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Episode 192 - A CMA Whirlwind

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 17m·held·Apr 30, 2023
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Eclectic Gamers covers Punny Factory, new Tilt Bob Pinball company, CCR expanded code delays, and homebrew Overwatch pinball.

Summary

Eclectic Gamers discusses pinball industry news including Pinball Adventures' Punny Factory (unlicensed, single-level layout, Stern Pro pricing), new Florida-based manufacturer Tilt Bob Pinball (working on original theme and potential license), Chicago Gaming Company delayed expanded code for Cactus Canyon Remake with uncertainty about viability post-Lyman Sheets' passing, and a homebrew Overwatch pinball family project from Pinball Innovators and Makers Podcast.

Key Claims

  • Punny Factory will be priced at the same as a Stern Pro

    high confidence · Dennis states this directly as an understanding about Pinball Adventures' pricing strategy

  • Cactus Canyon Remake expanded code is not remotely near ready and won't be available in 2023

    high confidence · Direct statement from hosts citing Josh Sharp's article on NAP Arcade about the expanded code status

  • Lyman Sheets has passed away and will not be programming the CCR expanded code

    high confidence · Dennis explicitly states 'Lyman Sheets has since passed away' in context of CCR expanded code development

  • Tilt Bob Pinball's first game will have an original theme (not a license)

    high confidence · Direct statement about company's announced direction from NAP Arcade article referenced

  • Chicago Gaming Company is not expected to deliver Pulp Fiction in Q3 2024 based on historical delays

    medium confidence · Dennis expresses skepticism about Q3 delivery timeline, noting CGC's reputation for missing deadlines

Notable Quotes

  • “Because toppers are dumb. Figure it out. Dumb expensive. Figure it out.”

    Dennis @ early in episode — Commentary on pinball accessory pricing culture

  • “The biggest hurdle – and I've talked about this before with what feels like practically every company – is the fact that it's an unlicensed theme. That would be the big killer.”

    Dennis @ Punny Factory discussion — Core market challenge for unlicensed pinball games

  • “I don't think they're expecting to sell 1,000 units of this. So if the goal is to turn out 100 or 200 units and then move on to the next game...”

    Dennis @ Punny Factory analysis — Assessment of realistic market expectations for Pinball Adventures' debut

  • “It sounds so, so far behind. And they're having so many issues and they've got a new game coming at the end of the year. It definitely, it is like back side burner at this point.”

    Dennis @ CCR expanded code discussion — Skepticism about likelihood of CCR expanded code delivery

  • “How many more are you really selling? It's going to be another year plus to get it.”

    Dennis @ CCR expanded code economic analysis — Questions viability of CCR expanded code project from business perspective

Entities

Pinball AdventurescompanyPunny FactorygameElementsgameTilt Bob PinballcompanyChicago Gaming CompanycompanyCactus Canyon RemakegamePulp FictiongameJosh Sharpperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Chicago Gaming Company's expanded CCR code project effectively shelved indefinitely; uncertain economics and post-Lyman Sheets uncertainty suggests low priority

    high · Dennis: 'It sounds so, so far behind... It definitely, it is like back side burner at this point.' Recognition that project lacks commercial justification given dev resources needed and existing pipeline (Pulp Fiction).

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Punny Factory uses single-level traditional playfield (pre-ramp era design) rather than multi-level segmentation; standup-heavy layout emphasizes speed and skill shots

    high · Dennis detailed layout analysis: 'It's not really carved up into chunks... feels more traditional... It's sort of the whole play field is a single level.'

