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Episode 326: Michael Hanley and Shane Jackson

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·37m 35s·analyzed·Dec 11, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Michael Hanley and Shane Jackson discuss decades of pinball collecting, repair expertise, and venue operation in Canada.

Summary

Jeff Teals interviews Michael Hanley and Shane Jackson at Maple Pinball in Mississauga, Ontario, discussing their decades-long involvement in pinball collecting, restoration, and venue operation. The conversation covers Michael's childhood obsession with pinball starting at age 7, his operation of the Church of the Silver Ball arcade (1998-2013), his friendship with legendary designer John Papadiuk, and the pair's current work at Maple Pinball with a collection of 46-60 machines. They discuss pinball repair expertise, game rarity preferences, and the technical challenges of maintaining vintage and modern machines.

Key Claims

  • Michael started collecting pinball at age 7 and first bought a machine at age 13 after saving money from bottle deposits

    high confidence · Michael Hanley, directly stated in interview with specific personal anecdotes about bottle collecting and convincing parents

  • Church of the Silver Ball arcade opened in 1998 and closed around 2010-2013 due to operational burnout

    high confidence · Michael Hanley, stated explicitly: 'it was 98' and 'I just decided I had enough' operating every single day of the week

  • A Simpsons machine (1990-era) earned $600/week and cost $3,000, paying for itself in about 5 weeks

    high confidence · Michael Hanley, specific financial figures provided with location operator split details (50-50)

  • An old Gottlieb Kingpin EM machine earned only $40/week for 10 years but never broke down

    high confidence · Michael Hanley, describes this as a bowling alley placement with generous replay settings

  • Michael's photo was used as the goalie in John Papadiuk's World Cup Soccer 94 game back glass

    high confidence · Michael Hanley, provides detailed narrative of John calling and requesting photos without explanation until game release

  • John Papadiuk arrived unannounced at Bally to meet Norm Clark after receiving a form letter, and refused to leave until hired

    medium confidence · Michael Hanley relaying John's story, presented as anecdote of John's determination and personality

  • Michael and John Papadiuk worked together on an Alice in Wonderland prototype game in the late 1980s

    medium confidence · Michael Hanley, describes working full-time at Computerland while developing Alice in Wonderland code with John

  • Maple Pinball currently has 46 machines with plans to expand to 60 soon

    high confidence · Shane Jackson or Michael Hanley, stated directly during warehouse tour discussion

Notable Quotes

  • “There's a fine line in the sand between a fan and mental illness. And I kind of tripped over that at some point in time.”

    Michael Hanley @ early in interview — Characterizes his devotion to The Who (25 concerts since 1989); establishes his passionate collector personality

  • “I started playing at seven. By the time I was eight, a book came out. Michael Comer's book was released. Got the book for Christmas. Read it so much that the pages all fell out.”

    Michael Hanley @ early-mid interview — Explains origin of lifelong pinball obsession; shows how early media shaped his passion

  • “When your wife tells you to buy a pinball brand new, you go buy one the next day.”

    Michael Hanley @ mid-interview — Humorous insight into how he justified major purchase of first brand-new game (Simpsons) to spouse

  • “It's uniqueness. Gilligan's Island. Where do you play Gilligan's Island? We just got an ice fever in today. Where do you see an ice fever to play? I like the rarity of the games. You can't go somewhere and play this game.”

    Michael Hanley @ mid-late interview — Core philosophy on collecting: seeks rare, hard-to-find games rather than ubiquitous titles

  • “I've become a bit of a pinball snob now... I'm looking for something new and exciting, a Gilligan's Island, an Ice Fever, something I haven't seen before.”

    Michael Hanley @ mid-late interview — Self-aware observation about collector snobbery; shows how venue curation has changed his play preferences

  • “Single-player wedge heads are the easiest. Really? Oh, yeah. Why? Less relays. The least complex of the beast.”

    Shane Jackson @ repair discussion section — Technical advice on repair difficulty; establishes hierarchy of pinball complexity by era/design

  • “Rotation VIII, I'd say Williams system three to seven are hardest... Rotation VIII—that's just the biggest pig to fix. If you find one running, that guy's a genius.”

    Shane Jackson @ repair difficulty section — Highlights most challenging machines to repair; shows respect for those who can maintain them

Entities

Michael HanleypersonShane JacksonpersonJohn PapadiukpersonMaple PinballvenueChurch of the Silver BallvenueDoug BairdpersonRon AntoniopersonNorm Clarkperson

Signals

  • ?

    historical_signal: John Papadiuk's career trajectory from Canadian enthusiast → unannounced visit to Bally → hiring by Norm Clark → work under Dennis Nordman → immigration departure → neon sign business → return to pinball design

    high · Michael Hanley provides detailed multi-part narrative of Papadiuk's Bally years, departure due to lack of green card, and subsequent neon design work before reuniting with Michael on games like Alice in Wonderland

  • ?

    venue_signal: Church of the Silver Ball closed 2010-2013 after ~15 years due to operator burnout from daily programming (Boy Scouts, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, repairs, tournaments, open houses, parties) leaving zero personal play time

    high · Michael Hanley explicitly states: 'I just decided I had enough' and lists every day of week occupied with venue activities; shutdown occurred despite operating profitably through mid-2000s

  • ?

    operational_signal: Late 1990s pinball route operation model: purchase new game (~$3,000), operate on location (50-50 split), earn enough to pay off in 5-10 weeks, earn profit long-term, then rotate to home collection once earnings decline

    high · Michael describes Simpsons earning $600/week, Old Gottlieb Kingpin earning $40/week for 10 years; operated ~12 bowling centers, restaurants, laundromats; would buy new games to justify bringing home after ROI

  • ?

