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It's Alive!

BlahCade Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 2m·analyzed·Oct 20, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Zen Studios Universal Monsters Pack announced with deep-dive on licensing, graphics overhaul, and gameplay improvements.

Summary

Chris Rebus and Jared Morgan discuss the official announcement of Zen Studios' Universal Monsters Pack (Creature from the Black Lagoon and Monster Bash), releasing October 29th for $9.99. They detail licensing constraints that prevented earlier announcement, explain why licensed tables are packaged by IP holder rather than volume numbers, and extensively praise the visual and gameplay improvements over Pinball Arcade's versions, including better graphics, more challenging ball physics, and refined mechanics.

Key Claims

  • Universal Monsters Pack releasing October 29th for $9.99

    high confidence · Official announcement discussed; specific release date and pricing confirmed by hosts

  • Zen Studios knew about these tables since late July but couldn't announce due to licensing restrictions

    high confidence · Chris: 'we've known about them since the end of July, the final week of July' and licensing discussion about not tipping hand

  • Licensed table packs are organized by IP holder, not volume numbers; future packs will follow this pattern

    high confidence · Chris explains Universal owns Universal Monsters, so they're bundled together; future licensing will follow same logic

  • Creature from the Black Lagoon has significantly more difficult ball physics than Pinball Arcade version

    high confidence · Chris: 'it is way more difficult now. I've tried. I really have tried. I've yet to hit the Super Jackpot.' Contrasts with Pinball Arcade where he got three super jackpots routinely

  • Monster Bash and Creature graphics are dramatically improved from Pinball Arcade, with readable text and clear plastics

    high confidence · Chris extensively praises graphics quality; 'colors are nice and rich and deep. Everything is readable on the playfield'

  • Zen Studios will prioritize Williams physics implementation in new Zen Originals tables rather than retrofitting old tables

    medium confidence · Chris cites information from Deep and indicates intention to include Williams physics in future Zen Original designs

  • Leaderboard protection concerns have prevented Zen from implementing Williams physics into older table volumes

    medium confidence · Chris theorizes leaderboard holders have sent death threats over score resets, causing Zen to hesitate on physics updates

  • Volume 5 (unlicensed tables) is likely coming before Volume 6 due to ESRB rating and console certification considerations

    medium confidence · Chris speculates Volume 5 (Bally pack) comes first, then Volume 6 (Williams pack with Jackbot), to batch ESRB submissions

Notable Quotes

  • “When you're dealing with third-party licenses, you don't tip your hand until you're able to tip your hand.”

    Chris Rebus @ ~4:30 — Explains licensing NDA constraints that prevented early announcement of Universal Monsters Pack

  • “Nobody's ever going to be happy. Let's just assume that this is the cost of the licensing rolled in.”

    Chris Rebus @ ~8:45 — Addresses pricing complaints about $9.99 two-pack by contextualizing licensing costs

  • “The colors are nice and rich and deep. Everything is readable on the playfield. It is a new lease on life, definitely on the looks of these tables.”

    Chris Rebus @ ~24:00 — Emphasizes dramatic visual improvements over Pinball Arcade renders

  • “I could cradle a ball with the left flipper and just play the entire game with the right flipper. Almost every shot I could nail with the right flipper.”

    Chris Rebus @ ~28:30 — Illustrates how easy Creature from the Black Lagoon was in Pinball Arcade, now much harder in Zen version

  • “If you're that good, you'll have no problem reclaiming the title. And isn't it fun to actually have competition and a challenge?”

    Chris Rebus @ ~45:00 — Arguments for why leaderboard resets wouldn't harm skilled players

  • “Thankfully that's good. No vacuum ramps whatsoever.”

    Chris Rebus @ ~27:00 — Confirms Creature from the Black Lagoon main ramp behaves like real table physics without magnetic cheese

  • “When the next Zen Originals come out, it's his intention to put in the Williams physics and design the tables from the get-go so that Classic Pinball mode on those tables will feature the Williams physics.”

    Chris Rebus @ ~40:30 — Details Zen's strategy for Williams physics integration going forward

  • “There was even an issue with this beta because somebody went, 'Hey Chris, you did a really great job'... and that score getting ported over to one of the other tables.”

Entities

Chris RebuspersonJared MorganpersonZen StudioscompanyUniversal Monsters PackproductCreature from the Black LagoongameMonster BashgamePinball ArcadeproductUniversal PicturescompanyFarsight Studioscompany

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Leaderboard protection culture creating barrier to physics updates; community members allegedly sent death threats over leaderboard resets, causing Zen to hesitate on updating older volumes

    medium · Chris: 'some of you decided to send Zen death threats because, God forbid, your leaderboard score disappeared' and attributes this to preventing Williams physics implementation in volumes 1-3

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Zen Studios redesigning classic table physics to match real pinball behavior; Creature main ramp no longer vacuum-pulls, left flipper catch is risky rather than reliable, ball behavior more chaotic

    high · Chris contrasts Pinball Arcade version (easy three super jackpots per game) with new version (unable to hit even one super jackpot despite repeated attempts)

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Licensed tables bundled by IP holder rather than volume number; Universal owns both tables in pack, preventing mixing with non-Universal properties like Elvira

    high · Chris explains: 'Universal owns the Monsters, the Universal Monsters. They don't want it mixed with Elvira. That doesn't work for them.'

  • $

    market_signal: Licensing costs reflected in $9.99 pricing for two-table pack (compared to lower unlicensed volume pricing); future volumes organized by IP holder rather than sequential numbering

    high · Chris discusses why licensed packs cost more and explains licensing structure will determine bundling going forward

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Zen Studios has artist/designer (Deep) overseeing table design philosophy and physics integration strategy for future releases

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.186

0:00
blockade pinball podcast hey you are watching the pinball blockade whatever the hell it is podcast see it's been too long the blockade pinball podcast i'm your host chris rebus a.k.a. Shut Your Trap and joining me as always, halfway across the world, Jared Morgs.
0:35
G'day everyone, how are you going? That was talking about just a total mental brain fart. I'm sitting there looking at all the screens and making sure what's going on, and then I'm like, why show is this?
0:49
Something of that nature, right? I was just saying that I haven't been doing any of the weekday streams probably two or three weeks actually just because new job it's been taking a long time no working for the mouse and the same thing goes with you Jared because you started also your new job at the same time and I started mine exactly right yeah it's been a very busy couple of weeks but good but busy yes good but busy so it's more about just kind of getting into the swing of things and then uh then i can go back to the the hobbies that's right yes so um i don't know should we should we even bother with the pleasantries or just die very injured no we don't need no stinking pleasantries let's go do it okay so yes after five months well no it hasn't been five months So we've known about these two tables from Xen, which are, of course, the Universal Monsters Pack,
1:55
Creature from the Black Lagoon, and Monster Bash. We've known about them since the end of July, the final week of July.
2:02