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball Adventures planning local market strategy targeting Canadian audience similar to HomePin/Haggis model; focused unit sales (100-200) vs mass market approach

    medium · Dennis: 'focus on the local market and try and get kind of that rally around the flag thing going... see about getting that local support'

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball Adventures pricing Punny Factory at Stern Pro level (~$9,500-10,500) despite being first game, unlicensed, and lacking manufacturer reputation

    high · Dennis: 'I'm actually happy with [this pricing] because it means they're not dropping it at $12,000 when it looks like a game that should be priced like a Stern Pro.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Lyman Sheets' death disrupts legacy CCR expanded code project; Josh Sharp taking over but project now lacks original designer's involvement

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.233

0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, April 30th. This is episode 192. I'm Tony. I'm Dennis. Happy end of April. Tomorrow, don't forget to pay your rent or mortgages. I have to file an ethics report with the Kansas Ethics Commission. Those are due monthly during the session. To show how ethical you are. To show how much food and drink I bought legislators. I get to check the box that said, I spent under $100 this month, and then sign it. Because I bought one legislature, a single scotch. Because I buy them nothing. Nothing. And then they never vote for me, and maybe that's why. Maybe that's why. Maybe you need to be buying more legislators.
0:58
The Thomas approach? if it works for a judge. Anyway, we're being a little political here and we don't normally do that, so let us go ahead and deviate. As Tony noted, this is episode 192 and we had complaints.
1:12
Well, at least one complaint. The last episode was too short. In our defense, there were no news. There was no news. And we've covered so many filler topics over the years that do you all really want us to just redo a filler topic? Maybe you do. I don't really like to do that. It feels lazy to me. And in our defense and in favor of our Patreon members, we did offer over 20 minutes of content reviewing movies for those individuals that were supporting us at any level they choose to support us at. Speaking of which, we did pick up a new member since the last episode. Josh R. has joined at the basic support tier. So, Josh, thank you very much for supporting the show. And as a reminder, patreon.com slash eclectic gamers podcast. If anyone wants to participate, all the regular podcast audio remains free. There's no difference in the tiers and what you get. It's just if you want to support the show, you do have an option to do so.
2:06
Lyman Sheets
person
Dennisperson
Tonyperson
Pinball Innovators and Makers Podcastorganization
NAP Arcadeorganization
Monster Bashgame
Stern Pinballcompany
Firepowergame
Steve Ritchieperson
Overwatchgame
Eclectic Gamers Podcastorganization

high · Dennis: 'Lyman Sheets has since passed away... Josh Sharp has shared information... How many people were getting it because they wanted Lyman code? And it's not going to really be Lyman code at this point.'

  • ?

    announcement: New Florida-based pinball manufacturer Tilt Bob Pinball launching with original IP first game; homebrew Elf creator's commercial transition

    high · Dennis: 'New pinball company launching in Florida called Tilt Bob Pinball... the company, it's by the guy who made the homebrew Elf... they are working on an original theme an original game'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Punny Factory rules emphasis on pun variety (50 target puns from library of hundreds) as core gameplay differentiator to avoid sameness/monotony

    medium · Dennis: 'The goal when you play is to put together 50 puns, and they have a few hundred to be able to build from. So ideally it wouldn't be too samey'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Host skepticism about Chicago Gaming Company's ability to deliver expanded CCR code timeline; pattern of delays affecting credibility

    high · Dennis: 'Chicago gamey's reputation is they can't put anything out on time... I'm going to be shocked if this is out at 2023 at all' [referring to Q3 targets]

