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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 32: Who Is Driving This Bus?!

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 28m·held·Mar 1, 2023
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.028

TL;DR

Bond 60th gameplay impressions and pricing defense amid announcements of Foo Fighters and Galactic Tank Force.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast episode discussing the Bond 60th pinball reveal stream hosted by Jack Danger, featuring gameplay commentary, mechanical design details, and pushback against community criticism about the game's $20,000+ price point. The hosts also cover the imminent Foo Fighters and Galactic Tank Force announcements that broke during/after recording.

Key Claims

  • Bond 60th was designed per licensor request for a classic/older-style pin, with Stern having to convince them to also do the Cornerstone modern version

    high confidence · Joel explains licensor specifically requested older pin design; Stern made both versions

  • Bond 60th ships with version 1.03 and is essentially a complete game; more voice callouts will be added but code and depth are finished

    high confidence · Joel states during stream discussion

  • The hat disc mechanism in Bond 60th is completely re-engineered from Avengers disc with counter-balancing and bearing system to always settle in same position

    high confidence · Joel describes designer commentary from stream explaining new mechanical design

  • Bond Cornerstone now supports mode stacking where multiball prioritizes video assets while showing mode progress in corner logo/tally bar

    high confidence · Joel discusses recent code update addressing licensor's requirement that video assets not intermix from different movies

  • Keith Elwin discovered backhand technique for inline drop targets on Bond 60th during stream gameplay

    high confidence · Hosts describe Keith coaching George Gomez on technique during official reveal stream

  • Foo Fighters and Galactic Tank Force announcements occurred immediately after/during episode recording

    high confidence · Editor's note at episode beginning; hosts did not cover officially in main discussion

  • Bond collecting community has significant purchasing power and different expectations than mainstream pinball players

    medium confidence · Joel defends game design choice explaining Bond collectors are 'a different breed' with high buying interest

  • Travis scored zero points three times in a world championship match to earn 'PiNbALL DeGENeRaTES' award

    high confidence · Travis and hosts joke about earning the trophy by scoring 0-0-0 at championship

Notable Quotes

  • “Somebody's got to drive the bus. And so I'm driving and I get two people in the back complaining the whole time.”

    Joel @ ~3:30 — Establishes recurring joke about Joel hosting/controlling the podcast while Tom and Travis push back

  • “This pin was made specifically for the licensor because apparently the licensor, this is what the licensor requested first. They wanted an older pin.”

    Joel @ ~42:00 — Key insight into Bond 60th's design rationale and how licensing drives product decisions

  • “I mean, of course it is [a cash grab]. Like what, what manufacturer out there is trying to not turn a profit and pay their employees?”

    Joel @ ~47:00 — Direct response to community criticism, reframing profitability as necessary business function

  • “The pin can be sold for whatever anybody wants to sell it. So just because you... Somebody can sell it for 50,000. They wanted to. Somebody could sell it for a dollar.”

    Tom @ ~43:00 — Clarification that Stern's $20k MSRP doesn't dictate secondary market pricing

  • “If you only knew the amount of time and hours we invested in that Mac to make it spin the way it does and then settle itself back the way it does. It is a completely new Mac.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~35:00 — Defends mechanical engineering effort in response to 'just Avengers disc' criticism

  • “His arms do not go above his shoulders. That's impossible.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~20:00 — Humorous observation of Keith's unusual emotional reaction to double-hitting inline drops

Entities

JoelpersonTravis MosemanpersonTompersonKeith ElwinpersonGeorge GomezpersonJack DangerpersonBrad JohanssonpersonBond 60thgame[name withheld pending review]game

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Official Bond 60th reveal stream hosted by Jack Danger on Deadflip with designer appearances generated significant community engagement

    high · Detailed discussion of stream content, gameplay mechanics, designer commentary; multiple attendee reactions noted

  • ?

    code_update: Bond Cornerstone received code update enabling mode stacking with licensor-compliant video asset prioritization

    high · Joel explains technical implementation where multiball prioritizes video while showing mode progress in corner HUD

  • ?

    design_innovation: Bond 60th features completely re-engineered disc mechanism with counter-balancing and bearing system distinct from Avengers disc

    high · Designer commentary during stream; disc always settles to safe position; doesn't allow flipper-manipulation positioning like Avengers

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Bond licensor requires strict separation of video assets across movie themes; prevents multiball and mode video intermingling

    high · Joel discusses how this constraint drove creative decisions in both 60th and Cornerstone code implementations

  • $

    market_signal: Community criticism of Bond 60th $20k+ MSRP prompted host defense of manufacturer profitability necessity and licensor-driven design

    high · Joel and Tom provide extended business/hobby comparison arguments; note game designed per licensor request for older layout

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.265

0:00
All right. Well, quick editor's note, we recorded this episode on Friday morning and we finished recording, literally shut everything down, put away all the streaming rig and everything. And then all of a sudden my phone starts blowing up. And that's when Stern released the Foo Fighters announcement trailer. So Tom and Travis and I were like, what do we what can we do? And I'm like, I got to go pick up my kids. Do we do we record something real quick? and then so we thought about recording something to add on and then the very next day American Pinball comes out with their little Galactic Tank Force kind of trailer little thing and it doesn't say Galactic Tank Force anywhere except for the very bottom of the screen and so we're just like what's what I don't know so we thought about recording you know a little bit more to add to it but then we realized Tuesday is when the actual reveal is going to come out so that'll even be outdated so long story short when we recorded this we had we didn't know officially about Foo Fighters we didn't know officially about Galactic Tank Force so you know good timing but hey it was still a fun episode still a lot of speculating so enjoy it and yeah we will definitely share more thoughts on it once the official reveals come out so all right enjoy the episode
1:24
The Pinball Network is online. Launching Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. All right, Tom, are you ready?
1:41
Yes, but does anybody have five bucks? What? Why do you need five dollars? Nothing. Oh, OK. Travis, are you ready? Tom, I don't have $5, but have you ever wondered why we don't get to start the intros to this podcast? I kind of wondered that. I know. You know, Tom gets the intro. We just asked Joel a second ago. We were like, Joel, why can't we do the intro? And he just ignored it and just started it. Hey, Travis, if you want to edit the podcast, you're welcome to start the intro. Wasn't Joel like, this is my show, damn it, and I'll do what I want? Somebody's got to drive the bus. And so I'm driving and I get two people in the back complaining the whole time. And that's fine. I'm ready. Perfect. Thank God. Well, buckle up, everybody, because we have a video intro. So here we go.
Foo Fightersgame
Galactic Tank Forcegame
Stern Pinballcompany
American Pinballcompany
Deadfliporganization
Alter Creative Mediacompany
[name withheld pending review]person
Raymond Davidsonperson
Tim Sextonperson
Don't Panic Flipperson
DOMINO Pinball: Neil McRaeperson
District 82event

gameplay_signal: Bond 60th designed with short ball times and built-in co-op for collective group play rather than solo depth

high · Joel contrasts with modern pins like Godzilla; describes goal as 'social fun' vibe; emphasizes brutality and quick play

  • ?

    content_signal: Triple Drain created community-sourced video intro generated by Brad Johansson unsolicited; multiple proposals accepted

    high · Initial designer approached; Brad created independently; both projects moving forward with intro and separate Tom Talks video

  • ?

    announcement: Foo Fighters and Galactic Tank Force announcements occurred during/immediately after episode recording; host plans follow-up coverage

    high · Editor's note at episode start; hosts acknowledge they didn't officially cover either game; Galactic Tank Force reveal scheduled for Tuesday

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Community speculation about unannounced titles (Foo Fighters, Galactic Tank Force) creating content timing challenges for podcast

    medium · Hosts discuss timing conflict; Foo Fighters trailer broke during episode recording; Galactic Tank Force branding minimal in trailer

  • ?

    industry_signal: Bond market clearly segmented toward high-value collectors with different priorities than mainstream location/casual players

    high · Joel explains Bond collectors 'are a different breed' with significant purchasing power; acknowledges accessibility concerns for casual players

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Keith Elwin discovered backhand inline drop target technique during stream; generated unusual emotional response from designer

    high · Hosts describe Keith coaching George on technique; note Keith's rare enthusiasm; mention Gomez hadn't seen this in decades

  • ?

    personality_signal: Travis Murie earned 'Most Degenerate Score' award by scoring zero points three times in world championship match

    high · Extended discussion of trophy; Travis describes sacrifice of full ball for achievement; hosts mock the accomplishment

