you're listening to the head-to-head people podcast find us on facebook email us at Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 88 and my name's Martin and with me... Josh R. And Scott R. And Martin R. So, is that really... What is it? Are we turning this into Pirates now? What's going on? Yarr! So, Scott and Josh, who are you? So, I am Josh Roop and with me is Scott Larson. We both have teamed up to make the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. It's something we just did as a pet project a couple months ago, and it's actually taken off. So we're just keeping up with what's going on. Yeah, do you know what? I've obviously listened to all your episodes, obviously, and I do encourage everybody to do so. Do you know what? I tell you what was really interesting is that my time is pretty poor at the moment, so I don't really get to listen to all that many podcasts. If I do, I listen to them on 1.5 or 2 times speed. but I tell you what was really interesting when I was listening to the last couple of your episodes is and I usually listen to them in the car I actually noticed that as I'm driving I'm physically nodding as I'm agreeing to everything that you say and the reason why I like that and I just had this moment where I kind of go these guys are really complimentary to the head-to-head podcast I think your style is quite similar in that you're going through certain points and you're discussing your opinions, not always agreeing but always having, you know, sort of different views, but I think it's really high quality. The conversations are great and the points you make are sort of adding to the dialogue of the conversations that you're talking about. So I just wanted to say well done. I think your podcast is awesome. Well, thank you. I really, really appreciate that. We just are two guys trying to get on a microphone and BS. So I'm glad it's being received well. I'm glad that people are following along and enjoying it. I think it's also that when I've tried to approach podcasts, I mean, I've guested on a few podcasts before, but nothing as my own podcast or Josh's podcast. However, I've always felt when you go into like morning DJ, it feels a little manufactured. And the way that I like listening to podcasts is, hey, this is me calling a friend, and this is us just having a conversation, because otherwise it really sounds manufactured and it sounds like you're just putting on a show for drama or for anything else. And so I like that it comes across that way. It's, hey, it's two guys just sitting and talking as opposed to, hey, we want the big spectacular presentation. And like you said, Martin, I think the other thing too that we're aiming for is we want to be constructive criticism. We don't want to be going out there. You get a lot of other podcasts that yell at these pinball companies and tell them this sucks, that sucks. We want to come at a point of view that's like, yeah, this is what can be improved, but this is also what's great as well. Yeah, a good balance. I think on your last podcast, you were sort of talking about head-to-head and all the other podcasts. And I think the point you made is that, and I guess it's probably with us in particular in mind, is that the bigger that we've become, the more critics have come our way. That's probably just natural because of the amount of reach that we have. The more people listening, the more likely you are going to come across critics. And I think the point you were making and I make to you as well is that we do this off our own bat. It's just, it's a bit of fun, and if people listen, that's great. If people are critical, we also take that criticism on board as well, as long as it is constructive. But, you know, it's just a bit of fun. Oh, I totally agree with you. And honestly, if it wasn't for you, Martin and Ryan, I wouldn't be doing this because I made that little six-minute intro and I sent it off to you guys and I sent it off to Zach Many because I feel like you two are the most professional when it comes to the pinball podcasts in the industry. So I figured if I could get a good opinion back from you guys and you guys gave me the thumbs up, then it was actually worth something. So thanks for creating us. I appreciate it. I've got to be really honest. When you did send the link, I kind of just in my head just went, okay, here we go, another podcast. You know, it's, you know, I've got this sound so patronising, but it was kind of like I knew I was going to listen to it and go, oh, you know, well done, congratulations, you know, cheers to the little guys. Honestly, I know that sounds so wanky, but when I listened to it, and before I gave you feedback, Ryan and I had a chat as well, and I just listened to it and I went, hang on, this is actually really good. The way you speak, the points you were making, the quality of the audio as well. I went, yeah, hang on. Bloody go and do it. This is great. It's not that we need more podcasts. We just want really good quality podcasts. I think it's good to have a variety, and that's the beautiful part about, I guess, the explosion of online media is that really you're not being shoved into this preformed matrix of there's only room for four or five. You can now pick and choose. If you like this style, if you don't like this style, great. Move on. You have the ability to select what you do with your time, and that certainly opens up. Certainly, we hope that we'll get better over time and get more efficient at it, but, hey, we're still just cutting our teeth. Yeah, well, I think out the gate straight away, I think you're already advanced, so that also probably sounds a bit patronizing, but it's not meant to. It's like I think that you're just one of the great podcasts already, and you're only seven episodes in, so well done. Well, thank you. We really, really appreciate that. It means a lot. Well, on saying that, here's something I want to read out to you because I thought this was funny. And this is how I was actually going to introduce this episode. But I'll read it anyway. So this is on Pennside. So this is some feedback that we got from our last podcast, which was with Levi and Greg, which was a freaking awesome, awesome podcast. And as you know, it took me a lot of time to edit. But here's what somebody wrote. best podcast in several weeks so great to hear Ryan sleep back in the saddle if only for a while so I kind of like that because it's like really what you're saying is that the podcast leading up to that have been shit this year so I appreciate that wow wow yeah it was a nice backhanded compliment so I do like that but also the reason why I want to point it out is like guys don't fuck this up you know we finally got a really good episode out you guys have now got to keep that standard up so no oh oh wow wow yeah i i'm not as funny as levi um i i do i i told you that he is my new spirit animal that i love his his wit and i just only hope to be that funny yeah well you know we don't we we just do a podcast whatever comes out comes out and let's let's just let's just talk and see what happens it'll be fun anyway what's funny to me is when we met you a couple weeks ago, you told us we couldn't come on unless we dropped some F-bombs. Scott and I are so out of character with that. We don't ever swear that much, so it's just like, you might get a damn out of us. That's it. That's all we expected. I have an 8-year-old, a 5-year-old, and a 4-year-old, and basically, you know, things like the F-word and the F-word is stupid and fart. Okay. I know who's standing where we're at so far. But look, as you said, look, I did catch up with you guys. God, it seems so long ago, but really, what was it? Three weeks ago, maybe, we caught up in Salt Lake. It was two days after the Texas Finball Festival. Yeah, it was. And a couple of things I wanted to talk about just with that, besides the fact that it was a great night, and obviously, Josh, you drove three hours to come and say hi, which was great. But leading up to that, and I promised, I promised I'd give him a big shout-out, But your friend as well, Lee. So Lee organised for me to get from Ogden, which is, you know, so far away from Salt Lake, to his place, which was halfway between Salt Lake and Ogden. And he organised an Uber. Like, pick me up with an Uber. I was just like, who does this? Who actually would say, right, I'm organising an Uber? I was like, I'm happy to pay for it. And he's like, no, no, no, no. I insist I'm going to organise an Uber for you. I just thought that was kind of cool. So, and then obviously I got to his place and then we drove into Salt Lake and I don't know, it was just this kind of like, you know, catching up with an old friend. As soon as we stood there, you know, and greeted each other, it was like pinball, pinball, pinball, pinball, pinball, pinball. And then when we got to kiddos, it was like, let's talk more pinball. And it was just kind of like we'd always known each other and it was just like a weekly catch up. We all got together and just talked about pinball. Well, that's the wonderful thing about Lee too, is he's just really casual. casual. The funny part to me is if he had offered, he's like, I opened a tab, go get what you want. We're like, of course, you're going to invite the three guys that don't drink alcohol to drink on your tab. No, I was really happy when Lee volunteered to do it. Lee's just a great guy. He's been doing great things for us as well. Okay, wait, hold on. I didn't know there was an open tab. Otherwise, I would have got way more drinks. I know Well I knew that there was an open tab But it was the beer which I don't drink So Yeah and there's only so much soda I can have Yeah Well and what's funny too is what we said We said well who brought you And Lee's like I brought Martin And then we all looked at each other and went So then who's going to take you home Because we know it's not Yeah Lee is from the military And he certainly can drink anyone under the table Yeah Well, he did, and he dropped me all the way back to Ogden. So, you know, it was just awesome, right? And that's kind of, I wasn't expecting, I was very humbled by the fact that you guys would go to such an effort, and I think that's really good. That's kind of what the American pinball scene is. It's just like the Australian pinball machine, the Australian pinball scene. Pinball people are really good, except when they go on forums. Oh, oh my gosh. I'm just going to I'm just going to I'm just going to Levy here Where he said You know what Talked about Yelp reviews He's like Have you listened Have you read any Yelp reviews People are morons And I feel that When you get on Pinside It's like I thought that you would Have a normal conversation And I didn't realize They issued a flamethrower With everybody Who wanted to join Pinside Yeah Because It just seems like Everyone's roasting each other And it's like Wow Where is this coming from I know. And, you know, I went to TPF and met a lot of people. People are not like that. I think that... No. It just... I don't know. The human side of it is lost when you're just typing things, and that just sort of becomes flame wars, just by people taking it the wrong way sometimes, I think. Yes. Well, I think that certainly something that could be intended as a joke, people are like, is he kidding or is he being a jerk, you know? Yeah. Well, and obviously there's some disconnect also between the keyboard and what's on the screen, because I've seen total conversations that got blown out of proportion that guys are like, that's not what I meant, like you're reading it. The problem is we don't have inflection in our keyboards, right? That's what we need to have. Well, I don't speak New York and Boston, so, you know. Well, shall we get into some news? And I don't know if anything really exciting has happened this week or certainly two and a half hours ago. No, not at all. I just kind of wish things would just open up and they would just stop, you know. Stop holding back, you know. Give us something to bite on. Give us some podcast content, guys. All right. Let's talk about it. The big one is Wonka. Two and a half hours ago, Wonka was revealed at the Midwest Gaming Classic show. and it was Buffalo Pinball that streamed. The first thing I just want to talk about with the stream was they started the stream, I can't remember who it was, but someone was doing a bit of a speech, a bit of a background. They then passed to Pat Lawler, who talked about how proud he is of the machine and was like, okay, right, we're ready for the reveal. They grabbed the curtain or whatever it is over the machine and then the stream cut. Oh, yeah. Yeah, what was up with that? Well, not only that, though, too. Like, all these people are yelling through chat, get on with it. We don't want to hear about Woz. I'm like, holy crap, guys, calm down. Like, this is, holy crap. Show some respect. And we'll talk about the Black Knight stream later as well. But the same thing happened when, you know, they started the introduction, and even though they had showed the machine, Tim Sexton was going through the rules, and people were like, play the game, play the game. It's like, come on. I know you're excited, but show some respect to these people that have spent years putting this together. They want to talk about how proud they are. You will get to the machine. I also then understand we are so freaking excited. Like, it was 10 a.m. in the morning here in Australia. I've been up since 5 o'clock this morning just because I've been so excited waiting for this, right? So I know we're all desperate. and the worst possible thing could happen when they go to finally show the machine the stream. And, yeah, it just dies. Yeah. Well, you know, okay, I will say, though, in defense, though, this shows that there are passionate people. And it would be one thing if they're like, yeah, okay, whatever, move on. In many ways, I think this is what works. They build the hype. They may or may not leak some information about it to kind of build up a momentum for leading up to their big reveal. And so I understand