratch, leaving PX Engine behind and going into Unreal' with full backend system reconstruction

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Significant licensing complexity for Christopher Lloyd likeness on Addams Family; resolution involved removing high-detail portrait images from backglass while retaining stylized playfield elements

    high · Detailed discussion of likeness removal strategy and comparison to Farsight's Indiana Jones licensing approach

    • 2:10
    Just a quick edit. And then I go. There we go. Okay. Now we're back to business. Right-o. It's been a while since we've had a guest on here. I hadn't cleared the old cameras of everything. There we go. Okay.
    2:26
    All right. So as is kind of becoming a tradition here with you, you plopping in right at the end of the year, after a very busy year of goings-on with Zen Pinball, and we kind of like to do a little retrospective of, you know, call it what was successful for you guys, what went right, what are some things that you missed the target on that you were hoping to have done, and what can we look forward to in the next year. And this, obviously, folks, is going to cover also what was addressed in the last Pinball Show episode. So I guess what we're going to do, let's start off right at the bat. We'll get the business out of the way there. Mel, promote away. We're getting consoles finally.
    3:12
    Yeah, finally. your question about what went well and what didn't go well, well we didn't deliver Pinball FX on consoles in 2022, which we were aiming for and we all thought we were going to do, but just didn't happen but it's happening in February, right? so PlayStation 5 and 4 all the Xboxes at one all the Xboxes all the current Xboxes and then that's February and then looking further into April. That's what we have targeted for Nintendo Switch and other platforms. So that's the lineup right now. What was, do you think, the biggest hang-up just with bringing the consoles to bear? Was it just launching the entire platform itself, or was there optimization things, or what was kind of the sticking point? Well, the game is extremely network-heavy, and our code base started from scratch, leaving PX Engine behind and going into Unreal. Yeah. And our entire back-end network system, which powers leaderboards, events, tournaments, anything that requires pinging to a server, was completely rebuilt. And we actually have external technology for that through our parent company. And it was a challenge. That team was based in St. Petersburg. and can't begin to tell you what they've been living through and in turn what ultimately caused us some big delays and things like that. So it's a team effort though at the end of the day. And that's the delay. That was the huge thing. We were awesome on the content side. The tables, you saw them coming month after month. And the company ship. Now it's the platform side that is the delay, but it's coming into view. We are almost done with the platform or feature lock. Obviously we're coming to consoles. So we're there. Awesome. Yeah. We kind of forget about, I shouldn't say we forget about it, but the,
    5:16
    how close Budapest is to all of that with, with Russia and the Ukraine and everything that's going on there. And obviously how many partners, you know, just in Europe general for, for video content that everybody relies upon.
    5:34
    You don't realize how that's all integrated and how something like that would just disrupt. I'm sure you're not the only studio that's been affected by this. There's a lot of studios and a lot of companies affected by this.
    5:48
    And yeah, the guys in Hungary are a border away, right? Ukraine, they share a border with Ukraine. There's been all sorts of, you know, there's just stuff people deal with over there on a daily basis that affects work, and at the end of the day, work doesn't become the most important thing. Yeah. No, I see that. You know, we live through it, and we're okay as a company. We understand that we didn't deliver what we thought was going to happen due to unforeseen circumstances, but at the end of the day, our people are safe and they're good. We grew the studio. Everybody's working well. The game is done when it's done, and people are more important. Let's talk about that growth of studio because you guys were definitely going on a hiring spree. We keep on seeing new tables designed by new designers.
    6:27
    Where are we at? I know that you would, last time we talked to you, I think that you were saying that you were hoping to have, what, 12 designers?
    6:36
    Yes, we want to have 12 designers, which ultimately means we have, like a designer can do two games a year on average is the thought. So we're trying to hit that 25 table a year goal. The studio itself grew, we're about 120 people right now. Oh my gosh. That's a lot. That's a lot more from the 50 people that you used to have when we started talking to you. Wow, yeah, 50. Wait, was it even 50 or was it even less when we first started talking to Mel?
    7:06
    What year was it? It would have been a couple of years ago now. Probably at least four years ago, maybe five. So I kind of mark it now when you're acquired by Embracer Group under Saber Interactive, we were 65 at that point. And so it's been almost exactly two years since we were acquired and, you know, we've doubled, pretty much doubled the size of the company. Wow. Yeah, that is large growth. I wonder, you know, with Embrace's backing and everything like that and that amount of growth, I remember, you know, releasing the console isn't a foreign thing for Zing. You've been doing it for a number of years now, but I just wonder, is it easier to manage the coordination with a company like Embracer and Sabre behind you? Or is it about the same sort of, you know, juggling of balls that you would normally expect when you're dealing with all the different console platforms?
