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EP 2 - What You May Have Missed in Harry Potter Pinball

Flip n Out Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·55m 40s·analyzed·Jun 28, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

JJP hosts debate Harry Potter's design, Eric Minier's evolution, and game integration philosophy.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Greg Bone discuss Jersey Jack Pinball's Harry Potter release, covering its significance as a major IP acquisition, design pressures on Eric Minier, and the game's evolution in shot design and mechanics. They explore the game's approach to condensing eight movies into one machine, debate the integration of movie clips and LCD screen utilization, and assess whether the game represents an evolutionary moment for both JJP and Minier as a designer.

Key Claims

  • Harry Potter is a A++ license for pinball alongside Star Wars

    high confidence · Ken explicitly states: 'I think, is another a plus plus license for pinball' when discussing HP alongside Star Wars

  • Guns N' Roses is Jersey Jack Pinball's number one selling title of all time

    high confidence · Ken states: 'guns and roses was a huge seller for jersey jack and they've gone on record as saying that's that's their number one selling title of all time'

  • Harry Potter game features eight movies condensed into a single release

    high confidence · Greg: 'you're taking eight movies, right? So we've got eight movies that are in one game'

  • Joe Katz is the lead programmer on Harry Potter for Jersey Jack Pinball

    high confidence · Ken: 'So Joe Katz, who's lead programmer over there at Jersey Jack Pinball on Harry Potter, the guy's a workhorse'

  • Harry Potter flips better than almost any other Jersey Jack game

    high confidence · Greg: 'the game flips better than almost any other game that they have. you know, that this game is quick. It is fast. It does not feel like a JJP'

  • Eric Minier was pursuing Harry Potter as his dream theme when Ken arrived at JJP in April 2020

    high confidence · Ken: 'when i came over to jersey jack it was like april 2020 i mean they were already he was already talking about how cool it would be to do a harry potter game'

  • JK Rowling was rumored to be against pinball as a bar setting for the IP

    medium confidence · Greg: 'there was so much rumor that, you know, JK was so against pinball, you know, being the bar. settings that that sort of thing or at least that's what i'd heard years ago'

  • Harry Potter released in three editions: Collector's Edition (MinaLima), Wizard Edition, and Arcade Edition

    high confidence · Ken: 'we do have a collector's edition, which is that MinaLima artwork-themed edition. You do have a wizard edition, which takes the place of the limited edition, and then you do have an arcade edition'

Notable Quotes

  • “when you kind of have the chance to kind of see a game from be born, essentially, right? So you're going from a licensing pitch to an approval to a concept to multiple Whitewoods, different iterations. You see the progression. It's it's really fun.”

    Greg Bone @ early — Describes the satisfaction of witnessing a game's development from concept to release

  • “I think that it was just exactly what you said i i think that it was that next evolution uh you know the other games that the predecessors other than wise was i mean they were good they were fine it was nice but but gnr was you know it came back to that that thing to where okay this is something we haven't seen before”

    Ken Cromwell @ mid — Articulates GNR as an evolutionary leap for JJP after solid but unremarkable predecessors

  • “Pinball moment is something that happens in a game where it's worthy of you trying to show somebody that moment when they come see the game for the first time. You want to say, hey, watch when it does this.”

    Ken Cromwell @ mid — Defines the core appeal of pinball design philosophy—theatrical presentation moments

  • “this is if there was a pinball machine in the world of Harry Potter this is what that game would look like This is what would be a Hogwarts to me.”

    Greg Bone @ late — Explains the thematic positioning of the MinaLima Collector's Edition as an in-universe artifact

  • “When we play pinball, we want to be a part of that world. And when you encompass and help bring those video clips, the call-outs, the sounds, the music to me, now I feel like I am a part of that world.”

    Greg Bone @ mid — Articulates the philosophy that LCD integration and immersive assets are essential to theme resonance

  • “to me, that's what the Keith Elwin effect always was, was Keith's games just play different from a lot of other games. He's doing new things. Eric did that with this game.”

    Greg Bone @ late — Compares Eric Minier's shot design innovation to the legendary Keith Elwin standard

  • “I think that if they can, you know Create those moments in the game and bring this code full circle, it kind of is a revolutionary moment in pinball. I really do, because it's just a gorgeous game.”

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonGreg BonepersonEric MinierpersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyJoe KatzpersonHarry Potter Pinballgame

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Early code releases (0.72/0.73) allow community feedback on design elements; hosts expect code evolution toward 1.0 may incorporate additional movie clip integration based on player feedback

    medium · Ken: 'with earlier code, this is something that can evolve. This is something that doesn't necessarily need to evolve' regarding LCD integration

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts express confidence in Joe Katz's commitment to code refinement post-launch; expect ongoing evolution of feature set based on player feedback; positive reception to game's core design despite early code limitations

    high · Ken: 'I'm excited to see how this code of you know uh evolves going into version 1.0'; Greg's assessment of game as 'gorgeous' and 'best shooting game'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Harry Potter positioned as A++ license comparable to Star Wars in cultural weight; represents statement release for JJP in demonstrating capability to handle major IP; potential evolutionary moment for pinball design

    high · Ken: 'Harry Potter, I think, is another a plus plus license for pinball' alongside Star Wars; Greg's prediction of 'revolutionary moment in pinball' if code execution delivers

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Previous Eric Minier games (especially GNR) critiqued for adequate but unexceptional shot geometry despite exceptional theme integration; Harry Potter marks meaningful inflection point in shot design mastery

    high · Ken: 'I think it's a great game. It didn't shoot very good' on GNR; contrast with 'this has got to be his best shooting game' on HP

  • ?

    design_innovation: Eric Minier demonstrates significant improvement in shot geometry and gameplay fluidity compared to previous titles (GNR, Godfather); game plays noticeably faster and more responsive than typical JJP games

