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The Spinner is Lit - Episode 10: Table for Three

The Spinner Is Lit Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 57m·analyzed·Sep 27, 2017
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Community-focused pinball podcast discusses collecting culture, Deep Root Pinball entry, and JJP rumored titles.

Summary

In Episode 10 of The Spinner is Lit podcast, hosts Spencer Klingon and Seth Holder welcome guest Practical Steve to discuss pinball collecting, community, and industry news. The conversation covers Steve's entry into pinball collecting via a Hurricane, the importance of Pinside and personal relationships in the hobby, and recent industry developments including Deep Root Pinball entry with designer John Papadiuk, Zen Pinball's Back to the Future virtual table announcement, and rumors about Jersey Jack Pinball upcoming Pirates of the Caribbean and Guardians of the Galaxy titles.

Key Claims

  • John Papadiuk is now working with Deep Root Pinball, a new manufacturing company based in Texas

    high confidence · Spencer Klingon discusses recent news about John Papadiuk and Deep Root Pinball startup

  • Deep Root Pinball rumors indicate they will not take pre-order money and will manufacture games before asking for payment

    medium confidence · Spencer states this as unconfirmed rumor: 'the rumors are that they're not going to take any pre-order money'

  • Jersey Jack Pinball is rumored to be announcing Pirates of the Caribbean as their next title

    medium confidence · Spencer discusses rumor: 'Jersey Jack Pinball, JJP, a big rumor is...that rumored to be their next title is Pirates of the Caribbean'

  • Guardians of the Galaxy is rumored as a Stern title, though Stern keeps denying it

    medium confidence · Spencer: 'I've gotten several confirmations that Guardians of the Galaxy is coming up next. Yeah, and they keep denying that'

  • Zen Pinball announced a new Back to the Future trilogy-themed virtual pinball table

    high confidence · Seth Holder: 'They just recently announced their latest virtual table they're coming out with...Back to the Future'

  • Practical Steve owns or temporarily houses approximately 65% of his collection through babysitting machines for friends rather than direct ownership

    high confidence · Steve states: 'if you look at my collection on Pinside, probably 65% of those games have never been owned by me'

  • A French pinball show has assembled 15 Spirit machines in honor of deceased collector Steve Charland

    medium confidence · Spencer discusses: 'there's a French...show in France...got 15 spirits lined up' in honor of Steve Charland who previously assembled 7 Spirits

  • Stern has announced Elvira 3 and showed prototypes at Texas Pinball Festival

    high confidence · Hosts discuss Elvira 3 announcement: 'they announced it at Texas last year' / 'it was this year'

Notable Quotes

  • “I've always said that if it weren't for the friends I made in this hobby, I'd probably have gotten bored with it a long time ago.”

    Practical Steve @ ~18:30 — Captures the core philosophy of the episode: pinball is fundamentally about community and relationships, not just the machines themselves

  • “Pinball is hard, and it's a very unique and interesting monster.”

    Spencer Klingon @ ~42:00 — Summarizes industry context for Deep Root Pinball entry—acknowledges the high barrier to entry for new manufacturers

  • “We don't play pinball the most. we stand around and talk about pinball more than we're actually playing pinball.”

    Practical Steve @ ~16:00 — Humorous but insightful observation about the social nature of pinball culture at shows and events

  • “you can build a collection on trust not just money, you don't have to be rich to have a good sized collection”

    Practical Steve @ ~22:00 — Core philosophy about how reputation and trust enable collectors to grow collections beyond financial means through community relationships

  • “I'll believe it when I see it.”

    Seth Holder @ ~40:30 — Expresses skepticism about Deep Root Pinball's claims regarding pre-order practices, reflecting industry wariness from past failed ventures

  • “I will be cautiously optimistic.”

    Spencer Klingon @ ~42:30 — Frames measured approach to Deep Root Pinball despite industry skepticism—acknowledges both risk and possibility

  • “if I could sell my entire collection to buy a spirit, I would, but I would still be woefully far away from owning a spirit”

    Practical Steve @ ~53:00 — Illustrates the extreme rarity and desirability of early EM machines like Spirit in collector culture

  • “If money was no object, I would own it...But I can't afford it.”

    Practical Steve — Reflects common collector constraint: desire for classic Elvira machines exceeds financial accessibility for many enthusiasts

Entities

Spencer KlingonpersonSeth HolderpersonPractical StevepersonJohn PapadiukpersonDeep Root PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyZen PinballcompanyPinside

Signals

  • ?

    industry_signal: Deep Root Pinball enters market with John Papadiuk as designer, but community expresses skepticism due to failed Magic Girl project and broader history of new manufacturer failures

    high · Multiple speakers note 'many have tried and many have failed' and express skepticism despite unconfirmed rumors of improved pre-order practices

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball community operates on reputation and trust networks; collectors build extensive collections through babysitting and skill-sharing rather than ownership, enabled by Pinside community connections

    high · Practical Steve's collection is 65% non-owned machines; Jim lent high-value games based solely on online reputation; Pin Willie traveled to help repair despite being strangers

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Jersey Jack Pinball rumored to have locked down Pirates of the Caribbean and Toy Story IP, potentially blocking Stern from these properties regardless of production timeline

    medium · Spencer speculates JJP may be 'blocking Stern from having that title by sitting on the licensing for it' based on pattern of credible sources mentioning both titles

  • ?

    product_strategy: Manufacturers show willingness to license aging franchises (Pirates of the Caribbean) with no upcoming film releases, suggesting IP availability and timelessness of theme matters more than contemporary movie cycles

    medium · Spencer notes Pirates franchise 'is kind of already being put to bed. There's no...I don't think any additional movies coming out soon'; hosts discuss Wizard of Oz as timeless 75-year-old property

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.353

0:00
Welcome to the Spinner's Lit Pinball Podcast. I'm your host, Spencer Klingon, and tonight's episode is Episode 10, Table for Three. With me, as always, is my co-host and engineer, Seth Holder. Hey, everybody. And tonight, our special guest host is Practical Steve. Welcome to the show, Practical Steve. Yeah, nice to have you, Steve. Oh, thank you for finally having me. You guys only mention me every week, so it's about time. Yeah, we had to get you on, and now you're here, and we're happy, man. This is going to be a lot of fun tonight. It's really good a time. Cool. Let's just jump right into it. So, Steve, how did you first discover or get into pinball? Well, I've always loved pinball, even since I was like a little kid. If I went to the arcade, like, and there were video games and pinball machines, pinball machine almost always got my money. I remember some of them really vividly like Whitewater was a game that I remember a lot just looking at it and those ramps and being so poor of a pinball player and being so young that even if I just hit that left hill ramp that was the most exciting thing ever so pinball has always really grabbed me even when I was in my 20s and if I went to a bar with friends if there was a pinball machine like I'd always go play it, and then I hit my 30s, and I moved to the suburbs, and I went to a couple pinball shows, and I was like, hey, I have a house, and I now have disposable income because I don't go out every night anymore because I'm not in my early 20s. I should buy a pinball machine, and I went on Craigslist, and I did that. Did you have a particular machine you were after? Was there, like, a machine from your childhood that's like, oh, man, I really want this particular title? Of course, like, yes. But that's when I was naive and thought that they were all the same price and I probably could just get anything for any amount of money. I came in probably after you guys were – criminal machine pricing started to go up considerably. The machines that when I got in, you could have gotten for, like, $1,000, $2,000 less the year before. so yeah I wanted a Whitewater but I didn't have the money for a Whitewater and I wanted a Medieval Madness but even back then they were still they were already like $7,000-$8,000 and that wasn't happening so I wanted, I knew I wanted a DMD because I was one of those new collectors that thought any game that was pre-DMD was boring and I was very wrong and I wanted it to be in my price range so I ended up getting one of the best DMDs ever, Williams Hurricane Oh I thought you were going to say Shack Attack No, no, not quite. I probably would have been better off with a shack attack, but I got a hurricane first, and that's what started it all. I got a hurricane, and from there, it was, like most people say, it was like an addiction. It was like a sickness. Nice. And that's, yeah, that's kind of how we, I mean, more or less how most of us start, you know. Well, that's cool. Did you get help when you got your first one? I mean, most people either are pretty nervous to go just blindly get their own machine, never having owned an arcade machine. Me personally, I had a friend that I was able to lean on that kind of went with me to get my feet wet. Show me. I wish. When I started, I had literally no one.
@ ~88:00
organization
Pin Willieperson
Jimperson
Spy Byronperson
Steve Charlandperson
Williamscompany
White Watergame
Medieval Madnessgame
Hurricanegame
The Wizard of Ozgame
Elvira and the Party Monstersgame
Scared Stiffgame
Pirates of the Caribbeangame
Toy Storygame
Guardians of the Galaxygame
Back to the Futuregame
Elvira 3game
Magic Girlgame

announcement: Zen Pinball actively developing virtual tables based on community wishlist items (Back to the Future, E.T., Jaws) to capture demand for iconic franchises unavailable in physical form

high · Seth notes Zen released E.T. and Jaws virtually and now Back to the Future; community recognizes these as 'titles that people have been wanting in real life'

  • ?

    product_launch: Elvira 3 announced at Texas Pinball Festival 2024 but hosts speculate on Expo prototype availability, suggesting long development cycle with uncertain demonstration timeline

    medium · Discussion of timing: 'it's been a year since they...well, no, well, they announced it at Texas last year'; hosts debate whether enough time has passed for prototype reveal

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Stern maintaining strict information control on upcoming titles; no leaks or confirmations despite community speculation about Guardians of the Galaxy and other projects

    high · Spencer: 'Nothing from Stern. They've been very, very...holding close to the vest. I mean, you know, in my pipeline, I haven't heard anything off the grapevine'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Global pinball community demonstrates deep commemorative practices; French show organizes 15 Spirit machines in honor of deceased legendary collector Steve Charland, showing international cultural cohesion

    high · Spencer discusses French tribute: '15 spirits lined up. And it's just amazing...banners above commemorating him' in honor of collector who passed away

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community sentiment toward new pinball manufacturers has shifted to cautious skepticism following repeated failures; Deep Root Pinball faces uphill battle for credibility despite designer pedigree

    high · Multiple expressions of doubt: 'I'll believe it when I see it'; 'many have tried and many have failed'; references to Magic Girl failure create hesitation about taking pre-order risks

  • ?

    content_signal: The Spinner is Lit podcast operates as informal community gathering space where industry news, rumors, and speculation are discussed in peer-to-peer format; hosts emphasize authenticity and organic conversation over polish

    high · Spencer: 'our show is not the most polished, but it's honest because just us pinheads rapping...just organic and natural...friends sitting around talking'

  • $

    market_signal: Collector entry barriers remain high; classic machines (Whitewater, Medieval Madness, Elvira games) priced at $7,000-$8,000+ creating secondary market for babysitting/lending arrangements as workaround

    high · Practical Steve unable to afford Medieval Madness at $7-8K; discusses Elvira machine pricing as 'not $2,500' yet still unaffordable; builds collection through trust rather than purchase

