Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • AActivity
  • +Health
  • ?Guide

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 54 - CJ is PISSED

The Pinball Network·video·1h 22m·analyzed·Aug 24, 2024
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Haggus failure & Stern's new Jaws mode highlight manufacturing trust and game depth.

Summary

Triple Drain Podcast Episode 54 features Joel, Travis, and Tom discussing the collapse of Haggus Pinball, praising Stern's new Jaws: The Revenge mode and speaker light integration, and debating the importance of challenge modes and wizard modes in modern pinball games. The hosts emphasize the value of buying from established manufacturers with proven track records over taking pre-order risks, and discuss how companies like Spooky, JJP, and Stern have earned consumer trust through reliable production.

Key Claims

  • Haggus has ceased operations and customers with pre-orders are losing their investments

    high confidence · Joel opens segment stating 'haggus is dead they're gone' and discusses people who pre-ordered multiple games receiving nothing

  • Stern has released speaker light kits for Pro and Premium games, with LE kits coming later

    high confidence · Tom and Joel discuss Stern speaker lights integrated into Jaws, John Wick, Godzilla, and James Bond with clarification that current kits only fit 4-inch speakers in Pro/Premium models

  • Jaws: The Revenge is a new NES-style mini-game mode where players eat people and fight bounty hunters

    high confidence · Tom describes the mode as having an 8-bit NES feel with sounds and LCD graphics

  • Zach Sharpe at Flippin' Out made customers whole on Haggus deposits despite taking a financial hit

    high confidence · Joel praises Zach for 'making anybody that had a deposit with him whole' and 'taking the hit' to protect customers

  • Pre-ordering pinball machines without seeing the product in hand carries significant financial risk

    high confidence · Joel endorses the philosophy from Dennis, Tony (Eclectic Gamers), Nick, and Kevin not to pre-order; Travis warns about companies relying on pre-orders to fund R&D being a risky business model

  • Manufacturing pinball machines requires substantial upfront capital and daily operational costs that can bankrupt underfunded startups

    high confidence · Travis discusses learning about R&D, production, raw materials, and labor costs through Funhouse project; references that 'time is what kills you' — every day without production is a losing day

  • Stern speaker light support has been added to Jaws, John Wick, Godzilla, and James Bond with more titles to come

    high confidence · Joel confirms speaker light code already built into named games and notes Stern said 'more titles to come'

  • Joel sold his Deadpool machine partly because it lacked challenge modes and speedrun options

Notable Quotes

  • “haggus is dead they're uh I like yeah let's enjoy the moment let's enjoy Joel kills another company”

    Tom@ 4:09 — Marks the opening of major discussion about Haggus collapse; establishes tone of dark humor mixed with genuine sympathy for affected customers

  • “I genuinely feel sorry for anybody that had money invested in it that they're getting nothing out of it”

    Joel@ 5:10 — Signals empathy for Haggus victims while setting up discussion of pre-order risk culture in pinball

  • “every day you're not making machine all you're doing is losing money”

    Travis (quoting unnamed video source)@ 12:05 — Core insight into why cash-flow dependent manufacturers fail; demonstrates understanding of manufacturing economics

  • “don't buy a game until you can the game is in the Box don't don't pay for game”

    Joel (referencing Dennis and Tony from Eclectic Gamers)@ 5:41 — Articulates emerging community best practice against pre-orders; positions trust as earned through delivery

  • “it's just lesson learn definitely go with sometimes you can't just go with your gut sometimes you have to go with what is facts and the companies that have proven over years at a time”

    Travis@ 13:40 — Summarizes learning from Haggus failure; emphasizes importance of manufacturer track record over speculation

  • “I think pinball needs more of that where like there's additional stuff to do in the game besides the game”

    Joel (about Jaws: The Revenge mode)@ 25:43 — Expresses demand for challenge modes and mini-games as features that increase game longevity and appeal

Entities

HagguscompanyJoelpersonTravis MuriepersonTompersonStern PinballcompanyZach SharpepersonSpooky PinballcompanyJersey Jack Pinball (JJP)company

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Haggus Pinball collapse creates community-wide discussion of pre-order risk and trust in manufacturers; Carrie Hardy producing documentary-style coverage signals serious community engagement with the failure

    high · Joel references Haggus's complete shutdown, multiple hosts discuss financial losses, Carrie Hardy noted as producing cinematic coverage

  • ?

    code_update: Stern released Jaws: The Revenge, an NES-style mini-game mode with independent gameplay loop separate from main ruleset

    high · Tom confirms new mode with 8-bit aesthetics, players eat people and fight bounty hunters; mode works independently from main Jaws game

  • ?

    code_update: Stern integrated speaker light code support into Jaws, John Wick, Godzilla, and James Bond with announced plans for more titles

    high · Joel: 'it's already built into Jaws it's already built into John Wick they added support for Godzilla and um Bond serious clerk they so those are four games as of right now that there's speaker light code for'

  • ?

    product_launch: Stern released expression speaker lighting accessory kits for Pro and Premium machines (4-inch speakers); LE kit with larger speaker support still pending

    high · Tom displays Stern speaker lighting kit, clarifies kit compatibility with 4-inch Pro/Premium speakers; notes LE kit not yet released for 5-inch speakers

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Haggus failure accelerates community shift away from pre-orders toward requiring proven manufacturer track records; hosts explicitly endorse buy-only-when-delivered philosophy

Topics

Haggus Pinball CollapseprimaryPre-order Risk and Manufacturer TrustprimaryStern Speaker Light KitsprimaryJaws: The Revenge Code ModeprimaryChallenge Modes and Game LongevityprimaryManufacturing Economics and Cash FlowsecondaryGame Design Philosophy and Feature ParitysecondaryPodcast Production Chaosmentioned

Sentiment

mixed(0.35)— Predominantly negative about Haggus collapse and sympathy for affected customers dominates early discussion, but strongly positive about Stern's innovations (speaker lights, Jaws mode) and established manufacturers' reliability. Hosts balance pessimism about pre-order culture with optimism about industry leaders delivering quality products.

