Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Episode 93 – Joe Lemire and the Prisoner of Pinball

Head2Head Pinball·podcast_episode·1h 58m·analyzed·May 27, 2019
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Pinball art, licensing constraints, and Stern's concept art strategy analysis.

Summary

Martin and Joe LaMare discuss Haggis Pinball artist hire (Sam Greenwood/Most Ill), the importance of playfield integration in pinball art, concept artwork floating in the pinball community (Franchi's Superman 78, DeadFlip/Pokemon/Little Shop of Horrors mockups), and theories about Stern's market testing strategy. They also explore licensing challenges affecting game development, using Evil Dead (Spooky) and Walking Dead as case studies, and speculate that licensing constraints will force manufacturers toward original IP.

Key Claims

  • Christopher Franchi is not employed directly by Stern but is a contractor linked to Stern

    high confidence · Martin states this explicitly when introducing the concept art discussion

  • Jack Danger (Deadflip) is not directly employed by Stern but has some support/funding and is linked to Stern

    high confidence · Martin's framing of Deadflip's relationship to Stern

  • George Gomez confirmed that Beetlejuice artwork was passed to Stern for consideration, but stated he had never seen Superman 78 artwork before

    high confidence · Joe references George's comments on 'Twippy' (This Week in Pinball)

  • Spooky Pinball wanted to make Evil Dead but licensing costs for a particular actor made it prohibitively expensive

    high confidence · Martin explicitly states he held information about Evil Dead licensing issues, which has since come out publicly; Ben Heck was involved in the project

  • The Walking Dead pinball machine originally had assets from the TV show that were removed at the last minute, leaving a generic zombie game

    medium confidence · Martin states 'from what I was told' regarding the asset removal; this is secondhand information but widely reported in the community

  • Stern concept artwork (Muppets, Pokemon, Little Shop of Horrors) was released to test market reaction and gauge demographic appeal

    medium confidence · Joe and Martin speculate this is Stern using 'feelers' and market research to understand what themes resonate without official commitment

  • The Muppets theme was previously rumored to be in development at Jersey Jack Pinball

    medium confidence · Joe references this rumor, noting that Jersey Jack leaks are '100% accurate'

  • Cosmic Carnival ramp redesign changes the cadence and timing of play despite shots remaining in similar locations

    high confidence · Martin describes the playfield redesign in detail, citing George Gomez' commentary on ramp timing and cadence

Notable Quotes

  • “I do think you need to understand what playfield integration is all about. Because I know that people have slapped art all over a machine and you go, okay, the art looks fine, but I'm not seeing the connection to what's actually happening on the game.”

    Martin @ early discussion — Articulates the core challenge for non-pinball artists transitioning to the medium; defines playfield integration as a critical skill

  • “It's cadence, it's timing... The pace is the same. With the old version of Cosmic Carnival... they felt the same, whereas now because that left ramp goes behind the backbox and comes around... that makes it feel radically different rather than just the shots are still in the same location.”

    Martin @ mid-discussion — Explains subtle playfield design principles that affect player experience beyond visual layout

  • “I think that this is like little feelers. Let's see what people think of these things. Get their reactions... It's brilliant. It's freaking awesome.”

    Joe LaMare @ concept art section — Joe's interpretation that Stern is using concept art as market research disguised as fan art

  • “Since Zach took over... the stuff they're doing behind the scenes is just so good. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I don't like trolling in general, but I love the trolling that happens in the pinball community.”

    Joe LaMare @ mid-discussion — Attributes strategic marketing moves to Zach Sharpe's leadership at Stern

  • “I find it weird that... I'm pretty sure it was George that came up on Twippy and was like, this is the first time I've seen this [Superman]. Which I was like, whoa. Like, I didn't see that coming.”

    Joe LaMare @ Superman concept art discussion — Indicates surprise that George Gomez had no prior knowledge of Superman 78 artwork, suggesting it may not have been officially submitted to Stern

  • “Pokemon, I don't know how you can't make money making a Pokemon pinball machine... That could probably be an evergreen that they could just print money and it's just going to be fine.”

    Joe LaMare @ theme analysis section — Assesses Pokemon as a commercially safe, generational IP with consistent appeal

Entities

[name withheld pending review]personJoe LaMarepersonHaggis PinballcompanySam GreenwoodpersonDamien HardenpersonChristopher FranchipersonJack DangerpersonStern Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    design_innovation: Cosmic Carnival's ramp redesign demonstrates how altering ramp return timing and cadence changes player experience despite maintaining similar shot locations. Described as achieving a 'fishtail' feel through rhythm rather than symmetry.

    high · Martin's detailed analysis of ramp timing: 'The pace is the same... whereas now because that left ramp goes behind the backbox... that makes it feel radically different'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern appears to be using contractor concept artwork (Muppets, Pokemon, Little Shop of Horrors, Superman 78) to gauge market interest in themes without official commitment. Strategy leverages 'feeler' releases to test audience reaction.

    medium · Joe: 'I think that this is like little feelers. Let's see what people think of these things. Get their reactions.' Martin speculates on demographic targeting and brand visibility maintenance.

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Christopher Franchi operates as freelance contractor with multiple employers (Stern, Kapow, mobile gaming); not directly employed by any manufacturer. Jack Danger similarly positioned as contractor with Stern ties but independent artist status.

    high · Martin: 'Franchi is not employed directly by Stern. He's a contractor but is linked to Stern.' Describes him as 'a free spirit' with diverse project portfolio.

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Major licenses increasingly unavailable due to actor/rights holder costs. Spooky's Evil Dead project shelved entirely due to one actor's licensing fee being prohibitively expensive; pattern emerging across industry.

    high · Martin: 'It was one person in particular that was just going to cost way too much.' Cites precedent with Walking Dead where assets were removed mid-production.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.357

0:00
Music Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 93 and my name is Martin and with me... Joe LaMare. Joe LaMare, what the fuck are you doing back on this show? I thought I said never to come back. I just was wandering around and I think it's a pretty cool place to hang. I don't know.
0:51
Well, we... It's just yours as well. Yeah, well, I've said this previously, but I got a lot of really good feedback last time you were on the show, which is great, and the New York City Pinball Championships just happened, so I figured, why not get your back, get into some pinball news. Absolutely. So, the first one is about Haggis Pinball. You know Haggis Pinball very well, don't you?
1:18
You don't. Absolutely not, no. I know you don't because before the week started recording you're like, who are these guys again? I'm like, okay. Okay, Deadpool, stop breaking the fourth wall here. Come on, you've got to leave the people guessing.
1:34
But yeah, so we actually do have some news to catch up on probably for the last two, three weeks. And one of them was that Haggis Pinball, for your benefit, Joe, and for those people listening for the first time that don't know Haggis, An Australian company set out to build a machine and had done it very publicly. I think they're up to now episode 19. They've got a YouTube series which we will link to. And they're pretty much following the progress of their discovery of creating a pinball machine. We also did a, I say we, there was a seminar at the Texas Pimble Festival where I did a Q&A with Damien from Haggis.
2:18
  • Haggis Pinball put out a call for a pinball artist with a retainer to work on their machine 'Celts'

    high confidence · Martin introduces Sam Greenwood (Most Ill) as the selected artist for this opportunity

  • Licensing constraints will force pinball manufacturers toward original IP because major licenses are becoming too expensive or restrictive

    medium confidence · Joe's prediction based on the industry's inability to secure assets for major licensed themes

  • “If you cannot do a machine without the main asset, then don't do it.”

    Martin @ licensing discussion — Core principle: licensing integrity is more important than forcing a machine that lacks key theme assets

  • “Walking Dead... ended up being amazing because of code. But... I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up getting vaulted at some point because of the fact that people love that machine now.”

    Martin @ late discussion — Notes that Walking Dead succeeded despite poor licensing integration due to excellent code, and predicts it may be re-released or vaulted

  • “If you look at the titles that have been made right now, currently in LCDs, there's not many big licenses... I think that we're going to start seeing a lot of licenses that might not ever happen because... Stern is comfortable enough that they can just pass on a title if it doesn't make sense.”

    Joe LaMare @ LCD licensing section — Articulates concern that LCD implementation is limiting licensing availability and driving manufacturers away from major IP

  • “Pinball, which I think a lot of people talk about how they need original stuff. I think that's just going to come now because of necessity. Because I think that people aren't going to be able to get a licensing anymore.”

    Joe LaMare @ final segment — Predicts original IP will become dominant due to licensing becoming prohibitively expensive

  • George Gomez
    person
    Zach Sharpeperson
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Ben Heckperson
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Wonkagame
    Cosmic Carnivalgame
    Deadpoolgame
    The Walking Dead (Pro)game
    Evil Deadgame
    Beetlejuicegame
    Superman 78game
    Dirty Donnyperson
    This Week in Pinballmedia
    Texas Pinball Festivalevent
    Head to Head Pinball Podcastmedia
    Kapowcompany
    ?

    business_signal: Stern and other manufacturers increasingly willing to pass on major licensed themes if asset licensing is restricting or expensive. Represents shift from historical willingness to release machines with minimal IP integration.

    medium · Joe: 'I think that Stern and other companies... is comfortable enough that they can just pass on a title if it doesn't make sense.' Contrasts with 24 machine example of past willingness to ship with minimal license content.

  • ?

    product_concern: Implementation of LCD screens in modern pinball machines is reducing ability to secure major IP licenses due to animation/asset requirements. Manufacturers now passing on significant themes that don't include sufficient licensed content.

    medium · Joe: 'I feel that... the implementation of the LCD is going to put a huge damper on Theme integration in games... there's not many big licenses' in LCD titles. Lists Guardians, Pirates of Caribbean, Hobbit, Wonka as examples lacking significant movie assets.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Playfield integration (artwork integration with insert placement, ramp routing, visual flow) is becoming recognized as a distinct, teachable skill separate from general illustration talent. Examples cited: Donny Gillies, Zombie Yeti, Franchi successful; unnamed Star Wars artist unsuccessful.

    high · Martin: 'I think you need to understand what playfield integration is all about... I'm not seeing any sort of illustration around the inserts or any sort of grading that goes up to ramps.' Discusses failures and successes in artist transition.

  • ?

    industry_signal: Industry trajectory suggests licensing will become so expensive/restrictive that manufacturers will be forced toward original IP as default strategy rather than exception.

    medium · Joe: 'Pinball... they need original stuff. I think that's just going to come now because of necessity. Because I think that people aren't going to be able to get a licensing anymore.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Haggis Pinball's public YouTube development series (19+ episodes) positioning them as transparent, community-engaged manufacturer. Recent artist hiring signals progression from prototype to production phase.

    high · Martin: 'An Australian company set out to build a machine and had done it very publicly. I think they're up to now episode 19.' Describes YouTube series as following 'discovery of creating a pinball machine.'

  • ?

    leak_detection: Superman 78 artwork by Franchi circulated unofficially; George Gomez's statement that he 'had never seen that before' suggests it was not officially submitted through Stern channels, contradicting Beetlejuice precedent.

    medium · Joe: 'Superman, they kind of said they'd never seen that before, which was a little surprising to hear.' Martin: 'I respectfully do not leak this information... I had seen this some time ago.'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Walking Dead pinball speculated to be future vault candidate despite current acclaim, based on pattern of initially underperforming licensed machines gaining value over time.

    low · Martin: 'I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up getting vaulted at some point because of the fact that people love that machine now, but they didn't back when it was actually in production.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Stern appears to be using media engagement (podcast appearances, concept leaks) to maintain brand visibility and monitor community sentiment during production gaps (e.g., Wonka in production).

    medium · Martin: 'Just also don't forget that they monitor how many times Stern is mentioned... this could be just a way of being able to keep Stern the name mentioned in everybody's eyes because Wonka's not out.'