Chris Rebus @ ~43:00 — Anecdote about leaderboard glitch during beta testing showing technical complexity of score systems

Deep
person
Volume 5product
Volume 6product
Blockade Pinball Podcastorganization
Jeff Strongperson
Eikosperson

medium · Chris references Deep's confirmed intention for physics implementation in future Zen Originals

  • ?

    announcement: Zen Studios officially announces Universal Monsters Pack (Creature from the Black Lagoon, Monster Bash) for October 29th release at $9.99

    high · Chris and Jared discussing official release details, pricing, and licensing framework that required NDA secrecy until announcement

  • ?

    product_strategy: Zen Studios plans to implement Williams physics into new Zen Original tables from design phase; older volumes only updating if community adopts physics in new originals

    medium · Chris cites Deep's intention: 'When the next Zen Originals come out, it's his intention to put in the Williams physics and design the tables from the get-go'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Volume 5 expected to contain Bally-licensed tables, Volume 6 to contain Williams tables including Jackbot; timing may coordinate with ESRB rating submissions for console releases

    medium · Chris speculates: 'I'm going to speculate: Maybe Volume 5. I don't think we're going to get two volumes by the end of this year' and theorizes Volume 6 timing for ESRB batch submission

  • ?

    technology_signal: NDA leaks and Steam achievement database inadvertently revealed Universal Monsters Pack details to community; Zen working on tighter information control

    medium · Chris notes: 'There was the Steam leak of the two achievements, so that was kind of a dead giveaway' and comments 'Zen's going to have to work on that'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Zen Studios implementing improved graphics rendering pipeline with clearer plastics, readable text, and richer colors compared to previous Pinball Arcade versions

    high · Extensive praise for visual improvements; Chris notes plastics are now clear/translucent instead of milky, songs on CD readable, chase lights no longer look like overlaid photographs

