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Episode 2 – Dirty Donny, Dangerous Golf, X-Com 2, & Pandemic

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·55m 11s·analyzed·Aug 18, 2016
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Dirty Donnie confirmed working on new Stern pin; community speculates on music IP licensing and art direction.

Summary

Eclectic Gamers hosts Tony and Dennis discuss pinball and video games. Key pinball segment: Dirty Donnie, the freelance artist behind Metallica's hand-drawn artwork, has announced work on another Stern pinball machine. Community speculation suggests potential themes of Aerosmith, Jimi Hendrix, or Iron Maiden, though hosts discuss viability and licensing challenges. They praise Stern's shift toward hand-drawn art over Photoshop assets and discuss fantasy music pin concepts (Led Zeppelin, Queen, Green Day). Video game segment covers Dangerous Golf (spiritual successor to Burnout crash mode) and brief mention of XCOM 2.

Key Claims

  • Dirty Donnie announced via social media he is working on another pinball machine for Stern

    high confidence · Dennis states: 'Dirty Donnie, the freelance artist who is known in the rock, metal, and punk scene, was the artist for the hand-drawn art on Metallica. And he announced via social media that he is actually working on another pinball machine for Stern.'

  • Three band names have been circulating in pinball forums as potential themes: Aerosmith, Jimi Hendrix, and Iron Maiden

    medium confidence · Dennis: 'the pinball forums haven't been buzzing about this as much as some other topics... However, there have been three bands I've seen bandied about, forgive the pun, a number of times, and that would be Aerosmith, Jimi Hendrix, and Iron Maiden.'

  • Metallica's hand-drawn art by Dirty Donnie is one of the better art pieces to come out of Stern in recent years

    high confidence · Dennis: 'The hand-drawn art on Metallica is one of the better bits of art to come out of Stern in the last several years. I'm a big fan of it.'

  • Stern has relied heavily on Photoshop jobs and cut-and-paste assets for most of their recent pinball machines

    high confidence · Dennis: 'Stern has almost, I suppose, from an artistic perspective, nasty habit of using a lot of Photoshop jobs, a lot of cut-and-paste of assets. And that was pretty much the case for all the pins, all the music pins, most of their pins, bottom line.'

  • Stern's gameplay has been generally strong since AC/DC, with WWE as a notable exception

    medium confidence · Tony: 'I don't think they've had a lot of misses in gameplay. WWE is a standout one where there's been a lot of criticism.'

  • Walking Dead was initially poorly received but became popular after code updates

    high confidence · Tony: 'Walking Dead is probably the most notorious example of a machine that was seen as really bad to play and then got really good to play because of code.'

Notable Quotes

  • “The hand-drawn art on Metallica is one of the better bits of art to come out of Stern in the last several years. I'm a big fan of it. I like the general look, and I like that it's not the normal cut-and-paste type look that Stern's been putting on their back glasses lately.”

    Dennis @ early in pinball segment — Establishes appreciation for hand-drawn art direction shift at Stern and context for why Dirty Donnie collaboration matters

  • “I just don't think they're big enough to carry a table on their own... And another big thing is Iron Maiden, the core of Iron Maiden has always been their art... I just don't think he'd be the right fit for them.”

    Tony @ mid-pinball segment — Addresses IP licensing viability and artistic compatibility concerns for potential Dirty Donnie collaboration

  • “Aerosmith has no problems with licensing. They are everywhere. You've heard their music... They jump genres... They are a very versatile band, and I think that they could carry a table very easily.”

    Dennis @ mid-pinball segment — Positions Aerosmith as most viable of the three rumored bands based on mainstream appeal and licensing accessibility

  • “I think Queen is the ultimate, would be the ultimate for this type of thing... they just have so many songs that resonate with people. They're in movies, they're in stadiums, they're just everywhere. Everybody's heard their songs.”

    Tony @ late pinball segment — Identifies Queen as fantasy pick for Dirty Donnie collaboration, emphasizing ubiquity and cultural penetration

  • “It's comforting to see them turning to people like Dirty Donnie for their future stuff because it makes me think that that means they're listening... people like hand-drawn art. They prefer it to Photoshop assets.”

    Dennis @ late pinball segment — Interprets Dirty Donnie hire as signal that Stern is responding to collector community feedback on art direction

  • “most of the boutiques are going insane with the art. I mean, they're doing a wonderful job... Those tables are beautiful... where WWE or KISS, not so much.”

    Dennis @ late pinball segment — Compares Stern's art direction unfavorably to boutique manufacturers, establishing competitive pressure

Entities

Dirty DonniepersonStern PinballcompanyMetallicagameGame of ThronesgameSteve RitchiepersonIron MaidenbandJimi Hendrixperson

Signals

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Boutique pinball manufacturers (Spooky, Jersey Jack, others) perceived as excelling in art direction, creating competitive pressure on Stern to improve visual aesthetics

    medium · Dennis: 'most of the boutiques are going insane with the art. I mean, they're doing a wonderful job... Those tables are beautiful, especially Hobbit.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts discuss ideal IP and theme characteristics for music-themed pinball: mainstream appeal, licensing accessibility, broad cultural penetration, song catalog depth

    medium · Discussion of Aerosmith vs Iron Maiden vs Jimi Hendrix licensing viability and audience reach; Queen identified as ideal fantasy IP

  • ?

    licensing_signal: IP licensing agreements grant licensee (e.g., Marvel) final approval over game design elements, potentially limiting artistic freedom and forcing compromise

    medium · Dennis: 'it has to do with the licensing because they don't get final say final say goes to the licensee... marvel's got the up down vote they've got the oh we don't we don't like that.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Dirty Donnie, freelance artist known for hand-drawn rock/metal/punk art, announced work on new Stern pinball machine following success of Metallica artwork

    high · Dennis: 'Dirty Donnie, the freelance artist who is known in the rock, metal, and punk scene, was the artist for the hand-drawn art on Metallica. And he announced via social media that he is actually working on another pinball machine for Stern.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern's gameplay quality improvements demonstrated by Walking Dead transformation from poorly received launch to well-regarded status after code updates