Transcript

youtube_auto_sub · $0.000

[Music] the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast so why start it right now so just to confirm we it is 3:36 336 we were supposed to start at 3: Tom had some technical difficulties we worked through all that we figured it all no it had to be Travis I hit the button and I was like okay let's just go I thought we were ready to go and Tom or Travis goes oh wait I should probably set up so 37 minutes and he has what are you talking about I told you I had to get my desk can you please raise your chair you look absurd I can I can barely see him oh I know it's kind of good actually it's good but it's been a while care I'll do the podcast like this the whole entire time why not Tom how you do doing you good you ready to go I think I'm okay I think you look great you look great you look great sound great that's all we can ask for that's all that matters Travis are you going too high what the desk isn't moving your chair is moving it's not supposed to go this High look at this what is going on okay roll roll the theme song We're three guys who like the talk and ball so we came up with a CL our we Jo and we call ourselves triple triple triple trip triple yep yep yep yep yep yep he figed out you just stood up you stood up that's what you did I really wish I could say this is like a planned bit but we we really are just that stupid don't include me in this don't don't Tom didn't do anything wrong it was you were the producer you started it without telling us everywhere I walk into I've done something wrong Tom do you see how this plays out every time I do like clockwork we're not ready to start and then Joel just starts it like L dah and then just makes fun of us for not being ready got to get going we got to get going we got we got Jo Joel has dinner plans I have it's okay it's Friday are you even going to eat where are you guys taking the golf my wife is cooking but she's like we're eating at 5: but then we got to take the kids out they're doing a sleepover at house tonight we got volleyball tonight Nicole and I we've got a whole night it's going to be great it's great Friday night so happy Friday mean volleyball yeah yeah we still play it's very competitive you don't blow out your knees doing that no I'm I drink my milk and my wife's in Florida with two of my kids right now taking one to college and then next next weekend I got to take Neil to college I was going so you have a second college kid now yeah and he's in Florida he's going to University of South Florida dang wow that's going to start seeing those L disappear that is very not Wisconsin good thing good thing he has a partial scholarship so awesome awesome well congrats yay education all right uh stuff to talk about um take us first off I apologize once again for being it's been quite a long time since we recorded if you didn't notice the summer months are typically a lull with news as well as uh we're busy we've been busy with stuff what are you talking about there was news yesterday yeah we kept trying to get you to podcast this whole time Joel look just throw in the center of the bus can't we just talk as friends yeah if uh well we talk as friends almost every day on Facebook but to actually get to get on a call and to make sure C you know Travis's camera's charged and everything it takes a long it's a lot of prep it's a lot of prep but we're here we're here let's enjoy the moment um uh I have a good transition here but it's uh haggus is dead haggus is dead they're gone they're uh I like yeah let's enjoy the moment let's enjoy Joel kills another company everyone it's me I have um coming in hot it's not my fault it's not my fault I've touched a haggus machine one time at Texas pinball Festival I played I think two games on fa and you know what honestly it was awesome it was great oh Tom got his gun plastic from yeah they sent that to you that was a separate thing you ask distributor sent it thank you very much nice okay good you want to give him a shout out I don't I don't know who I mean it was from it was actually from Stern actually he told me it was coming okay all right uh you know what's not coming uh haggus anything from screw that it was from my distributor's coming from magas no kingp games rules oh man okay well if um I don't know we don't have to talk a ton about it but um uh yeah ha dead haggus is dead and I I genuinely feel sorry for anybody that had money invested in it that they're getting nothing out of it I know um I know Tom knows a few people that had games on order um I mean could you imagine if you put in for the five games yeah and got one of five got or none or none I know I know I can't I can't imagine um I do think um well I know like um Dennis and Tony with the collected Gamers they always say you know don't don't buy a game until you can the game is in the Box don't don't pay for game they're against the pre-order model entirely and then I know uh Nick with with Buffalo Nick and Kevin they've been preaching that as well you know don't wait until you play the game buy it no game is no game is unobtanium you may end up paying more for it later but at least the game is there and the longer that I've been in this Hobby and the more that I've heard that preached the more I'm starting to believe there's some there's some validity to that um with all that said there are companies like spooky spooky sells out day one they sell out of all their games basically day one and then you got to wait a week or a week a year a year for your game to be made because I know like Texas Chainsaw MERS are still making them Looney Tunes I know Rick and Morty took a long time but you know there are companies like that they about cgc cgc is a great example there are people that um what is it October oh Travis not my dog is that Monica what is mon what' you do Travis are you saying Monica's a dog no I am not I am not saying wrong I am saying I've heard recently that Monica can get upset about little things that Travis does or doesn't do so I assume he did whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa she listens to this podcast and you are about to have a new roommate Joel's just on a roll is Joel's gonna get Joel is gonna get his ass kicked the next time SE him Travis what's your dog's name I'll I'll put it as a uh well I'll list him as a co-host uh for the episode uh his name is CJ CJ okay he's he must be very excited about something upstairs oh there he is there yep golden retriever just he's hag man hag really pisses him off he just he about pre-orders not being delivered he's just furious yeah okay so anyways I can't I genuinely feel so bad for anybody that had money it's been really Carrie Hardy's been doing a really interesting series on it um that I've it's cinematic genius Joel yeah unfortunately I don't watch it at all because I just listen to it as a podcast cuz it's very Dateline TV like he really went in on the on the cinematography you know pulling on pulling on the heartstrings but uh did it's it's there's some really valuable information and to listen to some of these collectors or some of these people that had money in and and the ups and downs that they had uh with people that I just I genuinely I I really feel for it I I need to stop talking about haggas CJ's really not happy about it um that dog is pissed about ha he's like right God why can't we just have one professional podcast ever uh because then that wouldn't be us that wouldn't be us true um so I don't know and I also I mean I feel so bad for Zach Zach at flipping out I mean he really he really put his neck out um trying to you know but at the same time like good on Flipping Out for for making anybody that had a deposit with him whole I mean sure he's the one that had to take the hit but luckily I hope he really earned some buyers out of that or some respect from like okay well he he clearly he's he protected me once I'm going to keep going through them again so I I don't know I just it's just a really unfortunate situation all around and um yeah I hope I I'm very curious to see how it's going to end up finally being resolved uh but it just it sucks it's unfortunate because uh the actual game that I played was beautiful it played well like the product itself was pretty awesome and it just sucks that people aren't going to get it so um it was a it was an interesting thing cuz I remember we played the um the version fathom I can't remember Tom if you were there with us but I remember I played it I I never touched it sorry okay so I played it with the loser kids then at Expo two years ago I think and it was well built oh yeah it play it played well the 2.0 was interesting and you know I was pleasantly surprised by that so you know at that point it's like okay it's it's starting out well they got you know the promos out and everything and it's a game that I think that enough people would enjoy and want to play it and it seemed like it was priced right now granted being over in Australia and having to ship all the way over here there there are challenges with that but yeah I don't know it just I I remember us talking about this last year whenever they announced Centaur and we were just kind of like it's kind of odd that this got announced when it did when they're still trying to put out fathoms and there's still people that have money put in haven't seen it and so I mean that just runs you know that runs a huge risk right there in terms of just putting money forward so I don't know I mean on my end I'm learning a lot through the um through the Funhouse project how this all works and everything and I'm seeing the amount of money that goes into it like if anybody ever doubts out there how much money truly goes into just the R&D the production the raw materials just paying people that work like there's so many people involved in these games these projects it's it's numerous so it's you know just seeing the amount of money that it requires buers it definitely gives me pause whenever I hear about companies that don't necessarily have the money up front and they do rely on pre-orders to start funding other things you just I mean it's like that in any industry though you got to be very careful of doing something like that because then you run into bottlenecks you run into it everywhere and you put yourself in a corner so unfortunately it definitely appears that this is what has happened you know and I only know the amount about haggus based on what we read online based on videos and just hearing people talk about it but other than that it's just yeah it's a shitty situation and hopefully it gets resolved for the people that have money put in obviously may not happen and if it doesn't you know hopefully it's just Lessons Learned once again I mean it's this seems to be something that happens from time to time just with people producing pinball machines you know it's brutal and it's almost it just um I mean one of the guys on car's video basically said um you know time is Time's what's going to kill you it's the it's the fact that every day you're not making machine all you're doing is losing money like all you're doing is losing money and uh and that really just gives me a lot more respect for like you know we talk about with Stern like Stern's got to keep the factory going and it's because they have so many employees they got everything going like they've got to keep that line moving otherwise that's a negative day every single day that they're not making a machine that can be sold um and so it just it gives me you know a lot of respect for the companies that we know are busy that have the games you know pumping them out like cgc even though it's going slow they are pumping out games you know uh barrels of fun good on them like labyrinths are moving off the line they're they're doing their job um same with jjp same with you know American still makes games not like I was surprised they had a Facebook post the other day of like they were making a Hot Wheels like I didn't I didn't know there is a big demand for those right now but they're making them so I don't know I um it's just it's unfortunate it's a negative it's a negative feeling overall in the in the Hobby and I just I feel for anybody that lost out on money and um yeah I hope I hope something I don't know I don't know how that's going to resolve at all positive but it is what it is you know just face facts in any industry there's always going to be failures yeah in any industry Pinball's not unique in that to where everything's just Invincible true you know and so it's just kind of one of those things that if you are a person that is interested in buying pinball machines and you're listening to a podcast obviously you're really interested in pinball you know it's just lesson learn definitely go with sometimes you can't just go with your gut sometimes you have to go with what is facts and the companies that have proven over years at a time and so I mean that's why even again with