the excitement. And so I guess it's kind of double-edged. I think it's fun that people are excited about a $9,000 box of lights. I mean, really. It's great. When you put it like that, it actually is. And what was also interesting was that the Black Knight stream, I think it was Wednesday our time, which was streamed by Dead Flip, you know, Jack the Tanker. When I looked at the peak, it was at about, you know, I think 2,600 viewers and I was like, wow, that's pretty amazing. Do you know what the Willy Wonka one got to? I saw nine and a half. Wasn't it? Yeah, nine and a half thousand people watching a pinball machine revealed. Exactly. Well, I did a screen tap when it was over 10,000 thousand and I think the highest I saw was ten and a half thousand viewers that's how much people are wanting to you know well I think that this is the people that are affected by that the hype hype sounds a bit negative but just the lead up to this there's so much anticipation here it is and and I think probably also the difference was with Black Knight you had already seen images so you saw what the place would look like with this and what is really remarkable about this i think is nothing had been shown leading up to this there were some leaked images a while ago of you know some of the side art but there was nothing leaked with the playfield and we also know that people had gone into the jersey jack factory and had seen this machine and still there was nothing so So at 10 o'clock today or 7 p.m. Central, I think it was, your time, we hadn't seen anything. So I think everybody was seeing for the first time. And so I think that's why you get 10,000 plus viewers. Oh, I totally agree. Absolutely. Well, I don't think it's insulting to call it hype. I mean, that's the whole point of building a marketing machine, right? The marketing strategy is saying, hey, we have something really cool coming. and, you know, as opposed to just like, yeah, we're going to release this and no one really knows about it. This is what builds the momentum so they can actually sell these games because you can't build the next game until you sell the last game. Well, I think also, though, too, is like, this argument that we've been having for months now about an original theme versus a theme title, that could really weigh into this conversation a lot because Black Knight, I would argue, had just as much hype versus Wonka because of how the way Stern had did it and they had a longer time to kind of push it. But it's insane that 10,000 and a half views versus two and a half. I mean, they could all come back to theme. Who knows? Like everyone's been saying, Wonka is a timeless theme. Same with Wizard of Oz. You're going up against Black Knight, which is really only known by pinheads and people that played a lot of arcade games maybe in the early 80s, early 90s. late, you know, early 80s. Yeah. Okay, but casual people are not logging in to see this. I mean, this is, these are pinball fanatics. This is the entire pinball community. Yeah. It's 100%. Everyone is there. Well, when you think about it, what, Pinberg has 1,000 people, and we had 10 times that looking at a reveal of a pinball machine. Yeah. I also think this has got to do with the fact that, You know, Stern do a release every three to four months these days. Jersey Jack, one a year, if that. So I think that those people that are fans of Jersey Jack and what they do and, you know, if that's what they're seeing to be pushing the product forward from a feature and quality point of view, I guess, or even like an experience. So I think because they're only doing this once a year, it has a bigger deal than something that's done every three months. well I think also that when you're talking about the car analogy I mean Stern is at least in America there's Ford there's Chevy these are high volume manufacturers and then occasionally you get a luxury release of a car and so yeah you're going to get a little more buzz and we've said that Stern is the dependable one it's the one who spits them out as much as possible but then you have Jersey Jack which is But, you know, it's more of a luxury brand. And so people are more curious. They're saying, okay, what is the high-end version of pinball going to look like? Yep, I would absolutely agree with you. And so then what do we know so far about the machine? What did you see and what are your first impressions? My first impressions? Did the Oompa Loompa fall off and go down to the middle of the plate filter? Yeah, the Oompa Loompa did fall off. That was a little bit embarrassing, but it's just... Yeah, I know, yeah, I know. Well, really quickly, though, the first thing that Jersey Jack made very clear, before they even pulled the cloth off the game, was this is $1,000 cheaper on our standard because we want to become competitive and get these games into arcades. Yes. So that's the standard. So the standard is $7,500. That's retail price, U.S. dollars. And there is something that it's missing. But, you know, for a standard, and it looks pretty full-featured, that's a reasonable price, I'd imagine. Oh, I totally agree. I would say. And it's basically like a Stern Premium. You're kind of in the Kapow version of Stern at that price, but I think you can reasonably put something like that on location without feeling that it's a major loss. Well then do you think about the theme In that context Being in an arcade Do you think that the theme Is going to compel people to put Money into it Compared to you know Like a An Iron Maiden Monsters all the stone titles How do you think the theme compares I think that it's a timeless theme In that Willy Wonka will draw people I don't see it the thing. I operated for a little while and I speak to a lot of operators and one of the top games is Star Wars. Just by default because people gravitate towards it being a theme. I think Willy Wonka is one of those other themes too. I think when you've got a random location like a bowling alley and stuff like that, when I talk to those people, they say it's the older gentlemen that walk up to it and they start flipping it because they remember it from their youth. And so I really think Willy Wonka will have some good draw a lot more than dialed in, that's for sure. I think that Josh is kind of nailing that, is that really you're capturing a demographic of people who remember this, and they come back to the child. Martin, you and I grew up in an era when the arcade was the thing to do. That was exactly what you did. You went and you played in an arcade. So those things are going to pull back and say, oh, this is what I think. and, you know what, I'm familiar with this theme. Let's see what I can do. So you don't actually have to go and look at a play field and try to figure out what's going on. You're going to say, oh, well, there's Noompa Loompa, there's Neverlasting Gobstopper. So you have this instant connection to the game. And really, if you think about it, this is exactly what Las Vegas is doing now. When you go through Las Vegas, every single slot machine is themed with something. I mean, whether or not it's Sopranos or whether or not it's, I don't know, Friends or, I don't know, Thunderbirds. Yeah, Ellen. Yeah, exactly. The Oprah pinball machine. Wow, that would be fantastic. I really want to see. You get a jackpot. You get a jackpot. You all get a jackpot. If she did the call-outs for it, I would buy it. But, yeah, that's exactly what they're doing is the reason why you're looking at themed pinball machines is because you buy that instant marketability or the marketing they've already put out into it. And so you have something to it. I think that you're going to find people who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s who remember seeing Willy Wonka as a kid. And, again, pinball is something they did as a kid. and it's like, oh, okay, I'll go and put something in. Really, that's exactly what Black Knight's doing too. Black Knight's pulling people in who remember playing Black Knight in 1980 or 1989. And just like I said on the last one, I ran into a guy at work who said, hey, I'm interested in a pinball machine. By the way, I used to own a Black Knight. So it's perfect. I get it. Well, I think J.D. Jack is certainly banking on the fact that this theme is going to sell as well as other features because they've said that there's three models, so the standard, the limited and the collectors. The standard is $7,500, limited $9,500 and the collector's edition $12,500. There'll be 500 collector's editions and 5,000 limited. Now, I think Jersey Jack was on record saying that Woz has sold 4,000 units. So if they're already saying that there's 5,500 numbered editions, plus you've got the standard which would be unlimited, that's shooting already for a big title. and before we go into the specifics about the game, just overall, now watching the video and, you know, having a sense of what it's all about, do you think that this title is the hit that they're hoping? I definitely think that it is. I think that this has now become their next ever green title where they always fall back on Woz. I really think that Willy Wonka is going to be the fallback title, especially now that you've got Eric Meunier's engineering design behind it you've got the genius of Pat Lawler on design so I think there's a lot of stuff that goes into this game that bodes well not only for the home market but operators have always tended to stay away from these because of the issues that you have if those have all been taken care of, I don't see why not why they can't sell 5,000 of these and not have an issue with it I also think that by doing the limited, people really in their mind with Jersey Jack, they think, okay, limited, that just means the higher end. It's a high-end version without the $12,500 price tag. So it has all the bells and whistles you want. and I think that they've realized with Wizard of Oz when they released The Limited and then they said oh well we really want to do this Ruby Red version and then oh we kind of sold out of that but people still want to buy it okay we'll do the Yellow Sparkle version so I think what they're doing is thinking oh we kind of made a mistake with Wizard of Oz in that it's a big hit but we really can't produce more than what we say we're going to, and so I think they're giving themselves a buffer. Yeah. And I think that's fine. I'm not one of those guys, and by me saying that, I actually have a few limited editions, but I got them because I liked the package that it came with. I have an X-Men LE, I have an Attack from Mars LE, Wizard of Oz LE, very customized Iron Man, very customized Tron, but I get it because I like the features not necessarily because I like the numbered plaque. So I think they're just giving themselves that margin that hey if they want to go back and keep making these people can still get that premium version that has all the bells and whistles except for the flying monkey. That is true and to side note on that my understanding is the reason why the monkey's not there because people are sort of like that sounds It's weird that we've got to pay $2,000 more. It's the new cabinet design. Apparently, the monkey just does not now fit there. So I think that... That makes sense. I think the trade-off is they've got now a much more reliable cabinet and all the electronics. So, you know, the sacrifice you make is you don't get a winged monkey, which I've sort of said it kind of looks cool, but it's so far in the back you don't really care after a while. And you've got a Woz, so you wouldn't really care. Well, okay. Well, now, I care because I just spent $200 on the Flying Monkey mod. Oh, she did too. She did too. Yeah, yeah, I did. And I have the Red Smoke Witch, which I both need to install. However, that's really me just trying to make the game as cool as I can. However, reliability can be an issue with any machine. And even on my Wizard of Oz right now, my upper play field, the doors, the left door is not opening. And so I haven't had a chance to actually troubleshoot that and fix what is going on there. I'm not sure if the motor's bad or if the set screw got unscrewed from the door and so it's not opening. So I totally understand. I really am in this. It's not that I have unlimited money, but time is more of a factor for me than money. and so if I have something that hey it's a high end toy that I can play all the time and I don't have to worry about it I get that and really reliability is a huge deal for me so if that was their trade off and serviceability I think it's fine well then do you think that overall Jersey Jack have now sort of overcome that reputation that they had for their machines needing a lot of fixes over time. I say that, prefacing it by saying that I've heard that Pirates has actually had some production issues, some QA issues. They've fixed everything now and there's been some parts that have been sent out to everybody to make some adjustments. But I don't know whether they've still got that rock-solid, I don't know, stern reputation. more so. What are your thoughts on that? Well, you mentioned Stern, and that's what makes me chuckle, because they were still having issues with their Iron Maidens. I remember when Tommy with Flippin' Pinball Podcast got his Iron Maiden, and not with even in a month that it was ghosting inserts, and he had to get a whole new playfield. I think the playfield was bubbling. It bubbled up, like where all the posts were, it actually was bubbling up the playfield. I have a video of that. It's crazy. But I think, going back to what you're asking, Martin, is, yeah, I think people aren't as concerned anymore with JJP and the reliability, just because that was one of the things they actually did push with Pirates, that pulling out the ship, the rocking ship, is held in by one screw. We're making it easier for operators to work on. and honestly the reason one of the reasons I don own a Waz is well first price but second is you got you don know if you going to get a machine that is upgraded to the new light boards A lot of people you have to put that in the description