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.166

0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast, Episode 2. I'm your host, Tony, joined as always by... Dennis. Hello, everyone. And we're going to be talking about pinball and video games and tabletop gaming like we normally do. And we're going to go ahead and open up with what we've been doing lately. I know I personally have been reading a lot again lately. I've been reading the latest book from Brandon Sanderson. It's Bands of Mourning It's the sixth book In the Mistborn series I'm a big fan of Brandon Sanderson He's got a fun take on His magic systems In all of his books He writes a lot But I've been a big fan For a lot of years And this continuation Of this series is always a lot of fun How about yourself? Oh, I've been putting in some time on Life is Strange, the Square Enix-published time manipulation adventure game, and I've been continuing along with Fallout 4. I might actually get to finish that this week. We'll have to see. I think I'm sort of close. That's pretty much about it. I've been working on some book. I can't remember the title. I've been working on it for six months. It's just not interesting, but I kind of feel obligated to finish it, even though I got it for free. I don't know why. It's always been an issue, but that is just the way I am. Well, if it's that bad, you can't have six months and you have no interest in going back, I see no reason to finish it. Just go ahead and let it fall by the wayside and find something more interesting. I know, but I'm 64% through it, and I'm like, I can do it. I don't know. It's like a test. But anyway, I may drop it. I did get a book for Christmas that I do want to start. I can't remember which one I actually got at the moment off the top of my head because I haven't started it at all. Oh, well. Let's talk about something more interesting than my terrible book. All right, we'll go ahead and jump straight into pinball as our first topic like we typically do. We played at our local tournament lately. Just last week, I did horribly, but we had some friends who did pretty good, and it was still a good night all in all. The most important thing is they got their Game of Thrones premium, and we got a chance to play Game of Thrones. And I have to say, I like it quite a lot. How about yourself? I enjoyed it quite a bit as well for my one game that I got on it. I didn't get to compete on it, which was probably just as well. I went to and out, and I probably would have no matter what. But it was fun, fast, good flow, as Steve Ritchie is known for. And it was seated right next to a Metallica machine, which I have actually put quite a bit more time on. But I mention that because Dirty Donnie, the freelance artist who is known in the rock, metal, and punk scene, was the artist for the hand-drawn art on Metallica. And he announced via social media that he is actually working on another pinball machine for Stern. Yeah, that's a good thing to hear. The hand-drawn art on Metallica is one of the better bits of art to come out of Stern in the last several years. I'm a big fan of it. I like the general look, and I like that it's not the normal cut-and-paste type look that Stern's been putting on their back glasses lately. Yeah, Stern has almost, I suppose, from an artistic perspective, nasty habit of using a lot of Photoshop jobs, a lot of cut-and-paste of assets. And that was pretty much the case for all the pins, all the music pins, most of their pins, bottom line. But Metallica was an interesting, rare exception. Now, the pinball forums haven't been buzzing about this as much as some other topics that I'm sure we'll get to when there's more information out on future episodes. However, there have been three bands I've seen bandied about, forgive the pun, a number of times, and that would be Aerosmith, Jimi Hendrix, and Iron Maiden. And I'd like us to go ahead and start maybe with Iron Maiden in terms of likelihood that we perceive for the band to be actually used for a pinball machine. And I suppose if these three names are being hinted at, not so subtly, perhaps people know something more than what we do. Of these three, though, and starting with Iron Maiden, I just – I don't ever think about Iron Maiden as a band. I know of them. I probably recognize some of their songs. I don't own any of them. I never did. I've never had an inclination to own any of them. And given how they've always promoted themselves kind of outside of radio and doing more alternative methods, it just seems like a really odd choice to me. I just don't think – and this is no offense to Iron Maiden fans, but I just don't think they're big enough to warrant it. But, Tony, what are your thoughts about Iron Maiden as a pin for Donnie to work on? I don't think they're big enough to carry a table on their own. I don't think it's something I could really see. And another big thing is Iron Maiden, the core of Iron Maiden has always been their art. They've got a very specific art style. It's on all their albums. It's in their stage shows. It's everywhere you go. when you look up Iron Maiden, the first thing you see is their art. And it's not like Donnie's.

  • “Dangerous Golf is crash mode from Burnout, but just via golf.”

    Dennis @ video games segment — Encapsulates game design philosophy: destructive physics mechanics adapted to golf genre

    • Aerosmith
    band
    Queenband
    Led Zeppelinband
    Green Dayband
    Walking Deadgame
    WWEgame
    KISSgame
    Three Fields Entertainmentcompany
    Dangerous Golfgame
    XCOM 2game
    Burnoutgame
    Tonyperson
    Dennisperson

    high · Tony: 'Walking Dead is probably the most notorious example of a machine that was seen as really bad to play and then got really good to play because of code.'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Three band names circulating in pinball forums as potential themes for Dirty Donnie's next Stern machine: Aerosmith, Jimi Hendrix, Iron Maiden

    medium · Dennis: 'the pinball forums haven't been buzzing about this as much as some other topics... However, there have been three bands I've seen bandied about, forgive the pun, a number of times, and that would be Aerosmith, Jimi Hendrix, and Iron Maiden.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community and hosts perceive Stern's hiring of Dirty Donnie as signal that manufacturer is listening to feedback about art direction preferences (hand-drawn over Photoshop)

    high · Dennis: 'It's comforting to see them turning to people like Dirty Donnie for their future stuff because it makes me think that that means they're listening. They're actually paying attention, and people are saying, we like it when the art does this.'