  • But a few weeks ago they put a call out there, one of their videos, to get a pinball artist with a bit of a retainer. But it really was a call to, if you want to become a pinball artist, this is your best chance to do it, to come and help them with their machine called The Celts. And I have found someone, and this guy's name's Sam Greenwood, known as Most Ill.
    2:40
    And I'll link his Facebook page to people. I've linked it to you. I just really want your comment on what you think his art style's like. I mean, this is not my genre. I don't know what types of art are called certain things. I mean, it looks like this cool retro type of artwork. I mean, from looking at the various different pieces he has, he's very talented and very ranging with the things that he draws. That's good. That was kind of my impression. I kind of look at it when I'm kind of getting a sense of your illustration style, as in sort of almost like your technique, but he does have a number of different styles or visual representations of concepts. And again, all I'm trying to think of is how does that translate to a pinball? And I think that he's got the technique to be able to make that happen. Yeah, I mean, if you have the skills and you know or you're being told what to draw and then you can have some kind of connection to that, that you can put your own spin on it. Yeah, I mean, any good artist, I'm sure, could put together something that would look amazing on a pinball machine. Well, hmm. You say that. Yeah. I have seen some examples where that hasn't really happened. And I think this is the thing, right? I'm not saying that you need to be a massive pinhead to be able to go from just doing whatever art you do normally to then pinball art. But I do think you need to understand what playfield integration is all about. Because I know that people have slapped art all over a machine and you go, okay, the art looks fine, but I'm not seeing the connection to what's actually happening on the game. Like I'm not seeing any sort of illustration around the inserts or any sort of grading that goes up to ramps or tries to section off different sections of the play field. I think that's good art. And we've seen non-Pinball artists absolutely make that transition. Dirty Donny did it, Zombie Yeti did it, Franchi did it, whoever did Star Wars didn't do it.
    5:01
    Well, but I mean, that was a bad form of a person. Yeah, I mean, they were obviously a bit hamstrung by life actors as well. But that's kind of what I'm talking about when you see art and you... It was probably my criticism when I first saw Wonka. Yeah, I kind of looked and went, I get it, it's actually quite pretty, the colours look fine, I love what you've done, but that integration with the playfield and the inserts was just a little bit lacking, but now the more I see it, the more I'm kind of getting it and I'm kind of cool with it. Yeah, I definitely, yeah, thinking about the way that you put it, yeah, when it comes to, you know, being an artist and being a specific, a pinball artist, there's, and I think that, I mean, honestly, unless they're given multiple examples and the person who's, you know, hiring them puts that thought in their head and says, hey, just make sure you get, you know, these are some examples, make sure you have in mind that this is, you know, These are where the inserts are going to be. Try and make that as part of your vision and work that into your artwork. If that doesn't happen, I don't see how you could possibly do it correctly then.
    6:19
    Because, yeah, I mean, that's stuff that's in the background that you've never think of as an artist. You'd be like, wait, what?
    6:26
    That's on the responsibility of the actual pinball people to make sure that the artist understands that part of the pinball side, and that's not really necessarily on the artist. So hopefully, I assume that they're going to tell them these things, and hopefully they give them some good examples from different pin machines. Like you mentioned, hey, this one didn't work, this one worked, these are kind of why it worked, so this is kind of what we're looking for.
    6:50
    But I mean, as far as just his skill of making cool art, he definitely has it. But yeah, like you mentioned, that's certainly, but can you do it in a pinball setting? That's always a crapshoot. And then also, look at your audience. I mean, they don't know what they want, so who knows? No, he's exactly right. And that's what I guess I'm saying. I sort of named the big three, I think, when it comes to recent Pinball art. And it becomes adaptability. They may be really good at doing a particular style of art, but they've got to adapt it to this environment. And some have, and some haven't been able to do it. And it's versatility, it's adaptability, it's all that kind of stuff. But I mean speaking of, here we go, here's one of my mega segues which I know you love right from last time. You're still good. I know. So speaking of Dirty Donny right, Suntos Pinball right with Cosmic Carnival because there has been some updates to the layout of the machine. Really all they've done is they've changed a ramp and so it now looks a lot less asymmetrical.
    8:00
    It does. So different. It does. The shots, and I watched a lot of the gameplay, there's a video that I'll link as well.
    8:09
    It just now looks less left and right. A little less Mata Hari, if you know what I mean. But, you know, Dirty Johnny's done the art for that. So, regardless of whether the layout's shit or not, already, it looks amazing just because of the art. And I saw that at TPF and just went, whoa, that actually looks really cool. This is going to be the perfect example, potentially, of your argument when it comes to art sells pinball, not pinball. So if we don't know, we have no idea what this game's going to be like, what the rules are like, how it's going to shoot, who knows. But if it does well, regardless of any of that, and people just go after it because it looks good, And they don't care about the rest or they're certainly willing to overlook any, you know, down shortcomings that might be in that ring or let it evolve over time. Then I think that'll be a kind of a definitive or certainly one of the most definitive, you know, notches in that belt of saying like, hey, if he has good art, people are willing to overlook a lot of stuff. Yeah. And it looks awesome. The theme is awesome. I mean, it does look better, although also weird because you have a plastic ramp on the right and a habit trail on the left and they're somewhat, I mean, they're not symmetrical now, but it's like, they're still, the shots themselves are still in the same place. Well, yes, I know, but I tell you what it is, and this is the subtlety, and I think it was... I mean, trickery. Well, it is a bit trickery, and I think it was George Gomes that was talking about this, and I can't remember where, whether he was on our episode or not, But it's cadence, it's timing. So if the left and the right ramp, and someone, I think it was the Loser Kid podcast, hi boys, they were talking about it kind of reminding them a bit like fishtails. And that's because if you think about fishtails, prime example, that boat ramp, it's not just the fact that it's symmetrical, The fact that when the ball goes up and gets to the right flipper, it's the same time each time. Ramp, flipper, ramp, flipper, ramp, flipper. When you're back and forth, it's just the same. One, two, two, two. The pace is the same. With the old version of Cosmic Carnival, which I played in TPF, the ramps were like that. It was like ramp to the right, ramp to the left, ramp to the right, ramp to the left. They felt the same, whereas now because that left ramp goes behind the back box and comes around and it's going to take longer or just it's going to feel different, that as a player, as you actually playing and experiencing it, I think that makes it feel radically different rather than just the shots are still in the same location. That's a faculty, I think. Yeah, and yes, I believe that I can confirm that that was when he was on video. Because I remember him talking about that when it came to the ramps on Deadpool, and it really resonated with me specifically because, I mean, I know you love Deadpool too. I do, man. That cross ramp, it'd be hard for me to pick another more satisfying ramp than that ramp. Because no matter how hard you hit it, no matter how perfect you hit it, it always barely makes it around the corner. And it's not real, it's definitely going, but the way it slowly turns that corner in your head, it makes you feel like you didn't make it.
    11:54
    It's so satisfying. And that's all with stuff like that, with the design of the ramps giving you these sensations of... And that's probably what, you know, back in the day, I mean, we haven't really seen ramps like this anymore, but where they had, like, the half-cut-off ramp returns, where the thing would fly at your flip. It was like an inner lane, in-lane return, but, like, the bottom, it was, like, cut off, so it just flew right through the in-lane. You know, like, games, um, I can't think of what they are, but, like, super ridiculous feeds, and, like, that's the same kind of, you know, messering where it's, like, the ramp's in the same place, but this return is super gnarly. So it puts you in a state of uncertainty and hurried thinking because you're worried about this return. Like, yeah, I'm going to hit the ramp, but oh man, this ball is going to come so quick at me and I'm not going to know what to do with it. So it's like stuff like that, which yeah, I think that now that you mention it, that does make a difference. It does. As I said, it's very subtle, but you as a player, it will feel different because of that. So, but speaking of art selling pinball machines. Oh, I am just. You save these all for me. Yeah, I do. Thank you. You spoil me. So there's actually a couple of examples I'd like to put forward to talk about art selling machines. And this is now not the after the moment where somebody's actually put their art. But there's a couple of examples now where people have put out concepts.
    13:33
    And I want to talk about the concepts first, and then I want to talk about the reasoning behind, like trying to speculate why these things exist. And then I want to ask the question, is this actually good? So what I'm really talking about is, first of all, we talked about before about Christopher Franchi putting his Beetlejuice artwork out there. And now has put Superman 78 artwork out.
    13:59
    Now, I had seen this some time ago, but I respectfully do not leak this information. You're special. I am a VIP, so very important.
    14:12
    Person. Pinball. Yeah, something like that. But now, sort of almost in the last couple of weeks, Deadflip, so Jack Danger, And just, I think for shits and giggles, but is it, put out just some mock-up art for The Muppet Show, Pokemon, and Little Shop of Horrors. Now, before I'm going to come to you, Joe, don't you worry, I will. I'm going to ask you lots of questions, but I just want to preface this by just making a couple of things, a couple of points. First of all, Franchi is not employed directly by Stern. He's a contractor but is linked to Stern.
    14:54
    Jack Danger, from what I understand, again, a similar situation, is not employed directly by Stern but obviously I think either gets some sort of support or funding somehow and is linked to Stern. And Stern would be aware of all these things being out there. So, my question first of all is, what do you think of these concept arts? So why do you think these concept arts are being put out there? Go, Joe.
    15:24
    Well, of the concept arts that you mentioned, I mean, they all look great for what they are. For the most part, I mean, the Deadflip ones clearly are more of a, they're clearly a Photoshop job versus, you know, Frenchie, which he obviously drew them. Um, as far, and as far as the themes, I could see them all working. Um, as far as why they exist, uh, obviously I think because of, like you mentioned, they have ties to Stern. And obviously Stern had to have known that these things were going to happen, given blessings or whatever, because ultimately whether they did this as a joke or just throwing it out there, I would imagine as being involved with them and this being a product they do with literally the model that they're using, they would have had to have gone through them or else they probably would have been a bit annoyed. So I think that they definitely got the blessing to do so. More so I think probably Jack Danger did because if he is an ambassador for Stern and you know they are not I think big fans of people putting speculating art out there I think they would have to have endorsed this and maybe they are trying to suss out the market because I think that's what it is. I think that this is like little feelers. Let's see what people think of these things. Get their reactions. See, maybe. And it's hard for them to come out as official Stern asking this. So let's have an ambassador do it for us.
    17:05
    It's brilliant. It's freaking awesome. I tell you, man, since Zach took over, and I don't even know if this is necessarily Zach, but like the stuff they're doing behind the scenes is just so good. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I don't like trolling in general, but I love the trolling that happens in the pinball community because they're just so ripe for it and the way that they react to it. I saw the post and the various comments within them, and it was hilarious. Yes, and whether or not, I don't know if, and I'm sure, I do think that this was put out purposeful and that Stern was watching to see what the reaction is. I don't know what reaction necessarily or metrics of that that they were looking to figure out to make any kind of decision.
    17:52