    design_philosophy: John Papadiuk characterized as artist-first pinball designer who works through continuous ideation and mechanical innovation rather than business optimization; created 100 game designs on full-size vellum paper; shares office with designers and develops new mechanical ideas daily

    high · Michael observes: 'He's an artist. It's in his blood... continuously come up with new ideas and make them happen.' Describes working with John where 'he would have developed something new on the machine' between Michael's shifts at day job

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.113

0:00
it's time for another pinball profile i'm your host jeff teals you can find everything on pinballprofile.com all your subscriptions past episodes and more we're on twitter and instagram at pinball profile email us pinball profile at gmail.com today is kind of a special day now for me i come here all the time but i enjoy coming all the time i want to introduce you to what was once, perhaps in some variation, the Church of the Silver Ball, and now it is Maple Pinball. It is in Mississauga, Ontario. And joining us right now is Shane Jackson and Michael Hanley. Michael, first of all, how are you? Good. Nice to see you. I see your Who t-shirt now. I think I've seen some other pictures around here. Massive Who fan. It can't be a bigger one. I like to think, well, I know there's guys that go to every show. I've been to 25 concerts since 89, so I'm a little bit, you know, there's a fine line in the sand between a fan and mental illness. And I kind of tripped over that at some point in time. So 89 was when they kind of came back. Because if we remember, their last concert ever was Maple Leaf Gardens about 82. 82 they stopped. And then they did nothing for seven years except for a little tiny gig called Live Aid. Yeah, I think I was at that 89 show at Exhibition Stadium. And I think they started off like 30 minutes of Tommy. They did all of Tommy. And then they did two nights. They did a Friday night first, and then they actually put the Thursday night up later. So all the Friday night is the general public. The Thursday night were the diehards. People are crazy enough to buy two tickets. And Shane Jackson, also a big fan of music, too. I mean, Iron Maiden, his Holy Grail pin, his first new in-box game at Maple Pinball. And perhaps Rush Pinball will be coming here soon? Quite possibly, yes. You never know. But you're a drummer, too, and I've come across many people in pinball. that are drummers, myself included. And maybe it's the hand-eye coordination for multiballs? They say that the drummer was the stupidest person in the band. I thought they said they didn't get the chicks.
2:09
Well, you know, I've heard other things too. But anyway, I've also heard that don't underestimate the drummer of the band because he's typically usually the smartest one. And, you know, the hand-eye coordination probably is a little bonus. Well, when we talk about the Holy Trinity, I mean, is the professor not the smartest one of Rush? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the lyrics, you know, the greatest songs. It was amazing. His drum kit was just unbelievable. The sheer quantity of drums that he was surrounded by. And they all had a function. That was the one thing. So we're going to get to pinball in a second. But as we talk about Rush, when you watch Neil. Music first, Jeff. When you watch Neil, you say, okay, how in the hell do you do that? Especially something like Tom Sawyer, which even in his later days, as they did the R40 tour, he said it's still one of the hardest songs to do live because there are so many changes in that. It's a real different style, and there was only one Neil Peart. For sure. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm more of the, I've always been into the songs on every album that wasn't the big radio hits and became my favorites on the albums, other than the radio hits like Anthem off of Fly By Night, right? Like just a fabulous song. Excellent. Okay, let's talk some history here. The Church of the Silver Ball was kind of a legendary place in Mississauga, and it was the brainchild of Michael Hanley. But we got to go back even further. Michael started collecting. I mean, you listening right now, maybe you're in your 20s, 30s, 40s. Not Michael. 13. 13! I started playing at seven. By the time I was eight, a book came out. Michael Comer's book was released. Got the book for Christmas. Read it so much that the pages all fell out. So I said to my parents, I want to buy a pinball. They're like, nobody buys a pinball. This is stupid. You can't do this. then i saw a jan and dean movie on tv and in the background jan had a pinball in his house and i said look look look he's got a pinball and they're like well yeah but he's a musician he's a rock star he can afford a pinball i said okay if i save up for it can i get one sure so little did they know that i would start saving every penny i could find now back then we had two liter pop bottles and there was a deposit on those so i was picking up pop bottles taking them back we had a beer store near us and the teenagers would get brave on a friday night to get a 12 pack and they'd drink them, but they'd never take the bottles back. Saturday morning, I'd go pick them up and take the bottles back. I'm like seven years old. I got kicked out of the beer store constantly for showing up with empties. Wow, your dad's a drunk. Where's your father? Well, he's at home. Why? Because you're not allowed to be in here. Why not? I don't want to buy beer. I just want to take these back. What do you want the money for? Pinball. Very, very cool. And again, I mean, the money was just right there with the empties. It obviously turned into you buying pinball machines. machines and I think Shane you once told me we're gonna we're gonna go all over the place here but Shane I remember you telling me there was a kiss machine here a kiss balling machine in here and there's a neat history of that because you own that machine long long ago sold it and some way somehow got it back and it's got a lot of sentimental value to you yeah what year would that have been Mike like 90 I think it was like 92 so anyway I buy my first kiss machine it's done the playfield is like bare wood. I go to the auction in Toronto that used to happen on Kipling Avenue every month and I meet Bob Manley who had a cabinet and a playfield that was much better than the one I had. So I took them and I took the back glass out of mine and the boards and put them in this new one and voila I had a better conditioned kiss machine. So I asked Mike, I met Mike at the auction too and I said do you want this cabinet and playfield? Yep! Mike takes everything. If it's Free, he takes it.

Shane Jackson learned pinball repair through 30 years of trial and error, including trial at age 10 with soldering taught by his mother

high confidence · Shane Jackson, describes learning through trial-and-error at auctions, not formal instruction

  • John Papadiuk hid Michael Hanley's name in multiple locations on Cirqus Voltaire (playfield, back glass, and test menu code)

    high confidence · Michael Hanley, provides specific Easter egg: hitting both buttons, left 7, right 11, both again in track mode reveals Canadian pinball people list, plus describes playfield and back glass placements

  • “He goes, I'm not going home. You've got to hire me. I'm not leaving.”