    8:03
    It's still largely an autonomous culture where we are left to work independently. and so for the pinball side we are 100 in control of what we want to do with with this game where we publish and all that all the channels so that's about the same um we manage our first party relationships on the rpg side which you know we have a whole other kind of side going on um saber has helped us a lot more there and they've gotten more involved but on the pinball side side of things it's totally us speaking of the rpg um because every time i see a little screenshot of the uh i'm not sure exactly of the title it's a circus dreadnoughtical no sick as electric circus electric i immediately go well that looks like a cool pinball table and i'm like oh it's not a pinball table um and and the fact that like dread nautical we were convinced that we were going to be seeing kind of like what you guys did with castle storm um can we expect maybe still that kind of thing maybe in the future that some of your rpgs are going to become pinball?
    9:01
    Maybe. The problem is, there's a couple things. One, we want to give our designers the opportunity to work on what they want and have some decision in what they're doing. That's really important to us. And then number two, the amount of opportunities we have, and guys, I think I'm a broken record when I tell you our roadmap and the IPs and who we're working with. It's like, yeah, should we do Dreadnoughtical or should we do this?
    9:29
    Let's do that. so sure we'd love to see I mean I think in Ophrencia, Dredonical and the Tricus Electric table would be awesome but with the other opportunities you have yeah priorities speaking of we didn't get to talk to you about World Cup you talked to us previously about it a little bit but maybe you can go into a little bit more now for our audience just the challenges with that table, especially lining up FIFA. It seemed like all of a sudden all sorts of things were happening in terms of certain games losing FIFA license, and everybody was like, wait, does this mean anything for us? And then that kind of nature. Give us a little taste of what went along with getting World Cup to show.
    10:19
    I think timing is everything. FIFA were willing and open to talk to us when we were ready to make the game, and yeah we were able to secure their marks and license uh for the for the game which means that the table we put out was 100 authentic and that was really important to us uh that is really important to us with any of these big third-party games that we're making we want to try and get them true to form um but like i said with fifa i think it was timing uh for years and years they had the exclusive with ea i have no visibility into why that didn't continue but look for us it was good news don't look a gift horse in the mouth as they say just sign the paperwork that's what we do yeah it wasn't cheap but we were willing that's just what it takes you still managed to get it below that sweet mark though of you know the sort of $10 mark we're not talking another Indiana Jones price here so I think people expected that FIFA ain't cheap so you know and the table is just compared to if you look at the that table compared with the the fast light version it's a different beast altogether like it plays so much oh it plays completely differently yeah it's just it's so much more lively and so much more true to form i've got one of those tables around this area that i live in and playing that one and playing the one that's actually on site, it's pretty much close to where it is. Close when I say that, it's like, well, you know, no pinball machine is the same. But it's definitely reflective of the game, that's for sure. Well, good. I'm glad that you're enjoying it. We think that we've elevated these games above previous versions of them that existed digitally. Part of that is we're in a different engine, so we have more graphical horsepower. but we think that our simulation is by far the best in the world nobody's even coming close to us uh even what with what happened previously that's just because we continue to work on it and invest in it and try to improve you know and uh so i'm glad that it's showing through i think also that our enhanced version or remake version and whatever you want to call it um i think that we we had it was tastefully done i think that we really kind of uh honed in on how to do it tastefully and uh we are seeing that people 98 of people who play the williams games do play the enhanced version so it's worthwhile 98 now is that is that across all williams or just all the williams games interesting yeah like collective as a whole 98 of our players who buy williams and play williams will play it in the enhanced version they don't they will play it in the other one but they at least they'll they'll toggle on and they'll play it and i'm not going to reveal the play times but it'll it would shock you how much time is spent with the enhanced version and so we think that it's been a good addition and it kind of allows them to put our you know these are we love these games but this is like our little moment that we can have with them as well i think there's certainly a learning curve uh with how you guys were doing enhancements because it seems like with each table like you said that taste level that you're using and and how uh i'm not gonna say intrusive but how uh at the forefront it is has found a very nice sweet spot where it's not um not like ah i gotta turn that off because it's just like it's ruining for me you know kind of thing so that's right like the disappearing ball in theater of magic you know the outline that's a mean necessarily mean that's quite tricky but yeah the the integration and the balance i feel is just getting better and better with the enhancement so it's good it's interesting to hear the statistics back that up Yeah which I think kind of leads nicely into the next big thing which would be Adam family Yeah Mom trivial There were certain aspects that when I watched the video, the first thought to me was, oh, wow, that's really nice. They got that detail on the table. And then I went, wait, that's an enhancement. Yeah. I think the one that caught my eye was on top of the thing box. You actually have an engraving on the box that says thing. And I think that for some reason, I thought that that was just part of it. That was just the thing. That's how good it looked. And just like seamless it was for me.
    14:49
    Adam's family. Yes. Let's get into that. We already all know the deal with Christopher Lloyd. And so we don't need to hash that. But the festering of Fester, as we like to call it, the image that I saw in your video, I feel like I'm going to have to really hold it side by side with the actual one to go, oh, there's where the changes are, because it looked pretty legit to me.