    Because whether or not, you don't know how many people see these things, and whatever their reaction are, sure, they say, oh yeah, I'd buy that. But will they? Probably not. But, you know, stuff like that. So I don't know how solid or useful said data could be. But it's interesting because, you know, clearly the Deadflip ones are just thrown together. But as far as Superman was, like, Superman was clearly a lot more effort was put into that. And unlike Beetlejuice, when Beetlejuice was put up there, George, you know, commented and mentioned that it just was passed on, which was a confirmation that that's what that purpose was for that. On the other hand, Superman, they kind of said they'd never seen that before, which was a little surprising to hear. And so I don't know if that then was Franchi trying to get it done. And he did it and he's like, hey, look how awesome this art could be. This could totally work. But it never made it to Stern. Like, I find it weird that, you know, I'm pretty sure it was George that came up on Twippy and was like, this is the first time I've seen this. Which I was like, whoa. Like, I didn't see that coming. And so, again, this is what we are really appreciating. Well, particularly me as somebody that has to push content out there. I like this because it gets me thinking, it gets me talking, but it gets me sort of trying to understand the process. And so from what I could gather from it, so, you know, well, we said sort of Frenchy is a contractor and he was working for this company. And really what we're talking about is, I believe it's Kapow, right? So he's probably contracted to Kapow, they then come up with the concepts, they then go to the license holder to then try and get an agreement to then pitch it to Stern. So if that's the case, and so far, I don't know. Well, I don't know. My take on it is I trust George Gomez, right? If he says something, I go, yeah, fair enough, I believe what you say. So if he says he's not seen it, then that says to me that Kapow got it together, got some concept art together, pitched it to the license holder, and it didn't go further from there, maybe?
    20:20
    Well, that's very complicated, because I don't think he works with, he's not just with Kapow, because he's done other, because he did Monsters, right? Well, yes, he did, but yeah, but he was contracted then directly. That's the whole thing. He's freelance, right? Does he actually work for Kapow or is he also freelance for Kapow? That's kind of what I'm saying. He could be franchised for Kapow. Then there's also the mobile gaming, which I believe he's done some art for the Wonka game on that.
    20:51
    So, you know, as an artist, he's a free spirit. And with him being on the Slap Save podcast, we're really getting a sense of how much of a free spirit he is. Hmm. And then let's not even talk about the fantastic art. That's sort of... Yeah, we're just... No jumping in front of that first. No, as I said to you before we could record it, there are no winning sides to this argument. So, no. But yeah, that's kind of what I wanted to just really dive into was, do they look good? Would you want... The Muppets have been, as a concept, has been around for ages. Pokemon has been talked about for ages. Little Shop of Horrors, that completely came out of the blue. And Little Shop of Horrors reminds me of Rocky Horror. I don't know if that was big in the year. I think it was, right? Oh, Rocky Horror is huge. Right. Okay. So Little Shop of Horrors and for me, Rocky Horror are in a similar situation in that people either love it and it's just got this ridiculous cult following or people don't give a shit. And I don't give a shit about Little Shop of Horrors or Rocky Horror. There you go. I do. Because that's just not my thing. I'm just not really into musical theatre. I'm not that surprised as everyone. But it's just my thing.
    22:16
    I'm floored, man. I know. I don't even know you anymore. I know. But Superman 78, I looked at that and went, yeah, I reckon you could make a freaking great Layout just with that theme. And again, Steve Ritchie did the first Superman, I'd be thinking this would now totally suit his flow style.
    22:38
    Far flying everywhere. No, no, no. That's my thought. But also the other thing as well is I think that with Stern, and this is again probably I'd say the genius of Zach Sharp as well, just also don't forget that they monitor how many times Stern is mentioned. So this could be just a way of being able to keep Stern the name mentioned in everybody's eyes because Wonka's not out. Just keeping the likes and keeping, you know, there's just visibility, you know, staying relevant, which obviously they don't need to do, but this certainly helps. Yeah, that's what I think. As far as those themes go, I mean, the Muppets, that's just weird. I mean, I like the Muppets, but it's weird in the fact that that was always rumored as Jersey Jack. Correct. So then all of a sudden it's here, so it's like, okay, it says it's Jersey. Because it seems that as bad as it seems the leaks are at Stern, it seems that all the leaks at Jersey Jack are literally 100% accurate. Right? So, uh, so it's like, so if Muppets was there, so either Muppets was dropped and they decided not to, not to get it, and then now they're throwing it over here saying, okay, it didn't work for them, but maybe would you guys still like to see one maybe from us? So then maybe it's been shopped this way, which that seems plausible. Um, Pokemon, I don't know how you can't make money making a Pokemon pinball machine. I mean, I was huge into it when I was younger, and every few years something Pokemon pops up that just destroys the world and takes over, and then it goes away for a little bit and goes dormant, and then it comes back. So it's like, that's a theme that you don't even have to worry about that. I mean, the gameplay writes itself, you're hunting Pokemon, the ball is the Pokeball. I mean, you could do all sorts of stuff like that. Yeah, you could, yeah. That could probably be an evergreen that they could just print money and it's just going to be fine and they don't have to worry about it. Little Shop of Horrors, which is weird, like you kind of, I remember seeing it when I was younger, disappeared for a long time, then randomly my friend was like, there was a play of it in Worcester. He's like, hey, you want to go? And I'm like, sure, I'll go. Not because necessarily I want to see the play, but because I wanted to hang out, blah, blah, blah. And it was fine. As a concept for a game, I don't necessarily know if there's enough there for a machine. I don't know. But as far as Rocky Horror Show, I mean, you being in Australia and me being in probably the epicenter of Rocky Horror Obsession, being in Boston and Massachusetts, because there's live shows here which are just total experiences. I hadn't seen the movie until when I was, you know, my teens or so, and one of my friends was, you know, into it and brought us to a show. And it was crazy, super fun. Like, they throw stuff, and it's all, like, choreographed, and it's huge, you know, audience participation and all that stuff. So it has a massive following here. So I could definitely see that that would work. What that means inside the game, I have no idea, but it certainly has a bigger, a big cult following, so of all the rumored themes, I think that Little Shop of Horror probably is the one that probably I would think doesn't happen, whereas I think the other three are certainly possible, and I can see them happening. The Little Shop of Horrors, I just don't see, that's the weird one that I just go, ah, I don't know, what is that about? No, but this is why this whole, the presence of these things actually existing is what's freaking blowing my mind because, you know, on the surface, are they just trying to say, would you like a Muppets machine? Would you like a Pokemon machine? Or would you like a Little Shop of Horrors? Or are they trying to determine age groups and what appeals to age groups? Because Pokemon's still pretty young-ish.
    26:43
    Muppet Show is really old. Little Shop of Horrors is quite niche. So, again, it's the marketer in me that does research and marketing that says, well, what data are they trying to get by putting these three titles in particular out there? What are they trying to get? So, we'll find out one day, I'm sure. Yeah, and I think that in your description of the titles, I think they're already... Pokemon, I think, is generational because it's just, like, it was huge when I was in high school and it's been pretty consistently around, even going now and now, you know, younger kids and now all those people who were into it when they were in high school and now adults and they're the ones who are buying these things. So I think that has by far the most wide appeal. I mean, there's video games, it's everywhere, whereas The Muppets, it's not as omnipresent. They've tried to relaunch the TV show, it's failed. So I don't know, they might look at that and go, maybe the appetite's not there for that necessarily. Same thing with Superman, I don't know. Since I saw those movies, I haven't thought about them at all. So I don't know. But with all the nostalgia going on, I can see that happening. But I mean, this is where it comes down to like when it comes so like at the show, you know, there were tons of Stern people there and I got to talk to a couple of them and I won't name any names, but I was talking about like, you know, some of my concerns with, you know, the future of pinball and how like the LCD, the implementation of the LCD has been a great thing for us as players. But I feel that, and I worry that the implementation of the LCD is going to put a huge damper on Thieve integration in games. So, like, this was all brought up in the context of me trying to be like, hey, so you're going to vault Lord of the Rings, right? Right. And, you know, I'm just talking about because if you look at the titles that have been made right now, currently in LCDs, there's not many big licenses.
    29:11
    And the licenses that have been done are mostly Disney and mostly movie clips and just plain clips. Looking at you Guardians Whereas you look at the other ones there custom themes or custom animations that go with a known theme like Deadpool stuff like that Whereas if you start looking into if you look at Pirates of the Caribbean there not a lot of Pirates of the Caribbean in Pirates of the Caribbean There not a lot of assets in there They have one voice actor There a lot of stuff in the movies is not really in there The Hobbit is all clips And same thing looking at Wizard of Oz Willy Wonka there not a huge lot of stuff from the movie in there either Sure. So, and, you know, they mentioned the same about licenses and how it works now, and I think that we're going to start seeing a lot of licenses that might not ever happen because I think that the industry and Stern and other companies, or at least Stern, is comfortable enough that they can just pass on a title if it doesn't make sense when it comes to what assets they're allowed. Right, yeah. Unlike back in the day where, you know, I was a massive 24 fan, I found the 24 pinball machine and realized there was Jack Bauer in it and went, why the hell does this exist? Like, at which point do you get told, you know, that's like making, I'm going to make a Superman machine without Superman. Like, okay, then why are we making, we're not making this machine? Whereas back then they just go, okay, we have to do it and they put it out no matter what. Whereas now, today, if they came to them and said, hey, in that same situation, they'd be like, no, thank you, we don't need to make that. Right, well, so there's also a parallel there with Spooky. And I say this now, there's a lot of information I've had that I've held on to. See, I'm being a good citizen by not leaking this shit because I don't need it for ratings. But it's actually started coming out recently some talk about Evil Dead and the fact that Spooky wanted to do Evil Dead. Oh God. I guess I was going to say that. Ben Hex come in saying, you know, speculating, you can't see my bird's eyes again, on what it could possibly look like.
    31:33
    But I can tell you the problem they had was licensing. It was one person in particular that was just going to cost way too much.
    31:47
    That matters. And I'm not going to say who that person is, mainly because... It's going to be Bruce. I can't remember their name. Who else can I remember? Because I'm not interested.
    31:58
    Yeah, it's the main actor there. I'm not going to say who it is. But it's exactly to your point. So I'm going to say, as much as that really did piss off Ben Heck, I'm sorry Ben, you didn't get to make your machine, but if you cannot do a machine without the main asset, then don't do it. Yes, please do not. And very oddly, very, very rarely does it ever work out. I'd say Walking Dead is the only example where they had assets. And the assets were pulled at the last minute. And, you know, from what I was told is, which I'm sure you've heard the same, like all of The Walking Dead, the actual show, used to be in the machine. And then at the last minute, it was all ripped out and they were left with a generic zombie machine. And as a Walking Dead fan, I remember when that came out, I went, wow, this is a really brutal game, and there's no Walking Dead here. Like, as a fan of the show, I'm like, there's nothing here from the show. But that game ended up being amazing because of code. But, I mean, that, I think, is the only example where a game had a theme, and that theme was roughly ripped out of it, and it still succeeded. Although it succeeded way later after its run, seemingly. I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up getting vaulted at some point because of the fact that people love that machine now, but they didn't back when it was actually in production, so I think they could sell a lot of stuff. But I could see that, because that's what I worry, and if you think of that specific example of Evil Dead, so that is pretty much a B actor in a B movie that you couldn't even secure that. Like that's no Downey Jr. or anyone of any clout in a movie. Like if you can't get that dude on that, then I think that Pinball, which I think a lot of people talk about how they need original stuff. I think that's just going to come now because of necessity. Because I think that people aren't going to be able to get a licensing anymore. And as a person like me, who I love licensing, especially when it speaks to a theme that I love, look at Lord of the Rings, which unfortunately probably is never going to be vaulted because of that exact issue.
    34:25