    • 2:33
    We, we, we're three guys who like to talk and ball. So we came up with a clever name. We're Joel and Travis down the talk and ball. And we call ourselves Triple Drink. Triple train, triple train, we're triple, triple train. Triple train. Oh, wow. There we go. Wait, wait, wait, Joel, Joel. I opened up my DJ board. Yes, is it broken? Well, it's not broken, but the batteries.
    3:12
    Two out of the three batteries, and they're like hanging out. I don't know what happened. well if anybody's watching this on youtube uh you guys saw we have a video intro we have a video intro um what's really cool about that is we actually had a guy that reached out to us when i made the comment and he said i'd love to make this and i said great that's awesome and so i gave that guy all the stuff that that was needed to make it the song and and everything he needed to potentially make that well fast forward a week uh over the weekend happens and we just get an email from a guy and this guy's name is Brad Johansson. Hopefully I'm saying that right. And he just said, Hey, I put this together. I hope you guys enjoy it. And it wasn't the original guy. It was just a guy who said, who just did it. He just made us a video intro and we were blown away. We were blown away. So I actually reached back out to the first guy and said, I don't know if you've started this or not, but we had another person that did this. And so the first guy is actually going to make us a Tom Talks video. So everybody be ready for that. But yes, we were super impressed with that. I had a few comments back and forth. He changed just one or two. God, there he goes. And Travis is already gone. He changed one or two minor things. But overall, Brad put that together entirely on his own. And he actually does video. That's his job. So he actually has a company. So it's Alter Creative Media. They're based out of Rochester. He does a bunch of different stuff, but he'd love to do more pinball stuff. So if anybody needs any sort of video done, whether you're in pinball or out of pinball or whatever, feel free to reach out to Brad. I'll put his email address. It's altercreativemedia.com. I will put that in our show notes so you can check him out. But, Brad, thank you very much. Thank you for that. And I'm excited to continue to play that for many, many times. So if you happen to be driving the car and listening to it on the audio podcast, go watch the YouTube video just for the intro because we really, really had a good time with it. And then click off of it. Don't watch the rest. Yeah, you can stop after that. That's fine. Yeah, we just need the initial view. That's all we need. Hey, Tom, where do you think our awards and trophies should go? I don't know. I was going to put mine on my shoulder. Yeah. Hey Joel, where are you going to put your awards and trophies at?
    5:31
    You mean this one? This one right here? This streaming award that I got last year? What is that? Shit. Damn it.
    5:41
    What the hell? This is the runner-up. Have you literally been holding that this whole entire time? No, I haven't. You say that's the runner-up trophy? It's runner-up. What's it like to get something like that? Yeah, this isn't a runner-up trophy, Joel. I actually just thought of that because I knew you wanted to rub it in my face. Yes. But no, that's my one pinball-related award. That's the one thing I have. Can you turn it on, the pinball degenerates award? Does it light up? I tried. Is it broken?
    6:13
    It's not turning on. That's fitting. It's awesome. I appreciate it. It's pretty cool. He got the most degenerate score award. Yep. Hey, I don't know. What was that score, Travis? You know what? It was double zero. And I had to work my ass off for this award. I mean, legitimately.
    6:36
    Think about it, Tom. Okay. All Joel had to do is like to show up. Right. Yeah. All I had to do. Right. I mean, he's got 10 points. I'm bad. Yeah. I mean, let's face facts. It's not difficult to come on. I mean, I mean, you know, you and Carl, you guys just roll out. out of bed and it's fine the stream works it does itself essentially let's just face facts here but i i had to legitimately score zero points three times yep in a world championship against three of the best players in the world and give up a full pinball in order to win this so you know sacrifice ball one i mean yeah i'm i don't want to brag jules but you call them randoms or something No, randos. You like that Facebook? Still those randos.
    7:26
    Me and three randos in a pinball tournament. Yep. Nope, they're pretty good. Zala's pretty good. Escher's pretty good. And I guess, yeah, Elwin. Elwin, whatever. He's okay. He's done a little bit. Yep.
    7:40
    Yeah, shout out to Keith Elwin. He's had a big week. I mean, first off, he did a stream of a game that he made. No big deal. We're going to talk about it a little bit. But even bigger week, he actually played at a tournament up at District 82, and we happened to notice on day one. More than one tournament, Joel. I know. I'm making light of it, Tom. I'm making light of it. But he wore day one. He wore a Triple Train shirt. So I got mine on. Tom's got his on. Travis is a bum. I have a hat. Oh, he's got a hat. Okay. Can you not read? I have a hat. Look at this. yeah i see it don't touch anything you're gonna break the computer everybody see what i have to work with like i could be doing anything else on a friday morning i could be working i could be playing harry potter should be working is what we should be i could be talking to my wife no you can't i could even be sitting out on the porch and just staring at a tree but no i'm here i'm here with joel and tom tom i love you thank you so much i was just gonna say i always get left out No. No, Tom, you never do. We noticed you have a new mic back there. Yeah, well, first off, before we get in the mic, you got a trophy there too. What is that one? This is my Player 2 Grand Champion trophy. It's a Chewy. Oh, I forgot. It was before the podcast. It's Chewy. I think that's awesome.
    9:07
    Yeah, I just like it. Wow. Yes. And as Travis was pointing out, you got a new mic for your streaming rig. I see back there. Yeah, I'm trying it out. So are you going for like a 1920s vibe now? Like in your streams, like black and white? You're going to wear like a suit, like a business suit when you play? The blue baby bottle mic is recommended by George with Don't Panic Flip. That's his current mic that he's testing. Good streamer. It's called a what?
    9:35
    It's called a blue baby bottle. A blue baby bottle. Yep, that's the mic. I'll have to look that up. Yeah, you'll have to let us know what you think. But so we're 13 minutes into the podcast and we have not talked about quality pinball machine. This is quality content. We got to make fun of you. We've proved you can't read. So that's that's excellent. And you've only ripped on me like three times. So, yeah, I just I don't it's not ripping. I'm just pointing out the obvious. That's all it is. It's just just pointing out the obvious. You're a truth teller. That's what it is. Well, hey, I applaud you. You're once again, your room is continuing to look better and better. so it's evolving you've hung i don't know what's gonna go on the back i think you should get a stern banner for the back all right so monica mentioned that because i i'm i mean i didn't do this monica did that and that but she mentioned about getting a banner back here and i was just like i don't know wouldn't that like be too much right here what about you gotta have something well what about the infinity gauntlet i have a big sculpture i want to put it back there but then you can't see it so i actually have a light of a light shut yes you're illuminating your floor really well well it creates a halo oh halo all right we got pinball news to talk about don't we okay all right yes yes yes okay so we'll just dive straight into um yeah we'll just drive we'll dive straight into it straight into we haven't been meandering after 15 minutes we're We're going to dive right into it.
    11:08
    Bond 60th. We actually had the official Bond 60th stream. Jack Danger did that on Deadflip. You can see it on YouTube or on his Twitch. And what was really cool was he had Keith Owen. He had Mark. I don't know his last name. Spaccio or something. Zuckerberg? No, not Zuckerberg. It was Mark whatever. I'm sorry, Mark, if you happen to be listening. Highly doubt it. But if you are, I'm very sorry that I forgot your last name. But the guy who programmed the game was on there. And then George Gomez, George Gomez showed up and streamed with him as well. So I will tell you, it was a very entertaining stream. There was some beer involved. It was just cool to see everybody have a good time. All hell breaks loose when somebody starts drinking beer. Isn't it Pinacho? That's the name, right? Yes. Yeah. There we go. Yes. Did he do fishtails? He did. He did a lot of games. He hadn't done a game in like 20 plus years. yeah there you go I did enjoy the beer though during the game play well it was cool to see like Keith Elwin had mentioned that you can backhand the inline drop targets on the right and Gomez was trapped up and Keith is like George you can backhand it just real quick and just like to see Keith like coaching and then George hit it and then to see Keith like the proud parent like yeah did you see what happened though Did you see what happened with that? What? Why he got so excited? Because I even told Keith, I was like, I think this is the most excited. Like you've won world championships. You've done all that. I've never seen you this excited. Yeah, yeah. So what happened was Gomez hit the first in line and then it just kept going and hit the next one. Oh. So it's like you could like double up on that. Like a double hit. Right, which was actually pretty dope. You don't see that too often. And just seeing that actually happen, I guess just the way that, I don't know if it was intended. it. I'm sure Elwin will tell somebody whether or not it was, but just the way that I guess the poster at and the way it was hit, it just had just the perfect inertia or the momentum just to, yeah, go through. And then that's when you saw Elwin like raise his hands up in the air. And I was like, he was pumped. I was like, his arms do not go above his shoulders. That's impossible. So yeah, you're right. He was pumped. And it was, I will just say, um, I will say my overall takeaway is it just seemed like it was a fun social vibe that I got from that pin and I think the goal of the pin is just short ball times and it'd be you know this is a game that you want to play with other people you want to do it collectively um there's co-op built in into the game but like it's shipping it's shipping with version 1.03 like it's a it's it's a done game it's pretty much finished he did say on the on during the stream that there will be more voice call outs added to the game but like code wise depth wise asset why everything like it's a complete game and it's ready to go but it's shipped with co-op and it's just very it gives off a very social fun let's play this together vibe compared to most modern pins where i remember keith owen during the um during the godzilla stream like he stepped up and just like blew up the game, you know, and it's when you're watching somebody on a reveal stream play a game for 45 minutes, you know, just like blowing up the game. I mean, that's cool to see that there's that type of depth. But that wasn't the goal of this pin. The goal of this pin is it's brutal. It's going to keep your ball time short, regardless of who you are as a player. And, you know, try to try to do your best, try to conquer it together as a group and in co-op. So, so, Tom, I know, I think you are considering getting one of these pins so i'm assuming you were looking at it with somewhat of a critical eye what were your main takeaways or thoughts watching the stream uh i liked it but okay yeah so that's it uh thanks everybody for joining what did you see yeah what was it that you yeah what stood out i just i just like how it's got a modern vibe but it's more of a throwback to older games yeah so and i i like the brutality of it um you know i i like the fact that i don't have to watch neil play it for 45 minutes before i get a chance to play uh there's some of that um i don't know i think i think it's cool i i the only thing i would i wish there was a like a little bit more video assets, I guess, you know, they, if they throw that into LCD, I think it'd be perfect. Um, but I, I, I want to try it. Yeah. Well, that's the video asset question came up and George did make a comment, which he basically said, he goes, well, you guys are lucky that you haven't had to deal with video assets because then you haven't been, you know, wrapped up with the licensor. And so that comment was kind of a, I, I don't think, I don't think video assets are happening. Yeah. I, I, I would imagine that's probably the biggest problem with the cornerstone bond game, you know, and getting stuff done with that. Um, I mean, but you know, I, I can, I can live without it, I guess. Sure. And I, and I think just quick side note on the cornerstone game, They did do a big update, a big code update recently where now they allowed mode stacking.