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.167

0:00
Hey, what's going on pinball and welcome. It's episode two. That is zero two of the flipping out pinball podcast. My name is Ken Cromwell with me today. Greg bone. Greg, what's up? How are you, bud? I'm always doing good. I don't think I ever have a bad day. You had a bad day once and i think it was three or four years ago i don't recall what it was but i remember it was pretty shocking so it's good that you're still you're riding the positivity streak i i appreciate that yeah every three or four years that that's good um but you know i'm a complete liar i have a lot of bad days yeah you know what it's how you react to the bad days honestly that's absolute truth but you know what today is a good day because we're talking about pinball we're playing pinball we're alive and uh it's harry potter day yeah yeah you know we wanted to take a quick second thank all the listeners for the reaction to episode one it's good hearing encouragement from you know our supporters and some old friends that i haven't heard from in a long time i'm sure uh the same for you greg and you know if you haven't already done so we encourage you to like or follow or share the podcast on youtube facebook instagram wherever your favorite socials are you can search flipping out pinball podcast and just kind of give us a like follow or share you'll know when new episodes are updating if you go ahead and you search us in your favorite podcast app. Do you have a podcast app that you use, Greg, where it just kind of has all your podcasts in one spot? I'm mainly with Apple.
1:32
Okay, okay. I use Podcast Addict on Android. It's cool. I've got all my podcasts there. You're one of those Android users. You're kind of an outcast. Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. Last episode, we were talking about Predator and our first impressions and kind of getting it out there. We did a little bit of a recap on that episode that you can find over on our Patreon if you want to give a search over there. But Harry Potter is the focus of today, today's episode. And obviously polarizing title, right? Like a lot of people have been waiting for this IP to come to pinball form. Long wait, long wait, long wait. Right. So we finally see it. Well, and it's something it's a title, too, that I don't know, you know, just because there was so much surrounding, you know, whether that the rights would ever be released, you know, because there was so much rumor that, you know, JK was so against pinball, you know, being the bar. settings that that sort of thing or at least that's what i'd heard years ago sort of thing so it was almost like hey you know we're never going to see this title we're not going to see it it's not going to come out because she's just not ever going to relinquish the rights to it um so you know it was one of those things that was very surprising to me which you which is one of the things that i'm super excited to sit down and talk to you about because even though we're friends uh you know we haven't gone in great depth about this game uh and you being there on you know You were there through the entire design of everything about this game. You were front line there with this game. So, you know, it's kind of exciting to talk to you about those sort of things. And then, you know, you obviously knew before most anyone that you guys had secured this title and these rights. Yeah, it's a wild ride. I mean, whenever you kind of have the chance to kind of see a game from be born, essentially, right? So you're going from a licensing pitch to an approval to a concept to multiple Whitewoods, different iterations. You see the progression. It's it's really fun. It's very it's very unique. And it's such a sense of fulfillment and elation to be able to see what all these creators have done on a game title for maybe 18 months or two years to see the thing actually just kind of come into the public domain and watch people's reactions for the first time. It's extremely rewarding. And Harry Potter, look, when you're considering like a plus plus licenses, Star Wars comes to mind. Yes. You know, it's it's one of those titles where it's like everybody knows Star Wars. Everybody loves Star Wars. Harry Potter, I think, is another a plus plus license for pinball. And I guess what I what I wanted to do is instead of deep dive in the game. right because at this point i would assume most people that are interested in the game have been had a chance to kind of see uh maybe some gameplay streams and if you haven't seen the flipping out gameplay stream with joel and jared check that out i was really kind of looking at maybe covering some things that that people might have missed or that people might not have been aware about but i also want to go ahead and talk about our general impressions of the game as as an overview without really going to talking about every yeah right right going too far because i mean look i think a lot of what we would talk about would just kind of rehash what other people have have have already spoken about great but when you first saw the game because everybody knew it was coming right jersey jack pinball had announced hey this game is in the works and and essentially they started teasing that game on new year's day of uh of this year so it's it's been about six months there was a social media post that went up and uh you know essentially let me stop you real quick here we go so how long i mean i know that you said you know you know kind of you know 18 months two years possibly eric the team working on the game when did when did you find out that the license was secured how long ago did you guys know well actually let's take it a step further back when when did you first hear jack or anyone talking about hey you know this is a license that we need to go after this is a license that we need to get sure i mean i i always knew that was a license and that was an ip that eric menyer who's the designer of the game was over the moon about right it was his dream theme and when i came over to jersey jack it was like april 2020 i mean they were already he was already talking about how cool it would be to do a harry potter game honestly i don't remember exactly when i knew that we had secured it but i knew that it was being pursued and ironically i think at one point that joe kamikow uh post that went out i remember that i think at that time and i'm trying to remember i think at that time i i kind of knew that there was some dialogue maybe happening between the licensor and Jersey Jack Pinball. And then when that post came out, it was pretty shocking to me because I was like, one, I was like, is that even a professional thing to do? Like, I don't know because I know that. I mean, that's important information. Should that even be out there? But it's like, you know, I wasn't sure either way. Eventually, I think Jack told me, hey, you know, we have Potter. And when I had, you know, when it was confirmed from him, I was like, all right, game on. I mean, this is going to be this is huge, because if you look back at impactful releases for Jersey Jack pinball, obviously Wizard of Oz kind of brought pinball into the modern day era. Oh, definitely. It was something that nobody had seen before, you know, a game or hadn't seen for a while, you know, a game of that magnitude that was that that jam packed. Yeah, I would agree. I mean, it was just like something that somebody had never seen before. And at the time, it was priced, what was it, $6,700 or something? Which got them in trouble, though, because that was still a little bit too low of a price point. Sure. And at that time, I don't even know. Jack wasn't really as concerned about getting rich off of the sales of that game. I think it was more of he wanted to show everybody that they could make a game that people were asking for. Almost a luxury boutique game. It was just like one of those things. Like, you know, you're going from your normal, you know, Corolla or nice car to, hey, you know, we're going to show you what a luxury sedan looks like now. You know, we're going to show you a top of the line Lexus BMW sort of thing. Maybe even a Bentley. It was kind of a Bentley at that time. It was at the time. Yeah, 100 percent. You know, and you look at the subsequent releases from there and you had Hobbit and Dialed In, Pirates of the Caribbean. Like those those games are solid. they're good games but then again i thought there was like a revitalization and maybe it was just some of it was circumstance going into kobe but when guns and roses hit that was another thing where it's like in the industry wow this was a spectacle this was heralded by some as like hey this is the greatest dude i don't think it had anything to do with kobe i mean kobe obviously boosted sales but i don't think it had anything to do with that particular game i think that it was just exactly what you said i i think that it was that next evolution uh you know the other games that the predecessors other than wise was i mean they were good they were fine it was nice but but gnr was you know it came back to that that thing to where okay this is something we haven't seen before you know this integration is out of this world like we just have not seen a game ever from any manufacturer that has you know encompassed so much of a world under glass this it's that's that's where that evolution you know that that's what brought jersey jack back to the forefront of the pinball world to me right right right and and you've got to take into consideration i mean you had pat lawler there at the time i mean joe balser was the designer i think on on wizard of oz but pat lawler came aboard with uh dialed in uh so eric is there pumping along he's got pirates that comes out then he's got guns and roses that comes out and guns and roses was a huge seller for jersey jack and they've gone on record as saying that's that's their number one selling title of all time so the anticipation for harry potter and knowing eric was on that game um man i don't know what to say other than i think there's a lot of pressure right it's like you can either deliver something that's gonna blow everybody out of the water which is what you want to do with every single release you could deliver something that's serviceable where it's like okay it kind of scratches the itch but it's not anything that i would say is uh revolutionizing pinball or you just drop the ball you fumble it and people are disappointed and they scratch their heads and wish that they didn't waste well and that pressure had to you know it had to be immense because you know he came off of you know you go from pirates which you know again you know i kind of said gnr i mean pirates was a fantastic pinball machine eric did a lot of amazing stuff with that uh but you go from pirates to gnr which is you know eric's got to be riding high off of that uh and then you go into godfather which godfather i mean you know most people that give godfather a chance they really like godfather you know they enjoy the hell out of it you know honestly like one of the better games, but it was still Godfather, you know, not, not necessarily the best selling game, not necessarily the best received game, because again, it was Godfather who was clamoring for a Godfather pinball machine. I think that's exactly right. Right. I mean, it's, it's hard when you step into the box and you're down a strike or two. And again, just because people weren't necessarily asking for Godfather. So when a Jersey Jack pinball title is coming out, they're not as frequent as like a Stern pinball was putting out games, you know, every few months. you're kind of waiting for that big surprise. And for the first time, Godfather didn't hit that from a title-wise. But you're right. I thought that game shoots well. And if you've never had an opportunity to jump on the game because you were disappointed or the theme didn't call to you, I would recommend jumping on it. So that's what I'm saying. That pressure for Eric had to be even more immense coming off of that title, knowing that he's got one of the biggest IPs, one of the biggest properties in all of pinball, and just feeling that pressure of, okay, I have to create something new. I have to create something that is going to be memorable. I have to create something that is fun. I have to create something that is going to sell and not disappoint the community. And you have to look at it from multiple different angles because the company and Eric and his team, they've got to meet the criteria for the pinball enthusiasts that are just general people that like pinball. then you've got to meet the expectation of the collector, somebody that wants something fancy and nice in their collection. I think just as important, you've got to just be able to represent the IP where those people that are diehard Harry Potter fans think that they're doing a good job with it. Well, and that's where something like this, though, Ken, this is where something like this, where it's almost a double-edged sword. Okay, you've got one of the biggest IPs ever that is just crosses, is planetary. you know that it's a worldwide phenomenon and so when you create something like this you're super excited about that but then at the same time how do you create something that's going to meet the majority of the people's expectations because everybody has a completely different vision of what this game should be or what should be encompassed in it you know because the world is so vast of harry potter i mean there's no way that you're ever going to put everything in And so it's like at the same time that you've got that great IP, you're battling against expectations. That's got to be so incredibly difficult.