the Funhouse project it's perfectly acceptable to me I wish we would get just orders left and right just knocking down the doors but at the same time it's understandable especially when dealing with B Williams stuff that people are kind of pausing like okay is this remake coming is it real is it here is it there I mean we still get that even though we've seen them manufactured in person before so it's understandable and it's just you know it's just the way that it is until people can prove that they can be fully trusted that they get a game out then it's it's earned is what it becomes so I think that's very important for any pinball pinball manufactur out there is to continue to earn consumer trust and you do that moving forward like for instance you said spooky like they have you know you can trust that they are going to produce the machine obviously Stern and jjp we know that they will but spook a great example of this you can trust that they will get it out so I think the ones that are out there right now they've all proven they can get it out so until they prove otherwise I think all those manufacturers that are currently out there are trustworthy manufacturers and worth you know taking a look at moving forward I agree um yeah yeah what I will say is I'm I'm I have to admit something I I am uh somewhat distracted by Tom's background and the reason being is look at all the expression lights he's got so many expression lights and so many games and the other thing that he has are speaker lights speaker lights guys so first off shout out to every Stern employee that listens to us because I know those aren't Stern speaker lights though well I mean some of them are that's you know you had to say it CU I'm shouting out the stern employees right now Tom okay to the's trying he's trying to suck up Tom let's let's let him do his Shing say is we had a really good conversation it was either last episode or the episode before about how awesome the stern speaker like Stern should do speaker lights I'm assuming that's what he's showing I I don't know is that what you're box of stern Stern uh expression speaker lighting accessory kit Pro premium are you about to say that Stern decided to do speaker lights just because of our podcast and they managed to get it to Market in two weeks I mean your word's not mine but it sure seems like it it sure it sure seems like it I'm just saying we had a whole conversation I'd also like to give a shout out to pin monk because I'm GNA take all the fans out of my computer so or my uh my power suppli so I don't have to hear them anymore that's awesome while I'm streaming that's so great or podcasting what I am saying Travis is Tom and I have been on Team speaker lights for a long time and you were kind of like I don't know you will sell units I don't know but now here we are speaker lights yes your game is upd Speaker lights we got to hear the duck is there new Godzilla code out that I'm unaware of I know there was like a couple weeks ago oh I just now turned on my game after a couple weeks okay proceed well you know what the new code has new topper effects which reflect in the speaker lights so I think it's awesome I think it's so cool that Stern's doing it as of right now um it is it's already built into Jaws it's already built into John Wick they added support for Godzilla and um Bond serious clerk they so those are four games as of right now that there's speaker light code for um my assumption is they will continue they did say with more titles to come so I my assumption is they will do the majority of Spike 2 if not all of them um but I just I'm such a sucker for cool lighting and if the lighting can be integrated into the gaml I think that's all awesome um I do want to warn people that IM if they had under cabinet lighting well there's other mods you can see behind me that could tap into that and do that um I don't have the stern speaker lights yet because rip because the kit right now they advertise the kit as Pro and premium what they should be saying is this is a kit for 4 in speakers it's like four and a qu four and a half I don't know it's the kit for the stock Pro and premium speakers which are 4in speakers if you if you have upgraded your speakers to a 5 in speaker I think it's five and a quarter that's pretty large this kit that is the same speaker that's in an Le that's what Tom's used to he likes those big speakers in that mired backlash it's a lot of girth did we did we get a like a Stern speaker sponsorship that I'm totally unaware of if anybody what is happening right now I'm just I'm you guys get all the stuff no no no I okay obviously I've got it all on there not being handed a Stern speaker for everything I am going to buy where Joel's going with it cuz he's talking about the stern speaker lights and then he says I don't have one I haven't the reason I hav bought the reason I haven't probably has like 10 of them being sent to him right now if I show up on his doorstep I haven't bought them because I upgraded my speakers I need the Le kit they haven't released the kit yet I can't buy it Trav as soon as they have for Avengers I'm getting it but it has hear that there's still two other of us on Triple drain it's not just Joel and Comm Trav I'm sorry what I said in the past I was drunk that night okay I'll just are you're saying the speaker lights are cool is what you're saying I am saying the speaker lights are awesome it's a great idea I'm not taking credit for it but I do think Tom and I were saying is a good idea and I'm glad other people think it's a good idea and I think it's awesome so I'm excited add them to my games when they release the Le kit because I like to upgrade my speakers to 500 speakers I actually have it in my John Wick that I'm pointing at right now that you can't see so wait just to clarify not on because I don't want to I don't want to burn out the game that makes sense so the pro premium is 4 inch and the Le is 5 in is that what you just said Ellie that's what she said Ellie's by that's why Tom's an Ellie guy you know I'm going to ask like I'm not even trying to ask this question but but I know it's I've got to ask it anyways cuz I want to know the answer so you guys do with it what you will okay does that extra inch really matter oh what's the difference like I'm actually asking wow do bigger speakers sound better than smaller speakers potentially depends on the quality speak extra inch matters Tommy Boy hey Tom do you feel the leie speakers sound better than the pro speakers a drill every day I can't hear any so you don't you don't recognize case of yeah that's what I mean does the size matter on them I I I couldn't I can't tell so so what's the benefit then Joel for waiting for the Le why are you Wai just going to keep Win Schilling here because I have pin wolfer speakers in mind those actually sound better dedicated those well now we're talking about pen wolfers yeah those are those are legit I think the bigger speaker sounds better I do I also think the bigger speaker looks better that's why they're in the Le even if it's not I do think it looks better with all that said I have seen the current kit with the 4in speakers and it looks good like it really does look good so I just I what I'm just what I'm trying inform the listener is I think it sounds great I'm been trying to inform the listener that if you have stock Pro or premium speakers buy the kits now if you've upgraded your speakers or you have an Le by Bye by you got to wait for the Le kit that's that's all I'm saying that's it is that good well I look forward to us getting our free speakers after that 20 minute infomercial just I mean it did start with Tom zookers um okay other things on the list uh yesterday yesterday um another big win from Stern released a ridiculous new mode I think it's called Jaws the Revenge is that right it's a it's it's absurd so awesome um Tom have you played it yes what are your thoughts it's good just can you elaborate just a tiny smidge more do you want me to talk about the whole thing or that would be great yeah just okay all right you just asked a very general question so I gave you a very general answer it's like a like a yes and kind of situation like yes and yeah yeah and oh oh and uh it it's very cool because it's like its own game it's it very uh nintendoe NES kind of feel to it uh with the sounds and the and the LCD uh but basically your jaws and you're trying to eat people and beat up on boats and stop the bounty hunters from killing you so you can eat more well let me ask this so um we've we've had lots of LCD conversations and and I think we all will admit it's rare that we look at the LCD while we play how well does this game the new mode convey what to do or how to do it without looking at the LC like does do the inserts like is it pretty easy to understand what you're doing just by looking at inserts as well I mean kind of kind of okay i' I've only played it like two times Travis have you played it uh no not in its current iteration I have not okay I have not maybe at some point I will it looks fun like I I really I've love the 8bit part of it I think that something like that is sorely needed in pinball in general just because it just it brings up like I mean it's that word it's Nostalgia let's face facts all of us at the age that we are at 8 bit speaks to us if you're into gaming at all you definitely understand where that comes from now obviously if if you are below 30 the odds of you truly understanding it are a little bit lower unless you've gone you know old school stuff and all that but I distinctly remember growing up in the Atari and Nintendo you know world and it just yeah that that speaks to me and it reminds me of the jaw's video game as well so I think it's it's really cool that there's almost like its own video game within a pinball machine but you're still playing pinball doing it so that appeals to me big time my son has come downstairs and handed me Cube no I know I'm not I'm wiping no buns bro uh do you need this I got wipes Joel I got wipes he he has a little Rubik so if you hear a thing solving it yeah it's it's just a two by two but it's still fun did did you get into cubing I learned how to do a Rubik's cube when I was in college and that's the end that you took CL or what no you can just you know instru yeah he just sat on his his roomit you're sitting around at a party doing a Rubik's Cube no this is Joel at a party come on no way wow um yes I think the Jaws mode looks awesome I think it looks awesome I think it looks very fun um I will very much admit that um I think CJ's also thinks it's fun um I will very much admit that I am like so close to just placing an order for Jaws and um no you're not seeing a mode like that I just feel like I'm like I don't I don't have any excuse not to at this point I I think pinball needs more of that where like there's additional stuff to do in the game besides the game I does that make sense th% yeah it's kind of like a game plus or something like that that just gives more longevity game overall plus it's something too I've noticed with my own kids that since they've learned that you could play the wizard modes at the beginning of games on certain games just by holding in the both flippers that that appeals to them as well so I think something like this is pretty cool that you just add and it doesn't have to be something that's super in depth either you know it could be something that's just a almost like a side quest type mini game that only takes 10 minutes or so I I think stuff like that's really cool for pinball I yes and honestly that's one of the reasons I got rid of Deadpool was being that Deadpool had no challenge modes there was I had no way I just solv it by the way yeah it took me like forever but anyways uh um if Deadpool had a speedrun to it there was nothing there was to where you fight each each villain would you have kept it would that be something that would entice you to keep it it would have been it would have I would have thought about it a lot more because um when I was streaming Deadpool it's like like what are my options my options when I hit start are to just play the game do I play do I like that's it I just there's something about if when I'm streaming a game if I have two hours it's nice to break it up once in a while where it's like you know what I'm gonna I'm not the guy that gets to the final wizard mode so to just be able to play the final wizard mode um like my parents if I go over to my parents house and they have my turtles you know I'll play a game but then I'll be like you know what let me play half Shield challenge real quick and why I'm at it let me go ahead and play final battle real quick and it's like I feel like I played three very different experiences all within roughly I don't know 10 minutes each and I'm good with that like that's that's so cool and that's what I'm excited about with jaws is that game looks honestly like it's it could be its