Not really, but I we're working with them. So, it's a virtual pinball workshop you're talking about. Okay. Okay. Um I'm uh I'm part of uh Pink Credibles Um I'm uh I'm part of uh Pink Credibles uh a group called Pinredibles. And so, right now the game that we're working on right now is in cahoots with Virtual Pinball Workshop. So, it's PCredibles/ Virtual Pinball Workshop um creation because we got a couple of guys from over there and then we got my guys from Pin. So for people who don't, what does the hierarchy like look like for the virtual pin world? So there's like clusters of people that are talented that group together to try to work on creating games. The highest level is virtual pinball The highest level is virtual pinball workshop right now. The most talented um just Okay, so back in the day people I don't want to go too far like back in the day the earth cooled dinosaurs roamed. Right. Right. back my the paleolithic VPIN era. the paleolithic VPIN era. Yeah, we're not going to go back that Yeah, we're not going to go back that far. But I will say as of today, um I would say and this is not I didn't ask the Virtual Pinball Workshop guys if this is true, but I think this is true. Every game virtual pinball uh sorry vis it's virtual pinball workshop. Every game they work on now uh is kind of like a homebrew in digital form. meaning that uh what they create is made up of actual parts and can actually be built. So the the the the the virtual pinball world has kind of at least the part that I'm in, the the the community that you've seen me deal with with the the chat and the virtual pinball workshop and that those people um um can mostly make real games. I I I usually don't say real games. I say physical games, right? are they're real games even right? are they're real games even though they're digital. Yes, it's it's still pinball, but to Yes, it's it's still pinball, but to some people it's not. Right. Right. Right. Right. What do you say to those people? What do you say to those people? The people that say that it's not real The people that say that it's not real pinball. I don't try and defend it cuz that's a I don't try and defend it cuz that's a losing battle already. If you're like that's not pinball, then I'm like, "All that's not pinball, then I'm like, "All right, don't play it. Stay away from it. You don't need it. It's not for you." You know, I don't get into those fights anymore cuz it's kind of useless. you've already known like you already know where you're going. So, so Jeff, back in the day, um um this was like 10 10 years ago when I just first moved out to the Bay Area. I met a guy named TJ Byer. And TJ is infamous in the West Coast scene at least because TJ and Ken, they own like 400 pinball machines. That's a lot of That's a lot of Yeah. So, they were like the biggest Yeah. So, they were like the biggest most uh uh experienced people in the world. TJ was nice enough because I used to play in the Metrion, the Sony Metrion, and he had like four games there. He had like a Spider-Man there and a Family Guy and he would see me there because he would come to fix the games and he's like, "Hey, you like pinball?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I like pinball." He goes, "Why don't you come over to my place "Why don't you come over to my place sometime?" And uh he gives me his card or whatever. He's like, "I got I got a few games at my house." And this is when he lived games. Oh, games. Oh, bro, I'm not kidding you. bro, I'm not kidding you. This is when he lived. He was living in This is when he lived. He was living in like in Oakland or whatever. So, so my girlfriend and I at the time, my, you know, my wife now, but we go, we went over, there's like 13 games in his loft. And the reason I'm going back so far with this is cuz I I want to I want to just share a quick story about virtual pinball versus physical pinball. Brian has a great question. We're going Brian has a great question. We're going to get to that. Brian. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? Finish your story. Finish your story. So, so we're in there. We're like, holy So, so we're in there. We're like, holy smokes, there's all these games he's had. And there was a there was like a Tales of Arabian Nights. He had a varcon. I don't even know what a varcon is. I don't even know what a varcon is. A varcon is the standup pinball game. It A varcon is the standup pinball game. It looks like this, but it's pinball, but it's pinball, right? If anybody bonsai, but completely right? If anybody bonsai, but completely vertical, completely vertical with like uh I think completely vertical with like uh I think joysticks for flippers or something like that. And it's it's it's weird. Go look it up, you guys. It's insane. It's rare as as as all get up. Um, and what's funny is a side story to that is I'm watching all these people play. It was like a party. He had a pinball party like every every month. And I see this guy on Simpsons with his arms crossed playing like this, right? And I'm like, look at this. Look at this freaking show off here, man. He's so good. He's showing off. It turned out it was Neil Shatz. Oh [ __ ] Oh [ __ ] That's That's amazing. That's That's amazing. He had already gotten to the wizard mode and he and he was just pulling around. and he was just pulling around. He No, it you actually there's a mode in He No, it you actually there's a mode in Simpsons where it flips