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Episode 26 - Die on this Hill: Space Jam

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·40m 48s·analyzed·Apr 15, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Space Jam defender argues fun factor and operator success outweigh harsh critical consensus.

Summary

John Dozier from Inner Orbit Pinball defends Space Jam (Sega, 1996) on the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast's 'Die on this Hill' series, arguing it's a fun, approachable game with cool toys and theming despite its low Pinside ranking (280/290). Host Alan and John counter negative reviews citing nostalgia, operator revenue performance, and design merit while acknowledging legitimate criticisms like the saucer kicker design and repetitive gameplay.

Key Claims

  • Space Jam sold approximately 800 units; NBA Fast Break (spiritual successor) sold 250 units

    high confidence · Alan cites production numbers from pinball databases; notes NBA was made after Space Jam apparently performed well on location

  • Space Jam has a Pinside average rating of 6.624, ranking 280 out of 290 ranked machines

    high confidence · Alan states this at episode start; notes it's only one approved rating away from official rankings

  • The center saucer kicker is poorly designed and should have been a scoop; ramps on machines get torn up

    high confidence · Both Alan and John acknowledge this design flaw; Alan reports seeing a Space Jam with torn ramps at Next Level arcade

  • Sega games from this era had less development time/resources than Williams/Bally due to lower market share

    high confidence · Alan explains manufacturing/production dynamics: Sega sold fewer units, forcing faster turnaround on next game, reducing polish

  • Space Jam's skill shot (launch into basketball hoop) is extremely easy and doesn't require much skill

    medium confidence · Alan notes it 'always goes in' even when you don't try; appears to require minimal player precision

  • John Dozier created/colored the DMD (dot matrix display) for Space Jam

    high confidence · John states: 'I actually was the person who did the coloring of the color dmd so that's another reason why i have some investment in it too'

  • NBA Fast Break uses a similar layout to Space Jam with modifications (removed skill shot basket but kept ramp-into-hoop mechanic)

    high confidence · Alan and John discuss how Stern 'took this layout and tweaked it' suggesting Space Jam design was worth revisiting

  • Lonnie Rapp and Oren Day (Space Jam programmers) continue coding games at Stern and are skilled developers

    high confidence · John defends them against 'lazy coder' accusation; cites their work on Tron, Iron Man, Guardians of the Galaxy as evidence of quality

Notable Quotes

  • “Space Jam as a kid was my life. I remember getting a cassette tape, I was probably in first grade, I don't know, and just blaring the music through the house. Love the movie.”

    John Dozier @ early in interview — Establishes John's deep nostalgia connection to the IP, which he acknowledges clouds his judgment about the game

  • “If you're not selling as many units guess what your next game has to come out now because you didn't sell enough units so you get less time on your next year and your next game and your next game”

    Alan @ mid-episode — Explains the structural reason why Sega games like Space Jam lack polish compared to Williams/Bally—manufacturing realities force rushed development

  • “Facts are facts. It was programmed by lazy coders that continue to this day to code lazy”

    Donald Duck (reviewer) @ quoted review section — Harsh criticism of programmers Lonnie Rapp and Oren Day; John defends them as skilled developers constrained by time/resources

  • “sometimes you need a good gimmick on a pinball machine i think this game has some cool gimmicks”

    John Dozier @ late in defense — Summarizes John's defense: gimmicks (basketballs, toys) elevate an otherwise simple game

  • “keep got leaves name out your fucking mouth”

    Alan @ review discussion section — Frustration at reviewers reflexively comparing/trashing Gottlieb System 3 games; shows community tendency to pile-on certain manufacturers

  • “they're the ones like screaming for goonies and labyrinth like stuff from their childhood they don't they would desperately want to buy which is kind of interesting”

    Alan @ late in episode — Points out hypocritical nostalgia bias in middle-aged reviewers who trash child-themed games while wanting childhood IP-licensed games

  • “i mean you are a hardcore fan of the theme so maybe you're not the right person to even ask this because yeah probably not”

    Alan @ after Doug Gale Cowett review — Acknowledges that John's nostalgia/theme fandom makes him unable to objectively evaluate the game's accessibility and replayability

Entities

John DozierpersonAlanpersonSpace JamgameLonnie RapppersonOren DaypersonJoe KamenkowpersonNBA Fast BreakgameGary SternpersonSega Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball community reviews reflexively compare unfavorably-received games to Gottlieb System 3 as negative comparison, despite Gottlieb's 30-40 year industry leadership. Alan expresses frustration at this pattern.