    15:19
    Yeah, and if we want to talk about it, we might need to bring up some images just so I can see. But really, all that happened, you know, Fester's on the art on the back glass and on the play field. Yeah. So he's just missing. That's the only difference between the original and what we've done. But you have an actual, there's an actual fester head down at the drain hole in the videos that you guys showed.
    15:45
    On your table, because it's a big fester head with the light bulb in his mouth right there at the flipper on the bottom. So that might be, that is probably able to be left in. Because that's, there's some tricky things. I have to go back and look at how it was done and what we were permitted to use and not use. But the likeness images of him in his full character are the things that are missing. Oh, on the back glass itself. On the back glass. So the high detail images. Yeah. Because I think when Farsight had the same problem, Oh, yeah. the adjustments they needed to make on the play field were minor. It was almost like the 20% thing with plagiarism. Not that this is a plagiarism thing. But it wasn't a lot of adjustment to actually get past the line. The truth be told, it's already a cartoon image. It's not a Photoshop. It's stylized. It's stylized already. So the removal of certain bags under the eyes or adding in a shadow on the cheek, it's so stylized anyway. I always just kind of went, as if you could tell that was Christopher Lloyd to begin with. You know, it's... Yeah.
    16:54
    These are some of the challenges with these games Indy was sort of the same way There's a lot of speculation And even if you look all the way back Is that really Harrison Ford? Because it's the way it's drawn And the way it looks We always play on the safe side I'm not going to assume That's not Christopher Lloyd Come on That's where our argument With the shadow Baldwin's not on that table The back glass image is not Alec Baldwin, and you put up a side-by-side image of the poster and that back glass, it's not even close to the same person, but everybody just assumes it's him because, oh, yeah, he started the movie, and that's the... So it's like, wow, the licensing on that has got significantly easier.
    17:44
    There are other games we're working on right now where this is the conversation I'm having with several different companies, right, all at the same time about different people, so it's really funny.
    17:53
    It's a challenge. Yeah, this is something that we work through with each of these games. Ah, the fun with licensing.
    17:58
    The licensing with, obviously, the rest of everybody. Did you find that that flowed together better now that you'd already partnered with Paramount for World War Z? Maybe because these things had already been recently done when Farsight put together packages. Did it kind of come together easily for you, or was it kind of gnashing and pulling teeth like it was with Indy?
    18:22
    I'd say it's getting easier. The challenge is always music and likeness, right? Usually getting a license grant for Zen now is easy. Okay. There's no challenge. But figuring out the licensing particulars, as we call them, is always a challenge, no matter how many times you work together with a company, because individuals are different, estates are different, and music licensing is always challenging, especially talking about old music or synthesized music, different versions of music from the original. Right. Do you need a publish? Do you need a sync? Do you need both? do we not need any because this music actually isn't really, it's a sound alike but it's too much of a sound alike so laughter oh geez yeah music it's that snap snap that's all it is um the uh with Adam's Family obviously there's the standard version that most people have played and then there's the gold collector's edition that also came out later with a slightly different ROM set. Is that kind of also a plan to do both ROM sets or is it just going to be purely the base model?
    19:36
    Stay tuned to January. I don't want to steal my marketing team's thunder. They've got something really fun planned. I was going to say, is there anything, I had a feeling there might be things left on the table that perhaps were like surprises plan so yeah yeah that was my next question and it sounds like yes they had some time to work on something i think it's really fun and really cool uh we never know how things will be accepted you know but um they've they've been trying to do they're working on something really fun so i'm also very curious to see what you guys do with the actual thing uh lights in this regard for people that aren't playing with a back glass because that's obviously where those lights lived um And you're just kind of seeing what the workaround is that we do for that with this.
    20:21
    What was the other thing I was going to ask about Adam's family? I don't know. Slipped my mind. Do you have anything else to ask about Adam's family? Oh, I know what it was. Did you guys mention the price?
    20:30
    We did. Yeah. It's a $9.99. Okay. So once again, into that sweet spot there. Seems fair enough. Okay.
    20:39
    Jared, you pick the next topic. um let's go with um platform releases so we we know that you know you're going full steam ahead with consoles they're going to land um around february um i was curious about i mean we we know that for pc at the moment it's still um epic games um in the announcement i didn't see a lot about Steam, and I know there's a fair few people out there that are still interested in running the platform, running the game on Steam. Is that a future platform, or is that not really something that's going to be targeted for PC?
    21:19
    I don't have anything to confirm regarding Steam at this point. I'll just say that historically we've supported Steam, so you can read into that as whatever you like.
    21:32
    That's probably enough. That's okay. And I guess flowing on for that as well, the other platforms that are floating around out there as well being mobile platforms, I would imagine that while Unreal is cross-platform,
    21:52
    trying to work out the horrific landscape of iOS, not so much iOS, but Android, is probably even harder than Switch, trying to get things optimized and stuff like that. So I'd imagine it'd be fair to say we're probably going to be waiting a while to see the game on mobile platforms. So I'm not completely up to date as to where we are with chipsets for the newest mobile devices, but I can tell you I know that some mobile devices are more powerful than the Switch itself.