    Michael Hanley (quoting John Papadiuk) @ John Papadiuk backstory section — Anecdote about John's boldness and determination to work for Bally; illustrates his personality and drive

  • “He's an artist. It's in his blood. He is an artist. He's incredible how he can continuously come up with new ideas and make them happen.”

    Michael Hanley (about John Papadiuk) @ late interview discussion — High praise for Papadiuk's creative vision and artistic approach to pinball design

  • “When do I get to play? Never.”

    Michael Hanley @ Church of the Silver Ball closure discussion — Explains burnout and reason for closing venue; working every day Monday-Sunday for events/repairs left no personal play time

    • Dennis Nordman
    person
    Raymond Merchantperson
    Gary Gatenperson
    Wade Domitperson
    Joshua Clayperson
    Jeff Tealsperson
    Gene X Wongperson
    [name withheld pending review]organization
    Rushorganization
    World Cup Soccer 94game
    Cirqus Voltairegame
    Alice in Wonderlandgame
    Iron Maidengame
    The Simpsonsgame
    Rotation VIIIgame
    Pinball Profileorganization
    IFPAorganization
  • ?

    technology_signal: Alice in Wonderland prototype developed through part-time code collaboration: Michael Hanley worked full-time at Computerland while coding the game during off-hours; John Papadiuk handled mechanical design and would advance the build daily during Michael's absences

    high · Michael states: 'I had a full-time job... The rest of the time I was coding... I would go off to work, and he would have developed something new on the machine'

  • ?

    restoration_signal: Shane Jackson developed pinball repair mastery through 30 years of hands-on trial-and-error (including blown fuses and transistors), early soldering training from mother at age 10, and learning from auction networks; began by scrapping System One machines, now recognized as expert tech

    high · Shane describes: 'I've been doing it for 30 years, so it was a lot of trial and error... it was back to the auction... picked their brain' and notes early technical skill from mother's soldering training

  • ?

    collector_signal: Shift from quantity collecting to rarity-focused curation: Michael now prioritizes hard-to-find machines (Gilligan's Island, Ice Fever) over ubiquitous titles (Iron Maiden Premium, Simpsons); self-describes as 'pinball snob' seeking games unavailable elsewhere

    high · Michael explicitly states: 'I like the rarity of the games. You can't go somewhere and play this game' and 'I've become a bit of a pinball snob... looking for something new and exciting... something I haven't seen before'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Vintage EM machines require fundamentally different skills (nudging, plunging control) than modern solid-state/digital machines; experienced players who excel at modern games may struggle with EM rules; plays out in head-to-head competitive matchups

    high · Host notes: 'Shane's very good at the EMs, and he just sucks at Spider-Man... EMs and solid states, there is a real art... The older games teach you those skills... quite often where I beat you is the older games'

  • ?

    product_strategy: John Papadiuk systematically hid collaborators' names and likenesses in game designs: Michael Hanley appears as back glass goalie in World Cup Soccer 94, and as hidden Easter eggs in Circus Voltaire (test menu list, playfield detail, back glass cable markings); Wade Domit featured as kicker; Canadian pinball community members listed in test code

    high · Michael provides detailed account of three Circus Voltaire Easter eggs: test menu command sequence reveals Canadian pinball people list; playfield 'Hanley Company' marking near outlane; back glass 'Hanley Company' cable reference. World Cup Soccer 94 features Michael's photo as goalie with Wade Domit as kicker

  • ?

    venue_signal: Maple Pinball is actively expanding collection from 46 machines toward 60-machine capacity; hosts Friday tournament nights and monthly rent-themed tournament on Saturdays with food/drink service; attracts players from hours away due to game diversity

    high · Michael/Shane state: 'I think we're up to 46, but we're getting up to 60 soon' and describe competition schedule and player recruitment from distance due to unique lineup

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball collectors experience ownership regret patterns; Michael sold multiple games (e.g., Volley) and expresses ongoing regret; now seeks to avoid re-acquisition by focused collecting strategy; liquidity concerns drive home collection decisions

    medium · Michael notes: 'I've had a few [Volleys], I sold the last one and I regret it so... we can't have them all but that's one on the list' and describes how space constraints drive selective collecting

  • ?

    industry_signal: Late 1990s-early 2010s arcade viability model shows sustainability challenges even with diverse programming: Church of the Silver Ball survived 15 years with community engagement (Boy Scouts, Big Brothers, tournaments, parties) but operator burnout from 7-day/week scheduling ultimately forced closure

    high · Michael describes venue as operational and profitable through 2010-2013 but closed due to: 'Monday nights Boy Scouts, Tuesday Big Brothers and Big Sisters, Wednesdays repairs, Fridays open house, Saturdays tournaments and people, Sundays birthday parties. When do I get to play? Never.'