    medium · Alan: 'everyone always goes... well he's is not a got leave or even got leaves are better than this right and that drives me crazy'; 'keep got leaves name out your fucking mouth'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Pinside community perception of Space Jam is highly negative (ranked 280/290), but defender argues this reflects reviewer bias toward complex modern games rather than fair assessment of era-appropriate design

    high · Space Jam averages 6.624 rating; would rank lowest of any defended game on series; multiple reviews call it 'boring,' 'mundane,' 'excruciating' but praise operator revenue performance

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Space Jam's center saucer kicker is poorly designed and should have been a scoop; causes ramp damage and unpredictable ball routing. Video mode switch activation bug can deactivate flippers causing ball drain.

    high · Multiple reviewers mention saucer is 'weird'; Alan confirms seeing machines with torn ramps; Donald Duck describes specific bug where saucer activates video mode mid-shot, deactivating flippers

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Sega pinball had less development time/resources than larger competitors Williams/Bally due to lower market share, forcing faster turnaround cycles and less code polish

    high · Alan explains: 'if you're not selling as many units guess what your next game has to come out now because you didn't sell enough units so you get less time on your next year and your next game'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.122

0:00
Do with your money? Don't fucking tell me what to do with mine, okay? I'm not as dumb as you think I am. I will defend myself.
0:09
He means it, sweetheart. Well, that's because you're an idiot. I will fight and win because I am the most intelligent. You sure about that? You sure about that? I got something I want to say. A lot of you motherfuckers think you know who Kenny Powers is. Well, I'm here today to tell you all you don't know shit. Oh, I give up. You're going to get yourself killed, and this time I won't be able to save you. I make you laugh. I'm a clown. I amuse you. I'm here to fucking amuse you. Come on. Don't bullshit me. Go ahead and go. But I'm not going to stop yelling, because then that'll mean I lost the fight. So please leave a key under the mat. I love you all very much. Peace out.
0:50
Serenity now! What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. Okay, a simple wrong would have done just fine, but this makes no sense.
1:22
Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. My name is Alan, the host of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast and one of the owners of Wedgehead, a pinball bar in Portland, Oregon. I'm joined today by a special guest to do his die-on-the-hill game, Mr. John Dozier of Inner Orbit Pinball. Welcome, John. What game are you here to defend? We're going to talk some Space Jam. So Space Jam is a pinball machine released by Sega in 1996 based upon the popular movie starring Michael Jordan and the Looney Tunes. design credits via pinsider given to the trio of joe cam and cal lonnie roff and orin day lonnie and orin are also the programmers of the game and joe cam and cal was rarely credited as a solo designer of any of his games but it is sort of unusual to see three names attached but then i went on ipdb the internet pinball database and it's listed as a joe balser with joe cam and cal collab design it's almost like nobody really wanted to take full blame for this game is what I see in my research. It's currently only one approved rating on Pinside away from joining the official rankings list, but with 49 approved reviews, it has an average score of 6.624, which would currently rank it number 280 out of 290 ranked machines. And that would make this the lowest rated game that anyone has ever defended on this show. Are you ready, John? I'm not sure anymore. That sounds pretty rough. Okay, so just tell me about Space Jam, why you love Space Jam, what's the good about Space Jam, and, you know, plead your case to the listeners, people that maybe even never played it before. Okay, I'm gonna try. And I will admit that most of this is based on nostalgia. Space Jam as a kid was my life. I remember getting a cassette tape, I was probably in first grade, I don't know, and just blaring the music through the house. Love the movie. So that shouldn't have so much to do with my game rating, but it definitely does. I cannot separate the nostalgia from it. But I do think it's a fun game. It's a pretty fanny layout. It's very approachable. It's got a really fun toy with the basket. And I love that the vertical up kicker that shoots it into that half ball and it can divert it a couple different ways i think the skill shot is pretty cool and a lot of people don't know you can cycle your award with your left flipper to go through the hoop interesting yeah so i mean it makes the game even easier for multi-ball like you can get locks from that and stuff but i just think it's a really fun game um if you take pinball super seriously i think a lot of these die on the hill games kind of fall apart but it's pure fun to me and i am a sucker for those showcase cabinet Transite heads. Nice. What John is talking about is this was the era of Sega pinball. They were previously Data East pinball, and now they are known as Stern pinball today. So, this was a period where they made a few games with a concave back glass. So instead of the glass being flat, it was convex, I guess. It was convex so it would bulge out. a very strange shape that i think was meant to draw attention in an arcade but i'm sure operator and you're an operator you have one of these right like yeah yeah i do does it suck to move with that shape of the head yeah they built in this weird dumb arm system that kind of folds down to make that glass part flat not the glass part but it'll be an arm to kind of just have a flat resting place on the glass when you fold it down and mine's bent to shit just because it's i think probably all of them had to have been just from moving them around and