  • MinaLima artists are core architects behind the Harry Potter franchise's visual world

    high confidence · Ken: 'MinaLima, they're one of the artists behind the whole Harry Potter franchise, essentially. So from everything from props to the whole world of Harry Potter, even the theme parks, that's all MinaLima inspired'

  • Joe Katz released a Willy Wonka code 2.0 on his own personal time after the game shipped

    high confidence · Ken: 'after Willy Wonka had been released for years, went in on his own personal time after taking some feedback and came up with a re-release of the code version 2.0'

    • Greg Bone @ late — Predicts Harry Potter could be a revolutionary moment if code evolution delivers on design promise

  • “For me, it's the evolution of Eric Minier as a pinball designer. And, again, we talked about his previous titles...In this instance, though, with Harry Potter, I just feel like this has got to be his best shooting game.”

    Ken Cromwell @ late — Frames Harry Potter as marking a career inflection point for Minier in shot design mastery

    • Jack Danger
    person
    Guns N' Rosesgame
    Wizard of Ozgame
    MinaLimaorganization
    Keith Elwinperson
    Pat Lawlorperson
    Joe Balserperson
    The Hobbitgame
    Flippin' Out Pinball Podcastorganization
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Godfathergame
    Willy Wonkagame
    Toy Storygame
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Ballycompany
    JK Rowlingperson
    Zach Minneyperson

    high · Greg states: 'the game flips better than almost any other game that they have...It does not feel like a JJP...more reminiscent of a stern or a ballet' and 'this has got to be his best shooting game'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Debate between hosts about LCD/movie clip integration philosophy; Greg advocates for prominent use of theatrical assets and ball-holding pauses to create immersion; Ken counters that Hobbit demonstrates the benchmark for this approach

    high · Extensive discussion of LCD implementation in Harry Potter vs aspirational model of Hobbit; Greg: 'you need that ball to be held some...you need a little bit of that pause'

  • $

    market_signal: Harry Potter release represents validation of JJP's design evolution and Eric Minier's maturation as designer; narrative of pressure/expectation leading to breakthrough achievement; positions HP as potential inflection point for boutique manufacturer's standing

    high · Ken frames HP as test of Minier's evolution; Greg states 'revolutionary moment in pinball' potential; both acknowledge extreme pressure from major IP and sales expectations

  • ?

    licensing_signal: JK Rowling licensing for pinball was subject to years of speculation about willingness to permit bar/nightlife venue placement; eventual licensing to JJP marks significant acquisition after rumored reluctance

    medium · Greg: 'there was so much rumor that, you know, JK was so against pinball, you know, being the bar. settings...it's not going to come out because she's just not ever going to relinquish the rights to it'

  • $

    market_signal: Three-tier edition pricing strategy with Collector's Edition (MinaLima art style) positioned as premium collector piece; MinaLima packaging generates polarized community response but ultimately viewed as successful differentiation

    high · Ken: 'The MinaLima artwork was polarizing...If they were looking for an impact with that Collector Edition package, that MinaLima package delivered, it was impactful'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Joe Katz serves as lead programmer/rules designer on Harry Potter; known for post-release dedication to code refinement (Willy Wonka 2.0 on personal time); positioned as passionate and quality-focused

    high · Ken: 'Joe Katz, who's lead programmer over there at Jersey Jack Pinball on Harry Potter, the guy's a workhorse...after Willy Wonka had been released for years, went in on his own personal time'

  • ?

    announcement: Harry Potter Pinball officially released by Jersey Jack Pinball in three editions (Collector's/MinaLima, Wizard, Arcade); represents major IP acquisition after years of speculation about licensing availability

    high · Ken and Greg discuss the release in detail; Greg mentions seeing gameplay streams; three edition tiers explicitly described

  • ?

    product_strategy: Harry Potter game design explicitly incorporates eight movies into single release rather than spreading across multiple machines; design choice reflects both opportunity and complexity in condensing IP material

    high · Greg: 'you're taking eight movies, right? So we've got eight movies that are in one game, and I don't know if I've ever seen anything like that before'