    • Actually, I think we might have known about them prior to that, but we got the beta at the end of July. Yeah. So these have been a long time coming. Yeah. and that's a whole interesting discussion as well but I think it's got to do with Zen having other marketing priorities that they need to get out would be my take on it yeah I mean well apart from marketing priorities being with Star Wars and coming out on the Switch and I really don't know nothing has been told to us about if that was truly the delay or anything but one thing I can say and it's been repeated to me numerous times. When you're dealing with third-party licenses, you don't tip your hand until you're able to tip your hand. Yeah, right.
    2:54
    So, yeah, we've known about these two tables for a long time, but it was absolutely don't say a word because we don't want anything to be screwed up and then all of a sudden yank it.
    3:05
    Yeah. So the burden was on the receiver. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you can call it a burden. Super careful. Yeah, I mean, it sucked to not be able to mention anything, but on the other hand, we got to know.
    3:22
    So, also, you'll notice this is called the Universal Monsters Pack, not Volume 5. And there is, again, a specific reason for that. Volumes are going to be for unlicensed tables. Licensed tables are going to be called whatever the heck Zen wants to call them, but they will not be volumes. so hopefully that answers your question RKD14 yes and I gotta confess I was a little bit sneaky in the twitters because no we never had volume 5 in beta of where it was a technicality yes but it was not volume 5 no we had a beta not volume 5 which I know that sucks on our part, but we, it's one of those things where it's like, how many times can you deny the question before it becomes obvious that you know the answer? So you tell a half truth. Well, you have to, the NBA compels us. Yes, the NBA definitely compels us. So that being said, it is very, very good to be able to finally go, ah, yes, we can talk about these stinking packs. And what killed me was when everybody's sitting there guessing what the packs are going to be and that they're Halloween packs. It's like, you all nailed it right off the bat. I mean... Yeah, you got it really, really well. Like, round of applause. Yes. Off flaps. Just because there's not that many Halloween-themed or monster-themed tables that are licensed that could come out and be paired together.
    5:00
    Because licenses. So, yeah, you're right in the money there. The detective sleuths in digital pinball fans are well and truly on it. Which, again, is why we can't tip our hand, because you guys, I swear, the little teeniest gap of info. You'll pick it up, and it'll be news. So for all those of you that are disappointed that it doesn't include, say, Scared Stiff, well, because that's a completely different license. Not just, Elvira is not universal. so Universal owns the monsters, the Universal monsters they don't want it mixed with Elvira that doesn't work for them so that's what you've got to keep in mind, that's what we've been waiting for in terms of licenses to see what Zen would do when they have the license how does that play out and it's very distinct licenses are kept into a pack with licenses that are held by the owner called that so obviously Universal they own the Universal Monsters it makes sense to pair those two together I suppose it would be possible if there was another Universal themed or owned table that Universal owns that they could have thrown that into the mix but it probably wouldn't have been Halloween and I don't even know what table that would have been anyway no I don't know so keep that in mind for future guessing purposes it's going to have to be by Whoever the parent license holder is, that's what's going to be bundled together. But there might even be a situation where, like, if you think about The Addams Family.
    6:45
    Okay, that's owned by Paramount. Well, are they really going to pair that with, like, I think, what, Congo? Isn't that a Paramount movie? Are you really going to have... I think so. Yeah, it's like, are you really going to have... Yeah, or was. Adam's family and Kong went to pack together? I guess if you call it the Paramount pack, but who knows. So that's, I don't know what's going to happen when you get into licensing where it just becomes a single table and stuff. You see, Universal Monsters pack made sense, but a movie studio pack named after the studio, I don't think they go down that path. That's a little bit too, that's the wrong grouping. if you know what i mean yeah yeah it'll be it'll be theme related not studio related i think you'd have to say right yes precisely precisely that yes well the studio is going to own it uh you still have the licenses underneath that that have their own say so in what's going on um okay enough with the the the licensing let's get into some other nitty-gritties uh the table comes out the two tables come out October 29th which here on the States is a Tuesday and they are going to be $9.99 for the two pack. Now again some people went, what? Why are we paying more? And this is where I just laugh. You got some people that sit there and go, I'd pay $20 for Metallica and then you get other people that are like, why are you wanting to pay so much? Three tables for $9.99 and then you got people, I only want to pay for one table because there's other tables i don't want to nobody's ever going to be happy let's just assume that this is the cost of the licensing rolled in uh yeah and that's why the price thankful there's no kickstarter oh yeah right yeah yeah 999 with no kickstarter shut up and take our money and when you think about that first i used to say that oh without the kickstarter we were going to You have to charge $10 per table.
    8:52
    Well, here you go. There you go, right? And it's not, again, when you think about it, it wasn't the, was the Jurassic Park pack, was that $9.99 or was that $12.99?
    9:07
    I don't remember. I can't remember. There's been plenty of times where, for a three-pack, Zen has charged more than, I think $12.99 is the max that they've done. So, again, licenses, they cost more. Things are going to happen. They do. Wow, the chat is lighting up.
    9:25
    Okay, let's take a look over here and what do we got here. Just with the chat over on the Twitch stream, which if you're not watching the Twitch stream and you're watching it on YouTube, sorry, you're late. You don't get to chat with us. No.
    9:39
    Correct. Let's see. Yeah, there was the Steam leak of the two achievements, so that was kind of a dead giveaway that was a two table. thing. Zen's going to have to work on that. They want to be sneakier because... I don't know why they do that. Like, it's... They know that people are going to be all over that. Yeah. Right? Yeah. What else do we got here? What will be released for Christmas?
    10:01
    Dunno. Yeah, do not know. And I... And truth be told, I don't know if there's a Christmas release or not. Yeah. We are now officially up to date with you guys. Yes. and no NDA is clouding what we're saying we actually do not know which in a sense is kind of fun for us because what do we specialize in? Speculation yes when we have information we can't really speculate because it can be said well you're not speculating you're just telling what you know yeah that's right so that makes it more fun for our podcasting for the twitch streams here because, yay, speculating again. So, no, I have no idea about Christmas.
    10:49
    What else we got? Yeah, the achievements have been known for a month and a half to two months. Will Zen release Volume 5 and 6 this year? I'm going to speculate.
    11:05
    Maybe Volume 5. I don't think we're going to get two volumes by the end of this year. I would put money down that they won't be doing Volume 6. They're not going to flood the market this close to the end of the year with that extra table pack. No, no. I think it's reasonable to assume that they will do Volume 5. Reasonable to assume. Yes. Now, here's a good question.
    11:27
