Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, March 10th. This is episode 83. I'm Tony, and I'm back. You're back. Welcome back. Thank you. We had a tremendous quantity of complaints. about the last episode. Everything I saw was joy. That was Don of Gaming on 10 Minutes a Week. He was the one person who liked the ultra-brief Dennis the Spare Through the News episode. I'm Dennis, by the way, and we have a guest. We do. In fact, we have Don's partner in crime when it comes to Gaming on 10. He's also the host of For Amusement Only, the EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast, and he is the author, co-author, I should say, of the upcoming Coin-Off Carnival, electrifying tales of mechanical contraptions. Welcome to the show, Nick Baldrige. Welcome. Hi, guys. Thanks very much for having me. Well, we're really glad to have you on because we're only going to be, I think, the third podcast to cover Coin-Op Carnival, but I appreciate it because I look through the latest pinball news and you're the only news that's worth talking about. So, I don't... I have to agree. I mean, I don't want to go, well, the humility you've just shown is incredible. And, I mean, is that or dive into the latest Stern upcoming theme rumors, which I'm not really keen on just going on about, oh, look, wouldn't Jaws be fun? Too bad they're not doing it. I mean, we could go there if we need to. But, so, Nick, this is our intro section, and normally I would go ahead, and I will, like I do normally, and kick it over to you to talk about what's going on, I guess I'll prime the pump a little bit and say I know that you've got the P3 platform from Multimorphic. And I'd love some thoughts on it because Tony and I, we actually get a lot of requests to cover P3 when we talk about pinball news, and so we try to, but neither of us own a machine. We don't know anyone who does. Well, now we know you do. So there's that. Hey, knowing is half the battle, right? So, yeah, I picked up a P3 at the end of the week before last, and I am loving it. I've been fascinated by this machine and its promise since it was first unveiled, and it's undergone several revisions since then. When I received it, I hadn't actually put hands on one that was on. I was really excited at last year's York show because there was going to be one that was there. Joe Newhart from Pinball Star had just signed up as a distributor and he was going to be bringing one but at York I am part of a group that brings a bunch of bingos and we we call it bingo row and I'm there teaching people how to play pretty much all weekend so when I would get there in the mornings it wasn't on and I had to go and do maintenance and whatever stuff to prep the row for the day, and I wasn't able to get back there and play a game, unfortunately. But I did put my hands on it while it was off, and I liked what I felt. So anyway, I just reviewed a bunch of stuff and talked with Jerry from Multimorphic a lot, and he answered all my questions in a way that made me feel good about it. And I said, let's pull the trigger. Let's do it. So, received it, and I've got to say, the engineering in this game is insane. It's a step above. It's really amazing. I'm a tech kind of guy, so that's the stuff I kind of gravitate towards first, is how is this thing put together, where are the failure points going to be, that kind of thing, so that I am kind of prepared for when things fall apart. Because, you know, it's pinball. Stuff's going to fall apart eventually. And I'm blown away. I mean, there's very little in there that is not modular, meaning you can actually take it and physically remove it from the machine to work on it. And there's not very much that's exposed in such a way that I think any damage is really going to occur. So I'm extremely impressed from a technical standpoint. The gameplay, as I mentioned, I hadn't even gotten to flip a game, so I wasn't sure what to expect exactly with Lexi Lightspeed, which is the one that I picked up, and I was blown away there, too. Now, Dennis, you and I have had a few conversations about the type of pinball player that I am, and I'm kind of a replay chaser. Yeah, we're going to be getting into that. I play for the thrill of winning a free game and there are no replays on Lexi so it's all about progressing through the modes but with the way that the P3 is constructed there's that lower two-thirds which are a screen that the ball is rolling over and virtual targets that appear on there and the ball is tracked the entire time it's on the screen so it can do pretty interesting things in that way. And it's really made me rethink the way that modes operate within Pinball because of that. For example, there's a mode where you are progressing through a warehouse and you're trying to pick up gears in order to repair your spaceship. And wandering through the warehouse requires you to hit certain lit scoops, which will pop up from the play field. And lining up those shots is pretty tricky, but also you're trying to collect things which are present on the screen, usually with a minimum of two shots. So it becomes quite tricky, and it's a timed mode, so you have to be careful not to overshoot and wind up in the pops at the top and wait for the ball to come back to you. So it's quite fun and very challenging. but one of the biggest things and one of the main reasons that I picked up the P3 was the ability to program your own games yeah I was going to ask so when are you starting on that Nick? very shortly so I just got in contact with Jerry and got a copy of the development kit and it's awesome I mean I really have nothing negative to say about this platform at this point. But the development kit is very similar to working on Homebrew Pinball. I've used PyProcGame, which is kind of the initial framework for Homebrew that came out for both of my Flipperless games, the MultiBingo and MultiRaces, which is currently under construction. And it's very, very similar to that. So activating coils, very similar. Activating lamps, very similar. The only difference is the screen control, which happens through Unity. And that's a very popular framework that's used in mobile games, console games, PC games. It's used everywhere. So it's very straightforward to integrate that with your traditional pinball-type programming. So, Nick, when are we going to get Quest for Glory pinball? That's what everyone wants to know. As soon as possible. Will that be the first project? That's going to be my first project, yes. My daughters are interested in programming games themselves, but I kind of want to get a feel for the cohesive system, you know, with the screen and everything first. So I'm going to start with Quest for Glory, and we'll go from there. Yeah, that was the... Well, besides that, I know you're a huge fan of the series. I like the idea of the development on the P3, as many ideas as I've ever had for doing a pinball game. It's the woodworking that keeps me away from even wanting to remotely try it. Not even the electrical. I don't want to carve, cut playfields. I don't have a CNC machine. I don't want to do any of that. Same here. But P3, you've got the play field. It's there. It's ready for you to module it up and code it up, and it's got its own track. Well, Tony and I have talked quite a bit about the engineering behind P3, which has always impressed us. The thing that we've struggled with, and I would assume that the company struggles with from a sales standpoint, is they need the killer app. Lexi Lightspeed, I think, is a lot of fun, but it's not a top ten game in the minds of pretty much anyone. So they need that killer app that makes people go, it's worth spending the $10,000. Did you get all of the modules when you bought it? No, I only had the Lexi module. That ball lock mechanism on that Cosmic Kart Racing is pretty cool. That is next on my list. Okay, I'm not trying to push you into, spend all your money there. It pleases me when it flows down. Do it. Do it. Execute order. Number. Cosmic cart. I know that wasn't a number, but what can I do? So, now this is really interesting because you have been, I don't want to use the word critical, so I'll use the word cruel instead. You've been very cruel towards code and pinball machines and how that is not the direction that you felt pinball needed to move in. But now that you've had time on the P3 platform, have you modified your position? Are you just embracing the hypocrisy? Let's explore those feelings with us. Well, that's the beauty is what I'm all about is shot geometry and having clear defined goals. And with the P3, and Let's See in particular, I feel that you do have clear, defined goals. The scoring is very well laid out, and the shot geometry is pretty awesome. There's a couple different ramps, there's a scoop, there's a feed to the pops through an orbit. There's a variety of things that are very clear, unlike other modern games, where it's going to depend on the color of a particular insert, whether or not you want to shoot it. If you happen to shoot it when it's the wrong color, does it hinder your progress in any way? Not usually. It's just most modern games are kind of a confusing cornucopia of sensory input that doesn't actually equate to progress in a game. Okay. Yeah, I see where you're going. So you think that it's too complex for the player to walk up and understand what they're supposed to be doing? Even a player, a seasoned player, you know, I've been playing since I was a kid. You have the EMs. Actually, I haven't played EMs until I was in my 20s. So, yeah. But, yeah, I mean. Some kind of people consider 20s not being a kid anymore. Yeah, good point. Well, it's the old school philosophy. So, yeah, I think that modern games are a little too confusing for the average player like myself. I would consider myself an average player. That's probably inaccurate, but we'll roll with that. Before I get out of this intro section, I want to, because I've listened to your EM and Bingo Pinball podcast for so long, and I listened to your Gaming on 10 with Don, I want to challenge you on a few things here, if you don't mind. That sounds awesome. It's not really. Again, I'm not using my right words today. Challenge isn't really what I need. I just need you to admit certain things. So let me throw these out here, and let's see if you can admit that these are true. I want you to admit that 3-inch flippers are superior to 2-inch flippers. Whoa, I can't do that. Okay, so that one we can't do. All right, I want you to admit that gobble holes are an unfun feature. Wow, no. Can't be done. Nick, you're batting 0-2 here. This is not going the way I imagined it in my dreams. I want you to admit that playing for score is what really matters to people, not playing for a bunch of replays. Well, that matters to some people. That's a capital point. Yeah, but not for me. All right. Now, here's one that's really going to challenge you. Well, maybe not. I want you to admit that Wayne Nyans was a better engineer than Don Hooker was. Ooh. I'm sorry. I can't do that. Well, yeah, I know. The Nick Howell is not – he's half a point out of four. That's about it. Well, thank you for the introduction, Nick. Tony, what's your intro? Tony, what are your opinions on Don Hooker and Wayne Nyans? I read an article about Wayne Nyans. Okay. That's my opinion. You've probably never even heard the name Don Hooker, have you? Nope. Nope, didn't think so. Nick is having heart palpitations right now. I'm the 50, I'm the filthy casual of this group. That's what I am. Well, I only know about Don because of Nick's show, because Don Hooker was on the bingo side, not the pinball side. Oh, that definitely explains it. I don't think I've even ever played a bingo. Not once. I think Nick's multi-bingo is going to be at Texas Pinball Festival. Am I correct, Nick? That is correct. Are you flying it out first class? Is it going to have free drinks? Yeah, it's going to sit on the seat beside me. I'm driving it out. Whoa. How long is that drive? 