    16:45
    And so I know I had voiced before and I'd heard this before that the bond licensor is super particular where they want to keep everything movie specific. So if you start a mode that's in one movie, they don't want to see video clips of another movie like intermingling. They wanted to keep everything separate. So I remember when they said that on the cornerstone, it was like, well, how in the world are they going to do that on the 60th if there's all these different movies involved? And what we've come to find out is the way they're doing it on the cornerstone is if you start, let's say you start a cue mode and then you start a multiball. Well, it prioritizes the multiball. So it's showing all the video assets of the multiball. But now you just have a little logo in the bottom showing that you still have the cue mode running with like a tally bar on the shots for those. So it's no longer going to show any audio or video from the cue mode. So they are having to make very bold, creative decisions on what prioritizes what because they can't have things intermix. And so I don't fault them for just avoiding it entirely.
    17:52
    I'd like to talk now, Joel. Yes, go for it. Yes. You know, it'd be nice if they did something like Batman 66. which is where you could actually press the lockdown bar button and it would flip between the actual modes. So you could see the video assets for that as well as the shots. That's a really. So first off, bold strategy on the air horn. That works incredibly well. Travis has been doing the hand for a long time, but the air horn may be more effective. but I did not know that and that's actually a really good that's not an air horn you idiot just blow just you use the dust you just blow your mic and blow everybody's eardrums out to get my attention gee you're an idiot no that's actually I did not realize that Tom and you know what that's actually a really good idea future of Batman 66, I think. And to incorporate that into the bond software probably won't happen, but it would be a, it's a nice thought. I like it though. But I remember that action button is still being reserved for your multiplier. So you'd have to find a way to, I think the action button, that's the whole point of the action button is to enable your, so they'd have to find a way. But I like, if Raymond Davidson and Tim Sexton can make a button do multiple things, things somebody else can maybe maybe but no good point good point but i don't know travis you've been quiet this is weird i just been listening and tom's air horn broke me i wasn't expecting last time it was like the zipper or duck call thing going on from the topper no it wasn't the topper it was my my games update oh yeah they were updating um so yeah bond 60 i I guess we're doing impressions still of it or seeing the gameplay or whatever, or just thoughts. What do you, what else do you think we're doing? I mean, Tom, I said Tom broke me. I still got tears in my eyes. Okay. So anyways, like I personally, I'm excited for the game. The theme is what it is. I'm not a Bond fan. I've only seen one. My wife wants to watch the Daniel Craig Bond. So I'm like, we'll get around to it eventually. but I am very excited about this layout because I've talked about this now for a couple of years now that I really wish that manufacturers would put out old school type fill filling pens, you know, to where it's just single level, use the modern flippers, give it a different fill. And that's why I really enjoyed Beatles because it was just that. So seeing this, I'm just really excited about it because one, it has a shot that I really do like and the figure eight shot. And we've talked about that before that even like because when the three of us talked about homebrews and stuff like that, something that'd be fun. That type of shot came up just going down the left side. So seeing that in an actual pen right now, for me, that's exciting because I just I love the idea of the shot. And the fact that there's two spinners on it, too, I mean, that's pretty dope because you can go from either the left side, like on the bottom, or you could just go up on the top. And then I love the inline drops. Like, I love those on TNA. And the fact that they're here now on a stern, I'm excited about that. Like, those two things I really do like. And then I guess we got the saw. I assume that this is a shot that Gomez was talking about that he hadn't seen before, where you can hit the spinner up the middle and then it comes back down the right side to the right flipper. And then you just kind of like one time. The figure eight was the shot that Gomez was referring to. But the figure eight's been done before. Yeah, but I just I don't think he knew that. That was the game. I mean, I mean, everybody like. But even sure, because even the shot when even Owen made a comment that he had forgotten about the Diamond Lady. So when the game came out and people were like, oh the figure eight looks like Diamond Lady even Owen himself was like oh you right I totally forgot about that game See I assume the shot that I never seen before personally is the shot that right at the middle Then you one-time it into a figure eight. And then it comes back down. And then in theory, you could just one-time it again into the inline drops.
    22:17
    I mean, there's a lot of different flowing shots there. I mean, I'm also curious about the hat disc thing. I mean, we talked about this before. I'm not really a fan of disc in general there, but something about this one just seemed different compared to Avengers. And I don't know if the mech itself is very different. And I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe somebody out there or maybe you guys know. They talked about it. OK, they did. So what what is different about it? Because visually it just if it seemed different watching it in play, they reengineered the whole thing. And apparently it is counterbalanced in a way. It has some sort of bearing in it where it will it'll settle itself down in the same position every time. And so the idea there is if you had two posts like a theater of magic or that it's too much that that left post would have then interfered with your middle shot. So they wanted to make sure it's only one post and it always settles down on the right side so that you still it's it doesn't block your shots anywhere on the left. So it's OK. Where it settles is a is a safe spot to not interfere with other shots. But yet it always settles in a good position that you can rip it. That's what I was wondering, because it didn't seem like there was much drift on it. Like you would see with other pens like on Avengers. One of the things that you can do is just machine gun your flippers to set the disc in a certain spot that you want. There you go. Hint, hint for competitive players there if you want to do something like that. But it didn't seem like you could do something like that with this pen, at least not on the stream that we watched. No, apparently that's where they said that on stream that they're like, oh, yeah, people are like, oh, it's just the Avengers disc. As in they thought they reuse the Mac and they're like, if you only knew the amount of time and hours we invested in that Mac to make it spin the way it does and then settle itself back the way it does. It is a completely new Mac. So I yeah, I think it's a cool Mac. I it is. It was interesting. It's not surprising. but like so many people on Facebook, not so many, but like to see so many people on Facebook or pin side afterwards, be like, this is a joke. You know, this is not $20,000 worth of a game. There's no assets. There's no this, there's no that. Is this what Stern's doing? Blah, blah, blah. And I get it. And it's weird reading all these comments of, they just feel like apparently we as podcasters, we're just fan boys and cheerleaders. We only talk about the positive things and just build up all these companies. Like we need to be real, you know, I, to me, I'm sorry, but I just, I have a realistic expectation of what this pin is. This pin was made specifically for the licensor because apparently the licensor, this is what the licensor requested first. They wanted an older pin. So it's almost like Stern had to talk them into allowing them to do the cornerstone. So this was always what they wanted. They wanted an older pin and bond collectors are a different breed. There is a ton of money in the bond collecting world. And so this pin was designed for them. And we as pinball people are just lucky to try to kind of be a part of it. And I think it's – I mean, I get it. It's super expensive. But they made the pin that the licensor wanted. And I feel bad for the pinball fans that wish this was super accessible and they would be on location everywhere. And you could buy them for $8,000. Great. But that's not, from a business standpoint, that wasn't what was asked. That's not what they built. And so they built what the licensure requested. So I don't know. If we could just accept that, great. Let's move forward and actually look at what it is. It looks like it's a really fun pin. Would you rather have a $20,000 pin that looks really fun? Or would you rather have another Supreme that's $20,000 plus that just looks boring, as all get out. Well, and plus too, let's just get out the common misconception here. It's everybody labels it a $20,000 pin because that's what Stern sold it at. Yeah. The pin can be sold for whatever anybody wants to sell it. So just because you, you know what I mean? Somebody can sell it for 50,000. They wanted to. Somebody could sell it for a dollar. You know, I mean, there's just, they could sell it for whatever they want to. Well, apparently Neil McCrae bought all of them. Yeah. All of them in Europe. So you need to reach out to Neil and Neil can sell them for whatever he wants. But here's my thing. It's like, at the end of the day, why does the price matter for one particular pen that's in this industry? Because there's many different options. And the reality is that we very much, and I'll say this as somebody that works for a dealer, we all are very much experiencing a first world problem right now, right? To where there's people that will readily buy a $10,000, $12,000 LE. There's people that will buy a $7,000 pro. And then all of a sudden, this pen's too much. Okay. Well, you