    • 5:00
    It's got a very feel all its own. I mean, you can see a piece of their art, and even if it doesn't say Iron Maiden on it, you know that it's an Iron Maiden-based piece of art. And I just don't think he'd be the right fit for them, and I just don't think the table would be the right kind of thing you would see. I don't think they're big enough to warrant the cost of putting out a table. That's a good point. I wasn't really familiar with Iron Maiden's art. I did, in preparation for this episode, actually go and take a look, and I see what you mean about their very unique style, and it's just – it's not the way he draws, so I think that's a really good point.
    5:34
    Transitioning to, I guess, name number two, Jimi Hendrix, I think that's the most interesting idea of the three. I would rank it in likelihood above Iron Maiden, but because I don't think that younger audiences are as familiar with Hendrix other than his name, I don't even think they're all that familiar with his music anymore, given his death at age 27, I believe, the long spans. He doesn't in time since anything's been produced. And he was already in terms of a touchstone. He was known as a great guitar player, but I didn't think he really revolutionized musical genres in a major in a major way or I'd say even in a minor way. Really, I just don't see it as I see it more likely than Iron Maiden because I think he's got better name recognition with a wider swath of audience. But I just don't think it's big enough or big enough in a sense of modern relevance to warrant having a pinball machine in these times, which, while improved, are not like the old days where you would see three pinball machines a month coming out from all the manufacturers. So I think more likely than Iron Maiden, less likely than Aerosmith. But I know we'll get to Aerosmith in a moment. But what are your thoughts on Hendrix? For me, Hendrix is the most interesting of these choices. I enjoy Hendrix. music and I think it could be a lot of fun I think the art that Donnie could do with it would be amazing that said he doesn't have the kind of length he doesn't have the kind of time out there that one would expect for something like this and and well I do think he made some major additions to the musical world, and I think he was very important. I don't think he's as important as he would be if he'd survived another decade. If he'd put another decade in, I think he might be one of the biggest things ever. But that decade didn't exist, so we don't know. And while I think a pin would sell very well, especially with the right designer behind it, I don't really think that it is the number one choice of these three. I think the number one choice of these three is Aerosmith. And what do you think it is about Aerosmith that would resonate most and why Stern would run with them if they could?
    7:56
    Aerosmith has no problems with licensing. They are everywhere. You've heard their music. If you've seen a movie, you've probably heard their music. Steven Tyler, I mean, you see him on TV all the time. They jump genres. They can go anywhere from good, fun, fast party songs to the kind of power ballads that just leave an entire stadium breathless. They are a very versatile band, and I think that they could carry a table very easily. I think you're right. I think that it's – to me, it's about that mainstream success and that mass appeal, and Aerosmith is known. They remain relevant, and they have a huge catalog of songs to choose from. in a way I would label them vanilla and Journey kind of had this reputation in the 80s as well where a lot of musical critics and such felt they weren't pioneers they weren't doing a lot of really amazing things they weren't changing the face of music in a strong positive way but they had a lot of mass popularity and people really enjoyed it and so it's a lot of fun for folks and so I think that for a lot of people They'll either be excited because they're Aerosmith fans or they won't be offended because they're not Aerosmith fans, but they're not – it's not a band that's known to have a huge swath of detractors. And so because of that, in a way, somewhat like Kiss where a lot of people – you have the Kiss disciples and you have other people that could care less about Kiss. They don't think they're an important band or impressive in any way other than having a great stage show. But there have been two Kiss pinball machines that have come out over time. And I think Aerosmith would fit right at home with the music pins that we've seen coming out of Stern.
    9:44
    But for fun, let's transition slightly on that. And let's talk about if we could pick a fantasy music pin that Dirty Donnie would do the art for, what would you like to see? And for my part, I could see two. One doesn't appeal very much to me, but I think it would appeal a lot to an audience, and that would be Green Day. it fits his genre interests and um you know they just got into the rock hall of fame they're still active performers and they do have a huge legion of fans so green day i think would be an obvious choice for for stern to try and get and for me personally i would really like to see a led zeppelin i think their music would lend itself very well to the genre of pinball they have a very large catalog, even though they as a band haven't been active anymore, other than special occasions where they've gotten back together and performed. They're known to being a difficult license, so there would be something a bit exotic about it. And the songs are just, they're very well known. They dominate classic rock stations, and they have a very broad appeal because metalheads appreciate the groundbreaking work they did for the genre of metal music. Rock fans, of course, know them. They epitomized the 70s with Stairway to Heaven, which a lot of people think was the best song of the decade. I think that it would be an obvious choice. And saying aside the challenge, it's my fantasy, so I'm saying aside the challenge of getting the license, I think Led Zeppelin would be a home run for Stern. What are your thoughts, Tony? Zeppelin would be an amazing pen. Zeppelin is just amazing. They've got a lot of songs that could work for modes. I definitely, they would be high in my choice of pens if there was one. I could see Green Day as well. I'm more of a fan of Green Day. I like them quite a lot, actually. But my number one choice, thinking about this, comes down to Queen. I think Queen is the ultimate, would be the ultimate for this type of thing. I think that Donnie's art would work well with it. but they just have so many songs that resonate with people. They're in movies, they're in stadiums, they're, they're, they're just everywhere. Everybody's heard their songs. Everybody knows it. And it would be the perfect play. And it would, I think it would definitely make a wonderful, wonderful pen.
    12:12