    • What has been happening with you since the last episode? I have continued to play the same games I was playing.
    2:16
    Horizon Zero Dawn, Jedi. Not Fallen Order. Yeah, Fallen Order. Fallen Order, not Survivor. Nothing new. Last Survivor. Fallen Order. Okay, right.
    2:28
    One of the little kind of fun games that I played a lot last year, Nova Drift had a new patch that added a whole bunch of new enemy types and boss types, so I played some of that. Other than that, I finally finished reading the old Man War series, and I'm getting ready to start reading. My reading, I talk about reading. You do. I am actually, I am currently listening to one series in audiobook form, and then I am physically reading two other series in different forms. And then I'm, one of which, like I'm reading one series on my Kindle. I've got another series that I have on my phone that I've been reading on my phone when I don't have my Kindle with me. that I actually have been reading another in a actual physical book. So I'm currently running like four separate items of reading when I've been doing my reading lately. So it's been, I won't say confusing, but it's very massive amounts of reading lately. Yes. Well, you've always been fairly voracious when it comes to literature. So I don't find that surprising. I have not been reading anything of note lately I have returned to the video game Hades because Hades 2 was announced at the Game Awards several months ago I don't recall when that is coming out but because I finished up some other games that I've been working on I decided let me go back to this because I'd still not gotten to the true, not the true, but the epilogue and there's an achievement for that actually get to the epilogue of the game, I have now done that got to the epilogue two or three days ago. And then actually yesterday, I finally was able to, this won't make any sense to anyone who hasn't really played the game, but I finally got through a run with 16 packs turned on. So there are these added handicaps that you can enable in the game. When you turn on 16 of them, that gets you Skelly's second award that he unveils, which is basically a cosmetic thing. but there's also an achievement for the for that one there's not an achievement for doing the third one which is like i think all 32 turned on wow but um so i don't really have an intention of doing that it was hard enough turning on because it's like which ones do you pick okay well things are going to cost more i don't get to choose my boons when i get things from the gods it will be one uh every single boss has full upgrades like there's nothing quite like fighting hades and he summoned service to fight against oh oh i was like what the no i fed him treats i pet him this no and nope i did not win that one when he brought servers out i was like nope dead back to the spawn room so so i've been playing that and before we get into the show i thought uh again we had already mentioned this but we had done some additional audio and we had a little bit of a discussion on the podcast last time about us seeing mario super mario we both also seen the dungeons and dragons movie so i put a poll up on on our patreon asking which did you think was better dungeons dragons or the super mario brothers movie and the poll results were 14 thought mario was better 5 thought dungeons dragons was better and 81 said they hadn't seen both of them so they couldn't say that i mean that makes sense yeah i'd hoped for a little bit stronger uh showing out of the uh i guess what i'm saying is if you can buy a pinball machine you can see a movie sure i guess there's I can't really say you're morally obligated, though. I'm just playing out that you could. They just said they've not seen both of them yet. Some people only go to a movie every now and then. Yeah.
    6:17
    How many movies could you see for the price of a topper? A lot. Yeah, a lot. Because toppers are dumb. Figure it out. Dumb expensive. Figure it out. So speaking of expensive, let's go ahead and go into the pinball segment. because generally speaking, that is a more expensive thing to talk about than video games.
    6:38
    We do actually have some items worth discussing. Let's go ahead and start with Punny Factory. We've talked about that before.
    6:46
    So Pinball Adventures, they announced years ago the plan to do multiple pinball machines and that the first game was going to be Punny Factory. And they have finally started to reveal that game formally, getting ready to gear up to start selling. So there have been a couple of videos that have been put out. I actually do have a link in the show notes to a trailer for Punny Factory. I also have a link to their Making Of video, which goes into a little more depth about some of the decisions that they've made with the game.
    7:17
    And I have heard that there is a gameplay reveal that was done. Actually, I know it was done, and I heard from some people who saw it. I did not go back and I wasn't able to watch the gameplay reveal live and I did not go back and watch it because unfortunately all of the reports I received were that there were some like serious frame rate issues and issues with the stream not with the game but with the stream of the game. and I didn't want to experience the game in a poor format. So, you know, because again, I've watched a lot of... Actually, I very rarely watch gameplay reveals live anymore because I've seen so many bad ones where like frames are getting dropped or the audio is not working right or cameras are desyncing and all it does is give a bad impression and I don't want that impression from the stream to infect my thought of the game. Yeah, which makes sense. So usually I wait for them to be pre-recorded now and then if I hear the stream is good, I'll check it. But if I hear the stream had problems, I don't. So I am not planning to go and watch that particular gameplay reveal. I would assume they'll do another one here eventually.