know, the vast majority of people that play pinball in location, $7,000 is too much for them. You know, and we hear that all the time. So there's just different levels to it. And the simple thing is, is that if you have the money and you want to play this pen, you want it, then get it and enjoy it. If you don't, then it's like, I'm sorry. Like there's lots of stuff I would like to get. You know, I would like to have a $10 million house, but I can't do that. You know what I mean? So there's just different levels to it. And I mean, and I've seen people just posting up, oh, this is a cash grab. This is this, this is that. And I just want to say, of course it is. Like what, what manufacturer out there is trying to not turn a profit and pay their employees. They have so much overhead. Like how else do you guys think that this game gets out from any manufacturer, right? Any game that gets out from any manufacturer, they have to pay for the license. They have to pay for raw materials. They have to pay for people's time to actually concept the game, engineer the game, to come up with software, to come up with design. Then they got to pay people to actually like, I don't know, build the game, you know? And I mean, there's just so much that goes into running a business that I think a lot of people forget about that. It's not just like five people coming up with these ideas and then just putting it all together in a garage and putting it out. I mean, there's just so much, so many things going at scale. And I mean, and the reality is too, is a lot of the times when I, you know, I've had people contact me about the price too. And these are the same people that have like five to eight cars in their garage, you know, just like I, like I was talking to you guys about, or they collect like a bunch of old bourbon and whiskey stuff where, okay, it's all right to have a $3,000 bottle of bourbon in your, you know what I mean? But all of a sudden, 15, 20, 25 grand, it's too far. So what I'm saying is, is we all have our different hobbies, right? That all intermingle. We all have our different ways that we like to spend our money. And hey, it's okay. Like you can still be mad about the price. That's perfectly fine. That's perfectly valid. But at the same time, it's like, it is what it is. Like, this is just simply a business. And luckily, this will not be the only game that Stern puts out all year long. It just won't be. And this won't be the only pinball game available from anybody in the industry. Yeah. And I get that. And that's, I think it's just Keith Elwin makes such an amazing game and the game looks really fun. I think everybody sees that. I think the game looks really fun. And so everybody just wishes they could play it or have it. And unfortunately it's going to be, this is going to be a, one of those games, it's going to be harder to come around or come, come across or have the ability to play. I know if I have a chance to borrow one to stream it for flipping out, I know multiple people that like want to come over. It's just like, Oh, you're going to have one for a few weeks. Like, please let me come. Like they want, they want their chance to get their hands on it. And, um, I don't, and I think that's awesome. I, I, I don't know. I just, Tom, you are, you are seriously thinking about getting one though. I mean, so it's, what is it in your collection what is it you know why what's the thought behind having one i just want to play something different yeah so yeah so basically two games are leaving one's coming in so now i have a little room oh there you go you got room for all your friends because you can play co-op and just you know get your butt kicked together it'll be great i don't have any friends you got us tom I would personally, I would want to get the pin personally if it was the right theme. If this was a theme that I really enjoyed, I probably wouldn't have a problem taking my funds, my budget for pinball, and making room for it. I wouldn't have a problem with that. So selling multiple games just for this one. Well, and again, because in my opinion, I think it's going to hold its value after the fact. You know, it's just, yeah, there's ups and downs in the market. But when we look at all things considered, that it's a Bond 60th. Bond fans, they love Bond. There's a lot of people that discover pinball for the first time. And when they do, every, like we talked about this, every theme is brand new to them. Right? And then you got Elwin behind it, Elwin Design. So, you know, it's going to be fun either way. And so, I mean, those things into consideration. that's why I would really want the pen. And yeah, it's just for me, it's just the theme is the only thing that stops me from doing it. Like that's literally the only thing from looking for this pen and trying to find it just because I want a modern pen that is a single layout game that's fun to rip spinners, that's fun to do. I mean, yeah, again, we could talk about price all day long, but the prices, they're all over the place anyways. I mean, we see everything every day, like Bally Williams pens. You see those for over 10 grand now. MSRP on those were like 3,500, you know? So it's like, that's just the way it is. There's just ebbs and flows to it. And just like you mentioned, Joel, they're going to be out there at some point. Somebody will be able to play it. Like, I think I heard that there's one that's coming to TPF. I've heard that from a couple of people. And I think they even mentioned that on the dead flip stream as well. And I've heard of other places on location are going to have this pin here or on their location. So, I mean, I know it's going to be out in California. I think it's going to be somewhere in New York, somewhere in Pennsylvania, from what I've heard. So it's going to be out there. So if you want a chance to play it, like, I think people will be able to play this. I don't think it'll be as hard to find it that people think. Now, when it's at a show, you're going to be waiting in line for a little while. But, you know, you'll still have a chance to play it. That's why we go to shows anyways, right? Well, there'll be one at Tom's house, too. But I don't know. And there will be one at your house. Don't go to the hotel. Now we need two lines at your places. If you ring my doorbell, I want to answer.
    33:09
    I don't know. I will, just to wrap up the 60th conversation then, I mean, once we actually get some hands-on experience, we'll probably dive a little deeper into it. But I would just say my takeaway coming away from the stream, the game looks fun. The game looks fun.
    33:27
    I think it shoots really well. There was no doubt. But, like, actually seeing people play it, it's not like the shots only look good. during the promo video or only look good because Keith Elwin can hit the shots. Like all four people were hitting shots and made it look really enjoyable. And to see them kind of attack it in different ways, you know, they did an entire co-op game where they were just trying to get through all the villain modes. Then they did an entire another co-op game where they were just trying to get through all the gadgets. And like having a simplistic layout but actually have complexity to the rules is really exciting. And from the scoring standpoint, I'm assuming you guys were salivating over tournament strats and whatnot because, you know, you go through an in lane and the opposite spinners lit for super spinner and all the points are in bonus. So you better not tilt. And just this has some. It says, oh, that actually brings up a really good point. There was a shush. There was a shush during the stream. And we can make one real quick comment about that. But yes, Jack Danger pointed out something that Keith Owen does in his designs. And basically what he pointed out was – So we're just going to re-point it out. Well, I don't – everybody's seen it. But I think it's a really good – I had not thought about it. And all we'll say is Keith does some stuff with his slings. He moves his slings back. And that's all we're going to say about it. Yeah, which is – but I like – and there goes Travis. I'm happy. I'm happy to not be part of this combo. No, I just I had not thought about I had not thought about that. And I just he you haven't actually looked at your Godzilla. No, I had. But I didn't. I didn't. I didn't realize why. Why that matters. Like why moving the slings out matters. And that's what Keith actually mentioned is he said, when you move the slings out, you have way more control with the flippers. I had not put that together. I thought it was like, well, maybe he doesn't want. you to be able to post pass easily. Maybe it's a, maybe it's a challenge. Well, you did not put it together. Yes. This makes it easier for you to handle the ball in a flipper. We are different people. Our skill levels are very different. Oh, that reminds me. I don't want to interrupt too much Joel, but we do need to plug a flips YouTube video of your absolute clinic on Deadpool and flipper skills. So that was quite a while ago. If you haven't seen it, go to Abe flips. He's a great content creator he just happened to use some of my content to make a very educational video which i endorse because it was hilarious but yeah no that i just that's something and i get it that if that's keith's thing you know we don't want to see all other designers start to do that but it's just i had not put two and two together what's the advantage of moving the slings that way he's saying you get way more flipper control sure you lose the ability to post transfer but you get way like it seems to make sense now why Godzilla I seem to be way more in control than other games I don't I thought that was really interesting keep in mind too one of the other design aspects of it as well that if you do something that doesn't allow for I guess those passing or anything like that then you have to be able to find a way to get the ball back to the flipper so that's where the flow of shots come okay like a return shot from either a spinner that will come back down an orbit to a catch or maybe another ramp or something like that. So that's all things to consider as well, because it just it all meshes together really well. Sure. And that's really the for me personally, just playing Elwynn pins. That's the secret sauce to it right there that it gives you a reason. You have a reason to hit every shot in the game. Right. And then you're able to basically be under control for as much as possible. And for some people, that does lead to a longer ball times and then others. others it might not.
    37:15
    We have people that contact us all the time about Godzilla that they actually think that the game's too hard for them, and it's on default settings. So there's still a lot of casuals out there. It's just the same way I told you guys about the Rush casual that I heard from that's played thousands of games and hasn't broken $750 million yet. So, you know, that's the way it is. Not everybody can be a world-class player like Joel, just crushing games all the time. I think people have fun in their different ways, which is awesome about it. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I thought that was really interesting. But the last thing, what I was going to say about Bond 60th is my brother and my brother-in-law and I, we actually went out to Tapper's. It's an arcade bar downtown Indy, and they have like 20 plus pins. And we played pinball for like two hours. All the modern stuff. They have the CGC games. That was the main reason I went, because I wanted to put more time on Medieval Madness and Monster Bash and Attack from Mars just to like compare them to Cactus Canyon. but we played for like two plus hours came home it was late and i was surprised but they're like hey you want to go you want to go play some more pinball and so we actually came down here and started playing some of the games and my brother-in-law goes man i miss tna and i will tell you like after playing all these modern games for two plus hours i agreed like having tna single level brutal simplistic game that we could conquer together like that was the change of pace that at that point we wanted and unfortunately we had i don't have it right now because i traded it and that's that reiterated like even in my small collection of four games having something like this a single level game so it may not be bond 60th but tna is a good example um beatles is a good example or just an older game, whether it is an EM or just, you know, an eight ball deluxe or something like that, a fathom, like having an older game like that in your collection to just kind of change it up is, is really enjoyable. And that's, that's what I saw. I saw that, that experience in the bond 60th stream, that that is clearly a pin that can just, you can, yeah, it's a good change of pace. It's a fun change of pace. So Tom, in your collection, I think it'll be fantastic. I think it'll fit in real nice. Thanks, Joel.