    • 5:51
    And he stores it here at Maple. We'll get to that in a second. Wait a minute. I think you charged me for it. I don't remember getting it free. No, you probably did. The common thread here is these two have collected several games over the years. Well, there's more to that story. Shane disappears for what, 15, 20 years? 20, 25. And then out of the blue, he shows up again, and he comes over to the old church. This actually, Maple was the second church. So he comes over to the old church, and the son of the bitch is sitting up on the rack, And he goes, that's my old KISS body. It's like, how do you remember that? And it was. Did you carve your initials in it? No, I remember that when I got my first game that somebody had burnt the noses on all the faces on the side of the cabinet. And sure enough, the noses are burnt. They still are now. Good chance Ace probably did that on his own, if we're being honest. It had just sat on the rack for 20 years. We never got around to doing anything with it. So, the Church of the Silver Ball. Sure. This was your brainchild. You had been collecting machines over and over again. But when you started this, correct me if I'm wrong, was it not 98? It was 98. That's kind of after the heyday. When we hear about these great arcades, we hear of Broadway Arcade in New York City, the late, great Steve Epstein, his wonderful arcade and how they had new games in. And then we saw kind of games go away. We saw pinball companies go away. And here you are with this great collection over the years, opening it up in 98 when home consoles were certainly more popular. The internet was there. Not everyone had it so much in 98 or it was the old, dee-ong, ee-ong, gong, gong, gong, the old dial-ups. You open an arcade. The reason is? We had rented a small building for several years before that. My wife and I had rented them, and we'd bring games in, fix them up, and sell them. But we also had racking in the back where we stored our collection. We had like six games, seven games at home. But we had, I don't know, another hundred there on the racks. And there was just lots of games coming and going. We operated with my brother-in-law, which is where I met Shane. We had a route with about 12 bowling centers and a couple of restaurants and a laundromat and that kind of stuff just to pay for brand new games to justify spending three grand on a Simpsons, operate it for a year, and then you could bring it home. Well, okay, let's talk about that. That was the Daddy Simpsons. Please, please, please. Yep. That game. And I remember, I think I heard a story of you seeing it. Maybe it was at Expo or something like that. We went on the factory tour and we saw them being made. My wife goes, holy cow, we got to go get one of those games. So when your wife tells you to buy a pinball brand new, you go buy one the next day. Hello, yeah. So this is 1990. Video games are very prominent, but you were still earning well on this game. Well, think about The Simpsons when it first came out. That's season two, and they were everywhere, the marketing of The Simpsons. So it was a good earner for you. $600 a week. And it cost you how much? $3,000. Now you had it paid. You split it 50-50 with the location, but still it paid for itself very quickly. So the deal was as soon as it was paid for, we'd bring it home. Well, it was still making good money, so I left it out there for like two years before it started to slow down. And buy more pinball machines. Buy more pinball machines. So then I think for the first location, we went out and bought a Spring Break and a Diamond Lady and a Galaxian video game and a Super Chex, you know, that kind of stuff. A little bit of everything. But I also took an old Gottlieb Kingpin because being an EM guy, diehard EM guy, I figured this is a bowling center. They'll like a bowling game. It made $40 a week for 10 years. That's amazing. And it never broke down. Well, I guess the reason games like that earned well at bowling alleys is they were 25 cents. You got five balls versus three balls with a new game so it would last longer Two games for a quarter Two games even And we were pretty liberal with the replay scores and that because I mean the game was paid for It was a machine so everything it made was profit That is interesting because you sometimes see operators not have a lot of matches or the high scores are cranked. Well, don't you kind of want to get people enjoying pinball and playing more? You don't want somebody monopolizing the game. I get that, but there's got to be a fine line. So maybe you found that. Why are you laughing, Shane?
    9:45
    No, they don't want you to keep playing pinball. They just want your quarters. But because when coils would be not working in a game, they would put a drywall screw so that the ball wouldn't go into that spot anymore. And so it wouldn't screw up and you'd keep putting corners into it. Yeah, quick fixes. We used to call that the starburst fix because out en route, they would drill nails and play fields just to keep the game running over a weekend. Well, they weren't alone, so I'm sure that was the way. But again, back to the Church of the Silver Ball, this is now something you've opened in 98. You had been running games for a while. and you had this huge collection. What made the end happen for the church? What made the end happen? Oh, that's a good question. Because you survived the hard part. Oh, yeah, and we were up in 2010, 2013. I just decided I had enough. I was working there, let's see, Monday nights was Boy Scouts. Every Monday night we had Boy Scouts in. Tuesday nights was Big Brothers and Big Sisters.
    10:42
    Wednesdays we did repairs. Fridays we had an open house so anyone could come. Saturdays there was tournaments during the day. people in the evening and Sunday's birthday parties. So it's like, when do I get to play? Never. Yeah, and you're always fixing games. And that's where Shane kind of comes in because here at Maple Pinball, yourself, Doug Baird, friend of both of yours, great techs when it comes to machines. You've fixed some of my gems, and I really appreciate that. It is an art. It is something every time I ask you, Shane, you say, oh, it's easy. It's this, it's this. It's not easy. I mean, I've heard stories of Michael talking about reading schematics at 13. You were on the Vancouver Island Pinball podcast a couple of times, and there were really good episodes. Just check them out. But it's not easy. How do you figure this out? Shane, teach me.
    11:28