when you're selling the pinball machine because a lot of people stay away from those Wizard of Oz's and the Hobbits because of the issues that they had on early on in all those systems. Okay, I'll push back a little bit, though, is that with, like, Taylor from this Flippin' podcast has, like, a Ghostbusters, and he has a picture of the cabinet that is split. And it's a couple millimeters. I mean, it's not a trivial split down the side. And my friend who just bought a Guardians of the Galaxy, it was his first new in-box pin, went out to his house, helped him set it up, and he specifically asked, when was this manufactured? Because the later versions of Guardians of the Galaxy actually have a few tweaks that have helped them out versus the early version. And ironically, he was actually kind of not told the truth. He got it, and it was .66 code. He thought, huh, that's interesting. Turned out to be it was a year-old game as opposed to something that was manufactured in the last couple of months. So, I don't know. I guess my attitude with Jersey Jack is that it's high quality, but it's still buggy just like every other pinball machine. and really, if you go back to the car analogy, if you buy a German car, they are fantastically built and they're always kind of notoriously buggy. And to repair them costs a lot more than other cars because the parts just cost more. I know that only very recently because at the moment, as you know, I've got a German car, I've got a BMW and my boot won't open. So the boot lock, it just stopped working so I cannot open my boot. They quoted me yesterday $1,000 just to change the lock. Your lock on your car? Wow. $1,000. Well, that's $1,000 US. So what's that? That's probably, you know, $700 US. That's like $7,000 like Australian, right? Yeah. So that's what it is. You just exchange it for a Foster's and a kangaroo pouch and you're good. It's just inspired me to get a new car instead, which is just so irrational. but that's kind of like what we do with pinball. Like, you know, we expect as a hobby that there are going to be, we expect that there's going to be twigs required. We expect over time that parts are going to be replaced. Yeah, we hope that it's low cost and low fuss. That doesn't always happen. Like you're saying, though, like with JJP, I don't have to worry about replacing a $1,000 node board because I don't have fuses built into the system. So, yeah, up front you might be paying a little less for CERN, but you might have complex issues with no boards and stuff like that. I know they're resolving those issues, but like I said, I just have a rough time with the only game that I think you could really go after for being cheap all the way around is Thunderbirds. I mean, we all saw the video of him poking the ramp, and it was like water bottle plastic, you know? Okay, I will say, in J.J.P.'s defense, though, I did have a few. I have had a few issues with my WAWs, but I have always had fantastic customer support from them. They always get back to me very quickly with my door on the upper play field. I emailed, and I was going back and forth with Lloyd a little bit, and even Butch chimed in and said, hey, by the way, check this out. Here's the page of the manual to look at to do that. Like, I don't think Jody's emailing me from Stern. and so you know I think there is a level of commitment to what they're doing yes it's complex we all know pinball is hard but there is a level of commitment that I feel from JJP which is why I think we're all excited about it because it is a high end product well you know what it's an interesting point you make and we'll go back to Wonka in a second but I think if I think about and I know that there's a lot of companies out there right so I'm not going to be able to name them all But if I think about the successful companies, and really they are, for me the top three are Stern, JJP and Spooky. And I say that, I probably should say CGC, but one machine every couple of years, I don't know whether they've got the same sort of infrastructure. But I think the differentiator for these ones, why they've been successful, is it's their after sales support that makes or breaks a company. and the reason I bring that up is I know we've been talking about a lot of new companies that are starting up and probably Highway. I don't know whether this is trying to be a bit too profound but the early signs that Highway were having a problem was their after-sales support of their machines was terrible. You know, Full Throttle had some issues but after-sale was terrible. Alien had problems, after-sale was terrible. So was, dare I say it, so was America's Most Haunted. when that went into people's homes, it was riddled with problems. But their support was absolutely on it, and they would go to the nth degree to help people out. And, you know, I've had problems with my stern. The support I've had has been fantastic. I've obviously had problems with my Wizard of Oz. The support I've had is fantastic. They just want to do whatever they can to quickly rectify the problem. And these companies get judged by not the problem that's been caused, but how they resolve that with a solution. Well, I totally agree with you, Martin, because I bought an Attack from Mars remake, the LE, secondhand. And I was already, not that I was having issues with it, but once I got it home, I decided to do the dumb thing, which is go on to Pinside and see what everyone else is complaining about. And they pointed out all the plastics are cracking. The paint underneath the plastic on the Attack from Mars would actually do the crackling. And so I got a flashlight, and I'm checking it out, and I'm like, crap, it is crackling. What the heck? So I gave him a call, told him who I was. They said, yeah, we'll take care of it. And I said, well, we're right close to that warranty, and I'm the second owner. He's like, I don't care. Let's take care of it. So they sent me every new plastic on that game at no cost to me. And then they also got me, because the gentleman I bought it from never adjusted anything on that game, so it still had the old flipper ROM in it. And they had me get a hold of the local distributor because they had all the ROMs out to those guys. and he just sent me one out, I mean, I haven't had a lick of issues. And if I do, like the second I got Monster Bash, I got an LE on that one as well. I had a couple issues. I called them right up. They helped me over the phone. And I don't know. They're doing just as good, I think, in the customer service as JJP and Spooky and Stern, in my opinion. Yeah, well, I will also say, in Stern's defense, and I know I threw Jody out there, but Jody's not really doing it. However, George Gomez did reply to a comment I made personally, which I thought was interesting, like a nice one. And my Simpsons, I bought the Simpsons, and I heard this really loud, weird noise. And when I was playing it and I first bought it, I sent it off to them, and they actually emailed back, Stern did, and they said, yeah, it's the locker. You can go in and just adjust it. So how old's Simpsons? 2003. So I bought it 13 years later, and I asked them a question. And they're like, oh, yeah, here it is. Just go ahead and change the settings. So I agree with you, Martin. Any company that's going to be worth its weight is going to stand behind their product. And, yes, all three and four of those. I'd put the Chicago Game Company in that, too. There's a reason why I will continue to actually consider buying any of those games. Well, that's make or break. That's exactly right. And, look, I've obviously said many times that I'm terrible at fixing machines. So if I've got a level of safety or assurance that I feel buying a machine, then that's going to help me over the line, giving what is obviously a lot of money to these box of lights. Yeah, well, most people want to play their games. They want to play their $9,000 box of lights, this expensive toy. They don't want to – yes, there are people who want to tinker at it. But when people come over to your house, they don't want to watch you tinker on your game. They want to watch you play it, and they want to play it. Yeah, exactly. All right, so then let's just talk about overall impressions of Wonka. So the first thing probably to note that you see is the art. How do we feel about the art, which is being done by John Yancey, I believe? I think it's time to move on. I'm sorry. I'm not a huge... I enjoyed the overall artwork itself, but I just feel like it's almost too slot machine style. It's just too, I don't know. I'm not a huge fan of John Yowsey and his artwork on these machines anymore. I feel like Stearns upgraded their game with artwork so much that this just feels more cookie-cutter when it comes to Willy Wonka. You know, I see exactly what you're talking about. And again, I don't know about how constrained they are with licensing, things, so I'm going to give them a slight pass on this. The one challenge I have is that it's the same thing that Franchi had with Guardians of the Galaxy, and again, I'm sure this is what was dictated by the licensor, but I see Gene on the game in how many different places? I see him on about five different locations, it's the same pose. It's like exactly the same face. Yeah, you did on the L.E. with the side cabinet artwork. It's just Gene Wilder with his arms out. It's the same pose. It's the same face. And my question is, is there really no other thing in there that you can use? And so when you first look at it, you're like, oh, yeah, that's Gene Wilder. And you're like, oh, that's Gene Wilder. It's the same pose? Like, okay, fine. Oh, well, he's on the same pose. But, okay, I think it's solid, but I agree with Josh in that it does feel like it came out of Vegas. That's not bad, though. They make slot machines to make money, right? Yeah, it obviously works. Yeah. I'm kind of agreeing with you and I'm looking at the art so if you do go to thisweekinpinball.com by the way, just a couple of links, thisweekinpinball.com if you go to their website, they've got a big article on it it shows the art, shows all the different machines shows all the rules, so go and take a look it's an interesting one in that I think I really like the first thing I really like is the colour palette I think the colours that they've used are very vibrant they're very colourful but it's not unicorn vomit, right? It's actually a tasteful use of the palate. Something that we've mentioned a number of times is the use of, or what you do with, I'm going to try and sound like I'm all sort of out fancy here, but the negative space. So it's the stuff that's in between. What do you use to fill it? And with this, I think that they've used, I don't think they've been intricate enough with what's in between the picture of Gene Wilder on the middle of the play field and with all the inserts I think that you could have gone further with what you're doing to fill that in but I also think that's probably where you get too much kickback from the license holder that's like well hang on none of that that you're trying to do fits in with what we've done as an art style for 50, 60, 100 years. I don't even know how old the movie is. But that's where I think they come back and they say, we may like it, but you can't do it. Yes. I totally agree. That's the Black Knight where, you know, that artist is a tattoo artist. And so, you know, really intricate tattoo artists know how to work with constraints. They're on your arm, they're on your leg, they're on your face or whatever. they're working to tell a story in a confined space but this... Okay, it looks very nice. It also looks like it could be sold on a cereal box like a Cocoa Puff Pebbles or something. Lucky Charms or something. Which we don't have here but I did see when I was over there. So look, it's fine. I'll tell you what I did notice that when you turn the machine on and you look at the art and then you look at the inserts, the way they've used the inserts and the four-colour RGB on that did remind me a lot of Dialed In. Yes. Yeah. You know, I think Wizard of Oz, Hobbit and Pirates have a certain commonality when it comes to how they use the inserts. this reminded me so much of Dialed In and I was watching the chat as it was being revealed and that's what everybody was saying was it looks like Dialed In. The problem with that is you lose sight of the fact that it's got a completely different layout to Dialed In but all you can see is that it looks similar. Well, speaking also of the inserts the thing that kind of threw me for a loop when I was first watching the stream there's these little dots all over the play field And I'm like, is that actual the lighting above? And when they shake the machine, you can tell if it's lighting above or not. And it's part of the machine. And as I was looking through the This Week in Pinball write-up on this, those actual little cluster of dots that have no name or anything to them are your extra ball lights. I guess they're clustered in – there's four clusters of them. And so it's really weird to me when you've got these little tiny – I've never seen that on a pinball machine before, where you got these tiny, tiny, almost eraser head LEDs just clustered together in almost like 20, 30, 50, however many is clustered together. It looks really Swiss cheese style. I don't know. It's really weird to me that they did that. Well, it reminds me of like a home theater where, you know, if someone wants to customize their home theater and put all those like little teeny lights that are in the ceiling panel so it kind of looks like a starscape or something. That's what it reminded me of. And I will qualify what I said about the art is that I don't think that you can look at a Jersey Jack pinball machine and just look at the art without taking into account the light show because this is obviously kind of a light show integrated theme. And so really you're only seeing part of it by actually seeing the play field because it really is very dynamic compared to all the others. And I think that with those small fiber optic lights, it probably