    39:36
    Well, this is a subtle transition, but we want to talk about some of the other manufacturers and some of the rumored titles because because we Texas Pinball Festival is going to be crazy. And the reason I'm saying this is a subtle transition. We'll just dive straight in. But single level fun, right? Single level games. There is a rumor. So CGC, the rumor is that Pulp Fiction is going to be shown at Texas Pinball Festival. And the rumor is that Pulp Fiction is a single level game. So why all of a sudden is there this big change to ditch ramps? And I think it comes back to like it's a change of pace. It's a change. It is something modern. You get the screen. You get the lights. You get all the modern goodness, but yet a simplicity or a feel of a retro game to kind of break up the current status of games. I don't know. Thoughts on? Or it could be license. What do you mean? Driven. The Licenser once single level. Yeah, that was the thing, right? That's a good possibility. I don't know.
    40:49
    But even still, I kind of like, I don't know, I'm all for it. Now, if this was your dream theme, right, and you are a modern collector, you may want your dream, oh, your Rush game. Well, okay, what about that, Tom? If Rush would have come out and Rush was a single level game, let's say the code was still incredibly great. If there were two flippers and a pop bumper, I would have bought it, Joel.
    41:17
    But so it would not – if you would have seen that Rush was a single-level game, would you have been disappointed at all? Like would it have affected your thought of the game? So you would have thought less. But I think it just comes down to what's the layout like, what's the code, you know, all these factors. Is there Rush music actually in the freaking game? I mean, would you have gotten a bag of tell rush?
    41:45
    Maybe if it just had one song in it. I definitely have room for that. Hang it on the wall. So. So, Travis, if if Avengers would have come out and it was a single level game, would that have excited you, bummed you out? What would I mean? I mean, it depends what the design is. Yeah. I enjoy all pinball. I have probably, I think, like eight or nine EMs in my collection, and I have a bunch of solid states as well. So I try to have a balance, just what you were talking about a second ago. That way it's not just all moderns all the time. I mean, going for wizard modes or trying to play for an hour is fun at times, but then sometimes I just want to, you know, do something else, like just work on ripping a spinner or something like that. So that's where Globetrotters or, you know, playing like a spinner based game is a lot of fun, like Hocus Pocus or something like that. So, you know, if it was on a single level game, depending on what the design is, I'd probably still be interested in it just because I and Tom can attest to this. If you play enough competitive pinball, you've seen all kinds of different designs, all kinds of different themes, all kinds of different ways to approach a pin. And oftentimes when you look at some of these old school games, like let's take Dolly Parton, for instance, right? You don't have any modes, really. You know what the theme is, but it's not like that there's theme assets on anything that you're doing beyond hitting a target that might have a letter that goes to it. You know, so stuff like that. We're used to it enough to where I can't speak for Tom, but I can speak for myself that that part doesn't bother me as much. that if the layout's fun and there's some type of integration that way to where at least the artwork is cool or something like that, then yeah, I can accept that. Now, obviously, if I'm looking at like a Deadpool or Godzilla like behind you, it is pretty sweet that there's modes attached to it. And then there's some depth to it to where you can attack it in different ways and play for a long time as well. So, I mean, it's just ebb and flow. I think it just depends on what people prefer. but yeah, that'd be my preference. If I like the theme, like layout, I'll get it. Cause I love single level games. I wish, I wish people would do more, more modern single level games, stuff like that I just I enjoy them a lot Yeah And I think I think your getting answered I mean it was interesting on the Bond 60th stream to hear Keith because somebody was like what was it like designing a game without ramps And he was like, it was fun. Ramps are easy. And we've talked about this before. The amount of real estate that a ramp actually takes up is a decent bit because you have to get the ball vertically. Like it. So when you have a single level game, you really have to think through every little area of that in the flow that you're potentially going to have. And and yeah, you really think about Bond 60th and how many shots there are in that layout. Like even the captive ball, which is the hard shot kind of tucked away, like it's way back there. But it's just it's a whole nother kind of fun shot that's that's hidden in there. While if there was a ramp, one ramp would have covered that entire inline drop captive ball section, and instead we have multiple elements to the game. One of the really cool things I thought watching the stream was when they got into multi-ball and got the jackpot lit, and it was a timed jackpot. You only had like 20 or 30 seconds to hit it. you don't see that quite a bit nowadays with modern games. So I just thought that was really neat. Yeah. And what I think this pin, I mean, sure, the biggest barrier is going to be, can you play one? Can you find one to play one? But once people, I think, have the opportunity to play it, I think this is such an ode, you know, a love letter to some of these older games and the way even the scoring is based. I think this is really going to draw people into some of those older games and just the appeal to a score-driven game. Oh, Travis is holding his hand up.
    45:58
    Are we talking about Pulp Fiction or Bond 60 now? Sorry, we derailed this whole time. We had that, and then Tom talked about it. I'm saying that we were talking about Bond 60, and I just started thinking. I'm swerving. It's not your fault, Bob. You're an angel. I'm driving the bus. I'm not driving it. It's not straight. I'm swerving, but just stay with me. Somehow we took a U-turn. I must have been looking down because now I'm looking up. We're still talking about single-level games. So we've talked about – what do we know about Pulp Fiction? We don't know anything. We don't know anything about it. I'll say this about single-level games. It's a movie by Quentin Tarantino. Yes. Okay. It's a fun movie. So I'll say this about single-level games. the thing that I'm most excited about seeing some of these modern manufacturers tackle single level games whether it was spooky whether apparently it's going to be CGC or whoever else is involved and seeing Stern do it I like the idea of modern mechs being on this game and modern rule sets being on the game as well to where you can have a little bit more to it besides just hitting just a drop target and scoring points But I like the idea of having just different designs that people aren't used to. Right now, I guarantee the vast majority of people that buy modern pinball machines, they probably never even played a split flipper game where you have two flippers on the same side, like a Harlem Globe Trotters or a Paragon or something like that. So, I mean, I would very much I wish this was possible. I don't know if it is from a monetary standpoint, but I wish it was possible to do this. what's the word, like more dynamic designs or more eclectic designs or just something that's just so far different from what we're seeing now. And I think you can do that with a single level game. We see it a lot with EMs, with either waterfalls or like a jumping jack to where there's no in lanes, but there's an out lane with pop bumpers, like right there at the flippers where you got to fight it back and forth. I mean, there's different things I think could be done. So I'd be excited to see more manufacturers tackle something like that. And even if it's not, you know, it doesn't have to have a ton of assets to it. Just slap a theme on it that people like. You know, it could be a C-level theme. And I think something like that could possibly work. Yeah. And don't forget Rick and Morty. Rick and Morty obviously had that pop bumper down near the flippers. Right. But it had ramps, though, and all that. Yeah. You have Rick and Morty still, Tom? Mm-hmm. It's right next to me. Yeah. You just can't see it. I don't mean this is a bad question, but why do you still have it? Why has it remained in your collection? Wow. I don't mean it like an insult to the game. Oh, my gosh. You have a very curated collection, so I'm curious. I like the game.
    48:49
    Okay. All right. Is that, I mean. That's good. I like the game and I like the theme. You need to tell us more, Tom. Yeah. Why do you like the game? I'm not going to get into an in-depth discussion about it. I mean, this is a podcast. You need to move on. I was hoping you'd say, you know, like, oh, it's because of the unique layout that, you know, it's. It has a unique layout. It has a tough some a lot of tough shots on it. I will help us with the segue now. So since we were talking about digital games coming to TPF, that means that we do know for sure that Spooky is going to be bringing Scooby Doo. There we go. Thank you, Tom Graff. So I will like speed Keanu Reeves. I'm going to like get away from the will and Joel, you could take it back now. You know what I'm going to do is I'm going to slam on the brakes because Tom, I actually have one more. I have one more Rick and Morty question for you. You just killed us all. You can't go below 50 miles an hour. No, this is Joel. Did you guys see the mod that those guys made? Actually, I actually put in for one. No way. Okay. Did you see this, Travis? I did. Remember what I texted you guys as soon as I saw it? No, I don't. If I was Scott Denise, I'd be like, shit. Well, I don't necessarily like this. So as a owner, this is – so what we're mentioning, there is a guy, and I think he said he's only going to make like 30 of them, but maybe if his demand is huge. But what the guy did is currently there's that weird – there's not weird, but it's the left ramp. 90-degree shot. Yes. But you have three stand-up targets. It's Jerry and the mom and the girl. I'm sorry. I don't know. But basically that main section, that plastic, this guy is making this kind of tunnel ramp that goes. It's hidden directly under that plastic. And you lose the Jerry stand-up. And so the Jerry stand-up now becomes that shot. So it adds a switch in there. So you still get quality for that. But it allows you to hit the portal shot really easily or easier. You can hit that shot from the bottom right flipper instead of having to hit it with the upper right flipper. So it is a large I mean, it is a drastic geometry change to the game. But yet it's very well done and hidden. Like you won't even know really that it's there. So, Tom, what was it? I mean, you own the game. Why? You said you're putting in for one. What was it that you were like? Yes, I'm in on that. I just want to try the mod. Oh, just to see how. Yeah, just to see how it works versus what I have. I mean, I can make that shot. It's just, it's tough.