    • 3:29
    I didn't even, like, know what Pinside was. I was just, like, looking on, like, webpages for, like, any info I could find, like, how to break a machine. a pinball machine down and fold it up and put it into a car and how to... Well, at least you knew that much. I knew that much. I did. I mean, they don't call me practical Steve for no reason. I'm very practical. I did, like, my research. I looked up how to do, like, run the tests on the game when I got to the house, and I printed out the manual and put it into a three-ring binder before I got to the guy's house. And I read, like, Bear Kamaroff's pinball machine repair guide before I bought a pinball machine. And I did my homework, but I didn't have that, like, community yet at all. So, I mean, like, I went to the guy's house. I saw it on Craigslist, went to the guy's house.
    4:17
    Like, I opened it in front of him, and he was like, oh, I didn't know how to do any of that. And, I mean, it was a working hurricane, and it was in great shape.
    4:26
    And I got in the car and drove it home, and it was really exciting. But, no, I didn't have that person yet. It was all just, like, online and not even a community. I never found, like, RGP until much later either.
    4:39
    So I didn't have that community at first. Probably a good thing. Yeah, probably. I never – were you on RGP a lot? I posted, like, on there, like, twice and never went back. Like, I never – I didn't like the format. I didn't like anything. That was me. I've been on there maybe twice since I've gotten to the hobby. Yeah. So, yeah, so, I mean, like, when you first started, you know, learning about it, you kind of had to teach yourself maintenance. I mean, did you have, you know, any background in mechanical skills or just kind of learn going along?
    5:14
    Oh, well, funny you should say that. I did have zero background skills in repair or troubleshooting. I like to famously say that before pinball, I only had a hammer and a screwdriver, and if I couldn't fix something by hitting the hammer on top of the screwdriver into the thing, it wasn't going to get fixed. And, but since then, like, now I have, you know, a tool chest, and I, you know, have a soldering iron, and I have a digital multimeter, and I learned how to, you know, do so much through PitBall that, like, the one thing my wife loves the most about the hobby is that I apply it all over the house. I fixed my dryer when it went down. I mean, this was like my second kid had just been born like two weeks prior. My dryer breaks when I'm like washing like poopy clothes like every other minute. And I was like, I got this. I like open the dryer and like get out the digital multimeter. I'm like, it's this fuse. I go down to the fuse store and I put down 30 bucks and I bring home a fuse. And it's like, I did that. I didn't have to even call repairman and spend all that money. and that's all because of pinball.
    6:25
    So no, I had zero repair knowledge before this at all and now I feel like not only can I do a lot of stuff to a pinball machine, I can also do a lot of stuff around the house. That's got to be heartening for our listeners. We have a lot of folks that are getting into the hobby or are just completely happy having somebody else come to their house to do the repair works, do the heavy lifting. If you can follow directions, you can do it. And you will find people that will help you. Like, I did eventually find Pinside, and I did learn a lot from Pinside. But the best thing was the people I met through Pinside.
    7:03
    I had the GI. I finally realized the GI was out on the hurricane, and I was looking in the back box, and I never really looked at the back box that hard because everything worked. So I was like, great, it works really well. I'm not going to look at it too much because it might break if I look at it. and I figured out that the connector was completely burnt to a crisp so much that the wires were just directly soldered onto the board, and I was like, oh, well, I need to fix this, and I was like, I'm really nervous, and I'm talking on Pinsight about it, and this guy that's pretty close to me, like, you know, a ways away, but, you know, in my area, he's like, hey, I'll come over. I know how to do this. I have the tools. I'll teach you. Awesome. And Willie, Pin Willie on Pinsight, He drove over from Sabathapool. It was like an hour-something drive and stayed here all day, didn't know me, just, like, showed me how to do stuff. And, like, I mean, when he showed me, he showed me everything. Like, I didn't know how to use any of the tools yet.
    8:01
    And that was amazing. But what was even better was that, you know, we became friends after that. And we've hung out at shows. And we've bought and sold multiple pins to each other. And that friendship was worth more than the knowledge, which was already worth so much. Right. That's how all of us, like all three of us here talking right now, we all met because of Pinside and because of just the local community. And like tonight at league night, you know, league finals, you know, everybody all met through Pinside except for maybe Seth, you, and Eric because you work together, right? Yeah, but I think the three of us behind this mic all met because of me reaching out to Mo on Pinside and noticing his amazing collection and thinking to myself, there's a guy that has all the machines I want to own someday. And so him and I had been corresponding. And I said, hey, you know, I know you don't know me from Adam, but if you ever decide to have an open house, I'd love to drive out and check out your collection. And so he ended up inviting me and said, hey, can you pick up Spencer on the way? He lives near you. And then I think we coordinated and I picked you up, Steve, I think at the same time. So I literally met you all through Pinside through going to a party. So it's interesting how it keeps all of us connected. Yeah, it's true. I mean, I'll say what people want to say about Pinside. There's the negativity, there's trash talking, there's threads about nothing. But what there is, if you can find it, is there is a community and you just find those threads and those people that, you know, live near you and you make your own little world there. And that, I think, helps so much make the hobby so much more. To me, I've always said that if it weren't for the friends I made in this hobby, I'd probably have gotten bored with it a long time ago. I mean, look at any time we go to a show, what do we do the most of anything? Dollar games. No, not even that. No. No? Did you play a lot of dollar games?
    10:14
    And it's not even, what do we do the most? We don't play pinball the most. we stand around and talk about pinball more than we're actually playing pinball. Like a bunch of nerds. I know, like a bunch of nerds. You know, it's so true. It's the people. I mean, the pinball is just, you know, the side benefit. It's like when you guys all went down to Banyan last year, I ended up having to cancel last minute. You know, and I called you just for the road trip because I'm like, the guys are out on the road trip. Damn it, I should be there with them, and I'm not. So I'm just going to call. You know, so we talked for a while. And it was great because for a little bit I got to be there with you guys, you know, and that was just fun, you know. I had a great nap on that part of the car ride.
    10:56
    Oh, good burn. Yeah, but you know what, that's the magic of pinball. I talk about that a lot, and it really is, you know, is it brings people together and forges, it creates and forges friendships. I don't know if people realize how important that is nowadays. I mean, like, we have people in our community we know that are, you know, like scumbag flippers or just people that aren't, like, you know, on the up and up. And then we have the people that we know and that we trust. And when you get to that level of trust with people, like, that is a magical thing. And the only reason I have, like, if you look at my collection on Pinside, probably 65% of those games have never been owned by me. they've just spent time in my house because I've babysat them for friends or I've fixed them up for friends people don't realize you can build a collection on trust not just money, you don't have to be rich to have a good sized collection, all you have to do is gain trust in people and respect in people and a friendship level that you will do that and And that, to me, has been a huge part of collecting for me is just fixing up other people's games and babysitting for them. Yeah. Yeah, once you've got the skills and you've got the reputation, it's amazing how many collectors out there either don't have time to work on their games, wrench on them, or don't have the space. Yeah. So it's really easy to open. If you've got a couple slots open to say, hey, you know, I can babysit that for you, give it a shop job. Yeah. It's that GI issue, whatever. Exactly. I'm going to rebuild all your flippers. You buy me the flippers, I'll rebuild them all. I mean, our good friend Jim, who is one of my oldest friends in the hobby, I met him through a post on Pinside. I went to California. This is funny. I don't know if you guys have ever even heard this story. Our friend Spy Byron, we're at California Extreme, and I talked to him a little bit on Pinside, and I met him there. and we chatted and hung out and he was like, oh yeah, one of my issues is I got too many pins and not enough space. And I was like, oh man, that's the opposite of my issue. I got too much space and not enough pins. And then after the show's over, I go on pin side and I just make an offhand joke like, hey, if you ever need space for a pin, you should let me know. Ha ha ha. Like, you know, I think it's a joke. And then Jim sends me a private message. He's like, hey, he's like, you mentioned to your friend that if you ever need space for a pin that you haven't. And he's like, I've got pins.
    13:36
    I need to put them in spaces. He was like, do you want to take one? And I was like, I don't even know you. And I asked around. Everyone's like, oh, he's the nicest guy in the world. And I'm like, okay. And it turns out he is like the nicest guy in the world. and only because he looked around and found my reputation online that he was like, I'm going to reach out to this guy and just lend him a pin. I mean, out of nowhere. Like, who does that? That's cool. Who does that? And what was it? It was, what was the first game I did for him?
    14:05
    Wasn't that Funhaus? It was Funhaus. Yeah. It was Funhaus. Wow, what a great game. Yeah, what a great game. A game I never would have had. I can't afford a Funhaus. But I've had, through him, I've had a Funhaus, I've had a Whirlwind, I've had an 8-Ball Deluxe. I mean, heavy hitter games that I can't afford. And right now, I've got the nicest Whirlwind that I've ever seen sitting over there because I fixed it up for him. And he gave me the chance to. So, yeah, it's really great. That's what it's all about to me. Pinball is about the people and the reputation you build for yourself and the friendships you make. Exactly. That's kind of how Seth started doing the show with me because, you know, I started and did the first four episodes by myself. And then episode five, I said, Seth, just come on the show. I want to do a show. Let's just do one. And we wrote a show notes up and about 15 minutes, jumped on and did a show and had a great time. and through that said... See, I figured you had really heavy blackmail on staff. No. I figured you must have had some dirt or something. Well, no, because, you know, every time we take a Bay Area trip, you know, we're in the car together because we always end up carpooling, and it's just like we're talking now. It's basically the same conversations we're having, and that's, you know, we talked about it. I said, you know, all we're doing on the show is just having the conversations we're having and bring other people in and talk to them, too. And so it's a very, you know, that's why, you know, I always tell people, I'm always honest when people say, look, you know, our show is not the most polished, but it's honest because just us pinheads rapping, you know. And I think that's what I really like the most about the show. And just the positive feedback I've been getting from the listeners is kind of the same thing. They like it. It's just organic and natural, and it's just friends sitting around talking.
    15:57
    So it's a really good time, always. And he had some blackmail. I had some blackmail, yeah. Well, just like you, Steve, right now, currently, I only own two of the games of the eight in my collection. And the rest are just, you know, I'm babysitting for friends. And, you know, so that's great. I mean, you know, myself, I've owned, I think, 15 total of every era. So what's your favorite era, by the way? Oh, good question. I really like the for back of a letter term I really like the alphanumeric era I love all pinball I mean I love everything from a single player wedge head up until like the sterns but my favorite era is always those just like the games that were they just figured out how to make them a little complicated where like they had like you know a couple modes and like a multi ball and you know a jackpot, but, like, not too crazy where it's like Lord of the Rings where you need to, like, collect 15 different characters and go on 14 different quests.
    17:12
    So that era right there, I think, is one of my favorite eras, the 6111 kind of era-ish. What's your desert island pin if you can only have one pinball machine the rest of your life?
    17:24
    That's easy, and it's not even in that era. It's spirit. There you go. Yeah, I've said before, if I could sell my entire collection to buy a spirit, I would, but I would still be woefully far away from owning a spirit. Well, right now, there's like 15 sitting in France, so, you know. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, it is.
    17:46
    Yeah, there's a French, for the listener that might not be super tuned in, there's a show in France, and in honor of our good friend Steve Charlin that passed away, Steve Charland previously at a show a few years ago got how many spirits together? Was it seven? Seven spirits together. They, in honor of him, got 15 spirits lined up.
    18:11
    And it's just amazing. It's a really beautiful sight. And there's these banners above commemorating him. And I'm sure wherever he's at, he's looking down and smiling and just loves it. And I'm sure part of him's like, those sons of bitches has got 15 spirits and I only got 7. I can hear him saying it. I love it.
    18:32