helps fill that, I guess, the blandness of the play field, because I think it's a little more dynamic when you have the lights. So when I saw this, I immediately thought, this looks like Dialed In and Wizard of Oz, and maybe a little bit of Twilight Zone had this weird love child. yeah I agree with you and I just think there's a disconnect between the colour palette that they're using for the inserts and the rest of the machine like if you're going to go for bright vibrant colours then I want the lights to either complement or be contradictory to that like almost like the opposite colour but still quite bright whereas they've got sort of nice sort of smooth colour shading through the inserts and I think I probably want more stuff that's more in your face. You want winter is coming from Game of Thrones? I'm not quite so bad, but... Anyway, so the other thing to note really then is just looking at it is the toys, I guess, or the moulds that they have. And the first one that stands out for me is what I'm assuming, because I haven't seen the movie in 100 years, is that the everlasting gobstopper? That's the thing that's... That is the... Yeah, that's the everlasting gobstopper. That's supposed to be the candy that never shrinks, but gives a whole bunch of different flavors. Yeah, it looks cool, and it spins around. It's kind of cool. And it sits on top of what I think is a cool lock mechanism, which is that sort of disc that sort of spins around to reveal the lock shot, and then spins back around, you know, like a rotisserie or like a record player to show the hole. I think that's kind of cool. That's right, man. It's 66. Oh. Oh, well, that's my... I said Rotisserie, so yeah, I'll take responsibility for that. No, I wasn't saying that bad. I think that it does have some elements of that, of a rotating thing on the playfield. I think it's a similar thing with Adam's family. Yeah, fair enough. What else do we see on the playfield as far as what's above the playfield? Well, you also have the Wonka vision, which seems to be channeling the theater from Dialed In. something along those lines, a giant LCD screen. Yeah. Also, I think the camera is actually integrated to some of the modes as well. If you remember in the movie, they did have the WonkaVision where the kid took a picture of himself and it transported him to another part of the game. It shows on the screen there's different times, like when you hit the super skill shot, if I remember correctly, it'll take your picture and it does the bubbling like it does in the movie as it takes your picture away. I noticed that you did a couple different times. They also took a Wonka bar and did that. I think that's a really cool concept considering that is one of the main parts of the movie. I mean, the chocolate factory is arguably the whole best part of the movie, and so it's really cool for them to integrate stuff like that where I think the camera in the past really hasn't been integrated as part of the game. I feel like this one's spot on for what it is. Sure. I actually totally forgot about the Wonka vision until you just brought it up. I was kind of wondering why there was a camera in there. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I don't know. It's there. We'll get to the animations in a second. Probably the only other thing as well is, and I think the machine that they were playing on the Buffalo Pinball stream was a limited edition, even though it had the red trim, which is for the collector's edition. I believe it was the limited edition. It also has, I think it's got, the difference between that and the standard is the physical ball lock. Correct, yes. That's the Wonka Vader. So on the standard, it's just going to be a virtual lock, whereas on the Collectors and the Limited, there's just a little section up above the play field on the back where the ball will get shot into there, and you can lock three physical balls. And the other cool part is you can actually steal those in-game play from other people. So if you're playing a multiplayer game, unless you have it set to tournament mode, you can steal away on the Wonka Vision multiball. It kind of reminds me of the couch from Simpsons Yeah, and for me also a bit like the chest in Pirates of the Caribbean Yeah So, it's good, it's good You know, if it was missing it wouldn't be like the ringed monkey kind of thing It's just Right It's alright It's eye candy, that's the whole point, right? It doesn't really affect the functionality of it, but it's something interesting Yeah. Oh, come on. Everyone wants to stick their balls high up in the air and display them for everyone to see. Whoa, whoa, whoa. On his shelf. Yeah, we all do. Wow. You must be a lot more flexible than I am. More cartwheels, more cartwheels. Yeah, a little bit bigger. So just to also, just on the three different models, and I'm looking at the Feta Matrix, which you will see, it's everywhere, effectively. But the standard comes with black wrinkle cabinet armour The limited is blue sparkle You know, they're onto this sparkle thing And the collector's has candy red Sure, okay And the collector's also has exclusive playfield artwork with sparkle So they obviously, you know, the yellow brick road was just a test case To be able to put it on here Two for one, two for one Yeah, effectively I think you're getting the usual things once you get to the limited and above you get a Shaker motor you also get Invisiglass on it as well as we said before the limited and collectors are the only ones that are numbered and then when you go to the collectors I think you get a special topper what is it? the 3D Wonkatania 3D Wonkatania Wonkatania Wonkatania Wonkatania Yeah, something like that. It also comes with an everlasting gobstopper shooter knob. So there's that. Well, and the question I have too, because on the collector's edition, so the Limited 500, there's something only on it that the rest of them don't have, which is the red secret machine. I don't fully understand what the crap that is. I mean... Yeah. Is it one of the... Is it like a... I don't know, it's like the sled on there that they go back in time where... No, that's... No, I don't think so. It's called the Most Secret Machine, which I don't even know what that is, but it's red. I haven't seen the show in 30 years, so... Yeah, yeah, same. I actually do. Last night as I was going to bed, I thought, you know what, I try and find... I actually looked online to see if there was any of the streaming services that I use that had it, and I couldn't find them because I just wanted to be familiarized with it. But I probably will do that from now to when I actually get to play it. But, yeah, that was another difference that came with it. I just find it weird because I hurried and scrolled through this week in Pinball's whole write-up, and it's on there that they have it, but there's no explanation if it's a part of the game, if it's a physical thing, because we know that Jersey Jack, all they do is mostly the upgrade from the standard to the other ones is cosmetics. It's never really anything to do with the game itself. and there has been complaints that Jersey Jack needs to add stuff into the collector's edition that's part of the game that wouldn't be for everyone else. Yada, yada, yada. So I'm kind of curious if they're taking that advice now and if Red Most Secret Machine is an actual game mode or if it's just something more cosmetic on top of everything else. It's like Daft Punk Multivoluntron or something. Yeah. Could be. Probably the only other difference really when you look at the collector's It's got radcals, and, you know, radcals look great, and pinblades. So they're going to have, you know, the inside side art as well, which is kind of cool. Don't forget it's signed. It's also signed by Jack, Pat, and John Yusey, you know. And also, more surprises. More surprises. Oh, and laser-cut rule card. You don't get those yellow rule cards like you do. So Ryan will be very happy about that, unless they're laser-cut yellow. I will say I am on board with Ryan's aversion to yellow cards I actually I think there's a guy like Pinboy or something like that Where he has some pretty awesome custom cards And I don't have any yellow cards in my machines But I also I'm a little confused when I'm looking at this Is that I'm sorry For $9,500 Like At least my Wizard of Oz has some sort of Topper which I know is not that expensive, but you put that on there. And I don't know. I guess if it's going to be a feature machine, I think it should have something like that. My attack from Mars LE was $8,000, and it has one of the coolest toppers I've ever seen. So you're only getting a topper for $12,500 for $3,000 more? You can be like me, though, and you can buy your LE secondhand and get that money off. I mean, mine was $7,500. That's the same price as a special edition. I still got my topper. Okay, well, that's because the guy you bought it from is one of my good friends, and he is bipolar schizophrenic when it comes to buying and selling games. True, because in the time that he sold me his, he's already bought another LE, and I bought mine nine and six months ago. Yeah, well, my custom Iron Maiden and my X-Men LE, I both got from him, and he was just like, I'm moving on. his pin-side profile has like 130 games, which I don't even understand is possible. That's just games he's bought and sold, so... Whilst you were discussing that, I actually just did a bit of a further recon on the most secret machine. So the most secret machine is actually that device that has the spinning disc that opens up for lock. So that will be red. Oh, okay. Right. So, in the collector's edition. Okay. So there you go. Yeah, yeah. You only have that spinning disc part on the collector's edition? No, it's a special one. Oh, okay. More surprises. I agree, though. The one thing I do like about Jack is that regardless of what version you get, the play is going to be very similar. And so in many ways, that certainly makes so much more sense for writing code, is that they only have to do one version of the code. And I like that regardless of which one I go up to, it's going to have some, you know, the play is going to be the same. So I don't really have a problem with that. I really like that about Jack. Yeah, okay. So I guess probably then, if we're still going to be talking about visuals, let's go to the animations. What did you think of those? as far as I'm thinking on the animations I think they're good I don't know if I like the generic startup scene but I was enjoying the ball walk scene I love the starting the gumball machine or the everlasting god stopper machine I thought they're doing really good to not only renovate the film from 1971 I mean it looked almost modern and like you could step into it but then they also had these animations like when they went to the actual scene of the the golden egg, or they went to the actual scene of the bubble elevator, they threw it back almost retro like you were doing on a 7mm film and watching that. And I thought that was fantastic. It did really good. I've always thought that Jersey Jack, they certainly have the best animations. Stern is certainly catching up, and I think that with Black Knight we'll get to it. I thought those were fantastic too, and finally on par. But I think that really, if there's one thing that Jersey Jack is ahead of, is integrating the backbox and making sure it feels more like a movie slash video game. And so I think they do a really good job of drawing you in. Yeah, look, I think it's early days. Even though I think the code's at 0.42, they said it's not 40% of the code. They're actually a lot further. That's just the numbering system. There wasn't a lot of movie clips. And again, I'll echo that was probably the most feedback that I noted in the chat. was people were saying, well, where's the animation? And a lot of it was the scoring interface, if you will, which was meant to be simulating the factory floor with all the information that you need to play, but there wasn't a lot of movie clips. And the downside of that when you're launching a machine like this is if people... Oh, God, here we go again. We're talking about people again. If people don't see what they want, then the sky is falling. And that, I think, was probably the reaction that I saw in chat, where people going, oh, well, I'm out because there's no animation, or there's no video clips. It's like, well, you know, they could probably insert those at a later stage. We don't really know. And I think, again, people were calling out, oh, maybe they couldn't afford the video assets. That's what was going through chat. But certainly didn't help when the majority of what you saw on that screen was just the scoring main screen. Yeah, and I agree with that. I mean, look, and it just seems kind of not almost wonky to me, some of the weird candy machine thing that they had in the middle of the back glass. It felt kind of weird to me. But, no, I agree with you. Some people kind of, they forget that code is kind of secondary when it comes to these releases. And so, I mean, look at Guardians of the Galaxy. It took how long for it to get to a good place? Yeah, well, now it's a great machine. Okay, Martin, you have the monsters now. Correct. How many times do you like watching Grandpa walk over and open the book? Well, I know the point you're trying to make, and after a couple of times, it doesn't matter. Right, you're just seeing the same thing. And so I guess that my point is that anytime you have movie clips, I don't really care about movie clips. I just want something to move the story along. And so if you keep playing the same clip, it just feels kind of redundant. And so I don't mind with them not actually having movie clips and maybe having more of like, you know, a car dashboard that's interesting and entertaining, but doesn't just rely on, you know, the Oompa Loompas dancing or the chubby kid getting sucked up in the chocolate fountain or something like that. I'm totally fine with not just having movie clips. I think it actually takes more creativity to avoid just