the switches the flippers. So he was switching to flippers and I'm like who is this guy? And TJ goes, "Oh, that's that's Neil." And I find out later it's Neil Shhatz, And I find out later it's Neil Shhatz, the guy who they invented the shots. Sure. So if you're not familiar with Sure. So if you're not familiar with what shating is, it's when you fire the ball up the in lane with an extremely late flip uh or micro flip, I guess. But yeah, an absolute legend, right? Absolut absolute legend. Um um I So I So Absolut absolute legend. Um um I So I So anyway, uh I got in kind of cahoots with that crowd, right? Because um um Karen and I we were interested in getting a pinball machine at in our loft, right? So we went to get one and TJ was offering he's like, "Hey, whatever item," cuz he was kind of using other people's places as storage, like free storage. He's like, "Whatever game you want, He's like, "Whatever game you want, the overflow that," right? Cuz he had a the overflow that," right? Cuz he had a lot of overflow. So, we were thinking about it and we were thinking and you know I this is me like I played pinball when I was a kid. My first game I would play was Nippit, the one with like the em like the the the alligator head or whatever. It was super old. Look that up too, guys. Um and but still I didn't realize that there was like I wasn't playing pinball when like Adam's family came out and they sold what 20,000 of those. Um, and like I didn't know what the staples of hotness was, like Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, um, um, Adam's Family, right? Those games. Sure. Sure. The Eddie Lawler like time period, The Eddie Lawler like time period, the heyday of 90s, as many people would the heyday of 90s, as many people would say. So, so TJ's like, "Hey, what game do you So, so TJ's like, "Hey, what game do you want?" I was like, "How about an Adams fan?" Well, that's a heavy ask right off the Well, that's a heavy ask right off the bat. Yeah. Yeah. like, "No, cuz if he had one, it would be on location." I'm like, "How about Medieval Mann?" He's like, "What? What are you smoking?" He's like, he goes, "Jeff, I swear to God." He goes, he goes, "I got a diner." And I was he goes, "I got a diner." And I was like, "No, I don't want what Diner's awesome." I know. I didn't know I was going off top level like lowhanging fruit. So anyway, um long story short, I'm at another party of his. Yeah, he moved to a bigger house. I'm at another party and someone asks, "Hey, uh do you have any games?" I go, "Yeah." That's when I started. We decided I decided that I wanted to build a virtual pinball instead of having a physical pinball in the in the in the house. I wanted a project. My my first kid was just born and there was a lot of hanging out at the house. Sure. Sure. Right. Right. So I said, I'm going to build one. So, I So I said, I'm going to build one. So, I this is when there was like no really plans on it. I had to go to like Australian websites to find out what they were doing. Fortunately, they're all in um in uh the metric system, which I love. I hate the imperial system. Who doesn't like to be confused when Who doesn't like to be confused when they're trying to do math, right? It's the best part about math is being It's the best part about math is being incredibly confused. Oh, what? Three. Oh, what? Three. To this day, I I I screw up my um my uh my socket wrenches and my Allen wrenches and stuff like that. To this day, like I don't know. I just find the right one. M6 mm makes it real easy. M6 mm makes it real easy. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, so I decided Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, so I decided to build one and I said, "Hey." And the guy said, "Hey, what do you what do you got?" I says, "Um, I built a virtual pinball at my house." And he goes, "Why'd you do that?" Oh, no. Oh, no. And I'm like, "I I don't know. Because I And I'm like, "I I don't know. Because I wanted to do it. you're dude, you're wasting your time. What what you should just get rid of that and just get a game, get an actual pinball machine. And I'm like, huh? I really like I'm like, wow, talk about taking the air out of like your tires immediately like like the disdain this dude had for a virtual pinball. Now, understandably back then it was pretty bad because the physics were just, you know, moon logic. Yeah. It was like playing pinball Yeah. It was like playing pinball effects, right? Oh, I don't know what I don't know what's I don't know what I don't know what's wrong with them. They seem to think a game is hard if you slope it at a nine. But, um, and all the metal is actually rubber. and all the metal is actually rubber. Is actually Yeah. All the metal is Is actually Yeah. All the metal is rubber. It's so so so I was pretty taken back. I was like, "Wow, that's a mean." You're showing that you're really You're showing that you're really excited about something and the response is to kind of deflate that like that's that sucks. Like even with an opinion like that, you should not, you know, do that. It was. So, so that's the elite. That It was. So, so that's the elite. That was Now, I will say this, that person was the edge case, it turns out, but I just hit got hit with the edge but I just hit got hit with the edge case first, right? Most people I talk to are very respectful of at least a person who has spent 6 months building a cabinet and building this