    Are they going to be able to find Cactus Canyon? They're floating around. They're floating around, but are they floating around in Europe? I'm pretty sure the pinball museum has one okay if the pinball museum has one then that's not an issue number two is jackpot what the heck are they going to do with that for consoles oh for gambling oh yeah because it's just basically a gambling pinball machine now I have a theory and go with me on this the whole thing that I've been pitching in terms of why the consoles haven't been uncensored yet and what zen has said was because it was the esrb rating right and they didn't want to mess with that and as they're still producing these tables they don't know the full gamut of what to include in the esrb rating so if they save jackpot for volume six and it is in that volume and that basically now encompasses all the esrb because if you start going pre-dmd there's not too much different in any of those tables that isn't in all these regular DMD. And the DMD has stuff that's happening on the DMD that you don't have to worry about in alphanumerics also.
    12:42
    So, if they say Volume 6, that would make sense to then submit both Volume 6 and their request for the new ESRB, and submit to be resorted by Xbox, Switch, and PS4. So pay all the money that needs to be paid right there in one lump sum at one time, rather than having to worry about doing it multiple times and keeping up. That's what I'm hoping is going to happen, and that will maybe take care of Jackbot. So there's my guess. You're not going to see the Williams pack until Volume 6. You're going to see the Bally pack first for Volume 5. Go, Jared. Yeah, I think you're correct there.
    13:24
    It's just easier for them. They can pump them out faster and with less constraints. So I think you're probably right there. so over to the twitch comments yes number one I love the interaction we're getting today it's fantastic thanks everyone for joining us so the question is do we have any insight on the flipper physics delay this is from Pinstrat Stan friend of the show the flipper physics delay well yeah it's we don't have any insights officially no we can speculate the hell out of it Yeah, but it's one of those things where it's just like, I know it's on their list, and I know that they've run it without tuning it specifically to tables, and they're actually pretty stoked at how well it works, just floating it. But I think that they definitely want to be able to dial them all in and get them. Yeah, because it literally is per table, just like it was with Pinball Arcade.
    14:24
    And I think I mentioned this on Twitter in a conversation as well. It's per table because each table is different. And you know this when you go up into the arcade. There could be two tables side by side. Two of the same pinball machines side by side, and they will play differently because physics are weird. Yes, because I too have watched Papa videos and gone, hey, I can do that trick, and then gone out to my machine and go, how come I can't do that trick? And it has literally to do with the setup of my table, not any digital physics because I'm dealing with real-world physics. and the same table that they're playing, but it's not the same table, is it?
    15:00
    Slightly different. Yeah, exactly right. So the question was, I don't think they will ever change the classic tables. The original ones was the question. So I think, you mean classic tables as in all the other Zen tables in the collection? That's a big undertaking. And I think that would be something that could only happen with a very long tail approach. I think they really want to, because I know that people love the physics but that a bunch of work across all the Well and here what I remind everybody of and I said this a long time ago and Deep has even kind of confirmed it When the next Zen originals come out, it's his intention to put in the Williams physics and design the tables from the get-go so that classic pinball mode on those tables will feature the Williams physics. if those go over well enough with the general Zen community and the general Zen community accepts them because you can play it obviously in regular single player and then you can play it in classic single player yeah if the general community is like hey that was cool and they get a good response and all of you that have not purchased Zen originals because you're like ew Zen tables they play funky but I like all the Williams ones well if all of a sudden those physics are in a Zen original and you're like, hey, those play great, that's what's going to be the encouragement for Zen to go, hey, it would be worth our while to put it into these older tables because there's a new market of game players that will then purchase those things. But it will definitely not be a blanket approach. It'll be a pack-by-pack instance. Yeah, I think you're right. It does make sense for them to actually implement it per new table made. But yeah, going back through the whole collection, are we up to 80 tables now or something like that yeah um yeah there's no way it's how do you how do you pick where to start like where would you start well and not only that question oh well where you start you start with aliens pack um aliens of course you do yeah it's probably the closest to actual pinball right like it's got that real bounce to it already so it would make a lot of sense honestly i would start i would do aliens i would do uh son of the the son of zeus slash Adventureland pack, I would do the Jurassic World pack, and I would do the Back to the Future E.T. and Jaws pack. It just says last four or five that have been released most recently. That seems like a logical place to do it. Because those are the newer tables, they already started making the rubber more bouncy in those to begin with.
    17:39
    Yep. And then after that, because I don't know, as much as I would love to see them go back and put them in say, Tesla, I don't think the table will improve at all. I think it would actually break the table.
    17:55
    Yeah, and I think, you know, Pinstrat Stan agrees with you there in the chat. Like, it really is a... It would not be good, I don't think. Those tables are unique in their own right. They're very zen originals. Yeah. In every single way. Yeah. So that's kind of what my thought of with the volumes 1 through 3. Now, the physics, in terms of getting him put into Volumes 1 through 3,
    18:21
    again, it's on their list of things to do. I don't think it's a real high priority. And I think, and I hate you people for this,
    18:30
    your goddamn leaderboards. That's the issue, folks. That is the freaking issue because some of you decided, not our listeners, I hope, some of you decided to send Zen death threats because, God forbid, your leaderboard score disappeared. Yeah.
    18:48
    And I'm dead serious. This is literally the reason why, because they don't want to implement something that is going to make the table harder and therefore make the leaderboard scores that are currently there unbeatable. Yeah.
    19:04
    The only thing that they could do is have the leaderboard separated, of course, for the actual classic mode versus the zen mode. Well, this is what Eikos says he... Well, they already have that. They're already separated.
    19:21
    Classic from Zen. Or Williams Physics from Zen Physics. But no, Eikos has even commented about this. They're looking into, can they implement a separate leaderboard or a new leaderboard? So basically you'll have your archived leaderboard and then a new leaderboard. But he says it's a lot of work. So, yeah, thanks, leaderboard whores.
    19:42
    Yeah. Let's just do it. And just put out hits on them. That solved the problem. So, yeah, address all your ire. Because you can tell this bugs me. It really, really annoys me that leaderboard people prevent the game maker from putting things into the game. And if you want to get mad at anybody, go into the threads and yell at the leaderboard people. yell at them and say you're the reason why we do not have volume one through three physics or the williams volume four physics put into volumes one through three it's your damn fault because you refuse to have your leaderboards cleared yeah the thing is though that they can do they actually can do whatever they want so if they really wanted to reset the leaderboards they could go we're resetting the leaderboards deal with it and your death threats and like ridiculous How are you going to execute those, mate? Like, let's be serious. They can do what they like.
    20:41
    Well, unfortunately, some of those people might actually be the type that, you know, it's not a death threat so much as, hey, let's release a virus into the game.
    20:49
    Or you can get the, you know, Farsight. Because Farsight has the same reason. They were scared to death to reset any leaderboards. And the best that they could do was delete the ones that were obviously hacked, which again, how did the hack get into the leaderboards? I don't know.
    21:08
