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Ep 77 - Do you feed the pinball trolls?

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·59m 50s·analyzed·Nov 6, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Post-Expo pinball news covers game updates, facility expansion, and speculation on awards and Deep Root's Houston reveal.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill host Special When Lit Ep 77, discussing pinball industry news post-Expo including Spooky Pinball's upcoming announcement, American Pinball's new facility and redemption game expansion, Wizard of Oz light board issues and variants, Stern's Elvira House of Horrors shipping with minor reported issues and multiple code updates, Jurassic Park's prospects for Twippies Game of the Year, and Deep Root Pinball's RAZA prototypes coming to Houston Arcade Expo. The hosts debate whether Jurassic Park will win over Willy Wonka at the Twippies due to availability and exposure, and speculate on Deep Root's ability to deliver after Zidware settlement obligations.

Key Claims

  • Spooky Pinball is preparing to announce a new game next month

    high confidence · Dr. John's Spooky update: 'all is quiet in preparation for the new game possibly being announced next month'

  • Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle features an innovative Crypt Lock mechanic where stolen locks award points to both the original locker and the stealing player

    high confidence · Dr. John describing feature found on Pinside: 'if you do steal it from another player, not only do you get the multi-ball points, the player that originally locked it also gets a million points'

  • American Pinball released new facility at Ametronfest that is larger than the current location with room for more production

    high confidence · Kaz's American Pinball update: 'American Pinball also showed off their new pinball facility at Ametronfest. The new facility will be much larger than the current location and have room for more production'

  • Wizard of Oz has multiple versions of light boards (original, 2.0, 2.2, with daughter boards) with varying reliability issues

    high confidence · Ken Rudberg's Jersey Jack update and host discussion: 'I look at it as three different [categories]. I have the 7.5 light boards' and discussion of Ruby Red edition requiring light board swaps

  • Wizard of Oz light board replacement costs approximately $800 and takes 10-20 hours of labor to install

    high confidence · Host discussion: 'How much is the light board set? Isn't it like $800?' confirmed, and 'light board swap...that's hours and hours of labor to get those swapped out like 10 to 20'

  • Elvira House of Horrors LE models are shipping with some owners reporting minor mechanical issues (balls stuck in castle, crypt door problems, node board errors)

    high confidence · Craig's Stern update: 'some owners are reporting minor mechanical issues with balls getting stuck in the castle or crypt doors not opening, as well as some minor node board errors'

  • Stern released Elvira code version 86 with significant bug fixes, additional polish, and game enhancements

    high confidence · Craig's Stern update: 'V.86 is now available for all models. This code contains significant bug fixes, additional polish, and game enhancements'

Notable Quotes

  • “This, I reckon, is the most unique thing I've ever heard in pinball.”

    Dr. John @ ~7:30 — Describes innovative Crypt Lock feature in Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle as unprecedented in pinball design

  • “if the redemption games become ultimately more lucrative because the costs are lower to produce, the profits bigger, and they make more money. What's the point of making pinball at that point, right?”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~18:20 — Expresses concern that American Pinball's redemption game business could cannibalize pinball development, drawing parallel to Williams' shift to slots

  • “I wish the boards were a little cheaper to upgrade to the 2.0. And I wish it was easier to figure out what the heck you're dealing with with the boards, because I think there's more than two versions of boards.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~27:00 — Highlights Wizard of Oz light board upgrade challenges for secondhand buyers

  • “Wizard of Oz...still looks like it's advanced for its time...it kind of changed a little bit of the pinball landscape.”

    Bill @ ~32:30 — Acknowledges Wizard of Oz as a game-changing innovation in pinball history

  • “I don't see how Wonka has a chance. I think it finishes second, but I just don't even know that it's close.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~47:20 — Makes explicit prediction that Jurassic Park will win 2024 Twippies Game of the Year over Willy Wonka due to availability and exposure

  • “Dude, what if this game makes everybody that bought an Elvirus say, what the hell did I just do?”

    Bill @ ~71:00 — Speculates that Deep Root's RAZA could be so superior it creates buyer's remorse for recent Elvira purchasers

  • “If it bleeds, it leads, right, especially in pinball. All we talk about is a lot of negative crap it seems like lately.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~62:00 — Commentary on pinball community's tendency toward negativity and criticism

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBillpersonDr. JohnpersonKazpersonBrian KosnerpersonKen RudbergpersonCraig BobbypersonCraigpersonJoshpersonDanpersonKeith Elwin

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Spooky Pinball preparing to announce new game next month

    high · Dr. John: 'all is quiet in preparation for the new game possibly being announced next month'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle introduces Crypt Lock mechanic where stolen locks reward both original locker and stealer with points

    high · Dr. John describes feature as 'the most unique thing I ever heard in pinball' with dual-reward steal mechanic

  • ?

    product_launch: Stern released third consecutive week of Elvira House of Horrors code updates (v86) with significant bug fixes

    high · Craig: 'for the third week in a row, Stern Pinball has posted a new Elvira code update...V.86 is now available'

  • ?

    product_concern: Elvira House of Horrors LE models shipping with reported mechanical issues (stuck balls, crypt doors, node board errors)

    high · Craig: 'some owners are reporting minor mechanical issues with balls getting stuck in the castle or crypt doors not opening, as well as some minor node board errors'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: American Pinball opened larger production facility at Ametronfest with increased capacity for pinball and redemption games

    high · Kaz: 'American Pinball also showed off their new pinball facility at Ametronfest. The new facility will be much larger than the current location'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.179

0:00
Disclaimer, no pinball employees or pinball personalities were harmed during the recording of this episode of the Special Winlet Pinball Podcast.
0:12
Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the Special Winlet Pinball Podcast starts now. Hello and welcome to episode number 77. It's the Special Winlet Pinball Podcast. What's going on pinball land? I'm Ken Cromwell. Today we're going to do our best to keep you informed and entertained for the next 30 to 45 minutes or so as we get involved in the pinball news or, I don't know, kind of a lack thereof. I think after Expo there really isn't anything major going on, but there's some pretty good talking points that I think we can share some banter with, Bill. But I think we've got some personal stories that we could entertain with for 45 minutes this week. It's always about the personal stories, and I know you've got a lot of personal things going on right now. We will get into that a little bit later, but first, let's get into the pinball news. Getting the news from around the industry in this week's Industry Buzz.
1:04
Hello from Dr. John with this week's special when lit spooky pinball update. Just a quick one as all is quiet in preparation for the new game possibly being announced next month. an interesting code feature that I don't think has ever been done before was mentioned on Pinside in Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle with the Crypt Lock, which is a single ball lock similar to a Denise lock on TNA. This can be stolen by another player, but what people are now finding out is if you do steal it from another player, not only do you get the multi-ball points, the player that originally locked it also gets a million points. This, I reckon, is the most unique thing I've ever heard in pinball. It's believed the feature can be turned off for tournament play, but I think it's just nice that whoever locked the ball gets the reward as well. And that's it for this week's update. We're waiting for new announcements, and I'm sure there'll be more to come. Catch you all next time. Hey, this is Kaz, your special and lit American Pinball correspondent. This past week, American Pinball released new code for Oktoberfest, version 19.10.24. Josh and Dan from American Pinball stopped by Studio C to join Ken and Steve on Monday Night Pinball as they streamed Oktoberfest for Flippin' Out Pinball Check out that stream if you missed it American Pinball also showed off their new pinball facility at Ametronfest The new facility will be much larger than the current location and have room for more production as American looks to produce Redemption Games and Pinball Hope everyone has a great week For American Pinball, this is Brian Kosner.