    I agree actually. And I wish I had thought of queen because I hear their songs all the time and I just, I don't even think about it anymore because they've always been a presence. Ever since they've been around, they've dominated so much, even though, again, it's not a band that's really producing anything new. Ever since Freddie Mercury died, it just wasn't the same. But people don't care. Those songs were so good, and they're still used as stadium anthems and everything. I think that's an excellent pick. I'd also go ahead and throw out as we're bandying about these ideas of fantasy music pins that maybe the idea – I could only see Donnie working on a music pin. But I could imagine, if we're saying aside license in particular, that he could do a music-themed pin that wasn't just one band. And so if you had a pin that was based on like a movie that was very musical, obviously it's probably 10 to 15 years later than it should be. But a Wayne's World I could definitely see could be a fun theme for a pinball machine. And so I could also see him maybe doing something like that. I don't think of a whole lot of music movies, or at least not music movies that I've gone and watched myself. It's not really a movie genre I'm into, but that would be one that would stand out to me in terms of the type of music and Donnie's preferred type of music to work his art on. Yeah, I think his art would work pretty well for that table. I think it would be – there's a good sound. It's a good soundtrack, and there's a lot of fun songs on it, and it would be a lot of – I wonder, thinking about it. I mean, Wayne's World's got a wonderful soundtrack. Something else that has, trying to think other movies that have soundtracks will work really well besides going to the obvious going to wayne world 2 which isn quite as good but still pretty good but a uh guardians of the galaxy yeah i i it got a great soundtrack the only the thing is i mean i could really see stern doing guardians of the galaxy it's just i don't know if i see stern doing guardians of the galaxy and giving it to donnie to do the art on but again if we're talking fantasy we could say well i want it to be about the music because that's what it should be about yeah i in a way i'm almost i i shouldn't say almost surprised i i could see stern doing a guardian's pin i imagine they would i mean practically i could see them doing it they've done a number of marvel pins before they've done the avengers they did x-men they have iron man still running as vault edition so those are three right there they definitely have no problem having a relationship with marvel i imagine practically I'm going and putting my practical hat on that the thoughts about doing a Guardian's pin are – I wouldn't be surprised if they're in the works and they'd probably wait for the second movie to come out and then incorporate modes from both movies. This is what happened with Iron Man. I don't know if I – I haven't played Iron Man enough to be able to tell you if it incorporated all three Iron Man movies. I don't think so. I think it was just the two. Star Trek was – Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness, so it did two movies there. So it's definitely a route that they have gone with before to give them a little more content, I suppose. But it's going to be an interesting one. And the music is very iconic to it. It's all classic. It's all classic rock. I could see Donnie doing it. I don't know if Stern would want to go the route of kind of branding it like a music pin, though, given that movie doesn't advertise itself as being all about the music, even though it is a key component to it. No, I don't think Stern would do it with Donnie. I was just thinking of movies that have soundtracks that really jumped out at me, and that's been the biggest one lately that did it. And it just hit me that it would make a good pin. I can see Waiting for Two, which is filming now. but you're right it's not a it's not something donnie would do the art for i don't think even if they wanted him to i don't think it'd be something marvel would go for they've got a very specific look and i think they would definitely go for a pull from the actual movies so yeah which would be fine it's not a donnie thing it was just it was just an idea that i really kind of liked okay uh yeah i was i was starting to go down and towards the movies that were about bands or about music you know going down that weird rabbit hole of thinking well what if donnie did a this is spinal tap pinball machine or uh doing a bill and ted pinball machine you know going way i mean obviously i'm going way back with those i think too far back honestly but but you know with all the the rumors circulating right now about stern and a ghostbusters pin being announced later this year i'm thinking i can go back at least to the 80s so spinal taps probably a little little too old but but you know i could there's a lot of there's a lot of fun you can have with a with the music themed pen. But anyway, I'm, I'm interested in seeing what Donnie, what Donnie is going to do. Cause I think at the very least we can be pretty confident that the art on the machine is going to look good. Let's just hope that it doesn't play like a dog. Yeah. And that's the thing. That's all going to be based upon who's actually designing the table. I mean, I, if Donnie's doing the art, I'm comfortable with the art. I think metallic is one of the best tables that Stern has put out in recent memory. Looks wise. It's, It's one of my favorites, and that whole hand-drawn thing is what really got it going. The moving away from just being clip art for the back glass helps it out a lot. Yeah, and it's a good area for Stern to go ahead and start focusing on now because I don't think they've had a lot of misses in gameplay. WWE is a standout one where there's been a lot of criticism. I've put in a number of games on WWE. It is one of my least favorite tables available in the Kansas City area to play.
    17:45
    But besides that one, most of their machines ever since ACDC have been reviewed pretty well in terms of gameplay. Now, sometimes it's lagged and it's been not popular until the programming, the code has gotten up to the machine. Walking Dead is probably the most notorious example of a machine that was seen as really bad to play and then got really good to play because of code. and then to a lesser extent uh the same thing happened to it not to the same degree but star trek was kind of like that kiss is kind of like that right now uh but yeah as long as as long as they're really knocking it out of the park or at least you know getting a good double when they swing on these designs i would like them to pay a little more attention to the art only because when i read the collector community talk on places like uh pinside the complaints about where Stern lags mostly center on the look of the pin, not how it plays, compared to the boutique competitors that we talked about in the last episode.
    18:48
    Yeah, most of the boutiques are going insane with the art. I mean, they're doing a wonderful job, even skipping the boutiques. I mean, say what you will about the actual gameplay of Wizard of Oz or the delays on Hobbit. Those tables are beautiful, especially Hobbit. Hobbit is an amazing table. It is a lovely table. It's a table that's sitting there, not being played, is beautiful, and you would love to have in your collection just for the look, where WWE or KISS, not so much. I mean, well, nobody wants a WWE anyway, but KISS plays okay, but the art's not that great. Walking Dead plays wonderfully, but honestly, the art's not that great at all uh the the the game of thrones i really enjoy the gameplay on game of thrones and i like actually really like the uh premium table but the le and the pro i'm not as big on and even the premium i don't think it's that great of an art compared to like the stuff coming out of spooky or the stuff coming out of some of the other smaller groups yeah yeah it's a it's a common complaint and we'll we'll see if uh if stern steps up their game you know they're getting they're getting pressure on multiple fronts uh to improve a number of of things you know the other the other item that they they get criticized a lot about which we could use as a discussion point at some time i imagine would be their uh continued reliance on dmd display when you know things are starting to move more in the lcd realm and things like that but you know uh they're they're at least They're putting out machines, and the gameplay overall has been pretty good. So they're fulfilling, in my view, the main elements that's necessary to have a good pinball table. It's comforting to see them turning to people like Dirty Donnie for their future stuff because it makes me think that that means they're listening. They're actually paying attention, and people are saying, we like it when the art does this. We don't like it as much when the art does that. And so they're saying, hey, people like hand-drawn art. They prefer it to Photoshop assets. Let's bring in the guy who likes to do hand-drawn art that got a success, and let's see what he can do on a new table. So I'm optimistic. I have no idea if the machine he's working on is going to be announced this year or not. And when you know the – they seem to follow an order in terms of who the designer is. So, for example, because Game of Thrones was Steve Ritchie, we will be confident in saying that if Ghostbusters is the next machine to be announced by Stern, next new machine, you know, setting aside Spider-Man, which we talked about last time, which was a re-release of a Steve Ritchie, we know that Steve Ritchie won't be the Ghostbusters designer because he wouldn't have had time. He was too busy doing Game of Thrones. And so I don't know who is who would who would end up being the designer for for Dirty Donnie's new machine.