own game kind of to itself of like I do I got 10 minutes do I what am I feeling what do I want to do and just that where it's where when you feel like you're you're buying a game that actually has so much more depth to it of what do you want how do I want to play this in this moment I love it I I just love that thought um the only thing I can think of though is it's just like I don't know how Stern decides what games get the extra attention like um like does like like Jaws so Jaws isn't 1.0 yet right um there's no in and I think I think it's been said before that for a game to be 1.0 everything in the rule card and every insert needs to be like explained so if there's a you know if there's an insert like great white right there in the middle of the Playfield on Jaws they need a they need to have that insert mean something so there's a mode clear that's forgotten but like there's no there's nothing in the inserts or in the rule card that says anything about Jaws the Revenge but yet somehow it was decided to dedicate you know software and time and resources to making it I'm I'm really glad they did I I I just don't know like how I don't know I don't is it like a the criteria of coming up with something like that why why was why did Jaws get the extra attention to be able to dedicate time and resources to adding that while you know is is James Bond gonna get an8 bit random side quest mode I mean it's it's hard to say I I don't know the answer to that I think what it boils down to especially when it comes to like coding and rules I think that you know just my shot in the dark that the ones that are doing the different games the different projects probably have a vision of where they want to take it an overall view right so they're going that that direction and then sometimes yeah just like Tom was showing there sometimes the goal post May shift a little bit and an idea may come up that inspires something and then I guess it depends too like the teams you know I I think that and this goes for any company out there there's probably certain teams that are just very cohesive and what they do and they're just in sync that they can just get out whatever they need to get out in a very efficient and quick manner I mean I I think that that play into it as well yeah you I mean you just it's hard to it's hard to say I mean you would assume that different people have different skill sets right yeah that somebody may be whether it's their Vision might be better than somebody else's or their ability to put together code in a more efficient manner maybe better their ability to have more stamina being in front of a computer for8 to 10 hours a day and just go and just get into a flow I mean there's there's all kinds of reasons why you know some seem like it's more than others I think just different people have different strengths and different weaknesses and I think sometimes you see that play out in the teams that come together because they may play off each other they may complement each other or they may not complement each other you know it's just it's hard to say without being inside there but I wish that the uh the various pinball machines would have features like that I think it's pretty cool like we've seen it like you said with what Ninja Turtles with the half shell challenge I think we've seen it with different wizard modes being up front like search or the Newar mode on Jurassic Park and I think what Godzilla has king of monsters with it and I can't remember is Jaws have Fourth of July challenge is that on there or am I just coming up with this in my head did they end up making that I don't I don't know if JW has any challenge modes yet hold on a July is in it Fourth of July is in it cuz I streamed it you can you can fast forward to it I I do like Fourth of July is in a Joel yes and I know thank you Tom Tom reporting From The Trenches Shark Hunter challenge oh yeah that's the that's the video mode yeah I yeah like right there I I think stuff like that is cool and that's kind of a backdoor way to create I don't know just a good look for your game that you allow different modes to be available at the start button and you just allow for the player to oh 100% go at it a different way I like him because it's an awesome thing for a casual player and what I mean is like if my dad steps up to Godzilla I can just go straight into King of the monster the topper challenge because it's inless ball save it's just like guaranteed he's got five minutes to play Let's see what you do and that's what I'm seeing in this new Jaws mode it's it's it's really the ball save is pretty constant so I just I think it's super awesome it's so great and I'm glad they like I really love Jaws I really think I'm going to get one I genuinely miss the game and the fact that they're continuing to flesh it out and make it even better and better is awesome I just I just was throwing out the question of you know is it is it because Ellen and team had such a big scope at the beginning and they're they're dead set on on accomplishing everything in that or like you know if if Jack danger and rid had said with uh with Foo Fighters like hey I want I want you to have the ability to play as the overlord you know if they would have said that comment publicly would they then the stern team be forced to set aside time to code in you know that I don't know I don't know these answers um but regardless I think we're all for the more Stern wants to put into a game the better because uh that's one thing Stern does extremely well and that's their the code the way that they can code a game and really give you the most out of a machine is is really awesome yeah and I can't really think of any other manufacturer that's really doing that true I don't know jjp does that or not they at I don't think they have but no I'm not sure spooky does I don't have one close by me Joel you would know you played one Scooby did it have I've never had Scooby um you didn't have Scooby you I have TNA did you have Halloween somebody correct us if we're wrong yeah let us know in the comments is there another manufactur that adds modes afterwards um but it's awesome um other two things I want to mention real quick it it should lead to our next discussion which is um the last two games I streamed were stranger things and Iron Maiden uh short and sweet Iron Maiden I never really cared for this game and reason being I really never knew what I was doing I've also I've also just just keep coming just follow with me I've just uh I I I don't love the band um it's never been a band I cared for and so when I'd play it on on location it was just just like the game shoots well but I don't I just don't really know what I'm doing um well I've had the opportunity to stream it so I I was able to invest time into learning the game and um honestly the first hour of playing Iron Maiden made me miss jaws and the reason I'm saying that is it just it feels so much like a Keith Lan game the shot layout is so creative and the way that he can have vertical shots but also horizontal shots and four flippers in and out and this and that it's just the layout in Iron Maiden is exceptionally good I really love shooting that game um I also realized something elwin does very well somehow he makes the the orbit shots and the spinner shots the easy shots but the ramp shots are the hard shots like like in Godzilla the left ramp is probably the hardest shot like so many other games so many other designers make the ramp shots the easy shot so you hit the ramp and the ball is gently handed back to you on a flipper and then you can hit another ramp it it's it's gently like perfectly on a wire form presented to you again on the flipper um I don't feel like Ellen does that I don't feel like Ellen you've never played Bon 60th uh well yeah those ramps those ramps and B yeah it's just I feel like it because the ball stays on the Playfield for so many of his shots and the way they Loop and spin and go around it's just um I don't know it's something that stands out to me that like it makes I don't know I just I have a lot of fun shooting his games and and um I just don't feel like you're rewarded as much on an Ln game of an easy shot up a ramp that gets re delivered back to you on a on a flipper yeah I don't am I wrong on that is that no I don't I don't there's not a lwi game I don't like I mean it's they're just all really good yeah it's really it's a lot of fun and the code I like I I can tell Iron Maiden was an amazing game one and he's just only Built off off of it like the code is actually relatively simple to understand once you once you get into it and you can go down a bunch of different paths cyborg multiball tasks task based multiballs where you're chipping away at it throughout the game I love it I love it it reminds me obviously of Jaws and the Bounty hunts love it love it love it love it um now I compare that to stranger things honestly stranger things premium's always been a game that I've thought about owning reason being because of the UV kit because of the projector because it's such a unique experience when I had a he in my house my nieces and nephew they loved the game loved it they they loved the game um if you're looking to add a game to your collection that anybody can play and just is such a unique and cool experience stranger things would be an awesome addition for that um with all that said I was playing the heck out of the game and and I just I realized I I don't need it I don't need to own the game and reason being I just nothing drew me in the presentation incredible but the the actual code the actual modes the actual playing of the game it just it's good but it wasn't amazing like it didn't and and it kind of brings me to my question of like when I was playing the game I found myself I just wanted to get through it so it was just like oh start a mode to get through the mode so I could get through the next so I could get through the next you're chopping wood a little well yeah it's just I I realized I was so focused on progression that I wasn't enjoying the journey and also the journey itself was just some of the modes were fun in Creative other modes like quarter hunt quarter Hunt is just like I just never cared for it's a long mode or um the uh there's another one something Camp not camp but it's like wormwood Whitewood wormwood whatever it is it's like it's so many ramp shots it's just so many ramp shots and it's just like I'm okay if I drain because the Mode's over at least I can check the box and that's one step closer to Total isolation and then I would get to Total isolation I'm like this Mode's fine but it's not it's not incredible so so what you're saying is too many modes like too much sex no no not at all not at all sounds like to me Tom I exactly what saying what I'm saying is like I realize how important modes are and you you can't you have to enjoy the journey so if the modes are boring and you feel like you're just trogg through them to get to the next step to progress through the to the fun thing in the game it's just it it doesn't give me that one more game type of feel so my qu my actual question with all that leadup is are what are some of your favorite modes like what are when you play Pinball what's a what's a mode that like when you start it even though it's a small step in the big you know the whole uh journey of that pinball machine at least when you're in that that that mode you're having fun like it's I'm excited to be playing this mode right now um I so that's kind of a just throwing it out there I mean I have a few thoughts but I'm just dropping this on you I don't know Travis anything coming to like are there any modes not necessarily a mini wizard mode but just like game modes that you enjoy playing so we were talking about this a little bit earlier when you're talking about modes are you talking specifically like the classic Mode are you talking about like any type of side feature or multiball that could be put in or something like that let me say I mean there's a lot of games like a lot of Dwight games it's like ramp ramp shot you're in a mode and once you so many modes then you get to your mini wizard mode so like every time you hit start you're going to play one or two of those modes so are there any modes like Iron Maiden has five modes that you play before you get to two minutes like are there any modes that stand out to you because those are the things you're probably gonna play the most so yeah for me personally there's several modes that that I enjoy playing but then there's several types of modes that I enjoy playing because of what the framework is for this them so for instance something like Icarus on Iron Maiden right it's very simple it's just the ramps that's all it is but if you hit so many ramps I think it's what once you get past 20 million points you have your exit up that Center ramp or underworld shot or whatever you want to call it just to hit the target so something like