    22:28
    Android is a tough landscape because it's supporting so many different chipsets, But the new Qualcomm and the Snapdragon stuff are pretty powerful. I've got this little Asus notebook over here that Qualcomm sent me and it's running PFX in its current state on Epic Game Store, which is pretty crazy. Well, that's wild. And that's what's powering a lot of the new Android devices. And then on iOS, the new phones and iPads are amazingly powerful. So I think mobile, you know, call it within the last two years generation, maybe last year, definitely capable of running PFX. That's interesting. I think that we'll be making announcements about it at some point. That's really good news. Yeah. Is it fair to say that doing optimization for the Nintendo Switch would also fall in line for doing optimization for future VR releases? Optimization for Switch is different than what we do for VR.
    23:26
    Switch really lives in its own little space. It is the most underpowered little device that we want to support, and so we try to get there with everything. We get huge gains for everything else when we do that work. You'll see big gains on PC. The men's spec is going to be coming down for the final release. It'll get even better. We've seen that happen already just with Xbox some PlayStation. VR is a different set of, it's a different animal. We have to create different assets and we have to scale them differently.
    23:57
    You might see PFX has taken some cues from Star Wars Pinball VR and this kind of pinhole setup that we have in this room.
    24:07
    Being forward thinking and thinking about how do we really want Pinball FX and then a separate VR game? That's not what we're going after this time. Oh, that's good.
    24:20
    VR is not their day one, but maybe day 100. Maybe day 150. So that's the idea. Yeah, I was going to say, I think me and Jared are both firmly coming to the camp of, oh, it would be so great if, I mean, you already integrated that cave aspect from Star Wars into this.
    24:40
    Yeah, to have it all just be a solitary, hey, if you want to throw on your VR headset, it's the exact same thing that you already have. Everything's already saved. oh, I don't want to play VR, take it off, do the other. I think that's why we were even kind of arguing with when playing a Williams table that I just want to end the man cave. I don't want the Williams environment to all of a sudden take me out of it. I want to just be in that same environment the entire time.
    25:02
    But that's good that you guys are at least thinking in that direction for when VR does. Imagine VR is kind of the same situation as Android chipsets because if you're looking at the MetaQuest, it is an Android-based platform. So I'd imagine that it is probably a similar boat to Switch in that it is quite bespoke, and you need to then look at performance on that as well. For a native VR experience, if you want it on the MetaQuest store, or ideally if you have it through AirLink and you're playing it through your PC, on VR, that's the other way that a lot of people are going now, or cabled. But if you want it to have a standalone release, then you probably need to reconsider how performance looks on the platform itself. Because playing Star Wars VR versus on the native MetaQuest experience versus the PC Quest experience is a very different experience. There's clear sacrifices that need to be made because of the VR Qualcomm chipset that's in the Quest 2. So I'd imagine similar performance things need to be entertained when you're looking at that sort of release for VR. Yes, that's true. But I think the point I was trying to make or whatever is that there's different assets that we have to optimize. You know, we do a lot with 3D characters as being next to you and as part of the environment and things like that. So in order to do that, that's a certain type of work. And the optimization that goes with that is pretty heavy lifting. Yeah, because those are big things to render. Those things that stand next to you in the game.
    26:53
    Jabba's right there, man. Yeah, he's at scale. Lots of polys thrown around along with that. And then you're actually rendering the table as well. So, yeah, there's a lot of extra overhead with the VR sort of experience. Yeah, it's very interesting. uh let's shift into the other major uh announcement there was with the regards to uh payments for all these things the ticket system is going away um i know that there's a lot of people that are happy about that but i also think there's still holdovers from when you first introduced the ticket system and didn't realize how much has changed in the interim and now i wonder if people have shot themselves in the foot because that pretty much is the death knell for being able to do cross-platform uh purchase wants play anywhere unless you're doing pinball pass uh yeah that that's correct uh we we pivoted away from the ticket system and we're going back to just having um games available via the stores for fiat money or real money um no longer for virtual currency. And it does take away, well, we had a lot of gains and a lot of advantages that we found with that system that we were going for.