it's supporting the weight on this little bar but yeah not not ideal for moving games at all yeah it's it's definitely a uh form over function type of design choice there i wonder if it worked at the time i mean data east which became sega which is now stern uh gary stern ran all three of those companies and he's always been about licensing. And one of the designers, Joe Kamenkow, he's famous for getting great licenses. So, you know, when this game was made, as Sean was saying, Space Jam was a massive movie. If you were born, you know, if you're a 2000s kid, maybe you don't realize that, but like in the 90s, as a 90s kid, it was a big deal. Like I remember going to see Space Jam in the theater. It was a big deal. I love Space Jam, the movie. And we'll still put it on the screens at Wedgehead because people in our age group will go crazy for it. They love seeing that on the screen, right? So it was kind of our generation's Who Framed Roger Rabbit. It's got that sort of 2D animation mixed with live action, in this case Michael Jordan, when he's still Michael Jordan, the most famous athlete in the whole world. But yeah, anything else you want to talk about? Space Jam, the pinball machine. So when you got into pinball and you found out there was a Space Jam machine, I mean, how excited were you? Pretty excited to the point where on Pinside, you can see who owns certain games around you. And I mass emailed probably 20 people within like four hours of me to see if anybody would sell them. And one of them worked. Nice. So you cold called to get one. Yeah, no, it paid off. Nice. Okay. Yeah. And how long have you had a Space Jam? Probably 2019, 2020, like right before COVID, I think is when I picked mine up. and you still love it i still love it and i actually was the person who did the coloring of the color dmd so that's another reason why i have some investment in it too like i put a lot of hours into that thing so you do love space jam so you're perfect to have on the show i when i reached out to you to join the show and asked if you had died in this whole game you said uh space jam and i was like yeah i think that qualifies um because all the good things you talked about it which i will just i went out and refreshed my memory i went out to um next level out here in uh hillsborough oregon uh for spring break and so i got to go out there and they had a space jam and i got to play it and refresh my memory and what john was saying is is true i think it's got two basketball hoops on the game it's got like your skill shot is kind of a launch jump launch into a small basketball hoop which is super cool although it seems to take no skill to hit it every time but it is cool like as far as like you're like you could just pull the plunger and it kind of always goes in but i mean i'm sure you can miss it if you tried but you'd have to be trying to miss it i think and then it's got another bigger hoop with a magnet in it and it's got another like the left ramp has like a little lip at the top and it's supposed to bounce up you know hit that backboard drop in through the basket there so you're scoring baskets because it's a basketball theme game i think the fit and finish of the game looks pretty good for a sega from that era i do i do have a soft spot for segas from that era and the previous data east games they show up a lot on this guy in this hill series but they were also the smaller company at the time they had less market share stern now is the 800 pound gorilla in the pinball manufacturing space but in the 90s they were running second to valley williams and the games that they were making and the thing about pinball is it's a manufacturing process the line has to keep moving so if you're not selling as many units guess what your next game has to come out now because you didn't sell enough units so you get less time on your next year and your next game and your next game so what modern players typically hate on some of these games for is like lack of code polish or you know modes it's just less than if you're comparing a bally williams game and certainly if you're going to a modern day comparison if you're a modern player that really really likes the deep modern rule sets even the valley williams games of the 90s aren't going to cut it for you but yeah i got to play space jam and i played a few games on it and i will say i had fun it was fun i don't know if i love it as much as john here but i didn't hate it i had a good time and it's been a while since i played one but it was fun unfortunately the reason why you're on the show is that your opinion and in my opinion, of, yeah, it's fun. That's not the consensus opinion on the internet. So, like I said, it's currently one approved rating shy of officially joining it, but as it sits now at its average score rating, it would rank number 280 out of 290 which is really low which is a little bit wild to me Looking at that list I like it nowhere near as bad as some of these other games right around it at the bottom of that list but i gonna go ahead and i'm gonna start reading you these bad reviews and i just want you to sort of react these are gonna hurt i'm gonna regret this yeah don't take them personally you love what you love and hopefully there will be some other people out there that can hear your impassioned cries for Space Jam and they'll be able to go out and play one and look at it through fresh rose-tinted glasses after they listen to this episode. Don't let the haters get you down, John, okay? Okay, let's do this. The first one I have is C Scott 19 says, This pinball seemed clunky and rough. Just wasn't smooth at all. I don't know if all Sega pinballs are like this, but if so, they can happen. What do you think about that review? Hmm, um... Not so fast, Doc. Do you think it feels clunky and rough? Other than being wrong?
Wedgehead Pinball Podcast
organization
Pinsideorganization
Next Levelorganization
Inner Orbit Pinballorganization
Sega Star Wars (Trilogy)game
Gottlieb System 3 gamesgame
Trongame
Iron Mangame
Guardians of the Galaxygame
Michael Jordanperson
Bugs Bunny's Birthday Ballgame
Spooky Pinball Looney Tunes gamegame