    51:29
    But yeah, I want to see if it's easier and if it improves on the gameplay. Interesting. I mean, yes, as a designer, I know Kevin and Nick on Buffalo Pinball, they just actually had this entire conversation. but they were talking about Black Knight Sword of Rage and the sword mod that people have done so that instead of the Vuk feeding the right flipper, it's a Vuk that feeds this sword ramp to feed the left flipper. And there are people that swear that that really drastically changes the game because now it's not so much a right heavy flipper game. And it does bring up a question, it's your game, do what you want to it. But I also understand we kind of want to respect, obviously, like what's the designer's intentions? You know, what do they what do you what what was the designer wanting you to do? And I mean, we could go down a whole nother rabbit trail of, well, when you change rubbers or change flippers or change this or change that, are you now outside the designer's intentions for the game? Matt, imagine taking a source or moving the entire lock mechanism on it. Is that a thing? Who did that? It used to be the Sharp Brothers. Who do you think did it, Joel? Our overlord, Josh Sharp, did it. That's crazy. But I don't know. So, okay. So interesting.
    52:49
    If you get one, Tom, I'm very curious to hear how that mech works. I will talk about it on the podcast if you let me have a couple minutes. I will gladly ask. So now I'm going to let Travis floor the room. We're catching right back up to speed. That was a fantastic transition. I don't even remember. Oh, spooky. So spooky. I didn't know which on-ramp he tried to offer. Apparently we're in the sequel. The company who hate Joel. I do not hate Spooky. We're in that shitty-ass sequel with the cruise ship right now. That's what we are. Keanu Reeves isn't in this movie anymore. Okay, Scooby-Doo. Yes, there will absolutely be Scooby-Doo at TPF. There are already Scooby-Doos on location. They're on location. Unfortunately, some of the initial feedback I got was almost everyone has had some sort of malfunction mechanically, but they've all been small. They've been small things that all the operators have been able to fix, get the games back up and running. The initial reviews that I've read are people are really impressed with it. They like the way it shoots. They really like the bookcase flipper. They think that's unique, and they like the depth of the code that's already there and experiencing the modes. I've read different things on some people think the game plays a lot harder than the initial stream showed. You know, they're actually draining the ball while other people are saying, no, the ball teams seem to be medium to long. So I don't know. I know, Tom, there's a few in your state, but yet you're like snowed in by eight feet. So I'm assuming you haven't had a chance to play one yet. No. Okay. Travis, you haven't.
    54:26
    Yeah, you haven't played one either. No. But I know a few people that have. I mean, so the feedback I've gotten is that it's it. They didn't call it a long player, but they said it wasn't really a difficult game either. Even without lane posts like all the way up or wherever. So, I mean, because that's what we found out afterwards that apparently during, I guess, the reveal stream that they had everything set up super easy or whatever. I guess just to show stuff. But that's what somebody had told me before. So I guess in general, people are liking what they're seeing so far is the feedback that I'm getting that just based on, I guess, comparing it to other pins that have come out. I mean, I've heard from people that played played all the other spookies that they like it a lot more than Ultraman Halloween. I mean, take that for what it is. But then I've heard people say that they like it better than Rick and Morty and that they like it better than Alice Cooper. So those are the two games that have done fairly well for spooky also. So, I mean, you know, I really like the theme. I'm looking forward to playing it. So it looks interesting to me. I am excited to be able to play it. Yeah, I agree. And I don't know. I don't know what's coming. Zach is going to bring me either Bond 60th or Scooby-Doo. That's the next game I'm going to stream. So I'll have hands on one of them. But I'm excited. Those are both games that I'm very much excited to flip. They look unique. Obviously, we already talked about 60th. I have two friends that have gotten one, and they really enjoy it. Their families really enjoy it. They don't play a lot of pinball. So that's a good sign. Oh, no. Just check that friends and family box for Joel. Sorry, Keith. No Bond 60 coming in now. I already have. I already, yes. You already have your Cactus Canyon. I'm already wrestling with this. You see Joel's mic just vibrating now? He got so excited there. Jeez. No. Calm down, Joel. I'm struggling, man. It's this constant curating of your collection and tweaking it and trying to get whatever you feel will be the most optimal. Is it because you can actually hit the shots on Cactus Canyon that you like it so much? I don't. No, that's what's funny, though, is everybody says it's an easy game. Everybody says it's an easy game. All right. Wait, wait, wait. Before you go on, have you beat the game? I have.
    56:42
    I have beat the game. And we're still debating whether or not it's an easy game or not. Oh, you're right. You are. it's okay i have beat the game it it's fine fine i i don't even know how to argue it you know i know when it comes to the list of games that i've beaten you still beat the game i mean that's still awesome but we just need your opinion was it was it difficult yeah i think it's it i do think it's difficult there are there are days okay how many other games have you beat how many other games have you beat we've had this conversation the only games that i have this conversation now it's difficult to not dream what does technically beat me what does that mean you took the glass off you hit all the switches like toy story i got to the wizard mode but to beat the game you got to go through it a whole nother time like you did so you didn't beat the game there right so i didn't beat the game no that's like technically that's like me saying i technically had sex with my wife but i was on the other side of the house with all my clothes on just like watching tv and i happen to like go past cinemax at 11 o'clock like you gotta finish joel you can't say technically what are we talking about what are you like you're the one saying i technically beat the game and then you're like oh well i finished the first half but i didn't do the last half okay fine fine fine but no no i am i am genuinely happy for you yes that you did beat the game because that is exciting when you finish beating a game and i will admit tom's comment after you told us he beat the game completely broke me but and we're still talking about it that's what that was the comment no no i mean we're supposed to i think we're supposed to be on tpf no about something but we we told but i like this game i did want to ask you though joel because i didn't follow up with this question and this is a legit question this isn't rip on Joel because I love Joel to death, except the times that I hate him. But still, you said that you went somewhere on location, right? And we're getting off of TPF. So we're already in speed two. We're just coming back. You're steering right now. That's not my fault. It's fine. We're at the bottom of the lake right now. Don't worry about it. Tom's just sitting in the back of the bus reading a book. Is there a car crash sound down there?
    58:58
    Tom wants to know this answer, though, too, because I'm genuinely curious because you've gone back and forth about what game you want to add to your collection yeah and you briefly mentioned that you went to on location to play all the other cgc games and then you didn't say anything else about that you came back and played more pinball so how did for you monster bash attack from mars and medieval medieval madness stack up to cactus canyon well the reason i didn't talk about it is because i know you guys aren't gonna like the answer um oh i will you're getting defensive no yeah i know you're not gonna like the answer because uh unfortunately the fourth the one i would put lowest on that list is attack from mars attack from mars and see exactly he doesn't like the answer i knew he wouldn't like the answer oh tom's leaving welcome listeners this is my solo podcast welcome this is uh just another pinball podcast episode whatever we're on let me share my feelings yep why isn't that why is that so i was playing with my brother i was playing with my brother-in-law first off i never realized how far back the shots are on attack from mars like all the shots are are very far back um and i don't mean that as an insult but like it just if i'm looking the the shots on godzilla or they are but maybe it's because there's some side shots and a side flipper. I don't know. I don't, it's just, it felt whatever. So anyways, Attack from Mars. Attack from Mars is a fantastic game. Don't get me wrong. But what is it in my mind? Why am I looking at a CGC game? I'm looking at a CGC game because of theme, light show, like a super fun, accessible game for friends and family, and then stuff in a, in the game for friends and family that like toys, mechs that they can get into, but then also keep me entertained. So what is it about Attack from Mars? I get it. The bouncing Martians, very cool. The spaceship, very cool. But if I'm going to just compare Bastoy to Bastoy, I do think the castle is much more entertaining than the spaceship. Personally. So what's number three then?
    61:07
    Third? Yeah. You don't like that. My third is Medieval Madness. Yes. Yeah, I know. Yeah. So right now, I am between Cactus Canyon and Monster Bash. And this is because I know – do I think I would absolutely beat Monster Bash? Yes. Have I beaten – have I officially, confirmly beaten Cactus Canyon? Yes. There's no question. I've beaten Cactus Canyon. Have you beat 50% of Monster Bash? You're the worst. Because apparently anytime you get 50% through a game, you technically beat it. No. Actually, I haven't. And the reason I was frustrated because the one at Tapper's, the Cliffy or whatever, was super bent on the Monster Bash scoop to the point where, I mean, I was just getting rejection after rejection after. I couldn't finish. Okay. I couldn't make it happen. That's what she said. I know. I'm trying to lay into Travis's weird analogies. But. Hey, you know what? The fact is you've created a new T-shirt. So I appreciate it. Like Joel Wizard mode is when you get 50% through the game. 50% of the game, wizard mode.
    62:21