    21:48
    Yeah, no, I don't know either. I know Stern is the tentpole of the pinball industry right now. They're the people who put out three machines a year. They're the people who have the most assets. And while they might be lagging a little behind the boutiques when it comes to art and bringing in the LCBs and such, I think a lot of that has it from them being the grand old lady of the ball. they're there they're the reason everything still exists they're the reason the whole thing didn't fall apart and if it takes them a little while to add some of these other things in that's fine i think they're still gonna change and they're gonna catch up and while the smaller groups take these risks and do these big things stern's gonna keep plugging away and when they see like olf lcds get real popular and they'll work they'll start incorporating them in and you'll see stern start to use them and they see more people are really liking the art and tables and and the changes and the special stuff and they'll start stepping in and adding making differences and it's a lot of that also has to do with the licensing because they don't get final say final say goes to the licensee i mean once they license something if they send it like they license something from marvel and they send it to marvel marvel's got the up down vote they've got the oh we don't we don't like that that doesn't look good enough we don't have enough of our actors up there we don't have enough things that's obviously from this movie. So we need to change it, and they've got to change it. And sometimes that's the best they can get by because that's the best they're going to get approved through headquarters. Yep. It's complicated.
    23:22
    Well, I think that pretty well exhausts our pinball topic for today. Should we go ahead and move on to our video game segment? I think we should move on to video games. Okay, Tony. What I'd like to start with, actually, is a game I picked up on regarding – I'm sorry. when I was listening to another podcast that focuses on video games. And it is called Dangerous Golf, coming out from Three Fields Entertainment. And from what I learned, Three Fields Entertainment is the group that was responsible for doing the Burnout racing game series. And they spun off and formed their own company. So now those those minds to to Burnout, which was a racing game that I enjoyed mostly for the crash mode rather than the actual racing. But this is one of the titles. I think it's their second title that they that they're going to release and it's coming out relatively soon this year.
    24:19
    Burnout was a classic. I love Burnout. I used to play Burnout all the time, and I played almost exclusively Crash Mode. It's the entire purpose for Burnout as far as I could see. When Crash Mode stopped being as big of a deal in the later Burnouts is when I stopped caring about Burnout. And for them to be doing a golf game and looking at some of the screenshots I've seen from the golf game, I think this game could be a lot of fun. I mean, I'm looking at one right now, and it looks like they're destroying a bathroom with a golf ball, and there's fire and water flying everywhere and chunks falling down and everything I would expect from the people who gave me Burnout crash modes. Yeah, and it's been said, I guess, by them that Dangerous Golf is crash mode from Burnout, but just via golf. The color scheme to me even looks like the Burnout series. and i agree with you about the issue with when burnout kind of lost the crash i confused it confused me because honestly it started to seem like what was the difference between burnout and need for speed because ea was putting them both out and lately they only seem to be doing need for speed and that's fine it's just because they seem like two flavors of the same game another friend of mine i believe had pointed that out in particular when he had played one of those burnout games that didn't have the crash mode and he was like what why did they turn this into need for speed when he wanted another burnout game a real what he'd call a real burnout game but like you and like me the issue was a real burnout game has to have crash mode so while this is not a racing game uh with a crash mode in it this is definitely a i guess a true throwback to what we think of as crash mode where you're trying to score points by causing as much damage as possible they just decided that you're going to be swinging a club instead of shifting a gearbox yeah that that's fine because i didn't care that i was driving a car a wall i cared about was causing the maximum amount of damage i could that was the best part about uh crash mode was you just look at an intersection you set yourself up right and you and it made it a great party game sitting there in the living room with you and a bunch of friends screaming at the screen as your car flips upside down and skids down a road knocks into a a truck and sends it flying into another car and then everything explodes and it's just seeing how much you can rack up and if that's what dangerous golf is going to be but just taken to you know golf that's great that's fine i've played lots of golf games that didn't let me destroy stuff and they were fine a golf game that lets me destroy stuff heck yeah i'm all about it yeah i'm interested in this it would be one it won't be a day one for me i'll be inclined to get it but only via a sale uh i've tried some other Crash Mode game types before, and they didn't hook me enough to ever be worth what I've called day one purchasing. This one might be. I don't know. Given that it is by the creators of the original concepts of Burnout, I have high hopes for it, but I'm so leery from previous Crash Mode-esque games that I've purchased that I'm not going to go out there and say, well, this is definitely something I going to pick up day one but it is something I hope to actually get during 2016 though incidentally I should point out I did also hear that Burnout a spiritual successor to Burnout is supposed to be the next game after Dangerous Golf So I imagine we'll get a more true-to-earth crash mode out of them when that game is released. However, I don't know a timeline for it. So I imagine it's not 2016 for that. But everyone seems sort of surprised that Dangerous Golf was coming out so soon this year because there hadn't really been a lot about it. They just kind of announced it all of a sudden, and they're most of the way through putting it together, which is for me a welcome change of pace, Mr. Mighty Number Nine. But anyway, it's caught my eye, and it's good to see that the creative minds behind Burnout know and recognize what the community has been clamoring for – or I hope has been clamoring for. And regardless, it's what they apparently are trying to deliver because I don't think it's a void that has been appropriately filled by anything since Burnout kind of gave up its mantle as being the crash mode racing game du jour. Yeah, I don't know if anything has. I mean I haven't played anything that gave me the same kind of thrills that the Burnout games did.