collector_signal: John Dozier explicitly acknowledges he cannot separate his nostalgia for Space Jam film/IP from his evaluation of the pinball machine; Alan notes reviewer hypocrisy where middle-aged men trash child-themed games while desperately wanting Goonies/Labyrinth

high · John: 'I cannot separate the nostalgia from it'; Alan: reviewers 'screaming for goonies and labyrinth like stuff from their childhood' while dismissing Space Jam as 'for kids'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: John defends programmers Lonnie Rapp and Oren Day against 'lazy coder' accusation, arguing resource/time constraints—not skill—explain Space Jam's rule set simplicity; cites their later quality work (Tron, Iron Man, Guardians)

    high · Donald Duck review claims 'lazy coders'; John responds: 'shouldn't be on them... sometimes they're not given the time and resources'; cites Lonnie's 'Guardians which I know launched with like pretty bare bones code that nobody liked but now it's like one of my favorite spike two games'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Era context: Space Jam designed for location/arcade operators (quarters revenue) not home collectors; high license (Michael Jordan, 1996) made commercial sense despite limited lifetime units (800)

    high · Alan: 'these games were made when location pinball was king you weren't selling to the home market so this was a hot license at the time'; John: 'mine earns pretty darn well for what it is'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Space Jam intentionally designed for approachable/casual play with easy skill shots and locks, limiting replayability for hardcore players but appealing to location operators and casual audiences

    high · John: 'very approachable layout'; Alan: skill shot 'always goes in'; reviewers complain it's 'too easy,' 'only for kids,' 'excruciating in 3+ games'; John reports it 'earns pretty darn well for what it is'

  • ?

    product_strategy: NBA Fast Break (2009, Stern) appears to be spiritual successor to Space Jam; uses similar ramp-into-hoop mechanic; higher Pinside rating; lower production run (250 vs 800), suggesting operator/location success drove remake decision

    high · Alan: 'they basically took this layout and tweaked it, right?'; 'gary saw because... he's probably like... operators are pulling out buckets of quarters... we'll just do it again'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Space Jam criticized for simplicity and lack of competitive depth; reviewers compare negatively to modern/complex rulesets; game positioning for casual operators not tournament/dedicated players

    medium · Reviews mention 'if you take pinball super seriously... fall apart'; 'limited shots'; 'mundane'; Alan notes location appeal vs hardcore player appeal are different markets