    You just do it for years and years. No, you don't do it. You touch something, you get zapped. No, you do. You just do it. And over the years, there's been a lot of mess-ups. Somebody must have taught you. I blew a lot of fuses. I blew a lot of transistors. You're not this child born with huge metachlorian, all right? Somebody was your Jedi master. Who taught you this? I've been doing it for 30 years, so it was a lot of trial and error. There's no Jedi master. It was back to the auction. I bought my kiss machine, and I've always been the kind of person to, I have to know how this thing works, so I'm going to do it myself. So I met a couple of people at the auction and picked their brain and, do this, okay. Well, not to mention when I was 10, my mother pretty much taught me how to solder, so that was a little bit of a bonus. I've got a car that's got some difficulty. Can you look under the hood? It should be easy, right? No, no. No, no, Shane. It's easy. You just do it. Do you see my analogy here? Okay, it's not just easy. And you really have changed over the years because I remember when I first met you, you couldn't fix games at all. And I remember he used to scrap System Ones. That was the first thing I remember. Genies and Sinbads. Oh, my God, he's killing them off. And then a couple of years later, that stopped. And then next time I met you, you were good at repairing games. Yeah, yeah. And now you're fantastic. You do enough of them. They all work the same. I mean, whether it's a Stern or a Gottlieb or a Bally or a Williams, they all have the same functions and, you know, the same wiring switch matrix. Same with cars. Well, no. Oh, okay. All right. I'm just trying to dumb you down a little bit because every time I come here, I'm amazed at what you do. This is Maple Pinball here in Mississauga, kind of an industrial road area. It's a huge warehouse with how many games now? I think we're up to 46, but we're getting up to 60 soon. So a lot of competitions, usually on Friday nights. I'm here on a Saturday right now. You have this, I guess, the monthly rent is due tournament. Yeah, and rent has to be paid. So it's a lot of fun, too. Pizza and drink and food and all that good stuff. and a lot of people come from all over, like hours away, because the lineup is good and it's a good mix. So, Michael, Shane, you both fix games. You've had arcades. You've got these great showrooms. I know, Shane, you're going to say it's easy, but what type of game is the easiest and most difficult to fix? Single-player wedge heads are the easiest. Really? Oh, yeah. Why? Less relays. The least complex of the beast. There's no player unit? The two-player and the four-player are much more difficult.
    14:07
    So a wedgehead is your best place. Even a 50s game, that's not a bad place to start either because they're simpler. When you say 50s, you don't mean wood rails. Really? Oh, yeah, there's not a lot to them. I can fix the plunger. I mean, I don't know, but I have a feeling I can probably figure that out. No, there's not a lot to them. I mean, the 40s games are really sparse. There's not a lot of circuitry involved in them. Three or four stepper units, a couple of relays to reset it, that's it. But you don't see a lot of those. Well, that's the thing. They're just all worn out and tired. The play fields are probably beat at this point. We have a few. We have about five or six wood rails kicking around. At one point, I had 20 set up. No one would play them. They all look. They like to look at them. They go, these are beautiful. Look at the artwork. Yeah, play it. Oh, no, no, I don't want to touch it. Well, that's funny you should say that because I went to Clay's in Michigan, the FW. The Holy Grail. 350 games, let's say. Mint condition, techs, all that kind of good stuff. You know it. And most people listening to this podcast know it. and he had a lineup of all these wood rails. And my first reaction was, yes, look, take pictures. But then I thought, okay, they're here to be played. He opens it up for this weekend. And so much fun and just unique things and nudging, right? I mean, Shane's a very, I play Shane quite a bit, and Shane's very good at the EMs, and he just sucks at Spider-Man. That's a side note.
    15:21
    But, no, no, EMs and solid states, I mean, there is a real art. And it's funny because a lot of people are getting into the new games, new games, and they don't appreciate the older games. The older games teach you those skills. Yes, they do. They do. Well, that's quite often where I beat you is the older games. Take it easy, Mark. Take it easy. I'll remind everyone to go to ifpapinball.com and check out Players to Play.
    15:44
    Joking aside, we play one of those games, flip a coin, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because it's anybody's game. And it's not because of luck. No. It is nudging and plunging and all that kind of good stuff. So those are the easiest to fix. Those are the easiest. What are the hardest? rotation eight i i'd say williams system three to seven because they don't really have a diagnostic to tell you what's going on unless you get this test chip which i have to guess what would be some of those games oh like flash and firepower and uh you know along that era gorgar yeah okay rotation eight that's just the biggest pig to fix it's a four four player sit down round game that that's a way made. If you find one running, that guy's a genius. Keep that sucker running. It's just a pig. It's the circuitry and it's grotesque. The rotation ones. Yeah. I think I've seen, I've seen them once or twice, but yeah, I mean, that's, I tried one. I looked in the inside and I farted around with it for a little bit and thought not going to happen. Better to leave it to someone who's better than I am. So you both love collecting pinball machines. There is a warehouse. We're going to have some pictures here. And by the way, I want you to check out the pinball shenanigans with Mike Dimas. So Mike's kind of video, walkthrough of Maple Pinball and you'll see some unique things that we're going to be talking about. But when it comes to collecting games, what is it you're looking for? Is it price? Is it the uniqueness? Is it something you've always wanted? It's uniqueness. Gilligan's Island. Where do you play Gilligan's Island? We just got an ice fever in today. Where do you see an ice fever to play? I like the rarity of the games. You can't go somewhere and play this game. That's what I look for. Yeah, I'm kind of the same way and there's certain games i've always looked for you know in the back of my mind i'm still looking for a good volley because i've had a few i have one and i i sold the last one and i regret it so you know we can't have them all but it's that's one on the list but you know i find i said to my wife i've become a bit of a pinball snob now go to allentown so there's like 400 games set up there right and i walk around and go nah nah because i'm looking for something new and exciting a gilgan's island an ice fever something i haven't seen before or I haven't seen in so long that it's like, holy crap, that's worth my time to play. When I come to Maple to warm up, if I'm playing a new game, I'll play the Iron Maiden Premium. You have a very nice one. And Shane, you asked me, why don't I have one? And the reason I don't, it's one of my favorite games. But they're everywhere. I can play it everywhere. So I'm like you. I like the unique things, especially when space is limited. That doesn't mean new games coming out. I'm like, wow, that's pretty impressive. Or maybe it's a theme that you're attracted to. But some of the unique things here at Maple. You mentioned Ice Fever. What else do you got? Mousing Around is one you don't see very often. Aladdin's Castle I played for the first time today. Aladdin's Castle. Well, it's kind of, there's a lot of those around. I've never