    • 12:55
    Yeah, I mean, it's fair. Yeah, and so you're taking eight movies, right? So we've got eight movies that are in one game, and I don't know if I've ever seen anything like that before, and that's hard too. And I know at one point during the process I was thinking, does it even make sense to split this up over two or three different pinball machines, right? So you've got movies two and three and pin one movies, four through six and pin two. And then you've got movies seven and eight and pin three. The unique opportunity that you would have had with that would have been putting a different designer on each of those games. So maybe Eric does the first pin. Steve Ritchie does the second pin. Mark Seiden does the third, because if there's something that didn't call to you personally from the designer's approach of a certain game, you could always find another designer that maybe did call you a little bit more. and you had that opportunity. Plus, for people that are just diehards, you could probably be making pinball, Harry Potter pinball machines for the next five or six years You know I wasn for better or for worse I was always an advocate for that Like I always thought that that was an exceptional idea Just because when you've got an IP that's so big and you've got so much to fit into it, just even from a business standpoint, milk this thing for all that you can. You know what I'm saying? And, you know, I know that, you know, we had discussed just a little while back about that same thing and, you know, using different designers and stuff like that. But, you know, it's kind of like what we discussed, like you, you fall into, okay, now you've, you've got three different designers that are battling it out for each other. No matter who you are artistically. Just like the good old days, Greg, the good old days of the designers. Yes. Yeah. And teams battling it out. So that's the thing is now you've got, you've got three designers in house on the same game in a sense that, you know, Ego is for any artist because I look at those engineers and I look at those designers as artists. I don't look at them any different than anyone else that's creating actual art. They're artists to me. So along with artists come egos. So I can't imagine it's like my game is better than yours or mine is getting more sales. You know what I'm saying? They don't even have to speak it, but you know it's in their minds. You know what I'm saying? So I can see the conflict. You want to have that competitive nature to you. I mean, you have to be in that sort of a situation, and you have to have some ego. You've got to have some bravado. I mean, you could cross the line with it. But, yeah, that's huge. The other thing I was thinking, too, is had you spread that out over three games over like a half decade, you're not Jersey Jack Pinball anymore. You're just Harry Potter Pinball Company. That's what you're making for about half a decade.
    15:36
    But I'm like you, man. I think all three would have sold. I really do because I think that there's enough diehard Potterheads out there, man, that honestly you would have kept – it might have trickled off by game three a little bit. But it still would have been, to me, pretty profitable for the company. Again, lots of – there's a lot of obstacles. There's a lot of reasons why you wouldn't want to do that. But I did always like that idea. So you're cool with the approach of, hey, we're going to take eight movies.
    16:06
    I don't even know how many hours that is. like 20, 30 hours of actual motion picture and throw it into one singular game, one singular release. In hindsight now, kind of seeing how that game's been presented and so far with earlier code, I think it's like 0.72, 0.73, something like that. Do you think that the direction that they've taken is paying off? I mean, I think it's fine. I mean, I think that, you know, we don't really have any choice. And I think that you do, for better or for worse, you kind of do have to go that route. I think it's a big risk doing three games. Like I said, there are a lot of pitfalls and stuff in that. But at the same time, I mean, I think it's going to be fine. But it's an awful, awful lot of material to fit into one game. But, you know, if you do it right, you pick the particular moments out of those films, you make those into good modes. You know, because you can make it work.
    16:58
    But, yeah, I don't know. Well, I mean, there's been talking points, too, about the utilization of the assets. I know for a while there's been a running commentary and requests from a portion of the community that says, hey, look, we would really appreciate if you went ahead and you took these movie clips and you implemented the audio from those movie clips and you sync them up and you kind of had them more prevalent on that 27 inch LCD screen. And some of the early indications that we saw was that there was some of that in there, but it didn't really meet the expectations for those that are that are really wanting that. And again, with earlier code, this is something that can evolve. This is something that doesn't necessarily need to evolve. But, I mean, do you have one way or the other when you're playing the game? Do you want to see that on the LCD? I disagree about that. You know, I think it has to evolve. I think you need that. I think that one of the greatest, I won't say it's the greatest shooting game, it's still floaty, and that just shows what things like this do. But The Hobbit was one of the most integrated pinball machines I've ever seen from that standpoint. And to me, that's what makes that game great. Again, it's a very floaty game. It's fine. It's whatever. But the rules and the integration of that LCD screen and those movie clips, you just don't get any more perfect than that. And that, for some reason, J.J.P. kind of got away from in some titles. And I don't understand that because you do. You need that ball. I know that we've discussed this with Zach too. You know, Zach and I have discussed this in depth quite a few times. But you really need that ball to be held some. You know, you don't want to break your flow. You don't want to kill what's going on in the game. But you also, you need a little bit of that pause. You need that to pull you into that game. You need to take advantage of those movie clips. Again, you know, the thing is, this is why theme resonates. This is why it matters. It's not just a piece of solid artwork sitting there. Like you want to feel like you are a part of that world. And the way that you do that is through those clips. Like, that's why I'm buying the game. I want to feel like I'm in the wizarding world of Harry Potter. Okay. So the counter argument though is, hey, if you want to experience the Harry Potter movie, like put in the Blu-ray and watch it on your TV. You got 30 hours of Blu-ray footage. No, because we're all there. That's not why I buy pinball. We want to play. We want to be immersed in it. You know, watching the film is fine. We are a spectator. We are a spectator when we are watching that film. When we play pinball, we want to be a part of that world. We want to play in that world. And when you encompass and help bring those video clips, the call-outs, the sounds, the music to me, now I feel like I am a part of that world. You know what I'm saying? Like a movie, I am a spectator. Yeah, I understand. This, I am a player in that world. Well, yeah, it's all about how you deliver the assets. Now, I don't want to hear something looped over and over and over where it becomes grating. But you talked about the game holding the ball to present to you a moment. And, you know, this is something that from the very beginning of time for me in my collecting with pinball or my enthusiasm for pinball in general, the pinball moments are what get me. And the pinball moments, I've said it a million times, so I'm a broken record on this. Pinball moment is something that happens in a game where it's worthy of you trying to show somebody that moment when they come see the game for the first time. You want to say, hey, watch when it does this. And it could be something simple like a tack from Mars strobe light multiball, or it could be something, you know, a lot more substantial. Some of these light shows, they are incredible. And to be able to kind of set the tone, you brought up Hobbit. 