    • 11:09
    No, I mean... I don't think so either. I don't... It didn't feel clunky to me. Clunky is not the word I would describe it. I will say the saucer shot is weird in the center of the playfield. Yeah, it is. It's not... That should have been a scoop, probably. I think the ramps are... Oh, yeah. Mine gets torn to pieces because it's not. Yeah. Everyone I've ever seen is torn to pieces. Can I ask you, John, as a Space Jam super fan of both the movie and the pinball machine? Sure. Is that saucer supposed to kick out in different directions every time? Or is it? Mine only goes to the left slipper. Okay. So, okay. So I was playing one and I was kicking out wildly different, like wildly different to the left or to the right or even to like near the right out lane and i thought it was hey this might actually be kind of like a sick little feature like uh you know like it maybe it has like three little kicker arms in there or something like i didn't look super close at it but i was like oh is this like a you know because i know i'm like flash gordon they'll have that that center saucer that'll either kick it towards you it'll kick it up to the upper play field and i was like is this one of those where it just has like a different kicker on it but maybe it was just loose or something that was striking the ball weird there's also a really weird switch in there it's like just a like if you bent a paper clip into a circle like it's got so that plunger can sometimes hit that too and get caught on it and it might be something like that i don't know i noticed that it had like little ring switches like little wire ring switches in the saucers i'm like what a weird switch all right so i got another one stained undies says mj mj mj that's all this game is bugs bunny's annoying voice yelling mj at you bugs mike the game's fatal flaws are the skill shot repetitive and way too easy and the toy backboard which never seems to catch the ball toss in some bland ass graphics and ear drilling call outs in that space jam oh wait you pesky wabbit i've got you now the basketball lock shot is chill locks are clearly indicated and the shot is fun and easy to hit with a backhand or forehand they like that it was an easy um lock shot but not that the other stuff was easy so i think that's kind of interesting but what was it stained underwear i don't know if you can take his word for it Yeah, stained undies. He seems to hate the art, and he hates the call-outs. I mean, they're not great, but I think they're pretty theme-appropriate. I definitely don't get offended looking at the art. I think it's exactly what you would want with a Looney Tunes Space Jam game. Yeah, I think it's not, you know, the art's probably not as good as Spooky's new Looney Tunes game. And I was also looking at a Bugs Bunny's birthday ball today as well. And the art on that is really good. So I think if you're comparing like Looney Tunes games, it maybe is the weakest art package, but I don't, it wasn't heinous to me in any way. It didn't jump out to me. I was like, oh, this game's ugly. Like there's a lot of Stern games before they started in the early 2000s where I'm like, these are atrocious. like CSI or 24 like those are packages oh yeah what is this like what is this so bad yeah this is not even art you know like it's like I think these segas it's like it's all relative right because like right after this when they became stern and started making those early stern games like nowadays if listeners are listening to this they're like what do you mean stern has awesome art you're like yeah there was a while there where they were making games with oh yeah it was it was ugly ugly so this doesn't i don't i don't think it's super ugly i didn't get to hear a lot of the call outs because i was in a busy arcade but take his word for it i mean he was offended by it could be annoying if you don't like looney tunes right one thing i will say is the match animation in the taz sound is about four times louder than the rest of the sound so that's really annoying so I'll give him that. Okay. Small concession here. Don't bring me here anymore, Ray. Are you listening? Did you hear him? That little brat is right. I've... Right, right. Doug Gale Cowett says, Just looking at the machine looks like it should be a pretty fun game to play. But stepping up to it is a different story. Maybe the game was intended for little kids. And so they kept it real simple. Or maybe that is simply the mode it has been set to every time I've encountered it in the wild. Three or more games in a row on this feels excruciating. He's the one I want for Moron Mountain. Hey! Unless you're a hardcore fan of the theme, I see no redeeming quality. Although it's still better than Rogo. That would be bad. You've got to give us a chance to defend ourselves.
    16:27
    Rogo is a machine that's famously hated by tournament players. that's a wild review what do you think about it it is a very approachable layout i get it and the locks are pretty easy to get and they just kind of get more wood choppy from there but i think i don't know if there's an adjustment i've never thought to change this perfection that it is um but i'm sure if you wanted to make it more difficult you could but yeah it is a very approachable layout so i can see how they would say it's kind of kiddy he said three or more games in a row on this feels excruciating that is that's a little that's a little much that's a little what he says only a hardcore fan of the theme otherwise i see no redeeming qualities no redeeming qualities like i mean you are a hardcore fan of the theme so maybe you're not the right person to even ask this because yeah probably not i'm just like i'm still like i don't know i played three games in a on it. I wasn't in excruciating pain playing it. That's a wild one. But I got another one. We got Got Pinball Says. This could have been a really cool pin with the MJ theme. Two squad at six foot six from North Carolina is Royal Awareness Michael Jordan.
    17:50
    After a while though, I found it very mundane with limited shots and all the ramp returns. Hmm. Um, do you think it'd be better without the Looney Tunes and without space jam? If it was just MJ Duncan on somebody in a Chicago bulls uniform?
    18:09