    It's just, you lose something there of emotional attachment to a game. I mean, yes, some people have emotional attachments to like a Medieval Madness or, you know, generic themes. But when you have a theme in Adam's Family or something like that, there's just something outside of Pinball that you loved and then it's injected into Pinball. I think that that brings far more to the table than just something that was made within the sphere of Pinball. Well, let me bring up another example. Alien. Where's Ripley? Yeah. How much backlash did you get about that? Well, obviously, not you personally. Yeah, I know. But from what I've heard and hearing Roger talk about that, that seems like that wasn't actually a Fox problem. That seemed like that was a highway problem because him talking about it after the fact, if I'm remembering correctly, it seemed like they didn't even necessarily ask for Ripley. Well, it was probably just you that couldn't afford it. Yeah, like there was probably at the beginning it seemed like, but like Roger was talking like, well, if they had come back to me and then I talked to them, then that could have probably happened. So like I could see like that probably if that theme was done by anyone else, if someone saved that and put into Jersey Jack or probably Stern has a better chance, you probably could get, you know, Ripley in there for that specific title. Because, um, but I mean, yeah, it's, yeah, but I've heard, I mean, I haven't played it, they don't exist for the most part. I've heard good things, but I have no personal opinions. When I heard that it was an alien theme, I'm like, wow, I've always wondered growing up and when I got into Pinball, why is there no alien theme? Why is there no predator theme? Well, I still remember the day where I was talking directly with Andrew Highway about, you know, getting an alien and I was, I honestly had the screen up on my computer with the buy now ready to put my credit card details in to pay a deposit and just something stopped me from doing it and instead I just hop it. Now, you and I, we've talked about Hobbit, right? Yeah, we can't get through another podcast without talking about Hobbit. Exactly right. But if you think about it now, those people that really got the alien machines, it wasn't going to be me. I was going to lose my money had I done that. Those people that have got it now, those that have either managed to get it off somebody else or those extra ones that were shipped right at the end. And so I still had a better experience at least having a Hobbit for 18 months than not having it and souring my entire experience by giving money. Yeah, I can't imagine. I mean, like I mentioned last time, we had a local person who got burned by alien and predator. So it definitely stinks. And it's weird because in a vacuum, like it seems like a good game. And oddly enough, the people who did end up getting them made a shitload of money on them because those things are selling for ridiculous money. Absolutely. And I played it. It's a really, really fun game. And, you know, here it comes. You ready?
    37:49
    There are other games that, you know, command a lot of money these days that people weren't expecting. Oh, what's that, Marty? Wow, Supreme Pinball. So, you know. No one would buy that. It's too expensive. It's way too expensive. No one's ever going to spend that kind of money. So, it was just recently linked by Stern Pinball that at Sotheby's, is it Sotheby's? I always thought it was Sotheby's, but at Sotheby's, Sotheby's or Sotheby's, I don't know who it is, But they have currently got, Sotheby's is an auction house, and they have currently got a Supreme on auction. I'll link it. By the time this probably, you know, the podcast comes out, it's probably sold.
    38:40
    But it currently has 38 bids. The reserve has been met. It's in Hong Kong dollars. So the current bid sits at $240,000 Hong Kong dollars, which I think is about $30,000 US dollars, is that about right?
    39:01
    Uh, let me ask Google. Oh, do that. Hong Kong dollars, that is $30,576 US. There you go. Oh, well let's see what it is in Australian. No, no, don't. Can you count that high? Okay. There's not that many. Australian dollar. Whoa. That is $44,151. Yeah. That's a lot of money. But again, we always sort of said about Supreme. It's not about the list price. It's about the second hand market. That's how Supreme goes absolutely bonkers. So curious to know, I mean on the particular site, the auction guide says estimated 400 to 600,000 Hong Kong dollars. So they're expecting that to go between 60 and 80,000 US dollars.
    39:58
    That can't possibly be true, Warren. No one would spend that kind of money on a pinball machine. It's showing we've got a business doing such a thing. You notice it's called the Supreme Vault? Yeah.
    40:13
    Yeah. Oh, is that the name of the actual thing this is in? Possibly. I don't know. I just missed on the next item. There's actually a Supreme punching bag that has a current bid of 70,000 Hong Kong dollars. I can't remember what that is. But that's expected to go for 80,000 to 120,000 Hong Kong dollars. Well, the Supreme Vault is literally just all Supreme stuff. Dear Lord. Yeah, see? Look at that. So smart. So, anyway, that's what's happened.
    40:48
    Look, last week, I did very briefly mention, you know, back to our whole art sells machines. We did mention briefly last week that, I mean, at the time it had been hinted at, but now it's official that Stern is releasing a Catwoman Batman 66 edition. And a Dalla Premium Monsters. Why do you think that is, Joe?
    41:14
    Oh, it's clearly, I mean, they're making those colour monsters because they're purposely fucking over L.A. owners. I saw that on the internet somewhere. It must be true. That should bother me. It doesn't. Because obviously I've got an L.A. Monsters. It doesn't bother me. I went the LE because I didn't want the black and white, which is a logical way of saying that I would have gone the LE anyway because premium's a bit beneath me.
    41:46
    Oh my. So it doesn't bother me at all. I tell you what bothers me is those people that the day after that was announced their black and white premium arrived and they were shitty because they would have actually liked to have had a colour premium. Hmm. But they say it's demand. They say people have been screaming for it. The other people are commenting saying it's because it really hasn't been selling all that much because the black and white edition has been polarizing.
    42:24
    I don't know. It could be that it's not selling because the code. I don't know. So the S-Storm that that game has gotten, I don't get it. I don't know, it's the internet at its worst and I think the pinball community at its worst. But as far as the LEs go, the people flipping out about that, it's like, okay, if you bought an LE because it was color and no one else could have color, then that's on you and that's stupid. There was no way that this was, if people wanted color and the LEs sold out, which they did, that they weren't going to make a color version. That's ridiculous. Like, talk about not having any forward thinking. And the fact that now there does exist color does not devalue your L.E. It is still limited. It is still very different than the premiums. And people just need to stop being babies about this crap. Like, I don't understand why everyone thinks that, oh, something is similar to my L.E., therefore my L.E. is no longer an L.E. Yes, it is. It is still numbered. It is still limited. I've still got a signature on it. Exactly. So it is still worth what it was worth. If it changes in value, it's because people like you change the value. It wasn't done by the manufacturer, it's the pinball community has decided that. So I think that the pinball community needs to look in the mirror and realize that they're doing this to themselves. As far as when it comes to someone who just ordered a black and white and now doesn't know that there's a color, I don't know. That seems like maybe, because from what I understand from what seems to have been pushed out there for information, that the distributors are the ones who know all this stuff in the background. So I don't know if maybe those people got it from a bad distributor because it seems that probably, I assume, distributors knew these were coming. So when a person went to go order a black and white and actually talked to a distributor, I would imagine that they said, hey, just so you know, a color's coming. So if you want this, maybe hold off, blah, blah, blah. Because that seems how that works. I just don't think from the outset they knew that they were going to do a color premium. I think that they've just gone, holy shit, we're probably not selling as many units as we need. Let's do a color because that's what people are screaming for. That's the feedback we've seen. People saying, oh, had a premium been color, I would have bought one. I don't know. Yeah, and that could just be a reaction to it. I think that the big thing, and I think that a lot of people are scared by the black and white, but I think that everyone who's seen one thinks it is gorgeous. But the problem is you have to see it in person. Like, I saw it in person, and it is beautiful. Like, the way that the colors pop on that, it's like, it's a black and white version, but the colors on that black and white version are awesome. So because they pop more, the way the inserts show on the playfield, the way that they use colour in it, it makes those things even more impactful and stand out and just shine even more because the rest is in black and white. It's a beautiful package. I agree with you, but I also, because I got to see them side by side at TPF, I saw the black and white and I saw the LA, they weren't actually side by side, one was in the PIN stadium booth. But I looked at it and I said, I really like the black and white, but holy crap, look at this full colour. This is freaking insanely good. So that's kind of, and at that time, all the LEs I think were sold out. So people only had a choice of the black and white. And I think there's a dilemma where it's consumer confidence. They're looking at it saying, I do think the LA looks better, but I'm now only forced if I want the lower playfield to have this black and white one, but I don't want it. Yeah, and I think that it comes down to also the I need it now culture we live in. Yeah, FOMO, yeah, fear of missing out. Yeah, if you just waited it out, I mean, if the fever was there and the outcry was there, they've always, CERN has always proved that they will shift and do the right thing when it comes to that stuff. Look at Game of Thrones. Right, exactly. That premium edition came strictly from that, and look, it's the best edition, and it's beautiful. They've shown that if there clearly was this kind of demand, and it was warranted, CERN was always going to make a color edition. But it wasn't going to be in the time frame a lot of people when they wanted it now. Well, they needed to get feedback to know what they were going to do. Yeah, so you just say, hey, I would really love to buy this if it was in colour, and then wait it out and see if it happens.
    47:20
    I mean, if someone bought the black and white and the next thing you know they wanted the colour, I can definitely see how that sucks. Yeah, well, people have actually reached out to me and they're a little bit frustrated by that. But, you know, again, I'm sort of in the same situation where I think you're never guaranteed. Indeed, and it comes back to the Catwoman Batman 66 edition, which for me I think the parallel there is the ACDC Lucy, where it's kind of... It's a vault, pretty much. Well, it is, but it's also a limited edition. Oh, because of the cards. Well, some of them are, yeah. But you know what I mean? Because it's only one of so many that's made and it's rarer than the premium or sometimes the LA in some parts. Well, when they announced that, was it X amount of first buyers got the cards? And that was the main thing that was... because I don't think that they said we're only making X amount of these games. I think they were just like the first X they buy these will get these cards. Yeah, I thought it was 200 was just a number that I thought I'd heard. But again, it's just one of those things where it's opening up new revenue opportunities. And I think they kind of need them because as we've sort of spoken to a number of Stern representatives over the years on the podcast, they've got an assembly line, a factory that needs to keep working. They've got to have things on the line so they just fill it with things that they know they can sell. And so maybe it is that Munsters hasn't sold as well as they thought so. They've got to keep the titles on the line. And, you know, there's a couple of additional ones that the rumors that are coming out now. I mean, everyone's been talking about Tron. Depending on who you speak to, people say that it's absolutely happening. People say that it's absolutely not. Some people say that it's new art that's been done. Some people are saying it's the original movie theme.
    49:28
    There's also talk of a... What an LCD. Right, yeah, all that stuff. There's also talk that there might be a Beatles without the Beatles theme being made.
    49:43
    Which, obviously, C, which, for those people who didn't get my subtlety, I think that maybe, you know, Stern might actually now release, well I say Sea Witch, but effectively the altered layout that they did to Beatles, but actually just theming it back as a Sea Witch and maybe even selling it less because they don't have to pay the Beatles for the license. Correct, yeah, which I earned $1,000. Yeah, so, you know. I think people would eat that alive. I think people would absolutely eat that alive because, as you know, people go, yep. And now that Beatles has been out there and people have played it and everybody actually really enjoys playing the game, it's always been about the price. But it's too expensive, yeah. Correct. I think that that will be a massive hit and I think that they, and I think, honestly, I think that this is a really good potential benchmark for future launches in a similar vein where you take, if there's a theme that, you know, you go for the, whatever theme you're looking for, It obviously costs more money, and you launch that as Quicksilver, whatever it's, the Silver Surfer, who knows. And then after the fact, you then have, it's kind of like a theme of a premium pro model, but instead it's like Fireball and Fireball Classic type thing, where I think that the people who want the theme, they get it, they're safe, and Stern makes that money there. And then the people who just want the layout can still get that in the back end six months later or whatever the time frame is after the first runs have gone. I think that there's a lot of potential there because, and I think you were in the same boat, I don't know what they were thinking, why they chose Sea Witch as the game that was the one that they were going to release first. When they go back into their old catalogue and say, this is the playfield I think that we could sell as a Beatles game. Versus some of the other much more famous playfields. But, okay, really interesting you should say that because, obviously I give this some thought. What I think is that there are other Stern machines from the Stern Electronics era that are better machines. But I think they're better machines because they've got better rules, but not necessarily a better layout. Whereas Sea Witch didn't necessarily have a phenomenal rule set, but just bog standard had a really fun layout. So they looked at that and said, as far as layout, that's what I think. Well, the Sea Witches I've played, like, that looping shot, that upper playfield was so clunky, it never seemed to, like, do what it seemed to be. No, I know. So it turned into, like, a... But when it came out, it did. So, again, they looked... You're dating yourself there. Well, I did that a very, very long time ago. My massive milestone is next year.
    52:41