    So yeah, that's pretty amazing that this show in France has 15 spirits. I apologize. I don't know the name of the show. But you know what? That shows the power of pinball. Here it is, you know, literally the other side of planet Earth or as I like to call it, planet pinball. And probably, maybe, maybe one or two of those guys might have actually met Steve in person. But he had such a huge impact on our silly little hobby that half a world away, you know, they're, you know, raising banners and putting together a collection of spirits and saying, hey, Steve, this is for you, buddy. You know, so the awesome, good for them, you know? Yeah. That's an awesome, when I saw that come up today, I was just like, wow, you know, and I was at league finals and I'm showing it to everybody going, check this out. And everybody's just like, that is so awesome. I'm trying to find the name of the show, but I cannot find it. That's okay. You know what? We'll look it up later. Or, hey, the listener, you can look it up. You can do a Google search. I'm sure you can find something. So it'll all be good. Hey, speaking of news, we got the news of the day, or, you know, news of the show. That was a really smooth transition.
    19:45
    Did you like that? That was the best segue ever. I'm sorry, man. You know, best segue ever? News. We have news. News, all right. The biggest news right now in the last week or so, I think, has been John Papaduke.
    20:01
    And it was never really an announcement, but it's now linked to a new company that's supposed to be manufacturing pinball machines called Deep Root out of Texas. And for the listeners that might not know a lot about this, John Papaduke was a pinball designer for several years of Valley Williams in the 90s, put out some really classic games, most notably World Cup Soccer, Theater of Magic, Telzer Arabian Nights, Circus Voltaire.
    20:34
    He's had kind of a rocky last few years trying to make games on his own, and that didn't bear so well. but he's working for them now and supposed to be putting out games in the not too distant future and we'll see how that pans out for yet another new company that we don't know how much, if anything, they actually know about manufacturing pinball machines.
    20:58
    Yeah, the question is, are people going to fall prey to the pre-order silliness and fork over cash to get on a new machine that may or may not materialize. Yeah, what you kind of left out was that a lot of people had money invested in Magic Girl, and they never got their machine. She's a John Papaduke machine. Yeah, right. And they also never got their money back. Right. She's now part of the company.
    21:30
    For the listeners that don't know the whole story, yeah, now he's got a new company, or he's with a new company. So, yeah, it was a pretty bad debacle. Well, the rumors are, and these are just rumors, I don't have facts yet, the rumors are that they're not going to take any pre-order money and they're not going to ask for anything up front, that they're going to manufacture games and have them in the box, ready to ship before they ask anybody for a penny. That's the rumor.
    21:58
    I think that's the only way they can do it. I'll believe it when I see it. You know, yeah, you know, I'm not holding my breath because, let's face it, folks, you know, many have tried and many have failed.
    22:11
    Pinball is hard. Pinball is hard, and it's a very unique and interesting monster. But you know what? For now, I'll say best of luck to Deep Root Pinball in Texas and look forward to seeing what you guys can come up with. And this is that. I'm going to be very gracious about this. You know what? I'm not going to crucify anybody until I hear more of the facts.
    22:35
    As a fellow pinhead and guest of the show said not too long ago, I will be cautiously optimistic. That's a shout-out to you, Fat Train. Hope you're doing well tonight.
    22:50
    So you have some news about something, right, Seth, about Zen? I do have some news about something. Zen Pinball, right? Give us that stuff. Yeah. They just recently announced their latest virtual table they're coming out with. They've been releasing some kind of classic tables. And I think I called this one out just because there's always a little bit of excitement. There's always a little bit of shouting from the community that they want this pen in real life, not just virtually. And that's Back to the Future. Oh, did they really? I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. So they released a trailer. Is that the Pinball Arcade? No, this will be the other company, Zen Pinball. Oh, wait. Oh, they're going to make an original. It's not going to be the old Data Eastern Back to the Future. Correct. This is a Back to the Future trilogy themed pin.
    23:50
    With ZZ Top being the third part of it? We can only keep our fingers crossed. Was ZZ Top in Back to the Future Part 3? Yeah, they have just a little cameo where they were playing music and they did a little spinning of the guitars and the drum like they do on stage. So I haven't – this is their third title release from the 80s, if you will. They released E.T. and Jaws already, I believe. So those are all titles that people have been wanting in real life, so it's kind of interesting that Zen is kind of picking up on that vibe and at least giving the folks something virtually. People wanted an E.T. pin in real life? Well, Jaws for sure. Oh, yeah, yeah. I won't contest Jaws. I still don't get that. I mean, Jaws, yeah, it's a great movie, but, like, it's a tense movie about not seeing a shark most of it. I don't understand how that translates to a pinball machine that well.
    24:45
    It's about nostalgia, right? I guess it must be. Yeah. So. Jaws has great dialogue. I got to give it that. Oh, for sure. So does Goodfellas. but I don't know if it would be a good pin. I guess it would be a good pin. It would be a Sopranos pin, right? Yeah. And a Kingpin. Yeah. I really like Kingpin for what it's for. Really? I love that game. So speaking of titles that people are wanting and not hearing from, do we hear any rumors coming out of Expo coming up or any other shows? Do we think we're going to get any announcements from JJP or Stern on what's coming out? Yeah. Nothing from Stern. They've been very, very, you know, holding close to the vest. I mean, you know, in my pipeline, I haven't heard anything off the grapevine.
    25:35
    Jersey Jack Pinball, JJP, a big rumor is, you know, probably heard by now, that rumored to be their next title is Pirates of the Caribbean. And the rumor is they may be showing that. That would feel strongly. Yeah, because someone I know wants Toy Story in the worst way possible. So I heard it's been like selling plasma on the side, saving up for that title. Did they announce Dial Dated Expo? Was that when they announced it? Last year, yes, sir. At Expo? Okay, so it's been years. Well, they didn't announce it. They pulled the – I mean, yes, they announced it, but they pulled the tarps that they showed it, and they had, I think, three or five playable. I remember. Playable.
    26:22
    Yeah. So we might see a partially finished prototype game this year. So, yeah, that'd be nice.
    26:32
    If you follow along on Pinside, the folks seem pretty – it's hard because you've got the folks like me that have desire versus knowledge. Yeah, yeah. But if you try to weed out the people that are just like, I really want this and focus on the people that traditionally are somewhat after. Yeah. And it's usually because they have some sort of connection. They have a connection. It seems like both Pirates and Toy Story are in the mix, and it's probably because I'm guessing they have locked down both of those titles in terms of IP already. And so maybe if it's not the next one, it's coming at some point, or at least they're blocking Stern from having that title by sitting on the licensing for it. But I haven't heard anything concrete. I mean, Pirates would be a little bit of a disappointment just because the franchise is kind of already being put to bed. There's no – I don't think any additional movies coming out soon for it. There's already a pin out for it. It's a perfectly fine pin. I don't know if we need – Yeah. If we're going to come up with new pins with unoriginal themes, let's pick an unoriginal theme that hasn't been done. Yeah, I feel you on that. Unless they, like, really make it, like, super generic where it's not so much, like, Johnny Depp's face and it's just, like, more pirate-themed. Swashbuckler. Exactly. More pirate-themed. Like, more like the ride before it was, you know, before they added Johnny Depp into it. Just kind of like a general pirate kind of thing. But if they tailor them to the movies, then it's going to be, yeah, very specific and... Right. I would rather see that because I'm always up for a good pirate thief, you know? So, yeah. We'll see. If it's J.J. Jack, there's going to be some cool stuff in it.
    28:17
    I'm optimistic. In terms of certain rumors, though, I think I've mentioned this on a prior episode, I've gotten several confirmations that Guardians of the Galaxy is coming up next.
    28:30
    Yeah, and they keep denying that, but who knows. That's what they're supposed to do. It's such a weird timeline, though, because the second movie just came out. The third one, is there a third one slated yet? Is it going to be out any time soon? There's definitely a third one slated, but no, it'll probably be a while. Yeah, exactly. Right. Well, plus, aren't they supposed to end up teaming up with the Avengers coming up soon? I don't know about that. I'd have to get my nephew, who's a comic book genius, to fill me in on those kind of details. But I just, in terms of release timing, I mean, you know, it's not like Aerosmith had something great going on. I don't think they necessarily always feel like they have to tie it to some blockbuster release I guess that's very true I mean they do sometimes But I think if it's a universally loved title Then it should be timeless Yeah Well yeah look at Wizard of Oz man I mean that a 75 franchise and it is timeless I mean you make a great point and it done well and it a fun game It's a good shooter. Yeah. It's a fun shooter. No. It's a good player. It's a good player's pin. Good player. It's a player's pin. Yeah. It's a good player and a fun shooter. There we go. All right. So I think that's the news and the rumors for tonight, unless anybody's got anything else to add to that. So, all is kind of quiet. Do you guys think any Elvira 3 announcement at Expo? They've said they're going to, they've said they're going to make it. They've announced it. Yeah, I mean, it's coming. Do you think they're going to have anything to show? Do you think they're going to leak anything? You know, they may. I mean, it's been a year since they, well, no, well, they announced it at Texas last year, right? In October, right? This year.
    30:12
    No, I thought they announced it this year. Oh, this year? Okay, no, it was, you're right, it was this year. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, it probably hasn't been long enough then. They might have something though. You never know.
    30:22
    Give me a little something something. Give me a little something something about Elvira. Something something something. Yeah, I'm excited to see something. It's a dream thing for you, isn't it, Steve? You both said something at the same time. I'll take Seth's question first and follow up with Spencer. So isn't that a dream thing for you? Well, I love Elvira. I love the Elvira pins. Those are big ones from my childhood that I remember playing a lot. And unfortunately, they're both priced out where I can't have them.
    30:50
    Elvira and the Party Monster is a great game. It's not a $2,500 game, though. If money was no object, I would own it.
    30:59
    I do think Scared Stiff is the price point that it is, correctly. I wish it was cheaper, but I just can't afford it. But I love both those pins. I'd have both of them in a heartbeat. If they made a third one, I would start Googling things about, like, how to have a midlife crisis, how husbands convince their wives to buy Maseratis, like, try and figure out some kind of way to, like, make that my first new in box.
    31:29
    Yeah, so I'm interested to see what they do with the franchise. Plus the artwork by Greg Ferris, right? Greg Ferris and Dennis Dorman are doing it. So the same team that's done the first two is doing the third one. I don't know. I think it could be a really great thing. It's probably going to be a home run, if not a grand slam. I mean, yeah. And that's where I was going to go with, you know, one of the same things. You know, I know you're a huge Elvira fan or at least to the game. And just like you, I agree. You know, not only that, and most pins I buy, I buy because Rusty loves them. It's like happy wife, happy life. She likes them. I don't care. Pinball. So like Black Rose. I mean, I probably would have bought it anyway at the price I got it for, and it was a screaming deal, and I liked the game well enough. That's Rusty's Grail Games. I was like, damn, get that in here. But, yeah, she loves both the Elvira games. And it's like, so, you know. If Stern's listening, if they could make either, like, a really great, like, The Cure Band pin or, like, a really great pin based on the show This Is Us, like, I could really get my, like, phone to inbox. Or a Friends. Oh, please, make a Friends pin. And I will get the Ellie version in here so fast, my wife will be like, yes, here's the checkbook. Yes, please make that happen. Yes. Right on. That's funny. I think friends would probably spell in my household as well. That's funny. Oh, really?
    32:51
    Hell yeah. See, for us, it would have to be like Dexter, you know. I could see them making that a few years ago. I can't now. Yeah. So definitely a time frame where it wouldn't have surprised us. Or another Doctor Who. Yeah. She's totally on board for another Doctor Who pin. So I think that's covering the news And now we have Upcoming shows Yes, yes indeed I'll kick things off We got the White Rose Game Room show coming up September 29th And 30th at the York Fairgrounds and Expo Center In beautiful York, Pennsylvania This is A show that's got On average about 150 machines It's arcade and pinball. I've never been. It's an East Coast show, but from what I can tell on the pictures, it looks like it's primarily pinball. It looks like they've got a great flea market out front.
    33:51
    A bunch of tournaments. They even have free tournaments. So trying to get people that are casual players interested and involved in competitive play. So there's a couple tournaments going on for them. no entry fees and just a bunch of fun prizes given out. And then they have, of course, an IFPA tournament for those that are the competitive ones that want to earn points for improving their rankings in the world of competitive pinball. So lots of good stuff going on there.