20-some hours. Length is measured in distance, Nick. It's a while. I don't know. I'm kidding. You obviously linked it to either. I mean, let's see. Let's see. You can't say that's 20 hours. You're probably looking at, what, about 1,000 miles? Something like that. But it's worth it to bring joy to the masses. Yeah. Exactly. That's the spirit. including you both, which I expect to see there front and center, you know, ready to play. Well, I don't know about front and center, but we'll definitely be there. Now, whether or not we stop by your booth, I don't know. We'll see how this show goes. I think it's more going to depend upon which day it is, because from the basis of what we've seen online Sunday, Dennis is going to have a pretty bad hangover because it seems like everybody's going to get Dennis drunk. That's ridiculous. I don't drink very much, though. Those are delusions of an alcoholically fueled hobby. Those members only know one way to bond. Put yourself next to some kind of potted plant and you'll be all good. We call that the Marty technique from Head to Head Pinball. He's a big fan of his potted plant at times on his stream. Tony, what's been going on? I know you've had a lot. I've had so much. And probably none of it related to gaming. Maybe a little bit. You know, I actually, here's the thing. It makes me sad that I'm literally just going to touch on it. I play a whole lot of video games. Mm-hmm. You know, two and, or three and four weeks ago, before the last episode, to talk about on the last episode. Yeah. And then between work and my wife's car breaking down and the horror story that was fixing that car and everything, since that time, I've played Gems of War. I like Gems of War. That's it. Well, no, I'm lying. That is not it. I did boot up to start playing some more Horizon Zero Dawn. And it's set on the screen after I booted it up because I got called away to go do something. so then I turned it off without ever actually doing anything in that game. So I played lots of games a few weeks ago, and now I haven't played anything except for Gems of War because I can play that on my phone. Yeah. So, yay, life. Yeah. Life finds a way. Life finds a way to screw everything up. But, no, it's just been a really busy. I found actually the closest I've come to gaming is I finally got a chance after our last pinball tournament to stop by here in your freezing cold game room because the window wasn't fixed yet. The window's fixed. That's my turn. And play some TNA. And I've been watching a lot of Twitch streamers lately because I can have them running up, you know, on the computer or on my laptop or something while I'm doing something around the house. So that's been where I've been getting all my vicarious gaming, basically. I've been watching a lot of Apex Legends. That's been the primary thing I've been watching, and I'm going to have to try that game. And then I watched yesterday, while I was doing some stuff around the house, I watched a whole bunch of a couple streamers. I watched playing an alpha of a game that's basically the 3D first-person version of Factorio. and I want that game like bad well it'll come out eventually eventually the only other thing I've done is I took my oldest daughter and my wife to go see Captain Marvel no surprise she loved it she who? both but the daughter but her answer was it wasn't better than Black Panther which is still to her consideration the best Marvel movie I saw it yesterday and I would concur Black Panther is a better overall film. But it is a good, Captain Marvel is good. Yeah. But Marvel's got their, they've got their vanilla, they're the vanilla ice cream. They've got their formula. Yeah. It's always going to taste okay. Yeah, it's good. Even the bad ones aren't, like, terrible. Except maybe Hulk. But that was before they really perfected the recipe. Right, right. I mean, even, you know, Thor wasn't, I mean, I can, I can. Thor 2. Yeah. Might be my next lowest after Hulk. I mean, I thought it was a lot of other movies. movie. We were twisted and turned into orcs. Oh, wait, no, that's the wrong movie. You do. Okay, well, my intro isn't very much. I have a link in the show notes to Pinball Profile episode 182. I was on that episode. That's why there's a link. I listened to it. Really? Yes. It's probably pretty redundant. There's a lot of that stuff we hit on this week in Pinball Podcast from before. But Jeff recorded it. He pre-records and then when he gets around to editing, I thought he wanted to do an additional record session too so I was surprised it came out but whatever works for him as I noted as I interrupted you during window is in I got it in the middle of the week so I stained it on Wednesday and Thursday put the lacquer on it on Friday got it installed stained it with the blood of the thieves stained it with the blood of the leftover stain from 2009 that my contractors used when they put in all these windows that I have. I liked my idea better. It was very dark. I see you all Rambo'd up, hunting down the thieves. Knife in your teeth. I saw on the Facebook, someone took a $20 bill with a pencil and they shaded it and made him look like Rambo. Andrew Jackson. It's like, Andrew Jackson is Rambo, but with an extra helping of racism. It's exciting. And then, Total Nuclear Annihilation, you mentioned. I got a shaker motor for it. People were like, you need to get the shaker motor. It's really well integrated. And so I was talking to my dad and I was like, here's some pictures of the kit. I don't want to pay $100. Do you think we could build a shaker motor for this thing? Because we did for the virtual pinball cabinet. It was a real easy thing to do. But it required a control board and he's like, I don't have good pictures of the control board. You should just spend the $100. Quit being cheap. So I did. It was different than putting in the shaker motor with Star Trek. Because with Star Trek it was, here's your shaker motor. screw it into where the T-nuts are, and plug the wire in. But with a spooky game, apparently, it's here are the holes where the T-nuts go. Put in the T-nuts, screw the shaker motor in. Now pick a spot to attach the control board. There's no pre-spotted holes for that. Then here's a wire. Run it through your nest of wire cables into the backbox, and we'll go ahead and give you a board back there already. so it was actually pretty easy but I was just sort of surprised at the number of steps you were expecting just a plug and play thing well I knew I was going to have the control board so but I thought maybe there would be at least an identified spot to mount it because it just the instructions are put it on the right side of the cabinet it's like okay well in the photo it looks like there's a ton of space but in reality the controls for the subwoofer are there so it's like yeah I mean it's a small board whatever I still think we could have done it for less than a hundred bucks but I don't get my way. So, Nick had to suffer through all of that. So now we're going to go to some fun stuff. We're going to go into pinball, Nick, and we're going to go into news. And there's only one piece of news I really want to spend any time with, and that is Coin-Op Carnival, Electrifying Tales of Mechanical Contraptions. And I've got a link in the show notes for people so they can go to the website because I see you have a website dedicated to this. But I'm going to really struggle here, Nick, because you've been on this flipping podcast. and you talked about this with your co-author, Ryan, who I should say wanted to be on here, but I was completely inconvenient with all of my time proposals. I knew I was being inconvenient, and unfortunately he just could not make this work, and he sacrificed Nick to us. And it will be a sacrifice, because the only thing I can think of, Nick, is because after the questions you had from Taylor and the questions you had from Don on Gaming on 10, all I can do is ask hard questions. I don't know how else to distinguish myself. So I need you to prepare yourself for the really hard questions. So we're going to start with the hardest one of all. Why in the world did you even decide to do this? Well, the first feature in Coin-Off Carnival is an intro comic with Ryan and I discussing why we decided to do this. But essentially, Ryan and I both have a love and fascination of electromechanical games. When I first started playing electromechanical games, I was itching to know what made them work. And I started getting into the repair side, started fixing games, jumped in both feet first with one of the most complex games that's probably ever been invented electromechanically, and really haven't looked back. El Toro? Yes, El Toro. Bally El Toro. No, it was Bally's Double Up, which is a bingo pinball. Bingo, yeah. Okay, those are supposedly fairly complex, Nick. Did you know that? I wasn't aware of that, actually. And Double Up is the next to most complex electromechanical game that's ever been invented, as far as I've ever been able to find. There is a sister game to it called Hawaii, which has one extra stepper. But otherwise, this game is extremely complex, extremely. So I really have always loved the games. I find them clever and fascinating and very interesting. Each one has its own different rule set, and this goes for any electromechanical now. But Ryan has always felt the same way, and we went on vacation together. We go on family vacation together, both of our families. Oh, you're related. Once a year. No, no, no. We are one big happy family. Okay. Well, that's the important thing. And we were sitting around the kitchen table while I was working on the multi-bingo programming one evening, and Ryan and I were talking about how new it would be if we were to make our own publication and what would set it apart. now obvious influences are the drop target scene both of us really love that creation by John Chad and Alec Longstreth and it is kind of a tribute to some of the zines that I used to really peruse on a weekly or monthly basis back when I was a youth and it has to do with pinball and it's heavily illustrated. So we thought, you know, we could do something similar but differentiate ourselves in a number of interesting ways. The first being that Coin-Off Carnival is dedicated to historical accuracy wherever possible. So we have really gone through and refined and made sure that our facts were straight in each of the features to ensure that we're not misreporting something in print where it's harder to retract. And couple that with Ryan's illustrations. Unlike the drop target scene, which mixes in photos along with illustrations and comics, Coin-Off Carnival is completely 100% illustrated. There's not a photograph in the magazine. it is full color which is unusual for Ryan Claytor work as well he does work in color but most of his comics work has been black and white or he got a fancier word for