    28:11
    You can still have cross-commerce, like you mentioned, through Pinball Pass if you subscribe and you can play the tables wherever you want to play But at the end of the day it just seemed the overwhelming feedback even personal emails or communications I was getting from press from influencers, from people, was just that they hated tickets. They thought it was predatory. I understand the thing with the ticket balances, but as we were building the system through where you were getting bulk discounts and bundles that you wanted to purchase, you know, I think it kind of showed that we couldn't do it the same across the board. And so it was hard to say, yeah, you're going to have a zero ticket balance. But it just it wasn't enough. We didn't communicate it properly. It got off to a terrible start. It was it was probably DOA the way we put it out. Anyway, we just couldn't win people over. So, hey. that's fine but um the cross commerce is still there through pinball pass so uh you know some people like are telling me that um i i was promising something that didn't get delivered and that it was just because we couldn't do cross commerce so we pivoted away well let me tell you um the very last moment to try to make to do this right and to figure out the long-term success of the game we felt like this was the right move and cross commerce is in fact there with pinball pass So it's just not the cross-buy with tables. Right. So there you go. Does that mean we're going to go back to different platforms having sales on tables at different times? Yeah. And then obviously, I know that you mentioned, and this goes into the whole, anytime you submit a game, it's got to go through that platform's quality assurance to make sure it's functioning so it adds weeks to release and timing. So it's also going to mean that we're no longer going to have month-to-month releases, but instead package releases.
    30:04
    Package releases every two months is the fastest we'll be able to do it just because you can't have multiple submissions stacked on top of each other in Sony's FQA or with Xbox. It's got to clear before you can put it out because we're publishing to their store again and no longer just to in-game. So that adds publishing overhead and time to release. We also will not be releasing individual tables because, again, that's multiple. Like all the submissions would just get backed up, stuck on top of each other. So if we can package things together like sets of three or sets of two or big collections where we have tables of, you know, seasonal stuff, that's what will be on the store. I thought it was really cool that people could just pick which table they wanted to buy. if we put a three-pack out and they're the only one interested in them, then they just get the one. It was great. Yeah, it was really, really good. So basically, Adam's family will be the last single-table purchase for the foreseeable future. No, we have other tables that are coming from new licensors where we just made one table. It was a game that we just really wanted to make, and so we made it together, and that's the only one. Oh, okay. My Little Pony also, for example, right? it's on it's there's not a pack of my little pony so that'll be like by itself but star wars is going to have pack marvel williams um zen originals these things where we have multiple games uh you know bethesda will become a pack again or i know it's not out yet in early access but those things that were all individually broken up are going to be grouped back together it makes me wonder as well the i really did enjoy being able to sort of make your own pricing in the past like you were suggesting it was really nice as a person coming in and wanting to build up their collection again in the platform to see all the different tiers laid out really transparently but now with the move back to dlc um is it going to be the case where you're going to try and roll in a a bit of a table pack discount like i assume you were doing before with like applying a flat rate discount across a pack and then offering it for a a price um was that how it worked before or is it different now i'm i'm not sure exactly if i'm understanding your question but yeah sorry that was a bit weird i need more coffee um what we what i'm saying what we are doing is offering those day one legacy discounts for the games that are coming you know that existed before in pinball fx3 those are the dog is greeting somebody at the door as he should yes uh we're still going to offer those discounts at the store level um for the week but if we wanted to leave that on for just say an extra week or something on our own we can't do that anymore right if we want to run a sale we have to be part of a curated sale or have a good enough relationship with first parties where we can just put stuff on sale like right now in um early access on the epic game store we can just put things on sale whenever we want. Hey, let's do a Back to the Future Day sale because it's October 21st, right? And have an event timed with it and do something really fun and in-game reward and all this stuff. Like we're losing the ability to do this, to coordinate the sale. So that's a bummer. Yeah.
    33:29
    The people that have purchased tickets already and have an excess of tickets, I'm sure that you can't go into it, but you did say that you'll have something in plan to make it right by them. Did I not hear that correctly, or is that yes? No, that's absolutely correct, and this is very, very important to us, because there were a large number of people who supported us in early access. And we are, I believe it's on Monday. I'm not sure when this is running, but sometime very soon, as early as next week, we'll put out some official communication about how that will work. and what players can expect. And we've already worked out a little bit of a process. I actually PayPal somebody some money because they were so upset. So whatever it takes, you know, we understand it's been confusing, and we've, you know, we go this way, then we go that way, and now we're here back to square one, really. So if you came on board with us and you were buying into everything that we were offering, no question we want to not leave you with extra tickets and make sure that you get the games on your preferred platform of choice so now that you've got the platforms done you had mentioned, okay this was a good six months ago, that you're putting cabinet mode on hold to get the consoles ready up and running so obviously that's a thing so I know in the show you mentioned cabinet modes coming back and not just for PC, but that you're looking at making it work with the consoles also, which I think is a fantastic idea.
    35:10
    In the background, I had seen the cab that Eikoshin Lin had done, and I noticed there was two flipper buttons holes drilled.
    35:23
    Yes, this is me getting nerdy on what I want in my cabinet mode, but I take it that some of the things that they wound up building have maybe affected what the roadmap for putting the cabinet together, mode for all of us together is?
    35:41
    Absolutely. And it was really important that we build our own machine because we just wanted to know at the DIY level what users were experiencing. We'd never done that before. We were just turning on features and taking feedback and sometimes looking at video. But, yeah, we actually, you know, Akush and Lynn have built that, and our teams, like, spend time just understanding the process and just getting really intimate with it.