100% agree. The theatrical kind of presentation is in a lot of ways unparalleled of any other game that I've ever played. And I think that that aspect of Hobbit makes up for maybe what some people would perceive as some of its shortcomings. And in the end, it's just it's an amazing experience. So we'll see what happens. I do know for a fact. So Joe Katz, who's lead programmer over there at Jersey Jack Pinball on Harry Potter, the guy's a workhorse. The guy is so dedicated and so passionate about bringing the best game. This is a guy that after Willy Wonka had been released for years, went in on his own personal time after taking some feedback and came up with a re-release of the code version 2.0. So this is a guy that's passionate and understands that you want to have the greatest game possible. He wants to be proud on what he put out there. uh so i'm excited to see how this code of you know uh evolves going into version 1.0 and when we talk about general evolution of the code we were talking about evolution of pinball do you think that this harry potter game is it evolutionary to you as far as propelling pinball forward is this a release that kind of just meets this the general standard or status quo man you know so what's the impact of this game as a whole? I think, I think from a design standpoint, it is, um, well, and I think it's an evolutionary moment for Jersey Jack, at least at the very least it's an evolution for them because the, the game, the game flips better than almost any other game that they have. you know, that this game is quick. It is fast. It does not feel like a JJP. Uh, you know, it's more reminiscent of a stern or a ballet, something that you're used to playing. You know, it doesn't have that float to it. It doesn't have that slow. You know, and I know they addressed the flippers. What, back on Toy Story, that was kind of the start of the addressing of kind of weaker flippers. But this still just feels like it took it to another level, the way that it plays. So I think in that standpoint, it's evolutionary to JJP. I think Eric has a lot of really great stuff in this game You know, that cube, which we can go into You know, all the design, you know, here, soon, or later But you know what I'm saying Like, all of that stuff is really cool It's really integrated really well The Quidditch match, all that stuff You know, and again, it's nothing at all against Joe It's like you said, Joe works hard He's a great dude But I think that if they can, you know Create those moments in the game and bring this code full circle, it kind of is a revolutionary moment in pinball. I really do, because it's just a gorgeous game. It's designed and laid out well. It just plays very different from any other game. It's kind of like, to me, that's what the Keith Elwin effect always was, was Keith's games just play different from a lot of other games. He's doing new things. Eric did that with this game. And I mean, Eric's done it in previous games, but Eric, this game shoots very well. Very, very well. I'm so happy to hear you say that because when I was considering the evolution of the game or is this evolutionary for Jersey Jack Pinball, for me, it's the evolution of Eric Minier as a pinball designer. And, again, we talked about his previous titles. And some of his, for instance, like Guns N' Roses, Full Transparency, I think it's a great game. It didn't shoot very good. For me, it's what he did more.
    24:24
    Yeah, so it's not that it didn't shoot very good. It's just that it was satisfactory. The shots weren't something where I would clamor over, but it worked well for me. It was his approach with the theme integration and the entire presentation of that package of a Guns N' Roses themed pinball machine. I don't know what he could have done any better with any of that. So I think that's where Eric receives a lot of credit is not so much with the geometry or shot geometry of Guns N' Roses, but just overseeing the whole presentation of the game because it's spectacular. In this instance, though, with Harry Potter, I just feel like this has got to be his best shooting game. Arguably, Jersey Jack Pinball's best shooting game. And I'm happy for him because, again, pressure on the title. I would assume it's got to be there. You want to meet expectations. You want to exceed expectations. And to have something that shoots that well, I'm super pleased and happy for him. Oh, me too. Because that was the only critique that you were hearing about, Eric, was just like, okay. It's like Guns N' Roses is remarkable. But, I mean, eh, shoot's okay. you know nothing nothing to write home about um you know godfather was quite a bit better he did a lot but but like you said the geometry geometry on this game he got it down it's a smooth fun game it's surprising uh you know all the other mechs and toys that he's very well known for the theme integration is all there but he finally nailed the shots and the fun the gameplay fun not just the you know the the world but he just he made a great shooting game just a fun good shooting game you know so i'm like you like yeah i'm super super happy for the guy like beyond so the game when the game came out the uh because there's three versions of the game right usually typically the last i don't know most ever released with the exception of uh recently guns and roses you've got three levels of jjp games which typically would be the collector's edition the limited edition would be the two core units, and then occasionally there's a standard edition. With this release, we do have a collector's edition, which is that MinaLima artwork-themed edition. You do have a wizard edition, which takes the place of the limited edition, and then you do have an arcade edition, which would be more of the standard edition. The MinaLima artwork was polarizing. The MinaLima artwork is the illustration that's on the exterior cabinet artwork, and for some people, they didn't know what MinaLima was. They didn't understand what was happening with MinaLima.
    26:51
    MinaLima, they're one of the artists behind the whole Harry Potter franchise, essentially. So from everything from props to the whole world of Harry Potter, even the theme parks, that's all MinaLima inspired. They built that core from the ground up. So then to see that, those assets and that style come into play on the collector's edition was, it was polarizing. If they were looking for an impact with that Collector Edition package, that MinaLima package delivered, it was impactful. I don't think you're wrong, man. When I first heard about it, I was like, okay, I don't know about this. But after seeing it, it's absolutely stunning. And the way that I put it, you've got two preferences. A lot of people like what the arcade and the wizard bring for the artwork cabinet and head-wise. Just because you get to see the characters, it's Harry Potter-ish. but the way that I always kind of put the CE package is hey you know this isn just Harry Potter this is if there was a pinball machine in the world of Harry Potter this is what that game would look like This is what would be a Hogwarts to me. Yeah, no, you're totally right. Absolutely. I know that it's important for those guys to have a collector piece, something worthy of a collector piece, something that's going to command your attention when you walk into a game room, something that looks outside of the norm, something that's superior. and that MinaLima package is pretty sick. And if you look at it from left to right across the exterior of the cabinet, it's presenting the whole story, the chronological order of those movies and books from left to right. Oh, I didn't know that. If you really take a look, yeah, it's like a timeline, which is a really cool kind of Easter egg thing. And, you know, I think one of the core messaging situations was to kind of let people know that were just casuals walking up to this game for the first time, what the importance and the significance of that MinaLima art package is. And, you know, because for me, I mean, full transparency, I'm not a big Harry Potter guy before, you know, Eric started working on the game. I had never even seen the movies. I hadn't read the books or anything like that. So when I first saw the MinaLima art. That is blasphemy. Yeah, I'm sorry. And I was excited to talk to you about this game. And now, look, you done disappointed me, Ken. This is terrible. I was like, hey, it wouldn't be the first time. I'm disappointing everybody these days. It is what it is. But, you know, when I first saw it, I remember my first impression was, that is beautiful, but what is that? I don't even know what that is. And I just think that there's some people that they want to see characters on the side of their cabinets. They want to see things that they gravitate to, that they're familiar to. And for me, like, if that MinaLima cabinet without the Harry Potter name on the back glass, if it was just sitting out in the wild, I wouldn't be like, oh, that must be a Harry Potter theme. So it's cool to see those that were on the fence about the approach to the art package, learning more about what the significance is. And they're coming around and they're like, hey, this is something that kind of was off-putting to me at first. And I would have preferred maybe the Wizard or Arcade Edition package, which does feature those characters. And it's the same art package. But now they're like, hey, now that I understand how kind of cool and special this is, I really would prefer to have that. Well, but I think the majority of the community were in the boat you were in, aside from that you don't know anything about Harry Potter. but the