thing right here. You guys can barely see. All of it was built by me. Like I struggled through this build. I had to figure I didn't even know. I was like how can you angle the camera over a little can you angle the camera over a little bit because I do want to dive into the hardware aspect of it. It's like there it is. That's It's like there it is. That's Is that a BSD? No. What What body is Is that a BSD? No. What What body is that? That is a wide body. Oh, it is a wide body. Okay. Oh, it is a wide body. Okay. I built it. I built it's a wide body I built it. I built it's a wide body that I built because I thought the bigger the better. And I would suggest to anybody who wants to build a cab themselves, do not build a wide body. Hey, that way if you ever want to do Hey, that way if you ever want to do virtual widebody, you don't have to squish it in, right? Oh god. No. It's a nightmare. Yeah, Oh god. No. It's a nightmare. Yeah, exactly. Do not build a super pin. It was It was considered Well, it was called a super pin, right? Williams had the super pin, which was indie and uh TNG. And I have I have TNG right next to me. The I have I have TNG right next to me. The real thing, cuz I'm no VP schlub. No, I'm kidding. Exactly. If it's a if it's a physical Exactly. If it's a if it's a physical game, super pins rock. If it's a if it's a cab, you'll never find a screen to fit in there. That's a It's It's cuz it's a non-standard size. And I like don't And you can't use standard. Fortunately, I built mine to William spec, William Super Pittin spec, which happens happens to be Jersey Jack spec, too, until before Elton John and you know and and when they stopped doing the wide bodies, right? For now. Um wide body in the right? For now. Um wide body in the future. Oh, please don't. Um Oh, please don't. Um why you don't like wide bodies? You why you don't like wide bodies? You don't think the Matrix is going to be a wide body? I don't know. I don't I don't know. I don't I don't know. Well, so let me reel it I don't know. Well, so let me reel it back real quick cuz I want to Brian Brian asked a really good question and I don't want to I don't want to forget it. So he asked where can you actually play a VPIN on location because he wants to build one and he wants to understand kind of what it feels like and I think that's a really valid question. You're not. You're not. Yeah, you're the problem. Yeah, you're the problem. Well, okay, here's the thing. There Well, okay, here's the thing. There there are some VPins on location. The one the only place I've ever seen a V pen on location was in Vegas at I no not Vegas in Reno at some I can't remember what the AR the the arcade was but it was it was an old style like uh a Vpin that was meant for routing made by some company TJ used to have one he sold it and so it was it was manufactured to be a so it was it was manufactured to be a location game. It was manufactured to be a location It was manufactured to be a location game. It was the worst experience you'll ever come across. This is why virtual pinball has a bad name because generally speaking, unless you build it yourself and you handpick the components, it's probably going to be a hot mess. Um, if you're an actual physical pinball player person, cuz it it comes down to two things. The physics and the response of the of the uh the flippers. Right. So So I'm going to make a comparison So So I'm going to make a comparison here. Tell me if I'm right. I feel like I'm I used to do a lot of sim racing and I feel like building a sim racing rig is very similar to this VPIN scenario. You know, the difference between attaching a plastic steering wheel to your desk versus building an aluminum frame cockpit that has, you know, multiple monitors or whatever. Would you say that's that's a fair comparison for people that may be into sim racing? Yeah. If you're into sim racing, don't Yeah. If you're into sim racing, don't go out and get like a cheap Logitech wheel. Right. Right. Right. go to Fanitech or go to any of Right. go to Fanitech or go to any of the big other sim actual sim spend the money because you're just going to frustrate yourself. But so where do you even begin to go to But so where do you even begin to go to get VPIN hardware? Um I'm not the authority on that, but I Um I'm not the authority on that, but I do know there are uh there are there are virtual if you jump into my Discord and you start asking around, they'll they'll tell you where exactly to go to get the cabinets built. I wouldn't suggest you build your own cabinet. Cabinets are easy. Just buy a cabinet pack, right? I think Marco maybe sells them or like doesn't doesn't your your new company Well, could I That's right. They just post they just That's right. They just post they just posted that. I was about to say that Barrels is selling uh like kind of like scratch cabinets or whatever. So, if you want to they're trying to promote the home pin kind of community. So, if you have a need for a cabinet, you can get it at a fairly discounted rate right now at uh through barrels. Oh, 100%. And I would just get a barrels Oh, 100%. And I would just get a barrels cab because they're standard standard builds, right? Yeah. They're all they're WPC95 or Yeah. They're all they're WPC95 or whatever. They're Williams. They're everything in there is a Williams component, even the flippers, right? Unless you're Borg Dog, in which right? Unless you're Borg Dog, in