    But if you think about that particular layout, if they're looking and going, well, the problem with the orbit is the strength of the flipper. Well, hang on, we're going to put new flippers in this, so that'll be fine. That's kind of what I look at is that I think of some of the Stern electronic games and everybody knows that I think they're a little bit overrated. But they do actually have kind of cool layouts, but those layouts are only really awesome if you've got, you know, for example, a spinner that's worth a shitload of points. When you rip that spinner, it feels good. But if there was no rules for that, you wouldn't give a shit.
    53:18
    Yeah, and you could be completely right that maybe instead of thinking the way I'm thinking where I go back and I say, What are the best Stern games? Those are the ones I should remake. Maybe they go back and say, what are the not so good Stern games that maybe with X improvements can become way better? And maybe that's what they saw with C-Witch. Who knows? Maybe the next one's going to be Freefall. Ha ha, good thing. Or Iron Maiden. Oh, not Iron Maiden. I get to play that at Pit Fest. Whoa. That game is interesting. It's not bad. For me, I would love a Quicksilver. I think that layout for me would be so much fun. Well, I think that's the... everyone would think that that would be the one. I mean, between that and the three-spinner one. I can never remember the name of it because I see it three times a year. Stargazer? Star... Yeah, Stargazer. I think Stargazer, I mean, when it comes to the value of any of those old games, Stargazer by far wins with the ridiculous amount of money that those get and how there's so little of them. So you'd think maybe Quicksilver, Stargazer, you know, would probably be next on that. I mean, just think of like maybe what you could do with Flight 2000. Imagine what you could do with that nowadays. Yeah. Like, you could do all sorts of weird stuff. Whether that entire giant or even, like, a big game. Yep. Like, that would be something like a big game would be so refreshing in today's climate. Yep. With standard flipper bottoms that, oh, there's four flippers down there. And then you turn that into a Beatles-esque modern experience. That could be amazing. Just do it, sis. And super unique. Oh, it's like... Anyway. It's coming. It's just that we just have to be patient. I just, it seems like this market that's just after, I think it's going to happen. I think what's going to happen is they're going to do the Sea Witch, it's going to be huge, and then the life's going to go on, and then all of a sudden we'll see this as maybe one of their cornerstones every year, as maybe a fourth cornerstone on a different line that's just going to be like these old games. Because, I mean, they have to be, if they're not willing to revisit their big thematic games, Like a Lord of the Rings, maybe even Simpsons, you know, older generation games where you're in Sam, so then, no, White Star, so then the porting of that is very difficult and probably expensive. If they're never going to go into that part of their catalog, they're going to start running out of things to rehash. You know, there's not many Trons in the catalog where you can just go, yeah, we'll just make some and tons of people will buy them because they will.
    56:03
    Exactly. So, I think it's inevitable. Yeah, so let's move on to virtual or digital pinball. A couple of things I want to talk about. First one I really want to talk about is a person that's done a virtual, you know, VP version of a Harry Potter game. And I say this because everyone's talking about it, particularly me and Jeff from This Week in Pinball because we are the biggest freaking Harry Potter fanboys that want it as a pinball machine, like more than anything. But this person that has actually put this pinball machine out, and he's named Bambi Plattschus, I think he might be German or something. He has done a virtual pinball and oh my god, it is amazing. I mean when you saw this, you thought it was real, right? I knew it wasn't. Without context? I knew it wasn't. Like it was presented to me as this is a virtual pinball machine. But as I was looking at the artwork and I was thinking, hang on, no, no, no, no, no. This looks too good for a virtual pinball machine. And then I saw the layout and I thought, oh my God, this is a Jersey Jack pinball machine. It is just so Jersey Jack. Just the layout, the art style.
    57:30
    Yep. Sort of the ramp. Very hobbity. It is quite hobbity, but it's also a bit parts of the Caribbean as far as the outlanes and inlanes.
    57:42
    I'll link a couple of videos to this, but people. This is why people like me get very excited about Harry Potter as a theme, because this person has illustrated exactly why it would make a great Pinball theme. Oh, I mean, I don't think that there's anyone, even the haters of Harry Potter, which there probably aren't many of, would agree that this would be an amazing title that just writes itself and sells itself. And I mean, the way I, because I think of the way that like, he framed it on Twip that this was kind of like, oh, look at this. And it wasn't necessarily cut like out front saying this is a virtual pinball machine. Like you look at these pictures, if someone just came up to me and showed these pictures, they'd be like, oh my god, oh my god, it's happening. Because I mean, even it looks like an LCD system. It looks, there's CAD showing it, which that's normally, you know, you don't picture that happening in a digital world. So, you know, as far as when it can't, you tend to see these for like Whitewoods and stuff like that. And then you see the main art and you're like, oh, here we go, here we go. And then, you know, you get, first off, as a big Harry Potter, you look at it and you get a little confused with the things that are on here and going, wait a minute, this is like, is this one movie?
    59:03
    Yeah. Which would be I mean that when I thought about because there seems to be a lot of rumblings in the background and talk when it comes to Kepow kind of posturing as if they might actually have the license which I don know if you heard that too I heard that So you know yeah and because so with that in the background my main thing is like how would you possibly fit this into one game
    59:38
    And should you? Because if you, should you try, if, as you being a massive Harry Potter fan, what would your preferred delivery system be? Like, would you want it to be, like, maybe the first part of the movies in one machine, and then maybe the conclusion is a different? No, I, okay, so this is where people get really frustrated about, I think the first real frustration came out with Game of Thrones, right? When people were like, because Game of Thrones came out after Walking Dead, I'm pretty sure. But that was the first one where people sort of said, well, there's no immersion. I don't feel like I'm in a story. And it was just showing clips of the show, right? But you never felt like you were part of it. But Hobbit's like that. Hobbit just shows clips from the film. But the way it's presented and the way the sound happens, you feel like you're just in the moment of that particular scene that happened in one of those movies. So I'd be okay with a Harry Potter theme having bits and pieces of the movies and you're just acting out some of the scenes. because I think that when you have to tell the story of all the books and all the movies, that's too much of an undertaking and too ambitious and it would never get done. Yeah, because not necessarily in that way, as I mean, but as far as... because if you go at it, say, I don't know, what you're talking about is maybe a Game of Thrones wing where literally a movie is a mode, Like it is in the vein of that game. Or you go like the Aliens route where you kind of have, you pick a movie and then you play through modes within that movie.
    61:36
    Because there's so much there that, because ultimately I think that if you don't, say, go from movie to movie and you have X stuff within those movies, maybe like Pirates of the Caribbean, I wonder at what point you enrage the fans because things are missing that could have been there. That if you're not too diligent, we're trying to hit as much as you can within each individual movie, that you're going to get the ridiculousness that's going on with Game of Thrones right now. Yeah. Because that's what, so like, I'm trying to picture of like, how, because I'm not saying that necessarily you have to play as Harry or even be involved in the story yourself. I don't mean that like that, but just of how much do you pull from the entire trilogy and do you try and fit that all into one machine or do you maybe have it, you know, you could easily do a Harry Potter and then, Do a Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Could be its own machine, practically.
    62:43
    You know? Yeah. So, I guess how much you want to... I guess you could have like a Star Trek-esque, you know, what's that? How many modes is that? So you could just sparse it out when each movie has four modes in it, and then just do it that way? Yeah, it could be. That's kind of what I'm saying. I think that with the amount of content that you've got in the Harry Potter world,
    63:08
    If you even attempted to tell a story, you would get crucified for it because people would say, oh, I can't believe you, you missed the Aragorn or the, you know, whatever that bloody big spider's name is. I can't remember what it is. Or, you know, you missed the Whomping Willow and you missed the Hedwig bit and... You know what I mean? Like, I just don't think you could ever try to immerse somebody in the story. You've just got to show some scenes where you feel connected to those scenes. And as I said, with Hobbit in particular, it's not the modes, but, you know, it's the mini wizard modes that they do, like Enter the Fire. You feel like you're right. Which are some of the best ever made. Right. Yeah, those modes are amazing. Yeah. Yeah, because I think that, and this would be an interesting thing because, you know, you could half parse it like that where you're just kind of, you're not diving fully into the Harry Potter universe, right? You're not going to have too much from each movie. You're just going to kind of dabble, you know, and then that could probably fit into the current system that their release is going to. I wonder is that would they dabble into like something as big as this, right? And this will probably end up being maybe the biggest, if they did it, probably be the biggest machine they ever made or could ever make based on the license. Do you just say, we're going big, we're going to do as much justice to this title as we can, and we're just going to charge whatever that cost ends up being, and be comfortable with the fact that A, probably the Harry Potter people will pay that amount of money, and be fine that it's not going to be this mass thing. Would they be fine saying, we can make the best Harry Potter experience possible, and it will be amazing, but it's going to be $15,000?
    65:05
    Do you think that would happen? Because I could see that, like, I don't, I think that it's one of those weird things where if you're really into the theme, And if someone came to you and said, you know, we will do the best possible with the theme, but it's going to be more expensive than all the other games you've ever had. I think a lot of, if they're huge fans, would be fine with that because ultimately they care about the theme and how well it's used and what's there. So I think that, honestly, I think that they could get away with going big on this machine and it being a very expensive machine and just saying, you know what, we're going to do it. If we're going to do it, we're going to do it big and we're going to make the best machine we possibly can and it's going to sit at a price point of whatever it ends up being and we think that people will still buy it. You will pay that because you are all such fucking blind fanboys that you would just fucking shut up and take my money, which is exactly what I would do. Yeah, and ultimately if they pull that off and they hit the mark and you guys are like super all about it, then the rest will come. Yeah. Because the hype train will just plow through anything and then people will just spend the money. Correct. And honestly, I think that that really is, if they do it, that should be kind of the route they take versus doing a dumbed down, you know, stripped down Harry Potter telling and just say, you know what, this thing's huge, it's one of the biggest licenses ever to exist, YOLO. Just Leroy Jenkins, Leroy Jenkins this shit and just go.
    66:53
    Leroy Jenkins, hello. We obviously have a World of Warcraft history that we've only just realising. You've got that, mate. I'm not going to tell anyone.
    67:04
    Anyway. But in any case, speaking of the virtual Pinball world as well, I did notice, it was reported a couple of weeks ago, but there's looking to be a new video game that's coming out on PC, I'm assuming because it's on Steam, called Super Mechanic. And there's not too much about this. I will link it to the Steam page, but effectively they're building a video game where you can actually work on pinball machines, like actually repair them. Like build them and repair them, which I think for me is more a tutorial than a game. That's how I would view it, yes. That's how I would view it as well. Because ultimately when I owned machines, I don't know about you, but like I fully think that I could work on a machine and I could figure it out. And I am certainly smart enough and mechanically inclined to be able to do it. But I can't get over the terrified, what if I fuck it up? What if I do it wrong in the learning process and I break my $7,000 machine? I never got over that. I'm worth it because I, well, I'm fearful now because I've fucked up my machines that many times. And I have fucked up my machines that many times because I have been fearless. I've been fearless with no skill. So every time I open something up, I therefore make it worse because I don't take my time to work out exactly what I'm doing. I just go, oh, you know, that wire looks like it's bent. I'll just change that wire. Oh, on a second, that just snapped off. How did that happen? Oh, shit. Now I've got a solder back. That's okay. I will just put solder over four different things at once because I've had the solder drip everywhere because I have no experience with solder. But that's okay. I'll whip that off. Oh, hang on. And that whole socket has now come off. Oh, that's okay. Because surely I can put that, I can just punch that socket back in. Oh, what do you mean it's now cracked the board? That's, that's... Yeah. And how much does that cost to replace? Right. Dear Lord. It's a very real experience. Not exactly, but that's kind of what I'm like. So hopefully, we'll link it in the show notes. Have a look at it. It's coming into 2020. Should be a bit of fun. There's still some talk about people trying to make the space cadet machine that was in Windows, that they took out of Windows into a real machine. I'm just saying don't do it. I just didn't think it was that great a layout. It was good because it was free and it was Windows and you could play that instead of Solitaire when the boss wasn't watching.