    They used to get in there all the time. It was like a feature. Yeah, right. And I'll tell you this. There was even an issue with this beta because somebody went, Hey Chris, you did a really great job. I forget on what table, but you're like number two. And I went, I'm number two? I'm like, when did I play that? Am I that good at that table? And yeah, you want to know what it was? It was me playing the beta of Monster Bash and that score getting ported over to one of the other tables. Whoops, same ID. Whoops!
    21:43
    And me having to be like, I don't know where that score came from. Yeah, I'm playing a beta. Yeah, it's like, ooh, I just had a really, really good game that game. Yeah, yeah, really good. Yeah, oh, here, here.
    21:59
    PinstressDan has a good point. Top players will still end up being the top players that the leaderboards are wiped with maybe the exception of one or two. My point exactly. But those people that are at the top, they're like, I don't want to spend 15 hours again playing the table.
    22:14
    Too bad. Bitch. Yeah, exactly. If you want it enough, you'll do it. And you'll smile about it when you do it. I mean, I keep on saying it. If you're that good, you'll have no problem reclaiming the title. And isn't it fun to actually have competition and a challenge where people are constantly challenging you and making you defend your title? Or what? It's like if you were a boxer and, okay, great, you won the heavyweight championship. And you're like, I'm done. I'm quitting. No challengers. What is that? That's nothing. That means you're a pansy and you can't handle it.
    22:54
    Exactly right. I think it might have been Hurricane that that score got posted to according to the scratch. Yes, that's what it was. it was Hurricane because I hate Hurricane. And I was like, how did I get such a good... And it was in tournament mode, even better.
    23:05
    Oh, no chance. No chance that was me doing that. I think I legitimately hopped in there to try and get a real score, and I didn't come close. No. Well, in other words, feel free to wipe that one, Zinn, because that's definitely not right.
    23:24
    Now that I've had my more than 60 seconds of rage with Chris, bring back that feature hey Jeff for those of you that don't know we used to do a feature with our friend Jeff Strong when he would jump on the podcast and Jeff is a very mild mannered fellow and he would start to get worked up about something and then we would do wait wait hold on we do 60 seconds of rage with Jeff and he would peter out after about 20 seconds and couldn't continue throwback for you all okay so let's actually welling we'll get to your comment in a moment before we talk about Zach's stuff let's talk more about what has got us so dang excited about these two tables so first off both these tables are what season one and season two of TVA the big release big excitement thing that Pinball K tried to do to get people to buy other packs and it worked because they love those games. That being said, the graphics blew and you know what I'm talking about if you look at Monster Bash and the fact that you cannot read a single title of the songs on the CD that's in the middle of the playfield.
    24:48
    Also the plastics on the slingshots are blurry and fuzzy. The graphics on the apron are blurry and fuzzy. The graphics are washed out.
    25:02
    They're just not defined and clear. Take a look at the plastics on Creature from the Black Lagoon. They're kind of milky white. They're not nice, translucent, clear plastic. I can say unequivocally,
    25:18
    they look phenomenal now. The tables look beautiful. You can see that in the B-roll footage that they put up the other day. It's like, that's really what they look like. That's not like an extra render. Everything looks like that in the game. Yeah, and this is what I got so excited when I saw, what was it, the plastics in the junkyard for the first time, and I went, oh, damn, Whitewater's going to look good, and then I thought, Creature's going to look amazing. Yep. Just the transparency on the ramp. Like, that is a big ramp in Creature from the Black Lagoon, and it really dominates the playfield. So having that right and having the chase lights not looking like they're a photograph with some blinking overlaid on it. Right. You know, big deal. Yeah, no, the render on this is absolutely phenomenal. So you guys are going to be very stoked about that. Like I said, the colors are nice and rich and deep.
    26:10
    Everything is readable on the playfield. It is a new lease on life, definitely on the looks of these tables. uh number two how the damn things play can i say hell no to vacuum ramps yeah no vacuum ramps no vacuum ramps whatsoever now some of you been asking is that main ramp a um a beast to hit and hard to hit it's not difficult uh when it doesn't go to the uh to the whirlpool The loop mode. Right. When it's just the standard mode, it's pretty easy to hit. Once you get into jackpot mode and trying to hit that, it's much steeper. Yes, there it becomes much more difficult to... It's not a guinea anymore. It will just crawl up there on a good shot. Right. Which is pretty much how it works on a real table anyhow. So they've got that down really well.
    27:08
    Yeah. And so, again, thankfully that's good. number two, when you launch the ball on a creature it was very easy to catch the ball with the left flipper and me and Jared have both never experienced that on a real table that's death if you do that on a real table in most cases and once more it's not quite death but it certainly makes the ball go wild and random. Oh yeah, it's a risky shot. Just letting it bounce off, you know, do a dead pass is a little bit risky and kind of crazy. So that's the cool thing about Creature is the ball is much more wild. And something that annoyed me, but then I exploited the hell out of when playing TPA's version, I literally could cradle a ball with the left flipper and just play the entire game with the right flipper. almost every shot I could nail with the right flipper. And so when it came time for doing the jackpot and the super jackpots, it was incredibly easy. I could do three go-arounds of super jackpot, which meant getting into the billions was a standard game for me. Yeah, right.
    28:29
    You know, whereas now with, I don't know, what's your, did you have that same experience in TPA, Jared? I didn't play Creature at all in TPA because I loathed it was a snoozefest and it was boring and something about that game I just don't really enjoy but that's changed my opinion about it when I played it in Williams the new collection yes you can do a live catch on the flipper pinstripe stand it is possible I've done it once it's tricky as hell but you probably will have no problem with a pinstripe stand so you'll be fine yeah I haven't quite gotten the feel yet for when to do the flip in Zens yet I've attempted it it's hit and miss for me but I know that it can be done because I did actually try it and was able to do it so those are kind of the that's the main thing to know about Creature is it is way more difficult now. I've tried. I really have tried. I've yet to hit the Super Jackpot. And I've been trying. And I've not yet done one. Pinball Arcade, like I said, I would get three in one multiball.
    29:49
    Monster Bash, that's the one, obviously, was in most need of a graphical update. And all you have to do is look at the toys to know that they look so much better. I mean, and all often we'll be asking Farsight to please re-render the toys. there was a comment in the chat saying that the artist that was working for Pinball Arcade desperately wanted to redo those ones but of course there's no way they were letting him go back no they weren't going to allocate the time which is money to do it yeah they worked out that season one they were basically just like they were just selling themselves like that even there was no point there was no business justification for them to invest any effort in updating those because there was no reason why sales were dropping, which is why they didn't do it. Yeah. Which is a terrible thing to do, but it is business, I guess, after all. Yeah. It's business, but it's bad business. Bad business. Because, as we always say, it leaves a really poor first impression on people. It's one thing if that's, again, if all they released was Volume 1 and 2 and that was the end of it, well then you go oh okay Well yeah that how they made the game but then volume three came out and we all went hey Yeah exactly Yeah Okay but back to Monster Bash So the toys look better.
    31:12