seen one. No? Never? Oh, okay. Truck Stop we have. Hard Body. My friend Gene X Wong wants a Hard Body game because I think he photographed Rachel McLeish Okay Yeah yeah yeah And it a fun game Underrated Yes Yeah not one of my favorites but that the thing about pinball right It might be your favorite and not my favorite That's okay. It's all pinball. It's good. Michael, you have an interesting history, too, being here in the greater Toronto area. You friended somebody many years ago, and that would be John Papaduke, who was from this area. And you know and I know, I'm a big fan of his games. I think his games are absolutely spectacular. Me too. There's something about them. Name one that isn't $8,000 to $10,000, right? Well, there's that. You know, Star Wars, Episode I. I mean, if you've got to have a weak one, I guess it's that. But everything else, my God. We talk about World Cup Soccer 94. The easiest game to explain to somebody, this is what you do. And it's pretty easy. Oh, I see a goalie going back and forth. Oh, by the way, that goalie is Michael Hanley. Yeah, I got a call one day. John goes, I need a photo of you. And this is before the Internet, really. It's 94, right? 93. and it's like why do you need a photo he goes just shut up and take a picture and send it to me okay so my wife took some photos had them developed one hour put them in the fedex sent them down and i said what's this for and he goes you just have to wait and see and he wouldn't tell me what it was until the game came out so uh i mean that's a pretty cool honor to put your face on there so then later on um he also put wade domit who ran three coins down on the lakeshore he's the uh the guy in the back glass kicking the ball into the net okay so nobody really knows about that unless you know wade that hey that kind of looks like wade circus voltaire he said to me when circus was coming out you got to check circus out carefully and it's like so i go to new way and i look at it and i don't see anything i'm looking and looking and looking and he goes no no keep looking keep looking so he's he's hidden my name on it in several spots so yeah you know should i give it away to your listeners at this point you can give one easter egg sure okay well i'm going to give away i'll give away three easter eggs here because i don't have a circus right now but i i I know it works on visual pinball and, you know, the emulators. In a track mode, hit both buttons, then hit left 7, right 11, and then hit both again. Okay. Brings up a list of Canadian pinball people. So it's me, my kids, my ex-wife, his wife, his sister, his sister-in-law, Wade, Terry coming from New Market. All our names scroll through there. It's like, son of a gun, that is so cool, you know, when it was new. Pretty cool. You said there was another e-strike? Our name's on the play field down in the bottom right by the out lane. There's a red post dividing the in and out lane, and there's a little white box that says Hanley Company on it. Wow. And if you look on the back glass, well, the plastic translate, in the bottom right corner there is a series of three purple cables that the girl's standing on, or sorry, maybe he's standing on them, and it says Hanley Company on one of them. Isn't that something? So that was kind of cool that he stuck up there. Sure. That's just for supporting him. Well, Shane showed me this two years ago. I have kept quiet about this for two years. I looked on my phone. The photo was taken December 29th, 2019. I'm here at Maple. I remember you almost killed yourself trying to get in and take the picture. I saw there was so much crap in the way. Again, we'll show you some pictures. And I said, what is that? Is that what I think it is? And it was the prototype for Alice in Wonderland that John Papaduke and yourself worked on. Explain that. Okay. So back in 89, I used to frequent a kind of like a junk store and memorabilia store called Nostalgia Villa on the Queensway at Kipling, I think it was. Might have been Islington in Toronto. And the guy that ran it was a crusty older fellow. And one day. Shane's standing right there. Oh, another guy. A different guy, even crustier. Oh. And before he kicks me out of the store, he says to me, my son's opening a store next week in Mississauga. You should go check it out. He's going to have pinballs there. Really? You said the magic word. I'll be there. so we show up Saturday morning 10 o'clock and sure enough there's a couple of pinballs in there we get to know the guy uh become friends with him still a good friend with him Ron Antonio and he had this chain of stores called uh commercial break uh for a while I guess it was in the 90s in shopping malls where he sold memorabilia coke signs budweiser stuff neon that kind of thing and um one time he goes hey there's a guy in here who does my neon signs and uh he used to work for bally i gotta meet this guy and he goes yeah i figured that here's his business card awesome so i right away i go home and phone him right away and introduce myself and we start gabbing he said he's got a game for sale and i want to pick his brains i want to hear all about working for bally how did you get in what did you do that kind of stuff so i said well i'd like to see the pinball and he goes it's a 1937 bally payout game called challenger it's got a little conveyor belt where you see the nickels move across okay and you put your nickel in and it makes the trajectory across the front and then if you win it falls and comes back out and if you lose it goes inside the machine and people wonder how pinball was banned exactly nickel sitting there for the taking all you have to do is win them thank you roger thank you roger god bless you roger so uh he says i'll bring it over tomorrow night you can take a look at it so he brings it over i end up buying it off of him and we gab and gab and gab and become fast friends and uh he goes you need to come by my shop one day and take a look at some of the designs when i used to work at bally and he he's told the story before at pinball expo where um norm clark who was working at bally was a canadian from montreal and so john sent him a letter saying i would love to come and see how you make pinballs and work for you and norm clark sent out the standard form letter thank you very much for your interest here's some flyers if you're ever in town come by for a tour john packed his bag and left that night and showed up the next morning knocked on the door and said hi i'm here to see norm clark and they're like uh do you have an appointment he sent me this letter and said if I'm ever in town. Come see him. He said it yesterday. So Norm's like, oh, okay. And they gave him the tour. And at the end of the tour, they said, well, we'll take you out for lunch. And they took him to a steakhouse, bought him a big steak lunch. And then they said, well, it's been really nice. Thanks for coming. And he goes, I'm not going home. You've got to hire me. I'm not leaving. Wow. And they're like, what do you mean you're not leaving? He goes, no, no. Give me a job. I'll do anything. So he got a job there as an assistant working for the developers, the designers. And I know he shared an office with Dennis Nordman at