    69:41
    Yeah, I do remember that. Well, when I looked back at the layout, I mean, I had fond memories of it, obviously, but, I mean, it looks like it could be fun, but, I mean, like anything, what are the rules? I mean, it's, I have, I mean, the one I'm more interested in is the one that still hasn't happened, which is, I don't know what happened to it, but, you know, the whole, what was that other one that they've been trying to make? Time Shock? Yeah, Time Shock. Yeah, same, because that's just a great layout. And that, we're talking about, well that just seems like maybe you might not be actually able to pull off what happens in the game. Yeah, probably too interesting. This one is kind of a pretty straightforward, you know, merge between like a Paragon and like a Lord of the Rings with the upper playfield thing. I think it could definitely be done, whether or not that ends up being good, I have no idea. But sure, if anyone wants to try it, by all means, more Pinball the better. So speaking of trying to pull things off and things that are virtual, let's talk about the Stern book.
    70:45
    That was good. I have it right in front of me and I still thought that was good. That was funny. So we actually did get an update from the people at Paperflock that are doing the Stern book and effectively, you know, they put out a poll for everybody that effectively said, Would you like us to keep going and really do a much better job on the book or would you like us just to go to print and release it now? 90% of people said keep going.
    71:19
    And I think I would say people have said keep going meaning guys we have already written off this as a loss. We don't expect ever to get this book, so just keep going. We don't care. It doesn't matter. We've moved on from that $200, $300 that we spent two years ago. Just do whatever. What do you think? Well, I mean, from outside looking in, I mean, obviously, as far as I'm concerned, by the creators, this is a passing of blame onto the backers. Because it more or less makes it so that they have a get-out-of-free card that, regardless of what happens at this point, whether or not they voted to give me the shit now, they could then say, well, you guys, we told you it wasn't going to be done, so it's not our fault that you got a shit product because this is what you asked us to do. If it takes longer and it doesn't work out well, they can then come back and go, well, you guys told us to keep going, so we tried to keep going, and it just didn't work. So I think that this is a complete cop-out on their part. I mean, hopefully it gets there, because I've obviously lived through your podcast of your sufferings through this, and I personally have suffered similarly in a different project, so I can see how this is super frustrating. Yeah, Kickstarter's just shit, I think, in general. You've obviously had a bad experience. I've had a lot of bad experiences now. I have vowed never, ever to pre-fund anything now. So, all these things, you can just get fucked, as far as I'm concerned. Well, I just, I mean, I've backed, I mean, I don't know, 30, 40 things at this point, and literally I've only had a problem with one. One was a catastrophic one, but, I mean, I definitely wouldn't write, you just gotta be careful with who you back, pretty much. Like with mine, it's funny because my other main hobby is board gaming. And when I got into it maybe like 8, 10 years ago or something along those lines, you know, Catan would just come out and one of my friends had it. And we played it. Have you played that before? No, I don't have it. Settlers of Catan. Yeah. So it has like this board. It's the hexagon. You put hexes in it. Yeah, so you have this board and this puzzle piece board and it was always warping and these tiles didn't fit right in the middle. So it was really annoying. So then this Kickstarter came up and more or less they were offering a solution to fix that. They were going to make plastic boards that held the hexes and everything neatly in place. And they also came with this nice storage solution to store all your Catan stuff instead of the six boxes it came in. So, wow, cool. So they did do that. And at the beginning, they were licensed directly from the creators of Settlers Catan. All these nice graphics, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, like, through the process, the company, it seemed like it wasn't working out. So then the company backed out mid-project, so it turned into this huge shitstorm. So long story short, the game, it didn't happen. Eventually vendors ended up selling some of the stuff that they had that had to do with the original guy. So I ended up buying it because at this point I was like, well, I'm going to get something out of this. So I ended up getting more or less what I originally backed, but it came, say, four years after when the original product, which at which point Catan is not what it was. And I've graduated to way better games. So now I have this relic in time that we try to force to the table here and there because other people do enjoy the game. But it's like, it was this terrible thing and traumatic thing in my life where it was by far the worst experience I've ever had on Kickstarter.
    75:34
    And then finally when it came, you were happy you had it, but then you realized its function and its purpose no longer was relevant in the slice of time that now you exist versus when you backed it originally.
    75:47
    But it's sitting behind me and it's this nice little reminder that... Yeah. Hmm. Anyway. Hopefully you still get yours. I mean, it might take a long time, but at least if you're looking at an attitude of, whatever, I'm never going to expect this, eventually it's going to show up and be like, ooh, surprise. Well, I'm never going to get my headphones. I'm never going to get my gaming watch. Maybe I will get a book that was really not that all that important to me. Yeah, I would stay away from electronics and stuff like that. Where you're kicking and starting a company. Yeah. That's where things get a little sketchy. I'll never do that again. Yeah, there you go. Just a couple of things that happened for me this week. I am first of all really keen to know how the NYC PC Championship went. I mean, it was super fun. I'm glad I got to go this year. I didn't make it last year. By the time I realized it was a thing, it was well sold out. So didn't get a chance to go last year. But yeah, it was really fun. Got to go with me and my friend Nick and then Leslie joined a couple days in. She came on Saturday. We went down on Thursday night to go to do the VIP tournament, which was unbelievable. I don't know if you saw the videos and the different various pictures that were up of that collection. Did you get to see those? No, I didn't. Tell me more. Oh, my God. So it's in downtown Manhattan. So we go there. We're trying to park. Parking, weirdly enough, we find a spot, which is where it's like, wow, that's weird. So we walk over and there's just a guy in a suit chilling outside a building. Well, that must be it. So we go there. You've got your name on a list. You have to have your name on a list to get up into the building and then go up in an elevator, Which went up to the roof, which is this is where it is, and to this guy's game room. Which I tried to find out, I thought, wow, this is a great, like, what an apartment or a condo or something. And then later on I started talking like that, and then people were there talking, they're like, what's hard, he doesn't live here. I'm like, oh shit, really? Like, this is his game room? And it's just literally his game room. And like so the elevator goes up to the top, you come out, you come out on like a roof deck, like it's like a loft and just beautiful view of the city. There's chairs, everything up there, it's gorgeous. And then you turn to the right and there's this glass stairwell that goes downstairs into like just a giant, I don't know, like a studio type shape. It's huge. And then it's all of this, I forgot how many games there were, maybe like 16 games or 20 games or something like that, all like pristine, the best games, the best versions of every game that you'll ever see. Like they had Ellie Metallica, Ellie Deadpool, Ellie, they had a remake Monster Bash, they had, what's that, what's that, That's Stern that I get to see once every three years. That's Stern. Stargazer. It's like a pristine Stargazer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone loves it. And it was crazy. And, you know, it had its own bar. They had a vending machine that was just free. It was on free play, Martin. It was on free play. It just had beer and drinks and everything in it. You could just go get what you want. Let me just take it back if I can. It's crazy. So this was outside of the New York City Pinball Championship. This was like a VIP event. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, so it was like a pre-tournament. It was $75 and it was open to 55 people, I want to say. I think something along those lines. It was a knockout tournament and pretty much it was $75 to get you in and it included food, drinks, and it was amazing. And I think Jeff was there, most of the people, Jeff was there, Steve Bowden was there.
    79:56
    A lot of the, most of the people who, a lot of the people who were playing at New York City also came in early to play in that event. And how did you go in that event?
    80:07
    I came in second. Oh my god. But yeah, it was a standard three-strike tournament, and I was playing great all night. I didn't get a strike until maybe three or four rounds left, and I got one because apparently if you can't hit spinners on Starphazer, it's hard to get points. Right. So that was my first strike and then I went into, eventually I went into finals and it was me against Sean Grant and the first game was on Iron Maiden. He only had one strike, I had two strikes. I beat him on that and then unfortunately going into the last round by figuring out what games I had not played yet, there was only one game I had not played yet and that was T2. And I do not enjoy or am overly good at playing that game. The specific copy was also very hard to actually shoot things with a cannon so you can figure out how that went down. So that didn't work out, but it was super fun.
    81:17
    Okay. And so then, well, you know, second is not bad. Did you get like prize money or anything, like maybe a free machine? No? It was, I want to say 175 per second plus trophy. Weirdly, I'm happy I came in second because I got the better trophy. The trophies were maybe four different New York City things you might find in a gift shop on pedestals. So, like, the first place was just, like, I think the Empire State Building or maybe the Statue of Liberty. But the second place one was a gorilla, like, on the Empire State Building. So I'm like, yeah, it's King Kong. So I'm like, nah, I got the better trophy. I like mine better. And there was only, I think first place was only, like, maybe $50 or $25 more. So I'm just perfectly content. And this went to like 2 in the morning, which ended up very, very late. But thankfully, the New York City Championships didn't start on Friday until 5 o'clock. So we slept till like 2 and headed over to the main event. So then tell us about the main event. So this is the first, I guess, type of tournament that's overly like this. So it's in this hotel, and it's in like a conference room type thing. And they had one end of the room, they had all of the main bank games. And then on the side of the room, they had the classic games, which they maybe were like eight or so. And then they had the, I think, four women's games. And then on the opposite end, on the other side, were free play games. There weren't too many that were working, but mainly there was a Pirates of the Caribbean and a Willy Wonka over there. So finally, if you remember our conversation last time about Pirates of the Caribbean and why I hadn't really played one, and my angst about going to try one near us because of the hour drive it would take and how it doesn't seem to be working some of the times. So we actually went to go try and play the one that's here.
    83:38
    And lo and behold, we show up and it's missing a flipper, Robert. So I'm like, well, that's great. We're never going to get to play one of these. So thankfully we got to play both Willy Wonka and Pirates of the Caribbean as they were on free play the entire event. So I can give a little more insight on those games. We can talk about that later. So yeah, so then on the first day it was Classics and Main, just full pump and dump qualifying, which I believe this is the first time I've ever done pump and dump qualifying before. I can't think of a previous way. I've done Pomp-A-Style, but I think this is the first full-blown pay and get your best score thing. Oh, actually, that's not true. I did Pinfest like two weeks before. But this was way more enjoyable than that. These games were actually set playable and fair and everything like that.
    84:31
    But yeah, so I spent the Logic again, so not really, this is also the first event I've been to that really had a classics division.
    84:40
    And like Papa, I didn't really play the classics when I would go to that event because that really wasn't my thing. And seeing other people play there, like, I don't get it. I don't have a shot playing those things. But I was like, well, I'm going to give it a shot. And it seemed by the way that the hours were scheduled. So Friday was 5 till midnight. And then that's both divisions. And then Saturday was 10 a.m. to 5 for classics. And then 10 till midnight for the main division. So my logic was like, okay, I'm going to try and qualify and classics. And then once I've felt comfortable with that, I'll start playing in the main. So I don't know what point during the night on the first day I put up some good scores. I was the second qualifier for classics, so I started spending some time over in the main division, got some good scores there. I was, I don't know, 12th or so in the main division. And I put up, which is probably, which is the only game that I think I was on stream for, well the second game, the first game was garbage on Transformers, but I got back on it again after watching some other people doing it. And it was funny because I was having issues with the Megatron feed, and I lost I think two balls on it the first attempt I had. That's the eject.
    86:04