    28:47
    And the thought of them doing another game in that vein, that would be really nice provided, like you said, it doesn't turn into Mighty No. 9. but we'll see i i i'm not going to buy this game day one i'm not going to be two but i will keep an eye on it and i will definitely be looking forward to playing it this year since it's coming out this year that it's definitely on my list of things to do okay well let's uh let's shift to another video game that's one i'm not going to be able to opine on because i've not been playing it but i know you've been very involved with x-com too so why don't you tell us tony what are your thoughts about XCOM 2 now that you've had some significant time in on the new title? I have put some very significant time in on XCOM 2. I have to say I enjoy it better than XCOM 1.
    29:38
    I've only got 24 hours of total play time in on it since it came out last week, so I haven't done too much with it. I can say for you that the character based upon you is not dead, so congratulations, you've actually survived this far into the game, which is better than a lot of people can say. It's much harder than the original XCOM. Much harder. I had to take the difficulty down, and I am not playing on Iron Man this time. I will do an Iron Man playthrough on a harder difficulty, but I need to get a better feel for how the game plays before I do that. it's got a lot of different nuances but there's a lot of fun changes uh the changes to the classes have been really nice uh the specialist class has a little robot drone thing that you can spec it to be able to do heals from a range so you can heal your guys from a large from without being right next to them there are uh the snipers now have an ability they can be specced down your standard sniper type route or they can be uh spec'd down a gunslinger route where they use their pistols you are a sniper in my game congratulations you are not a gunslinger you're a standard sniper because you are my first sniper and you're alive um as i should be as you should be i've played a lot of x-com games where you didn't make it very far but i've learned a lot since then i've adapted i i don't want to be slinging no guns if i'm a sniper i shouldn't be using pistols that doesn't make sense. I need to just be your traditional vanilla, plain middle-of-the-road sniper staying far away from the evil aliens and picking them off safely at a distance. Well, that's what you've been doing so far. Now, the nice thing about this XCOM is they added a character pool. With the character pool, you actually create a character, you name them, you can give them bios and backstories and customize everything, and then you save them to your character pool.
    31:47
    And when you start a game, if you start a new game, it goes to your character pool, and it will pull characters out of your character pool in addition to the normal random characters.
    31:59
    But the game is designed for modability, and you can go in, and with one simple change in an INI file, It will automatically pull all of the names out of your character pool first. And once all of the names in your character pool have been used, then it will start using the characters from the normal random things. Oh, that's a nice feature. Oh, it is a wonderful feature. And to make things even better, it is extremely easy to export your characters and import other characters. It's a .bin file that you can get. There's already huge communities trading characters online. I mean, I've got half of the cast of The Force Unwakens that I've downloaded. I've got a lot of the more popular streamers, Twitch streamers and people and YouTube personalities that I watch. I've got characters that I've downloaded online that are based on all of them in my group. It's been really, really nice addition. I mean, whoever thought of that addition so you don't have to customize your guys every single time was great. It was a great idea. So overall, I guess out of 10, how would you rate XCOM 2?
    33:15
    Nine. I'll give it a nine. Eight and a half because it has some issues that they don't affect gameplay at all. but for some reason it will sometimes get a little laggy like on the um like on cut scenes will get laggy gameplay's fine never had a gameplay problem at all never had any weird bugs but sometimes the cut scenes get a little laggy and as you get later on in the game some of the loading times can actually get a little console like um running longer than i would expect so that that those are the hits but as for actual gameplay it's fun the actual squad dynamics are i mean the dynamics are different they're more advanced but for the most part the gameplay is the same uh as the first x-com if you could if you played the first x-com you could pick this game up and slide into it with no problem other than the fact that it is a lot harder well it sounds like it if you've had to kick it down from iron man which i yeah i did not play enemy unknown at that high of a setting and while you know i was challenged obviously since i wasn't kicking it all the way up to the of the highest modes i was not overwhelmingly challenged i did not usually lose my entire squad unless i you know did something ridiculous like send in a whole crew of rookies three-fourths through the game or anything but yeah my very first playthrough of x-com enemy unknown was a classic iron man playthrough and i beat it um not on my first playthrough but i beat it i've beaten it on classic iron man uh i never changed the settings lower than that until after i'd beaten the game and i was just messing around but this game there's no way i could have done it on iron man some of the big things are like you can get soldiers mind controlled in your first mission i had it happen stuff that you didn't see until later missions in the first one you can get there's all sorts of surprises that have popped up and will just splatter you i've had stuff go from being everything's going good this is a great mission to half or better of the crew is gone and it's been a turn and it was all came out of nowhere and that's one of the other interesting things they've put into play is since the theme of this one is that x-com lost and you're the survivors of x-com trying to uh retake the world uh you start out on not all but most of your missions concealed and you can move without having to worry about the enemies and you can set up ambushes and activate overwatch set up overwatch ambushes and activate them in such a way so you can wipe out large groups of enemies from ambush and that brings a whole new dynamic that is a lot of fun well now that's quite interesting i'm glad that uh that the game is going well and they've taken quite a bit of change uh to this one in a way it sort of sounds like they've incorporated what I almost think was tower defense elements with those abilities, but essentially to do a reverse instead of always being like the alien invaders, uh, where, you know, where you were going and hunting them down in the, in the first game that now you're actually the ones playing defense in a way are well offense, like the aliens where I should say you're trying to defend the earth, but in reality, the only way to do that is to retake it. So that's a really interesting twist because I always hated how those little buggers, cause they were bugs. Sometimes we'd be hiding around there and I'd have to try and find them. And that's what it seemed like. Sometimes I spent more time actually looking for the aliens than I actually did fighting them when the turns started to get combat oriented.
    37:09