one point. I don't know at when, but before he had his own place, because he was the junior. Gary Gaten was building games back at that time. Ward, Pemberton, Raymond Merchant was writing the operating system for the first generation Bally games. So John's there and he's working and everything's good. And then Bally and Williams merge or Williams takes over Bally and he doesn't have a green card. And so Williams says, you got to go back home. So back to Canada he comes. And then he starts building neon. He's actually designing and making neon signs. That's when I run into him. So he shows, you can tell, he's a pinball guy through and through. People, when they talk about John, they talk about he certainly might not be the best business person. We understand that. We're not talking about that. We're talking about the making of pinball machines. And really, he's an artist. It's in his blood. He is an artist. He's incredible how he can continuously come up with new ideas and make them happen. And I was just always amazed watching him work. So I had a full-time job. I was working for Computerland. So twice a day, someone would come over and go, hey, we've got a problem. Can you help me? Yeah. The rest of the time, I was coding, and I was working on this game for John and I. But I would go off to work, and I'd come back, and he would have developed something new on the machine. This is Alice? This is Alice. Oh, I guess I skipped a little bit here. So really what happened was he started showing me drawings, and he had 100 games drawn on paper, full-size vellum paper, and they were incredible. And they're way better than anything Bally was building at the time, like Beat the Clock, Spy Hunter.
    26:11
    Not exactly strong Bally titles. City Slickers. I mean, just dogs, terrible, terrible games. Hard body. Hard bodies. Hey, hey, hey. Nobody likes hard bodies, right? Hey. Actually, City Slickers sounded cool. It used to have an external flipper button for a second player. So if you were playing, I would have the button on a cord, and I could flip the other flipper to try and make you lose. Wow. Apparently, they were worried people would cut the cord and steal the button. Or beat the hell out of somebody who did that to me. I mean, let's be honest. Okay, so actually, we're going to do a little walk right now. We're going to walk to the back, and we're going to go see Alice and describe this play field, and I'll show you some pictures too.
    26:48
    So Shane shows me this in a – we've walked back. Shane shows me this huge rack, this warehouse where there's stacks and stacks of pinball machines, and I see – I don't know if I saw the side that said Alice in Wonderland. I certainly saw the mock ballet translate, if you will. That's not even a translate. Is that a painting? What is that? Well, we had that made at Kinko's. So we went for breakfast one morning, and we stopped to get gas on the way back. And Petro Canada had fairy tale books for 99 cents when you filled up. And this one was Alice in Wonderland this week. And we had just decided at breakfast the game was going to be called Alice in Wonderland. And there we go, an Alice in Wonderland staring in our face on a poster. So we bought the book, drove to Kinko's, and had the picture blown up to back glass size. This is a game, Shane, that was going to be made. It was apparently one of the Deep Root games. Obviously, we know what happened with Deep Root. And one of the Zidware games. It was going to be... I don't care who does it. It needs to be made. Okay. It is certainly unique. Take a look at the pictures we've put on Instagram, on our Facebook page, and also Twitter. So unlike other John games, sometimes his plungers will feed right to the flipper. If you think of World Cup Soccer and Tales of Arabian Night, Theater of Magic, they go right to that right flipper. This is not that case. This is supposed to feed up over here and go right to the top to the three lanes there I see some captive balls underneath One underneath a ramp One is in a scoop That just from when the game was shifted The balls from inside have rolled in there and they should come out Oh, okay. But those are locks? No, they are locks. Yeah, so they shouldn't be there now. And if you go on the left out lane, there's this flipper in the apron, and there's a ramp behind the left flipper. So when you go on the out lane, you have a one-flip chance to flip it up over a ramp. to get it back into the play field. Yeah, over the left flipper back into play. That's kind of coming from a couple of Zachariah games we saw, like Farfalla, where they have those in-line flippers on the out lane where you get one shot to flip it in. So that was kind of his homage to that, and it was a pink flamingo, which is thus the pink flipper down there. Oh, wow. What else is on here, Michael? Okay, so there were several features on here that ended up on other games. So let's go back to the drawings. He had all these drawings, and I kept bugging him and bugging him, and he had photographs of games that he actually built evenings. He'd work all day long doing his regular job, and at 5 o'clock when they stopped, he would design his own games and build them. He built like 30 games, 40 games over two years. On Whitewoods? Fully functional games that you could play. Not necessarily artwork or anything like that, but functional. You could flip them. And there was one that had three slot machine reels in it that was awesome, and another one called Ice Castles, which was way better than anything anybody was making at the time. But he was the junior guy, and I think he had to pay his dues first. There were senior guys that were way above him in the totem pole. So they didn't get built. But it taught him a lot about the process, right? He learned a lot. And I know he said when Steve Ritchie came on, when Williams merged, Steve was incredibly good to him, taught him oodles. So you have this game because you were working on it. What did you do? So I did the software on it, and I was kind of the muse where he would throw ideas on it. So we have the main ramp here, the Cheshire Cat ramp. That's pretty much the same ramp that ended up on World Cup soccer. John likes long ramps, doesn't he? Yeah, it's a good shot. It's a real nice, satisfying shot. But what this one's really got in it is it's got a neon tube, and as the ball travels, the neon lights up. It doesn't just come on solid. It travels as the ball moves. So it's really a great visual effect. The second thing would be the vanish. Well, that's on Arabian Nights. That's the same vanish five years later or ten years later it got made there. And this little sucker here, this is the trunk. Well, the trunk is really theater magic. And how the trunk came about was really cool. I had a little tiny piece of this one. John didn't even remember this until I reminded him about it years later. We were sitting around his place, and he had some scrap playfields leaning against the wall that we would steal parts from, and we were imagineering. And he had a Williams game, I think, called Derby Day. And I think it's the same unit that's also used on beat time, where it's got four stand-up targets that rotates 90 degrees