    No, I mean, they kind of did that with NBA and that's worse. Yeah. Well, Oh dude. And that's what we got to bring up is NBA by Stern. They basically took this layout and tweaked it, right? Like it's very similar. Yeah. Does it have a spinning disc, too? It does. It's got a little something different, I think. Yeah. It is a little bit different. Like, they took out the skill shot basket, but, like, the jump ramp into the hoop is the same thing. It's the same exact mech in the same place. So they clearly went back to it. So it wasn't like it was a total dog. Free design, I guess. Free design. Yeah. I mean, they still modified it. um i wonder though if it yeah it must have done well i've never played one i it's not as good as space jam so like of the two i think it's weird that i think space jam is better i don't know maybe their rules are better on nba i haven't spent a lot of time on it either they're both fairly rare games like that yeah yeah i hadn't played one before i got one so i had never even played the game before i wanted to get one i'm pretty sure that they only made about like 800 space jams so oh yeah it's a really rare game that you're probably still only able to get for a good price because so many people trash it so i guess that's the benefit of yeah you know the benefit of it because otherwise if like if people thought this game was excellent it'd be expensive you know it's not yeah it says uh 800 produced of space jam so wow i i had no idea honestly but it must have done well on location or something for gary to then be like we should do this again right as nba yeah so nba it has a listed production run at 250 i don't know how accurate that is because that's when stern kind of stopped really trying to give production numbers but they redid it as NBA in 2009 listed at 250 So it has a higher average rating than Space Jam and i think for all the reasons people are saying that it too easy is probably why it would have done well just because it is that kind of approachable have fun sort of game yeah i bet it was probably gary saw because gary's been in the pinball industry you know since he was a teenager right with his dad sam stern and all that kind of stuff and so he knows the business and he knows operators and distributors so he's probably like oh yeah we didn't sell a lot of these games but when it was on location in the test markets you know operators are pulling out buckets of quarters right so he was probably like we'll just do it again and then this time we'll sell them but again they didn't so yeah mine earns pretty darn well for what it is too so i can attest to that there you go right like sometimes you need a good gimmick on a pinball machine i think this game has some cool gimmicks center flank says this one didn't do anything for me sorry i wet myself so at least he's like apologetic he's like no you know not for me i appreciate that yeah which i think is I think that's polite. Um, actually, Pinball Loner says, I played this yesterday. The shots in Space Jam are similar to Sega's Star Wars machine.
    21:47
    Alright, the party's over. Get in the spaceship. Annoying and boring. If you start one mode, you need to complete it or lose the ball before you can start another mode. Annoying.
    22:01
    More than mountain, here we come. The animations on the dot matrix screen are so-so. Tweety Bird looks awful is but one example. The Roadrunner bit is cool for a quick second, and I love Daffy, Bugs, Porky, and Tweety, but didn't care for the film or this pinball machine. So he says annoying and boring. He also says the shots are similar to Sega's Star Wars. That game is trash. So like the trilogy? Yeah, that game. Sega, anyone who's listening, if you like Sega Star Wars, I would love to have you defend that game because I truly think that game is horrible. Does it shoot that way? Have you played Sega Star Wars? So I played, yeah, I played it at TPF pretty recently, so I didn't get any hint of that. Maybe, I mean, the left or the right ramp on space. I actually, I can't really put that together. Like there's weird shots all over Star Wars trilogy. I have no idea. Yeah, I don't, I don't get that at all. I don't know why he says that. I guess there's the lower, I don't, I don't know. I'm looking at a layout of it right now. I don't see it.
    23:20
    But he also said annoying and boring. And then he said, if you start one mode, you need to complete it or lose the ball before you can start another mode. Okay. This is making me question my Space Jam knowledge. They don't time out? I thought they had a timer.
    23:34
    Yeah. And a lot of them you start at that wabbit hole. That just sounds weird to say. You said it out loud. The wabbit hole. The hoop in the middle. The wabbit hole.
    23:46
    Are there any other areas besides basketball where you find yourself unable to perform? but i'm pretty sure they're timed but i've never noticed being locked out of anything on that like progression well it's pinball loaneries he's comparing it to sega star wars which is interesting anyway oh i have a review from someone called donald duck he says just not a very good pin he's gotta love it no he does not love it he says just not a very good pin and much too easy to get to Final Jam. Not a lot of meat on the bone here, with much of the gameplay and shots being far too easy. The best feature is the background scoring with Magnet, and it being themed with Michael Jordan. It scores better than the average Sega from this time period.
    24:39
    Very smooth. She's obviously nuts about me. But it's just not a game you want to play over and over again, unless you like limitations and all too simplistic gameplay. Also, if you have a rabbit hole that's chewed up, like most, a design flaw rears its ugly head in that it can pop in that hole, immediately pop out, but not before activating the switch, which can put you into video mode, which deactivates the flippers, thus your ball trains. Very poorly executed, but at least the video mode is pretty fun. Facts are facts. It was programmed. Oh, this is bad. Facts are facts. it was programmed by lazy coders that continue to this day to well code lazy while it's not a terrible pin it's far from a great one while i personally don't mind the showcase bubble back box it's a stupid design for transporting the game which is why it didn't last for a basketball fix i think gottlieb shack is a much better overall game basketball it is basketball whoa there's a lot on that one yeah this is i don't like his last paragraph here where he said facts are facts it was programmed by lazy coders that continue to this day to code lazy like i said Lonnie Rapp and Oren Day are listed as programmers. Those guys worked for Data East and Sega, and Lonnie for sure, and maybe Oren even still does, but Lonnie for sure is still coding games at Stern to this day, and he's not a bad coder. I like a lot of Lonnie's games in particular, and I've played Oren's games