putting the movie clips in. Yeah I know what you mean It almost becomes I won say well I probably say lazy but I think it too easy to just put movie clips in there and go job done But my counter to that is the one game that I think Jersey Jack released where the video assets that they used absolutely enhanced the game and that was The Hobbit Yes. You know what I mean? Like, when you're in the wizard modes or whether you're battling Smaug, those clips, which you're not always watching, but if you have a quick glance, you know something intense is happening. Those clips actually add to the game experience. You know, when you're talking about monsters, because monsters isn't an action asset, you're seeing stuff that makes you laugh, so you don't really need it to enhance the intensity of the game. And that's kind of what I guess I'm saying with the whole evolution of Jersey Jack so far is you've gone from Wizard of Oz, which is, you know, it's a very light, even though they've used a very gloomy side of it for their game. Then you've got Hobbit where they've made, you know, really intense atmospheres through use of sound and vision. And let's park dialed in aside because that was a whole new asset. But then you've got Pirates of the Caribbean, which, again, I think, enhanced that whole, you know, full multimedia experience through sound and vision than this. Yeah, I completely agree with you on that, in that the movie clips certainly draw you in. And you certainly make a great counterpoint, is that it would be like having The Hobbit next to Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings is a much better game for most people, but if you look at the visual package of The Hobbit, you are in The Hobbit. You feel like you are in the movies just with everything drawn in. When you see the DMDs on Lord of the Rings, it looks a little comical compared. So then, I guess I'm talking evolution. If you've gone from these assets, which have just gotten better and better and better, do we have an expectation that Wonka should be even better than Pirates? Or is it okay for it to go in a different direction, which I think it has? I think it's good either way. I think that, honestly, Pirates was a good direction, but I think that this is an awesome direction because they're trying to hit so many notes at the same time. And so I think it bodes well for them either way. I guess I think it's because they've got a completely different artistic look to go with that you know and it's probably what we've talked about before with the play field art the fact that you've got lots of flat colours if you then had very intricate video assets to that that would be a bit of a disconnect so a big plus I think is that the animation that's on the screen matches what you're seeing on the play field yeah and also when you look at pirates and the hobbit those those are kind of action films they have a lot of movement a lot of dynamic stuff and wonka is more of just kind of a a journey through a factory it doesn't have the same sort of uh you know adrenaline that comes with the movie clips of the other ones yeah absolutely agree with you sorry martin we were kind of thrown off guard there for a second. Scott and I just received a text from our good friend Jeff Rivera with the Pinball Podcast. He put his money down. He's getting a CE. Really? He's not kidding. There's no chance he's getting a CE. You don't think? There's no chance he's getting a CE. He just showed us the receipt. Okay, well, come on. He showed us like a shipping thing. It says your order is confirmed, dude. I guess we'll see Wonka sooner rather than later around in our parts of the world. Well, I can tell you that since we started recording, which is, you know, let's just, we're coming up to an hour and a half, I've had no less than a dozen people message me asking me whether I'm buying one. So, okay, well, after we're done talking, then I want to feel the, okay, is this a Martin machine for the land down under? Okay. That's what I want to know. Well, so then let's just probably, the last one really to talk about is, we'll put them together, layout and gameplay. What did you think about it? It's a Pat Lawler. What do we think about Pat Lawler's second game for JJP? If you like Pat, this is going to be a Pat Lawler game. You're going to get that Pat Lawler, the start and stop, the perfect shots, the slow pace, I guess the magic, the gimmick. You're going to get all of that. if you're not a Pat Lawler fan and you're more of a Steve Ritchie or a flow or a fast-paced kind of guy, I appreciate Pat's games. I will say that I tend to enjoy the games that are faster-paced. Well, and from my perspective, honestly, the layout looks fantastic. I think the shots are a little wider. I mean, it seems as of recent we're getting tighter and tighter shots. You hear that a lot, like with Houdini. You hear it with even Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. it's tight but findable shots. Well, with Pat, the playoff with this one is the shots are a little wider, but some of the shots are harder to hit. So my point being is those two ramps up front are easier to hit, and they probably feel great. They looked like they were doing really good to hit those ramps. But the two shots that really meant something, like the Wonka Vision and the Mystery Shot, it seemed like you had to shoot through that left orbit and then use that upper right flipper, and you had very little time to make that shot with that upper right flipper to either send it back around on the ramp or send it up into the Wonka vision. So I think Pat is trying to make a tradeoff of a game that's approachable and fun to play, but it's still hard on some aspects, so that way tournament players or people with in-depth knowledge of pinball machines don't feel gypped of playing another South Park. I guarantee that right upper area is going to be really tough. There's what looks like an orbit. It's like a divided orbit. There's one that goes behind the play field and comes around to the left, and then there's one that goes to the right. And there's a post there that I guarantee you will hit 90% of the time. Agreed. Okay, so I'm not a pat roller guy I've said that many times But I've also said that I didn't like Dialed In when it first came out Then when it grew on me, I loved it And I love Dialed In So when I first looked at this, I went Huh, okay, it's not grabbing me And here's a little bit of a sidebar as well When you're showing I'm going to have to say this. When you're showing a game for the first time, put some good players on it. Because... Yes. Otherwise, you're seeing people flail around, don't know what they're doing, not being able to fully show what that machine is capable. And so I think for the first hour, I was kind of like, oh, this is... Okay. I'm not really getting it. And then when Keith P. Johnson started playing and he was explaining the rules and he was getting deeper into the game, and it was literally just before we started recording, I started getting this sense of hope of, okay, now I'm seeing what you're meant to do in this game as opposed to just keeping the ball alive and just flailing about. It made a lot more sense. So that's my tip for the future is when you're showing it off for the first time, get a good player on so they can show you what to do. I feel the same way. With Deadpool, you know, Josh will tell you, the first time I played it, I just felt like I was bricking everything. And then with some time on it, I actually grew to appreciate it more. That katana shot that circles around, it's a tough shot. But once you get it dialed in, it's a lot of fun to hit that. But, yeah, I agree with you. Make sure you have a great player. well I think this is where JJP and Stern differentiate is that the new Stern reveals they keep going back to it's a controlled environment with people that know the game but know when to stop to not show it all I think that's something that JJP might want to start integrating into their stuff because when I watch the Stern ones I agree with you Martin it's like oh this does that this does that this looks like it's a playable game as long as I know they've got a couple minutes on it versus these guys just barely saw this 30 seconds ago and it's cranked, you know, they're just barely playing it and it's just bricking left and right, nothing's happening. I mean, people are draining the ball within 30 seconds if that and the score is like 300 points. So, yeah. But as I said, once I, and so for the first time that people were messaging me going, what do I think? I'm like, I'm a bit cool at the moment, But by the time I got about an hour into the stream, I was getting a bit excited. So what I'm saying, for those people that left the stream after 15, 20 minutes and went, no, it's not for me, go back and re-watch it. I know that Buffalo Pinball will, they'll certainly have it archived on Twitch, but they'll probably move it over to YouTube as well. Watch it. Continue to watch it. It's probably still going for all I know. but you've got to have somebody that can talk through the rules and then show you how to do what they've just explained for you to understand what you're getting into because certainly rules-wise, I think it's quite comprehensive. It looks fairly deep. There's a lot to do. So I think that's certainly in the Jersey Jack, probably outside of dialed in, which I think is a bit more linear. as far as, you know, starter mode and progress through to the final wizard, right? I think this one seems like it has got a lot more going on that you can do situationally. But I just think you need more time to watch it, to understand what it is to do for you to know whether it's for you. But certainly the reaction I got from about the first half an hour of people watching it was people were sort of like, huh, not really blowing me away as people thought it would. What did you get from that? No, I agree. I think that at the beginning it was rough, but as you watch the stream further, and I would recommend to anyone, please go back and watch further into the stream. When Keith P. Johnson gets on it and starts blowing it up, it starts making a lot more sense. Some of the features that I like, I don't understand why this isn't done more, and maybe correct me if it is, but on Attack for Mars, you're playing your main game, but there's the six objectives down in the bottom middle of the flippers, that you've got to complete to get to the final Grand Supreme Wizard mode. I noticed on Wonka they've got 12 of those kind of objectives, and then they're clustered into spinners, ramps, and I can't remember what the third one is. But you have to get those to achieve the final wizard mode as well. And so I like those modes where you can kind of obtain as you're working towards your ultimate goal, but you don't have to do them right away. It's just kind of due at the casualness of how you're playing. I wish we'd see more of that as well. And I like that Wonkid has put that on this game, because I don't feel like we see it much anymore either. I like that with Pat, you're going to get something different. You're going to get a shot selection that is not the same as other games. And so with four flippers, you're absolutely going to have to work on different aspects of the game. It's not just trap up, fan layout, you shoot the typical fan layout. So with this, I envision that they purposefully found a game that was a little more along the lines of that Bally Williams of the 90s, where I guess he's channeling a little bit of Adam's family, where it's simple enough but still pretty, still has eye candy, but something that people can get into and I have a feeling that with this game when you play it you're going to feel like okay, yes, I like this, this is a lot of fun this is something I want to have in my collection or play on site versus I think it's really hard to see what's going on just by seeing this you have a similar thing with Batman 66 where really if you look at the play field it doesn't look like much is going on and a lot of people said well, there's not much but with the code and with everything so many people have really come around on that game. I think you're going to see a similar thing with this one, where people are going to identify with the theme, they're really going to like it, and because it has those four flippers and the multiple shots, I think it will have a long-term ability to capture someone's attention. I actually have a question for you, Martin. So you know how typically when Stern does a reveal, everyone always says, even with Black Knight, they're like, this is kind of Game of Thrones-looking play field. and before that, Guardians of the Galaxy, like, oh, that's Metallica still there. Did you feel like looking at this game, when you're looking at the layout, you're like, this is such and such game? Okay. I did. Do you know what I was hoping? I was actually hoping I wouldn't have to mention it, but now you've asked me directly, because I think what I'm going to say is it may sort of be a bit offensive to what's actually gone into this game. Rollercoaster Tycoon. I've never played one so I can't I honestly I can't tell you if it is or not Yeah well it's A luller game It has a very similar feel When I looked at this layout You know what it made me think of It made me think of If Willy Wonka were in an amusement park Like Disneyland This is what it would look like It would look like a gobstopper Kind of like World ride there you go to the right and yes it feels like an amusement park or at least the map okay so when you go to disneyland they give you that map they said tomorrow land over here and frontier land over here doesn't this look like if you were going to an amusement park that willy wonka is themed this is what you would see absolutely and and for me it was it was the layout it was really the sort of where you've got... And I think this is... I say rollercoaster tycoon, and that may sound offensive because people don't necessarily rate rollercoaster tycoon. I think this is a much better layout. But what