  • Jurassic Park likely has significantly more games in circulation and on location than Willy Wonka

    high confidence · Ken and Bill discussion: 'Significantly more' Jurassic Parks on location versus Wonka's; 'there's just so many more Jurassic Parks out there'

  • Deep Root Pinball's RAZA prototypes at Houston Arcade Expo will have playfield art (early version), minimal cabinet art, and hand-done toys, comparable to new-in-box machines but not fully completed

    high confidence · Ken's email from Robert: 'the prototypes...they're at the level most new-in-box pinball machines are at. But the Playfield art is an early version, minimal outer art'

  • Deep Root Pinball paid cash settlements to customers affected by the Zidware situation without requesting customer money upfront

    high confidence · Host discussion: 'they didn't ask for anybody's money and they paid money out for those that settled and wanted the cash settlement from the Zidware stuff'

    • “this is probably not the ideal way for them to reveal their games, it is a way to kind of say, all right, guys, this is what we're working on.”

    Bill @ ~59:00 — Frames Houston Arcade Expo as pivotal accountability moment for Deep Root after Zidware controversy

    person
    Robertperson
    Ryanperson
    Joeperson
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Chicago Gaming Companycompany
    Deep Root Pinballcompany
    Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
    Twippiesevent
    Houston Arcade and Pinball Expoevent
    Ametronfestevent

    business_signal: American Pinball expanding into redemption games; hosts express concern this could become more profitable than pinball, echoing Williams' historical shift

    high · Ken: 'If you're going to have redemption games...and that helps with funding the pinball, I mean, that's great. What would be unfortunate...is if the redemption games become ultimately more lucrative'

  • ?

    product_concern: Wizard of Oz has complex light board variants (original, 2.0, 2.2, daughter boards) with varying reliability; upgrades cost $800 and require 10-20 hours labor

    high · Ken Rudberg and host discussion detailing multiple board versions and upgrade challenges; Bill confirms Ruby Red also required light board swap

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Jurassic Park predicted to win 2024 Twippies Game of the Year over Willy Wonka due to higher availability and more player exposure, despite both being high-quality games

    high · Ken's explicit prediction: 'I don't see how Wonka has a chance...there's just so many more Jurassic Parks out there. People have more time on Jurassic Parks'

  • ?

    event_signal: Deep Root Pinball revealing RAZA prototypes at Houston Arcade Expo in ~1.5 weeks with playfield art, minimal cabinet art, hand-done toys at new-in-box level

    high · Ken's email from Robert: prototypes 'at the level most new-in-box pinball machines are at. But the Playfield art is an early version, minimal outer art'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Deep Root Pinball facing accountability pressure due to Zidware controversy; Houston Expo reveal described as 'pivotal weekend' that could shift community perception

    high · Bill: 'I think that this is going to be a pivotal weekend...if you go out there and it's disappointing...it's going to be easy for people to kind of turn the other cheek'

  • ?

    community_signal: Hosts observe pinball community has become increasingly negative and critical; discuss how some collectors will find faults regardless of quality

    high · Ken: 'All we talk about is a lot of negative crap it seems like lately'; Bill: 'there's going to be a collective of people that no matter what is being shown, they're going to find flaws or faults'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Hosts speculate on what next major pinball innovation might be; debate whether Deep Root or other manufacturers will introduce game-changing features

    medium · Ken: 'what is the next big innovation?...Is it going to be Deep Root? Are they going to bring it to us?'; discussion of potential LCD backbox and compact cabinet designs