which case go ahead and build your own cuz you're awesome. Yeah, he built that Star Wars pin, which Yeah, he built that Star Wars pin, which looks amazing. Shout out Borg Dog. What's going on, my dude? Yeah. Yeah, I see Borg in there giving Yeah. Yeah, I see Borg in there giving me giving me the look. You getting the side eye from Borg Dog? You getting the side eye from Borg Dog? Come on. Nah. Nah. I can't wait to meet Board Dog Nah. Nah. I can't wait to meet Board Dog cuz they're awesome. Okay, so the other thing is um um you know, you can get the cab easy. It's getting the components, getting the screen. You got to get the fastest screen you possibly can, 120 hertz or better. Um best response ever because the issue is flipper response, right? right? Right. You hit those flippers and that Right. You hit those flippers and that you hit the buttons and that flipper better fire. If you have frames, you know, if you have like a 100 millisecond lag, you're gonna have a terrible game of pinball. That sounds That sounds terrible game of pinball. Um, so what I terrible game of pinball. Um, so what I ended up doing is I with some help from my Discord, too. It was a it was a a buddy of mine named uh Marty, who uh runs a channel called Game Club Central. He's like, "Get rid of the screen you have. Buy this screen." screen. It was like one of those 120 hertz, very low latency um expensive. I got it on sale like 600 bucks. Um and I use Nvidia G-Sync, right? And um um just to have a good experience in VPEN, it has to be like curated. Now, there are some companies that will do that, but I don't know exactly which ones, but there's the the the lowest latency the better. And and and and one other thing I will say is if you don't want a full cab, you can get those little BPIN stubby stubby things that use VR, right? So it's like a it's like you're standing So it's like a it's like you're standing at a like a kiosk kind of, right? But you since you've got a headset on, you don't know exactly like like they build just the exactly like like they build just the front part where the lock bar and like flippers um and has weighted down like you put it up against a wall if you want and you wear your you know your MetaQuest 3 or whatever. And um the nice thing about using virtual pinball in VR is that there's like virtually no flipper lag, right? Because you can't really in VR, right? The whole Right. It's it's low latency by design. Right. It's it's low latency by design. Low latency by design. So it's not like Low latency by design. So it's not like a display that has a latency of like 100. It's a it's a display here that has a latency of like 20 milliseconds. So and you can also look around and So and you can also look around and stuff. So there are a lot of options. There a lot of options. I think the you mentioned Game Club I think the you mentioned Game Club Central. I know the first thing I noticed when I went into his channel too is like he's one of the only streamers I know that uses a a 120 Hz top down camera as well to film it cuz the the table itself you can see how buttery smooth and you of course but I'm talking the first time that I went into a stream and saw that I was I was I was the first person to you pioneered it so he stole it from you pioneered it so he stole it from you. Marty steals everything that Marty steals everything that [ __ ] [Laughter] Um, no. I love him that that he's my buddy, so I can say stuff like that. No, the reason that I did that was the reason that I even got into streaming virtual pinball. It wasn't intentional. I was at Frele Watch. I wasn't working there yet. I was at Freelatch and I was talking to the owner. I was like, "Why don't we stream some of these games?" Now, the San Francisco pinball department actually actually uh meets at Frele Watch, SFPD. They kind of had a streaming thing, but it was terrible. Like, it was not working. It was terrible. It was a nightmare to set up. It's hard to stream good, especially in It's hard to stream good, especially in a portable like scenario. Yeah. So, we basically uh um stole an Yeah. So, we basically uh um stole an idea from Carl D'Angelo and Carl made what's uh called well, we went into in the in the in the film industry called a gold post rig, which is basically a door frame, right? It's a top down. So, if you're thinking of your old school like um your cooking shows, right? A cooking show will generally have a camera up here looking down at a plate of food and they be well that's generally speaking a goalpost right which is like two two here and a top and the camera's rigged from the top. So so what Carl did was he out of I guess PVC pipe or whatever like the really expensive stuff. Um he made a door frame and he linked his cameras to it and Carl was kind of the first that I ever saw that figured out you know outside of Jack Danger too. Although Jack may have gotten away with tripods and stuff because he would move the game. Jack Danger dead flip if you guys don't know. Um he would move the game to the rig which is good if you're at home. You don't need to move the rig but Carl needed to move the rig cuz he was you know doing tournament streaming. And I think Papa also did it. I was just about to say that. So, my I was just about to say that. So, my interview with Bowen, you know, he talked about what 12 years ago, the first two people that were the ones that helped Papa set up their streaming rig. You know who it