    34:23
    It is open both Friday and Saturday, and it opens at 10 a.m. on Friday, that closes at 8 p.m. and Saturday it's 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. So two days of pinball heaven out in York, Pennsylvania.
    34:38
    That's the White Rose Game Room Show. Awesome. I have an upcoming show and it is probably one of the first pinball show ever and it's the longest running. Pinball Expo in the Chicagoland area, actually technically Wheeling, Illinois. And it's the 33rd annual. It's coming up Wednesday, October 11th through Sunday, October 15th. This is the big one. This is the Industry Insider Show. And just regular folk can go too. And of course they're going to have tournaments and games on free play. And all the pinball luminaries will be there, the designers. Jersey Jack of Jersey Jack Pinball is giving the fireside chat where he kind of kicks it and hangs out with all of us pinball fans. Gary Stern of Stern Pinball will be doing to talk.
    35:31
    You can go to their website, which is KimballExpo.net and that's going to give you a complete listing of each day and the guest speakers and the tournaments and everything else that's going on. If you're near the Chicagoland area next month, check it out, man. From what I hear, I've never been, but from what I hear, it's a must-see show.
    35:57
    Steve, you've got a show for us. in Houston, I believe. Oh, yeah, sorry, I was just answering some comments over on the Facebook page for the Golden State Pinball Festival coming up in May. I know I'm not supposed to talk about that right now, but, you know, I'm the social media director for the Golden State Pinball Festival coming up. It is in your blood. Yes, coming up May 18th through the 20th in beautiful Lodi, California. Someone was asking about our RV hookups, and I said they're going to be more plentiful than before and reservable. But anyway, I'm here to talk about the Arcade Expo 2017 in Houston. It's put on by the Houston Area Arcade Group. It's October 20th and the 21st. There's going to be more than 200 pinball, arcade, and console games.
    36:44
    What's your guys' favorite console? Game? No, just console. System? Yeah, system. I'm a Nintendo guy. Yeah, me too. Sega Genesis. You guys are wrong. There's going to be tournaments. swap meets cosplay contests, if you guys could dress up as any cosplay character, which guys, which character would you guys dress up as? Sailor Jupiter. I got the legs for it.
    37:10
    Yes, you do. And you guys know that. The listeners are going, how the hell do they know this? I wear shorts in the summer a lot. You answered that alarmingly fast.
    37:20
    You've given it deep thought. I'll go with the answer that, because I've already dressed up as him, but I'd go as Sully from Monster Oh, I thought you were going to say Sully I could totally see you doing that And I never would have pegged you for a Sully guy But now that you said it, it's like, dude, you are That's so cool You're really more of a Mike in personality But more of a Sully In physique, I would say You're Alluding to body hair Anyway, yes, the Arcade Expo 2017, October 20th and 21st Guests include Brian F. Collin He's the creator of Rampage and Xenophobe, the game.
    37:59
    Dirty Donnie will be there. And Jerry of Multimorphic and P3 will be there. So that is the Houston Arcade. Which they are shipping now. They're shipping the show? No, the P3, Multimorphic. Lexi Lightspeed is shipping. Good for them. Very exciting.
    38:18
    So that's awesome. All right. Cool. Show news. I think that wraps up show news for tonight. And what's next on our agenda, Seth? We got the game of the week. And you picked a Jim Dandy. You picked one that all three of us owned. So no shocker there. That makes it, greases the wheels, so to speak. Tonight we're going to discuss, from 1990, the one, the only, Roller Games. Rock, rock, roller games. In my worst voice. Roller games.
    38:53
    Yes, it's 5,000 units made. It came out in 1990. It is an alphanumeric, not a DMD, based on the short-lived Roller Derby TV show. This game has many exciting features. It's got a magnet shot. It's got drops. It's got a drama of the ramp. It's got amazing call-outs, and it's got phenomenal 80s and 90s advertising on it. So you've got your references to Slice and what else is on there? GamePro Magazine.
    39:26
    Thermos. Yeah, GamePro Magazine, yeah. Not only is GamePro outdated, but also the concept of a magazine is almost outdated at this point.
    39:36
    I got a beautiful early production one with the Diamond Plate field from buddy Sean Delcini over in the Bay Area. He goes through a lot of machines and was able to connect with him and pick up one that he got and put some love into it. Really had a good time with that game. I got it at a time where I was not keeping games long. I was kind of going through a phase where I was keeping a game for a couple months and then move on to the next game and really trying to figure out what I liked. But it's a game that I definitely want to own again someday. It just scratches so many itches for me. feels like a kind of an improved high speed if you will in terms of layout and the action on it so it's got a lot of this Steve Ritchie classic feel to it so yeah excellent game what do you guys think I completely agree with the high speed two assessment and our good friend Moff has always said that as well. I think it's just got a little bit more. I love it. There's things. I also, surprisingly enough, got a nice diamond-plated one that was in good shape that someone had put a good amount of work into, but not as much as I did. I bought yours. You're welcome. And I love it. It was one of those games that was a highly sought-after game for me for a long time. and I only recently did a temporary trade, possible long-term, for another game that's my grail. So that was the only reason I got rid of it, because I love it. I think it's a great game. It's a reasonably priced game, and there's a lot of them. So you get it for a good price, and I think it's a great game that anyone should think about owning. Great first game. for somebody on a budget that doesn't want to go in new and box or can't go new and box. That's a fantastic family thing. You got a heck of a deal on yours, I think, Sven. I did, and you offered me yours at Pinnagogo, and I'd had a few drinks, and it was dark, and I just sold a Joker's, and so I took that money and flipped it over into a great plane. Decent Playfield, really pretty good playfield But a cabinet was a bit rough Looked like it had been drugged by a truck A lot But yeah, I got a good deal on it and I had fun with it For about a year and I turned around and sold it To another one of our buddies And then he moved it pretty quickly As well, so You know, I sometimes miss it Love to have another one someday I think one of the interesting aspects about that particular game Is that and I'd read this somewhere when they were first going for the license Roger Sharp at Valley Williams was looking at Roller Games, this new TV show or American Gladiators and he ended up picking American Gladiators thinking I think this is going to go somewhere it was their first season, well by the time they got the game done the show had already been cancelled and that kind of So if you picked American Gladiators how did they end up with a roller derby themed one? No, no, they picked roller games. But those were the two that we're looking at, and they went with roller games. Well, we know American Gladiators went, I don't know what, three, four, five seasons, where roller games had only gone one season, so by the time it took, you know, nine, ten months, a year, whatever it took to make the game, by the time they actually got the game released, the show had already been canceled. Oh, wow. I had no idea. Yeah, that was kind of an interesting little, you know, anecdote about the history of roller games. But it really, that game just personifies 80s cool cheesiness, you know. Whenever I look at that game, I just remember the 80s, you know, because I was a teenager, and then at the end of the 80s, early 20s. And, you know, it's like, it just brings back fond memories. So, a bit of a nostalgia there.
    43:47
    Another fun fact is that apparently if you take the Translight to a show to have Steve Richie sign it, he will only sign it on the Ladies Caboose. Yes, I heard that. A posterior signature. That is the only place he will sign that translate.
    44:03
    Interesting. That's a good place for it. You know, it works. I've heard that it's, like, one of his games that he puts the least amount of, like, stock into and, like, doesn't like it that much, but I think it's a great game. I think he sells it short. I agree. It's got a little bit of everything. I mean, you know, it's a good round game. And the early prototypes had an extra set of drops too, I believe, right? So it could have even had more interest and more depth to it had they not parted back a little bit. Yes. All right. Any closing thoughts on Roller Games, a game that we all love so much that we quickly sold? I had mine for quite a while. You did. I had mine for a little over a year. And it's only because I got a Knight Rider EM that I had wanted for so long, and the guy was like, so you want to do a temporary trade? And I was like, yes, I do, sir. Like, that is the only reason I got a roller games. So you went from late 80s cheese to late 70s cheese. I like it. Yeah, but the truck stop interest is so hot on that game. I mean, she trumps the roller derby girl. That might be a debatable question. Yeah. Let's put a poll up on Facebook. There we go. Let's do that.
    45:19
    All right. So moving on, we're going to try a new game out with you guys. There's three of us here, so I thought it would be fun to introduce what I'm calling Factor Fantasy. All right. So I hope you guys are buckled up and settled in. I've got my helmet on. Strapped in, trays are removed to the upright position. We are ready to fly. So I'm going to go through and ask you guys a series of questions. And I'm going to take turns with each of you. And you are going to respond with fact or fantasy to the statement I make. Basically acknowledging that the statement is correct or completely incorrect. And then take a moment and support your position. And I will score you guys however I wish because I'm the game host here. And we'll see who wins. This will be our first ever Factor Fantasy Game Show, and we get to see who will be the first ever winner of the Factor Fantasy Game Show here on The Spinner is Lit. Are you guys ready? I am highly competitive. Let's do this. I'm ready. Steve, you're the guest, so we're going to start with you first. Oh, for Christ's sake. Question number one. HomePen made a mistake by building Thunderbirds with an orange dot matrix display. Fact or fantasy? I'm going to go with fantasy on this one, only because I don't think that the orange dot matrix display is going to be a game changer for anyone. I think either you were in with the Thunderbirds theme and with Home Pin and what they were trying to do, or you weren't. And I don't think this is going to lose them any customers. I think they have a very narrow niche audience for this pin, and I don't think that's going to be the deal breaker with anyone. I think it's a shame because I think like basically you can't go back to dots at this point I think either you need to go LCD because the best dots possible are still not going to be as good with an LCD that Stern has with Star Wars clips you're not going to beat that so I feel like you almost need to go the other way and skip orange.dmd and go back to alphanumeric like TNA is doing. Did you just completely change your answer from fantasy to fact? No, I didn't because I said fantasy because I said this was not a game changer, but I'm explaining my stance that I think it's a shame that they did it, but I don't think it is a mistake. I just think it is ill-advised. Spencer, HomePen made a mistake by building Thunderbirds with an orange dot matrix display. Fact or fantasy? Fact, good sir. Because when they get this thing out, And, yeah, it's going to have a somewhat limited audience, but when somebody sets it down on location or even in their home, it's going to look dated. And I think that's, in the long run, going to hurt them. Look, it's just like when we went from electromechanical to early solid state. As soon as solid state started hitting the market, nobody, you know, none of the operators wanted an electromechanical anymore because that was the old technology. You got this new pretty shiny new technology. And the same thing happened again when the Matrix display came out. It was a game changer.
    48:34
    And so I think, you know, you set this game, and no matter how cool it is or how fun it might be, you set it next to, you know, a Dialed In, a Star Wars, a Batman 66, you know, a Rob's Alice Cooper coming down the pipe. I think, you know, unless it's just a phenomenal game, but I think people are going to look at it and go, yeah, but that's, you know, that's an old game. Let's go play this brand new one with the LCD. You know, it's all a pretty video.
    49:01
    I am going to award Steve one point because I think he's right. It is a fantasy. It's not a mistake. I would award you more, but, man, you really backtracked off your – I did not backtrack. You tried to hem and haw a little bit.
    49:18
    Spencer, you get zero points for that. I mean, at the end of the day, my two cents is they're trying to make it an affordable price point. So, Spencer, you're comparing it to machines that are a couple thousand dollars more in price. So I think in terms of people buying it for location, it's more likely to sell because it's a more attractive price point. $5,500 USD. Oh, really?
    49:41