    • 3:10
    screen in the back box. And there was even talk of real emeralds and rubies being included on the playfield at one point. There were initially two versions of this game that came out, both the standard version and the Emerald City Limited Edition with green armor, invisiglass, and a shaker motor. It was followed by the 75th Anniversary Limited Edition, also known as Ruby Red, which included several new toys including Toto in a Basket, Tornado, Castle Walls, and Lollipop rainbow targets. The most recent version to come out is the Yellow Brick Road Limited Edition, which is currently available, including yellow armor, sparkly playfield, and interestingly, missing the monkey mech in the back of the machine, which Jersey Jack has said is an unreliable mechanism. Some other interesting things to note about this machine are that it had major problems with the light boards in the machine, which have since been rectified with version 2.0 light boards. Some of the earlier games use direct print to cabinet, while others use decals on the cabinets. There are a lot of different versions of this game, so make sure you know what you're getting if you're buying in the used market. I'm Ken Rudberg, and that's your special wind-lit Jersey Jack update. Jurassic Park shines, Elvira LE's ship out, and Elvira code updates. Hey guys, Craig here again, your special wind-lit Stern News correspondent. Well, a bit of a slow week in the Stern world being fresh off the Chicago Expo, so as we are rounding the corner to the final couple of months of the year, a short list of games from all manufacturers are starting to take shape for potential nominations for the annual Twippies Game of the Year award. And although there are still two months of the year remaining for new releases, we should have a pretty good feel for what titles could be nominated. Based on extremely favorable reviews and online owner feedback on gameplay, theme integration, package in that now famous T-Rex toy mech, could Jurassic Park be one of the frontrunners from Stern for this prestigious award? We shall wait and see. Now on the Elvira House of Horror side, the LE models are now shipping and arriving at their lucky homes, and while most are reporting no issues, some owners are reporting minor mechanical issues with balls getting stuck in the castle or crypt doors not opening, as well as some minor node board errors. More observations will be needed to determine if these are isolated instances or a potential production issue, and some are also reporting that the new code updates are helping fix these minor problems, which is good news. And speaking of code, for the third week in a row, Stern Pinball has posted a new Elvira code update. Yes, V.86 is now available for all models. This code contains significant bug fixes, additional polish, and game enhancements, and can be downloaded via old-school Ethernet from the Stern website. That's all for this week. For Special When Lit, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side. Good deal. American Pinball AIMTROM Fest. So we've been hearing about this new facility that's supposed to be opening for quite a long time now for American Pinball. And now they kind of had their ribbon cutting, so to speak. And I'm assuming we're going to start seeing a couple lines of pinball and a line of redemption games going into that facility. Yeah, but you know what, though? So I have a little more intake on this. What do you think of them starting to make redemption games? I don't have a problem with them making redemption games. And it was interesting because we had Ryan from Chicago Gaming Company in here last night. And Chicago Gaming, pinball is not their bread and butter, so to speak. I mean, it's becoming bigger and bigger there. But, I mean, they're selling multi-games and arcade stuff. So it's a way to kind of spread the wealth, so to speak. And I think we talked about it last week. If you're going to have redemption games being built, manufactured, and sold at American Pinball, and that helps with funding the pinball, I mean, that's great. What would be unfortunate to see happen is if, and I think you had brought this up too, is if the redemption games become ultimately more lucrative because the costs are lower to produce, the profits bigger, and they make more money. What's the point of making pinball at that point, right? Well, dude, for American, I could see it being like Williams, man. There's just more money in the slots or redemption games than there is in the pinball. Interesting comparison, now that you put it that way. That is interesting. Now, I mean, we're hoping this isn't foreshadowing because there's nothing more than we would like to see is a blockbuster third hit or their first true hit coming out of American Pinball game number three. You just hope that the redemption games don't become the slot machines of yesteryear for American Pinball, right? I mean, it's going to be what it's going to be.
    7:40
    You know, here, I'd like to just see it survive, you know, even if it's one game a year. Yeah. So, you know, whatever. Let's just not hope everybody does that because, you know, we'd be some pinball-less mother people. Yeah, right. Exactly. We'll see what happens. I mean, it's a wait-and-see approach. Jersey Jack Pinball this week. Looks like we went into a little turn-back-in-time approach. Not a whole lot going on at Jersey Jack, so we revisited the Wizard of Oz. If we could turn back time.
    8:08
    You know, and we were talking about light boards, and I think that game's come a long way. I wish the boards were a little cheaper to upgrade to the 2.0. And I wish it was easier to figure out what the heck you're dealing with with the boards, because I think there's more than two versions of boards. There's like the original. Right. There's like the 2.0, then the 2.2s. There's a daughter board here, partridge in a pear tree. And if you don't know what you're looking for and you're buying that Wizard of Oz on the used market, you might be getting less than what you bargained for. Well, and, you know, here, for people that have it, you have it so it doesn't really matter. For people that might be thinking of buying one, I'd buy one that's newer with those light boards. What light boards does your game have? So I don't know the exact. That's my point. I look at it as three different. I have the 7.5 light boards. What does that mean to you? not a whole lot i look at it as a b and c a is the ones that you know they had a big problem with b is the ones that they had minimal problems with c is the 2.0 bullet problemless yeah yeah okay um but i'm in a different scenario man because i don't care if i have to you know rip half the game apart and change them all because at some point i'd like to play field swap the game so even if that happened it's it's not crazy for me right exactly but for the end user i could see it being detrimental i always thought like if you had a ruby red edition then regardless of when it was made then you were probably okay with those light boards but i don't even know if that's true no it's not okay because i know of a mutual friend of ours joe in kansas city he had a ruby red and he had to do the light board swap yeah and the light board swap you know for those of you that have a wizard vase and now you're trying to lift the play field to see what you have or what you don't have uh that's not something that's going to take you 25 minutes either that's that's hours and hours of labor to get those swapped out like 10 to 20 oh my gosh that's cooler but you know what i wouldn't And I'm not saying this to scare people away because, I mean, I know my game, too. We've played quite a few games on it. Just buy a new one, right? Yeah. No, don't buy a new one. Buy the new light board set and switch it. Yeah, but how much is the light board set? Isn't it like $800? It is $800. Yeah. It's not cheap. I'm not even sure. Not cheap. I have yet to go down that road, but I'll tell you what, though. I have enough passion for the game that I'm not going to sell it, so it doesn't matter to me. Yeah, I get it. I don't know. It's just an interesting conversation. And when you really think back at it, I mean, Wizard of Oz has been around for a while. And when you stand it next to pinball machines, it still looks like it's advanced for its time. I mean, there's a lot going on in the game. You heard that, you know, LCD was the first appearance on a back glass or on a back box. Was that Wizard of Oz? Very, very pivotal game as far as pinball manufacturing and seeing new things coming into market. Followed Wizard of Oz. I think it was the game changer. Yeah. No pun intended, right? Seriously, though. It kind of changed a little bit of the pinball landscape. I think it was phenomenal for what it did. I'll be curious to see if we see more innovation like that game brought in packed play fields. Yeah, and I'm also wondering, like, what is the next big innovation? And we've had this conversation before, but, I mean, there's got to be something out there. And who's going to bring it to us? Is it going to be Deep Root? Are they going to bring it to us? And it's not online connectivity. I mean, that's really cool to have additional with your pinball machine. but it's not like a game changing thing as far as like innovation that you're going to immediately recognize when you walk up to a game no and i love that because i'm not technologically advanced so i would love to turn my game on and say update you know my wi-fi and whatever yeah but uh you know is that in the cards yet not yet but hopefully soon so stern pinball we're talking about uh i mean obviously we've got scared stiff why do i keep you know what it's wishful thinking am i and i keep calling them well you call it scared stiff because it's like scared stiff 2.0 I know, right? But is it, Bill? Is it really? Well, it's the 2.0.
    11:43
    Elvira's House of Horrors, they're shipping, they're going. I'm waiting to see when we'll get one that we can stream, because I'm anxiously wanting to put more time on the game. I feel like I'm missing something, and the game has not wowed me. And it's got to be because of limited time, because everybody else that I'm talking to is saying that this game is killer, it shoots great, it's unbelievable. So I'm happily left in the dark until I'm able to put more time on it. But I think the focus that I wanted to kind of draw our attention to is as now we get into, you know, Twippy nomination season, the Twippies, which is this week in pinball yearly awards. Yes. Do you feel that Jurassic Park, which is Keith Elwin's second game, is going to win the Game of the Year award at this year's Twippies, just like last year, Iron Maiden? One game of the year, and it was Keith Elwin. So I'm going to ask this question to you. How many Jurassic Parks do you think they're going to sell versus Wonka's?