    And again, the ball is a little more wild. It's a little more crazy. Hitting the scoop is not such a gimme anymore. You can't just do that 45 times to get Linus Lament, like I did on TPA's version. and the phantom flip actually works properly, like it aims properly it does it doesn't need any dial in time like it did on Pinball K because of course the ROM reset every time so every time you start a new game it had to relearn the timing so and Um, and what else was I going to say about Monster Bash? Uh, it is still a forgiving table. I'll say that much. Um, especially if you play it in the non, you know, in Zen mode. Uh, just a regular single player. Uh, it's definitely a forgivable, or forgiving table. You're going to not have much of a problem getting at least, uh, Mosh Pit multi-ball going. the bride ramps are also a little bit more dialed in and easier to I shouldn't say they're easier to hit but you can start comboing them better I never was able to get them comboed right on TBA the left ramp always seemed to be wonky for doing that I don't know ok hold on looking over here we have a question about the music of Creature we think all five songs are in there I can say for sure Summertime Blues is in there Willie Handjive is in there Red River Rock is in there I believe Rock Around the Clock is in there but that's because those first three that I mentioned those are what Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3 songs are if any of you in the comments section can point out when does Rock Around the Clock get played and then there's Get a Job now the problem is that when I looked them up online to hear them, I'm hearing the actual versions of the songs, not the Williams MIDI versions. So I'm not 100% positive, especially with Get a Job. That's the only one that I'm like, I don't know that I've heard that or not, but if it only plays in a certain mode, that could be the reasoning why I haven't heard it yet or am not recognizing. But I could have sworn that somebody had confirmed that all five songs are indeed in the table.
    33:52
    You've heard the same thing though, right, Jared? Yeah, I'm sure that as soon as I started playing it in the beta, I went, oh, that wasn't in TPAs. I've got a feeling because of that, they've got all five, but that's not confirmed for me either because I haven't heard all the songs. In fact, I actually had to go and listen on YouTube for one of the songs that Chris mentioned before the show because I couldn't recall it. it was the get a job song um but yeah i don't recall hearing it so it must be buried deep in a mode or something like that yeah that's like that's the only one that i'm not 100 positive but if anybody can tell me where that song plays or if you can post a link to what the midi version of that song sounds like then i'd be happy to play the game and try and listen for it And I just need to hear what the... Because even the Summertime Blues, it's like, I recognize it, but then you hear the real version, and it doesn't... I mean, there's a big gap between the two. It's like hearing the elevator version of a song versus the actual song, where you're like, that sounds familiar, but is it? I don't know. That's right. So, yeah, if anybody wants to post a link to that, that'd be great. but I'm pretty certain four of the five are definitely in there.
    35:16
    Monster Bash, no such problem. It's all there. Now, the other issue that's cropped up, and we'll get in... Oh, hold on. Before I get into that, let's go into the animations, because this is where me and Jared were like, what?
    35:32
    So the animations that are done on Monster Bash are so on target. Yeah. Because every single one of the toys functions and moves. And the thing is, is they're in character. They look good with what they're doing. I think my favorite is probably the mummy when his crypt opens up and there's dust particles that float out and the mummy sits up and kind of does this thing. That one looks great. Yeah.
    36:05
    Yeah, it looks incredible. And the thing is with the toys is they haven't gone full zen and animated a completely new character, I guess. For the toys, what they've done is they've taken the moldings of the toys and just added a little bit of life into them. So they still look original. Like the mummy, for example, still has the molded bit at the bottom where his legs are sort of joined together because of the molding process. But they've made him twist and turn and move but still kept that original aesthetic. and I think that's the thing that makes this so convincing. Yeah, because I know some people were hoping that, oh, they'll all of a sudden hold their instruments when you earn them and stuff like that. And Zen didn't go that route. It was almost like there's restraint, but they went full tilt on what they did with it. So the animations, like I said, the animations of the toys is just awesome. As soon as I saw it, I was like, yes, that's perfect. then you go over to creature and that one they went crazy wild on so instead of just the hologram image appearing they just animated a creature swimming back and forth underneath there and when things happen also in the creature and you can see it in the in the the footage that's yeah where it pops up out of the playfield but it's not just that's like an end of all animation and it looks really cool. But when you get into multiball, the creature full-on crawls out, gets up on the table, and you want to talk distractions? Huge distractions. Because you can shoot your ball right through the creature, but as the ball passes through him, he actually reacts. He'll be like, It's very cool. Yeah, it's really cool. And like I said, if you hated the dragon flying around, or the Millennium Falcon flying around, and found that to be distracting. Oh, the creature is enormously distracting, but it's also one of those things where you're like, but it looks so cool, I don't want to eliminate it.
    38:09
    Yeah. I'll just keep it on, basically. I don't care. I want to play. I want to have that experience with it on. I don't really care about high schools and stuff. I want to have fun when I'm playing the game, so I'll leave it on. Yeah.
    38:22
    Unless I'm really stressing out, and then I'll go ahead and turn it off in a moment. But that's what the beauty of just the push button is. Love it. At the touch of a button, you can get rid of it. I think my only gripe, and this is with both tables, the inlanes at the top of the playfield for doing film and doing... What was it?
    38:44
    The Mummy. Yeah, The Mummy. Is that ABC or 123? I don't remember what's up at the top. There's four lanes at the top, I think. No, there's only three for Monster Bash. There's three and there's four for... There's four for Creature and three for Monster Bash. Anyway, point being, it's really hard to tell which ones are lit. They're covered, for the most part.
    39:06
    And there's no, unlike Theater of Magic, where there's a mirror up the top there actually showing you what's going on up there. There's no, like, allowance for that in these two tables. Right. Now, keep in mind, I'm playing it in view 2, because I like a static view. I don't like my table to be shifting and moving and everything else like that. And so, I'm historically speaking for view 2. that's a little bit difficult to tell where you're at. If you play different views, it might not be such an issue. But that's my view. View 8 is the same. Like, even with the DMD view in place, it's still hard to actually see what's going on up there.
    39:43
    So that's probably my only minor gripe. But I've actually had that gripe on almost all of the tables that Zen has done currently, where it's like, hey, I can't see it quite as well, quite as nicely.
    39:58
    Okay, so that's really why we're pumped and hyped. The animations are phenomenal. Can't wait for you guys to actually play with them and see what they've done. You're going to be blown away by just how crisp the tables look. And like I said, they play really, really good. Creature is certainly more interesting now, and it's no longer just a one-flipper table like was the TBA. It's actually a game that I'd actually play now, because it's that enjoyable to actually flip. And it is really, it's very close to the specimens I've seen out in the live, in arcades. So it's something you actually would enjoy playing now because it feels right. And that was a big problem with the one on Pimble Arcade. It just wasn't right. There's something really off with it. No, I used to say that I would hate play it because I hated playing it, but I was really good at it.
    40:53
    So sometimes I just want to get a high score on the table, and I'm like, fine, I'll play Creature. I don't really like it, but I'm going to play Creature.
    41:00