    What day and age are we in that we're like, oh, that sounds reasonable? Same price as a Stern or a couple hundred bucks more. But we're talking a fully loaded, probably would be considered an LE on any other manufacturer because of the sheer amount of hardware. They decided to focus on what the players are looking at and not what the bystanders are looking at. And I think that's a good subtle difference. That one toy I saw, if you guys saw the video, and it's on YouTube, of the swimming pool. If you've ever seen the Thunderbirds, the swimming pool opens up and a rocket comes out in the show. And the mech they showed us, the swimming pool opens up and a pinball comes out. It's like, that is really, really cool. That got my attention. I have not seen one single second or one single photo of Home Pin and what it looks like at all. Maybe I will. But you were correct in your decision. Yeah. Check out that video when you get a chance, Steve. That mech is really, really – because they do. They show – in the little video, they show the old show with the rocket coming out of this one you pull. And then they show the mech with the pinball, and it looks really freaking awesome. All right. And they're really, honestly, they're not after the U.S. market. They didn't pick this thing with the U.S. in mind. If they sell zero units in the U.S., they're not really worried about it. For sure. That isn't their target. All right. Spencer, you're up next.
    51:09
    Question number two. Stern will produce a custom-themed pinball in the next two years. Facts or fantasy?
    51:17
    Facts, my good sir. And my argument for this is, we've seen lately, we've seen a couple people come out with original and licensed themes. The most recent, of course, is Total Nuclear Annihilation. You know, it's a retro theme, you know, with no dot matrix, no, you know, no LCD. Well, it actually does have an LCD that has a video display, but the scoring is old, just what numeric display, I believe, or alphanumeric. Like, you know, and it's, you know, for a smaller company, it's got a ton of interest because it looks like such a fun game to play. And I think they're at a point now where, you know, not that licensed teams have hit a wall or anything, but I really think that they're thinking, hey, you know what, we're big enough. We have the growth. We have a little bit of wheel room. Let's go crazy and do an unlicensed team. And I have heard rumors, because I know Steve Richie doesn't want to work on an unlicensed original theme for some time now, that I've heard rumors that his next game will possibly be an unlicensed original theme. And I think it's going to happen. I just think the market's ripe for it right now. Okay, Steve. Stern will produce the custom-themed pinball the next two years. Facts or fantasy? Well, I had not heard the Steve Ritchie rumor, but I'm still going to say fantasy. Stern is not interested in doing anything other than Stern's status quo. Stern has their reliable formula right now of, like, licensed movie, then band pin, then licensed movie, then band pin. And I don't see that changing anytime soon. I know that they've you know, mentioning like Dialed In has had success but I think that's based solely on the designer and how well it plays other than instead of because of the theme I think it's successful despite the theme because the theme to me is just like who cares but it's a Pat Lawler game, it's really fun, I think that's why people like that game, not because they're clamoring for that original theme, so I don't think Stern is going to be brave. I don't see it happening. So you think if Stern got the right designer and created a custom theme, it would sell? There aren't really any. Who's left? Pat Lawler. He's already won them. Richie. Oh, you're saying it's not. Mark Richie. I thought you were talking about pulling one out of retirement. No, I'm saying. No, because they already have. I think the only reason they got Pat Lawler back was because they said you can have an unlicensed theme. and that was the only way he would come back and TNA it still remains to be seen Spooky's going to do their small production run and it's going to do well but it's not going to do well compared to like how Stern does well so I just don't see Stern making a custom theme I think they're just going to keep with their formula of rock pin movie pin rock pin movie pin you know occasionally other you know licensed theme that's established All right, Steve, you get a point because I think you basically did on Spencer. I'm not going to give you zero points, so don't worry. I'm going to give you negative one points for relying on a rumor. An unfounded rumor is not a way to base the fact on. Damn. Question number three.
    54:49
    Steve, pinball pricing has peaked. A downward market price adjustment is coming. Fact or fantasy? I'm going to say fact. I do think it's peaked. I don't think we can get much higher. I think, especially with New and Box, there's going to be a little bit of, you're going to call this wishy-washy, but I think with New and Box pins, it's peaked. I don't think we can get any higher than the Batman LE. I think a lot of people, whatever it was, not even LE, Super Ultra, Golden Platinum LE, whatever it was, I think too many people got burned by that. I don't think people are going to do that again. And I think CERN got one shot at getting that much money out of people at a time, and I don't think they're going to be able to ever get that much or more again. So I think we're going to see kind of like a stagnation of new in-box and somewhat of a downward market price adjustment because people are going to just stop buying these new in-box, I think. I think the used market is going to stay pretty stagnant for the high-end stuff as well. I think the only place we're going to see increases is these old games that people suddenly discover, quote-unquote, and all of a sudden it's like the hip new dog of a game that everyone suddenly loves. Black Pyramid, yeah. Black Pyramid, suddenly people are like, oh, Black Pyramid, it's not the most boring game in the world, despite what everyone knows and should realize. I actually like that game. Yeah.
    56:23
    I would just stop talking right now. Spencer. Oh, yeah. Pinball pricing has peaked. A downward market price adjustment is coming.
    56:33
    I'm going to say fantasy. And here's my argument. I'll bring up Batman 66. If they come up with a theme, people will throw money at it like crazy because they want that nostalgia, and they will pay through the nose to get it. Batman 66 Super Quadruple LE with the cherry on top. Yeah, a lot of people feel less, they're not a little disappointed in it, but they still spent their money and they're still keeping it in their home. Look at Big Lebowski. Oh my God, it's a Big Lebowski. I have to have it. Take my money. If they come out with Muppets or Jaws or Pulp Fiction or any number, you pick a classic name. The Munsters, people will throw money. Elvira, perfect example, okay? I mean, the first game came out in, what, 88?
    57:26
    And, you know, it's a 30, 40-year-old team. If they come out with a theme, it doesn't matter what it is, and they make the game decent and fun and playable, people will throw money at it hand over fist if they've got the money to spend, and they won't care what it costs. They'll be like, I have to have it, especially if they make a super-duper LE, because there is a segment of the pinball hobbyists out there, the high-end collector, they want that high-end new-in-box game, and they don't care what it costs. They'll throw money at it like there's no tomorrow.
    57:59
    Spencer, I agree. You've got Magic Girl, Batman, Star Wars, these are all five-figure pins, and it feels like the right pin will motivate the market.
    58:13
    I could see flattening. I don't see a downward price adjustment coming yet. Steve, unfortunately you dug Black Pyramid negative one points for you Spencer, you get a point Thanks sir So what are we at now? You just wait, young man What are we at? What's the score? It is zero to two your lead there, Steve Alright, Spencer, you're up next Question number four Facebook has surpassed Finside as the go platform for pinheads fact or fantasy I going to say fact Now Pinside will always have its place but there a lot of people that still we know a lot of pinheads that have never been on Pinside. We meet them all the time. Or that don't go to Pinside, but they Facebook. And Facebook has a much larger audience, a broader reach. Everybody on the planet knows what Facebook is. pinball is a hobby, it's a very niche hobby and pin size reaches much smaller and I mean look we all met each other through pin size but yeah definitely Facebook's huge and there's multitudes of numbers of people compared to pin size and so yeah I think it's a bigger and more go-to place for pinball now Steve, Facebook has surpassed pin size as the go-to platform for pinheads Fact or fantasy? I'm going to say this is pure fantasy, Seth. It's become a great new resource, but I don't think it's going to surpass Pinside in the long run. I'm going to give you my main bullet point is it's not searchable. You can't go back to Facebook and look for repair information if you want to do it on your own. You can't look up any kind of database through the Facebook post. It's great for instant replies. I will say that much. I will say that the response rate on Facebook is much faster than Pinside, but the searchability function is not there. And also, while you get more responses, I think the quality shows a slight dip.
    60:36
    You'll get some guys saying, oh, like I took the tilt ball out of my game, and I don't know why it won't work. And, like, 15 people will all say, it's the slam tilt, blah, blah, blah. And the original poster has already stated, like, no, it's not that. But you get, like, 15 people not reading the previous things. Things get muddied in there. You get, like, a lot of bad information, which you get on Pinsight, too. But I feel like on Pinsight, like, it gets a little cleaner. It's searchable. and you're just going to get a little better quality there. I will say, though, that the EM people on Facebook are surprisingly fast and helpful. So I think there you might get a little more information a little more quickly. But, again, that information is going to be gone the day after tomorrow when your thing is fixed. Whereas I've gone on Pinside and found posts from four years ago with valuable information to fix things. Whereas that's never going to be available on Facebook. Steve, I have a secret to tell you. I 100% agree with you. You get the point for you. Thank you.
    61:50
    All right. You're up next, Steve. TX sector is worth $2,500 U.S. dollars. Fact or fantasy? Well, it's a fact, and the fact of the matter is that's what people offer them for sale and that's what people buy them at, is it intrinsically worth $2,500? That is the question. Is it worth $2,500?
    62:12
    In a monetary sense, yes, because that is what people buy and sell it at. Do I think that is... I feel a hedge coming on. Is that... Do I... No, no. This is either or. If you went into a retail store, it would be $2,500. but do I think it's got $2,500 worth of features? Yes. Is it worth the money that people pay for it? No.
    62:42
    So that is a fantasy. So you're not changing from a fantasy. I am. I am because I did not – no, because you were not clear. I was very clear. No, you weren't saying it's worth. It's worth that much because that's what someone will pay for it. I see a point for me coming. Spencer, TX Sector Is it worth $2,500? Fact or fantasy? Well, I say fantasy Because, you know Look, okay, you guys know It's my grill game, okay And when I, you know, I first discovered it It was, you could barely give them away $600 all day long And now they're, you know Selling it $2,500 But it's a fantasy. I look at that game and go, come on, man. It's an early alphanumeric Gottlieb and a great game as it is. But no, man, it's not worth $2,500. No, people are dreaming. And I think they're going to see the price on that one is going to tumble very soon because people are going to go, I've got to have it because it's the new hot game. And they're going to get it, and they're not going to dig it that much or whatever. And after a while, or they'll be like, well, this is really cool. I really like it, but I want the next new shiny object to come along. and they're going to dump it and they'll lose money.
    63:57
    Okay, let me ask a follow-up just to confirm I understand your guys' viewpoints because they're pretty close. This is just a simple yes or no kind of follow-up. Steve, you had your choice between a T2 or a TX Sector. What would you choose? T2.
    64:15
    Without hesitation. And Spencer, if you had your choice between a Fishtails or a TX Sector, What would you say? Well, you know I'd choose a TX Sector.
    64:24
    Okay. So, thus proving that Steve flip-flopped and Spencer just flip-flopped because he's saying it was worth $2,500. No, I'm saying – You both get negative two points for flip-flopping. No, this is what I'm saying. No, I will – I'm not done with this argument. If you went to a collector's house tomorrow and they had a TX Sector and you said, I really want that game. What price would I need to pay you for – you to let it walk away, what would they say? They would say $2,500. Sure. If you heard your friend tomorrow bought a TX Sector and you asked them how much they paid, what price would you expect them to say? Not a crazy grandma on Craigslist sold it for $300 and a bag of beans. I'm talking like if you went to a collector tomorrow and they were like, I just got a TX Sector, how much do you pay for it? What do you think they would say? $2,500. Thank you. That's what it's worth then. So you're now flip-flopping again? I'm not flip-flopping at all. I'm saying there's what a game is, what the reality of a price point of a game is, and there's what it's worth to you as a collector. That's what I'm asking. You're too ambiguous. Well, yes and no, because you guys know me, and you know how Copper Wire was invented. Me and my old man, I'm like no repenting. I'm going to apologize right now. So, clearly, Spencer, for flip-flopping, you get negative two. Steve, for arguing with me and flip-flopping not once but twice, you get negative three. Oh, God. Would you like to argue more? No, I would not, sir. I want to bring up my final point, though, real quick. I have never paid more than $1,200 for a game. So, you know, so you guys know I'm cheap. Do I want a TX Sector? Yes. Will I pay more than $1,200 for it? No. there it is okay next question number six Steve this is directed to you J-Pop is hated John Papa is hated but he still has a place in the industry due to talent provided he's properly managed fact or fantasy I am going to go with a controversial opinion of fact he is a horrible man he is a swindler he has no business running a pinball company in any capacity. He is, however, a talented designer in a field where there are not a lot of talented designers left, and where there is not a lot of new talented designers. So I feel that he, while he is hated, he still could design a game, but I think for him to do that, he needs to shut up, stay in the background, and just design a game, and not try and make it the John Papaduke show like he has in the past, and definitely no one should let him have it. handle the books.
    67:15