    36:05
    And cabinet mode is so important to us that one of the things that we were just, we just finalized when I was in Budapest last week was we now have a dedicated hardware support team for cabinets. And this is going to be a big focus for us going forward. DIY support. We have multiple manufacturers, you know, lined up that we're working with. the public unit that can live in, you know, that we showed up years ago, but then got derailed by COVID and pandemic. That's all, man, that's going to be big, big, big focus going forward.
    36:40
    Exciting things to think about. So that was the question I had. And again, the level of detail you can go into isn't probably that great, but are we going to see something like, not specifically, but something like the arcade, the one-up arcade physical cabinet that's a commercial product that people can buy and have in their homes essentially so the commercial products uh i think that there's no reason why somebody wouldn't be able to buy one if you want to if you want to have a machine of that caliber and that quality uh yeah there'll be a way for you to buy it and we are we have interest uh got really like celeb celebrities i don't want to say they'll be like man can i get one of those in like my house you know well yeah yeah just give just wait a second um we'll get it for you but um yeah there's show pieces it looks really cool the game is all led lit and wrapped and it it's going to change based on what you're playing so one minute you got jurassic park dinosaurs marching around and you got typewriters flying around it you know so um yeah it's dynamic it's cool it's fun it is the ultimate luxury virtual pin so uh that can't wait to to make them a little more widely available that's awesome yeah uh jared you had a question regarding uh content some of the things that original things that have been kicking about yeah so um i think there's a few i mean we know that there's a a really long runway for content coming out in 2023 and beyond.
    38:18
    You've already mentioned that there's too many people to actually make tables for. But one thing I was curious about from a content perspective, is there going to be, are we going to see things like World Cup Soccer 94 and a tie-in with events coming out in 2023? Is there going to be some sort of alignment with big things that are happening in 2023 with the content?
    38:45
    That's the goal. We have moments put together where we think that that's going to align. And we'd love to be trending, right? We'd love to launch alongside something. We're probably not going to beat the show, but we can be complimentary. We can, you know, have something where this game is coming. It's intersecting some big, cool, fun thing that's happening. People can get excited, play together. We can be a part of it. Yes. That's really good. And I'm trying to do the math in my head about releases. So let's say every two months, three tables approximately every two months. That's like, help me here. It's too early in the morning. Well, he just said that the goal was 25 a year, right? 25, and that's still the goal. That's the goal. We're getting close.
    39:34
    If I pull up a spreadsheet, I can count for you the number of brand new tables that are releasing in 23. I won't tell you what they all are, but... But, right. Like brand new Zen, not recreations of Williams, but just brand new licenses to Zen. Well, some of those are brand new to Zen. Some of them are licenses, but... So, one, two, three...
    40:02
    Right now, somebody's trying to magnify in and get a reflection shot of Mel's eyeballs. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 don't worry the resolution isn't that good 16, 14, 15 16, 17, 18, 19 20, 21, 22, 23 24, there will be 24 and if all goes well and look our publishing pipeline was super secure with the way that we were releasing content directly in game and being able to bypass the storefronts but if all goes the way that we have it planned and what is sitting in my spreadsheet right now it is our our plan is there's 24 tables that do not exist in zen's pinball library right now that will release next year and that's a lot and i think we have to like you have to be realistic about this like that's essentially a year so things can just happen and this was the case with console you said oh yeah absolutely consoles are going to be coming out in december but you know years happen so it'd be nice but we would understand if it doesn't quite go to playing because that's a hard to predict thing target well i'll tell you right now right where we're sitting right here december 17th the way that this would all work the stuff that's locked in for february all the way to april is already actually queued up right so we're talking about the back half of the year um calling that is maybe at risk but um we'll we'll know it really So at least half of that is already accounted for and very, very solid. There's also one table that we're bringing back that everyone's been asking for that has been missing for a while. So that'll be a nice surprise. That's not included in the 24. All right. Okay. That's extra.
    41:47
    Very nice. Which one do we want, Jared? Oh, well. Not that we did this to an episode about Super League or anything. No, no. No, not at all. Where we broke down what changes we would make to the table. I actually have one more question as well. And this was just probably a thanks, actually. The public roadmap smell, they were really nice to see this year. And they're risky, right? Because they're almost like a promise. But, you know, you have to be realistic and say that they're more of a guidepost.
    42:22
    Is that something, is that level of transparency out of early access something that Zen wants to continue with?