    Yeah, yeah, it hits the right sling and then, so like normally, If it's consistent, it tends to hit the right swing and then go into the flipper area, so you can just hold up the flipper or do something with that, and then it's a predictable feed. This one was super bipolar, and just like, sometimes it would do that, sometimes it would hit the left sling too, and it would do all this weird stuff. So like, the first time I tried it, I think I lost two balls with just trying, with just guessing wrong on how that was going. So I'm like, I have to go, and it was on stream, so I'm like, I gotta go watch, see what the heck other people are doing. And they were on there and they were going to switch games and they're like, oh no, no, no, no, we're going to stay on because Jason Wordrich come up, he has this game, he's going to show us how to play this game. So watching him, he puts up a great score, he puts up like 52, I think, 52 million. And I'm like, oh crap, and I was next in the queue, so I got over there before they could switch the game. So based on kind of what he was doing, seeing how he was handling the feed, which ended up the correct answer most of the time was once it hit the right swing, flip with the left one, and it would mostly be controllable in some way. So I was able to figure that out. So I put up, I think, $68 million, and that was quite the grind. And I ended up having the number one score on that for the weekend. I don't think anyone else wanted to invest that amount of time into doing that.
    87:34
    But this tournament, just going sort of like the bigger picture of the tournament, this attracts very good players. Now we've mentioned before last time we're on, top 50, there or thereabouts, we're rounding up, aren't we? But, you know, obviously you've mentioned Jason Werdrick, I know that obviously Steve Bowden was there, I, uh, Kaeith was there, Kaeith Elwin, big, big night. Pretty much all the big ones were there, really. I mean, Raymond, um, like I mentioned, Kaeith was there, Lyman was there, Elwin. So, I mean, it was, yeah, it was a lot of people. And I'm 51 right now. And after these events are, I'll actually be able to say I'm actually top 50. How's that go in? Sure.
    88:21
    Yeah, so more or less what the thing is is you play a game. So in the main division they were taking six games, so your best six games were going to count towards giving you enough points to make the division. And the way the system was working is top score was a 200 and then it was like 190 and then like 185 and then it all degraded from there. So, I mean, the cut line was probably around 1,030-ish, I think is what the cut line ended up being. So after I put in my games and you know I was above the cut and then Saturday came and I started bleeding out on classics going from the second seed and this is when a lot of the some of the big people start showing up Keeith showed up and other people are trying harder as apparently that how these events go you never safe So I started bleeding out, so I was starting to get really worried that I wasn't going to make classics, so I started playing Wizard over and over and over and doing terrible on Terra, and I never was able to improve my score. But I ended up making classics. I think I was the 12th seed, I believe.
    89:34
    But with that, I also didn't get to do any main playing during that. So at this point, I was getting towards the cut line, and I was starting to get a little worried about that. But I made classics and got through the rounds. I mean, one of the rounds I went head-to-head with Raymond Davidson and it was going back and forth and on Wizard he put up, because I think it was going for the last game, no, the second game, he put up 60,000 on ball one for Wizard. which, I mean, most of the qualifying scores were like 100k on fideball. So, I mean, I was like, whoa! And then I got up there and after playing, and once the game was packed, I'm like, oh man, because I mean, the first round, I didn't get to play any of the games that I qualified on or even played on. So I was just thankful to get through that round because I'm like, oh man, I don't know any, I mean, I know the games, but I didn't play any of them. But the second round, I got to play Wizard and he picks Wizard and I'm like, great, I spent, I put in like eight entries on this stupid thing trying to get better. And I couldn't break 100k on the thing. And here he goes, just puts up 60k on ball one. I'm like, this is great. This is wonderful. And I had an awesome first ball and I put up like 70k. And I was just on cloud nine. And then from there, I was playing great. I rolled Monaco the next game and got into the finals. And it was me, Bowen, Ian, and I don't remember who the first. I know who I can picture his face, but I can't think of his name.
    91:15
    But, yeah, it was, I made some mistakes along the way that ultimately I paid for, but looking back, I don't know what I was thinking. Like on Monaco, everyone was chatting when they were on the left, if you know that game. Like if you're on the left flipper, really your choices are chats or shoot the bonus collect. Right, because it's either it's spinner on the left or collect scoop on the right reeling. Yep, pretty much. Or maybe you go for the middle if it happens to give you double bonus. So I had a trap left, and I don't know what I was thinking. I tried to post-transfer like a moron, and I lost the ball. And then on my fifth ball, I mean, I only needed like 10k. I was very close to beating Bowen on this game. He had like maybe 680 and I was at like 600 or 640. And on my last ball, I was trapped up on the right and I'm like, oh, double bonus is lit. I had 50K. I backhand double bonus, got double bonus, get control of the ball. It's coming down the left-in lane. And in my head, I'm going, well, I can't collect this because the collect is single and I'll screw myself with a double bonus. So I panic and shoot and just try and – so I'm like, I'm going to shoot the middle. I'm going to shoot the middle and not collect. And of course I died. And I was just like, oh man, stupid. That's the stuff that just comes with experience that I just do not have.
    92:43
    Just because stuff like that was just happening and immediately afterwards I went, you're a moron. What are you doing there? Just take it. Everyone else was like, yeah, you should have just done that. And then the last game, I ended my game on Satin Doll with getting double flippered, which was awesome. So I made a slap save and I slapped both sides and then was like, oh crap.
    93:12
    And went through the double right flipper and that was the end of my game and I ended up coming in third because Ian passed me. So who came in second and who won? I came in third, Ian came in second and Bowen won, of course. He had it wrapped up by the third game. I think he built heat every single game because he's Bowen.
    93:30
    So that's how that panned out. So third, I was perfectly happy with it. I got this awesome plaque, which it's really cool. I don't know if you saw them, but the top has this cool picture of people playing pinball in the rain. It's just really art that goes black and white picture, which is awesome. And it was $600, which perfectly, that was awesome. That's my second biggest plot ever made. And then, you know, but because of that, that went really late. That went, I think finals went until 10 or so, 10.30. So then all of a sudden it's like, oh crap, I'm under the cut line.
    94:08
    And I have like an hour and a half left. So I look at my card and, you know, I have a two high of the number one score on Transformers. I have a 179, a 173. I'm literally 10 points-ish. From the cut line. And my lowest score is 139, I think, on Alien Star. So you look at that and you go, oh, if I just improve my Alien Star, I'll be fine. Like, I literally just need to not have a garbage game on Alien Star. So what did I do? I just kept pounding Alien Star. Now, Alien Star was set up super nasty. I mean, it had no outlaying posts and it was just, it was mean. And I think I tried like six or seven times on it, just throwing myself against that wall. The wall's harder than me, and it did not help at all. So, and then towards the end, I'm like, fuck it, I need to try and play something else. And the lines were too long. I think at the final chance I got in on Cosmic Gunfight, it was just before the buzzer. I started the game, and I just couldn't hit a damn thing, and that was the end of it. And looking back, because I tried to do Whirlwind because I've really, that's again an experience thing where I just don't have what it takes with knowing what to do. I tried to get in on Whirlwind, but it was too late and Sean Grant put up a monster game and it was no way I was going to get to play that. But if I had thought of that and just said, hey, why don't you just pick a game that has modern flippers, that's controllable, that you can just put up a mediocre score? Because that's all you need. All I needed was like a million on Whirlwind. But I got Tunnel Vision and I didn't think of that. And if I had just played Whirlwind a couple times, I probably would have made the main. But you had your classics, so that's cool. I'm completely happy with that. And lessons learned. That's the main point. As long as you learn what you did. And we got to go home early on. We got to just go home on Sunday. So that was delightful. So then how did the finals actually go? I'm curious to know who was in. Was there any dramas? Was there any sort of great moments that happened? And I guess what I'm asking really is did Keith win? You tell me, how did the finals go for the main tournament? Oh, Martin, you're adorable asking that question.
    96:41
    You're so naive. Of course, Keefe won. I know. Spoiler alert, everybody. I know. Who saw that coming, right? But was it a runaway for him? I've not actually really gone into detail on to all the different rounds and what he was scoring.
    96:57
    Everyone just sort of said, yeah, of course he won. Yeah, I mean, no, it wasn't a runaway. It wasn't like Fowen was in the classics where he just won every game and that was the end of it. It was close. It went into, you know, I think it went into the final game with there being chances for him to lose.
    97:17
    I mean, I know that there was drama with the first game, which I'm sure you're aware of, because it turned into a massive threat and all sorts of fun. Rolling Stones. I don't know. Was this the one about the death save? No, so apparently on Rolling Stones, I mean, when we were watching it live, we were talking to each other trying to figure out what was going on or if I just didn't know enough about the game. But at one point, Ray was playing and he trapped up, something weird happened, something triggered, gave him something that he didn't deserve. So he trapped up, got a ruling, they told him to play on.
    98:01
    And then later on, Jerry was playing and he started a multi-ball, but the other balls didn't come out right away and a malfunction came up on the screen with a gate that's like the amp suit gate. It's got that on the mode start shot. So then it eventually plugged into balls and everything seemed fine. So it just seemed like the game was just being weird. And then I think on the next ball, right, Steve Spouten was plunging and it gave him the super skill shot before even like making the super skill shot. And then come on the final ball, it all just started going really weird. Like that gate was giving multiple triggers for scoring points. And like during Raymond's ball, he got a ton of points or someone got, or Jerry's ball. Someone got a massive amount of points that seemingly didn't be deserved because the game was malfunctioning. So the game ends, they show like, oh, this is the order, blah, blah, blah. So then they go back to the commentators and they're talking and then there's this huge gap between them starting the game and we're like, oh, what's going on? So I guess that they made a ruling and they voided the game because they were able to prove going into a test or some other thing that they were able to prove that there was something wrong with like a Switch Matrix that was causing phantom hits and it wasn't consistent and something along those lines. So they voided the game, and from reading and what everyone, I think, I'm pretty sure I remember them saying on the stream, like, Tim came on to explain it, what had happened, and he was like, you know, they're given, they voided the game, and Keith was given the choice to pick a new game or re-pick that game. I'm pretty sure that's what they said on the stream. But, um, so, Keith chose to pick Alien Star, and that was the end of that. So they replayed that game and then went through. And then after the fact, a lot of people on Silver Arms and I was brought up and were kind of wondering what happened with that ruling. Why was, you know, Ray told that it was playing on? And then after the fact, the game was voided and no one ever seen anyone void a game after the fact or after it was over. And then also the fact that Keith was given the choice to pick a different game if they had repaired it, Which seemed like they had said that they did repair it, but they didn't force him to replay that specific game.
    100:43
    Yeah, that guy gave him a choice, yeah. Yeah, which, I mean, as a TD myself, I find that weird, but, I mean, that's the TD's call. I don't know, but if it was actually repaired, and maybe they just misspoke and said that it was repaired, but it actually wasn't repaired, so it wasn't really an option, which would make that argument moot. But if it was repaired, I don't understand personally why you wouldn't make them play that game because it seems kind of like, oh, well, we just played this. I just saw everyone crush it except for me, so I'm picking something else.
    101:17
    Not that Keith would do that because obviously he doesn't care what other people do. And everyone's like, wow, he picked Alien Star. And then people are like, yeah, well, because he saw whatever one was. And apparently when he picked it, he's like, let's get this shit over with or something like that. So it's like, that wasn't even why he picked it, he just wanted a quick game. He would have done it. He has to move it on. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think that the order changed very slightly between the games, you know, and it's unfortunate, but that's how stuff happens. And the TDs and other people brought up good points of being the fact that during that game and other people were saying, oh, yeah, this was doing this earlier and blah, blah, blah. And the TDs, you know, at which point TDs are like, what the fuck? Why didn't no one tell me this? Like why are you telling me that you noticed this earlier and now I'm just hearing about it now? No, I know. And you know, I'm like that as a TD as well. People come up and say, well, it's been happening. It's like, well, how do I know where's the evidence? Because in order to make a proper ruling, you've actually got to see evidence or you've got to have the equivalent is, I reckon, probably three or four people all saying the same thing.