    Spencer, John Papaduke is hated, but he still has a place in the industry due to his talent, provided he is properly managed. Fantasy or fact?
    67:26
    Fantasy. Okay. Well, let's be honest here. Okay, now, with his latest run, everybody's like, but the art's so good. Well, he didn't do the art. Okay, somebody else did. As far as his games go, let's be honest here, too. He's pulled the same couple of little tricks out of his bag for every single game. Hey, let's do a magnet on World Cup soccer. Okay. Well, I'll move the magnet to the top of the play field for Theater of Magic. I'll move it to the other side of the top of the play field for Circus Voltaire, and I'll move it back to the original side of the play field, almost the same exact place for Tell of the Arabian Nights. I will say this, Tell the Raven Knights, wonderful game. There's some really cool stuff on it. Fun as hell to play. The music, the call-outs, everything. But he didn't do any of that. He came up with one or two good ideas, and he's rehashed them over and over again. The guy's a hack. He's a has-been. He's a never-was. He's got no business in pinball whatsoever, and he's really got nothing to offer. It's like, J-Pop, I hope to God you're listening to this. Dude, seriously, go away. Sell used cars, something, anything. Walk, dude. Seriously. See that? That's the exit. This way to the egress, gentlemen.
    68:43
    I'm going to be honest with you guys. When I wrote this question, I was leaning towards fact, but the arguments laid out in front of me. I'm going to go with Spencer one point. Well argued. It's all tied up. Question number seven, Spencer. I feel like this has been rigged to make it exciting at the end. I'm going to be honest with you. The end is going to blow your mind.
    69:10
    Spencer, if the rumors are true and the next JJP is a Pirates of the Caribbean, they have made a big mistake. Fact or fantasy? Fact.
    69:22
    I just don't see a lot of – look, will it be fun? Will it be a good game? But most likely, it's going to be Jersey Jack. I mean, you know, the guy makes good stuff. His team makes good stuff.
    69:33
    I just think, you know, they've already done within the last decade-ish, they did a Pirates of the Caribbean. in. That franchise is dead in the water. The latest film didn't do very well at the box office. I just don't see it being a mega hit for him.
    69:49
    I'll stand by that. I hope I'm right. I really do because I want Jersey Jack to always be successful. He comes to our local shows and he's just a terrific guy and him and Butch and the whole team they're just wonderful people. I just think I think they fired real late on this one. Steve, if the rumors are true and the next Jersey Jack pinball is a Pirates of the Caribbean, they have made a big mistake. Fact or fantasy? I'm taking the side of fantasy on this one. Like, we discussed this a little bit earlier, so I don't want to go too in-depth and too much of a rehash. But I think Jersey Jack is on a hot streak. I think people are really liking the stuff they're putting out. They've shown that they're reliable.
    70:37
    People are loving Dialed In. I think as long as they make it that Pirates of the Caribbean, but they keep it a little generic. Don't make it too specific to the movies. Just, like, give a little of the flavor of the characters people like, but don't make it too tied in. I think they can hit it out of the park. I think people want a darker theme from them, something that's not, you know, definitely not Wizard of Oz. The Hobbit got there a little bit more, dialed in, you know, has that unique feel. But I think people will like the darker, grittier theme of Pirates of the Caribbean, and I think it will be a success just like everything else of theirs has been.
    71:23
    Given the nature of the question and the emphasis on big mistakes, Steve, I think you are 100% correct. I think if Jersey Jack executes well, it doesn't really matter what the theme is. A great theme would make for a great seller.
    71:39
    A poor theme that's well executed will still do well, and I do not think it would be a big mistake. And that's all assuming Pirates of the Caribbean is JJP number four, which is total conjecture at this point. Steve, that's one point for you.
    71:53
    Going into our last question, and might I add this question is worth 500 points. L.E.B. bulbs never, ever, ever belong in an E.M. Ever. Steve, fact or fantasy? I'm very scared to answer this question because of how hard you've been on me.
    72:18
    I, I, I'm going to say, oh, because you hate my facts with a but, I'm going to say fact. they should never, ever, ever, ever, ever be in an EM, ever,
    72:34
    except on the very rare occasion that an incandescent, you have to let me finish my sentence, on the very, I've seen, it's very rare, and like my friend has a couple EMs where I've seen this, there is sometimes on a feature on a play field that you need to see lit up, like to spell something, to complete like a tic-tac-toe board, where an incandescent bulb will not light up enough so you can read it and properly play the game.
    73:05
    Can you flip it off and say that there is times when an LED makes sense in an EM? There's one time only for readability when readability can't be achieved because of how old the machine is. On like a rollover button that you can't replace that rollover button, and like a regular bulb won't light it, but an LED would light it. That is the only time it is allowed, and you have to use only a warm white frosted bulb. You cannot use any other kind of bulb. It has to be as close as possible, but for readability, it's okay. This is a one in a million allowable offense.
    73:43
    Thank you, Steve. Spencer? 99.9% no. Never. Spencer? Yeah. No, no. LED bulbs never, ever, ever, ever belong in an EM, ever. Fact, fact, never, never. It's blasphemy. It's blasphemy, man. That's pinball blasphemy. That's like, you know, that's the equivalent to eating meat on a Friday, you know, I mean, for me. It really is, you know.
    74:08
    You just don't do it, man. I mean, you take these beautiful, wonderful, you take the Gottlieb Witch Head, you're going to put LEDs in it? I mean, why don't you just paint it, you know, repaint it candy apple red metal flake. I mean, good God, man. See, I agree with everything you're saying. I'm saying that occasionally, I'm saying all of that, I'm saying all of that, plus if you can fix a feature that won't light up enough with an LED bulb so it looks like it should but not like it can. Nah, man, it's like driving, you know, it's like. It shouldn't be noticeable. It should be imperceptible. The only thing you're doing is boosting it enough so you can gain readability. But it would not – you would – the whole objective of that would be that any person playing that game would never know there was an LED bulb there. No, it would be like putting airbags in a 53 Corvette, man. It didn't happen for a reason. They didn't have them in 53. You've got to keep it original.
    75:02
    All right. Fine. All right. I've scored it. I'm not going to announce who won. I've scored it. But I do want to ask a follow-up that will not impact the score. All right. Will not. Will not impact the score. We have a winner soon to be announced. Okay.
    75:19
    All the bulbs burn out in your EM. You have no bulbs laying around. Is it okay to throw some LEDs in there until your order comes in for more incandescence?
    75:33
    No, I would just wait. You would not play the game? No. For all of them, no. Spencer? No way, man. You know what? Hey, Amazon shifts overnight. It's going to be at least a month before you get those incandescents. Then I will suffer a month without my beloved surf champ.
    75:51
    All right. I'd like to announce the winner of our first ever Factor Fantasy game show. Practical Steve, thank you for playing. You have won. Oh, yes. Only because you acknowledged that, because I'm not an absolute guy, so say never, ever, ever is. Oh, exactly. That was the trap that you didn't fall into. Yes. You know who never says never, ever, ever? Practical people. Never me. Practical people.
    76:22
    There's two types of people in this world. People that think there's absolutes and people that know better. Oh, that's rough.
    76:30
    There's never absolutes. Never, ever, ever. You know, I got to agree with you, you know, for the most part on that. But, like, with question seven with J.J.P. and Powers of the Caribbean, man, you clearly won. I mean, I was even thinking, oh, man, your argument clearly won. I never took debate in high school, so, you know, I'm just shooting from the hip here. Spencer, you did well. I did okay. You don't feel bad. Oh, I don't feel bad, but, Steve, you rocked it, man. Good job, Steve. The whole point was we all had a good time, guys. There you go. You know, and that was fun. We got to do that. That's a good segment, Seth. That was a really good segment. Well, let's move on to another well-loved segment, a top ten list. Yay! You picked this week's topic out. I did. This week's topic is our favorite electromechanical or EM pinball games. All right. So who wants to start? Why don't we let our guests start? Why, I would love to give you my top five. No, excuse me. This would be the bottom five of my top ten. Perfect. So, starting at number 10, this is a game that not a lot of people would have in their top 10 whatsoever.
    77:43
    It's a big nostalgia game for me. It's Spanish Eyes by Williams. They made 3,905 units. The design's by Norm Clark. The art's by John Craig has been attributed to the art on this pin. And that is being generous in saying that this pin has art on it because it's pretty ugly. but it's the pin that my cousins had in their house. I played it a lot growing up. It was probably one of the first pins I ever played. I love the pop bumper between the flippers, so it has earned my number 10 spot.
    78:18
    Number nine. Number nine is Amigo, 4,325 units made by Bally, designed by Greg Kimmick and art by Dick White. This is a game that has some quasi things going on with the artwork as well, just as some people might be a little sensitive to it, but it doesn't bother me. It's a game I like, and I think I like almost more so than any other reason is because I played it with you a lot, Seth, at the Pacific Pinball Expo. Do you remember playing this game a lot? I fell in love with it there, and it's one of those games where I'm a little worried, like, do I buy this game and find out that I only loved at the time because I was having a good time with Seth, or do I love this pin?
    79:04
    Yeah, yeah, I feel you on that. Do you ever get that in the pins where you're like, is it the experience more than the pin itself that, you know, maybe resonates for you?
    79:15
    Yeah, 100% agree. It's situational sometimes. Yeah, for sure. Number eight, Jungle King. This is going to be a lesser known game. It's an Adaball game, only 823 units. It's by Gottlieb, designed by Ed Kritsky and artwork by Gordon Morrison.
    79:34
    It's a rare game that I used to play at the Pacific Pinball Museum all the time. It was one of my favorite EMs. It's not a very exciting game. It's got these ten rollovers that kind of go up in curves on either side, and you can hit the ball where it'll, like, zip and, like, do all the rollovers, and it's very satisfying, and that's the only reason I like it. number 7 is 4 million BC with 3550 units these units and all this info is from IPDB it's a ballet game, it was designed by Ted Zale and the artwork was by Dick White I and not to give away any more of my list, but I like this game better than Fireball and I as far as the fun pin with the multi-ball and the zipper flippers, for me, 4 Million BC does it more so than Fireball. I know that's unpopular, but that is how I feel. I think you'd be surprised how many people would agree with that. Okay, maybe.
    80:42
    It's a great game. I love it. And then number 6 is Out of Sight. It's 1,750 units by Gottlieb, designed by Ed Kriske and art by Gordon Morrison. and I didn't realize how much I liked Ed Kriske as a designer until I made this list and realized how many pins he did that I like. So that was really interesting to find out.
    81:06
    Now, Out of Sight is the four-player version of Far Out? I believe I listed it as the four. I think so. I can look. I think basically it's the sister pin of Far Out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, they're interchangeable. I like it a lot I love the artwork on it and yeah it's just a game that really resonates with me alright so 10 through 6 what were they again real quick Spanish Eyes number 10 number 9 Amigo 8 Jungle King 7 4 Million BC and 6 Out of Sight excellent Spencer what you got for us buddy okay well first I'm going to go with you know Out of Sight and Far Out didn't make my top 10 I thought carefully about it but they did make honorable mention. So, number 10, Scott Lee's Spirit of 76, and Gordon Morrison.
    82:00
    The nostalgia, man. Played it a lot as a kid. Loved that game. It's got a really great story behind it.
    82:08
    Wayne Nance, who was at the time, I don't know if he was the vice president of Scott Lee, but he was higher up. He had stopped designing games, but they were sitting around the lunch table one day, and they said, so how many things is this going to sell? and everybody's like going 2,000, 1,500, 3,000. He says, I think it's going to sell 10,000 units. And so whoever his boss was said, Wayne, if this sells 10,000 units, I'll deliver number 10,000 to your house. And sure enough, that game sold 10,000 units. Number 10,000 to this day still resides in Wayne Nance's home with him. I've never heard that story. Yeah, it's a great story. I got that on the documentary. Small Passion. It was a great interview with Wayne talking about his Gottlieb days. And I thought that was a really neat story. But I love that game. It's mostly nostalgia, but it's still a fun game. Because I was like a 9, 10-year-old kid during the bicentennial year, and it was just really passionate spirit of that era. My number nine is Gottlieb Sheriff or Gottlieb Lawman. Also by Hayek Krinsky and art by Gordon Morrison. That's from 1971. Just I love the layout. I love the Western theme as well, but there's something about that layout, the big row of drop targets. It's just every time I get a chance to play that one at a show, I grab a couple games on it. Fun game. Number eight, Travel Time by Williams, 1973. I have no idea who designed it. I didn't look that deep into it. What's interesting about Travel Time, it's a single-player game, and it's a timed game. You get so much time, and you have a spinner on the back glass where it counts down time. You can get by hitting different shots, different targets. You can add more time. Another nostalgia thing for me, when I was a kid, my aunt and uncle had a small resort, and it was way up in the mountains. There was a natural hot springs there. In summers, I would go up and spend a week or so up there and just basically run around in the woods and fish and hang out at the Hot Springs and eat a lot of pizza because they had a pizza place. And I would play this pinball endlessly because they, well, at the time, they had only that pinball. In fact, that pinball got replaced by a solid state.