    Joel's done. What happened to Joel Division? Joel Division is, shout out to Ray Day, Joel Division is very, it's clever. That's very good. So you say email at triple, what the hell is our email, Joel? JoelDrain at gmail.com. So wait, have you gotten to reactor five? I've gotten to reactor six. So I beat the game. You beat the game. That's awesome. God, you're the worst. said this i'm not i'm not making shit story is a copy paste for the second half of the game so in my mind beat the game is like i i feel like maybe beat is the wrong word i feel like i'm gonna give you all uh credit oh i don't this is not gonna be genuine but go ahead tom No, you beat the game. Thank you. Yeah. So why am I – Monster Bash, once again, I'm looking at this game, and I'm very much considering friends and family. Monster Bash, I love the theme. My kids love monsters. They would love the theme. And you can't tell me – like the toys in Monster Bash are fantastic. There are so many different really cool toys. So if I'm going to lay into that, that to me, I just feel like I definitely see the chopping wood aspect of Medieval Madness. And I know as a depth of code, I do agree that the code depth is the best in Attack from Mars. But if I'm going to curate my collection, right, like I already have a game that has amazing code depth. I've got Godzilla that I'm going to be able to chip away at forever. So I am between Cactus Canyon and Attack from Mars right now. and I'm really enjoying Cactus Canyon. I enjoy the code and knowing that if the 2.0 code ever comes out and the code is only going to get better, that's where I'm between. If I was going to buy a game solely on toys, I would buy Monster Bash. Okay. So that's what you're meaning though. You're between Cactus Canyon and Monster Bash, not Attack from Mars. Correct. Yes. Between Cactus Canyon. Attack from Mars is burnt. He took it to the bin. I will give it to Joel. I will give it to Joel, okay, that out of all the remakes, I personally do not like the Attack from Mars remake fill or the Medieval Madness fill. I much prefer the Monster Bash and Cactus Canyon fill. I 100% agree with that. So, calm down, Joel. I'm calm. I just, you know, somebody, two people get off off their chair because they don't want to listen to my opinion. But yet at the end of the day, they agree with me. What? I don't know. I just, and he's gone.
    65:05
    The timing of his camera going off. I really need, I need a listener to tell me how to keep this camera on. You're an idiot. Everybody, you know how to keep the camera on. Anyways, I just, that's where I'm at. And what surprised me is I can't find a Monster Bash. That's the problem is like in this area, I don't want to ship one. I want to be able to get pick one. But it's like I've reached out to my local arcade group. I've reached out to the Indiana Pinside page. Nobody has one. Nobody has one for sale. So it's like I can't even be tempted right now to buy a Monster Bash. Where I'm stuck is, well, if I can't buy a Monster Bash, then it looks like I'm going to go with Cactus Canyon. But even there's a big question mark because CGC is so behind on building all their stuff. And if there's rumored that CGC is going to be revealing a new game, like, are they even going to make SE pluses? Like, if that's what I was going to buy, do I even have the like if I placed an order with a distributor right now, am I ever going to get that game? I don't know. I don't I don't. There a big question mark right now with CGC and their production and timelines timelines And I don know but I been reading a lot of the Cactus Canyon pin side thread and seeing all the owners and how many people are still waiting on their LEs and still waiting on stuff I just I'm in. I want to get a game. But yeah. So any listener that happens to be in this area of Indiana or surrounding states has a Monster Bash. Let me know. But otherwise, everybody's Dime Mountain Dew. Imagine this is a Diamond and Dew, but it's a Diet Coke. Shocker. All right. We've talked about CGC. We've talked about Spooky. We've talked about Stern. Can I ask one question, Joel? Yes. Unrelated to TPF and everything. Why is your Jurassic Park off, but your other three games are on? Well, first off, you are seeing a different camera than the viewers.
    67:01
    And I have Jurassic. So Jurassic Park is not in the shot, but the reason Jurassic Park is off is because it's my buddy Ryan's, and he doesn't have the Pin Monk silent fan mod in it, so I hear a humming when I leave it on during the podcast. So I turn it off. I see. There you go. There's behind the curtain. Two cameras. Man.
    67:19
    Okay. So buy your fans at Pin Monk. Dude, Victor's the man. Yeah. You got to have it in Stern's. Okay. So Stern. We can talk about Stern. their their cornerstone supposed to be march so is stern going to reveal something before tpf they don't typically do that um normally it's like the week after tpf and then they have it at what mgc so who's who's up for design well george gomez had said that it is very clear the next two the two designers this year will be jack danger and brian eddie so which one it will be i don't know i don't know flip a coin everybody and then the rumored titles once again are venom and foo fighters don't know what i will say is there was a lot of foo fighter comments made during the bond 60th stream they kept saying foobar you know what's that what's jack's next name foobar foobar is a war term and it's a i don't know the whole thing do you know where Fubar's from?
    68:23
    What is it? I know I've always remembered hearing Fubar from what? Do you know, Travis? It's from a movie. Yeah, a movie. Was it Saving Private Ryan or was it from? Oh, my God. It's a war movie. It's not a war movie. Or is it Band of Brothers? Band of Brothers. No.
    68:38
    What's it from? Tango and Cash. Okay, I haven't seen that movie and I've absolutely seen and heard the word Fubar from a movie. Oh, he's leaving again. Tom's gone. It's effed up. What is it? Beyond. All recognition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm all over it. It has nothing to do with Foo Fighters. Well, no. I think they kept saying it as a joke because it's Foo Bar. Foo Fighters. No, that's not what Eric said. I'm just telling you. Just wait. But he said that and then he kept saying there was another thing that it said, fool me once, blah, blah, blah. Fool me twice. like George Gomez kept saying the word foo over and over again. Maybe it's Def Leppard. They got that song, Foolin'. You ever think about that, Joel? Yeah, I did think about that. I was just going with surface level. He kept saying the word foo, so I kept thinking foo fighters. But maybe I'm the idiot. So I don't know. I don't know what's coming. It's been debated.
    69:45
    All right, so we don't know. We don't know. Hopefully Stern announces something soon. Well, we know they're going to show something in March. but whether or not it'll be soon before TPF. I just feel like that there's a big collision that's coming at TPF at the likes that we've never seen before, because we still got one more company or we got two more companies. Actually, we got two more companies to talk about that are teasing things. So, I mean, we already know spooky is coming with Scooby-Doo and then potentially. Oh, wait, sorry. What? Probably have a queen. Oh, queen. Yeah. Queen will probably be there. Actually, J.D.L. is supposed to live stream them today. Queen.
    70:25
    Oh, Friday, February 24th? Yes. That would be today. Oh, cool. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. The day we're recording, not the day people are listening. Sorry to interrupt. No, no, it's fine. Tom, you're effing beauty. You can do whatever you want. DC, Pulp Fiction, Stern, potentially Foo Fighters or something else. Then we have American.
    70:47
    American with Glittering Fours. I'm seriously most excited about this pen. We've been, I'm fired up for it. Yes. Okay. I agree. Like no sarcasm. Yeah. I am actually, I am excited for this pen. Dennis Nordman makes fun games. It'll be a unique layout. I think we're all just been waiting a long time to see what's going on here, but I've heard some very interesting rumors about this game and the game sounds insane. The game sounds insane, and I'm all for it.
    71:25
    I don't know. Have you guys heard anything that you want to share or discuss? I mean, it's Galactic Tank Force. Just the name alone, I hope they don't take it too seriously because it sounds insane, and I hope they just lean into it.
    71:41
    Do you want to go first, Tom? No, you can because I don't know a lot about the game. about gtf interesting gtf gtf so how can i word this i will just say without giving anything away i think people will be pleasantly surprised about this game when they see it at tpf and i don't i don't want to say too much more about that it's all sure obviously you could look on my face i i know about this game and i'm that's why i'm excited about it i don't want to give anything away i'm not going to do you look pumped up about i am legitimately since i figured out what was going on with this game we had the podcast a few months ago i was legitimately excited for it and you know certain it to me it depends how the flippers feel as well like i actually like the way hot wheels flipped and i had one for a little while so if the flippers stay like they are.
    72:47
    Yeah. I mean, I'm excited about it. I'm excited about what this pin will be. I think a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised when they see it at TPO. Will it have a tank in it?
    72:59
    I think it will be tank themed. I nearly answered that. Tom nearly got me. I think people will be very surprised by it, and I think people will be I don't know. I just, I think I want, I want to say, I won't say that the hype will meet what we're saying. Cause honestly, I have zero idea about that, but I am excited about the potential of this pen. Yeah. I'll just leave it at that. It's, it's Chris Franchi art. We know that. And they've already revealed some little snippets of his art and it's very clear. It's a, what is it like an art deco kind of style? Like it is very stylized. So I think that's the realm we're going to be in. Chris does great art there's no denying that now normally he does a lot of photorealism so taking pictures of things and kind of redoing them but this is a unique theme so it'll just be interesting to see what he does but I have no doubt I bet the layout will be fun, whimsical you know kind of a Dennis Norman layout and I think the art will be great, there's no denying that but I just hope they do I just hope they fully embrace how crazy the theme is and they make something that just stands out, you know, that they embrace. You know, it's been a while since they made a game.
    74:19
    You know, stand out from the crowd, have a great time, let's see what we get. So I don't know. I think it has full potential to be fun. There's no denying that. So American Pinball, JJP. JJP, there's rumored games coming out, and that rumored game is still Godfather. Yeah. So what is it, Eric Minier with Godfather? That's still a big old question mark. I think it's a very interesting theme choice. I do think Eric Minier does make fun pins.
    74:53
    JJP always goes all out with very complex code, a ton of lights, very, I don't know. My guess is if it is Godfather, they're going to make the best Godfather pin they can. I mean, it'll probably be fully invested in Godfather. Will Godfather, if that is what it is, have Hot Rails? Yes. Yeah.
    75:16
    I think Eric Menier patented Hot Rails. That's his thing. I'm pretty sure he's going to have Hot Rails in every one of his games from here on out.
    75:26