it reminded me of is that you've actually got this whole section behind the ramps where there is a lot of sideways action and there's some loops and it's all maintained by the upper right flipper. The upper right flipper in a lot of games these days I think really has got one or two shots. And usually it's a ramp, like a warp ramp, and if you think about dialed in, it's the ramp and it's, you know, the scoop. The other one is Oktoberfest, which has got a couple of shots there. This one seems to have a lot of shots that can be done just by that upper right flipper. And that's what reminds me of Rollercoaster Tycoon. I just pulled it up and it does look similar. I can see the similarities between the two, but this one doesn't have a troll, so we're fine. Okay, okay. I will say, do you know what it made me think of? And so I recorded it in my game room so I can walk around and look at the different games. So I'm actually looking at Shrek, Shrek slash Family Guy, and I see a lot of similarities to at least the left hand and the right hand. Maybe it's certainly a little more complex, but that's not necessarily bad. It's not my favorite game, but I certainly enjoy it. And I think if you're a Lawler fan, this certainly has elements of that with that master that orbit to the upper flipper shot. And I think if you like the theme and you like Pat Lawler, you're going to find this is the game for you. Absolutely great. Absolutely great. And I guess if you think about Darlene, everyone sort of said, oh, there's some features that remind us of a Pat Lawler, but it was very different for Pat Lawler. I think this is really in his wheelhouse again. Yes, I think this is basically, this is rewinding the time. So this is him making a Bally Williams themed game with modern technology. Yep, I would agree with you. So, boys, would you buy it? Honestly, I think I would. I think that really the cherry on top for me is the amount of money less that they're taking off the standard. I don't know if I need all the fancy glitter and glam, but I think for a JJP game at that entry level, you can't go wrong. For me, it's not like I wouldn't, just because it feels like, yeah, this is fun. But for me to buy a game, I have to sell a game. And so I have to look, okay, is there any games that I would swap out for that? And right now, I don't have any willing to let go. However, this is a game that I would absolutely go, and I'd spend an evening and pump in, you know, $10, $20 to have a good time with my friends. Yeah, I think for me, because it is a Pat Lawler and I'm not a big fan of his layouts, this is one where I would absolutely have to play it before putting money down. I can definitely see that. And I'm of that, that you should always play a game before you buy it. I'm not one of those guys who buys things I haven't seen. Yeah, oh God, I hate those guys. There's some games where I've done that. Oh, okay, fine. Well, okay, but you're like on the other side of the world. Yeah, true. We don't have much of a choice, yeah. You have to basically just shoot from the hip and say, okay, well, am I going to buy it? But, you know, you can move it on, right? Yeah, for sure. It's not an Insta-buy for me, mainly because of the layout. But fortunately, you know, we are getting one F-rated out, so hopefully I'll be able to get to play and stream it soon. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, so am I. All right, so let's move on from Wonka. That was quite a good chat about Wonka. The other, obviously the big reveal We talked about it before, we'd seen pictures of Black Knight This time We got to see Dead Flip stream A pro and a limited edition Of Black Knight At Stern What were our impressions of this game? Well For me, I don't know I know that you texted us and you listened to our Episode We kind of gave our thoughts on it there But really, I think Scott and I were both in a general consensus that this is kind of a right flipper dominated game, which is very in line with Black Knight games. I just, I wish there was a little more to it when it does come to that aspect. But I think it looks really, it looks like a fun shooter. I mean, Steve Ritchie's always, I can't think of a Steve Ritchie game that I've played and I'm like, this is not worth taking the shots. And so, honestly, I, the pro appeals to me more than the premium. I feel like there's too much wasted space on the upper play field, where the other two games, you had to be up there. This one just feels like you're shooting for a ball lock. And so if you're not doing a ball lock, there's not really much left to that point either. I don't know. I think overall, I think the art looks fantastic. I think the visual of the LCD is looking great. but this is also one of those ones that I'm definitely going to have to get my hands on which we have one coming here to Utah tomorrow or the next day and so we'll be playing it soon to get a better idea of but first impressions I felt like it's another Steve Ritchie game it looks good and hopefully Tim Balls kills it with code see I'm actually when I look at Black Knight versus Willy Wonka I really want to play Black Knight Black Knight looks like a roller coaster ride. It looks like an adrenaline. It basically, you know, it's a rocking game. I love the retro feel of it with a modern take. I love the guitar, just the guitar riffs on it. And, yes, I think that it's perfect for my wheelhouse. It's channeling the 80s. It feels like it's just a fun general rock game without actually having a band that you're tied to. I think it looks so much fun. I agree with Josh. I think the Pro seems probably better for what I'm looking for. But I totally understand if you have that emotional connection to the Black Knight history or the other games, then you want the Premium because it has a very similar layout with a modern take. I think the art is fantastic. I love the music. I love the retro theme. So if I were to buy one, either this one or Black Knight, I probably would go with Black Knight. Interesting. My thoughts when I first started watching it was that the music was just driving me nuts. And I said that I sort of let Iron Maiden go because it was intense the whole time. And when you start and the music starts, it's just go, go, go, go, go, go, go. This, even more so, I don't think people would be saying, this is more rock than Iron Maiden and it's not a band machine. It looks brutal. You're right, everyone, it was right flipper. I mean, even people were sort of post-passing onto the right flipper to be able to use the right flipper. So that's a sign there. The thing I'll say about the upper play field, it suffers because I think it is this transparent playfield which looks like there's nothing up there. If that was very similar, you know, a dedicated only an upper playfield and there was nothing underneath it and had all the artwork I think you might feel that there was a lot more up there because the artwork would make it more busy and we've kind of said that a lot about pinball machines the more intricate you make it, the more it looks full even though when you look at a whiteboard you just go well actually there's nothing there. so I think it suffers from the fact that it's got a transparent upper playfield I think overall all the elements are there I love the animation people have been very critical of the animation in fact overall I think the response to this has been quite polarising people either love it or they don't there's not really that much in the middle I like the artwork, I love the animation the sound is great, the call outs are great the music is just on all the time so that would drive me nuts what I think we need to see now is choreography what I mean by that is you've got great rules the actual rules and how you get points and how you get multiples that's all there I think what we need now is almost like just an overall direction that puts all those elements together that makes a cohesive story rather than just all those elements right now just randomly together, rammed in your face. What do you think? I agree with you there. And the funny part is, back to the right flipper, there are left flipper shots, but it seems like even on the stream, like you said, they were post-passing because the thing I thought was interesting was the shield. Once you knock the shield up and then you shoot into that scoop, not only is it your mode starter, but it also is your ball lock. And people were post-passing, and so attempting that shot from what should be a left flipper shot, they were backhanding it all day long. And you're going to do that if it's a safe shot, especially with an important hole like that. Yeah. Because I also saw that if you hit those center targets, they just came back so fast. Like, even more so than, you know, the three targets on Star Wars, where, you know, they were rebound of death. these ones were just the same, so people would do that shot from the right flip just because it was more recoverable. I think also they were like, it's a Steve Ritchie game, so let's make sure that the loop shot's in there, because that's a staple of all of his games. I mean, look at Getaway, look at Black Knight 2000, look at Star Trek. No fear. I think that was one of the things where they're like, we need to have that shot in here considering it is a Black Knight shot originally. And so I think they didn't want to take away much more from that shot along with the lock shot is meant to be up on the upper play field on a Black Knight game. But I agree with you. I think there's a lot going for this game in that it could be a lot of fun to play. I just want to get my hands on it. I think the challenge is when you're doing a third version of a game, you have to keep a lot of the elements that are the same. And so I don't really fault them for having the play field. I actually like the translucent play field because I feel the other Black Knights, it almost seems like that upper play field just covers so much of the lower play field, but it makes it pretty much useless. I thought making it a translucent play field actually put a little more in play, maybe some rollovers, maybe the pop bumper cluster. but I liked it. It was a little more translucent. But they are constrained. It's not necessarily a license constraint but it's a style constraint. It's legacy. It's legacy and so you can't, you know, if you're Iron Maiden you're not going to make a pop album. People would look at that and say, well that's weird. So you can't do Black Night and think, oh well this is if it doesn't have the upper play field or it's slanted opposite you know it's a it the uh the upper play field is on the left side dominant as opposed to the right side i just think people want that familiarity of it so you know i i guess that that's the downside of of black knight but i totally get where you're coming from with the music though eventually something's going to get exhausting and so people can either turn down the music or play with headphones or or whatever i'm excited though i i like you, Martin. I like the animations. I thought it was fun, and I thought it was in keeping with the style of the game. Well, the ultimate question, though, is, Martin, are you getting one? Yeah, which one are you getting? Are you getting Wonka, or are you getting Black Knight? I... Okay, well, officially, and Ryan did let the cat out of the bag on our Facebook page, but I did cancel my pre-order for my Black Knight the day before the stream. So I actually got a call, and from our local distributor to be able to get one you have to put a 50% deposit on it so they were effectively asking $6,900 for a delivery and because it is, it's $13,800 delivered I think and I just thought to myself jeez, that's not a lot of money even though it's refundable but that's a lot of money that comes out of my bank account for something that, I don't know, I just wasn't getting the vibe after seeing the pictures. I thought it was very red, very intense, and I don't know. I'd just gotten Munsters as well, so I just, I don't know. So when they rang up and said, okay, you now, to secure your position, you need to give us money, I said, you know what, just go to somebody else on the list because they may want it more than I do. So I feel I'm doing a service here. No? Not going to get away with that? Never. Never. Thank you. You made someone else's dreams come true. You did well. Thank you. So then when I saw the stream, I went, okay, I think I've made an okay decision. And also because in three months' time, Black Knights are going to be everywhere. I will be able to play it. Wonka is a different proposition because even though, you know, I think there's one, maybe two dialed-ins on site. We had a Hobbit on site up until recently. We haven't had a Wizard of Oz on site for a while. I don't think there's a Pirates on location either. it's going to be less likely to be able to play a Willy Wonka and so to have a home game you know I've only got room for four machines I would be leaning more towards Willy Wonka but I need to be able to play this one yeah I think that Black Knight it's one of those games where if you are 50 or 60 and you have that money and you want something like you know like a new Mustang that you want you remember a Mustang from a kid but you want a new version of it that's your perfect game. So I think that that's what they'll be going for. Yeah would I have it in my I probably would have Black Knight in my house more likely than ACDC Iron Maiden some of those other bands just because my kids are kind of young and you know Metallica But I also agree that at some point, that frenetic music will really just drag you down. So maybe, I need to play it too. well there you go so there's the big reveals of this week you've got Black Knight and you've got Wonka it's really interesting I mean we've sort of you know shots fired have given them some criticism but at the end of the day if you think about Wonka and Black Knight and then you think about machines 10 years ago just look how far we've come just looking at both of those machines I just think already