    84:33
    We talked about it earlier, Knight Rider. But fond memories of playing that game for hours and hours. Number seven, Fireball by Bally, 1972. And it goes without saying, man, I mean, early, you know, for the time, you know, three ball, two and three ball, multi-ball, the spinning disc, the artwork on that is just unbelievably, you know, just especially, you know, as a young boy, you're like, there's a devil throwing fireballs. That is so cool. Great skill shot, especially for the era. And the fact that it actually had that weird tilt on the play field. And, I mean, a real skill shot. You got a really high skill to hit that consistently.
    85:14
    And my number six is Jungle Queen or Jungle Princess, Gottlieb 1977, where I never played that as a kid. I was introduced to it at my first time I went to Pinagogo. Jungle Queen Steve, a good friend of the show and a good friend in person, owns that game. And I think that was the first game he ever bought. And he has a beautiful example that plays perfectly. And it's just the artwork on that is just mesmerizing to me. And the gameplay is just a lot of fun. So that's my top from 10 to 6.
    85:47
    Spirit 76, Gottlieb Sheriff, Travel Time by Williams, Fireball by Bally, and Jungle Queen or Jungle Princess by Gottlieb.
    85:55
    Awesome. All right, I'll start with my number 10. This one, I guess I'll give a caveat before I start the list. Obviously, the parameters were anything electromechanical.
    86:10
    Not of my generation. I grew up in the late 80s, so for me, early solid states is kind of my sweet spot. I didn't play EMs until I got deeper into the hobby. I do have an appreciation for them.
    86:26
    As a matter of fact, Practical Steve and I spent quite a bit of time at the last Pinball Expo going through a lot of the pins from the 40s and 50s and 60s and just looking at the art and playing them. So I definitely have fondness in my heart for them. But most of my enjoyment has come from the later era EM, so you'll see that kind of as a theme throughout my list. I say that all to set up the fact that I did pick an older one for my number 10. That's Teacher's Pet. It makes the list because it's my daughter's favoritest pen. She played it at a tournament at Pinnagogo a couple years back and has always loved it, and I've always kept an eye out, hoping to snag that one day for her. Aren't there some weird kickouts at the bottom of that game or something like that?
    87:15
    Yeah, it's got four kickout holes. That game's great. Yeah, it's a really neat game. I forgot I should have put that on my game. That's an honorable mention now because I should have put that on my list. That's a good one. number nine is all the way from the land of Spain and it's Sonic Butterfly so not a ton of details about this one, it came out in 77 so it's towards the end of the era but I managed to play it a couple times and just really enjoyed the geometry and the shot layout and interacting with all the play field rollovers trying to spell out butterfly, working in conjunction with the drop targets. I thought it was a pretty neat little set for that era. And the art is obviously great on all Sonic games so any time you get to play a Sonic you get to see kind of how I don know what technology they used at the time but they all wear like irons They all look fantastic Why has not every pinball machine been made at the same place that Sonic made their play fields Because those play fields are, yes, gorgeous. I'm sure it uses some sort of cancer-causing chemicals. Pure formaldehyde or something. Exactly.
    88:33
    Number eight on my list is from a 1976 Williams Grand Prix. I owned it for a brief moment. I unfortunately couldn't get it to fully work, so I moved it on to somebody that was a much better tech than me when it comes to EMs. But I've managed to play it a couple times at shows. I've never played one fully dialed in. I've watched videos of them fully dialed in, and it looks amazing. It's got the two independent bonus ladders, two spinners. I'm a sucker for spinner games and like the theme so Grand Prix makes it in at number 8 number 7 from 1975 a game I had never played until our mutual friend Jim grabbed me by the collar and pulled me and Steve over to play it and he introduced the game to me and I really really enjoyed it is Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy, the Elton John Tommy pin. It has all the things you look for, multiple flippers, not just two, not just three, but four pops. It's got stand-up targets, drop targets, and a neat little outline gate.
    89:53
    Really neat rule set, kind of typical for the mid-70s, but nonetheless, it's a really fun player and a great shooter.
    90:04
    And then number where are we at? Number six, I think we're at? I've got to make sure I don't go too far. Number six. This one I loved, moved on, and I miss it dearly. I hope to have it back someday, but maybe in better condition. It could be racially insensitive, not unlike Amigos, but the theme appealed to me, and that's Bow and Arrow. It's from Bally from 1974 has a great mechanism where your spinner builds up your bonus, and then you can use a captive hole to collect your bonus. It has that great tactile feel when the spinner's ripping. I really enjoy that game and the artwork on that game. And that is my top five. Oh, your bottom five.
    90:57
    Yes, my bottom five. That was the top of your bottom five. That is the top of my bottom five. Here's the bottom of my top five. Numbers five, I have Space Odyssey by Williams, 4,330 units, designed by Steve Kordek, art by Christian Marsh. It's a very classic space-themed pin. I love that there's the two kickouts at the flippers, so you can't really trap the ball because it just goes in there and they pop right back out. So I feel like you have to take a lot of fast shots on this game. There's a swinging target, a spinner, a great little horseshoe, and something that is always important to me in EM games, I love an EM game that has a bonus that you can collect or a bonus that you can double by your own power. And this has a double bonus. Great game.
    91:53
    Really would like to own all the top five. I'd like to own all of these someday. Number four is Flip Flop. That's by Bally. That's 5,350 units. Designed by Jim Patla. I think that's how you say his name. In art by Dick White. It's just a fun... Just a fun game. It's got four flippers and the four flip flags like they have on Bally Wizard.
    92:20
    But it's got... The thing that I love about this game that I wish they did in more pinball games, it's got the little bounce back in lanes. you know, where you can train on the out lane, uh, you can, you know, nudge the game. I love that, that, Oh, like that is, I, I don't own any games with bounce back in lanes and I love them so much. And I think the, that 80% of the reason I like flip flop is because it has bounce back, uh, in lanes. Uh, number three is old Chicago by Bally. Uh, there's a lot of these made 7,155, um, the designs by Greg Kimmick and the arts by Dave Christensen and John Yousey. I just love the artwork on this game, and I think it's just got everything I like all there. It's got, it's just a fun game, and it's a classic, and I don't know why I love it, but I love it. You know what I'm saying? Oh, I do love that it's got the two lower pops on, like, the lower half of the playfield. I love that. In EN games when they kind of just did weird stuff like that.
    93:28
    So, yeah. My top two shouldn't be any real big surprises. Number two, almost number one, Knight Rider by Bally. It's one of my favorite pinball machines of all time. I've said it a million times. It's got 4,155 units.
    93:48
    But I might have written that down from the solid state version. That doesn't sound right. For Knight Rider? Knight Rider is 4,100 years. I was there. But anyway, I just love Knight Rider so much. It's a game I remember from playing back in the day. And even though it seems, if you look at it, it's very much just a symmetrical game. There's a definite strategy there. And it's simple. And I just feel like it's like this pure pinball fun. it's one of my all time favorite games of all time period and the only game that was able to narrowly beat it out was my number one was Evil Knievel because I mean it is talk about rare I mean like I feel like I'm almost like cheating with the last two because they did make solid state versions of this but I just love Evil Knievel I love Knight Rider Evil Knievel's got the classic artwork it's just I love the layout again I just don't think it gets much better than Evil Can Evil and I want to own one so bad someday and I fully expect to never own the EM version of this game because it's so damn rare and yeah that's okay you gotta follow your passions no one's gonna judge you here this is a safe place wait till you hear some of Spencer's top five and you win this game no I'm saying they're gonna be that awesome Spencer Oh, okay. There we go. Now we're talking. All right.
    95:22
    My number five, Big Brave, or Big Indian by Gottlieb. You know, a lot of this has been nostalgia for me. You know, when I see one of these shows, I'll still play it, and I love it, and I enjoy it.
    95:34
    There was a little Quickie Mart near my house, and they had this game, and they also had my number two pick.
    95:40
    And I used to play it, you know, every day after my paper route, and I got to where I could just rack up 15 games on it every time. It's just a good game. I mean, it's got a five-bank of drop targets. It's got rollovers, pop pumpers, you know, the usual stuff on that era of pinball machine. But I love the art. I love the gameplay. My number four is a wedgehead, Gottlieb wedgehead volley. Three banks of drop targets, and it's a wedgehead. If you're a drop target fan, which I am, you know, three pop pumpers and three drop targets. And a fairly deep rule set for the day because it was a single player. Yeah, but Bally, great game. My number three, I'm kind of going off of the left field here. Interflips Dragon from 1977. Oh, look at you. Okay. Again, a game I never saw. I never played as a kid. I only discovered it just, I don't know, a couple, three, four years ago. A couple of local collector friends have them. And as silly as it is, I just love the noise that those little dragon or the Hydra head makes when you hit it. That, to me, is just whimsical and fun, and it's just fun. I enjoy it. I would have loved to put that on there, but that's a game I've actually never played. So I don't know if you guys, did you guys adhere to any rules, personal rules? Like, I couldn't put any games on that I had never actually played, even though I'm like, I know I would love Dragon, but, like, I've never played it, so I can't put it on the list. I don't think we put any rules, but, you know. it's the rules or whatever you put on yourself I know exactly I'm just wondering if anyone else had that rule for themselves or who's just well I played all the ones a lot you know all my stuff's all nostalgia based pretty much so my favorite artwork of an EM and I bet like I'd love it is Impacto if you look it up I mean I just think it's like some of the best EM art but I've never played one so I was like I can't in good conscious choose it. It's just impact, not impacto. Impact.
    97:48
    Because there is an impacto. Is there an impacto? Yeah. Wow. Oh, it's the same thing. It's the same thing, that's why. It's the same one. That's why I was confused. But anyway, so, yeah. So I had that self-imposed rule. Sorry to interrupt you, Spencer. No, no, it's okay, because it's a cool story about the impact. So, okay, my number two is Wizard by Bally based on the rock opera Tommy. That set right next to the Big Brave at the little local cookie mart where I stop every day after my paper route, and I play those two games over and over and over and over for a couple of summers. And I just, you know, fond memories of it. Whenever I get a chance to play one, you know, at a show or at a collector's house, I automatically grab a game or two on Bally Wizards. It has the flip flags, amazing artwork, great spinner setup, just a lot of fun. Really great game. And, of course, my number one, you guys already all know it. It's the actual game that all three of us have owned, and it's one of my Holy Grails, and I own it now, thanks to Practical Steve, and that's Gottlieb's Surf Camp or the two-player version of Surfer. Not only is it a great game, I mean, it's got everything for the era. It's got, well, great artwork, great theme. It's got fly-and-think-and-drop targets. It's got rollovers. It's got star rollovers. It's got a kick-out hole. It's got a spinner. The one thing it does not have is any stand-up targets. You get a double bonus automatically on the fifth ball. If you roll over all the star rollovers, there's two wire rollovers at mid-game on each side. You like those, you roll that. On any ball, you can get double bonus that way. And on the fifth ball, if you have a center five ball, you can get triple bonus. So it's like I said, it's up on two pop bumpers. The game is so important to me because the game my dad and I played all the time as a kid. And I finally have one in my home. Thank you again to Practical Steve who picked one up and got a great deal. Oh, I was stoked to get that for you. I mean, like, yeah, like it worked out really well. Like, I got it super-duper cheap, and it wasn't working at all. It needed a lot of work, but I was able to fix it up. And then I knew when I went to sell it that you were getting it because I wouldn't let anyone else have it because you wanted it so badly, and it meant so much to you. So, yeah, no, it was awesome. And, you know, I brought it to Pinnegoogle the last two years. In fact, I saw a picture a while back, something posted. Oh, it was on the Pinball News article. And there was a little kid playing it, smiling. And that, to me, man, that's the payoff of why we, you know, spend those countless hours alone in games to go to a show or, you know, have parties at our homes or other people host parties or open houses is when you see somebody and they're just smiling, they're playing that game and just enjoying it, and, you know, that's the reason for it all. And, you know, sharing the love and the joy of our hobby with others. and that's my top 10 nice, excellent that was better than I thought it could have been Spencer I don't know, Big Indian?