that it's so simple yet for me personally if I'm playing it on location okay whatever if I'm playing it here at home it's a lot of fun to try to get to like a two or 3x play fil multiplier and see how many ramps I can combo out and see if I can break 500 million or a billion just something just nutty like I I enjoy stuff like that or something like um fear the dark say that was my least favorite mode my least favorite mode IR because well could not hit the ramps the ramps are hard yeah well and it's also let's face facts it is basic because it's just a Rams mode right but it it depends what you want to do with it and what your goals are it right so something like fear of the dark I really enjoy because it's you got to hit this shot to light your Spinners or you could hit another purple shot again to make it 2X and then you hit this spinner or you can even hit both Spinners and make it 4X and just see the points just go bur like stuff like that I get a soul sh yeah exactly I enjoy thate a lot yeah I like stuff like that um any type of side quest feature that shows up that's why I really like Godzilla we've talked about that in the P before something like jet fighters or you know um like the Rampage I know a lot of people don't like that necessarily if it interrupts something but I do like the idea of just priority modes all of a sudden coming out of nowhere or something that you can build and go to yeah yeah stuff like that Titanosaurus is a lot of fun when you can get different stacks and sometimes yeah like that's a great example actually Tom Titanosaurus on its own I'm just like you know targets whatever but Titanosaurus with a multiball with trying to maybe seeing a 2X Rodan lit and you're trying to get that at the same time like that creates the excitement because then you create these layers onto it and it's just yeah it's a lot of fun that to me that's fun that's what makes it eny like like that gets me excited so okay so you guys you guys are good enough that you can stack I'm not I'm not stacking anything I just you're good enough you just so you're you're talking about just a specific mode like single ball or something like that well I just think there's a lot of mod out there follow the path Joel I yes but there's a lot of modes it's like you could explain the mode like oh you're going to see a bunch of lit lit shot just hit the lit shots I get I get it but I think some modes tell a story more than others like um I mean Labyrinth Labyrinth has the bog mode where it's you if you hit a green shot you're that's it like you got to hit everything but that and and there's some there's like a story associated with that where it's like all of a sudden I I'm not it's not only do I have the shots I hit I better not hit the other things and it's I just and and it's because you can turn on a setting that if you hit a green shot every switch hit for the rest of the game is gonna be a fart sound like it's so dumb and but at the same time I loved it um even like ebra ebra in in Godzilla it's just Spinners but there's something about I I can ignore everything else in the game all I got to do is I got to rip each spinner there's so it just all of a sudden it makes me focus on something particular in the game and it feels unique compared to the rest of the game so it's a mode that I like to play then how do you feel like kind of getting away from modes but this is more or less just like a feature how do you feel about Solid State Games in which you hit the first inline drop Target and it lights a spinner something like that does that get you excited to play it it's something I think what I'm realizing is a anything that makes me change my mentality of what I need to be focusing on at any particular moment so like that spinner is valuable but if you hit the in line Target first now all of a sudden inline drop first now all of a sudden that that's all that matters is that spinner and I just and I gota and I want to hit a real clean shot on it because I want to I want to rip it and that's you had said fear the dark earlier um yeah you hit a purple shot and then it's like okay this is my one chance at hitting that spinner but I want it to be clean because I want it I want to rip that spinner um right there's just modes like that that stand out and unfortunately I'm not trying to be rude with stranger things or Lonnie but it's like there wasn't a mode in that game that I was like oh yeah like I'm excited like I got this one if I was excited it was because it was an easy mode that I could just get through quicker to get on to the next thing um yeah I well I think some of it too is is if you're coding a game I think you're going to be it's difficult to code around certain layouts as well so if you look at something like stranger things it's you know a fan layout that has a bash toy up the middle so a lot of code is going to go into with that under consideration then you take for instance something like Foo Fighters right it allowed for them to look at okay what do we want to do with this captive ball up here by the UFO and just make it go around the switch do what is it the UFO tractor beam what do we do with this kicker that's facing away from the player that they can't hit on their own but it might hit it and kickback up right so they got I forget what that mode is that's with it or the feature that gets started the with the lightning bolts and all that I just I can't think about the top of my head but there's stuff like that that happens and that happens in the background right it's not something that you can necessarily do skillfully until it gets lit and it starts going so I don't know I I think that that's part of it that there's only so much that you can do with a uh with a fan layout because look at how attack from Mars is or Medieval Madness yeah you know it's very much hit the same shots over and over and over again to get to something or to do something else to have some type of a feature that can start or stack together uh yes and that's I don't know I just to me I think it's a great thing that separates a good game or a great game from an exceptional game is like we've talked about it before like don't ignore the first 10 minutes the first 10 minutes of a game is what people are going to be playing the vast majority of the time they're going to be playing that game so please be creative you know I hope modes are fun I hope modes are creative I know that was something we had like Labyrinth I thought some of the different modes the uet mode was really I just thought it was a fun mode like hit a shot and then you're gonna hit that same shot again but it's gonna it's gonna do something different um you're gonna experience that game in a different way well that's what I liked about Hot Wheels from American pinball hitting the targets up front over and over and over again the red line and then you could boost up future modes or whatever future battles in it so stuff like that that the risk reward of knowing trying to go for something to start something so it's like a mini multiball that's at the beginning of the game if you hit it enough so something like that's pretty cool um I like modes that are in the middle of your journey towards something for instance Cherry Min wizard mode yeah Cherry Cherry Bomb on Guardians it's pretty sweet but that's something to look forward to like that's a like right you don't experience it or at least a player like myself you don't experience it every time you play the game but once you get there it's exciting and that's yeah Jaws rescue multiball search multiball like those are those are those are something to look forward to to enjoy when you get there yeah and and a lot of it is too it just goes into how can a coder differentiate the modes from each other right so you take uh Walking Dead for instance Lyman code which is really fun to play I think an awesome Nuance with that and we've seen this from time to time with other pins as well but I think a cool Nuance with this particular game is whenever you finish a mode right you can use that same mode shot to boost up the values to other modes in the future so something like that is pretty cool you can like and they all feel different like the way CDC Works in terms of building that up and shooting the other shots for a massive payoff at the left ramp much different than say just Arena where you got to hit the right ramp which is hard to hit or much different than tunnel to where you hit it once or you can hit it twice to really build up the value of the shots that go all around so I I think just a lot of it is is how creative can somebody that's doing the software be with whatever the layout is it's just like we talked about pul fiction the other day right super simple layout yet there's some interesting things in there the fact that you can't stack everything so you have to kind of pick your lane where you want to go and how you want to attack it from there I I'm with you Tom do you have any modes that uh I here I'll set one on that like rush rush has some really some fun modes a lot of all every one of them there there's nothing wrong with rush there's not a bad mode I will say I was so upset though when they stopped the uh the building or the infinite build whatever the records oh and my game updated on its own yeah unless you're Andy Bagwell and you took your card out dude he's the only one with with that code I offered him my firstborn child for that game and he's like nope never selling it Dam you like the old code that much that it's it's that much better oh yeah because you could do the record build on it it it allowed for a different way to play the game right so your records you could build up so much to where you could just make the most boost your score up quite to just puke points and it's not like you would do this in a tournament you wouldn't do this you know and anywhere else really other than just for funsies on location or in your own basement or your own game room it was just a unique way to play the game that I just I got to where like I understood where all the modes were at and how to play it the the drum bonus all that but I wanted to do something different so I was just challenging myself to see how long I could keep the ball in play Keep building it up I wanted to get it as high as possible and then just have massive cashins and payoffs and that I was finding that to be a lot of fun and then when the code switched I told myself I was going to take my game offline and then I just completely forgot and one day I came in and I saw that it was changed I was just like damn it I was so disappointed with myself yeah it's just little things like that I mean but we all get joy out of games in different ways sure you know just like just like you talked about Joel like what what type of mode do you want to be able to play at the beginning of the game do you like games to where the mode is available as soon as you plunge something like guard or do you like to earn it and then start playing it I don't mind earning it when it's when I feel like it's earnable um I just like like I do know like my dad I don't know if my dad's played a battle in Godzilla yet I mean two ramps and a and a scoop the scoop's the Heart part uh and I think we've talked about that before but for me and my my brother I mean my brother's uh okay I mean he's a good player but not an exceptional player but he can start pretty much any mode on a on a modern fball machine um I do like I I like it when you can control what mode it doesn't necessarily have to be a you you shoot the scoop and pick your mode but if you give me a Target or a spinner or something that I can hit where I could change the mode i i a fan of that I know like stranger things the way you change mode is the pop bumpers so you shoot the shot back there and hope you know you hope to it's like a lottery like what am I getting um I didn't love that but um but yeah there's there's a lot of modes I mean some modes that stand out to me a lot are uh the soul gy mode on Avengers I know that's not a mode that's like kind of a mini wizard mode that the The Limited number of flips is such a unique way to play the game I loved that Rick and Morty had a mode where it was uh the guy's arm uh Rick's arm is no Morty's arm is really big so I think it's like the left flipper you only get so many flips like that's a such a unique mode um so any mode that makes me that really brings that theme immersion um kind of tells a story um or just or the game all of a sudden you're playing the game in a very different way um I I'm a I'm a big fan of that and I think some games do it better than others did you ever do the rush wizard modes to where the flippers would be inverted and everything I didn't I think those are challenge modes now but I I mean I never got there when I had the game but um and I they weren't challenge modes yet but I I know I experienced that like uh what is in Simpsons when I had pinball party