    42:28
    Yeah we will And we adjusted our roadmap now so that tables are finishing earlier and we have more time to know exactly Well, this was the thing that was happening in early access was the game would be done and we could actually sit on it for 60 days and prepare good marketing assets and know without a shadow of a doubt it was coming out on a certain day. And then we could put that roadmap graphic up and with full assurity. Yeah. So, again, we have some adjustment right now and we'll see how it goes with with going back through traditional publishing. But if the roadmap is still set up where we're building an extra buffer time so that we can properly communicate. That's one of the things that we really learned is don't we have been in this like, I don't know, hamster race on the on the wheel where we're. Oh, it's done. It's ready. Get it out the door. And it's like, no, pause a little bit and give ourselves a little runway to communicate whatever it is we're working on. Yeah, absolutely.
    43:28
    The format of the pinball show has obviously also gotten a tweaking, making it a lot more focused, I would say.
    43:38
    How has that gone over internally with your numbers of viewership, just that nature? It's gone well. when we started the whole thing um it was funny because we had no idea what we were doing we're like game developers and then we're like oh let's also be entertainers and make a show you know it was you know what happened was uh like traditional press has been shrinking right there's just not as many outlets so we found we were just we weren't getting coverage we would announce something and and nobody would know about it so we just said well let's try to take this thing, you know, internal and make it something that's fun and engaging and get our news out there in a format that will hopefully interest people. And so that's what the pinball show, the original idea was. Of course, it's morphed. We've had our ups and we've had our downs and had some blunders and we've had some good times. But ultimately, yeah, you're right. I think it's become more focused and I think um you know yeah it it's good it's fun it served a purpose uh for sure and we'll see I think uh whatever the team wants to do with it in the future um is great I'm actually um you'll probably still see me in the show but um I'm I just don't have time and to be in the marketing side of things really at all anymore and they tell me hey we need you to show up and talk uh and you know uh we think it's going to be in two months and so we schedule myself but I'm doing, I'm not, I'm not involved in those day to day anymore. Yeah. Cause at one point you were actually directly involved in producing the show. Weren't you? Like there was like, I saw your name on the credits, I think at one point. Yeah. Yeah. I helped get it started and I was doing some writing and just helping organize and you put an outline together and then how we fill in all the details. But now the, the team has taken that and they're doing it. I love what they did with the, with the Adams family, that little, that stinger gave it away but i thought it got everybody talking about it yeah it was awesome yeah yeah it was cool you know just to be creative like that and they're having fun with it um you know that's what you want to be doing is just having fun so yeah yeah really i've got to say that the short and sharp um sort of reboot of the show is just for me really hitting it like i just i can easily dedicate five minutes to learn about new stuff it's just you know i think that sort of speaks to a lot of the stuff we're probably an outlier the way we do our show here and that it's long. But the trend seems to be that the shorter the better. The more digestible the better. So I think keeping it short and sweet is great.
    46:14
    Obviously you just mentioned that there's a whole bunch of in the pipeline new to Zen. Let's give people things to speculate about and that would be on the William's front because obviously they can guess titles of Williamson Bally tables that have been out there.
    46:32
    There's still a few that have not come over yet from the old batch. And then there's also, you know, the heavily licensed ones. And then obviously you guys started dipping your toes into those System 11s. Has there been anything that I know that at one point there's a couple of tables that were elusive just because they're hard to come by in Europe. How's that been coming along? Is there any tables that you guys are looking forward to? Obviously not asking you to mention them, but that you're looking forward to. You're like, oh, my gosh, this is so cool that we got this. I'm really excited that we're going to get to recreate that.
    47:11
    Yeah, well, including Adam's Family next year, there should be three other really big Williams games that I think people would be very excited to have in their collections. uh there's a few other there's others that have been hard to get but we made progress and we've got them then there's some that are still being worked on in the licensing side which are really hard and have never been released digitally so you can you can we all know what those are um games like the shadow and congo and stuff like that um these are challenges they're big challenges and there's some that i'm i don't know i thought i saw it all with uh with indie but there's others where there's just questions. And if people, I can't just, you know, move forward without an answer. The way we work here at Zen, we cannot risk making a wrong move and losing something on license. No way. That's too risky. Yeah. So, sorry to say my mic. If we can do it, and there are games, those games we want to get out. The ones that have never been done before, like those are just great opportunities. We hope that we can make those available. Yeah. Cool, cool. Yes. What else do we want? Is there anything else we need to attack here, Jerry? Yeah. Yeah, look, we've been following pretty closely all of the pinball effects in originals that have been released throughout the last year. And we've noticed that some are hitting harder than others from the perspective of, we call it pinball tropes. So the things that, as a player, you expect to see in, you know, the sort of more commercial games like Stern titles and the older Belly Williams titles. Things like design queues where you have, you know, let's say for the, after you launch the ball, the roll-o's at the top will give you a bonus multiplier. And in the case of Zen tables, what often happens is the return lanes and out lanes will give you kickbacks. but with the new designers coming through we've noticed that some of these tropes aren't actually being sort of consistently developed through the different releases so in the case of well just recently the um the elder gods release we did a let's play of that like first impressions of it and we noticed that we had to revert back to the actual rules of the game to get some of these design cues and gameplay cues and we're wondering is there we know there's a obviously zen has a dna when they're developing a table um but is there is there a plan to sort of make things like the real basics of the game the fundamentals of the game more consistent across titles in 2023 um that's a good question uh and to be honest with you i'm i'm not in touch at that level You guys might want to talk to Deep at this point. Maybe we should have you guys do a sit-down with him. Love it. Yeah, that'd be really good. Because I'm not so close to, like, a theme will come across and we're all talking about it. Is this a theme that we think is good? Are there exciting moments? What are the key gameplay aspects? Like, how are we going to wow people? But then after that, it goes into, like, the rule sets and the real design of the table itself. I actually, again, things that I'm involved with now with the company he runs, I'm not in the day-to-day design of a game anymore. So when I play it, sometimes it's like already, it's the pre-release version. Like it's beta, you know, or it might even be the ZBR, the ZBR milestone. So, and there's so many in the works. I mean, we have, it's changed, guys. So, I don't know. We should ask Deep about that. Absolutely. Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be awesome.