    Yeah, no, this time you're sneaking around. They're the ones looking for you. It's been a lot of fun.
    37:19
    I'm pretty happy for a game this early in the year to be this good. I mean, if this game had come out in December, it would have been my best game of 2015 without a problem. Wow. Well, I guess the rest of 2016 has a lot to live up to if they want to try and usurp XCOM 2's throne on your pantheon of top games. Yeah, it's going to be a long slog through the year. There's some other things I'm looking forward to. I've added a few things to my wish list I'm hoping to try out in the next couple months. We'll just have to see how things go. Excellent. Well, let's see. Off to board gaming. Yes, the tabletop segment, the third and final segment of this podcast. I managed to miss tabletop night again, this time because I was on call, so I didn't go.
    38:13
    It sounded like, from what I read on Facebook, that there was over 30 attendees again. So it was a large group. They played a lot of games. but having been looking at some tabletop games and this and that, I'm talking about one of your favorite games, Pandemic. Oh, no. Because I know how much you love Pandemic. Everyone loves Pandemic. I saw that there's a new version of Pandemic coming out. Reign of Cthulhu. It is Cthulhu Pandemic. I'm kind of surprised because I don't really know if we need another Pandemic game. the last one they put out I've heard a lot of good things about it's kind of a legacy game where things change as you play it for the first several playthroughs so your game, if you had legacy and I had legacy they'd be different because stuff that happened through my games would modify my game and stuff that happened through your games would modify your game but there's been a large surge lately of Sthulu-based games just in board gaming. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that all the Sthulu stuff is a public domain, so it's easier for them to get a hold of rights to tag it in, and who doesn't like Eldritch Horror, really? Well, yeah, it's a good point, and while I can't say that I've actually read any Lovecraft other than maybe a short story here or there, as near as I can tell, I think anyone who's ever had an interest in horror, which is a genre that I historically have read a lot of fiction in, is familiar with him, if only because he really pioneered cosmic horror. But I think the thing with – when you mentioned this game to me is it's still pandemic. And so no matter how much cosmic horror you or anyone else injects into it, it cannot be won. This is folly. This is science. It's undeniable. there is it's impossible to win pandemic it doesn't matter how much cosmic horror we have in it it will just be a re-skinned vile game that no one will win and will make everyone sad to all the listeners pandemic is a false prophet do not go down the path of pandemic there are other tabletop games with victory conditions that can be obtained do not fall for this do not be tricked do not let the public domaininess of cosmic horror seduce you you must resist this is the only way this is the only way my friends it is completely a winnable game i have won games in the past no we together have not no it can't happen and i've seen people win the games in really difficult look difficult i i understand that you think you've seen victory that you believe that you've been won But look, in XCOM 2, I am a highly successful sniper. So trust me now. Pandemic cannot be one. It can't be me.
    41:19
    It science It all diseases and everything It like I understand how this stuff works it just no no i don think it possible it is not possible i advise everyone to steer clear of pandemic unless they enjoy losing and in which case there are plenty of other things you can lose that where there is at least hope but i have no hope with pandemic i would be in truthfulness i would be willing to try this this flavor of it that sounds so similar to the original pandemic I probably would just stick with the original if I already had access to it rather than just going for what I'm construing as a reskin unless they introduce some sort of just really cool revolutionary mechanic that dramatically changes the flow of the game. And I just don't think they've done that. I think they just want to have a different flavor to it. And that's fine for those who are fans. Go with whatever and as many flavors as you want. But for me, vanilla is just undigestible enough. So I'm happy to stick with regular flavored Pandemic. yeah I'm sure they've made several changes but I don't think it's been anything big enough to call it a new game I think it's pretty much going to play just like the old game did well with our talk your inability to win a pandemic and your hatred of such a game let's move on to another game that you that nobody said oh I haven't played No, no one's probably played it. And I don't know if anyone's looking forward to it or not either.
    42:53
    You're right. Yeah, the Battle Arena or I think it's Battle Arena Show might be its full name. I'm not I'm not clear. The reason why I wanted to talk about it, though, was what caught my eye about it. It like a lot of these tabletop games is, you know, it's relying on Kickstarter. But what caught my eye was that they failed in their original Kickstarter. They didn't meet their goal. And so they were trying again. And it's been a while since I looked. When I looked, they were pretty close to meeting their goal. And so in terms of the game, I guess we should go ahead and cover a little bit about it. It's a MOBA style, which I believe stands for Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. So it's obviously not going to be online because it's a tabletop game. But – and I am not – I'm not a MOBA fan. Looking at the details of the game, I think it's too complex for casual players to enjoy. So unless you're really into MOBA, I'm not sure how well the game would resonate.
    43:48
    But what I'm curious about would be – well, besides you covering what your thoughts are of like a tabletop MOBA, which this is billing itself to be in terms of a genre. or what you thought when you saw how the rules looked and everything, is what are your thoughts about a tabletop game going back and attempting a Kickstarter again when it didn't work the first time?
    44:13
    Well, I don't actually have a problem with it, provided they listen to any feedback that they received and they know why people weren't happy with it. if it was just a lack of advertising, they didn't get their name out there enough, or there was something in the game itself that didn't really interest people. Because if you want to talk about kick-starting games, it's not unusual for a kick-starter game to be completely done in the first day. I can name two or three that have been completely, they've hit their goal on the first day.
    45:02
    The fact that they are forced to go back again means that there was something wrong. And if they made the changes, if they made changes anyway, and people like the idea of it, I can see it. my big concern here is, like you said, do we really need a MOBA on table, a tabletop version of a MOBA?
    45:26