mystery the what is it mystery something um what's the comic book mode it was whatever it is one of the modes would invert the flippers and oh gosh Raymond's probably yeah yelling at us right now I think it's m mystery get all the uh two x's and all the shots I don't remember that's not what we're talking about right no Alien Invasion is great Al like alot oh yeah you're right yeah uh don't remember I can't think of it there's some I mean there's some amazing modes out there in a bunch of different games I just to me what I realizing what about that one that's good rush I don't mean to cut you off but that just like PE in that that is such a unique theme right there the fact that the lights Fly by Night multiball on Rush that the lights are dimming out the more switches you hit and jackpots and all that and you got to make the lights come back on to me that is cool I think something like that when you can play around with what's going on out there physically on the Playfield with the light show and all that and you're actively changing things based on that I think that's that's really rewarding and that's pretty cool to see yeah I just think yeah I just to me you know you can say a lot about the creativity of a layout or a really fancy Mech or uh you know movie clips on an LCD screen anything like like to me the things that stand that are the more and more of the things that are standing out in the game to me of importance are the layout because that doesn't change you I I want to play a game where where the shot feels fun every time you hit it um I and then sound because the sound is always on you got to hear like I want good sound but then modes like I just want those simple things the simple the step one of 10 that you're GNA play over and over and over again I hope they're fun because that's that's at least at my play level that's what you experience way more than the mini wizard modes are definitely the final wizard modes um so no pressure to all the designers out there but just make your games fun that's all I'm ask just make them I'm sure they're already trying I don't doubt that Tom are there any modes that that stand out to you or um I don't know like early game accessible things name a game okay like Guardians is there a mode and Guardians that that you love uh I like Quill's Quest because you get the multiball uh no like I don't Foo Fighters how about that Foo Fighters what's a mod New Orleans you hit Orleans hit each Seattle it just kind of like goes across and comes back uh I like let's go old school what about creature Creature from the Black oh move your car yeah it's pretty sweet actually you know what that is Joel have you played that one before I have played you know creature but do you know what move your car is I don't you want to tell him Tom uh it's when you shoot the ball up the middle repeatedly and then guy pops out and says move your car and then you have to uh hit the middle shot again uh four times it's like a hurry up value so okay and I don't know if you're actually moving your car or if it's just you just pissing them off even more cuz you're just then eventually he like tries to blow up your car with a rocket launcher yeah normal stuff at a drivein yeah um I think you guys get into a fist fight too eventually too I will say um venom venom doesn't have modes but they do have battles and some of the battles I actually really had a lot of fun on maybe it was just because the the the way the the sound changed or the theme like some of those I don't the dragon was what's the dragon's name um n is the bad guy grindle that guy man because he'd invert your flippers he'd mess with you there you go that was that was a pretty frustrating but fun uh uh fun fun experience but that's deeper in the game that's kind of you feel like you were actually in a battle I did oh I absolutely felt like I was fighting the game uh I mean Black Knight Black Knight there was a few um few of the creatures that I enjoyed battling more than others um but I I get it there's no probably something that I like like well you just flight Icarus was the perfect example that was my least favorite mode but that was the mode that you said was your favorite so have you tried to do a 2X with it I was just trying to complete trying to hit the ram I was just trying to complete it that's all I was trying to do you know not stack anything build up a I don't build up values I just it's not a we're GNA get you we'll get there we'll get there we're gonna get you there okay other things other things um we're gonna shift into some tournament talk here um tournament settings I've been I've been what podcast is this I know right uh I read or see a lot of these comments in some of the chat that we're in and um it seems like it's a very common conversation amongst you tournament Players which is it sounds more and more like the fun of the tournament greatly depends upon how the games are set up or the overall difficulty of the games and it seems like uh it it must be a constant struggle of we need to set up the games difficult enough that when really high skilled players play them they don't play them for an hour because then it makes the whole tournament 18 hours but at the same time if the game is so difficult that nobody's having fun playing the game then nobody wants to play in that tournament that's true so we're GNA start with Tom Tom what are what are your thoughts I don't know like what's the happy medium like how do you where do you start what do you do I don't know how okay so I I think you need to I I think it just depends on who's playing in your tournament so um let's say it's a Stern pro circuit level tournament so you're you're probably going to have better players there so you probably want to set up the games where the the the if you move the game and when I say move the game I mean like put force on the game that it actually moves uh you're going to probably either get a double danger or a tilt [Music] um where I wouldn't go to like an extreme as like but but it depends on the game too um you know you physically touch the game with your hand and the game tilts out you know like like that that's where you're getting where things are getting a little [Music] too uh it's too for the player I guess I want to say but um yeah I I I think there's I think there's es and flows where you can make a game tougher yet enjoyable still I don't know I I to me I think removing rubbers off of inlanes and outlane posts are usually pretty standard in most of those events uh a little tighter til where you can actually try to save ball and maybe get a like you get one good move um on a game is acceptable but um yeah it it really just depends on the game because if we're talking like let's say we're talking Iron Maiden um you don't have to do a lot of stuff to Iron Maiden to make it tough it's I mean not I'm sorry Iron Man uh Iron Man's already tough as it is for a lot of people so you know maybe having a tighter tilt and uh you you don't have to fudge with the settings and stuff um whereas Rush maybe you have to fudge with the settings a little bit maybe have to make the the multiball harder to get uh the main one or you know that sort of thing sure but uh I I think some tournaments can take things two extremes um I don't necessarily think you have to remove post on a lot of games that don't need it uh like say Stars you know like I just don't you know stars is already a brutal game and I don't know if you've ever played Stars Joel I have yeah yeah I mean it's it's it's a game that definitely You're Gonna Lose the ball quickly um if you make any type of mistake and even even sometimes just hitting the spinner you're going to lose the ball because it's going to come down at a a funky way but um yeah I I think it just depends on on your players the games and and whatnot so you know um I think it's I that's a great answer I know um Nick Lane at Buffalo made a comment recently that he he feels um he feels like his favorite tournaments are kind of more these local local tournaments and it's just because like they don't brutalize the games and it's a smaller group and it's just like that's where he feels he can have the most fun um I Know Travis you guys just with the pinball company just recently ran a tournament and I know you were kind of experimenting around with this on that that game settings yeah game settings like I'll just say I am firmly in the camp that I do not agree with about 98% of the decisions in terms of making the software settings just super difficult like I I will never understand making software difficult and physical difficult at the same time I I think combining those two things together leads to a lot less fun I think it just makes games super wood choppy I think it just makes things super grindy and for me personally that's just not fun it's not fun to watch it's not fun to play now do I think that certain games need to be set up a certain way yeah of course according to what your player demographic is you don't need to set up crazy ass penberg settings for your local match play or something like that right and I get why somewhere like penberg or a Stern pro circuit event or IFA I understand why the settings are the way that they are right but I do think too I'm very much in the camp I would much rather see a game just with a difficult physical setup such as open outlanes or no rubbers or tight tilt or maybe the pitch is up or maybe even the pitch is down to make it play Super floaty and just super weird I don't mind that and I'd rather see that in play and then the software left the default so we can actually see the players play we can actually push action and we can see them progress into the game I I don't like like to me what what is the difference if you make the software super hard and the game plays super hard right and it's going to last the same amount of time or maybe even two minutes less compared to getting somebody to a multiball and letting them play a little bit longer I mean if that player to me if that player says yeah I had fun doing that and it adds on an extra 10 minutes per round I'm okay with that that's perfect like I would rather the players have fun I'd rather people enjoy it I know for a lot of people like who wants to travel across the country to go play in a tournament just to just get lit up you know in that way and I think the other thing too and this is just from watching enough tournaments enough tournament pinball over the years and everything I truly do believe that what happens is is if you make your games play very difficult software-wise and very difficult Hardware or you know Hardware at the same time right physical and software you do that what ends up happening the players that are just insanely world class skilled they gain an even bigger Advantage Advantage y a much bigger Advantage I think it makes the tournaments much less competitive because if you have an average player above average player then obviously skill is going to win out and skill should win out but you end up making it just insane imagine if you took all the grand Masters in chess right because you just get to a certain level then you're a Grandmaster right and they all said all right guys we're taking your queen away do you think Magnus is like oh [ __ ] I'm not going to win now you know what I mean you're just you're just making it easier on the people that are just world class top level 1% of the one % exceptional it's not a coincidence that you see the same young players just destroying the fields over and over and over again at these types of tournaments it's not a coincidence that's a big reason and as long as tournaments are set up like that that's what's going to end up happening right that's going to be the norm the exception will be if somebody happens to sneak in get a win it's not impossible but that's just the reality of it so I think for a lot of people out there is you have to decide which direction you want to go with it and how competitive you want to you want to make it right I mean it'd be like in baseball if the hitters are just crushing hitting the whole time we're like okay well we're going to move the mound up by two feet now because of that yeah there's probably five pitchers that were still dealing like crazy still throwing 100 to 105 unhitable but now they're going to be two feet closer because you know you know what I mean it just it makes it lopsided and I think that's what we're seeing l so I I just would much rather see something competitive I would much rather see that if a player happens to have a long game so be it at least it's entertaining because they're getting deep into the modes they're doing stuff they're doing something skillfully it's a lot it's a lot more fun seeing them do that than see them aim after the same shot 10 times in a row just to start one multiball that begins with two second ball save like that to me that's not fun to watch but I get it like I would rather see