they are they're both great machines it's now I don't think whether it's a good or a bad game. It's just whether it's a game that I want or not. Well, and isn't it wonderful too right now? Because like you said, Martin, it's like, yeah, we've criticized it a little bit here and there. But for the most part, what, 10 years ago when pinball was considered dead at that point, you wouldn't be making these criticisms because you're not getting pinball at that point. So for us to be able to sit back and say, hey, we love the looks of this game or we love the layout of this game. but if we were to change something different we can tweak it here and I think it's just because what Stern puts out four a year Josie Jack's now promising you two a year CGC's doing one a year you got Spooky doing one every 18 months and then every other pinball company in between that that's jumping in on the game and so it's kind of nice that we can critique and what not because if it's not exactly what we want we can move on to the next thing I don't know about you guys I'm waiting for my Wheel of Fortune Limited Edition to be delivered anytime soon. Wouldn't they just announce Wheel of Fortune has got color DMD now? You know what? I'm sure that one person who still has it is super excited about that. It's probably the same guy who owns Gilligan's Island who decided that is his passion project because I can't imagine anybody else needing one. I actually quite like both of those games you just mentioned. Well, that and Avatar, right? There you go. So look, obviously my bad taste in pinball is well documented. Anyway, so there you go. Life is good. Pinball is good. For those people that have listened, that are involved in these machines, don't take it to heart. We're being critical because the standards of pinball have just increased so much. Your product that you've delivered is also at that high level. We just want to be critical because we can. well I but I also think those like when you ask people what's the best like soda pop out there I not everybody's going to say the same thing my wife is a big fan of coca-cola or coke zero and I actually like pepsi so it's just it's a taste thing it's like what do you prefer what do you prefer because it has nothing to do with what they're doing because I will agree with you to Lethalt, those four major companies that we've talked about, I mean, man, you're killing it. And so you're doing a great job, and the quality is so high. It really just comes down to, okay, which one do you prefer at the moment? So if it's a style consideration, it's not really a lot of the other stuff. I would like to encourage everyone, you know, if you have complaints, the email for us, if you want to send those complaints that way, is thisweekinpinball at gmail.com. will take all your complaints there. There's also the pinballpodcast at gmail.com. So just go ahead and send those on, and Jeff will get right back to you. Absolutely. All right, so let's talk about some other smaller pieces of news. The first one is code. So we actually had quite a lot of code released this week from Stern. So Munster's Batman 66 and Deadpool. So Munster's at 0.99. so I played .98 I installed that this week and streamed it so I'll send a link to the stream and I'll probably just quickly now I was going to do in this week in pinball my updated impressions of Munsters so last week I was sort of talking about how you know I feel like I've seen it all and you know I don't know how it's going to last And in the spirit of Martin The big flip flop that I am I completely flipped on this I actually now Love this game I I love it too I agree with you I think it's a fun game And I think it's repeatable And I think that it's One that when we went to Keto's I spent the most time Playing it of all the games they have just because for some reason it just feels fun and and that's ultimately what i'm going for in pinball is i'm looking for something fun i'm looking for an escape and man i i am also a sucker for uh for ramps or wild wire forms that go upside down and so that it's just fun to look at those ramps i i love shooting those i love seeing them and so i actually i i'm a fan of monsters and i think it's great i'll go out on this prediction as well too i really think that monsters is such a good shooter it feels very flowing it feels very good that it's going to be very gardens guardian of the galaxy type where people might complain about the code now but in a year i think the code will be in such a fantastic place that it will move into one of those games that people do gravitate towards because of the way that it plays and the way that it feels Okay, well what about Iron Man? I mean, Iron Man Okay, if I can get to the wizard mode Then that code ain't that deep And so, I've been to the wizard mode on Iron Man And it still is the game that I probably play the most out of all my games Yeah, I mean, that's a You know what, it's really interesting comparisons I'll start with the first comparison And the only point I want to make about Guardians of the Galaxy is When it first came out And the code was what it was a lot of people, including myself, said this game has got no future. There's no way they're going to be able to fix this game. It's generic. It's just boring. Nothing they can do will make this great. And they did. And it was just through code. So I agree. I think if they can do the same sort of magic with monsters, you will have a legendary game. We are before that moment. So everybody... And another thread just started up. you know, on Pinside. Big surprise. You know, Monsters has the worst code ever. You know, it doesn't, first of all. There's a lot worse than that. But we just want to push it forward, and I think a lot of people are doing that just so they can raise the flag in front of Stern to say, please do not forget, this game needs more code. The other comparison you talked about was Iron Man, and it's a really interesting comparison, because I think that right now, It probably does have code that's actually deeper than Iron Man. But, I don't know, Iron Man is just one of the... It's an enigma. It's one of these things where it came out and everybody criticised it for its code and it never got updated code, but just for some reason people started liking it again because of context. In the fact that games were getting more and more complicated, so sometimes it's nice to not have a complicated game and in my collection I've got Lord of the Rings which is very deep code you've got Star Trek which is not relatively complex code but can go deep if you're going all the way to 5D Mission and my Wizard of Oz came back this week which is a really complicated game so in my collection Monsters is perfect because if I just want a nice quick game where I don't have to feel I've got this long grind. Bang, there it is, and it makes them smile. So I think it's all about context and what people's tastes are and what they need in their lives at the time. Yeah, I can't really... Really, I have Iron Man, I have Wizard of Oz, which are two completely different games. And look at something like Tron. I mean, Tron, the code really isn't that deep. No, that's right. So it doesn't matter that you don't have Valinor on every single game. It really comes down to, okay, can you make this competitive? Will it last on the tournament setting? And is it still fun to shoot regardless of what's going on? And yes, it's still fun to shoot. And so when I played Monsters the first time, I thought, huh, this is fun. I'm going to put another quarter in. Same here. And so the other game that I did compare it to recently was Deadpool, where I said, I don't think it's got any less or more complicated rule set than Deadpool. But what Deadpool does, it makes you feel like you're doing separate unique things all at once. So, you know, if you're doing Katana Arma, that feels like it's a separate thing compared to, you know, all the quests or the modes that you're trying to do. If you're doing disco loops, that sort of sits outside everything else. Munster doesn't have that yet. And I said this last week, and I'll say it again. I think the Marilyn shot is something that is wasted at the moment, and you could have Marilyn have her own multiball just by hitting that a certain amount of times. You could make that simple, but make it sit outside of everything else and make it stackable, and as a player, you will feel that you've just got more options in front of you instead of starting all the modes of the characters and getting to a jackpot in that left shot. I think that's what you need as a player, is just to feel that there's a lot more that you've got to choose at any one time. There you go. There's my thoughts. Well, that's the Ghostbusters problem, right? The Ghostbusters, it's so linear that it drives you into one way of doing it. Another game that I have here that I really love is Spider-Man, because, you know what, if I want to go for villains, I can go for villains. If I want to chase the white spider modes, I can chase the white spider modes. And so it doesn't drive me into approaching the game exactly the same every time. You need to have some sort of variability in the game just in case if you feel like I want to do something else. Yep, that's exactly right. So, and that's the problem that I've got at the moment, is that when I start up Monsters, I know exactly what I'm doing, and I'll pretty much do it at the same time. That kind of ended up what Iron Maiden started feeling like as well, is there's so much to do, but you just do, you find your way and you do it again. But the sign of a really good game is one where when you hit the start button, you'll decide what you're doing and you've got so much variation that you can do it different ways. And going back to Jersey Jack, I think that's what Jersey Jack machines have been able to do quite well, is giving you different ways to attack a machine. yeah I agree alright so the other one was we talked about Deadpool Deadpool has now got 1.0 code well done Deadpool and they've added some modes more for you know the Mr. Sinister wizard modes at the end so and I know someone that's played it and they've said that it's great it just makes something that's more worthwhile getting to as the big payoff at the end which is great you're actually missing the biggest release on Deadpool is they finally made the vinyl album. So that's worth it for those people that can play vinyl. Or for the rest of us peons, we can have the free version that they gave out yesterday. That's right. You can actually download that. So I will put the link to where you can download those tracks. So there you go. And they're great tracks. Yeah, it's really good stuff. It's actually a good soundtrack. So that's kind of cool. I like the fact that they've just done something additional as a bit of novelty, right? Well, it's actually funny. So it's the same type of thing. They took a lead from Total Nuclear now. Yeah, for sure. And so I actually, I'm not a huge electronic dance music fan, but I still enjoy it. I still enjoy the music. and so I work at a hospital and one day I actually just had the music on in the background and we were doing neurosurgery we were doing brain surgery and and the surgeon looked up and said huh I really like this music what is it and they said well it's the soundtrack to a pinball machine and he's like oh okay alright let's keep going yeah he's just gone yeah there's too many questions to ask about explaining what the hell pinball we're talking about that now when I'm trying to save someone's life. Yeah, and he's like, okay, well, you're a weirdo. Okay, let's move on. Quickly, back to the surgery. Yeah. So the last bit of code update we got was Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle has also had some code update and my only other point to know that is I know that now shipping to Australia is being arranged. So we will get one on our shore soon. Awesome. Have you ever played it, Martin? Yes, I have. I played it at TPF. And I played it at Pembroke last year. Josh, you actually, you were going to buy one. Like, you obviously liked it enough to put down a deposit on it. I did, and then I got into a rough spot, and I needed to get rid of the deposit. You needed to free up some cash, so, you know. Yeah, and so it became not as high a priority. But I feel bad for this game because it looks fantastic, And with Bowen doing the code, it seems like it's doing really well. No one's really talking about it. I don't know if it's just gotten buried under what the seven or eight games have come out since TPF of last year. But from everything I've heard, the people that play it love the game and they're enjoying it. So I feel bad because I feel like it had its moment in the sun and it didn't have such a great response at the beginning. And now we're all forgetting about it. Well, I don't think you need to feel so bad about it because I think the reason why people aren't talking about it is that it had its hype when it was released and the production schedule is so prolonged that people get drip-fed their machines over a long period of time. So I think when people are arriving at this still, when they're getting their machines, they're still very excited about it, but you just don't have this extreme amount of upfront hype and then nothing. It's just, it's had it. And now people are just getting their machines in the usual spooky schedule and Boeing is updating the code and everybody that's playing it at the moment is saying how much of a great game it's become. And I felt that way when I played it at TPF as well. Yeah, I think it's kind of suffering from the same thing as like, you know, Jersey Jack Pirates, really, is that they have the big reveal and it's a lot of fun And then, oh, there's so much delay to actually get the machine. Stern's already released four or five other games in that time. And I know that it's challenging. I've talked about this before, that it's challenging for anybody else to compete with Stern's machine because they're able to just crank the suckers out and be