    All the stuff about MOBAs are, they involve a lot of stuff that the system handles itself. The system plays through it, you know, minions and leveling up and this and that. That's a lot of stuff that you need to take care of and worry about in a tabletop game that even if you set it up easily so the game kind of plays itself and keeps track of all that with just easy mechanics, that is a lot of extra stuff. That's a lot of extra setup, and I think it'll slow down gameplay. It could. I mean, I've already, in terms of a number of the tabletop games which we've played with groups of friends. Some of them, you know, it kind of stands out where there'll be elements, and usually not too many, not on the ones that you've presented for us to play. Sometimes there'll be pieces, and it'll start to get a little complex depending on the game. And so, yeah, I worry about that too, that this just, as a, I mean, for me it's hard because it's never been a genre, even the video game world, that's interested me. There've been some themes that have caught my eye that have made me look at the game and then I see, oh, it's a MOBA. And then I read about it and I thought, I don't think I'm going to like this. And so I generally don't even try. So maybe I'd like it more if I'd give it a go. But I just don't see the broad appeal. See, that would be my guess is I wonder if people originally when they saw the Kickstarter were like, I don't get it. MOBA on table, I don't get it. I don't see the value. But I mean the Kickstarter goal, the redo, I think the target amount was $30,000, And I don't know how much cash – this was funding everything or they had already kicked in a certain amount. I didn't look into it enough on that. But I agree with you in terms of the idea of going back and reformulating and trying again. I think it makes sense. I have no innate issue with it, no problem with it. But what I find interesting is how many of these tabletop manufacturers or manufacturers to be have to rely on Kickstarter and that apparently it was the only option would be my – what I construed this action to be is they didn't know any other way to do it other than to try Kickstarter again. And in a way, it shows where Kickstarter can be valuable, but it also shows just how dependent and perhaps tabletop more than the other genres is for the actual success of actually being able to bring these games out to market. Because we see Kickstarter engaged on the video game side a lot, but we know there are tons of independent developers that do not rely on Kickstarter to make games. And on pinball, other than video game pinball, virtual pinball, like pinball arcade tables and stuff, I don't know of any physical pinball manufacturers that have used Kickstarter or tried to use Kickstarter to actually build machines. So for me, it seems like tabletop is more reliant on this than the other two genres we talk about here on this podcast.
    48:39
    Yeah, it is. It definitely is, especially from the smaller groups. And the big thing in board gaming is they're starting to be – people will create their games, and then they will go and work with, like, CoolMini or not, or there's a couple other groups that they will basically say, well, yeah, this is – okay, we like this game. We'll do the Kickstarter for it. We'll do the printing and stuff, and we'll get a cut. I don't know what the cuts are or anything like that. And a lot of games get made that way. and it's one of the big ways that Kickstarter is really driving board games forward.
    49:17
    But, yeah, with the game that failed and then going back in, it's just some games don't. There's like two games have just literally in the last five days started on Kickstarter that are, honestly, they didn't need to be Kickstarted. I don't think either of them needed to be Kickstarted. I will send you links to them. they are already done, well past. Sentinels of the Multiverse, a game that I have introduced you to, and we haven't played much because I know you're not. It wasn't a game that really settled in with our group. I actually quite enjoy it.
    50:00
    They are starting their Oblivion, which is their final expansion that they're doing for Sentinels of the Multiverse. and it had a goal of 40,000. It's at 754,000 now. It passed 40,000 in like the first hour.
    50:20
    Sentinels is a massively popular board game. Everybody loves Sentinels. And they're kick-starting, they've kick-started every Sentinels thing ever. Even when they haven't had to, that's how they've done it. Basically, they've used it as a pre-order system more than anything else. Okay. I was curious why they would bother then. I guess there's not really much downside to it, but to me it seemed a little odd. If you don't need it, I don't know why you use it. Yeah, and they needed it for the original release and probably for the second expansion or the first expansion from the main release were stuff that they could really do and help them for. but since then they haven't they've done it, they originally said they were not going to kickstart there anymore and they changed that when they decided on how much they were going over the top with this one which is understandable because they're putting together an ultimate collector's case and all sorts of extras it's going to be a much bigger thing and they really needed to see if people wanted all the extras or not. And they did, obviously.
    51:39
    They're going huge. And the other game that has done huge is from the comic Cyanide and Happiness. I don't know if you read it. I read it constantly. I watch their YouTube channel, and I think I just actually today saw their announcement because I was out of town and I got back today and I caught up on my Cyanide and Happiness episode, or little, I guess, the vignettes that they put on the channel. But yeah, go on. I think I do know what you're talking about, the card game, right? Yeah, so the card game is Joking Hazard.
    52:10
    It looks like it plays a lot like Cards Against Humanity. It's a very similar play style where there's a big deck of cards that each card is a comic panel that has action or words or this or that. in the beautifully hand-drawn Cyanide and Happiness art style.
    52:33
    And the judge flips a card over from the main deck, and that's the starting panel of the comic. And then he puts down a panel from his hand of 10, just like Cards Against Humanity.
    52:51
    And it's the first two panels, and then everybody else puts down the third panel. and then the judge decides what's funniest. Oh, okay. Makes sense. It's Cards Against Humanity and the Cyanide and Happiness type of feel. It seems like it could be a lot of fun, especially for the groups that are very much into that game style, that kind of party game style. It's something that's very, very easy to see or to teach and get people playing. I know we play a lot of Cards Against Humanity play a fair amount with other people too. It's just something that's very simple and everybody seems to like. Yeah, it's probably my favorite go-to, especially with people who don't have patience for trying to learn rules because it's so straightforward that pretty much anyone can adapt to it in under five minutes.
    53:46
    Yeah, it was very much a go-to game. And it's easy set up. The set up is so incredibly easy for Cards Against Humanity. And that's part of it. I mean, I love playing Battlestar Galactica. Battlestar Galactica is probably one of my favorite games. I don't actually own it because the setup is incredibly long, and I know that most of the people that I play with wouldn't be able to handle the rules. It'd be too much for them. They'd lose their interest. So it tends to be a game that I play when I go to board game groups and stuff.
    54:24
    All right. Well, we've gotten through all three of our segments for this episode of Eclectic Gamers Podcast. I should go ahead and take this time to specify to people that want to get a hold of us on social media. We are at Facebook.com slash Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Or you can email us at EclecticGamersPodcast at gmail.com. And our next episode will probably be another two weeks to a month out. We're still getting settled down into exactly what kind of format we're looking at. I know there's a fair number of stuff between now and then. We've got another penultimate coming up.
    55:00
    Deadpool just released, and we haven't had a chance to see it yet. I've got a bunch of books on my to-read list, and we'll see what else comes up. Yep. Well, until the next episode, take care, everyone. Goodbye.