at a time. And on beat time, it's got, you know, 3, 6, 9, and 12 for the clock. He also had a plastic cube that he'd made in shop when he was in high school, and it was just sitting there on the shelf. I picked up the cube and stuck it on top of the Derby Day mechanism, and he goes, give me that. I hand it to him, he goes, that's really cool, you've made a cube. I said, well, no, I didn't. I stuck this plastic box on this part that was over here, this whole piece of crap. But I went to work that day, and when I came back... This is all before 3D printers, which would be so much easier now. Yeah, and when I went to work that day, I came back, and he integrated it into the game. It wasn't there the day before, and he's like, look, look, look, I found a spot for it, and this is how it works, and this is what it's going to do. So it was just awesome watching this genius. And, I mean, he was the genius. All the ideas came from him. He would say, what do you think, this or this? And I'd say that. Okay, yeah, I think this too. And then he would go off and do a whole bunch of stuff. So he said to me, you can do the software. And I thought, okay, yeah, I'm a software guy. I could do a little bit of software. I'd done some coding, but not a lot. I'm looking at a unique lower playfield, Shane. I don't know when you see this. I'm seeing the clock. I'm seeing a ball. I'm seeing an arrow. I'm seeing almost a glass-like creature in a way. Yeah. Yeah, and it's got a piece of neon around it too that you don't see right now that lights it up. And the ball gets moved around by the clock hand turning. Kind of like teed off in a way? Well, you know how teed off has that spinning disc. Yeah, but instead of the whole thing rotating, just the clock hand. Just the clock, okay. Interesting. I wonder how close this would have been to whatever was being planned at Deep Root because you have the game here. I don't know if you guys have the ideas. Well, so about, you know, because John and I were still in touch. I'm the godfather for their kids. So, you know, we see them three or four times a year pre-pandemic. And at one point I got a phone call from Larry DeMar. Now, I'd never met Larry. I knew who he was. And he goes, hi, I don't know if you know me, but I'm John's boss. And I said, yes, I know who you are. And he goes, John has something in his office that I want him to take out because we're working on something new, which happened to be Star Wars Episode I, but I didn't know it at the time. And he goes, John tells me it's half yours and I can't throw it in the dumpster. And I said, oh, I'd be really sad if you threw it in the dumpster. And he goes, okay, well, you know, we were going to cut it up and throw it out. And it's like, oh, you can't do that. And I said, I'm coming to Expo in three weeks. Can you hold it for me? And he goes, that's a deal. So when I showed up for Expo, it was sitting in John's garage. They'd wrapped it in plastic. It was this. Yeah. So they gave it back. Shane, I know you took it out. Where was it before you brought it out here? It was underneath the rack. and newly opened second row where we're putting more games to play.
    33:32
    This is sadly going to go up on a shelf and be stored until something's done with it. When you say sadly thrown on a shelf, it reminds me of Indiana Jones, Raiders of the Lost Ark.
    33:43
    We've got top people on top. There are plans for it. So right now I have a man cave under construction. I have a 14-foot-long ball bowler and 13 pins in there. That's all I can get in there at the moment. I maybe can get one more game in the aisle, but I'm thinking in the spring I'm going to sell the ball bowler. At that point, I can get another five games in. So it's all about space, right? It's always maybe go to two levels and then sleep underneath them or something. So this will come back, as will a couple other prototypes that I have. Wow. So it's here at Maple Pinball. You might be able to see it if you come here in the next little while. But if you have anything that needs fixed, that is Toronto Pinball Repair, correct? Yes, torontopinballrepair.ca is our website. I know you do house calls, but you can bring machines here, which is obviously if that's something you can do, it's a little cheaper. Well, we give people sort of a break if they can get the machine out of their basement, get it in their car and get it to us. Then we'll give them half off of the labor. You and Doug as well are working on a lot of machines. How much time do you think you put into machines? Oh, my God. Well, I work full time, 40 hours a week. So anytime that I'm not at work, I'm here working on machines. Yeah, it's something. And I'm looking at the stack of here. There's probably 10 on the go or more. Oh, there's probably about 20 here to be repaired. Yeah. But that's the thing, especially when we're talking about vintage games that are 30, 40, 50 plus years old, you know, to be able to bring them back to life. And it's a real treat. I was talking to somebody the other day. It was about coil stops. And he was an operator. Maybe you both know him. Dan Beeson. Yep. Dan was saying that when he gets a new machine to him, but an older machine, he would do a lot of flipper repairs. And he told me something. He said, I kind of wish I didn't do that on some older games because the flippers were better. It would have been better to fix them than to replace them. What do you think of that, Shane? I leave coils alone. I just replace stops and sleeves and linkages and all the stuff that gets worn out. It's a must. You have to. Even older games. I mean, it just makes the flippers that much more alive. But generally, the new coil stops in the last five years, they're all crap. The quality of the new coil stops has been terrible. That's common everywhere. My friends at Slam Tilt talk about that all the time. Why is that the case? I found the last three brand-new-in-the-box games I had, all of them had magnetized coil stops within six months. One flipper would stick all of a sudden, and it's like, really? Change the coil stop, and you're good for another year. I've talked to other people that are like Shane and other people that repair. It's tough to find coil stops now. Why? Oh, you can find them for any game. But quality ones. Boy, do we sound like a bunch of old people. Like, you know, back in the day, they made these the last. But we used to have good coil stops. It is kind of true. Anyway, it is what it is. The website again?
    36:33
    TorontoPinballRepair.ca. And Michael, Shane, it's a pleasure. Thanks for spending time and showing me around this. Yes, it's a league. It's got an arcade. It's a place where you can get more. There's art put into it. It's ridiculous. It's so much fun, and I appreciate it. And by the way, you rotate a lot of games, and you've got new games. You've got Zeppelin. You've got Guns N' Roses. You've got the new ones as they come in. Lots of new games, yeah. Godzilla is on order. Nice. Michael, Shane, thanks very much. Thank you. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. We're on Twitter and Instagram at pinballprofile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com. I'm Jeff Teolas.