was? No. No. Keith Owen and his brother. Keith Owen and his brother. Oh, Keith Ellen and um I forget his Oh, Keith Ellen and um I forget his other Elwin. Yeah. Yeah. They were the ones who set up the They were the ones who set up the streaming setup for Papa back then. And then Bowen was just kind of the face of it since he got kind of dragged into it. So yeah, the OG streamers because the Elwin brothers, they were because the Elwin brothers, they were they were Dude, have you seen Pinball 101? Yeah, if you can find it on DVD, I don't Yeah, if you can find it on DVD, I don't think it's online anymore, right? Oh, no. I can get you like Oh, no. I can get you like it's still the shout out to Abe Flips it's still the shout out to Abe Flips for making amazing YouTube tutorial videos. And I think he's got a thing coming out soon that's going to be like the new comprehensive one. But Pinball 101, that's like, you know, that's the gold standard right there. I'm pretty sure Keith is like, I don't I'm pretty sure Keith is like, I don't want to watch that ever. But it Randy, that's right. War Dog's telling Randy, that's right. War Dog's telling us that Randy is the bro's name. Randy. Yeah, thank you, Bard. Uh, it Randy. Yeah, thank you, Bard. Uh, it danced between really cool pinball flip flipper tricks to don't fart while you're playing pinball. Yeah, Yeah, it was so good. Pro tip, by the way, it was so good. Pro tip, by the way, don't fart unless you're really trying to like, you know, smoke out the competition. you know, smoke out the competition. Like, literally [Music] hot hot box the entire arcade and your and your foul pinball, you know, butts butts stank. Just just just just be careful, guys. Just just just just be careful, guys. Bring a fan with you. So, okay. So, bringing it back to the VP. okay. So, bringing it back to the VP. So, you're you've got a you got a cabinet. You got a high free rate, low latency monitor. Yeah. So, I was building a I wanted to Yeah. So, I was building a I wanted to build a rig for free go watch. And so, myself and Matt Henry, who's the owner, we we were looking at Carl's builds and I says, "Yeah, but that looks really expensive. I got to figure out a way to do it cheap." And so, I found like a I finally literally found a coat rack um off of Amazon. Um if you guys look at this, you can That's an amazing low budget solution. That's an amazing low budget solution. Is that 8020? No, that's a coat rack or Is that 8020? No, that's a coat rack or No, that's a coat rack. that's a coat rack. Nice. Nice. That's like a coat rack. An adjustable That's like a coat rack. An adjustable height coat rack. Um, now here's the thing. You would not put expensive gear on there. You know, uh uh Carl is not going to put his, you know, uh 2,000 or $4,000 A600 or whatever on that thing. This is basically, you know, Canon uh uh no Sony CX 405s, you know, cheap cameras um that run at 1080, whatever. But but the whole point was I wanted to build it, but I wasn't at the shop. And since I have a pinball machine, that's a super pin. It's the right profile. It's the right talent to test all the stuff I'm building, right? So, I just use this as a test body, right? Oh, I have a pinball body at home so I can build a rig and figure it out. So, one day I just decided, oh, let me start a channel and and and test this. That's why I use physical cameras and not screen capture. Right. Right. Right. Because then you can't get the Right. Because then you can't get the test of what you would be setting up as a mobile rig anywhere. Exactly. Like I can't screen capture and Exactly. Like I can't screen capture and I can't screen capture, you know, Attack from Mars at the shop, right? right? You know, outside of the DMD. You know, outside of the DMD. I mean, I have it. By the way, it messes I mean, I have it. By the way, it messes up with the CGC one. If you do an HDMI out for it, it knocks it off center by about a half inch. Thankfully, it goes back when you pull out the HDMI split. Anyways, I digress. a digital output that you did that for for stuff that has HDMI output. for for stuff that has HDMI output. There's all sorts of quirks like my Dune, you have to reboot twice in order for it to start up. I think it's because the power draw from the USB for the HDMI splitter is like making the five or 12 volts [ __ ] up. I'll tell you what, Jeeoff, pro tip. Um, I'll tell you what, Jeeoff, pro tip. Um, cuz this happens with Jersey Jack Pinball machines, too. You have to you have to um you have to do like a man-in-the-middle attack after the game is booted because the HDMI handshake has to be there for all the so the PC has to see all the resolutions it wants to see. Okay. Okay. Right. It may be it may be you know Right. It may be it may be you know since Labyrinth I guess has I mean uh Dune has two screens. One of them may not be 19 one of them may not be HD, right? 