    102:28
    Exactly. It's hard to take those rulings, but that's the big thing is that people, you know, if you see something, say something. Yeah. Or else I can't help you as a TD. Exactly. Like, it's not in my court at that point. So there you go. So Keefe one, that's fantastic. I will say that I did see, when it was on the finals in particular, I was sort of out. I think it was a Saturday during the day and I was with my kids and that was lots of fun. But I was told to tune in for a special performance.
    103:04
    Oh boy. So, which I think that you and I have very interesting perspectives on this. As an outsider looking in, where I wasn't really, I couldn't really follow the finals, so it was just fun to watch Levy play in his band. I think they were called like the Nobs or something. And I, for the first time, got to see live, you can't see my inverted commas, but Sean the Storm Grant did a bit of a performance. And my question to you, Joe, is did you heed the storm warning?
    103:43
    Yeah, I wish that there was a storm warning and files were postponed until the storm was over. It looked like fun. I mean, yeah, if it's in a vacuum, I'm sure I would have enjoyed it and thought it was funny like everyone else. But in the zone that I was in where, you know, finals was, it's like, okay, we're ready for finals. And then the groups are made, we're ready to go. And they're like, okay, well, now we have to hold off on finals because we have to play a song. And then we're going to do this other thing. And then you guys can start. So it's like, okay, fine. So, you know, they play a song, we finally start finals, and then, you know, and then Sean goes up, and it's just like this huge spectacle right behind us with loud music, and it's just like, it's like, I, as a competitor, as, you know, as Pinball as being my focus when I'm there, I don't understand the logic of choosing to do that when finals starts. Like, that could have been done all during the day. It could have been later in the night when finals was over or even earlier rounds or just before finals started. Like, I mean, I found it distracting, but, you know, I'm but I'm not the type of person that will use that as an excuse for my play. But I know that I was certainly annoyed by it when it was going on. Why is this going on right now? The whole times. Okay, so we had this discussion. I think when Levy was on and we talked about it. I think when Jimmy Nails was on last week as well and that's about the loud commentary over the PA and I think there's pluses and minuses and I think the pluses are it does create that festival vibe where you've actually got that noise that's happening so as a spectator I think it can create a bit of an excitement and I also said this last week as a competitor I find that stuff really annoying. I find people talking next to me or right behind my ear really annoying when I'm playing and that was when I started using headphones and I know people have got all their pros and cons about using headphones and I think a lot of people that don't just look at it and think it's either it's a bit ridiculous, B, it's probably a bit over the top and unnecessary and C, makes you look a bit silly. But for me, where anything around me that can distract me, and I can get distracted very, very easily, I need to tune that out. So for me, headphones, but I'm assuming you're not a headphone wearer?
    106:30
    Uh, no, I'm not. I mean, well, yeah, I mean, I have noise cancelling headphones, and I use it. Yeah, like, I use it at work when I just can't deal with people and such. As far as playing, I tried it once and I just found that it was more distracting than anything it could possibly... Yeah, that's what people would say, yeah. Yeah, because for me, I have to hear the game because the game is telling me what I should do most of the time or what I should make sure I don't do. And when I'm playing, I can focus in where almost nothing can bother me, so the headphones aren't necessarily needed. I mean, yeah, I wish I had them for this, because it really was a distraction, but to go to your point about you're talking about commentating and all this stuff, Like, commentating, I have no issues for, I have no issues about, because ultimately that's, I mean, ultimately the big difference is that, you know, that's pinball related, because this is not pinball related, so you're being distracted by things that are not about what's going on, whereas if it's commentary, then it's just, you know, at least it's about pinball, so I can't, dude, you can, it's commentary, so I completely get that. I get that too, but I lump those into the same thing. In fact, I would probably have the music, the bands playing, I would be more happy with that than commentating because bands just noise, so there's nothing I can really tune into. But commentators, I'm kind of, what are they saying? Are they commentating on what I am? And I remember many, many years ago when we used to have tournaments at, it was like a pop culture event called Supernova. It's kind of like a Comic Con type thing. They still have them, but we used to have pinball tournaments run at these events, and they used to always have the pinball section set up right next to the wrestling section. And by wrestling, I mean an actual wrestling arena with fans chanting, and here's blah blah from Werribee or whatever it is, right? And so that's what was happening when we were in a pinball tournament. So, I don't know, and that was really early on. That was kind of like five, six years ago when I first started getting into competitive pinball. So for me, it was kind of like, well, that stuff's going to happen.
    109:01
    Either I do something about it or I don't. And again, that was the whole genesis of me putting headphones on. And I get the same thing where you say, well, you know, you want to hear the call-outs of the machine. For me, I think the balance is for me is in the favor of having headphones on, not hearing the call outs of the pinball machine, but being able to concentrate more and maybe using my eyes to see what's going on in the machine. Yeah, and I think that in that example, with that being so prevalent, you kind of knew the environment you were playing in, so it was a consistent thing that you played during and were used to, or you were able to make plans for, whereas this was like... No, it was a surprise. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, it didn't happen on day one, and it didn't happen for, you know, 90% of day two. So I didn't even, because of that, I didn't even bring my headphones because I didn't think that that would be something that I would have to deal with. So it wasn't, it was more just like, all right, this is the environment you're playing in, and then all of a sudden it's this. And it wasn't, you know, with it just, and tons of people in the crowd were screaming out and, you know, reacting and stuff because they were having a good time. But those peaks and valleys is what can be jarring of being like, okay, and then, ah! And you're like, okay, whoa.
    110:26
    I mean, it was just, for me, I just think it was bad timing, and I just wish it wasn't during the finals. It could have done it in earlier rounds or just after the finals was over, but it's... You've got to fit around his schedule. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was really... It looked like a lot of fun and people were getting into it. Yeah. I wasn't there. If I could remove myself from the competitive part of that environment, I'm sure I would have enjoyed it too. Awesome. But I had other folks at that point.
    111:00
    Oh, good. Have I ever talked to you about Pinsetian before? Have I ever spoken to you about insert cult book here? But all I'm just saying is for those people, so I've actually now just got my fusions back on my Star Trek and oh my god, they're just spectacular. But all I just wanted to say is that if you put the code head-to-head at pinstadium.com, you'll get a discount. I think it's 10%, something like that. It might even be 15%, probably 10%. But if you go through, because in Australia we've also got MrPinball, so mrpinball.com.au also is the distributor for Pinstadiums here. And I think he's got them at like $3.79 and with the, so that's for the Sennepin Stadiums with Yubi Glow. That's actually now, because of the dollar that we've got being really bad, it's actually cheaper to go directly via Mr. Pimball. And if you mention head-to-head, he'll give you free shipping. And the reason why I'm also bringing up Mr. Pimball is because this Thursday is when we're having the launch of Willy Wonka. This will be at the Bayside Pinball Club at the Sandbelt Hotel in Moorabbin. So it's this Thursday the 30th. So come along because the Willy Wonka will be there on free play for the entire night. And there will also be a competition there, a regular monthly competition as well. So come along to that. Wow, the actual Willy Wonka? The actual Willy Wonka. I didn't think he was with us anymore. Yeah, he is. Obviously, the machine, you dick. But also, whilst I'm here shilling things and pimping out, let me pimp out some stuff of my own. So, my merch has arrived. So, I actually went to my own store and ordered T-shirts and a mug and a cap. The T-shirts are freaking amazing. The mug is amazing. The cap was shit out. So, I've now just taken it off the store. It was just not great. So, but everything else was great. But also if you are listening to this between June 1 and June 4, there's actually free shipping if you type in shipit19 at the cart. I'm assuming it is. Anyway.
    113:15
    Promo code. Yep, there you go, promo code. And the only other thing that really happened this week, which sort of leads into the mail of the week as well, is that Coast to Coast with Nate Shivers has finally ended, officially.
    113:33
    Yes, I saw that on the plane while flying to training this week. He actually posted the episode. And I immediately listened to it. Yeah, and it was, I don't know, it was great and it was sad. You know what I mean? Because it's like in the end of an era, Nate was the person that just absolutely set the standard for Pinball Podcast that everybody has been able to leverage from. Even if your podcast is radically different to his, you have benefited from him popularizing the Pinball Podcast. I think he called out a few things about how drama is really bad for the industry and really his most number one downloaded episode was the John Popadook one and that just highlights people just love drama. And, you know, we have it. People fire off criticism at us all the time, particularly on our Pinside thread. And I just read it and I just think, oh, fuck me, you know, just well done. Congratulations for your shitty contribution. But I also want to just pay out the fact that there's also a lot of really good people that are really supportive, not just of podcasts, but of me and what I'm doing. And like, you know, Joe, I said to you last time you were on, a lot of people outreached to me and said how great you were on the show. And I obviously told you that you were great on the show. And that stuff's good. And that stuff outweighs the negative. And that's the reason why I wanted to read this email that I got from Nick. And I know Nick. Nick's from Queensland. And he said, hey, Marty, great job on the interview with Jimmy and promoting Pinball in Australia. Really well put. Good message. Very positive and enjoyable. I laughed really hard at the pro-rom in the premium. Yeah, we all laughed at that. I was in tears. I just listened to the last Coast to Coast Pinball podcast and felt compelled to remind you how important your show is to me. Catch you online and at the Masters. Cheers, Nick.
    115:40
    And normally I wouldn't read out those kinds of emails and I know you commented on the show notes because it's a bit funny where I'm reading out someone saying how important my show is to them. But I just wanted to read that out because with all the shit that happens in this hobby, which there is a lot, and there's a lot of it that's been flung at Head to Head's Way, and at Kaneda's Way, and at Slam Tilt, and at Jeff Teolis, and at every fucking person that goes out of their way each week to, for me, six to ten hours a week goes into producing this podcast. It gets really down sometimes when people just are shitty because they can be. And I just wanted to read that one out because I spoke to Nick online when he was watching my stream the other night. And I just wanted to say thank you to everybody that supports the podcast. We will keep going with the podcast. I have been questioning it over the last few weeks just because my work is getting really busy at the moment and this is a lot of effort. But it's great having people like Joe Lemire come on the show and I expect we may see a bit more of you. What do you think? I am here whenever you need me, buddy. Awesome. But as far as, like, I mean, it's very important to be very clear and like you mentioned, like, the positivity, there's way more positivity than there is negativity. But sometimes, like you said, the negativity, it's hard to just ignore or to not focus on because a lot of times you focus on the small one negative thing instead of the great positive thing and you get tunnel vision and you start thinking when ultimately it doesn't even matter. And it's just, if a lot of people really enjoy this podcast and everyone else's podcast, then most of the time it's all positive and just that's what matters. The people are just going to be unhappy sometimes and they have no problem telling you, but know you are loved, sir. Thank you. Well, I'm enjoying it. We're all still enjoying it. Thanks everybody for continuing to listen. Our numbers are as strong as they've ever been. So I'm just glad that people liked the transition into the new world and we'll see how it's going to evolve. But it's actually just really a big massive thank you to everybody that listens and people that provide feedback, good and bad. It's all listened to and it all, you know, I try to make this a better podcast as a result. So thank you to everybody. And we do it for them, right? That's exactly why we do it. We do it because we can and because we just want to share some news and tell some stories and have a bit of a laugh and bag some shit out where we can, but ultimately we do it because it's fun.
    118:36
    Absolutely. So thank you very much, Joe, for coming on. I'm sure we will see you very, very soon again on this show and really appreciate it. Thanks for having me, man. No worries. Thanks, everybody. We'll speak again next week. Bye now.