them hit that three times and then have the two second ball save but at least they got there and then they could see what they do with it so stuff like that I much prefer like no ball saves I'm all four I I agree with the no ball save thing now with multiball I kind of like taking five seconds or half the time off that way you can kind of spray a little bit but then you have to get under control quickly and then you do let skill take over from there once you don't have you know once you don't have ball saves on so I think that's just that's just where I'm at on it I know there's I will say the vast majority of players that I've talked to that play competitive much prefer that they prefer software to be left alone the games can play hard if they play hard they want to feel like they're at least getting through the game and that's why I love indisk now they make certain adjustments like for instance on Deadpool schnick is gone you can't get you know your Playfield multiplayer but guess what everything else is pretty much close to the start button and I get if there's slight adjustments made to maybe it's like one extra shot or two extra shots okay so be it my preference would be don't do that at all make the game play hard but allow me to get through it allow me to play the modes or have a chance to play modes or something like that that's just it's just more fun it's more entertaining and I think it just makes for much better much better viewing and competitive pinball I mean that's why I enjoy watching classic tournaments because you know everybody's going to have a chance to do the thing and you're trying to watch them do the thing it's not just a battle just holding on for dear life unless you play Quicksilver at the Beast then that's hanging on for dear life but outside of that I mean you guys know what I'm saying that's just my preference so no I think I think that's a really good point I I'm not the tournament player I don't have the ton of experience here but I do know just you know I was really surprised the one tournament you were at where you guys called me CU you're like you have a Turtles how do we get if the turt if Turtles is in hard mode how do we how do we get the multiball so it's when you start making these crazy software changes and now all of a sudden these expert players you know it's they're almost having to learn the game like what what can I do what has been adjusted like I I'm with you I think physical adjustments that even the playing field a little bit or just or shorten the ball time a little bit but you you had even talked about maybe it makes sense to make some of the adjustments easier maybe even like it's but and I did that yeah I did that for the hard tournament and it's I mean it so we had a side tournament in which the games were just set up physically super hard right a little bit tighter tilt not horrible just wide open outlanes just no you know no rubber so they did play difficult but we also toned down some of the settings to let people try to progress through the game a little bit and even in Maine that's pretty much what we did as well we left software alone and the only thing that we really changed was maybe making an outlane ball save super difficult like Max difficulty not lit at the beginning because then something like that that does prolong the ball because you just happen to get lucky to drain out the right outlane or the correct outlane right so adjusted leaving everything standard but then like maybe making the main malte ball a little harder to get I mean you could I I think I I've seen a lot of tournaments do that yeah I'm just firmly in the camp leave the multiball where it is and just make the ball save on the multiball a lot less so you know if somebody wants to go for it you go for it knowing you have maybe a 5 8 10 second ball save whatever it could be because some of these pens you look at they have 25 second ball Save which is a long ball save because these are pinball seconds too so yeah star Star Trek's probably like the worst one I've ever seen right so under those circumstances I definitely understand bringing it down but I think I like the idea of making them like to 12 seconds it gives you enough time to at least get the balls out of the shooter Lane right you get a few shots off and then after that I I do not like it when the ball saves done and the balls aren't even out of the shooter Lane yet yeah and that's no fun you know that's just I don't know and so I I'm very much picking my tournaments based off that but I understand why things are the way they are I mean we both played ifba Tom and the settings at IFA were totally reasonable they weren't unreasonable at all the pin played great they played fun the same with indisk it's been I mean Nationals was the same way you can set up games to where they play reasonable and it's understandable if you have to make certain changes but I just think for the vast majority of tournaments even if you're attracting high level players you don't have to go nuts because not everybody's going to step up and be johanes that's just not going to happen I think it just leads to just a lot more fun overall like nobody wants to play Pinball and feel like Joel after they plun wow wow all that and that's how you in that on the Other Extreme I don't want to see like playing a match play tournament the rounds last two hours on one game you know um yeah I you know and then the tournament goes till 3:00 a i that I don't enjoy either no and that go I think that goes back to the idea that I talked with you about before about doing a clock on tournaments I mean obviously tgp is like gone but I've just always wondered why can't we do it like chess why can't a player have their own play clock for the round or something and you're just like okay you've got 60 minutes total you know you clock in as soon as you plunge as soon as you drain better hit that clock to end your clock otherwise it's going to keep running but this is the allotment of time that you have to play with that way somebody that just happens to want to trap up and play Forever like you still have to be skillful you still have to hit your shots you still have to be efficient and accurate so well there could be extremes there you know somebody traps up and you know they're looking at their watch and you know okay I'll hit the shot and then you know because they're timed and they know like the next player behind them's waiting tapping their foot you know well no I'm not saying like like it's not 60 minutes just for every I'm talking about each individual you would have that so you'd have your own clock so if you happen to take your own time out then say like by the time you're playing game three you might be on a solid state but you only have 30 seconds left on your clock yeah the 30 seconds play three balls like good luck with that you know I I just think it just adds a different nuance and I mean we've seen that with baseball with their play clock yeah right the pitch clock and all that it's sped stuff up and it's kept stuff going you know and obviously this is probably a pie in the sky thought but it's just a way that I think that people could experiment at a local level if they're worried about their games or tournaments or whatever running for way too long maybe that's a way around it just to try something different to keep people engaged and not feel like you're just there watching one person play for one hour straight in your group honestly I I liked um when I and I'm not going this year I wish I was but um pinball at the lab last year you know they they had a set Target score but then they also had that 10 o'clock cut off time I think it was 10 o'clock so basically you know no rounds could start after 10 o'clock and then if there were people in the top 24 that didn't get to that Target score well then you know they just went with the top 20 24 um so so that the tournament wasn't going till 1:00 a.m. or 2 a.m. or whatever you know I like that's a good Nuance I I would rather just have fun and have a good time than worry about I have to play Max tgp I have to do that that's just where I'm at on things like yeah of course certif too but if you can do Max tgp within a certain allotment of time and it makes sense cool like if your format allows for cool but if you're trying to do it over like a one- day period to do 20 plus rounds and then 60 person finals the next day that that's a little tough um yeah speaking rounds and think Joel completing in time I agree I agree with what you're saying I just think I'm on the outside looking in I know I'm on the outside looking in watching and I EA for dinner Joel I don't actually let's talk about Joel dinner I think that's what we need to talk about I don't know what I'm supposed to eat for dinner but minutes so did your wife not tell you what you're having tonight like just a surprise no we do it's called like hungry roote or something so it's like a box and there's multiple meals so she just picked one of them to cook so I don't know which one she cooked it's great work hungry root I think it's called Hungry could be me something anyways unfortunately we do need to wrap it up um so we're going to do we're going to do some plugs but just a universal plug here papa Papa's Papa I know it's coming I think Tom you're streaming it I think so this was front page baby tell them Tom I was going to leave that as a surprise thanks Travis but uh yeah edit that out Joel I did apply to Twitch for the front page and they accepted by you just sent it a signed 8 by10 with you in your suit in the hot tub and that's does even need a hot tub Joel no hot tub need it no that's exciting my mustache so it was it's always good to see pinball on the front page and I'm excited for you in that moment because it it's literally thousands of people show up it's I'm not excited for me I'm more excited for for Papa and all all the people competing that yes it's going to get exposure and I will just suck up for Tom right now Joel real quick cuz Tom's too humble everybody out there knows that Tom has done a lot for competitive pinball and pinball in general the past several years he has busted his ass and I've seen him do it in person just unpacking everything putting all back up hauling it over there getting it set up and he's traveled all these different tournaments he's helped out a ton of people so I'm like I'm super stoked for him to be able to have this type of exposure because the reality is Tom without you none of us Knuckleheads playing competitive pinball even get to watch ourselves or see this stuff or anything like that so I think all of us are ex extremely happy for you I think it's it's awesome and I would tell anybody listening to this like be there watching papa supporting Tom supporting the players supporting the papa tournament itself and just enjoy the chaos that will ensue once that does happen because it will be a lot of fun it's a lot what is Jo if Joel if you want to play in it I'll buy your entry what day is it it's September what uh you well September 8th is the uh I believe is the Sunday joelie you're supposed to tell me these things before I know unfortunately I am Sunday September yeah 5th through the 8th is is the dates uh so yeah I'm out of town workp eth is the finals a work trip in Chicago for the no I wish I wish but that's awesome Papa that's awesome that'll be real I'm excited for time I'm excited for the tournament it should be a good time but um but yeah we need to plug it up so Tom keep plugging away man uh you can see me on Fox Cities Pinball stream on Twitch and YouTube Perfect Travis plug our podcast see me right here triple drain pinball podcast on the tpn YouTube Network and all that and then I have that other YouTube channel too with my company the pinball company you can watch that too after you watch Tom's stuff I like pball and then maybe after my stuff you can watch Joel's stuff too or maybe you can put all three up at the same time I don't stuff yeah my stuff uh uh flipping out pinball The Flipping Out YouTube channel Jared and I stream every Wednesday night uh awesome streams yes we'll probably have a chatting stream this week maybe we were really hoping for a game reveal today that didn't happen uh so I don't know next this weekly be we may be playing some we may be chatting but check out the fliping Out YouTube stream I've also been doing some pinball tutorials with the games that Zach was letting me borrow so those have been fun to make um so you can check out all the stuff there but um no sorry it took so long to record this one uh feel free to in the comments or Facebook us let us know what your favorite modes are in pinball or um let us know what we're wrong about all the tournament directors that are upset about everything that Tom and Travis just said tell us why we're wrong um all the good things 95% of them agree with Tom and I guarantee you all right well like always Tom you get the last words later