1920 x 1080. It needs to see all the resolutions it wants to see otherwise it's going to go crazy. So, what I would do with um like I used to have a Wonka in the garage and the little screen is a really funky thing. So, I would power it up, right? And then I would disconnect, put in my splitter, reconnect cuz by that time the PC has gotten seeing what the approved resolution is. seeing what the approved resolution is. Got it. It's seeing what the And then you then It's seeing what the And then you then you put in your little man in the middle. Then you put in your little splitter connect and go. I have to do that with the um the P3 downstairs also. you have to just boot it up and you know you're not going to break anything by plugging in HDMI so you have to worry about that. But um instead of booting and booting, But um instead of booting and booting, try that next time. Try like starting it up and then going swap boom boom boom while it's live. Okay, that sounds great. I'm definitely Okay, that sounds great. I'm definitely going to do that. Uh Brian's asking if you have any experience with atame systems. I don't know what an atame system is. At game is at games is a company that At game is at games is a company that makes like uh the little arcades like the Pac-Man arcade. Got I think I've seen some like Mortal I think I've seen some like Mortal Kombats or something that are like mini Mortal Kombats. Yeah. Um the here's the thing that I I don't personally, but the ones I flipped at like an expo or whatever, they have issues with lag. Um once again, you're you're in that kind of area where, you know, these guys figure, oh, it's just pinball. We can throw a screen on it and and it's still laggy. Like when you go flip, it's like flip pop. In fact, I did a video, a high-speed video. That would drive me nuts. That would drive me nuts. it it would if you've never been used to that and you just come in on this level of like virtual it's normal so you can adjust but if you have played any pinball in your life where you hit the button and electricity is the speed of light and the flim fire that solenoid doesn't happen right away. that solenoid doesn't happen right away. Okay. So Okay. So that's where it's at. Do you plug in a that's where it's at. Do you plug in a regular gaming PC into it? Do you run it outboard and then put it in? Is it a system that you put just inside the cab? Are there subwoofers? Where do you get the flipper mechanics? Like I have so many Give me the crash course in filling up the cabinet with stuff to get it going. Like how strong a video card do you need? It's it's actually quite it's simpler It's it's actually quite it's simpler than you think. Um um just to give virtual pinball flipping with no haptics, right? With no feedback. Uh it's a PC uh and two screens and then somehow you connect your you can use an old school like IPAC or you can use any any one of these boards that will convert uh the leaf switches to keyboard input. Okay, Okay, that's it. You're basically hitting the that's it. You're basically hitting the shift. How do you how are you connecting the How do you how are you connecting the leaf switches so that you have like authentic pinball flippers to this whatever gaming translation, right? That's that's a different story. right? That's that's a different story. So that I mean there are multiple ways and I'm sure a Borg knows a ton of ways. There are multiple ways. Um you can buy I don't think they make Pinskate boards anymore. There are boards online you can buy that are basically like uh just convert keyboard input. Um right you can hook up a switch hook put the just you know screw the wire of the leaf switch in and it'll be like the letter A, right? Right. When every time you Right. And then you just bind A to be Right. And then you just bind A to be left flip or whatever or right flip. You bind A to be right. Right. Right. You bind A to be right. Right. Right. Now, there are different levels of those boards. Some boards are super low latency. Right. And there's some really crappy boards that are super high latency. You want the super low latency. There are different companies. I don't think Pinscape makes their board anymore. I bought one a long time ago called the Zebboard, Zeb. He doesn't make them anymore. Um um but there are uh gosh I'm I'm pretty sure Borg can can like mention a bunch of them. But yeah, if you just go online and you look up, you know, uh like IAC controller cuz arcades do it too, right? This right here is a is a mister um that happens to have like an iPack in um that happens to have like an iPack in it. So I can control the mister from there. They're just keyboard commands at that point, right? And that's why what is the cost And that's why what is the cost someone's looking at to build a kind of like barebones? We're not no haptics, no like subwoofer, whatever other whatever we call it like accessories that I mean you can calculate that just that I mean you can calculate that just from your bare minimum, right? Your cabinet, right? So what barrels of fun sense sells cabinets for what 300 bucks? I I forget what the cost was, but it I I forget what the cost was, but it it's pretty reasonable for a substantial amount of of you know treated of stuff wood. Yeah. of stuff wood. Yeah. Yeah. So, like there's the cost of the Yeah. So, like there's the cost of the cabinet, there's a cost of the two screens. One one of the screens should be if you whatever your playfield screen is should be low latency, high uh refresh rate. That's going to be around $6 to $1,200. Really, that's going to be kind of expensive. A high-end PC, not even a really high-end PC. My PC is a like a i7 6700 K with a uh Nvidia 20 2080 Ti. Okay. So, wow. So, the the fairly older Okay. So, wow. So, the the fairly older generation cards have no problem handling the 120 Hz everything. Not mine. I mean, if you go above a 20, Not mine. I mean, if you go above a 20, I think you're good, right? right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, a