    12:41
    Obviously, I think there's more Jurassic Parks that are readily available to purchase than there are Willy Wonka's, so I think that kind of holds Wonka back as far as the exposure for the game. Okay, and how many Jurassic Parks are on location versus Wonka's? Significantly more. So I think it comes down to that game kind of starts off with a disadvantage. Wonka's starts off with a disadvantage because of the lack of the exposure. Yeah, I mean, it's a more expensive, great game. Right. But you're just going to see Jurassic Park's on more corners. And I love Jurassic Park. That's why I bought one. And you bought a Wonka. So you're actually the perfect person to ask this. I did. Your game of the year, which one would it be? Would it be that Wonka? I don't have enough time on Wonka. Fair enough.
    13:24
    Ask me in January. Fair enough. Yeah, I think I've got a lot of time on both. and where, I'll tell you what, man, Jurassic Park is really gaining on Willy Wonka for me as far as what I would consider my favorite game to play right now. And I think now I have more time on Jurassic Park than I have on Wonka. So I've got to get back on Wonka again and see what's going on. You can't make a bad decision between the two games. No, it's a price point. I'm going to make a prediction and say that Wonka does not win the Twippy, and I think it's going to be Jurassic Park because the gameplay alone stands on its own.
    14:02
    But I think you hit it on the head, man. There's just so many more Jurassic Parks out there. People have more time on Jurassic Parks. I don't see how Wonka has a chance. I think it finishes second, but I just don't even know that it's close. And it's not because the game isn't a good game. It's just because there's not enough out there for people to play. No.
    14:19
    Dude, I mean, it's kind of like the sad tale on Pinside. Dude, how many games on Pinside are below the top 100, but there's only 2,000 examples that were ever made? Yeah, right. And then you see some games that are in the top 100, and you shake your head and say, how is this game getting beaten by this? You know, and it's funny. If you think back last year, I think that's what really hindered Pirates of the Caribbean from possibly winning that Twippy, too. And it was because there was a lack of games out there. There was only, what, a few hundred games maybe that made it out at that time? Maybe less? And the game is unbelievable, but it's just not enough people were able to play the game. Okay but all right And guess who won Keith Elwin So it like a redo of last year Elwin with an outstanding game going up against Jersey Jack with also an outstanding game but because of the amount of games that are out there that sheer numbers kind of might skew the results. Now, here's the thing, though.
    15:10
    And when I say, I'm not saying that Wonka and Pirates of the Caribbean would have won if the same amount of games were out. I'm just saying that it puts them at a complete disadvantage as far as getting Twippy votes, I would assume. Well, I mean, think about it. You're talking about a game that's $8,500 starting, going up to $1,200. Most people don't want to sacrifice two games to put one Pirates in. Right. So it's like, and I say this with all respect, so because of that, I think that did hinder it. So you have the miscongeniality of pinball second place, and it's just because of sheer skewed numbers. Right. In my opinion. Now that said, what's worth more right now, Iron Maiden or Pirates of the Caribbean?
    15:54
    Yeah, well, I mean Pirates is worth more than Iron Maiden is. Okay, so you might have bought a game that might not have ranked the highest, but you have a big dollar game. Yeah. And now I'm almost curious if that literally might happen again with Wonka. So like the scarcity, because I figure at some point we're going to see Jersey Jack pinball game number four that's going to jump on the line maybe early next year. I don't know exactly when. But, yeah, I mean, unless they're going to make two games and have two lines running, you would assume that most of the attention is going to shift to that next game. Does that leave Wonka kind of in the dust? Now, I also would believe that there were a lot more Wonkas that have been manufactured and made and shipped and received and are being played than there ever were Pirates of the Caribbean. Maybe. I don't know, man. It'll be interesting to see the demographics or the statistics on Penn's side as far as pricing goes. Right. I don't think you can just call a distributor and be like, I want to walk a standard and necessarily be able to get one in a couple weeks. I mean, these things have to get back on the line. I searched. They've got to be on the run of these things. Yeah, that's right. You were searching. I was searching high and low. Right. I couldn't find one, especially not locally. And our distributor friend, dude, he lucked out and got a few. And I was like, dude, I will buy it. I don't care. It's fine. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Good. So you got it. You lucked out, man. It helps. So we'll see. So early prediction for me is I think that Jurassic Park does win the Twippy for 2019 Game of the Year. As Special Elite Pinball Podcast will win Podcast of the Year for 2019. And if I'm batting .500, that's not too horrible as far as predictions go. I also wanted to take a minute and talk about Deep Root Pinball. And we've got the Houston Arcade and Pinball Expo that's coming up here in about a week and a half. And as we know, Deep Root Pinball is supposed to be bringing Raza games. Raza stands for Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure Land. It's supposedly going to be the first offering from Deep Root Pinball, where they kind of get to show off. But in bringing their talents to San Antonio, what we will see from them. Now, there was a lot of speculation as far as these games, what condition will these games be in, meaning they're prototype games. Will there be artwork? Are these going to be Whitewoods? Will there be code on these games? Is this just going to be more like cycle testing to see what it is? So instead of speculating, I just emailed Robert, and I had asked him if he could kind of give us a little bit of an update on what's going on, what we can expect at those games. And he did get back to me, and he basically, he says the prototypes, which are the Raza prototypes, they're at the level most new-in-box pinball machines are at. But the Playfield art is an early version, minimal outer art. The Playfield toys will be a little rough because they're hand-done and they're not mass-produced. So it sounds like you're going to get a pretty good grasp of what the game is going to be, but it's obviously not going to be fully completed. It doesn't sound like something new out of the box. But it sounds like it's a rough sketch, not even a rough sketch, like a second-to-final sketch. Yeah. Which I think you and I were both expecting like a blank cabinet and blank play field, and this is what it's going to be. It's like your third rough draft, right? Yeah. And then you're going to start going to production. Then you have your final edition.
    19:00
    I'm pleasantly surprised. I thought there wouldn't be play field artwork on the game. So, yeah. So, I mean, I'm looking forward to it now. I want to see what's going on. It kills me that we can't be there. A big reason we went to Texas last year was to see the five days of Deep Root reveal on these games, and it didn't pan out. So I'm hoping that Houston Arcade Expo is a little more kind to not only Deep Root, but for the people that want to go see the games. And hopefully we're seeing some of these games manufactured, I would hope, before summer of next year. I mean, get some games out and see how it goes. I mean, where do you think manufacturing – because that's the big thing, right? I mean, you can go ahead. You can be in your garage. And this isn't Deep Root. They're not in their garage. No, no, no. But you're just giving a for example. Right. I mean, you can be – we've seen people bring homebrew pins that they've been working on, and it's a fully functioning pinball machine, and it's fun, and it shoots well, but it's not being mass manufactured. So – I forget who said that, dude. Anyone can make a game in their garage. Okay. Which I think is kind of crap, but, you know, maybe they can. And some people can build a game in the garage. Code, play field, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. But let's say you make three.
    20:08
    Well, yeah. I mean, you've got to get the manufacturing figured out. Or if you can make 10, did you just make the Pinball Mafia and you can't sell? See, that's the other thing. That's the other thing. I don't know. I hope there's ramps in these games. I'm assuming there are. And I'm hoping that we see some innovation, something that's new and something that's different. I think it would be refreshing. and then obviously it's going to come down to what the price point is for what's being offered. And again, all those are up in the air, but at least we get kind of a first glance here. Within the next two weeks, we'll have something to talk about in regards to Deep Root as far as solid concrete playability in games, physical games. Well, it's what, like 18 months in the making? It's been a while, man. It really has. But I mean, hey, I always come back to this. This doesn't set well with some people, but they didn't ask for anybody's money and they paid money out for those that settled and wanted the cash settlement from the Zidware stuff. Well, I wrote him a check six months ago. No, you did not. No, I'm kidding. Be careful, man. You might be getting sued now. No, no, no, no. You know what? That was all taken out of jest. No, I know. Yeah, they haven't taken any money. I mean, they've made some interesting claims. Let's see how that all comes to be. When you figure the amount of money, and I don't know what the exact totals were, but those that had asked for the cash settlement on the Zidweir claim offer that Robert and Deep Root offered to those. And then you figure out the amount of money that's being paid out for staffing, overhead. You've got a building. There's