    Yeah. Now, something that also has erupted is, of course, here comes the censorship issues. Or, and this isn't really so much censorship, although there is something censored on Creature, because the beta version that we've been playing is the family-friendly version. We usually don't get the uncensored until the whole thing goes live.
    41:24
    So on Creature specifically, the gal at the top of the insert, you got the creature reaching over on one side and the gal is kind of leaning back and has her hand up on the other side in the regular version. What you would find in TPA on any real machine. She's basically in a bathing suit. Yeah. So full thighs and legs showing cleave is showing all that. And the family friendly version, they essentially put the dress that was on the gal in attack from Mars and put that on her now the funny thing is i didn't even notice not me neither it didn't even register because they did a really good job of integrating it it doesn't look slapped on it and it's era appropriate it is yeah it looks to part yeah there's even there's even a if you look um i think this is on monster bash uh right near the creature uh the creature lane there's a little image of a gal swimming, and she's totally in a 1920s-style swimsuit.
    42:32
    And I was like, wait, did Zenz censor that, too? And then I looked at TPA's version, and I'm like, nope, same there, too.
    42:38
    Like I said, they made it era-appropriate, if not so egregious as some of the other censorships that they've done. But the main thing that people are losing their minds over right now is, oh my god, they took out the flying V of the Chevy, and made it a straight line across.
    42:59
    Does that really make a difference to gameplay? Oh, it makes zero difference to gameplay, but I get the aesthetic look, right? And in addition to that, they took out the Trudeau that was across the top because he replaced Chevrolet,
    43:13
    used the same font, and wrote Trudeau over the top of it. Yeah. Obviously, there's the issue with Trudeau and the whole Chalmell estate, or not the Shell even notice it until somebody made a point and I went Oh, okay. I don't think I looked. So here's the funny part. Everybody's freaking out over the fact that, or I shouldn't say people are freaking out, but it's being made a point of that the flying V is no longer there. Instead, it's just a chrome piece that goes in straight line. What nobody's pointing out is they also removed the arrow darts that are on a 57 Chevy from the hood because that's a clear identifier of a 57 Chevy. If you look up the playfield, there's the tail fin of a Bel Air. 57 Chevy Bel Air with the very obvious white panel that goes across the side. That's been eliminated. It's a straight bar. But they didn't change the flip-open gas cap. So it's still a 57 Chevy. They just eliminated some of the art. And then the final one that nobody seemed to notice is, again, over on the left side, just right near the KISS lane, I believe it is. There is obviously a Cadillac. the tail end the back end of a Cadillac with a very distinctive wedge shape and the bullet taillights that has been altered now it's still got the wing but it's kind of a flat edge and it's got double taillights instead of a single bullet so they clearly changed things so that it is a nondescript 50's era vehicle instead of being clearly a 57 Chevy and a Cadillac yep, fine move on Yeah, exactly. Because, again, I've been playing this since July. I didn't notice once until it was pointed out. If you've got that much of a hard-on for the art, go buy a playfield. Hang it on your wall. That's right.
    45:41
    It's not like they festered a main bit of art in the middle of the playfield or anything. Right. I mean, there's some festering going on. And here's the thing with that, and Farsight proved it.
    45:54
    You can alter the artwork, and it still retains the feel of the game for the most part until you go to the level that they did with World Cup Soccer. And they changed colors, and it really did kind of tweak it to the point of almost being like, there's something distinctly wrong with this. Yeah. But like what they did with New York, no fear other than the audio cue drops that they hacked and the DMDs that they hacked. The play field itself didn't look bad with their festering that they did there Let see here we go I have an answer to this I think So the question is I wonder if Bally paid for a license to Chevrolet originally or if they just asked if they could use it for free and ask a different car maker if someone said no before that. My guess, they didn't ask. It's the same thing with Space Invaders.
    46:50
    No, it's the same thing that they did with Space Invaders. Hey, let's just slap it up. We are going to produce all these. By the time they get put on the market and a lawsuit gets filed against us, it doesn't matter. we're not going to be making these tables anymore anyway.
    47:02
    Exactly. It's the old easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission. Well, who was based in Detroit? Oh, Jared, you're asking that. Yeah, I am. Those old pinball makers were all around that area. Chicago? Chicago. Oh, is that different? I don't know. Detroit's Michigan. Chicago's Illinois. I know. It's forgivable, man. You're in a completely different country.
    47:31
    I know that they were in an area that was also renowned for heavy industry. Yes. I mean, we're talking about states that are nicely close to each other. But, no, I think back then also that people were a little more free with licensing. Or I shouldn't even say licensing.
    47:52
    They weren't so copyright heavy. you can get away with some of this stuff. Did Farsight pay for the license for Chevy? Hell no. No? I'm pretty sure they took the same attitude. Go ahead. Let's see if anybody notices. We're a niche digital pinball game. Do you really think GM is like, hey, hey, that creature from the Black Lagoon table is coming out again. Let's take a hard and close look at that and see if we can earn an extra couple of dollars. No. Yeah. And Zen has commented to the effect, too, that they are the ones that said, we don't think that Farsight necessarily cleared everything that they did. Yeah.
    48:36
    But there's a reason why Zen is getting the licenses that they're getting, because they're being diligent about this and showing that they respect people's licenses. And if you show that you respect the license, then the license holders are much more willing to work with you. Yeah, that's right. They just assume that you're going to do the right thing, and they kind of get off your back a little bit more. And I guarantee that partly comes with how much they've been working with Disney and Marvel.
    49:03
    Because it don't get pretty much bigger or more litigious than that. Jeez. Yeah. So, yes, as Pinsir Estan said, save the money and pay for Harrison Ford's likeness when it comes to the indie table. That's right. Yeah. So beyond that, I've looked at the tables. I don't really notice anything different. But again, I didn't look at the cabinet art. I didn't look at the back glass. I'm not sure what else has changed. But those are things that you barely see other than when the table's doing the flyby. That's right. So it doesn't matter. No, it doesn't matter.
    49:41
    In fact, honestly, in my opinion, and this will be controversial, I don't really care that much. As long as it plays really well and it looks 90% even, the same as it did in the arcade, I don't care. Again, like I said, when they put the dress on the girl, or covered up her thigh on Attack from Mars, it kind of looked hacky. It didn't look great. The job they did on the girl here in Creature, way better. So if you're going to do it, do it in such a manner that at least the art style still retains, that lines still flow. Yeah. You know, I honestly don't understand what the issue is with having a cleavage line. It's a single pencil drawing. It's not a photo realistic thing. I don't get that. It does make me worried desperately about what they would do with Elvira. but I also understand people going, well, I really don't need to see what horny pinball artists were drawing back then, because believe me, you go to the 70s tables, dude, they were drawing nipples on things. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and some tables even have nudity on them. Right, right. So, no, I get what you're saying here, but you know if you do a what is it Franzen who did all the Conan art you're going to have a certain art style and I expect that art style to be respected you know exactly okay what else is there anything else you guys want to know about these two tables and then I can chime in.
    51:35