people that do know about Harry Potter even I don't know if they knew the significance or where that art package came from because you know the thing is is you know you've got people that are custom to the books that read the books and saw the movies but you also have a very large amount of Potter fans that have only seen the movies a lot of them have not read the books and sort of that you know they're they're mainly just being based off the film they're just not readers so i think that that was even more kind of you know almost in the same boat you were in of like what the hell is this like this makes no sense to me i i don't understand it yeah uh but it's like you said man just the fact that it was so gorgeous i i don't know how to explain it like of why that it's gravitating i just think that it's a beautiful pin i don't even know if it has to do with the significance necessarily like that you had mentioned i think it's just that it's just beautiful yeah exactly without a doubt it's one of the most unique pinball art packages of all time I can't remember another game that really is strikingly, I don't even know what the term is. It draws your attention. You want to look at it. When you see it in person, it's cool, too. I mean, everything is kind of like gold flaked. It's behind a radcale, which is cool. And the radcale has a little bit of a different, instead of that high gloss radcale finish, this time they went with more of a matte velvet textured finish. And it just allows you to kind of see the artwork with a little bit more depth. whereas the glare on that gloss was kind of detracting from some of the visual effects of that. So it's really well done. I like it a lot. I'm in on an arcade edition just because of cost, just up front. But I was happier with that too because I've read the books. I'm familiar with the covers of the books.
    31:45
    Our generation was kind of that early forefront of when the Potter books first came out and gained popularity. So I was an early adapter to that, you know, read the books very early on before the first film even came out or what particular books were released at that time.
    32:00
    And so I was just very much in that. I want the characters on there. But now after seeing that CE and that CE being out for so long, like I keep toying with going up to that CE just because it has really grown on me about how beautiful that is. and I just like that. I don't know why, but it's pulling me away from that character-driven aspect. Yeah, it's a centerpiece. Uh-oh, you're going down the rabbit hole now. You're going from 9999 to 15G. It makes no sense for me to do that. No sense.
    32:40
    No, it makes sense. You've got to make dollars for it to make sense in some ways. Because, look, that arcade edition, right? arguably one of the best bangs for your buck in all of pinball. Oh, 99, 99. Yeah. You have the same play experience across all three models in the sense that there's not anything that's geo geometrically different as far as the, the shots, the sculpts are identical. The, the, the toys and mechs are identical. You know what you're lacking in that arcade edition comes a lot in some of the more, you know, like in visit glass, which is the anti-glare glass is taken out of that game instead of a back glass you're getting a trans light exterior volume control is not included in the arcade edition um inner art plays is not included the toppers are not included so it's it's things like that which are in my opinion like more cosmetic amenities um yes but as far as the core gameplay it's identical right yes and that's that's what not a jgp fan or not a jjp fan whatever like you have to give it to them to have a game that's so jam-packed and have three different models but to not strip the playfield down like i was so surprised by it because i thought it was literally going to be a guns and roses scenario again and i you know i know that they got away from that after that that game but i also think at the same time because they removed that upper playfield and everything was so barren on that game when they did that that that's that's why that standard didn't sell i think that if they would have kept you know the same upper playfield everything the same on gnr that standard would have sold a lot better now again price point those games are way different than where they are at now but i am i'm just so glad because i did not see it coming and i don't think a lot of people did because talking to customers and stuff when they come in and they're like oh so what's the difference and you just literally give them cosmetic differences for the most part they're blown away that that it's the same same game same game well i mean and if you think about it too i mean just going deeper into that there are three sculpts on that play field just off the top of my head where you've got the sorting hat sculpt in the lower right hand corner by the where the kind of where the shooter's at you've got the quidditch player which is up in the middle and then you've got the death eater which is up on the left those are all sculpts those could have been flat plastics in that arcade edition no problem i don't think anybody would have second guessed oh i think you could even take the uh the the whomping willow or whatever in the car i think i think ultimately you could have seriously just point place the plastic on top of that as well and you know gotten away with it and cheapened out um you know 10 grand is still not nine nine nine nine is still not you know it's still not cheap but i mean for what you're getting man that's that's a hell of a deal on that to me i for sure and and not to get not to get aggressive with it but if if you've ever had the excuse of not wanting to get into a jersey jackpin ball machine because of the entry position of cost. I mean, there's really no excuse at $9.99 for you to try to get in there. And you're getting a great game. You're not getting anything that's lesser. So kudos to them for knocking that out of the park. I'm so stoked about it. I'm so freaking happy. I cannot wait to get mine. I am so freaking excited to get it. While we're on the topic of artwork with the MinaLima package, there's been some banter or some conversation along the lines of what the approach was on the art package with the playfield artwork. And that was, you know, some people felt that there was some artificial intelligence that was involved in the creation of the art process on the playfield. There were certain areas of the playfield that looked like they had some artifacts or plainly exposed that there was some artificial intelligence that was used. And then, you know, since then. And in all fairness.
    36:32
    Outside of your personal thoughts of of artificial intelligence and how it correlates to artwork and artists and pinball, we can get into that. But the instances in which these were highlighted are they're not immediately obvious. They had to be pointed out to me even to kind of see what people were talking about. They're small in that instance. But I think for some, it's more about about the principle. And I'm paying for a high end product and I don't want any corners to be cut. Um, things like that. When you saw this was hitting, what were you, what were you thinking? Was it, is this off putting to you that there might be artificial intelligence used through the, either the creation or as a tool or, or, I mean, cause it's, it's still very new in the sense that I don't know that we've really had to see this in pinball as much now, whether or not that's artificial intelligence or AI is being used to help artists or as a tool or to create compositions. I don't, I don't know enough about it. I think that it's such a touchy subject with people. And I think some people are just, I think some people are full of shit. Some people are utilizing some of this banter back and forth for their own self notoriety. They're using it for, to make themselves feel better because they, you know, are discussing something that they feel is important or digging. You know, I think there's a lot of aspects that go into it. Uh, and it's something that we could sit here and we could probably do a whole another hour discussing, but he just, the first initial thing when I saw this and people talking about it and the pictures posted and stuff, I'm, you know, obviously I'm like, eh, okay. Yeah. There's, there's something going on there. I mean, there's something going on. Yeah. I think it was, it was evident, but you know, that, that being said in itself, I didn't give a fuck about it. I truly did not. And I know that that's going to get met with some criticism because I understand a lot of these people because a lot of the comments I've read and so forth are from graphic designers. They're from artists. They're from people. And I wholeheartedly understand not wanting AI to come into their field and to take their jobs and to compete with them. I don't want to see that. I like hand-drawn art. I like that. I like the