pretty good processor. The the the Um, a pretty good processor. The the the CPU should be pretty beefy. That's the only thing about mine is not that super beefy because um the physics have to be calculated and right now I don't know of any virtual pinball system that calculates physics on the GPU. Is the lighting ray traced as well? Does Is the lighting ray traced as well? Does it use the 2080s rate tracing for it or does it uh is CPU? No, Future Pinball does insane lighting. No, Future Pinball does insane lighting. Um, Virtual Pinball is still, sorry, Visual Pinball for PC is still like um baked like so that's very specific. How many different that's very specific. How many different platforms are there for streaming? Cuz I know the ones that I've watched of your stream, right? you have ROM folders where you get to load authentic versions of games uh like and not to mention the ones that are being created by the homebrew and VPIN community. So, and then there's other people that just load pinball effects on there, right? So, like if what are the different platforms that people and what experiences can they expect from different types of VPIN platforms? So, the platforms um if you're going to So, the platforms um if you're going to use it in a cabinet format, the platform should at some level support cabinet, right? which means it should allow the ro the the playfield to be rotated to a um a portrait. Uh right, because that's what we're dealing with. That's it's basically a regular widescreen portrait. Um but the ones I use are uh Pinball Effects, Pinball Effects 3, um um Time Shock, which was a very obscure kind of um it's a whole different story. It's that's a whole PC system of its own. uh visual pinball primarily. It's called Visual Pinball on the PC primarily, which which which, you know, a lot of people don't know is like um Jack Danger actually uses as like his uh is a napkin drawing, right? He'll render something. He'll he'll build a playfield in Visual Pinball and then move over to Solid Works and then move over to, you know, all the other like professional stuff. But it's it's a wonderful uh um platform. Visual Pinball is a wonderful platform for Now coming back around to what I was going to say in the beginning of the stream. um the fact that virtual pinball workshop works mostly in visual pinball and the library of of um parts that they use are actual Stern Williams um parts meaning that they can go into Blender and pull up a post from WPC and stick it in the playfield and then they render that. It's not they're not making up stuff anymore. There's actual this is this is all their stuff can be this is this is all their stuff can be built. In fact, this is another aside. There was a game by Astro um this guy Jason. He called goes by Astro Nasty. Um um jumped on my stream a few times. He did jumped on my stream a few times. He did the artwork for Lord of the Rings uh the whatever edition or whatever. The dude is nuts when it comes to um The dude is nuts when it comes to um artwork. He actually did the artwork for the game that we're doing right now. Oh, cool. Um, but he did his own game called Die Hard Trilogy and it was 100% built in digital to be built. In fact, there's a guy who has built a dieh hard in Europe somewhere that actually flips. It's 100% everything that he got like all the measurements, all the stuff he pulled from the virtual pinball game. So now we've got virtual pinball. The VPW group can actually make a homebrew digital do all the code. In fact, that's what we're doing. Pink credibles, the game we're making right now. This is the digital version of it. There will be a homebrew built. So you will see someday a TPF. So you will see someday a TPF. So let's let's let's roll back to this So let's let's let's roll back to this person that made the commentary about virtual pin this. It seems more than ever with the home maker kind of philosophy and like kind of where home, you know, you're talking about like virtual 3D printing and stuff and 3D printing and whatnot that is there going to be more real homebrew systems made as the accessibility for getting components from like actual Williams games like purchased through Pinball Life and getting playfields printed, you know, on materials cuz now there's more printing places than ever that can do direct to wood prints. like are we are we in like what's going to be like a for the people movement of pinball production? I think we're already there. Um the I think we're already there. Um the number there there's another So going through lists of of of pinball simulators, right, that you can use. There's another one called I think Pin Maker or something like that. It's on Steam. Um and and it probably be nice for you to actually grab that guy and interview them because Sure. They are they they built a system that you can build a whole game once again in their system and then um it'll actually write you like a bist a bist yeah it'll make you bas like it'll tell yeah it'll make you bas like it'll tell you what your um your what is it called the um the the I forget what the the ROI or whatever it is not ROI but um yeah not the return on investment yeah not the return on investment whatever the bomb bomb a bomb right a bomb right um so yeah so I think we're already um so yeah so I think we're already there because the accessibility of doing it in digital and then moving it over to and I was I