    I'm going to give it a moment. Okay, there was a question earlier about Zacharia and the Deluxe tables. Was that the question that we said we'd save for later? Yes, it was.
    51:47
    I don't have an answer. Back to you, Jared. I've got nothing either. I haven't seen the announcement or anything about them.
    51:55
    I saw one thing where I think they announced it on Facebook that they were going to... There's still a couple of tables that they have not done yet that were from that same collection, and those are probably going to be the first tables they get done.
    52:11
    I think the thing that was in the chat was that they've announced it, and I can't see any news about it. My Google food was failing me today.
    52:24
    God damn it, PinballWiz. You always show up late, and then you ask questions that we covered like 30 minutes ago. Just watch the thing over again. Watch the thing again, man. We're not going to recap. How are then both physics of Zen's version of the Universal Tables compared to the real ones? Also, did you know some tweaks compared to Volume 4?
    52:46
    I'm going to say that the physics are much closer to a real creature. Again, I've played four different creatures at four different people's houses, and all four of them played completely different from each other.
    53:02
    I've played monster bashes where the scoop eject was absolutely evil, and other times where it just gave a nice little plop that you could easily catch on your left flipper. So we're talking about two tables that really can play completely different in the wild. I think Zen has done a really good job of making it so the ball is wild that's the important thing that it doesn't feel predictable where the ball is going to go or what the ball is going to do you agree with that? I'm reading the post from Zachary I found it, my Google food is restored ok so there is a post dated 16th of October up there and it says I won't read the stuff at the beginning, but it said the one more final thing we'd like to share. As you all know, we have many different tables in our games, such as Solstice, EM, Remakes, etc.
    54:01
    Excuse me. Each table category is unique, and it goes on a bit more there. But by the end of 2019, we'll also introduce a new table category called Deluxe. Deluxe tables are even more modern tables than the Remakes, and will feature more unique designs and playfields. we will start off the deluxe tables with some remaining things like red show cine star soccer kings etc themes that are not used yet in the remakes but we may also come up with other unique content which is right now too early to talk about thank you for your support so there you go that's the news there you go and to answer your question there welling uh yeah we do talk about other digital pinball games It's just Pinball FX3 is the one that's the big dog on the block right now, right? I mean, we used to talk about only Pinball Arcade. And occasionally Zen when they released something new. But it was dominated by Pinball Arcade. But Zen's really the big player in the market. And there's no other commercial digital pinball. We don't actually go into PinMame or anything like that. No, we definitely don't do visual pinball effects. Or not visual pinball. But just last week's episode was entirely about Zachariah.
    55:15
    That's right. It was, actually. So welcome to the podcast, and feel free to go over to YouTube and look up the Blockade channel, and you'll find, well, this is episode 187, so we've got a lot of episodes up there, and we do talk about that. We've talked about Black Flaggers' Pinball Wicked.
    55:39
    We've talked about Pinout. We've talked about pretty much all of the digital pinball releases that are on iOS or Google Play, as well as Steam recently.
    55:52
    Yeah, so there you go. If it's digital and released as a major thing, then we try and at least cover it, unless it's a crappy pinball game. Then we want nothing to do with it, or we'll just plain mock it. we'll cover it but it won't be a gloom review right sorry are we at the end of all the FX discussion? I think we are ok so what I did I got my hands on this is a real tangent but I got my hands on a DSi a Nintendo DSi the other day it was gifted to me without a charger which I'm resolving on eBay for $5 ok But I realized that the DSi has a massive catalog of games. I think it's like 500 or something ridiculous like that.
    56:45
    So I started going through and looking at them and came across Metroid Prime Pinball on the DSi. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. I'll give that a go. And look, it's quite nice. This is old news, of course. This has been out for years, but it's new to me. So there you go. it's cool how they split it over the two screens. So the ball will actually go between the two screens of the DSi, and it's kind of cool. It's like a 3D perspective, but they've done it so the whole table is in view. So they've worked around the two small screens really nicely in the game. So I thought I'd just mention that and say it's actually pretty cool. I also worked out a way of basically modding the console without having to do any hard mods. So that was also pretty cool. if you get the Williams collection for that same thing it's split over the two screens right yeah I'll have to check that out if I can find it although that might not well hold on I don't know if that was for the DSi or if that was for the 3DS I think it was actually for the 3DS oh right okay yeah it probably would be 3DS it would have been of that era yeah so i'm yeah i could be wrong but yeah so it's not it's not entirely unique to split across it's kind of weird but oh yeah there you go dsi is not the same as the 3ds yeah yeah yes indeed okay yeah but yes having fun um oh right it's a pro pinball team interesting That would explain why it's actually pretty good.
    58:26
    Yeah. Cool. Okay. I'm going to flip back to the creature thing, just to also mention this. Zen is going to be streaming footage on Thursday morning, I think is when they do it. It's usually, I think, either...
    58:48
    Oh, what is it? I think it's 9 a.m. Pacific, so that's 11, no, 12 noon Eastern, 3.30 Europe, I don't know, something like that. Anyway, they'll be streaming. They get first dibs, obviously, because it's theirs to stream the game. After that, those of us that are beta testers, we will be able to stream the game. Also, I'm not quite sure that I'm going to be streaming on Thursday, but I'm almost positive I will stream on Friday and show it off then. So that's what to keep your eyes open. So I know I would be streaming Pinball Whiz. Well, you can confirm if you'll do it or not in the chat there, Pinball Whiz. But he's probably going to be doing it. Crow Pinball is probably going to be doing it. You might even see, although I don't know if he'll be quick enough on it, you might see Spacey's Arcade do it.
    59:46
    Deadflip might be doing it. There's going to be a lot of options for those of us that stream the game for you to be able to check it out and see what we're talking about, too.
    59:57
    Yeah, so it will be a cornucopia of pinball. Yes. And then it's back to... So once we show that, and once you guys get to see it, that'll then affect what our next podcast is, because then we get to talk about your guys' reactions and what you've all noticed because you're obviously going to notice things that we haven't noticed. And then we go back into full-on speculation. Yay! So everything returns to normal as it should. And it'll be great.
    60:31
    Yep. Trying to think if there's anything else. Not that I know of. No, I think we're done. Yeah, I feel exhausted. That was like great pressure. It was released. Yes.
    60:51
    It really does feel like that, doesn't it? That's good. It's good. Good. All right. So, that being said, follow us on the old... Socials. Hit us up on our website, which is blockadepinball.com slash episodes. make sure you head over to YouTube and follow the channel make sure you follow this channel right here on Twitch and then you should be up to date on all the things that we do next week Jared what do we have in store?
    61:26
    oh I've put money down that it'll be stuff and things and possibly some actual gameplay footage potentially alright folks hey we really appreciate though you tuning in, watching, and giving us an audience. And today's feedback was fantastic. Awesome. Yeah, fantastic.
    61:49
    It's kind of like us taking phone calls. Except without actual voice. Yes, because we don't want to hear you. Just as good. Just as fun.
    61:59
    Okay, until next time, peeps, we outta here. Buh-bye. See ya later.