it than that Duotone Gray scale Monochrome. It's something, anyway. I'm glad he was here to defend himself and his word choice. Exactly. But he'll have to make do with my fumbling through it. But anyway, Koinon Carnival is full color, and it's beautiful. I'm holding it in my hands right now, and it's quite lovely. So this historical accuracy extends through the various images that we have. For example, one of our main features is an interview with Wayne Neyens, which I'd like to return to your earlier question at some point, by the way. I had so many, you'll have to remind me which one. Oh, him versus Don Hooker? Exactly, yeah. Okay, we will revisit it. Continue. Pencil dead. So, yeah, but there's a story that Wayne tells within that about the free play credit unit that Wayne developed, and it's a very interesting story. And the unit that was illustrated within is period correct, So it may not be exactly what Wayne designed, but it would be very similar to one that was developed at that time using the materials that they had on hand. Now, the identification of that unit or the way that it appears is quite different from later units. So it's, again, just a matter of historical accuracy where possible. Okay. Well, let's delve a little bit more about the, do I call it a book, or what's the term you're using? Graphic novel. It depends on the day. So, we tend to refer to it as a publication, because we're not, it's 64 pages, so it's bigger than a traditional magazine, but it's shorter than a traditional book. So, it's somewhere in the middle. So, we say publication. Publication. That's deliciously vague. Thank you. Okay, so you mentioned, and what are the dimensions of the pages, do you know? Each page is five and a half inches by eight and a half inches. Okay, and what's the price? It is $15. Okay, excellent. So, we've hit on the basics here, and you mentioned that this is a publication. Is this planned to be a series of publications? It is. This is the first of a planned four. Oh, okay. And are those each coming out in the next four months? Are these the four months of coin op, to borrow a turn of phrase from an up-and-coming possible pinball manufacturer? Unfortunately, no. So, issue number one took us over two years to develop. and it ballooned in size from 24 pages all the way up to 64, which it landed at today. And during that time, we were thinking that we'd be able to bank two or three issues before we unveiled it, but the development of this first issue took such a long time that we really wanted to get it out into the public consciousness, get some feedback on it, those kind of things. So what we're doing instead is taking the slow burn approach and releasing one every two-ish years. And, you know, unfortunately, we won't be able to just drop all four at once and say, here you go. but we think we're giving the publication the time that it needs to develop and be exactly what it needs to be, giving ourselves the creative freedom to do what's necessary to make it as accurate and lovely and wonderful as it possibly can be. Okay, well, I hope you both keep yourselves nice and healthy because Isaac Asimov promised me the Foundation series and then he died and I didn't get to finish it. It's not that I'm bitter, but I'm annoyed. Well, maybe if you'd have been smart enough to pull a Robert Jordan instead of a Ghostwriter for the last three books. Oh, you know, I think kind of like Tolkien, I think his kids started working on something. You know, it's just like the kids never live up to the hype, it seems. It's like, let's skip a generation. It's like maybe they should have gone off and been painters instead of authors. I don't know this version there. So you wanted to go back, Nick, and talk a bit about Don Hooker and Wayne Nyans. And as you noted, Wayne Nyans is featured prominently in this first publication of Coin Off Carnival. So what did you want to say? What did you want to retract? I don't wish to retract anything. I do stand by my statement. However, I will say that Wayne also appreciated Don Hooker for his engineering prowess. In fact, belly bingos were shipped to Gottlieb in their engineering department where they could be examined. and the circuitry appreciated, let's just say. And I was aware of that. However, if I recall, Wayne has claimed he did not look at those games. He has claimed he did not play them. However, he did look at them. No fun allowed. Not at Gottlieb. Sad. So, yeah. But Don Hooker, in my mind, is one of the greatest amusement device engineers that ever lived. The stuff that he designed is incredible and quite fascinating. But Wayne developed some of the most fun games that have ever been made, so it's a toss-up there. But as far as engineering prowess goes, I'd give the edge to Hooker. Okay. Well, in terms of this publication on Coin-Op Carnival, I believe I read that you're going to feature one pinball electromechanical game and one non-pinball but other EM arcade-type game. Is that accurate? That's correct. So every issue will have those features. We'll have an interview with an EM designer, and we actually have all four of the planned series banked, all the interviews ready. Oh, good. I don't know how much longer they're on. I'm not worried about that. Well, I mean, I imagine Wayne's the oldest that you've interviewed. But there are some that were at the turn of that era who were young at the time. So they're not particularly, quote-unquote, old at this point. But probably at retirement age. Okay, well, are you saying which pinball game of Wayne's you put into this publication? Yes, it's Mystic Marvel. which is a fascinating game that was developed in the 50s. It is a double award game. Have either of you ever played one of those? I can't think that I have. Actually, though, I was a bit surprised that you didn't go with Queen of Hearts. Queen of Hearts is Wayne's favorite game. Yes, and where's the respect? He loves that game for the design of the circuitry. And that's why I thought you would love it, Nick. I do love it. I do love it. However, Mystic Marvel fits more within my particular wheelhouse, which is to say, as a double award game, you're able to bet an extra nickel that you can complete the sequences and earn multiple replays. That sounds like gambling, Nick. It sure does. Boy, it skirts the edge, doesn't it? But yeah, that's where my interest lies, not in gambling, because believe it or not, despite my love of bingos, I'm not a gambler. I don't enjoy the gambling aspect, but I do enjoy the gameplay aspect and being able to compete against the machine. Let me qualify that. So you're pretty big into single-player EM experiences then. Correct. Because they would give you a bigger challenge than multiplayers due to the complexity that would be required to execute a multiplayer with safe state, which I know a little bit of that happened to a degree, but not to what you could achieve with a single player experience. Correct. So let me ask you another hard question here. Here we are. Here you are sitting there lovingly stroking the cover of your Quinox Carnival, waiting to bring it to Texas. why should someone who's not already into electromechanical games buy this? What? They'll look and they'll be like, well, I don't know anything about EMs. I only like my D&D games, Nick, so why should I buy it from you? That's the beauty, and that's precisely one of the target audiences we made this for. Really, we made it for the layperson, with some nods to hardcore pinheads in there, but the layperson or the person who's not familiar with electromechanical games at all is going to get the most out of it. One of the recurring segments in here is a segment on EM Tech, where I write an article that describes a feature within the game or a unit within the game and how it works with the greater whole in order to make the game function. For this first issue, I talk about relays. and you might think that that is a very simple and dry subject, but I tried to make it as interesting and appealing as possible while describing how a relay can function as part of the greater whole and how a relay can malfunction and how you might notice that such a thing is happening and how to fix it. I talk about the various types of relays And, yeah, it's a publication that's geared towards somebody just walking off the street and saying, oh, yeah, pinball. Okay. And to be honest, any form of electromechanical relay is more interesting than relay racing, which is one of the most boring sports I've ever witnessed. Now, what if you have electromechanical relays that are racing each other? That would probably be awesome. Just like video game relays, like Mario relays, where they'll play Super Mario Brothers, and the next person comes up and plays Super Mario Brothers 2. That's interesting. The game's done quick. But running left and passing a baton, not so... Oh, it's just like watching race cars. It's just not interesting. Right. Not here to watch people turn left. Not in anyone's wheelhouse, pun intended. Tony, so you have questions for Nick about this clean-up carnival? these tails these mechanical tails most of the questions I have have been covered I am interested that we get to see it so soon with it being at TPF yeah so how many copies are available for purchase our first run is 1100 copies not all 1100 will be with us at TPF but we're going to do our best that would be heavy yeah I would hope so. Yeah, yeah. With your drive. So you have a booth is what you're doing. You're going to have a booth. Yes. Is Ryan going to be with you at TPF? Yes. Because you have like a whole tour schedule planned. We do, yes. So after TPF, TPF is the first stop in a 16-stop, 10-state tour for the book. We will be signing and giving seminars on the creation of the book. And Ryan and I will be doing planetarium presentations. There's one that Ryan's doing by himself and one that he's doing solo. And in those planetarium presentations, it's more of a look at Wayne's living space, so the place where he kept his beloved Spirit of 76, which has an awesome story, and his office where he keeps a lot of his pinball memorabilia. So it's a fascinating look at the oldest living pinball designer and where he lives and how he keeps track of all the pinball things that he's been through in his life. This is an aside, but Nick, who is your favorite pinball designer, flipper pinball designer? We'll stay out of the flipper with a slam. That's a tough one. I have admiration for just about every EM designer out there for different reasons. Ted Zale for trying different things, you know, Multiball featured prominently in some of his designs, as well as Zipper Flippers. Wildly asymmetrical layouts. Wildly asymmetrical layouts, yes. Krinsky for some of the same reasons. His asymmetrical layouts and reliance on drop targets to advance towards a goal are pretty spectacular. Nions, I really love symmetrical layout as well. But the thing that I love most about Nions and Mavs are their reliance on multiple ways to win. I find that extremely compelling, having multiple sequences. Those are things that I appreciate quite a bit. So if we're talking modern designers, you know, that's a different story. Yeah, you basically said you hate all of them. So we can continue to focus on EMs instead. Okay. You didn't mention Steve Kordek. Steve Kordek, I do appreciate. I feel that some of his designs, especially the ones that I tend to work on the most, are a little more workmanlike, meaning they're very straightforward, and there's not a whole lot to shoot. I do appreciate his designs, and I certainly appreciate the ability to kind of rope in everybody with them. Take a game like Grand Prix, for example. Extremely popular these days. Some would say the most popular EM, broadly speaking, with today's audience of tournament players. Correct, yeah. And so I wind up on a lot of repair calls for Grand Prix. Grand Prix is not a well-designed game, electrically. I would say that and most of that has to do with how Williams packed their units in towards the end of the EM era they just kind of stacked stuff on top of other stuff and didn't really give a thought to how people were going to be working on it and it really shows because there are common pain points in that game that destroy themselves and it's generally the first thing that I check when somebody tells me they're having trouble. But as far as the design goes, you have a near-symmetrical layout, and if you think about the shot patterns, there's not a whole lot there. You've got some incidental shots, I would say, in drop targets. There's very few people I know who actually play to shoot the drop targets. It's mostly accidental rebounds off of pops. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and then you have two Orbit. The game is simple. I would never pay more than $500 for a working Grand Prix. I just don't think there's enough to do on it. People love how those spinners sound. Well, it is impressive, you know, getting a good solid spin on those. But there's plenty of games. And, you know, Kordek also was not shy about recycling layouts either. And Scott Lee wasn't, you know, either. Some would say he wasn't shy about borrowing ideas from other manufacturers, too. Well, you know, you never know. But, yeah, I mean, if you look at Liberty Bell versus Grand Prix, Liberty Bell is Williams' take on the Bicentennial, and it's Grand Prix with one minor design change. So it's, you know, not... It's not wholly unique. yeah yeah and Grand Prix while fun and it certainly is a fun multiplayer game is not a single player experience that really holds my interest so it is a multiplayer game so that makes sense yeah but there are multiplayer games which are quite fun you know even as a single player experience it's just the Grand Prix does not stick out as one of those for me well in the spirit of the coin-op carnival, let me hit you with a few EM-related questions. I'll be as rapid as possible. I'm diving deep into your conscious, not your subconscious. That's a Zach Minney thing, and we're not doing that crap on this show. But okay, so Nick, you're pretty knowledgeable on tech, both on solid state and electromechanical. And this is a little less tech, but it's, in my mind, a maintenance area question, so I'm going to pose it to you. What's the best way for me to clear coat an EM. What's the best way, Nick? Using the way that the factory specified. Nick, don't, but I want my game better than new. Better than new. New, Nick, is that really a thing? That's something that I question. I have heard people in the hobby, I don't know how knowledgeable they are, Nick, but they say better than new when they add the word clear coat before it. Well, as you know, I'm not an advocate of two-part auto-clear. You're not? I'm not. I know. It's shocking, right? Sorry. I think I just blew out the mic here. Sorry. I'm a bit of a purist. And by a bit, I mean I'm really a purist. Okay. So my next question was going to be, what are the best LEDs to put in my EM? The ones which are... What are the purest ones, Nick? the ones which you have illuminating the coin meter where you can see the back glass. But I don't want my back glass to flake, Nick. It's highly unlikely that your back glass is going to flake in a home environment any worse than it already is. So seal the back glass if you're concerned. Triple-thick? Yep. And if you're in a climate that fluctuates wildly, I would say don't triple-thick it. Yeah, I've heard that if it gets cold and warm, it can contract and then basically rip the art right off of that glass. Yeah, I mean, the whole thing, the ink that's screened onto the glass is going to expand and contract at a different rate from the glass, and that's why you get flaking and sheets that peel off. When you're adding another product on top of that, say a clear coat like Triple Thick, then that's going to expand and contract at yet a third rate. So it's just something to be cognizant of if you're going to be storing something in an unheated area, because it can go south. Okay. I'll ask a few opinion questions of you then. I'm going to keep it in the EM realm, don't worry, in the spirit of our Crane-Op Carnival discussion. What would you say is the best bingo ever made for a fun factor? Ooh. Hmm. That's challenging. Pick the appropriate United game, Nick. From a player's perspective, I would say that the most rewarding game is United Caravan. And that is because of the multiple carryover features and ability to reposition the numbers physically on the bingo card. from a more cerebral perspective I would say a game like Bally's Bounty is one of the best ever made Bounty provides traditional magic screen gameplay where the bingo card actually shifts to these different tetromino style sections and you have to get 3, 4, or 5 in the entire section They don't have to touch at the same time. On top of that, it's got a skill shot feature where your first ball has to land in a particular hole, and then you get a set of replays which are defined separately from your scores for 3, 4, and 5 in the regular game. Those are some of my favorites and some of the ones that I think are the most complex and the most fun. There are plenty of others, though, and that's the beauty of the multi-bingo. is being able to try them all. Many of the 20-hole games where Don Hooker experimented with solid state in the 1960s are pretty fascinating, but they are kind of an entirely different animal. I didn't know he experimented with solid state that early. Absolutely, and his experiments were actually very complex. If you look at some of the early amusement pinball designs with solid state, they were doing things like adding a sound card. Big whoop, right? Because you've got essentially three tones that you need to produce on the sound board, and you just take an input voltage and then you shove something out to a speaker. Not a huge deal. These cards, and these were add-in cards that Don Hooker developed, were able to keep track of game states, so they had rudimentary memory, as well as transistors for switching various elements within the game. Pretty fascinating stuff for the early 1960s. Interesting, interesting. So I know you also have your Mopi horse race game you've been working on. What's the best horse race that was ever made? So, again, that's a multi-layered question, Dennis. It sounded like I asked a single-layer question. I mean, that's how it sounds. Tony, what did you think? It sounded pretty single layer. Yeah, Nick, it was single layer. It was? I thought I saw a ramp on there. Well, it's returning right back to your flippers. Shoot what I want you to shoot. There's no flippers on a horse race game. I don't know what to do. Take your one ball and pick one. So, yeah, the horse race games, as Dennis said there, are one ball. So you get one shot to make your number. And they're very, very challenging in that regard. And each of them has its own different rule set, very similar to the bingo pinballs. But the engineering is quite different until Don Hooker joined them, and then he worked some of his magic and things became quite different. Some of the later one balls are quite fascinating from a rules perspective. United also produced one balls under their universal moniker. They had a gambling pinball subsidiary, which then got folded in after the passage of the Johnson Act, which outlawed the one balls. But from the Bally side, I'd say Bally's Turf King or Sunshine Park are probably contenders for the best. Turf King has, again, multiple carryover features. It has a feature where if you light a particular feature on the back glass and land in a particular hole, you win up to 320 replays on one ball, which is pretty awesome. Sunshine Park is exceptional because it allows for extra ball play. So one ball where you can actually purchase a second, third, fourth, or fifth ball is pretty powerful. Okay. Okay. Well, I know you don't have a multi for this, but I was curious, what would you say, electromechanically, is the best flipperless novelty pinball game? Hmm. Well, most of the flipperless games could be set between novelty and replay mode. So do you mean purely from a scoring standpoint in pure novelty mode? Well, I probably mean replay mode in your case, since you favor playing for replay. okay well that's a challenge for me to answer because I thought I made it easy by saying that whole replay stuff even though I don't believe in it you don't believe in replays? they're real Dennis they're real no as soon as the real knockers went away they're just boop that was my impression of a stern boop it wasn't good it was a terrible impression it sounded more like the start of music of Total Nuclear Annihilation The missing beep. But, yeah, so many flipperless games I haven't gotten a chance to try. So most of the ones that I've played are ones that I've repaired myself. However, Ryan Claytor has one that I got a chance to play called Metro, and it's made by Ginko. Metro has an extremely nuanced and complicated rule set, and it's one of those games that can really turn your opinion around about how much agency you have within a flipperless game. Many people walking up to a flipperless game or a bingo will see that there are no flippers, stand back, plunge the balls with their arms folded, and then be unimpressed that they haven't won. Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? No, no. You're just supposed to use your brain to force the ball to go where it's supposed to. Now, if you use the force, that's good. But really, the big deal is grabbing the sides of the cabinet and actually shoving it where you want it to go without tilting. It's a skill that takes a little while to develop. It not something that you will immediately grok on your first plunge but it something which is intensely satisfying because you feel that you are actually controlling this machine in a way that flippers do not provide Is Metro, was that game the inspiration for Metro 2033, the video game? I think so, yeah. Because, I mean, it's a game of agency. No flippers are in Metro 2033. Oh, obviously. And there are multiple ways to win. yeah there you go interesting in your opinion what's the best zipper flipper game I know you agree with me that's not fireball that that game is grossly overrated though fun yeah now I haven't again I'll qualify this I haven't played every zipper flipper game either but I have played quite a few and I would say most of them have interesting gimmicks and layouts which require you to shoot similar things. Mushroom targets were a favorite of Ted Zale, so you tend to find those on a lot of zipper flipper games. Between Fireball and 4 Million BC, I would give 4 Million BC the edge, and I would say that that is probably my favorite, mostly for the very cool skill shot feature. Yes, that's my favorite of the ones I've played is 4 Million BC, for the same reason. and I really like that skill shot. It is fun. I kind of like the waterfall ball lock on the right, too. Mm-hmm. The volcano? Well. Or is that the left? No, no, I think you're right. I think you're correct. I think it's the volcano. I don't remember the terms. I just call it, like, the ball lock thing, and the ball kind of trickles out like a waterfall. I shouldn't say waterfall, because that just makes me think of Centigrade 37, one of the worst EMs ever made. You don't like the bagatelle feature on the right side? I don't like bagatelle features, period, Nick. Really? Nope. Never met a good one. Have you played a bagatelle? I played Centigrade 37, Nick. And I couldn't even stand that. Are you thinking I might like full-fledged bagatelles? I have not, so I don't know. I can't comment on that. You might. But I'll drip it with disdain like I kind of know already. Okay. Well, I see. I'm just kind of imagining riding a 10-speed bicycle and hating shifting gears, and then you come along and say, well, but have you tried a 20 speed? That's kind of where I felt this was starting to go, so I'm kind of, unlike in a bag of tell, I'm controlling where the ball goes and moving us in another direction. Actually, speaking of Ted Zale, Tony is a big fan of Ted Zale's Campus Queen, which I know there is an iteration that was a zipper flipper. Yes, Gator. But they used that layout two other times for non-zipper flippers, and it is arguably a much better playing game without the zipper flippers. Yeah, pretty much. I don't know if you've played any of that or Sheba. Was it Sheba? It's Campus Queen, Sheba, and Gator. I've played Campus Queen and Gator, and I prefer Campus Queen to Gator. I've played Sheba, and I thought it was extremely enjoyable. Does Campus Queen have the same rule set with certain mushroom targets that you advance will award different gates? I think the only difference between Shiva and Campus Queen is one's a two-player and one's a four. Yeah. Uh-huh, okay. So, yes, the rules, I believe, are identical. I've never actually gotten a chance to, I've never seen a Shiva available to play. But I'm pretty sure from what I've seen, looked up, that's what it is. From what I've read, the rules are the same. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, most games that have the same layout and were produced in single, two, and four-player they have pretty much the same rules. Well, getting... Sorry for the aside on all sorts of games that are not available to be read about in Coin-Op Carnival, but Coin-Op Carnival Electrifying Tales of Mechanical Contraptions will be on sale as of the Texas Pinball Festival. As I noted earlier, we do have a link in the show notes so you can go to the website and pick up your own copy if you're not going to be at Texas. And Nick and Ryan are generous enough to allow us to give a copy away to a listener. Yay! So, Nick, how do you want us to do the giveaway? Because it's your gift. Well, I'm not sure how you might choose to run it, but perhaps if somebody were to email you with the name of their favorite EM. Okay. All right. That sounds excellent. So, you heard it here, folks. If you want to email us, Email us at eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com. You can just put in the subject, my favorite EM, and then in the body, actually list what your favorite EM is. If you list something that is not an EM, I am disqualifying your submission because you didn't follow the instructions. It's not a hard ask. There are only hundreds of them to choose from. I won't know if it's not your real favorite. and just remember that I'm sure Dennis will be good and he won't throw it out if you put centigrade 37 in no you can put centigrade in I've been in this hobby for years now and the one thing I have learned is that there is no shortage of bad taste you can pick whatever you want and then we'll probably go to random.org and we'll randomly pick one and then we'll pass we'll contact the winner we'll announce it here and then we'll get the address information to you, Nick and Ryan, and then you guys can handle sending the copy out so you don't have to pass it through us first. Sounds good. So that's what we'll do. And hey, let's run another giveaway. Let's run an NVRAM giveaway while we're at it. So my dad is a retired electrical engineer, and he likes to work on pinball projects too. And his project, since I got him one of those hot air rework kits for soldering stuff, was, oh, look, it's so much easier to work on chips now. So he's now building NVRAM chips in his spare time. Because he looked at them online. He's like, I don't know why. Yeah, I'm retired, and I also don't know why they're charging this much money for these cheap parts. So he has started to put together his own little NVRAM kits. And so he's like, but what's he going to do with them? I already have NVRAM in pretty much all of my games I could support it. So he's like, well, why don't you give them away on your show? I was like, okay, so let's give away one. and the way we'll do it is you email us again at eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com and say my favorite solid state game and then list the solid state game in the body if you list an EM game I'm disqualifying you notice how dangerous this is everyone could end up being disqualified Nick that's what I like about this game it's possible for everyone to lose living dangerously that's right and then you don't have to list the game you put the chip in And we'll do the random.org thing, and then we'll select a winner on the next show. And so you know, what I have at my disposal is you can either have a 6116 chip, a 6264 chip, or a 65256 chip. I don't have any 5150s. He has not gotten around to making those yet. So I have my little cheat sheet because I don't know what any of those codes mean. The 6264s are used in a lot of the White Star and early Data East games. The 6116 are the Bally 6803s, and a lot of the Williams Systems 11s and all the System 9s are covered with that. And the 65256 is... That's the one... The only game that requires that is Sharky's Shootout. It's that weird huge ram. Yeah. So I already have one of those. But it also works in a lot of the Williams WPC games. There's a jumper, and you can choose between the 6264 or the 62256. I don't care which one it is. I will on my contest, the solid state contest. This is limited to U.S. only because I ain't paying $30 to ship it to Australia. Sorry, Ryan. So, okay, well, that's the news. That's pinball news. Thank you so much for coming on and telling us about the book, Nick. Excuse me, the publication, Nick. Can I call you Nick? I've only done it 32 times so far. No, actually, that's not my name. I know, but that's why I do institute the position of power that I'm trying to wield by being the host. This isn't like all the weird TV shows where everybody calls everyone by their last name and nobody... I've never known anyone in real life who behaves like that. I never have either. I've always wondered about it. It's just like... And I think, like, maybe I'm wrong and I'm the crazy one, but then what's the deal with movies when the other person hangs up on the phone and then a busy signal plays? I've never had that happen either. Yeah. So am I in the matrix or is everyone else? Hollywood is the matrix. Everything is the matrix. If you work with computers, it becomes even more disgusting. So you, the EM guy, work with computers as your day job? Yes. Yes. In a way, that makes a lot of sense, actually. hacking scenes in movies disturbing greatly I love that movie Hackers I never knew hacking was so visual everybody's favorite password God you know my favorite part is when you see it when they decide for some reason they have to hack faster so two people use the same keyboard that's how it works I didn't really like Hackers because it actually featured prominently the cookie monster virus A virus that I believe was on the Apple IIe, but was now a serious threat to PCs around the world. And airframes. I mean, it's everywhere, really. Oh, thanks for ruining my joy, Nick. May I add a couple things about the publication? You may add whatever you want. All right. Well, first of all, thanks for listening to the spiel here, but we'll be at Texas Pinball Festival March 22nd through 24th, 2019. in our booth we will have both going out carnival the publication will have lapel pins and t-shirts so should you need to clothe yourself completely head to toe in going out carnival merch it will be there for you aside from that as Dennis and Tony were mentioning earlier the multi bingo will be there and everybody is welcome to give it a shot and learn the rules of some of these complex games but we are having a seminar on Friday evening at 8 p.m. So that's March 22nd. And Gordon Haskey, noted pinball historian, will be there to contextualize Coin-Up Carnival in the pantheon of pinball publications which have come before. And we will be talking about the creation of Coin-Up Carnival and some diving more in-depth with how we came to this conclusion that we needed to make a print publication in 2019 and things of that nature. And as I mentioned, that's the kickoff for the tour. However, at coinopcarnival.com, you'll be able to purchase any of the merch that I mentioned before. And we do offer international shipping. so Australians are welcome to participate in the Coin-Off Carnival giveaway. Yeah, it's okay there. It's okay there, right. Yeah, not on my Solid State one, though. Right, right, yeah. I mean, that's been made clear. That's been made clear. And thank you, by the way, for clarifying the RAM chips that it worked with because that was going to be my question is which actual chips does it use? But, yeah, so getting back to Coin-Off Carnival, We have also procured distribution through Pinball Life and Pinball Resource. So if you don't trust us for whatever reason, you can always go to your favorite pinball supplier and get it there. The cover price is the same, $15. But, you know, you can bundle in your shipping with your parts order. So that might be more appealing for some. They will not carry lapel pins and T-shirts, at least at this juncture, but they will be carrying the books. and a Canadian collector named Caitlin Pascal has purchased many copies for distribution up in Canada at the Hawkesbury Pinball Flea Fair and the Ottawa Pinball Game Room show and we are in talks with others for distribution as well hopefully internationally but we'll find out because Canada isn't international not international enough America's half Now, Gordon, he had a fairly lengthy article on Wayne in the latest Pinball Magazine, if I recall. Yes, and Gordon was also at Wayne's 100th birthday party, which both Ryan and I attended as well. So it'll be a mini reunion. Aw. Should be good. Awesome. Before we move on to more fun stuff, I have a very serious question. When do you sleep? I mean, between everything and from listening on your two other podcasts and the games you play and the work you do and the side projects you do and family and everything else, do you actually sleep, or are you one of those magic people who just meditates for like 20 minutes a day and then they're good for another 24 hours? I wish I could say that I was one of those people because I feel like I would get even more done. but I do work on a lot of projects and really my mantra is if I can work on something for 15 to 30 minutes a day I feel like I've accomplished something so I try