was talking to my buddy Matt. We were driving back from picking up this old Chicago today. We're in the car, right? And he goes, "Yeah, you sent me a picture of that, man. That place looked like absolute pinball em heaven, man. Holy crap." Did you grab my argosi or no? I didn't even know what that game was. I didn't even know what that game was. And I went, "Matt, what's an argos?" He goes, "Oh man, that's a deep cut." Whoa. That's a great game, man. That's a great game, man. This guy knows his [ __ ] I was like, This guy knows his [ __ ] I was like, "Yeah, okay. That's fun. A big spinner on the right." That's fun. A big spinner on the right." Yeah, it's good stuff. I now I want to now I want to go check it out. I'm sure they have one there. Um Um No, we He said he said, "Why don't they just Why doesn't Stern like create the whole game digitally and then make the physical?" I was like, "They probably could, but they can't because they need to put out they need to be doing things at the same time." And the one thing you can push to the consumer is the code. They can always make the code better, but the the hardware has to get out of there. They got to get three games done a year, right? Well, St did have that virtual platform that they ended up dumping. Remember, they had hired some 30 third party developer or whatever and they had whatever it was like Ghostbusters was on there. There's a few games from the like early mid 2000s or whatever. Yeah, that was the people who did the Yeah, that was the people who did the pinball arcade. Um, yeah, I don't I don't to answer your question, I think we're to answer your question, I think we're already there, right? The home brewers are in really good shape, especially with fast being existing fast pinball existing. In fact, existing. In fact, and that's what barrels use for their and that's what barrels use for their control boards. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, in fact, the Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, in fact, the the the lead programmer and PinCreds has already like made the attract mode and a bunch of stuff for our game in Mission Pinball Framework. And it's it's it's so much nicer than working in uh visual pinball v uh vis visual basic because that's what visual pinball is built on. It's like VBA visual basic applications, whatever. Yeah. Not a Yeah. Not a I guess cumbersome language would you I guess cumbersome language would you call it or Yeah, it is a Yeah, it's a hot mess. But Yeah, it is a Yeah, it's a hot mess. But so what can you talk about the theme of so what can you talk about the theme of your game? Do you want to do you want to talk about your game a little bit? No. No. Okay, fair enough. Is is this going to Okay, fair enough. Is is this going to be like a big reveal? Yeah, it'll be revealed in August and Yeah, it'll be revealed in August and like mid August. So, we're going to reveal then we're going to probably try and launch for Christmas. But um it's a Yeah. Yeah. Do we still want to keep it under Yeah. Do we still want to keep it under wraps because we Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Can we set up another Okay. Fair enough. Can we set up another another uh podcast hang in August then when you got some stuff to show? Hell yes. Oh, it's going to be exciting. Hell yes. Oh, it's going to be exciting. We're going to be really excited. Borg dog said, "Who is the lead pin?" That is uh Defishbowl. He goes by the name of Defishbowl. So, uh just a little uh history of pin credibles. The first uh game we came out was was a recreation of Guardians of the Galaxy. Um that uh you know it was like a learning experience for everyone including myself. I had to dive deep and figure out the code. I had a Guardians in my garage during the pandemic and so we were able to throw the ball around. We were able to uh recreate a lot of the um the DMDs. So the thing we were going for was the Stern experience but in visual pinball. Right. The next thing we did was Batman 66, which was great game. Lyman Lyman code, man. great game. Lyman Lyman code, man. LFS. LFS. You go into a Batman 66, you go into the You go into a Batman 66, you go into the DMD settings and you go backwards one and you're at like 168. Yeah, there's a lot. That is not a Yeah, there's a lot. That is not a simple game. At least you chose something simple to At least you chose something simple to try to like be your second recreation, right? Sure. Sure. It was It was simple. It Sure. Sure. It was It was simple. It took took a couple years. It was during the pandemic though when we like I guess had time and um the fishbowl really it I got to say the fishbowl is one of the greatest programmers I've ever met on the planet and I used to I used to uh uh I used to have like three programmers underneath me and when I used to do uh uh software engineering and the fishbowl is insane is his his his credo was just like ah it's just code how did you do that it's just code code man it's just code he's like he's code man it's just code he's like he's like the matrix programmer hammer, right? He just like sees through it. Yeah. Yeah. Just see through it. But um Yeah. Yeah. Just see through it. But um um what what were we talking about? I forget. Uh we were finalizing what it's like for Uh we were finalizing what it's like for building a pinball VC cabinet, but we did a little side tangent to talk about your top secret pinball project.