    101:14
    side note to that and this is a rumor I heard recently somewhere that there was a very small amount at least of back glasses made of the title Big Engine I don't know if there's any truth to that but I can see if 1974 would be right at the tail end or maybe somebody thought that they could get away with that. And apparently somebody goes, yeah, no, not good. Get that out of here. So anyway, on yours, sir. All right. Starting at number five, I'm going to go with Old Chicago.
    101:52
    This is a game that was recently introduced. Speaking of shows and people opening their houses, This is definitely a game that was introduced to me at the Banning Arcade Expo 3.0. I got to play it with some of you guys and really, really fell in love with it. Like most EMs that I like, it has to have a spinner and a set of drops. This one does. Good rule set and great art. So definitely love the 1975 Bally Old Chicago. So number four, no shocker here. I won't belabor it, but the 1976 Gottlieb Surf Champ, much like Spence. I don't have the nostalgia tie to it, but it's just a classic mid-70s EM that has a little bit of everything going on. It can play really fast to set up well and make you have to think really fast on your feet. number three Knight Rider this is where Steve and I's list are going to start getting yeah probably I have a Knight Rider solid state only because I acknowledged it was going to be harder to get an EM I would probably prefer an EM in a perfect world but got an opportunity to snag a solid state and I just love this pen with the two banks of drops a lot going on with the two option spinners and building your bonuses and stuff. Great theme. So good. It's so fun. So good. Yeah, I love that machine. It's the best. We should have made this whole episode about Knight Rider, really.
    103:34
    And the artwork. The art package on that is just phenomenal. It really is. Yeah, yeah. I highly recommend it. I love the random bonus at the top, the click-through bonus. You hit the spinner on this game, and then it just, like, it cycles through the bonuses on the top. It's like five options. There's five options plus the double bonus, so the double bonus doesn't come up every time. And, oh, when you hit that double bonus, you're like, yes, that's the jam right there. Such a good game.
    104:05
    Go on. Number two. It is Bally's Evil Knievel. I, too, don't ever plan on owning one because there's only like 150 of them made. Yeah, that's 150 made, too, not how many are left. So how many do you think are left? there are not that many left.
    104:23
    No. I would love to own this in a solid state. Once again, it's showing my appreciation for kind of early solid state. But if I could snag this in an EM, I would do that in a heartbeat.
    104:38
    And then, number one hasn't been mentioned tonight. I can't even imagine what your number one is if it hasn't been mentioned tonight. I have not imagined. It's my holy grail. Really? And I am proud and honored to share parenting responsibilities of it as Moff and I went in, and I purchased... And it's the only EM game on the planet that Moff will acknowledge that he actually likes. That's true.
    105:08
    In 1977, it's a Sonic, another Spanish pin, Mars Trek. You've got your stand-up targets, you've got your spinners, you've got a horseshoe. Kick-outs, it's got a little bit of everything. Phenomenal science fiction theme, great art package, great rule set, plays really fast when set up. I've always wanted one, and I'm really excited about landing one. I think it's a very huge oversight. That's not on my list. Like, I don't know how. I'm pretty sure I have that. Like, this list is like the third copy of the list I made, and I think it must have not gotten transferred at some point, because that should have been on my list. Good choice. So now that we've kind of gone through our top tens, and not a lot of surprises there other than Steve completely dropping the ball on Mark. I should have bumped Amigo, and it should have been number three or four, really.
    106:07
    So talk to me, Steve. What are some honorable mentions you haven't heard tonight? Oh, I have those written down, and I don't, so I'm trying to think off the top of my head. a lot of ones got mentioned that were my honorable mentions like Butterfly you had mentioned was one of my honorable mentions um you know what I'm just realizing no one mentioned like Eldorado or any of those I hate that layout I absolutely hate that layout I don't like it at all Cinegrade 37 or Abracadabra. Abracadabra, I love Abracadabra. I almost did too. They just didn't make it.
    106:53
    Atlantis is great, but I don't know why those just didn't make it. I think those are almost too overhyped at this point. I never played Atlantis. I don't think or maybe once or twice in a show. I like Atlantis.
    107:04
    What was the other one? I'm sorry. El Dorado. I just don't care for the layout. The other one after that. I'm sorry. There is, there is. I have a feeling if I could play the Gold Strike, the Adaball version, that I'd like it more than other versions because I love Adaball games and you don't get to see them very often on the West Coast. And I have a feeling that would really hit a sweet spot for me, but I've never seen one in person. So part of my rule is I couldn't put it on my list. Oh, you mentioned Abracadabra. I actually had that on my list, but I moved it off my list.
    107:41
    So that's an honorable mention. What else you got on your list that only made it? Well, Knight Rider. You know, because, like, look, there's, like, three or four of us on our little crew that have it now, and I can play a lot. And I like it. You know, I was more, as a kid, it was always the solid state version, so I always just associated that more with the solid state. And that's why I didn't put it on my top ten list.
    108:06
    And Far Out or Out of Sight was on there because I really loved playing that game. I remember playing that as a kid, too.
    108:16
    Yeah, I just like the artwork. It's different. For that era, the artwork is very different than most of what was going on, especially the Gottlieb. So it's really eye-catching. And, you know, two makes or drops, man, is always good for me.
    108:31
    I had Out of Sight far out on my almost there. I had Quick Drop almost made it to the list. Yeah. Jumping Jack. Jumping Jack almost made it to the list, or Jack in the Box for the two-player version.
    108:47
    Fireball, I wrote it down because I know you're supposed to acknowledge it, but it just doesn't do it for me anymore. It's fun, but it's just like, I don't know. I don't know what it is about it that I don't love it. And I like two-inch flipper games, and I like old games. Marble Queen was the one I was going to put on there, and that's a wood rail. And that almost made my list because I love playing that game. But, yeah, the ones I put on my list were just, like, a little bit better. You know, a lot of them have a gimmick. I'll acknowledge that most of my EMs have, like, some kind of gimmick about them, and they're not very pure.
    109:22
    Like, a lot of EM lovers love their EMs. But, yeah, still be it. It's my top ten list, and you can go kick rocks if you don't like it for all I care. I'll throw one more honorable mention out there, and I never played the game until I played Brad's, and that is Bally Star Trip.
    109:46
    It's a two-to-three ball, multi-ball game. It's the top of the play field. You have two saucers, and you lock the balls in, and then you hit the little mushroom bumpers to release the balls. And really neat layout, really neat artwork. It's just, you have to see it. it's just it's almost Jetsons-esque to spaceships but it really captures the era I don't know the year, early mid-60s it had manual ball feed, it doesn't have an automatic ball drop so but just a fun game the only other ones that I almost brought into my list and got pushed out, Mata Hari yeah that was like that's so easily accessible in Solid State that I was like, I don't love it enough that I'd want it to be... I'd want that rare EM, because that's just as rare. It's like you have to spend so much money to get that. I'd be like, no, that's the only reason EM is evil. And Knight Rider, it's just I love that game so much, and the EM is just a little added bonus.
    110:55
    And the last one I had was Big Hit, and that's partly because that's actually a pretty fun game. It's not a necessary traditional pinball game, but my daughter and I played that a lot at a show a couple years back. We both really enjoyed it, so I've always kind of had a fun spot for that in my heart. But, yeah, it's kind of interesting sitting back and looking through my list. I'm like, okay, if it came out in 76 or 77, I probably would have owned it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Great time for pinball, and Tommy had a lot to do with that. I mean, pinball was just, you know, at a height at that period. And as Solid State came in, it just exploded even more until about 79, 80, when video games really started to explode. Yeah. So, you know, looking back as a kid and, you know, being the arcade rat, you know, it was an amazing time. And I'm so grateful that I got to be, you know, alive and part of it. Agreed. well it's been a couple hours this is our longest show to date isn't it feels like it we'll see when I get done with it in the editing booth how it looks feels like it that was a ringing endorsement for having me on that was a long episode felt like it you know what's great about it like I said it's just like when we're all sitting around you know having food and just talking you know and it just flows and I think our listeners really enjoy it because they sit down with us and it's like they're there with us and just being part of the conversation. And that's the whole reason we do this show. You know?
    112:36
    You can sit down with your friends on the internet radio and just hang out and just talk them both. That's right, listeners. So, there you go. See, we love our listeners, all 22 of them.
    112:49
    No, our show's really growing. Love you, Mom. Yeah, love you, Mom. She bought all our copies of our album. so it's closing time shout outs and thank yous I'll let our special guest host practical start off oh sure thank you to you guys for having me on the show and just thanks to all my friends that I talk with on a regular basis the people that are closest to me in the hobby are the people that mean the most to me in the hobby I just made that up And I'm going to put it on a T-shirt. But, like, Jim, Willie, Cheddar, Eric, of course, Dylan, Adam, Jim for sure a million times. I don't ever get to see Jim enough.
    113:40
    You guys are – did I forget anyone? Dylan? Yes. I forgot everyone. Spy Byron. You know, all those people. Did I forget anyone else? Please tell me if I forgot anyone else. We'll tell you after the show. No worries. Oh, don't tell me after the show. But all the people, I mean, Tony, like I could go on and on and on.
    114:01
    You know, Pismo Arcade is an awesome guy. Like I could literally spend another 40 minutes talking about all the other awesome people I know. We got time. It's Saturday. No, I'm just going to stop it. I'm so, so done with you guys.
    114:15
    But I love you guys, and I love all my friends. So thank you all. Awesome. Seth, you want to go next? you want me to. Sure, I'll go next. Awesome. So, I first wanted to say a big thanks to our previous guest, Chris Bannister. He's babysitting my sorcerer. Both him and Eric have put a lot of love into that machine over the last year. I just wanted to say thanks to both of them for all the hard work they put into it. Here it is running beautifully at this point, so I'm excited to go down and play it. Thank you for babysitting and taking such good care of it. And another shout out to Mike with the CCPL. Thanks, buddy. Appreciate you letting me pick up your Vector. I'm loving it. I don't know if I'm going to be able to let it go now. Great, great pen. Appreciate you giving me the opportunity to take it for a test run, and I think it's going to be a keeper for me. That is a great game. I'd like to swoop back in here and say that I definitely forgot Mike originally, and I'm kind of okay with that, because, yeah, that's right, Michael Osher. Because he's at Disneyland right now instead of at League Finals tonight. That's true. Yeah, he's at Disneyland. That's the time of the recording. Yes, that's the time of the recording. Yes, this is not a magical time machine where Michael is always at Disneyland whenever you listen to it. Although that would be pretty awesome. That would be Seth. Seth would always be at Disneyland. That would be good. Michael rules too, and I'm sorry I forgot him the first time. Go on.
    115:54
    Spencer? I'm up. Yeah, I want to do, first of all, a shout out and a huge, gracious thank you to all the wonderful people at the Capital Quarter of Pinball League. Michael Hosier. and I know I'm missing somebody on the Folsom side I'm sorry but I need to give you a shout out and thank you his brother David hi David I think it was just at Disneyland and thank you guys for doing what you do and opening your homes and hosting pinball league nights and tournaments and to the Neff family and to the Bannister family for hosting and to Adam Pressler for hosting and all the wonderful hours of hard work and cooking food for people and opening up your homes to all of those crazy pinheads like you've been doing these past years. We just finished a season of League of Finals tonight. Had an absolutely wonderful time. I still look forward to it. So thank you from the bottom of my heart to these wonderful humans who help make pinball what it is. And there's so many other thank yous and shout-outs I want to give. It's just the room's kind of spinning plus it's two hours and I'm really tired. So I'll just leave it at that. That's been our show for tonight, Episode 10. Thank you for tuning in. You can listen to us on, let's see, iTunes, SoundCloud, and Acast.
    117:22
    You know, not live from the Kitchen Table Studios in Northern California. Thank you once again to our wonderful guest, Practical Steve. And that's been the show. Everybody stay safe out there. Keep supporting your local route operators and keep playing pinball. Play pinball. Keep America strong. Stay safe, everybody. Bye.