that I also really like, so I don't really appreciate the slander that this guy's talking about them. Like I said, I think for these guys, it's not about their passion for pinball or their skill set. It's like sometimes they're not given the time and resources to flesh out a rule set to this guy, to Donald Duck's personal taste. And that shouldn't be on them. And he feels like he's holding a grudge to this day. That's crazy. But he did bring up... He's got this weird reputation. Right? but people for some reason uh dog on him for i don't know if it's star trek or i don't know but yeah it's kind of unwarranted i think but star trek's a great game you're talking about stern trek right yes one yeah i i don't know if it's like people think he takes too long or whatever but he also did uh guardians which i know launched with like pretty bare bones code that nobody liked but now it's like one of my favorite spike two games like i love guardians i think guardians is rad and i love the rule set of it that's a big part of it good um and then lonnie did tron with lyman and he did iron man with lyman which are two of my favorite games those are older sterns but i love those games and like i was like i like lonnie rock games it's ridiculous man screw you donald duck he was having a bad day i think when he wrote that he even says it scores better than the average Sega, but then just dogs on them for being lazy coders. And what's crazy... Okay, so let's talk about... He did bring up this. He said, you have a rabbit hole that's chewed up, like most. A design flaw rears its ugly head. You pop in that hole, it immediately pop out, but not before activating the switch. Puts you into video mode, but that deactivates the flippers, thus your ball drains. Very poorly executed. At least the video mode's pretty fun. Video mode is fun, and that does sound like it sucks. If that's happening on your game, that didn't happen to me when I was playing but like I said at the top of the episode I could see that saucer is a little bit weird should have been a scoop and like we said it does have weird switches on it so I could see this happening I could see how that would be insanely frustrating as a player if you go to put money in a game and you play that and that happens ugh yeah I've never had that happen on mine and never had it reported yeah i'm gonna need to move on we need a palate cleanser for that one nitro mikey says if you're looking for a one-off looking machine that doesn't fit in well with even a system 3 got leap you have come to the right place lackluster play and unusual cabinet back box design take away any hope of this being an eye-catching pin i say i resemble that remark so it seems like he just doesn't like the way the machine looks i guess this is only complaint only listed complaint and how you responded that donald duck is how i feel about this person i am deeply offended by that yeah right that's crazy i don't like him dragging in this is a common thing too when i see people write bad reviews for like data east or sega games when we do these die in the hills or even like the lesser thought of bally williams games that we've done everyone always goes they always go well he's is not a got leave or even got leaves are better than this right and that drives me crazy now got leave at at this time in the 90s when he says system 3 he means uh dmd got leaves which are admittedly not their best era but there are still some fun games mixed in that and Gottlieb was for 30 or 40 years the industry leader in pinball and that's where we got our name Wedgehead was a nickname for their single player EM machines in the wedge shaped back box so I always get I always just like why is everyone dragging Gottlieb leaves name dude keep got leaves name out your fucking mouth you right just like everyone always has to be like i throwing shade on this machine and then i gotta like crossfade with this with the system got leap hate and i don't get it like anyway it's cool to hate them it is cool it seems like everyone's willing to hate those so if we actually need to do more system three die in this hill so in the future if anyone likes system 3 got leap games you want to join the show and defend one i'm your man send me an email to wedgeheadinfo at gmail.com tell me which one you want to defend and we'll set it up eddie says played it and didn't like it a bit of a low point in my opinion for space jam fans only how does that you might be right i do you think you would like it if if it was not space jam i think it could go both ways like if it was a more serious adult theme not adult but like not for children like everybody's suggesting maybe i think i think the theme kind of clouds people's judgment both ways like clearly mine right yours is for the good there's two it's just not something right right and then for other people maybe for the bad like it's oh it's only for kids which is funny because that comes up in a lot of these too is there's like a lot of like middle-aged men typically are on a pin side writing and they're always i don't want they always say it's kitty or it's only for kids or this game's only for kids but they're the ones like screaming for goonies and labyrinth like stuff from their childhood they don't they would desperately want to buy which is kind of interesting exactly exactly it's just not their demographic right but also these games were made when location pinball was king you weren't selling to the home market so this was a hot license at the time it made sense i'm actually surprised i know this is like the downturn in the later 90s you know this is 96 um when they're selling less units of pinball machines but i'm still surprised that only sold 800 it's it seems very low me too it's surprising i wonder what the story is on that i got two more reviews and then we'll i'll let you off the hot seat but geo ninja says the gameplay is very bad too simple with just one ramp to jump your ball where is bugs bunny i bought this pinball and after four weeks i sold it never want to play it again finished great speech and all doc you had him riveted but it does have two ramps though right he says one ramp but there's two ramps for sure like he mentions the ramp that is like the iffy ramp but not the main right ramp yeah the right ramp is a big swoopy nice plastic ramp that's um that you can loop oh it's super fun to hit oh he well he bought it and after four weeks he sold it too simple gameplay very bad because where's bugs bunny and where's bugs bunny i mean he's he's in the game right i guess he's not in the game enough talking constantly right he's always just made mj mj mj right all right so i'll get to the last one this is i'm gonna warn you in advance this is one of maybe my favorite review i've ever read we had one the last time on Sinbad that was really good. This is a good one. This is, and it's short. Adam the Gamer says, Space Jam is my personal least favorite pin of all time. Don't be embarrassed. Just face it.