a lot going on over there. So they're so invested at this point. I mean, I would be shocked if we didn't see a game come to fruition. The one thing that kind of concerned me a little bit was when they were talking about, If you want to buy a licensing package from us and we're going to help other pinball companies if they want help, smaller boutiques. I don't want to see services being offered. I want to see a pinball machine being manufactured and being for sale. That's what I want to see first. And if that other stuff comes next, great. That's just me being selfish as a consumer that's looking for something different. But you know what, dude? If it bleeds, it leads, right, especially in pinball. All we talk about is a lot of negative crap it seems like lately, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, speaking of negative crap, that's a good segue. But hold on. before and i'll jump back in with that you're good buddy but you didn't hear about people getting burned on their you know what was promised to them you know either a game or you know half their money back he didn't have to do that so i mean yeah no i agree that's a stand-up move and dude here how many people got burned in 2009 in the economic or 2008 in the economic recession right i would have settled for 50 cents on the dollar of what they lost the only thing i'm telling you the biggest the biggest setback or hurdle now that has to be leapt or leaped over whatever you want to say is because of the way in which deep root came into the scene with a lot of the crash yeah you know what i mean and it was off-putting for some and unfortunately for themselves they've not been able to back up anything that they've said yet and i think that's where a lot of people kind of are trying to hold some accountability there. So I think that even though this is probably not the ideal way for them to reveal their games, it is a way to kind of say, all right, guys, this is what we're working on. This is what it's looking to be. You don't have to speculate. This is kind of the direction that we're going. But I think that this is going to be a pivotal weekend that Houston Arcade and Pinball Expo for the company. Because if we go out there, and when I say we, I say the pinball consumers, because myself and Bill were not able to travel to Houston to see this, but if you go out there and it's disappointing or it's something that didn't meet the expectations that you had, I think it's going to be easy for people to kind of turn the other cheek and not really care about what's going on. On the flip side... But do you think that... I'm going to interrupt you here, okay? Yeah, great. All right, I'm going to pull a Ken Cromwell move. Good. So do you think, though, that people are just going to see it, dude, and might have a different head and just piss all over it and think the thing sucks? Yeah, I mean, there will be people that will be like that. I know me personally, dude, a new car comes out, let's say a Tahoe, and I'm so used to the old version. A new one comes out, and it's like, I hate the grill, man. That truck sucks. And it takes three, four years for me to get used to it. Well, there's some things like the head-on Sharky shootout, like those showpiece heads. I don't like that. But what will happen is there's going to be a collective of people that no matter what is being shown, they're going to find flaws or faults. And they're going to want to exploit that. And I understand that. That's with anything pinball, it seems like, these days. I'm more in the camp where, and I've asked this, please show me something. And now this is an opportunity for me to be shown something. They don't need to impress just me. I mean, I'm a blip on the radar. I'm not even a blip on the radar, deep root. But I want to be able to see something and walk away and be like, huh, okay. Now I kind of get it, and I want to be able to get behind the company and really see it go forward. If it's lackluster, though, and it just looks like it's, you know. Yeah. I mean, vanilla. Listen, we're on the eve of something cool. So it's going to go down one of two ways. We're on the potential something cool. Potential eve of something cool. Right. But, dude, you know, what if, let's play that what if game. What if this game makes everybody that bought an Elvirus say, what the hell did I just do? And it could happen. You know, this game is cooler. It's got more crap in it. The code is awesome. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, you know you're going to see like a nice animated package. I mean, they've talked about that before with pinball animations. for me it's going to come down to the pinball experience and unfortunately i'm not gonna be able to have that pinball experience because i'm not going to be there in front of the game but i will be able to see if there are things like you said to my liking if i if the playfield uh design is there if there's some innovation i'm curious to see what they're doing with the playfields uh that's been something that's been discussed uh the old i'm going to take a hammer to the playfield thing has been very intriguing i've kind of speculated on what i think that is To your point, will the shape of the cabinet or the head, will it be something that we're used to? Will it be different? Will it be something that's more streamlined and smaller and compact? I think that with innovation, you might see ways in which they are, you know, when I say taking shortcuts to make a more efficient game. And I'm not opposed to that. Let me ask you if this would bother you. What if you had like a pinball machine like we're used to seeing, like the body, the cabinet, and you referenced the head? Yes. What if the head was just, say, a 50-inch or a 43-inch LCD screen that just folds down? That's your head. And then when you're playing, you fold that thing up, and it's just this huge 16.9 display. Samsung curved something cool? Right. You have no box, so to speak. All the boards are going to be in the cabinet, but you just had a thin widescreen TV as a head, maybe attached to like two poles that you wouldn't see because it hinges up and down. Would that bother you? Would that make you say, you know what, that doesn't look like pinball. I'm not comfortable with that. I'm not going to buy it.
    27:04
    Yes, that would. If it was a 32-inch, I would probably be a little bit better with it. Okay, let's say 32-inch then. Maybe 50. 50-inch is a pretty big TV for a pinball machine. It is, man.
    27:15
    If it's similar to the size of a pinball head now, I'd probably be fine with it. I'm a little off putting it first because it'd be something different and it's new and change. But they wouldn't bother me, man. As long as they're not trying to make a video game out of a pinball game. No, I'm just thinking like I think there's a lot of space that can be utilized with an LCD TV. If that was your whole back box, you'd have to figure out what's going to go on with speakers and things like that. But I mean, that could be redone. But I'm just thinking if it just doesn't look like we're used to seeing, would it immediately be so off putting that you would have no interest in finding out anything further about the game? No, that wouldn't bother me. No. So even though Sharky Shootout, I don't like that showcase-type head, it wouldn't make me not want to play the game. You know what I mean? I think you and I both hate the head on Baywatch because it's ginormous and it sticks out like a sore thumb. I don't really care for the American Pinball heads either on Oktoberfest or Houdini. I just don't like that curvy kind of looking box. But it's not a deal-breaker for me. It's just not my style. when I see those in my lineup, like they don't line up with everything else. But, you know, who cares? It's not the end. There are so many other things you could be concerned about with a pinball machine. Dude, you know what? I made Baywatch, the head of Baywatch, fit in a lot better in my row of, you know, Stern, Wizard of Oz, Williams. All I did was buy a Gottlieb, and that head is so nasty in a Tro Ships, it makes Baywatch look good. Oh, yeah. No problem. There you go, man. And that game's yellow, so it's fine. Good times. So we'll see what happens, right? We've got a little over about a week and a half before we get to deep dive into Deep Root. And I'm sure we'll have maybe Jeff Patterson will have like his full deep dive into the new Raza games that are going to be displayed. So, hey, best of luck to them. And I hope all is well and hope they come out with some really inventive stuff. Agreed. I hope this is worth it, guys. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. And I apologize, man. Like, I'm struggling today voice-wise. We had that stream last night with Ryan White. He was in from Chicago Gaming Company. He brought in the Medieval Madness Royal Edition. With a kick and topper. Yeah, it had the topper on it. It had the unbelievable, everything was powder-coated on that game. The rails, the hinges, the freaking speaker panel is powder-coated. The lockdown bar is powder-coated. The coin door is powder-coated. It looks unbelievable. It's a very, very impressive machine. There were a couple of questions that were asked though that I thought it was worth kind of getting into and that is obviously if you have a Medieval Madness remake that doesn have the extra wide screen and doesn have the speaker upgrade like all these things and the topper all these things can be purchased So you can actually upgrade your original remake and remake is the key here, to make it look as close to a Royal as possible, and you're not paying any more than anybody that's buying a Royal right off the bat. So that was kind of nice. The second thing that I thought was pretty cool was this. And as far as I knew, and I think the way he mentioned it last night, This wasn't public knowledge as of yet, but for those that have original medieval madnesses that want to get the topper, you're kind of SOL, right? Because there's no way that that topper is coded to be interactive with that game. Exactly. So that was a question that was being asked, but Ryan said that they are actively working on a way to allow original medieval madness owners to purchase through Planetary Pinball that topper that will then have some interactivity with the game. So if you're an original Medieval Madness owner and you want to snag that topper, down the road you can order one from Planetary Pinball most likely, and it won't be a static topper. It'll interact with your game. I thought that was really, really awesome, man. 20 years later and you're getting that kind of topper for that game, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah. People had asked, how many Royals are you going to make? And that was the one thing that was odd to me. They don't know how many Royals they're going to make. I think they're going to make a total of another like 550 games total, but that's from all different tier packages. All three different tiers, yeah. Right. So the Royals, there's no number on it. So you're going to get a game that's going to have a serial number that will say that you have a Royal edition. It'll be the most rare of all the Medieval Madnesses. I would recommend if you are looking to get a Royal and you're on the fence, it may already be too late. I would contact your distributor and ask if you can snag one. $10,000, but, I mean, it's got everything. If you're a Medieval Madness fan, this is the creme de creme. This is the Cadillac of Medieval Madness games. So jump out, reach out, try to snag one. But, again, you might already be too late. I'm not sure how that's working out with the numbers. Either way, it's a great game.