composition of it. I like an artist. This is sort of off-topic, but it's not in a sense. There's a local magic shop that has a little stage, everything else in it, brings in some different magicians. The owner is a fantastic magician himself. It's a magic shop. Where the hell do you really see magic shops anymore? So I go down. Oh, you see them for about two months. Yeah, exactly. And then they magically disappear. I knew this guy a long time ago. I was in Magic. But long story short, I try to support that guy because – Wait a second. You were in Magic? Yeah, I was in Magic, yeah. Like actual magician Magic, not the cards Magic. Yeah, I loved Magic at one point. So you were involved as an enthusiast or you were performing Magic? No, I never performed. I was just an enthusiast. Oh, I thought we were going to get some old YouTube clips of you going, up and saw some ladies in half or something. I know, my little wand and my rabbit. It would have been great. I'll tell you what, I would love to see you perform some magic. I'd pull a little rabbit out of the hat or something like that. I'd be down. You know what? This weekend, I'm going to perform some magic and I'm going to send it to you. I'm going to record some magic and send you magic tricks. I want to see some sleight of hand. Because I still have a lot of magic tricks and stuff. But long story short, we don't want to bore the public. I support this guy. I'll go down and I'll buy some tricks still. There was one time, we do some donations to a local children's hospital and stuff and for some needy stuff around Christmas time. So again, I went down and bought a bunch of, you know, five, $10 magic tricks from him and stuff. And I tried to support him because without him succeeding, we won't see those things anymore. They're going to be relics. And I love the fact that he took the risk and he's got this magic shop and he's succeeding and flourishing. And I want to keep those things around. So I support those things. Yeah, same thing with these artists. That's nice. Yeah. I want to keep these artists around. So I understand that. But also we have to come to the reality that AI, it is the future and there's no stopping it until the government or someone stops in and puts a stop to it because companies know companies. And I won't say that it's greed. I won't say it's anything else. It just makes logical sense for a lot of them to utilize AI tools. We're seeing it in every aspect of production, everything across multiple things. It's not just artists. It's not just these artisans that are losing their jobs. The reason that that's to me is in the forefront of our minds is because it's readily available for all of us. You know, we're not particularly using AI to code something. We're not using AI for automation. We're not using AI and bots to do a lot of things that we're not used to. But most all of us can sit down and create graphics with it. We can create art with what is at our disposal or not at our disposal as people. So I think that that's also why it's very readily available. And there's a lot of artists out there. There's a lot of, you know, the struggling artist thing. There a lot of artists out there that are working on things So I think that that why it hits so hard in this aspect but at the same time it doesn bother me um well the other aspect of it too though is it's like all right if you guys just had a and i say you guys i just say any pinball company if a pinball company has ai doing the art package then why don't you're not paying an artist at that point right so why don't you just relay that you know i want those cost savings to reflect in the price if you just have that that has drove me freaking bonkers because i have seen that i know it's driven you i know it like i told you like i i don't know why people keep using that as an excuse okay i can understand that if you feel like you wanted hand or i don't know if that matters i think that most people honestly uh most people would never even tell the difference honestly especially if it was cleaned up all enough people are not going to know the difference out there. Like some things have been said before, fairly certain that AI has already been used in pinball before, prior to this sort of thing. But when you want to get into, hey, you didn't use an artist. I feel like that I paid for this. Where's my cost savings? I just truly break that down and think about it, Ken. And I won't ask you, you might know, you actually might not know at all about the financials of some of these pinball companies and what they're paying their artists. But let's just say, to me this feels like a high number for one game. But I'm just going to say, let's say that they paid them $100,000. It was a $100,000 salary to create the artwork for Harry Potter. I don't think that it's unrealistic to say that this game is going to sell 3,000 units. Do you?
    43:28
    Oh, no, absolutely not. I mean, I think when it's all said and done, I think this will be JJP's biggest seller of all time, surpassing GNR. It might take a couple years, two, three years to do that. Let's say 3,000 units. At 3,000 units with a $100,000 salary, you personally, off the top of your game, would save a whopping $27.
    43:50
    Is that what the math says? Yeah, that's what the math says. So it makes no sense to me when somebody thinks that Jersey Jack saved all of this money. And even that being said, you know, Jesper, Jesper, Jesper Abel. And that being said, Jesper Abel's I mean, you know, we can get into this a little bit, but it seemed he put out a comment the other day discussing the use of AI. And it seems like that the artist was still in full control, hand drew all of the assets. Yeah. But utilized. Go ahead. I was just going to say, to summarize his comment, because it's pretty long, but since you're bringing it up and I'll continue to listen to you flow through your conversation. Basically, he's saying that the Harry Potter machine and all the concerns about the AI and the artwork, he was clarifying that the tools were only used sparingly to support the blending and enhanced handcrafted designs, not to generate full illustrations. So the creative vision prioritized complexity and originality to deliver an emotionally rich, immersive experience for players, while the leadership team wasn't directly involved in the technical art process. I'm sorry, the creative team used all tools with intention and transparency. So that was kind of the summary. And ironically, I used AI to summarize his post. Yeah, but you see what I'm saying? Like, that's an even better situation because, you know, your artist was still utilized. You didn't even take a full job from an artist. Again, I am. Boom. That's what I was going to talk about, too, is is in this instance, at least an artist didn't lose a job. An artist made the decision to utilize A.I. as a tool to help him complete his job. Yes. So exactly. Nobody was paid as far as I know, more or less because there was A.I. It is what it is. But listen, and I can also say this. I'm happy to say it. I've seen the renderings of these of kind of the progression of this play field. I'm not in the art department at JJP. You know, that's led by JP to win on this title. And Jesper was the main artist. But trust me, nobody said, hey, I chat GPT. I need you to go ahead and illustrate a whole Harry Potter pinball play field. And here's the assets. It wasn't like that at all. So there was you know, I can I can now see where it was used as a tool and not necessarily something to, you know, pull the load for the project. I understand where some people are concerned about it. Believe me, I do. I don't know that I feel strongly either way, because at the end of the day, I want to play the game. And and as artwork is important to me and I don't want anybody to feel like their jobs are in jeopardy and I don't want anybody to feel like that their previous artwork was used to. without their consent to help teach this AI, I understand as best as I can. But at the end of the day, you know. Well, and I'm not negating any of those feelings. I know that I just gave a very strong take on it. But I'm not trying to negate any of those things. I understand those. But I personally just don't think it matters at this point on this game. I really don't. And, again, I think the whole thing of passing on cost savings, that that's just kind of the main thing i want to hit on it's just a ridiculous argument on that and and you know let's say that it even was a little bit more money i think in this day and age with inflation with everything that's going on in the world that if a company can save some money what they are doing is they are able to keep prices at the same you know i think we're beyond at this point right now of passing any cost savings on to people those cost savings that a manufacturer are coming i don't care who you are i'm not just talking about jjp i think stern i I think Spooky, I think anybody, if there's ways to cut a little bit of cost that doesn't really hurt the game, that is to be able to keep the games at the current price points.