    34:20
    You guys stink. Come on, Mike. I've never played any game that left me more disappointed in my entire life. Ah, brother, here I am in the peak of my form playing second, reactions um so no other context that's that's his comment yeah um it must have hurt him real bad um i don't understand were you expecting that like do you have a game putting you on the spot but like do you have a game that sticks out in your mind as because everyone has the worst game they've ever played right like what do you think yours is i mean it's clear in that spaceship i i didn't think i know it's not well regarded but it yeah i was surprised to hear that because i'm like whoa you think this is the worst yeah i i would think it's i was expecting more mid-tier like i mean i guess we wouldn't be talking and it wouldn't be that low if it was all mid-tier but yeah i'm a little surprised i have a lot of grace for games apparently because i generally like most games so this is really uh destroying my case for this one i love the guys in boston that came on and did Popeye, but I really dislike that game. And after going back and replaying it, I'm like, I really don't like that game. I really don't like Road Kings, which is a Mark Ritchie game. Road Kings I do not like. That game sucks. And I love Mark Ritchie. That's the worst part, is I love that dude. I'm a ride-or-die Mark Ritchie fan. Episode 2, we talk about Mark. I love Mark Ritchie games. I just don't like that one at all. and alex my co-host he has an ultra man and i've been on record i was like i don't like this i like a lot of spooky games that they make but i definitely don't like that one at all like i'm excited to see i've never played ultra man it's like all i mean my main problems aren't that like i think the art's good and i think that they put the clips in and it's pretty good i just don't like the uh i don't i think the layout is so clunky and bad everything feels bad to me oh yeah in a way that's like everything just kind of clunks around and the main ramps are really wide on the lower play field you're always into the the side hedges or whatever and then it has to roll down it has a servo that lifts it up and it just you always end up there on accident and the ramp goes from like and it just kind of oh yeah clunks around and is weird you know like it just feels bad and and then there's like an upper play field and the ball will just like drop through a hole and then drop into the back of a scoop you know or a subway or something and it'll count that shot as if you hit the play like i'm just like uh just like the kinetic satisfaction is not there for me but i'm very excited to play their new games because they look really good uh i love Rick and Morty and I love TNA and like I said they're Looney Tunes Texas Chainsaw like oh this is a big jump to me like this looks really good I'm pretty excited to play them I played it at Texas I don't like to hate on a lot of these games uh and I I'm like you like I have a higher tolerance of like sometimes it's just fun to play a game that I don't get to play a lot is this the game I want to play every day for the rest of my life I just no maybe not but like it's only a handful of games that really stand out was like oh i don't like this at all right oh i'll tell you when to get the fans riled up before we get out of here on this episode because i know it has there's like a lot of tournament players that like this game but mustang by stern trash if anyone's listening i hate that game if you want to come and defend it i'd love to have you defend it so just throwing that out there you know what's kind of interesting um i've only played it like three times so i guess i don't have too strong of an opinion i've always heard it as like people are like no it's actually really good it's got really good rules and like tournament players seem to like it roti had one he brought it into wedgehead like as we were building out wedgehead like six years ago and he brought it in he brought it in with a target alpha and we were playing target alpha which is an em with a lot of drop targets rad game and then he brought that in and we're playing it and in the middle of it it's just like multi we're just multi-mole multi-mole multi-mole we're just playing it and just rushing i'm in the middle of ball too and i'm just like this game sucks dude take it out of here and he's like he's like no and i was like he's like i brought it it would just be like on our work breaks or whatever as we're building up the space was like i don't even want it stinking up the joint like i just don't want it here at all and then i was like look me in the eyes and tell me it's good because roti's like a contrarian he could see that i don't like something so he wants to like tell me you know he's like no it's actually pretty good man and then he was looking at me i was like tell me it's good tell me it's good and even he couldn't do it even he was like all right all right i guess it's not that good well i'm excited for the person who comes on and defends that one yeah somebody will that'll be a good one you and them yeah somebody will enjoy it there's a guy in the local scene uh william so william if you're listening to this episode i know you love this game come on the show and defend it yeah i want to thank you John for joining me on another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. For anyone listening, I hope this cleared up some things about Space Jam. It's crazy low rated. Like I said, we've done a few of these Die on the Hill segments now, and this is the lowest rated out of all of them, which is crazy. But I want to thank John for coming on the show to defend it. And for anyone listening, this is your time. Get on the pinball map. See if there's any way there's a Space Jam on location near you. If you're in the Springfield, Missouri area, John has a Space Jam on location for you to play. For everyone else, it might be for a show. Look for it on a floor. If you ever find one, play it for yourself and make up your own mind. Until next time, good luck. Don't suck. Everybody get up, it's time to slam now. We got the real jam going down. Welcome to the Space Jam. Here's your chance, do your dance at the Space Jam. All right.