    31:59
    It's going to be interesting, as we always say. Now I wanted to shift gears real quick and talk about negativity. Yeah, just a little bit. You know how I get. Every few episodes, I like to bitch about something. Listen, I'm up for that right now, man. We're on a lack of sleep, so it's good. We are on a lack of sleep and a little bit of crabbiness. And this is what I have ultimately decided that when I first got into pinball and going into social media and watching company posts and pinball personalities' posts and stuff, there's a little bit of trolling that's going on, and you just kind of like, all right, I get it. You kind of smile and whatever.
    32:38
    Now it's gotten to the point where unless you're trolling, you're not cool or something. It's like trolling has become an in thing to do, and it's driving me nuts because I'm wasting too much time reading into trolling. And trolling, I don't even know what the definition is per se, but I think it's essentially throwing out information or offering information in an effort just to get a reaction. And it doesn't even need to be truthful information. And most important, when you're trolling somebody, you're just providing disinformation in order to spark conversation.
    33:17
    Essentially, you're lying, you know what I mean, to people. Yeah. And in my recent as I've been thinking, what's been going on lately? It's just gotten to the point where it's like I'm sick of trolling. Stop. Stop trolling. You know, pinball companies stop trolling. Pinball personalities stop trolling. I mean, I can go on and on about different examples. Something fueled this. You know what it is? It's like there's a lot of clickbait going on right now.
    33:41
    I just saw something where somebody had posted something that was like a Goonies teaser. and it's like, okay, so now do we think that Stern Pinball is making goonies? But it's like constant. It never stops. It's like, please, let's focus on what is actually happening instead of throwing a bunch of stuff out there all the time. And you know what? So you don't believe that that's market research to see if they should make a title?
    34:06
    Well, I mean, the thing is this. I can jump on my Facebook page and I can throw 50 things up a day and take some market research myself. The fun for it is gone for me now because it's constant. And it's not just that. It's like API taking a picture of car keys and saying that there's a clue for the next release in there. And everyone's, I mean, is there really a clue that's in that or is that just trolling? They had just put up that. That means there's a coin door on it. Who cares? And then they had the picture of the binary code that some people took as like a Matrix teaser. Stern Pinball, you got guys in there that are wearing Jaws t-shirts Because a lot of people have been clamoring for Jaws They take a trip to, and they're exploring the world of Harry Potter When everybody wanted to check out the Harry Potter stuff It's just, it's fake news It's become too much And in full disclosure here It's totally me being like a 44-year-old old man Where it's just not funny to me anymore It's just, please, let's stop the trolling let's give some information that's truthful i don't know i i'm just a little i don't know what your thoughts on it but i'm done with the trolling i like if i see trolling or i smell trolling now i just you block it off my lawn i don't want to do none of it literally you say that and i was thinking to myself someone needs to do the meme of uh ken's face on clint eastwood in grand torino get off my lawn yeah get off my facebook um and it's just it's it's not to the point where it's Like some of these people that it's, it's dumb. If you have that much time. Yeah. Some of these I've seen are dumb and yeah, I'm kind of passionately pissed off about this because some of the stuff that you just want to slap a person, you know, what, what made you think that was a good idea to post something like that? It's just too much. You know, it's, it's purposely providing disinformation. It's purposeless crap. And to get a reaction. And now, so this is my reaction that the trolling has, uh, you know, provided. So if you're looking for a reaction from me, it's just like in certain moderation, I can see where it's entertaining and a little bit fun. But when it's just constant stuff, it's just a waste of everybody's time. That's just how I feel about it. All right, so I'm going to flip this. So somebody comes up with a meme of the Goonies and says, hey, listen, for the Goonies, I'm thinking of an upper play field like a ship, one-eyed willies ship up there and an underground subway that you could see through a piece of plexiglass, reminiscent of the cave or crap, whatever they're crawling through, that's cool. That's bringing innovation or sparking ideas. That's just having a discussion without any leading. And I would read that because I think that is cool to whatever. But yeah, some of this other stuff, man, I just want to bang my head against the wall.
    36:55
    And now there's things like, too, so let me ask you this. And recently on Facebook, there was a conversation. in this okay so this conversation surprised me because it was uh it was dead flip jack danger okay going on facebook saying if if there's any spinners in the outlanes of scott denisi's next game i'm gonna lose it uh and then he hashtagged it like uh real beef uh etc etc etc and my first thing was i was surprised because i know that like jack and scott at least i thought they're buddies well yeah dude he uh scott helped him cut some play fields yeah right but i know they've been friends like i remember jack uh he started streaming tna when it was in whitewood status i mean those guys have worked together on a lot of different projects i'm assuming they've got respect for each other i've never known otherwise so for jack to kind of go out and let me ask you this i mean for him to post that publicly how did you take that i think it's crap what does that mean you think it's crap all right so literally if you and i have a problem am i gonna just hashtag Ken Cromwell sucks, or am I going to call you up and be like, hey, dude, is there a problem? And that's if I care. If I don't care, I'm going to write you off. And there's people that we have written off and we just don't care because it's not worth our time. We're not going to go on Facebook and smash somebody and start this nonsense crap. We'll let them know, hey, we think your opinion sucks. And that's where I was surprised, right? But we would do that personally. We would do that personally. Yeah. To call it out publicly. And that is really disappointing that he would have done that. And when I was reading Scott's replies, they were more playful banter and they were kind of it seemed like Scott was taking the high road. And I didn't know if it was because he was caught off guard and he didn't know what to say, because Scott's not somebody that's that's overly confrontational. I mean, he's going to stick up for himself, but he was just kind of playing it off. And, you know, I was reading the comments and chat and I was trying to figure out. I'm like, did Jack Danger just like lose it? And then now he's like attacking somebody about an idea on a pinball machine. And then and then it occurred to me, am I is this just more trolling that's going on where like I'm buying into this and I'm like watching a soap opera that's all fake. So do you think that this is a legit beef because he he hashtags it legit beef or whatever it is, legit complaint? Or is it more trolling? and and if i'm if i'm a betting man yeah i'm a betting man right dude the 100 orange juice you read the label it's not really 100 orange juice this is crap dude because if this really went down this way it wouldn't have gone down this way but then why do it though drum up interest of interest of what i don't know what what's what's interesting about watching somebody that is respected in the pinball community go against somebody else that's respected in the pinball community maybe they're like publicly i don't know dude why would you be bored and just start uh assuming that it is trolling. I don't know. I don't think – here. I think it's crap because I think that if that really went down that way – You're fired up a little bit. If something like that really went down that way, I would like to think that they were cool enough to make a phone call and be like, hey, you suck because of this reason. Well, I think you suck. Cool. Let's grab a beer and be done with this. I just – but there's like – regardless if it's a real disagreement,
    40:14
    if it is real, it's in poor taste that it's in the public domain. and if it's just trolling i have no idea how that is something that benefits either of these guys i don't know i just i don't get it i like them both hopefully that it's just some nonsense and they're really not at each other but i would like to think that literally okay jack gets pissed off and does something i mean guess what we're all human and we have these moments of fits of rage and do some crazy crap that we later regret so you know let's just throw that out there and he loses his cool, whatever. I'd like to think that Scott would be like, hey, dude, what's the problem? And I don't see Scott not doing that.
    40:51
    I just don't get it. I mean, it's still there. You can read it. It hasn't been taken down. So I don't know if those guys had a falling out.