with all of my projects to slot them into that 15 minute a day workspace and that's where Gaming on 10 originated it was Gaming on 10 minutes a week because neither Don nor I really have a lot of time to play video games but I've been... But you have plenty of time to talk about them yes more than 10 minutes a week to talk about so yep I do in fact sleep though I was wondering because I mean I always feel like I'm super busy all the time and people know from my intros I've always got stuff going on and then I hear you talk about it and I'm like well apparently I'm slacking yeah no when I listen and I'm listening to both of Nick's shows I always just come away thinking why am I listening to these I just end up feeling like a loser oh thanks guys we're just saying you're an inspiration to us all Nick the moral is we could all do better we could all be like you well as long as you appreciate a good gobble hole that'll get you far no we're not you might make the multi gobble I'm just going to leave that one alone I'm not even going to touch that one this is a family friendly show well so speaking of family friendly We'll shift it. What's that sound? Oh, I hear a thumping bass, maybe. Oh, look, we're in 20 questions corner. So, Nick, we're going to play 20 questions with you. Okay. You might not be familiar with the game. It's pretty much like any version of 20 questions you've ever heard of, though. I am going to, it's going to be a whole 20. It's going to be about a flipper pinball machine. So we'll have my strong suit. Yes. Yes. What you're known for. For your first 15 questions, you ask a series of yes or no questions. I will clarify, this is a game you have played. I will clarify that. It is a game you have played. That's also one of the conditions we put on it. It's always a flip or pinball, and it's always a game that the person has played, even if they only got half a ball in on it, like Laser War for Tony. Right. I still didn't play it. We were there last time. I did. I set a new high score. I was like, I should go play that. I was like, what was I doing? You were watching Into the Spider-Verse. Oh, that's right. I was watching Spider-Verse. And so, the first 15 questions, you are not to use any internet lookup source. It's just your own mind. But as of question 16, you may go to IPDD, PennSide, whatever online resource to help you sort of sort through things based off of the other questions you already asked. Make sense? Absolutely. Okay. So Tony doesn't fail every time. It's a, we want people to be, we are supportive about people being winners. We don't expect people to have 15 minutes a day to go and memorize IPDB. So this is what we do to qualify it. But I actually already have the game picked out. Tony knows which game I've picked for you. And you may ask your first question whenever you are set, and I will keep count for you. Is it electromechanical? Yes. Was it... Let's change that. Is it multiplayer? No. Okay. Was it made in the 1950s? No. 1960s? Yes. Was it manufactured by Gottlieb? Yes. That's question five. Is it... Hmm. Let's see. How to refer to this. Okay. Does it have four pop bumpers? Yes. Was it designed by Wayne Neyens? No. Does it have four separate sequences? I don't know the answer to that question, so I'll have to have you ask a different question. Okay. Does it have four kick-out holes where it kicks from one to another? Yes. Is it sing-along? Yes. Good job. Question nine. Wow, I was really fast. I do my best. That's challenging being on the hot seat there. No, you did very, very good. I got it before question ten. Yeah, so for folks that are listening along, it's sing-along, a Gottlieb 1967 game. It was designed by Ed Krinsky. Art by Art Steinholm. Or Stenholm. I'm not sure how to pronounce his last name. Probably Stenholm. Stenholm. So, yes, it's a two-flipper game. Four pop bumpers. Exactly four. Two slingshots. It's got five stand-up targets. It's got a roll-under. It also has, and I've played this as well, it's really cool. It's a four-in-line kick-out hole. So if you get it in the far left one, it will actually sequence kicking to the right over and all the way to the last hole. and then it drops out. And that relates to how you score your points. These are building up the values of those holes. Actually, one of our area competitive players, Carrie Wing, who is a big EM fan, has this game, and I played it at her house when she was hosting a tournament. It is a single-player game, and that's about all I can think of. I picked it because Nick actually said it was one of his favorite wedgeheads back on episode 379 of For Amusement Only. that long ago? yes and that's how I knew you played it though so yes actually it was I went to your podcast page and I just was like alright let's jump pages ahead back in time and now let's start reading show notes and see him confirm a flipper pinball game he's playing and I was like oh I know that game so very good job you know once you said it was 60s I thought it might be sing-along, but I thought it would be premature to ask. Yeah, I think that was a very fair game for me to pick, too. I got the impression you knew it very well. Yeah. Sometimes I'm a little more tricky with Tony. Sometimes I pick things that are fairly obvious. It just depends on my mood. But I felt after all of my cruel questions on EMs during our coin-op carnival discussion that you deserved a fair shot of a game, of a mechanical style that you really favored. I appreciate that. Am I not merciful? Today, it seems. Well, now. Today is young. Well, Lord Commodus is tired of speaking, so we'll turn it over to Maximus here. All right, I'm going to go into video games. I'm going to start with just a little bit of news, and then we'll have just a little general chat. But first little bit of news I want to talk about is what is to me no surprise, but apparently is to some people. Activision Blizzard put out their annual 10K filing with the SEC last week, and apparently they had to warn investors that the job cuts could hurt its business. Because apparently having the greatest year you've ever had and using that as a reason to fire 8% of your workforce makes, you know, damages employee morale and causes you to have issues with hiring and retaining skilled employees. Who would have known that being awesome and great and firing everybody because of it will cause morale issues? I'm in shock. I've never. This comes from someone who's basically spent their entire adult working life working on governmental and nonprofit groups, It's not for-profit companies that somehow identified this as a viable, proper strategy. I mean, but I just, yeah, who would have thought indeed? It's like, hey, look, we did everything we were supposed to do, and we had the best year ever, and our reward is punishment. I just don't understand. Right. Yeah, no, it's, again, it wasn't a surprise to me that they've got a hurt, I mean, injuries to employee morale. I mean, of course you do. when they're sitting here telling you, oh, this was great, we were awesome, you're all fired anyway. The remaining skilled talent that's left is probably going to want to jump ship. I would if I were them. I've heard that there have been a fair number of people. I'd even think about going to EA. That's how bad this looks. Harsh words. That's right. Put me on Madden. I don't care. It's safe. Madden will keep me safe. I'm here. Whatever. That's fine. I mean, and this is something that I don't have set aside for today. I'm putting together for a future episode is looking at is just how rough the actual developer community is because of knowing how long you'll have a job and where you'll be and how often companies change. Or even if you go so far as just a company changes the engine that they're working on, typically instead of retraining, they just fire everybody and hire new people who are trained in the new engine and stuff like that. So it's got a real issue with maintaining long-term productivity at a location. Nick, you said you work in computers. You're not a game programmer, are you? No, no. Okay. I work in high-risk insurance. Isn't all insurance high-risk? some is riskier than others as I've learned high risk insurance is that like a property casualty type insurance yes I actually am a health and life insurance agent really I don't practice I just have the license for fun I used to years ago we had a work actually no I'm dropping it now now that I took my new job I'm like I asked I don't need to keep doing that continuing education no we had a work project years ago where we were planning to get some commission pay for putting together a whole insurance trust program for county government and it failed. Not my fault. Not my fault. But you still had to go get the... Well, yeah, because the only people that are allowed to earn commission are agents. I actually have a... I've given my notice that I have a contract with that benefits trust program saying that if I earn any commission, they get 100% of it. And that was... I got a pay raise for doing that. And then we didn't get any commissions. Oops. Oh, well. That was part of it. The other quick little bit of news that I was going to talk about was Anthem. BioWare has been pimping Anthem for, what, two years now? Sure. It's supposed to be the Destiny killer. It is supposed to be the Destiny killer. Is Destiny dead yet? No. Oh. Nick, are you still playing Destiny? Oh, yeah. How's the Destiny? Is it Destiny constantly? 15 minutes a day, you know? Wow, so even more than your normal 10. Yeah. So, well. His new project is to find the fun in that game. I wish you luck. I've never played Destiny. I played the demo and didn't like it. Yeah, no. I have it that I got it for free when they offered it for free. Guess what? I've still not played it. It wasn't worth the free. well Anthem launched and crashed literally it was hard crashing PS4s I heard that Sony was even allowing people who bought it digitally to get a full refund no questions asked which is very atypical especially for being that early in the year there were some initial reports that were not confirmed that it was ricking machines but But the investigations showed that none of the machines were bricked, but several of them required full-on hard reset. Yeah, I did hear about that. I did hear about that. So, but, and they finally found some of the problems, because apparently it wasn't one problem causing it. There were several problems that would interact. That always makes troubleshooting so difficult. So, they have a patch coming forward on the 12th, which will be, what, Tuesday? So, even though they've already patched the game for loot issues, they're just now getting around to patching the game to make it playable for PS4 players And in addition to that issue they also have another issue where it yet another coding problem The gun you start the game with is the most powerful gun in the game. Because the damage tables don't work for the endgame guns. So you can put out higher consistent continuous damage with the beginning gun than anything else in the game. Well, that'll save you a lot of exploration in your loot hunter game. It's definitely going to make it a lot easier to hunt your loot. And as if all of that wasn't bad enough, the general thing I've heard is it's not overly fun. It has things that are really fun, that are really good, but it doesn't have the type of things that get you to keep playing a game that's designed for you to play it all the time. For it being an online, multiplayer thing. It doesn't have that draw. That was where the early reports on Destiny 2 when it came out was, oh, there's just really not enough. I think all this stuff is going to be fixable, and we'll see how it turns out, because the reports of the suit and the way the suits work and this and that, all that stuff is supposed to be fun. It's just wrapped in a package that's overall not. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. In this day and age, games that crash and burn tend to come back up pretty well. At least somewhat well. So, we'll see what ends up happening there. So now, with those last two little bits of news, Nick, I know you love DDR. And you love RPGs. Would you say RPGs are your favorite video game style? Point and Quick Adventure and RPG are pretty much neck and neck. Alright. So, your dislike of modern pinball is entirely based around the fact that the rules and the games and everything are too complicated. Yes. How do you work that with liking RPGs, which are probably the most complicated of the video games? but they might seem complicated at first glance but really it's just a matter of pressing X over and over and over again. So most of the combat systems are really not that difficult in RPGs. Most are designed so that you can basically breeze through it with a single button press if you choose to do that. you can also go hog wild and cast a bunch of magic spells or do whatever but most of the time you can get through an RPG by doing nothing other than hitting the continue button so for me they are a good way to play a game that has a more immersive story than say a Mario game and they take a long period of time, but you always feel like you're progressing. So going back to my 15 minutes a day thing there, or 10 minutes a day, or however many minutes I'm able to allocate. It's 10 minutes for games, 15 minutes for your projects. It's 35 minutes a day. Except that's 25, because I can't do math. Alright, well that's getting edited out. World number three. He's going to look like an idiot on his own. But, yeah, so even within that time frame, you're gaining experience, and then you can save the game, and you feel like you've done something, even if you really have done absolutely nothing to produce the story. So that's what I enjoy about RPGs. A platforming game, you know, by the time I fire it up, it may be that I need to take it back down again. Like your experience with Horizon Zero Dawn, not atypical for me, where, you know, family considerations make it, you know, maybe one of my kids is sick and, you know, I need to deal with them and my wife's already asleep. So, you know, I just shut the game off. So it's not, that happens. That's why I tend to play games that let me just walk away from them. So turn-based games and RPGs that you can just walk away from, and anything that's not multiplayer. Exactly. Nick, have you played Dark Souls? I have played the first five minutes or so and gotten to the first campfire and then shut it off. Okay. But I will one day. It's on the list. Don't rush it. Very long. I don't know. I was going to ask him his opinion of it because I actually was really disappointed with it. I thought it was almost poorly programmed bad. But, well, enemies clipping through walls, they fall off cliffs, you fall... I mean, it's hard, but in a way it's almost hard because I felt like the programming was a little lazy. And they just said, oh, well, it's just hard. It's Dark Souls. It's Dark Souls hard. And I went and I got all my achievements so people wouldn't think I was just a wimp about it. To prove that I could do it. But I loved the aesthetic. I love, and it's a very, like, if you want a min-max, that is a min-max dream in terms of all the gear and everything. And I like those elements, and I like the motif and how they integrated the map and the sound. It was, but the gameplay and re-clearing trash to die to a boss, I didn't mind dying to a boss in five seconds. I cared about having to prove that I could re-clear the trash for 30 minutes repeatedly just to learn. If you were going to do that, you would have still been playing it enough. Well, yeah, exactly. Well, even in MMOs, usually, at least then, you've still got a few number of tries before your two hours are up or whatever. It kind of reminded me of the end of Final Fantasy VII, the 45-minute walk it was from the safe with Sephiroth. Spoilers. Yeah. Spoilers for a game that came out funny. Spoilers, Sephiroth is the last boss. Sephiroth. Still one of the best soundtracks out there. One of the best Final Fantasies still. Sure ain't 15. Now you more favor JRPGs though Nick Right? Versus Western I love them both I grew up on Western and JRPGs They were both introduced to me at about the same time And I started out with Wasteland and Dragon Quest And really haven't looked back And you're still playing Wasteland and Dragon Quest I would assume Pretty much yeah So you're a big Elder Scrolls fan Yes And you also like the Persona series. Absolutely, yep. Okay, interesting. So let's go ahead. I'm going to throw something at you real quick here with no prep time. Like this whole show was. Like everything on the show was, yes. Everything. We're just throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks here. So what are your all-time favorite five JRPGs? Ooh. Is he allowed any order? Any order. It doesn't have to be one through five. I hate doing the, oh, my five favorite in the correct order, because that makes it take nine times longer. You know, you get games that's like, well, this game, I like this system, and I like this, and I like that. Yeah. No, no, let's not. We won't go that crazy. Just any order. Do I need to specify, can I specify series, or do I need to specify an individual game? Whichever you're more comfortable with. Wow, you're real nice. I'm going to be real nice because JRPGs have the fact that, I mean, it's like Final Fantasy. I can cover 15 games for Final Fantasy. Right. Yeah, but some of them are turds. Some of them are turds. Well, it's your game, Tony. So you decided series are okay, Nick. Series are okay. I guess you get it easy. Let's let you go with series. That's fine. I'll be the nice guy. This was the mean one already. So I would say Persona, Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy. Those are the ones that come to the top of mind. Beyond that, I've got to think for a minute. I might have to use the Internet here and think a little harder. Yeah, I'm trying to think of what other big JRPG series. Series, yeah. The Tale series. Oh, like Vesperia and all that, yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Star Ocean. Star Ocean. Star Ocean is good, some of them. What was the mother? Here's the mother series is definitely on the list. Bat and Kytos, I thought, was a fantastic RPG. The first one, not Origins. I hadn't played much of Origins, actually, so that might be great, too. But I really enjoyed Bat and Kytos on the GameCube. I don't think I ever played that one. I hadn't even heard of it. I didn't have a GameCube. Well, it's a collectible card game JRPG where the cards only matter in the battle system, and it's pretty impressive and very fast-paced. So, again, if you're one of those people that just presses A to continue, you can still get through. But there's a goodly amount of strategy involved in the battle system, And you can make it more complex if you choose to. There's quite a few that I've played and quite a few that I enjoy, so this is turning out to be a tough question. But the Chrono series, you know, I enjoyed those. Legend of Dragoon on the original PlayStation. I can't believe I forgot about the Chrono series. Well, because everyone thinks the Chrono Trigger, but that's the only one I've played. I never played anything else in the series. Oh, Chrono Cross, I think, is a bit of an unsung gem, or at least a diamond in the rough, maybe. But it's very interesting. The Suikoden series, I've only dabbled in that, but those are interesting. And, yeah, Mario & Luigi, the Paper Mario series and Mario & Luigi series as a continuation. I enjoy those quite a bit. What's the worst mainline Mario game? Mainline Mario So do you count Things like Super Mario World 2 Yoshi's Island No That's a good game We want bad games The answer is Sunshine so just say it I actually love Sunshine Oh my god you're one of those Oh I knew it Well didn't you see when you called me out When I said I'd never seen I'd never even seen or played any of the Luigi's Mansion games. Yeah, I haven't either. But in my defense, I've also not played Sunshine, and I'm just being really judgmental. Oh, okay. Well, the cool thing about Sunshine, you know, the main deal with it is you have this water pack mechanic where you can shoot stuff. But the best parts of the game are the challenge stages where you lose the water pack, and you have to do very complex platforming in a 3D space, and you're floating in space. So one wrong move and you fall to your death. It's quite enjoyable, and you feel like a platforming god if you're able to succeed. Have you played Super Meat Boy? I have, yeah. Yeah, I liked that one. That was very frustrating. I did get through, I did save Bandage Girl, but I didn't do any of the... I started the first one at a cotton alley, cotton candy alley or whatever it's called. I was like, no, we've reached the end of my ability. I don't know if I could do it anymore That was like at least five years ago I still had some dexterity Yeah, no, it's hard It's definitely hard And you said that You tie your favorite Systems as RPGs And point and click games So, let's pretend And this is pretending That I've never played a point and click game I'm going to play a single point and click game What is the best point and click game for me to play as my first ever point and click game. Quest for Glory 1 VGA remake. I was going to write that on my sheet and fold it up so you'd know what I thought it was going to say. I am nothing if not predictable. It's very good. It is. Quest for Glory 1 and I've only played the VGA remake version. Do you think that's the version I played? Probably. I think that's the only Quest for Glory I've played. Oh, they're all good. They're amazing. Yeah, I mean, I've played like Maniac Mansion, Day of the Tentacle. I've played all those. I've played a lot of point and clicks, but of the Quest for Glory, I think I only ever played the one. Yeah, I think my first game was Quest for Glory 2, the one that takes place in Arabia. And then I went back and played the first Quest for Glory, then played Quest for Glory 2, and actually finished it. Then 3, which I think took place in a jungle nation, if I'm remembering correctly. In the African savannah. In the African savannah. And then the fourth one, I believe, was sort of a Transylvania-type place. Yes. And that's the last one I really remember much of. Romania. And then the fifth one takes place in Greece. Okay, I have played that one, too. I remember the art. I think when it came to that, I played, like, all of the King's Quest games. Mm-hmm. Those are fantastic, too. I have not played all of those. all of the, and, you know, like Sam and Max and Full Throttle and all of that. I played all the Space Quests. Oh, definitely all the Space Quests. Those are great. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Was it four of my favorites? The Time Rippers. Oh, yeah. That one was, I only had a, Nick, as a computer guy, will totally appreciate this. I only had an 8086 computer. Technically, it was an 8088. Yeah. I was going to say 8086 is pretty rare. Yeah. So the problem was Time Rippers bare minimums wanted a 286. But I got it to play. But I couldn't get past the very early challenge where you had to use the floor polisher and, like, mop the symbol on the floor. I would always fail to get it done in time. and I got so mad. I was so angry because I was like, I'm practicing this. I have like this really efficient route and I just couldn't do it. I went over to a friend's house who had a 386 and I was like, this is a joke. This was so easy. You didn't have to be precise like I was. I gave you plenty of time, but mine was running so slow but the game clock wasn't slowing down. So it's just like, nope, you suck at this. Yeah, I had plenty of games like that where it would be like, well, you know what? If I turn the sound off and I do this and I do that, so one on my machine even though it's not supposed to. Yeah. Sounds like we all have a similar experience. But one of the interesting things about those early point-and-quick adventure games is a lot of those timed systems are actually timed to the clock speed of the development computers that they used. So it's a situation where you run it on a slower computer and you have exactly that problem. if you run it on a faster computer you have the opposite problem the time segment progresses so quickly you can never complete it so but I actually have I think I have the Sierra collection on Steam so I went back you can get those I have so many you probably have it I've got the Mega Man Legacy collection on Steam and I was like oh man I haven't played Mega Man in forever Let's play Mega Man Oh I suck Well I mean Yeah those are hard You'll be able to get through Quest for Glory Just don't be the thief guy And fight with your dagger Unless you know what you're doing Those games are so well crafted I am in awe of them even today So when you work on your On your P3 project You're going to have to call the coals up Get them to bless your work That would be great. That would be awesome. Tell them that the little crawl on the screen in between games can promote the next Hero U game. There we go. In exchange. There you go. Problem solved. I still haven't played that. Hero U? Yeah. Nick probably hates it. No, it's fantastic. It's great. Oh, that was so close. Yeah. If only I had known, he would have loved it. I mean, when you guys were talking about that, I put it on my list of things to get, and I never did. I think it's in my wish list. I think. I can't remember. It's worthwhile. Yeah, it's definitely one of those games that is, I had so many games, so I'm like, this game seems interesting. Let's play it eventually, maybe someday. I own so many of those games. See, that's the trap for modern gaming compared to when we were younger. I don't have the time anymore. I own all the games I want to play. Yeah. I still have the new Metro game wrapped up on my shelf. Yeah. Stuff I got for Christmas, I've installed all of it on my PS4, and I've played Horizon Zero Dawn. And I played a little bit of Soul Calibur. Because it's always just like, I need to play. I've got all these games I want to play. and it's just like, I don't have time. Nope. It's hard. And here you could have been playing, but we're recording a podcast. I would have been cleaning or something. I actually walked away in the middle of working on laundry because it's like, I've got to go record the podcast. I'll finish laundry later. That's the joy of being an adult. Yes, true. You just have to make laundry and do a game. There you go. What I would do is the Nick approach and only dedicate 10 or 15 minutes to laundry. Well, that won't work very well. Nope. You were going to say? Nope. We're past the time. I'm compartmentalizing this. We've actually, in my house, we've actually separated it to the point where the girls, especially the oldest, does her own laundry. And my wife handles most everything else, except for my laundry. I do all of my own laundry. Mm-hmm. Right. So... And how does this all work out if they leave wet clothes in the dryer and don't turn it on? Rage. Okay. It works out with rage. I had a feeling that would have happened with children. Wow, it's almost like we had that conversation before. No, I'm pretty sure we never have discussed it. And we wait until she's like, do some laundry. Open the dryer. There's soaking wet clothes in here. Well, nobody's done laundry since Tuesday, and it's Sunday. Mm. Yeah. Oh, boy. Yeah, no. So let's see if we can recover any of these clothes or if it's time to buy a new wardrobe. Yay, wardrobe. Shopping. Well, we reached the end of the show. Thank you, Nick, for coming on and being our first guest of 2019. Maybe our only guest of 2019, the way it's going. Yeah. Is there anything you want to plug here at the end? And on a high note, that's what I always say. And, yeah, I would just encourage all of your listeners to go to coinopcarnival.com and check out the site and see if it's something that you're interested in, as I think it will be for pretty much anybody who has an interest in video games or pinball or how things are constructed or the people that made the games. And pick up a book while you're there. And the store will open March 22nd at the Texas Pinball Festival. and I look forward to meeting you both in person there at Texas Pinball Festival. So thanks again for having me on, guys. Well, we really appreciate you coming on. Sorry that we couldn't accommodate Ryan. I'm sure he will be pleased with how well you dealt with us and me and my tricksy, snarky questions. We'll see if any other of your book tour questions rise to the sheer level of what I tried to come up with. Also if our listeners want to hear more of Nick In the show notes we'll have links to For Amusement Only, the EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast and Gaming on 10 Minutes a Week which he Hosts along with Don, former host Of the Pinball Podcast And former host of the Link Cable Podcast That's one of The podcasts that I still listen to Pretty religious Which one? Gaming on 10 Oh Gaming on 10, okay I thought Link Cable Podcast, you'll know all about JRPGs there. All they talk about are Japanese games. No, no, Gaming on 10 is one of the podcasts that's still on. I had to, I hit critical mass. Oh, yeah. Where it was like, okay, all my podcasts came out this week. I have 75 hours of podcasts to listen to. Time to start deleting stuff. Yeah. I don't have too many video game ones, but Gaming on 10 is one of them that keeps me grounded to my video game world. Sweet, sweet DDR talk. That's right. You know what? That's why you're going to use your P3. You need to design a game for P3 that uses your awesome DDR hardpads. Because the buyers of multimorphic products just want yet another thing to purchase. That's exactly what it is. That's your new challenge. It would be great at shows. It would be great at shows. It's like dial in, let you control with a phone. Well, we let you control with a DDR pad. You better hit perfects or else that ball is draining. Yeah, you can raise the scoops with your feet. That would work. Oh, that would be interesting. Think about it as a mode, and the game will start phantom flipping for you and keep the ball in play as long as you don't miss any of your steps. Actually, that is pretty cool. That is. And as it goes, the final wizard mode is a ten-footer. Okay. I'm all set. I'm ready. I've been preparing my whole life for this. You've been forged in the fires of the arcades for this one moment, one chance, one victory. For those that want to reach out to us, as we noted before, you can email us, eclecticgamerspodcasts, at gmail.com. We're also available on facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcasts. We're on Twitter and Instagram, and Twitch is eclectic underscore gamers. And? What? What? What? What? As you already know. No. From our conversation here, we will be at Texas. If you want to see us at Texas, you can find us walking around. We've got pictures around so you can see us. Yeah, people probably know what we look like. You kind of know what we look like. Did you see that terrible photo Jeff Teolis used as part of the... I did. Not my cool one where I'm with the Dragon's Lair, but the one with us, and I'm looking like I'm staring off into the sun, and it was made out of Skittles, and I was going to eat it or something. I saw that. That's the weird one. It's like, hey, I'm in the picture. I'm in a picture, everybody. Oh, it was a terrible film. Anyway. But, no. Thanks, Jeff. The important thing there is, because of that, there is a non-zero chance that the next episode will be delayed. Right. Because it would actually be on the, we'd normally record on the day we would be, we will be driving back. Correct. So, and every time we thought about trying to record at Texas, we have no will to do it. Yeah, because by the time the day's done, you're just like, I need. sleep. So, yeah, it'll probably be delayed a little bit, but... Yeah. I think we're both off on Monday, so... Yes, we are. So we should be able to... If it's delayed, it'll be a day. Yeah. But FYI, because we follow a schedule and we like to keep people informed. Unless we get real crazy and decide to hold the mics while we drive in front of us and do the actual conversation while driving home. Set the laptop off and run everything. Well, I actually, my portable TASCAM, I do have a Y-Splitter and two lavalier mics. We could clip them. We could clip them and do it. I've got the technology. We can rebuild this. We can do the driving home podcast. People listening to the air, Ben, it's just like the Canadian pinball podcast. Sorry, guys. People have to set the brakes real hard because that guy cut us off and wake Eric up in the back. There are a few podcasts I listen to where you can tell they record in the car. They usually just say, yeah, we do. You can hear it. You hear the wipers. You hear blinkers. One of the podcasts I used to listen to, they are now a defunct podcast, but they would set an audio recorder like your Tascam on the center console between, and there would be five of them in the car, and they would do the whole, they'd do a pre-Gen Con recording. Okay, yeah. Just the. It's not a bad idea. The Disney mic as they're driving down, and then they would release. And then every day that they were at Gen Con, they would release one, and then on the way home they do their wrap-up one. I don't think we're going to do that. Oh, no. I know we're not going to do that. We're not doing like a... I'm going to leave the hope. We're driving out. I'll leave the hope. I'll leave the hope. Look, I'm going to tell you. You can leave the hope if you want, but just think about how many... This is a very judgmental episode, obviously. You think about all these shows, all these pinball ones that do the pre-Pinbird thing, and it's like it's all the same, and you don't have anything to talk about. Shut up! This is what I want to see and what I hope and what I live for. Gaming on 10 and For Amusement Only, they don't do that to us. They know what the people want. Single player EMs. Flipperless. And multiplayer DDR. Or single player DDR, but you combine two pads together. Yes. That's what they want. Shape of a DDR pad. Form of DDR. Yeah. Nice. well thanks again Nick thank you thanks guys