    47:40
    I don't think that we can pass savings on. If there's a couple hundred dollar savings, that's their ability to keep the game priced at the price that they are, if that makes sense to you. Yeah, no, I get it. It makes sense. We haven't seen a price increase over the last few titles from Jersey Jack Pinball, so that's encouraging. I mean, arguably, there might have been a case where they could have charged a little bit more outside of the whole artwork thing. But, I don't know. It's encouraging. And, again, play the game. Have some fun with it. I think that's what it comes down to. I mean, a lot of these things that people have pointed out, they're very small. I mean, I've looked at this game. I've been up on this game.
    48:20
    None of it bothers me from that aspect. You know, we take everything else out of the equation. We take all of the artists losing jobs. We take out the AI taking over. We take all of these factors out. If you just look at the game, again, you're not going to notice it. The game is too fast. You're playing it. It's all very small. Now, if Harry had like three eyes or something going on in the middle of the play field that's so prominent right by your flippers, okay, I'm going to be mad. Yeah. No, you're right. You're right. I mean, and that game, we had games we were playing. We were playing those games forever, you know, before they finally went to production and, you know, having all those eyes on there. But to be fair, nobody's got their face, you know, nose length from the play field going over every little bit of artwork. But I've grown to realize that in this hobby and in this industry, I don't know if there's anything else that kind of gets analyzed in such a micro sense than pinball does, at least for anything that I've ever been involved with. So, you know, don't don't get caught with your pants down, so to speak, because somebody is going to exploit it. Oh, I agree. I agree. Well, thank you, Ken, for bringing up that polarizing topic. Very much appreciated. Oh, no, of course. I mean, it's it's the cutting edge entertainment news. You get not getting the one thing you'll realize here is that we don't have any agenda and we certainly don't have. We're not activists. We're just covering pinball from an enthusiast's perspective with a little bit of distributor inside. inside baseball i guess so to speak so nothing malicious just just a little conversation some friendly conversation what else what else you got on this game again we're not going to deep dive the pin we just wanted to offer some commentary on some of the more topical situations that have been coming up i have to apologize to you because you you tried to start off with that with like hey you know what do you think about this game and the shots we're not going to go deep and then we got off into some wild tangents yeah but you know what we weren't talking about how satisfying the left orbit is or anything like that we'll leave that to some other people it's taking a different perspective but uh you know i would like to try to get more involved and in-depth into your uh magical career and the tricks that you've learned over you just wait till this weekend buddy the high plains drifter of magicians this weekend you get to see all the the amazing coin tricks card tricks hey can we put one of your tricks up on the uh flipping up pinball podcast social media I will record a trick, and I will put it on – actually, I will. We'll put it on one of our socials. All right, good. So if you're there, you want to see Greg Bone's magical journey. One more thing to that. I have to explain this. So one more thing about my magic friend. So he's actually a pretty world-renowned magician, but in the sense that he does a lot of background stuff. Like he's created a lot of tricks and stuff for – oh, my gosh. America's Got Talent. He's had a couple people win America's Got Talent. He does a lot of stuff back behind closed doors for magicians and helping them with their tricks for pen and tellers, fool us, and different things. But the great thing is, sorry, again, long story, but I just love Brent.
    51:23
    Just awesome to have as a friend. But he's into pinball now. Him and his wife are giant pinball people now. So it's like kind of full circle. He's got me into magic when I was a kid and now able to help push him into pinball a little bit. See, that's why you're a pinball ambassador. You're crossing the streams there. You know what would be cool, actually? if you get a chance next time you talk to him, because if he's getting familiar with pinball, I would love to see what a magician could do with visuals inside of a pinball machine. Like what what kind of sleight of hand, what kind of magical elements could a magician conceptualize and say, hey, you could probably make this work on a game. And that would be really cool because, look, everybody's looking for the ball to do something cool and unique and fun. And that's why something is simple. And I say simple in terms, but I know it's a more complex design underneath the play field. But Dracula with that Miss Multi-Ball, I mean, just having a magnet drag that ball across the play field is really cool. And he is the perfect guy because, like I said, he's been on state a lot. I think he was on Penn & Teller too. But his main thing now is his business is basically constructed around creating the physicality and the magic tricks with these magicians. So that is honestly something I had not thought about until now, and I'm kind of kicking myself in the ass that I didn't because I'm actually going to sit down and I want to talk to him about what can we create. And he's doing stuff in front of a live audience. So a lot of it's got to be lighting and mirrors and deception and stuff. I would just be curious to see because that would be kind of cool to just have just a hardcore magician come in with the pinball company and be like, hey, let me show you a couple of cool things you can do with this ball. And work with the engineers on it and say, hey, where's our limitations? What can I do in this? Because this is how I would work this trick. Now, how do we incorporate it? How do we get it to fit in the game? let's go hey you want to open a pinball company you want to do it with a magician let's go pinball magic we can just call it the company's pinball magic right right i'm in let's go let's go all right greg i think that's gonna wrap up episode number two of the flipping out pinball podcast if you are looking for a new or used pinball machine arcade anything in that genre We encourage you to go check us out at FlippinOutPinball.com. That's Flip, the letter N, OutPinball.com. Hit us up over there and see what we've got. Happy to answer all your questions, any comments that you may have or observations. You can hit me up at Ken at FlippinOutPinball.com or Greg Bone over there at Greg at FlippinOutPinball.com. Also, follow us on socials, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram. Type in FlippinOutPinballPodcast. Follow us there. Also, follow FlippinOutPinball while you're there. follow everything that we have within our little corporate umbrella all the flipping out stuff and greg you know somebody might be on the fence a little bit i'm not sure how this game shoots how it plays how to approach it or maybe you already bought a game and you want to have a little bit more of a deep dive greg what's a good idea for them what's a good way for them to figure out more about what's happening with harry potter pinball oh man ken you got to go visit joel and check out his uh amazing i'm talking about truly amazing tutorial on youtube on the flip and out YouTube channel and check out Joel's tutorial on this game. I mean, truly especially for a new game to come out like the deep dive that he goes into this code and explaining what to do in this game is truly phenomenal. Greg, I worked for the company for five years and I learned a couple things about the game from Joel's pinball stream. So, kudos to Joel. He's like the John Madden of pinball streaming with his illustrations and yeah, he does a great job. So again, get out there, get to YouTube on the Flip N Out pinball channel. And check out the tutorial, because, I mean, that tutorial is absolutely phenomenal. And finally, if you'd like to support the show in any fashion, you can go to patreon.com, search Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast. And look at some of the tiers. You might want to subscribe and help Greg buy his next magic trick. Oh, definitely. And, listen, there's going to be more Potter. So stay tuned on our Patreon for a little bit of extra bonus content on some follow-up to our discussion today. All right, ladies and gentlemen, for Greg Bone, I am. Ken Cromwell. You're a wizard, Mr. Cromwell. Oh, the impressions coming back for episode two. Whatever you do, don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.