    40:59
    If they did, I'm surprised that it's going down as it did a week ago on social media. And if they didn't, I don't understand how it benefits either of them to have each other's name. I just don't understand how it looks good for – it makes no sense. I'm done with the trolling. Scott's next pin, Haunted House Party. Is that trolling? I don't know. Is that the legit thing? I have no clue. I think it is Haunted House Party. Is everybody just becoming like a troll artist? It's just annoying me. I don't know who to trust. You know what happens now? I don't want to hear anything from anybody. No, but when somebody comes to you with a problem, what do you do? I know you call them because I've done the same thing. Exactly. I don't care. And you know what? There's times where people have pissed us off and we haven't called them because it's like I don't – it's not that I don't respect them. It's just I don't care enough about that friendship to warrant a phone call. And I know that sounds terrible, but I just don't care. No, I get it, man. I guess – But if you're a good dude and I like you and there's been moments of good vibes between us, yeah, you'll get a response saying, hey, how have I offended you? Explain this to me so I can either rectify it or chalk it up to you're just bipolar. I got so we have respect for both of these guys, Scott and Jack, and no, no beef from us. But I just please enlighten me as to what just happened and why it happened. And if it's none of my business, then don't post it publicly. It's like it's as simple as that. If I'm getting trolled, shame on you. And if it's for real, shame on you. It's it's just it is what it is. Dude, as far as friendship, hopefully it was a troll. As far as reality. I mean, I wish they would have handled it privately. Well, and if everybody else understands that this is serious and I'm just the only one that doesn't get it, or if everybody understands that this is just trolling and I'm just the only one that doesn't get it, believe me, there's more of me that don't get it and don't understand what it is. So it's not like I'm the only person on the face of the earth because you don't get it, unless we're the two idiots in Chicago or in the United States, which, depending on who you ask, might not be far from the truth. I'm sure there's just confusion out there. And it just all goes back to that. I don't know who to trust about what information anymore, because it's become trolling has become like this art form that I just don't appreciate anymore. It's just it's a waste of my time. I think it's a waste of everybody else's time. And it got me talking. So if the reaction is what was needed for more trolling, congratulations. It's mission accomplished. But it's soured me, Bill. I don't like it. people that listen to the podcast that probably already read it so they don't care it's fine i don't know i don't know so it is what it is just just my little uh sound off and you want to go ahead and play drain it or save it you good hey you know what public service announcement man if you got some crap to say to somebody message them reach out to them or ignore it don't don't fuel public crap on facebook and dude i'm guilty of that too with the the post where somebody you know um said something about dwight solvent and dwight's dwight's a friend of ours you know and well guess what well that was going to bat for a buddy i get it and he was you didn't get that to to just get attention and i was like man another great example forget this crap yeah and i said what i needed to say and then people lit him up after that and i think i took the high road of how i called him out now i don't think i was a complete tool no no i mean you were being very as a matter of fact and again another another more trolling that just went badly it didn't work out we need to start drinking again. What's the problem? You're right. What trolling?
    44:34
    And I'm surprised we're still on this. After the trolling, everyone's like, oh, man, that was so much better off for being trolled. That was so awesome. You got me. You have done the community a service. Yes. Thank you so much I cannot wait until I trolled again And I will scour Facebook and try to get as trolled as much as I can We have to drop this Because everybody trolling Because literally I going to play Medieval Madness and I going to hear a troll and I going to turn the flipping game off I so sick of this. You know what's great, everybody? We just trolled you. Let's play some Drain It or Save It.
    45:08
    It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by LearnMods.com, offering you custom quality playfield mods and lighting for your pinball machine l-e-r-m-o-d-s visit lermods.com today bill we're i'm gonna run a little drainer to save it this week and the first item on the docket for you today drain it or save it you spend more time how funny is this you spend more time on facebook because of pinball versus connecting with family or friends drain it or save it I spend way more time on Facebook now just because of pinball. Yep. And my friends list has doubled, which isn't saying a whole heck of a lot, but literally it's all pinball now. Yeah. And it blows my mind, dude. You're saving it, right? I am definitely going to save it. Right. What started off as kind of a cool thing years and years and years ago where I'm able to kind of keep in contact with my family, my distant family, and then some friends that haven't spoken to in years or from college or from high school or whatever. It has now turned into Pinball Marketplace. It has turned into checking in to see what's going on at this pinball company. You've got five different versions of Pinball Classified. Yes. Okay. That gets confusing. This person saw this, this, this, this, this. You've got Pinball Enthusiasts. You've got Pinballs for Sale. You've got Midwest Arcade Pinball Collectors. You've got the Pinball Homebrew Scene. I mean, there's a lot going on Facebook with pinball. Arcade Innovations. They post all the time. Yeah, those jerks. It is what it is So we're saving that, right? We're spending more time on pinball than we are with Probably what Facebook is meant for Secondly, how about this, Bill? Drain it or save it Reverse flippers is a fun programming option for pinball code Do you like when the code makes your flippers go in reverse Meaning the right button controls the left flipper Oh, I know exactly what you mean And the left button controls the right flipper Do you like that added element to pinball programming and code? I like it I will save it You'll save it, okay The only thing I'm going to say is I wish there was an option to turn it off.
    47:07
    Oh, fair enough. You know, because sometimes, you know, that gets confusing for people and, you know, whatever. It's fine. I hate it. Like, I'm going to drain it. Like, I cannot stand that. It's like you're playing as skillfully as possible, and then, like, everything that you know with your brain goes opposite. So you don't like making an X on Ghostbusters? It's exactly what I do. I make an X on Ghostbusters, but the problem is with Ghostbusters is it keeps flipping back and forth. So it's like you're playing Twister while you're trying to keep the ball in play. So I'm going to drain that one. You're going to save it. I will save it. All right. Finally, last one, Bill. And I think you'll like this one because it kind of pertains to you a little bit. And that is drain it or save it. Driving halfway to St. Louis to meet the buyer of your Munsters Pro isn't all that bad when it means you get to escape from your house for six hours when you have a cranky newborn. Drain it or save it, Bill. I am saving it. And I'm even, like, waking up at 4 in the morning to do this. so it's like you know babe good luck to you and and for what would you do well let's hear your response and i'll give a little backstory uh i would say that too i i am not one that likes driving but sometimes you need to escape the home whether it be some volatile family issues or just getting you like your own personal space and there's nothing better than being in the car or being by yourself tuning in your favorite pinball podcast uh you know getting trolled on facebook all those sort of things are really really good i want to let you talk about this in a second let's Recap, though, drain it or save it. The first thing on the docket was we're spending more time on Facebook for pinball than family and friends. We both saved it. Reverse flippers being fun programming option for pinball code. Bill saved it. I drained it. And then driving halfway to St. Louis to drop off a game that you sold so that you can escape your house for six hours. Bill saves it, and I also save it. And that's Drain It or Save It brought to you by LureMods.com. So a little back story on this is I found somebody in St. Louis that wants to purchase my Munsters. That didn't offer me $3,500 quality dollars for my Munsters. They were realistic on what they offer. So your Munsters Pro, what did you have it listed at? I started at $4,650. Okay. And you got offered $3,500. $3,500, huh? And I'm compulsive, so if it doesn't sell in like two or three days, it's like, all right, what am I doing wrong? Yeah. And I just hate sitting on something because if I make up my mind, dude, it's got to go. I don't think about it. It's just act, act, act.
    49:24
    So I dropped it to $43.50 and started seeing a lot of messages, hey, tagging people. So I was like, all right, so I know the pricing is right. And I was ready to drop it then too because once I get in that mode, things are going to go. $43.50 is a very fair price for a Stern Pro. I think it's kind of a giveaway. It is. I got to move it because I got another game coming. Right.
    49:45
    And got a guy locally, $3,500, and I'll take it. I was like, dude, for $3,500, I will put it in my driveway, douse it with gasoline, and watch it burn in front of you for $3,500. I don't care. You know, principle. I get it. Oh, pisses me off. I know you don't like the lowball offers. That is not something that you're going to drain that. I am going to drain that. Dude, if someone calls and said, hey, what's your best number, X, Y, and Z. Yeah. If you want to call and give me half, you know, why don't you drive over? I'll slap you. You can give me half, and we'll call it good. The art of the negotiation. You should have sold it for $3,500 and taken all the boards and everything out of it. You could just give them the shell. I should have sold them a cabinet for $3,500. There you go. But, yeah, you know, so, I mean, just some of those people. And so I drain that because there's a respectful way and a disrespectful way. And you and I differ on this. We had a conversation about this.