    So we talked about this a little while ago, but I think it is funny that we had gone down the rabbit trail of patents, pinball patents. and there's been a handful of them in the last few years. Like Insider Connected has a whole bunch of patents associated to it. But when it comes to patenting mechs, Keith Elwin has multiple patents. Like some of the stuff that he's made, the Magna Grab is patented and then the Jeep on Jurassic Park is patented. Like props to you for like making mechs that are so unique that you can patent them. Remember, there's been no innovation whatsoever in pinball recently. No innovation. None. Is that all? I mean, when it comes to, yeah, J.J.P., Godfather, American. Multimorphic has been hinting at something new. Well, they've said that, yeah. So is it, TPF is usually huge for them because they are there. It is a local show for them. So they usually bring six or seven games with a bunch of their different modules. But they did announce that Scott Denise is the creative director of their next official module. so this will be a brand new module um i know scott i mean he is i would hope he does all the light show because that's what he's known for his light shows are incredibly good and then i hope music hello i hope he does all the music in it and i'm assuming he will and so i love it i love everything that he's made i'm a big fan um i've said it before if somebody's going to get me into a p3 it's probably going to be scott denisi with what he brings to the table i'll just be very like i just think this is a very creative and innovative platform that he's gonna be able to run with um he did all the sound effects on on um weird al so he's very familiar with the platform he's obviously very familiar on how to build a game but instead of having to build a full play field he only has to design a third of it right um they've talked about being able to add mechs in that upper section and it'll be interesting maybe if this is one of the first games that does that I don't really know, but it definitely – I can't think of a person that I'd be more excited for to design the next play field. Well, they're trending the right direction too because they got Denise on board. I think they have Bowen and they have Colin McAlpine. So, I mean, they're definitely trending the right direction. Johnny Crap on Art. Yeah, hopefully they can get a lot of these out there. I mean, the more that's out there and the more they can do with the platform, I mean, that's exciting. I mean, if we go back a year and a half ago when Tom and I just absolutely just grabbed the beehive and just shook it all hell, for now, the direction they're going, this is the direction I was hoping that they would go. And I'm genuinely interested after Weird Al to see what else that they're coming up with. And it seems like they're putting all the pieces of the puzzle together. together the question really becomes are they going to be able to manufacture all this at scale like that's that's the million dollar question with it so hopefully they can hopefully they can get games out and yeah i well i'm excited to see what happens with tpf with that i haven't heard no i haven't been reading it as much but i haven't heard i mean they're making weird outs like they i know it was it's taken longer than they expected but i haven't heard the big uproar I mean, they're getting them out. They are getting them out. And I know my friend Chris got his, uh, where now I don't think he got his other modules yet, but he ordered a whole system. Like, yeah, like he ordered where to L and then he got heist. And I think Lexi, but did he already own the, the actual system? No. So he got the whole thing. Nice. Yeah. So they're doing it, but that's, what'll be interesting is, um, cause I just think this is it is it is a very unique platform in that sense because i'll tell you right now like if i loved scott's game and i decided i'm in i'm diving in on a p3 i'm not just buying p3 with scott's game i would i would buy weird owl and i'd probably buy heist as well like that's the thing is every new customer they have they're buying more than just one game they're probably buying it's it's a cool model it just i don't know we'll have to see i'm excited and that'll be another game so So my prediction for TPF is there's going to be a lot of games that we're all going to want to play. There's going to be a lot of waiting in line.
    79:48
    And there's just going to be – it's going to be quite a show. The hype is real. There's going to be – Chaos. It's going to be chaos. Yes. Like a pure Royal Rumble of all pinball manufacturers. And that's what I'm excited about. I don't remember the last time ever in this industry that this many games are being talked about to come out right around the same time. So it feels like the stars are truly aligning or just like an all out battle to say, OK, here's what we have. Oh, yeah. Here's what we have. Oh, yeah. Here's what we're coming out with. And that's that's what I'm excited about, because I feel like healthy competition like that just drives the games to be better. For sure. And I think it'll be interesting. We'll definitely have to do a recap show. All three of us will be there. And we'll have to do a recap show afterwards. I'm like, well, which game stole the show? You know, like, which game was the hype? You know, like, did you play this yet? Have you played Glossy Thing Force yet? Maybe we'll just have to do a show, like, actually on the show floor as we're doing it. Real-time thoughts with Tom.
    80:53
    I'll just hold the mic. you'll be a whole other meaning he's just he's just holding mics yeah yeah well i think that's about it um unfortunately i do need to wrap up uh so i gotta go pick my kids up from school but um but no i i think there's a we kind of had a little lull there was kind of a lull there in december and january kind of uh what's going on what's coming out you know with bond the reveal the cornerstone in the 60th, it's like it's out, but it's not complete or what's going on. It's just, but I think we're in an, we're in, we're in an exciting time right now. There's a lot coming. There's a lot coming soon. And yeah, just there's a lot of streams we're all going to be watching. And then hopefully TPF will be an awesome opportunity for all of us to actually get hands on the games in place. So speaking of streams, pin clash is going on. Are you doing pin clash, Joel? I will be doing pin clash. I have not done one yet. It's sad to me, but I'm like, my goal is just to get like to submit one. It's, it's one ball. Like it's, it is, it is a challenge. And for some, you know, the, you guys can blow it up and get your million point, whatever. But for me, it's just like I my goal is to complete all four things and be able to cash out on one ball. Like that's I want to be able to do that. Just get 50 percent of the way through it. And I beat the game. Yeah. Geez. I'm not going to live that down. So like, oh, no, guys, I just started one mode. So before we go, we do have to talk about the chat GPT thing.
    82:38
    Joel. so we posted it up on our facebook we posted it up on our facebook but apparently chat gpt under certain conditions knows who thomas knows who i am and apparently it has no idea who joel is so somebody asked chat gpt about who joel is and it said and i quote i do not have any information on a person named joel engelbert can you please provide more context or details about who they are or what they're known for. This will help me provide you with more accurate information. This is an AI website, right?
    83:13
    Yes, that's a very intelligent AI website. Well, just for the people that don't know, so people typed in my name and apparently it's a big question mark. For the two people out there that don't know what chat GPT is. But if you type in Travis or you type in Tom, it splits out a very detailed paragraph. During certain prompts, because you do have to get it worked in such a way. But anyway, so we let the listeners provide us with context that we can provide chat GPT with. So that way we know. So people, do you want to read it, Joel, or do you want me to read it? I don't have it pulled up. Go for it. Okay, perfect. Of course he has it pulled up. Okay, who is Joel Engelbert? Start strong. It says, even robots know Joel sucks. That's my favorite one. It doesn't really add anything to it, but, you know, that's a timeless classic. And then, so, Cause says, Joel is well known for having the best beard in pinball. Yeah, thank you, Brian. To be fair, he has the best beard of all of his friends and family. I disagree. Who has the best beard? Keith Allen. Oh, okay. I was thinking this was wholesome, too. All right, so, Ed says, Joel Engelberth is known for being aniong. I think he meant annoying. No, Anyang. No, no, no. Is it Anyang? Anyang is an Arrested Development. Okay, what is that? The GIF that I posted is from Buster from Arrested Development. There's a character named Anyang, which actually means hello. So Anyang. So it's an inside joke that you don't get. So you're known for inside jokes. Got it. No, it's because he's responding to the one GIF I posted. This is my segment, Joel. Moving on. All right. And Matt has said, Joel Engelbert is a pinball enthusiast and host of just another pinball podcast and co-host of the Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. It's starting out good here. Yeah. It's starting out fine. Joel is far from a competitive tournament player and enjoys playing single level games in his basement with friends and family.
    85:16
    It's getting better. I think it's pretty accurate, yeah. He has a passion for looking emo in promotional photos and talking about all his buddies in the pinball design community. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It starts, you know, I think the AI is really keen on facts. And I think there were some things in there that were not as factual as others, but not bad. You don't have an emo photo? I have, God, I have one photo from college that I regret. And Zach dove deep and pulled it out, and now the world just is eating it up. They're loving it.
    85:54
    Well, thank you. What a great segment. Thank you, Neil. Neil McRae brought that to our attention, so thank you, Neil. Appreciate that.
    86:02
    We better get to the Tom Talks thing. I mean, we got to get you to your kids. I know. I got to go.
    86:10
    We'll save it for next time. All right, save it for next time. I'm not trying to belittle, but I know District 82 had a huge tournament, and I know multi-day tournament. So sorry, Tom, that we didn't dive into that. I'm sorry. Nobody likes competitive pinball streaming. Yeah, we were told that. We were told that. Just stick to pinball. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But no, I will say, Tom, that was very – Three to 400 viewers disagree. Yes, no. That was well done, incredibly well done, and well liked. We'll talk about it on the next podcast. We met a few people that listen to the podcast, so shout out to them as well. We appreciate everybody. All right. Well, we'll wrap her up then. Travis, plug away.
    86:51
    You can find me on this podcast. Tom, to you, buddy. Here in Five Cities Pinball. Joel? Yes. Flip it out. Check us out on Wednesday nights. Flip it out on YouTube. Check it out. We alternate between flipping out with friends, which is a chatting stream, and then actually playing pinball. So hopefully, like I said, soon I'll be either streaming Bond 60th or Scooby-Doo. Should be a good time. And then, yeah, Triple Drain. Yeah. Check out our stuff, Soberall Swag. Thanks again for the intro video, Brad. Check out his stuff. Joel, we could do a head-to-head stream on Bond 60th. That would be pretty cool, actually. That would actually get a lot of attention. I want that right now. So Bond 60th, head-to-head stream. You guys heard it here first. Tom Graff versus Joel I was going to have Neil face him Oh yeah Not needed Joel's going to have to put rubber bands on those outlanes to survive No what I'll do is I'll play a four player co-op game versus one of their single games and we'll see what happens Okay well Tom like always you get the last words Bye