    51:09
    A whole different conversation with Deep. deep conversation with deep hey there's the title there we go a deep conversation with deep that's right nice alright I have to give deep some credit because I mean he's like our you know we're trying to what we should have been doing all along like let's see the designer make and we started doing that with Gary right Gary came out of customer service and he's now a pinball designer you know he worked his way up to that but But with Wrath of the Elder Gods, it was cool. It was like, we need to start painting the names of people just like the famous designers, right? Yes, absolutely. And the Lawlers of the world and all that. So Deep is a prolific pinball designer, and he's amazing. And he should get his credit, you know. So he's one of the greats. Yeah, absolutely. Like all the designers, they put so much effort and time into, I mean, making pinball machines is hard. And even if it's digital, it doesn't matter. it's still a similar amount of effort. I was going to say, that's why I love the fact that you guys do what the realty pinball tables do, which is put the designers and your credits basically there in the out lane.
    52:23
    And we noticed when we were playing Super League, I went down and was like, hey, there's no names there. We don't know who. We can't look quickly to see who did this. and then in the case of Grimm the little booklet covered up the names and there's no way to see them and we're like no that's sad they're there but I can't get the angle to see what the names are so yeah it's good that the credit's going where credit is due yeah absolutely alright well Mel you've been very generous with your time once again We always love having these talks with you seemingly twice a year, it seems like, how it works, which is fantastic for us. We love it.
    53:10
    Looking forward to what you have in store with this next year. Obviously, that's a lot of tables coming down the pipe, and I can't wait for the console people to get their hands on those that have been holding out this entire year in jealous rage wanting to play all these titles. Let me just say this. You're in for a treat. Yeah, yeah. I'm just trying to think brand new titles that came out this past year that weren't available in FX3 we're looking at at least a dozen if I'm not mistaken let's see I can look at my year so Indiana Jones right?
    53:51
    Mandalorian, Classic Collectibles World War Z um we teased king kong right monster version legendary yeah yep uh swords of fury yeah right at pinbot grim tales which is an original of course uh oh and you we also had uh we have noir we had um sky pirates sky pirates and mommy okay then we had home world with our friends over at gearbox yes um we had world cup officially licensed with fifa and then wrath of the elder gods yeah so those were the brand new and then we then we brought over those in pinball party games to TV and DreamWorks. It's like five. Yeah, so that's 17 new tables right off the top for console ports. Yeah, that weren't in the original package. How many years ago did I tell you we weren't giving up on pinball?
    54:57
    All I know is when you said you had a 10-year plan, this is pretty much going, you know what? They do have a 10-year plan. How about that? They've got an idea of what's going on here. Who would have thought? All right. Well, cool. Like I said, that's going to be awesome to see what everybody's reactions are. Obviously, people, if you want to go do any of those reactions, you guys have an active Discord page. You have an active Reddit channel.
    55:21
    So hop on there and communicate with people, folks, because I know that Mel pops on from time to time. And then obviously, Ikos and Lena pop on there all the time. So it's a good way of communicating that way, too.
    55:35
    For sure. Yeah. It's funny. I'm fairly accessible I get a lot of comments and I don't know how they find me but I'm like texting back this is my cell phone okay you know get your cell phone right it's crazy well cool alright enjoy the holidays there Mel and let us know when you've got anything new to tell us especially if you're coming around for any pinball shows that you want to promote if you are back into that route anytime soon. We'll be happy to let people know where to find you in person.
    56:12
    Cool. Thank you, guys. All right. Thank you, Mel. And with that, folks, we are out. We will see you next time, probably doing a Let's Play, because I don't think we're going to have anything before the new year if we pop in for any of that. Would you say so, Jared? Yeah, I'd say that's probably right. I think it might be a bit of quiet news leading up to then. Yeah. So until then, folks, we appreciate it. Enjoy the holidays. We'll talk to you all very very soon bye bye see you later