    50:36
    The thing is, like, people want to open up negotiation, and where they set their price, they usually want to get where you can counter a couple ways and meet in the middle. So I come in at $3,500. I don't think the guy really thought he was going to get it for $3,500, but he's expecting you to counter from your $43.50. How about $4,000 and it's yours? And now the guy's thinking, wow, I was going to give him $4,200. Let's see if I can get it for $39.50. I mean, it's the art of the negotiation. And then what ends up happening more times than not is you'll actually agree to somebody's price, and then they'll be like, all right, well, I'm going to ask my wife and just make sure it's okay, and then they disappear into the night. It's like they don't even fulfill the agreement in which they just like to negotiate. They like to tire kick. There's a group of people that like to do that. Facebook poll for this week. Yeah, what's that? You would rather keep a game than sell it to somebody that low-balled you and pissed you off. Well, you're not going to sell a game. Listen, I will sit on a game. Dude, even if they came up to the number in my head. Dude, we all have a number in our head that we're willing to sell a game for and not for. You're talking about being disrespected. I will not take a dollar less than X price. Yeah. Right? And if they're within even 10% of that number, I'll give a little bit of leeway and say, listen, I appreciate your offer. I am not looking to feed a heroin addiction, and my house isn't in foreclosure. So let's get a little more realistic with these numbers.
    52:01
    And when you go past that 10% of in my head, which is almost 15% or 20% of asking price, whatever. whatever you're not getting my game when i first i will lose money giving it to somebody else yeah just and go through the headache of driving it to st louis then selling it to you for the same price i had uh when i first started in the hobby i i think was selling judge dread and i forget what i sold it for what the price was but i remember the guys like uh i had it listed he's like well can i make an offer and i'm like sure and he made an offer and i'm like nah i'm like you know what but i can i can go to this and he's like he's like listen he goes let's just save the back and forth You tell me your rock bottom price, and I'll just let you know if I can do it or not. And I'm like, okay. Love that dude. $2,900. And he's like, all right, what about $2,650? No. I'm like, what was the question asking me what my rock bottom was if you were going to come in later? So then I'm like, all right, well, I'll do $31,000. He's like, well, you just said $29,000. I'm like, okay, sold. He's like, no, no, no, I said $26,000. He's like, come on, man. I'm not going to play this game. It seems like every five or six episodes we get upset about bargaining or not. This is why you need to stop buying games and selling games. This is why we need to stop podcasting when we're short on sleep and crabby. Blowing everybody up today. Everybody's horrible.
    53:18
    Everybody go away. We do need to do that as a Facebook poll. Would you rather make less money and sell to somebody you find a little bit more respectful in offering you what is a fair market price, or would you rather sell it to somebody that was more disrespectful as far as an asking price? That sounds like a pretty long poll, bro. Dude, we'll come up with a creative way of putting it.
    53:40
    Yeah. All right. Okay. You work on the verbiage, and I'll make sure I put that up for you. Let me get two hours of sleep, dude, and I'll come up with something a little bit more creative. But we'll do a Facebook poll. Sell to somebody that pissed you off over a lowball offer. Right. Or sell to somebody that came in a little lighter but it was a respectable offer. Perfect. All right. Sounds good. I will do that tomorrow. Speaking of things that are happening in the future, in December, we had talked about this a few times on the podcast. we are now finalizing. It's our 24-hour holiday charity pinball stream. It's going to be on the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast Twitch channel. And if you haven't followed that channel, you know that we stream for Flippin' Out. With this being a charity thing, we want to keep business and charity separate. You can follow us on Twitch, and it's Special When Lit Podcast over there on Twitch. So the way this is going to work, we are going to start on Friday evening, December 20th. and every hour we're going to switch out the streamer or the streaming team. And as we go through 24 hours, we're going to end on Saturday the 21st in the evening, and we're going to go 24 straight hours. All the bits that are donated during that time, we are going to donate to charity. Right now it looks like we're leaning towards Project Pinball for our charity donation. I want to get in contact with them and see exactly how that works. A part of me wanted to just try to buy a pinball machine and put it into someplace, but it just doesn't seem like that's going to make sense to work. I don't think that makes sense. That's not our thing, and they've perfected it. From what I've heard, that's the go-to charity. So that's going to be up in the air until I get that confirmed. But we've reached out to industry employees, and we've gotten some replies. So we're going to have people coming in from different pinball companies that will be streaming for the hour. We're going to have some friends of ours that we've met throughout our travels, even some guys from our St. Charles Pinball Club. and we're going to go 24 hours. The one thing that I would like to get a recommendation on is I'd like to set like a goal for this as far as like a dollar amount. And that's just to kind of drive people towards that goal. But I don't want the goal to be unattainable or unachievable where it becomes a letdown. But I don't want it to be where we're leaving charity donations on the table because we didn't get the goal as high as we could be. And I think what I'm, it'd be nice to be able to raise enough money to buy a whole pinball machine. Does that happen or not? I don't know. But I think if we kept our goal somewhere between $2,500 and $5,000, I think that that would be attainable. I think that we can raise $100 an hour for $2,400.
    56:07
    $101 and a quarter, I believe. Yeah. Something like that. Okay. It just blew my mind. But, yeah. I mean, so that's kind of where that's going to go. And if you are somebody that's in the pinball industry and you're local and I haven't reached out to you yet, reach out to me, please, if you have an hour of time. You can come in by yourself. You can come in with a team of people. and we'll have the mics going and we're just going to stream it for 24 hours. The goal is to have four or five different machines. We'll have the portable rig. We can kind of go in between games. So Stern employees can stream on a Stern game. American Pinball employees can stream on an API game. CGC. CGC, exactly. So that's going to be fun. So be looking out for that. And, again, if you want to follow us on Twitch, twitch.tv slash special when lit podcast to follow that channel. So finally, so we wanted to offer a congratulations to a couple podcast friends of ours. Right, Bill? Yeah. Good to Dennis and Tony from the Eclectic Gamers podcast. And why are we 100 episodes? 100 episodes. Hey, nicely done, guys.
    57:12
    ESPN. I don't know, man. We're at 77 and it's to do 100 episodes and they do it every two weeks. So they've been doing this for a long, long time. So I personally listen to the show, and I enjoy listening to those guys every other week. And congratulations, guys. I think that's great. Absolutely. 100 episodes. Congrats, guys. Also wanted to issue some shout-outs to Chris Franchi, Ed Vanderveen, and Christian Line. Those guys are becoming the three amigos, and they're going to debut the Super Awesome Pinball Show, or Super Awesome Pinball Podcast. That's going to be coming up sooner than later. I know this podcast has been trying to gain traction for a while, but because of conflict of interest with Christopher Franchi and companies he was working for, that kind of always took the back burner. But now that he's a freelancing pinball artist, he's ready to get down and dirty. He says, I'm going to do what I want. Yeah, yeah. And so Ed Van Der Veen, I mean, he runs the Texas Pinball Festival, knowledgeable pinball guy. Our buddy Steve just bought a bonsai run off of him. And then you've got Christian Line, who's Dr. Pin from Miss Pin's Pinball Podcast fame. What a great guy. Yeah, awesome guy. I was talking to him today. They're all awesome. I haven't had a chance to really shake Ed Van Der Veen's hand. I'm hoping if I get a chance to get to Texas Pinball Festival this year that I can just kind of put a name with a face and shake his hand and introduce myself. But, you know, Christian, we've known for a little bit and just a super nice guy. And I'm really excited to kind of see how he spreads his wings in pinball podcasting. Because whenever you hear him speak, I've always enjoyed how he's able to articulate and convey his thoughts in a public domain on a podcast, whether he's guest hosting or he's just having a conversation. Knowledgeable guy, fun guy, laid-back guy, respectful guy. I appreciate integrity. It doesn't seem to get heated about anything. No, not yet. You know what it takes? About six episodes of a pinball podcast where you start melting down and everybody comes at you. Best of luck to them. Yeah, best of luck to those guys. If you want to get a hold of us at the show, you can email us at specialwhenlitpinballpodcast at gmail.com. You can hit us up on Facebook, specialwhenlitpinballpodcast. And, Bill, what's that Instagram?
    59:20
    Specialwhenlitpinball. Sounds good. Hey, good having you here consecutive weeks, man. I know you're coming through the motions at home. Dude, last night, man, I didn't think this was going to happen. I thought this was going to be a remote session. Well, we got it in, and we went over the 45-minute mark. I know you've got to get back, and that's about it for news. We'll have some more next week as we have more to talk about, I would assume. All right, well, for Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.