high confidence · Joel states he got rid of Deadpool because 'Deadpool had no challenge modes' and says having a speedrun/challenge mode would have made him reconsider

  • “if Deadpool had a speedrun to it there was nothing there was... would that be something that would entice you to keep it... I would have thought about it a lot more”

    Joel@ 26:52 — Concrete example of how lack of challenge mode features directly influenced buying decision; shows game design impacts collector retention

  • “don't include me in this don't don't Tom didn't do anything wrong it was you were the producer you started it without telling us”

    Travis (during opening technical chaos)@ 1:59 — Humorous insight into show production dynamics; establishes that Joel often starts recording before hosts are ready

  • American Pinball
    company
    Chicago Gaming Company (CGC)company
    Jawsgame
    John Wickgame
    Godzillagame
    James Bondgame
    Deadpoolgame
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Carrie Hardyperson
    Dennisperson
    Tonyperson
    Nickperson
    Kevinperson
    Funhousegame

    high · Travis: 'the ones that are out there right now they've all proven they can get it out so until they prove otherwise I think all those manufacturers that are currently out there are trustworthy manufacturers'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Jaws: The Revenge mode designed with minimal reliance on LCD; players can understand gameplay flow from physical inserts alone, supporting casual play

    medium · Joel asks 'how well does this game the new mode convey what to do or how to do it without looking at the LC like does do the inserts like is it pretty easy to understand' — Tom says 'kind of kind of'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Stern's speaker light kits represent hardware/software integration trend enabling topper effects to sync with speaker lighting in real-time during gameplay

    high · Tom: 'the new code has new topper effects which reflect in the speaker lights so I think it's awesome I think it's so cool that Stern's doing it'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Haggus failure highlights critical vulnerability in capital-dependent manufacturing model where companies use pre-orders to fund R&D and production, creating debt spirals

    high · Travis discusses R&D costs and daily operational losses: 'every day you're not making machine all you're doing is losing money... it just um I mean one of the guys on car's video basically said um you know time is Time's what's going to kill you'

  • $

    market_signal: Market converging around established manufacturers (Stern, JJP, Spooky, CGC, American Pinball) with proven delivery; new manufacturers face significant consumer skepticism

    high · Joel and Travis both emphasize importance of buying from companies 'that have proven over years at a time' and explicitly endorse established manufacturers as trustworthy

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Challenge modes and speedrun modes increasingly valued by players for replayability and streaming/casual play variety; absence of challenge modes influences purchasing decisions

    high · Joel: 'if Deadpool had a speedrun to it there was nothing... would that be something that would entice you to keep it... I would have thought about it a lot more'; discusses using challenge modes for short play sessions

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern speaker light kits incompatible with upgraded speakers (5-inch LE speakers); forced customers with premium speaker setups to wait for separate LE kit release

    high · Joel: 'the kit right now they advertise the kit as Pro and premium what they should be saying is this is a kit for 4 in speakers... if you if you have upgraded your speakers to a 5 in speaker... this kit that is the same speaker that's in an LE that's what Tom's used to'

  • ?

    community_signal: Zach Sharpe's decision to make Haggus customers whole viewed as trust-building measure that likely retains customers despite absorbing financial losses

    high · Joel: 'good on Flipping Out for for making anybody that had a deposit with him whole I mean sure he's the one that had to take the hit but luckily I hope he really earned some buyers out of that or some respect from like okay well he he protected me once I'm going to keep going through them again'