able to announce a game and have it in your hands in two weeks. I mean, that's remarkable. really, they're just barely getting to that point other companies are. And I think that was what Jersey Jack learned was with Pirates. They had an amazing reveal. It was one of the best reveals. And then 15 months later, people still didn't have their games. And so that's why I think people are going to have to tighten their schedule a little bit. With Spooky, it's going to be a little harder because they're more of a bootstrap company. and it works on some level, but ultimately there's a reason why Jersey Jack kind of waited so they could reveal Wonka and say, you guys are going to have your machines soon. You're not going to wait over a year. Yeah, within 60 days, apparently. Yeah, which is shocking, really. That's a huge deal. I mean, how long did it take Wizard of Oz to come out? Three years? Yeah, something like that, yeah. Well, I think it's just that the game is more and more evolving. I think the problem is that Stern's releasing so quickly and you get your game in two weeks that they're taking a good share of the pie, and all the other companies have realized they need to up their game. Because even Chuck over at Spooky has said himself that he wants to get to the point where they have some games to sell when they go to shows, that they're getting far along enough in the production that they can have games on hand for those kind of situations. You're going to have to have that with this instant gratification. I mean, with how much in the last 10 years, and really just think about how, you know, the iPhone is only 10 years old. I mean, that's the first real smartphone that kind of modernized having a computer in your hand. I think that people nowadays just have that attitude. I've seen that. I want it now. Oh, I can't have it? Okay, next. Yeah, exactly right. And that's it. We don't have that luxury. I mean, some people do with, I think, larger collections. They can go, oh, you know, I could wait 12, 18 months to get my machine. I couldn't. I want my machine right now. It nearly killed me when I had to wait five months for my Hobbit. So, you know, we just want these stuff right now. And I think this is the whole thing. And I know Ryan sort of had a conversation with me during the week. The whole fear of missing out is really the big issue that we've got at the moment, particularly with limited editions. And that's what compelled me to get the Munsters. It's like, we don't have a choice. Only 50 machines are coming out. So if I don't put my money down, I'm going to miss out. So that's the problem that we have right now, is that we have this fear that if we don't get it now, if we don't put our money down, we will never get it, and we might miss out on being really cool. Well, I think with you guys, because you guys have to really say, no, I'm going to get it, and really you're taking the risk that, you know what, I'm going to buy it, and then if I don't like it or if it doesn't hit what I need, I'm going to sell it on, and just like you said, I'm going to rent the machine a little bit. But if you don't have the machine and it's not available, like a Tron LE, it's just not going to happen because some of those games don't free up. Yeah, correct. And so, like, especially with you, for an entire country, you've got 50 machines. Well, just the limited editions. Yeah, no, no, I get it. But I don't think there's any other edition that actually works for Martin. Well, history will dictate that that is actually the case. But I also think that if I am renting a machine, you're better off renting a limited edition because you're more likely to get your money back. Where we've seen on the second-hand market, pros and premiums are the ones that suffer with resale value. Yes. Well, premiums really are the most. They're the ones that come down the most. Correct. Pros, you can still, and you get a, at least in the States, you probably get $500 to maybe $1,000. But if you have a game in your house and you get $1,000, $2,000 plays, that's still a pretty good return on your investment. Yeah, sure. Well, if you take it a step further, too, and you get it at a game show, if you get it at Texas Pinball Festival, wherever you decide to get your game from, I mean, that even helps with some of the costs as well, too. So you're not taking as big of a hit with a pro going that way either. That's actually true. Ryan, why didn't you pick up a game when you were at Texas? That seems careless of you. Mate Martin. Yes. You said Ryan. Didn't I say that? Oh. Right. Okay. You should have picked it up for Ryan and taken it home. Great. Now Martin's never going to have us back on. You've offended him. I know. It's true. Biggest insult. All right. So let's talk about thinking of pinball manufacturers. Let's talk about Haggis Pinball. only very briefly in that this week I saw that they put up a video and as we know they've been putting up, I think they're up to episode 13 now sort of their build of Celts they're doing at the moment and Sir Damien from Hangers put up a video saying effectively a call to artists from around the world anybody that would like $5,000 to help them put some art on their Celts machine. So, I don't know. I wouldn't because I'm terrible at art, but there may be some people that look at it and go, yeah, you know what? I sort of doodle in my spare time anyway. I'll give me some of that sweet, sweet $5,000 Australian. Well, but the other part too is those you can use as a calling card. I mean, look at Zombie Yeti. He did all that stuff for John Papadiuk. Well, he got paid nothing. Yeah, he got paid nothing. So you'd get money out of this, plus it'd be your calling card. You can start your portfolio if you're trying to get a foot been at different other companies. So it's smart for someone out there that wants to become an artist in pinball. See, I guess I would say, so my brother is an artist. He's a commercial artist, and he does all this stuff. I will say at least they're doing it right in that they're saying, hey, we are offering the commission. This is the money. And $5,000 actually is a respectable offering. This isn't a, hey, do this for free, and you'll get some free advertising. So I think actually, it's pretty good to say, hey, show us a concept, and then if we hire you, you get $5,000. I think it's actually, it's a better offering than we've seen from a lot of these pinball manufacturers, these startups, where they say, hey, go ahead and make something for us, and then we're never going to pay you. Yeah, you may get a cut on a machine that never exists. Right. You can get a magic girl that never flips. Exactly. And I just pulled it up, $3,500. Well, it's almost $3,600 in American money to do the – that's not bad at all, in my opinion. Them paying someone that could be a not-known artist at all, making $3,600. And I don't know what the artist is making out there, so don't shoot me out for saying that's terrible money. No, okay, they're doing the right thing in saying that this is what we're willing to pay. And so the bottom line is if that's what you're willing to do, then go ahead. There's so many times that my brother would meet people and they would want, you know, they're doing a CD or something, you know, just something that they're doing themselves. And they meet with him and he says, okay, well, let me tell you what it's going to cost. And they look at him and say, oh, well, my kid knows how to do Photoshop and he's in APR'd, so he can go ahead and do it. He's like, okay, well, that's fine. Have him do it. And then they come back a year later and say, yeah, it just didn't work out the way we thought. He's like, well, so again, they're doing it right. They're saying, this is what we're willing to pay, and if you are interested in the job, apply. If you don't, move on. Yeah, it's pretty transparent, isn't it? It's like, there's no strings attached here. It's like, this is what we're offering. If you want to take it, if you don't, well, maybe somebody else will. I don't know. But, okay, there you go. I'll put a link to that video in the show notes. The other one, we can put this under, you know, social media, really, if we want to. But, sort of noticed a bit of a comment on Facebook, really no, sort of, I probably should just come out and say it. Effectively, what they're saying is that Beetlejuice will not be made by Stern. and the reason for it is, and George Gomez chimed in and said, basically, if people aren't passionate about a theme, it's very difficult to get it made. See, I'm not opposed to that. I mean, look at Munsters. I mean, it's a great example. Dwight and John Borg love the show. So you can see that it came onto the play, filled in through the code. So if no one's going to be interested in Beetlejuice and making it, no one's going to be making it. you're just going to get a generic game that probably isn't going to be enjoyable to play. But couldn't they just re-theme, like, Big Juicy Melons again? Oh, they could. Do you think this is the game that everyone wants remade for Iron Maiden? Because you hear the complaints that no one wants Iron Maiden, apparently, except for that it's an amazing game. So just re-theme it Biggle Juice. Yep. There you go. I'm okay. Move on. I'm not interested. I've seen it I saw it 30 years ago I thought it was funny I do not need a Beetlejuice machine yeah it's interesting I really liked the movie when it came out but yeah it was never in my mind ever since watching it so yeah I don't know yeah but you know Big Lebowski you know so many people talk about Big Lebowski I'd never even heard of the movie until people started talking about the pinball machine so you just don't know and you know there is some demand there for that I don't know I don't know. Anyway, we're moving on. Oktoberfest. So just a couple of things. What we'd heard is that the right ramp, which is one of those reversing ramps like Munsters, they're having to do some changes to it because even I played it, it could do with some tweaking to make it just a little bit easier. So that's apparently what they're going to do. And also they're putting some, and I know you guys are going to love this, some non-family friendly call-outs. Oh, bring that over here. I want my eight-year-old dropping F-bombs. all over the place. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I would love to see one of those in Scott's house just to see the reaction. Yeah, especially my kids going to a religious school and just seeing what happens. They would, yeah. That would be very interesting. Anyway, so that's happening. Hey, it works for a bar, though, I guess. Yeah, it does. So there we go. that's all the news this week. Anything else you guys would like to add and also let us know where people can find the Loser Kid Pimple Podcast. Yeah, I guess I don't know what else you want us to add. We've been talking for how long now? It's two hours now. Honestly, it's a dream come true, I'm not going to lie. I was telling you a week or two ago, it's like the little brother annoying his bigger brother like, come on, we're cool. Come on, let's go in your clubhouse. So it's very surreal for at least me at this point. But no, if you want to check us out, we've been pushing Facebook a lot. It's really easy to get a hold of both Scott and I on Facebook at facebook.com slash LoserKidPinballPodcast. If you'd like to email us at LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com, you can do that as well. Also, we're based out of SoundCloud. So SoundCloud.com slash LoserKidPinballPodcast. All three places you can get a hold of us. and if you don't mind me throwing this out there, Martin, we're looking for someone to do a little bit of artwork for us or something for, I don't know, for anything because I'm not an artist and Scott says his brother's way too expensive to pay for, so we'll give you credit. Josh said he's going to offer $5,000, Australian though. So $20, you wish. Easy done. Anyway, it's been so great to be on. Love talking to you. Really enjoy the show. I love all the effort you put into it. And again, I know it's a passion project, and so I just really appreciate everything you do for the hobby, and I love that you had us on, and it really is unbelievable that someone actually wanted to talk to two weirdos from Utah, but we certainly appreciate it and look forward to every episode. Well, fantastic. Are either of you going to Pinburgh at all? I'm not. Yeah, I'm not because I think that out of the thousand people, I would probably rank DFL in the D League. So not exactly sure I could pull it off. However, I really do want to make it to a show either Texas next year or something. So certainly let me know where you're going to be because it'd be fun to coordinate and see all the people we've talked to online. Well, I am aiming to be back in Utah every year, so maybe in 12 months' time we will have a reunion back at Kitter's and have a drink and play some pinball and have a chat. Sounds good. Absolutely, and now you are committed to coming on our show now, and that will definitely boost that for a while. I was going to say, so my wife's having twins, and so that's about the same time as Pimberg, so that's why. Yeah, fair enough. As much as I would love to go, I would rather be here more for my family. Yeah, fair enough. I understand. One request for us, though, when you go to visit Ryan in jail for your conjugal visit, you know, tell him to be very high-spirited. Oh, wow. Oh, man. Wow. I mean, it's a good thing that happened. Wow, that took a turn. What would you like me to tell you? Not all conjugal visits are physical. So, you know, me and Martin goes and rolls a pinball machine into prison if they allow that. Yeah, that's right. I can try that with a couple of shivs inside it. If you can bond with the pinball machine like Martin. All right, guys. Thanks, everybody. And thanks, everybody, for listening as well. Go out and play some pinball machine and go out and buy some of these new pinball machines. Just because I'm not doesn't mean you shouldn't. Awesome. Thanks again, Martin.