    8:21
    In our internal notes, Tony, I did include a photo of a piece from the video, one of the videos that they did, which shows some of the information. Actually, I think this is a flyer of theirs. But you get kind of a sense of the layout. We've seen some photos of the layout before and some of the stuff that they're planning to do with it. So I thought we'd have a little bit of a discussion about our thoughts on this. Obviously, the biggest hurdle – and I've talked about this before with what feels like practically every company. But the big hurdle, of course, is the fact that it's an unlicensed theme. That would be the big killer. Yeah. So it giving a good impression in terms of what the gameplay is is really what's going to move units on this. it's essentially a single level layout there is that punny press in the center of the play field which is guarded by a drop target and that actually kind of feeds a tube shot and you can kind of see that in the flyer the tube is somewhat obfuscated by the upper right polaroid looking thing explaining the skill shots but but a lot of stand-ups so you can kind of see that they They went mechanically with relatively simple structure, which for a first game experience I think makes a lot of sense. I'm normally quite fine with stand-ups. I would say that this game just is really heavy in terms of the quantity of them. What I like about stand-ups is it can keep the game fast, whereas drop targets can really slow a game down. I think, even though I know it wasn't his original intention, I think Steve Ritchie's firepower is better for the fact that it has stand-ups in the center. because right compared to the the drop the drop target conversions that some people have done and yeah the drops i think the conversion is a cool idea but it would make the game easier so and i think i could see both the arguments with firepower like some people be like that game is so brutal it needs to be made easier and then there may be others are like you know what if you want to just shoot orbits and stuff it's already for an early 80s game relatively controllable so So maybe we feel better about actually keeping it harder by making those stand-ups, which are very important if you want to go for multiball, making them dangerous. So overall, I mean they really emphasized in some of their video materials some of the stuff that they're doing about like how they painted the toys and the type of wood that they're using. I don't think most of that stuff is going to mean a lot to a lot of initial buyers. it fits very much i think in the old pinball theme of when you see the flyers and they kind of targeted a coin op and they kind of emphasize any new thing or any different thing that was being done because you're trying to you know point out something yeah i got to point out features but really what i think is going to come down to are are the rules and um and the layout that implements them which again the little tube shot uh punny factory thing uh i'm i'm curious about that drop target does appear angled to me, so it doesn't look like it's going to be like an instant galactic tank force drain fest. It looks like it's supposed to bounce back to the flipper. So that could be well implemented. I'll need to, when I hear about a good gameplay stream, I'll need to go and check that out. And then it's got Very Target, which I do like Very Target. Very Target's cool. I love the Very Target on Super Orbit. I love the Very Target on Silver Slugger. Very Target on Buck Rogers is straight up the middle which makes it suck but that one's a weird one too because they got a ball in the very target like behind it it's weird it's a whole it's not a good design quite frankly um see i recall lots of times hitting the very target in silver slugger it's just it's always fun i always and this one's placement reminds me of silver sluggers place so you know i this this layout may work um as a single level we've seen an increase in single levels coming out lately um reaction has been like pulp fiction pretty pretty much single level pretty well received i mean he's got subway and stuff and stuff going on in the back pretty well received kelts we both played it not the but this doesn't do that where kelts has a really short play field because it's got like the whole silver ball mania slash space invaders thing with a horseshoe up front and then there's like an upper section and so it's segregated this feels more traditional in the like what we'd think of a normal before ramps came about where it's sort of the whole play field is a single level. It's not really carved up into chunks in that same way. So I think this has maybe some more potential than that on the layout. I don't know yet on the rules, though. We'll just have to see with it. It looks interesting. I know some people will be massively turned off by the very fact that it's nothing but puns. do you think some people might be like you know what i love dad jokes and so i'm gonna i think it's going to be polarizing when it'll depend upon how what the call outs are and how much it it'll how well it all works together some people will hate it some people will love it uh based upon that alone yeah i um i mean i don't think it'll be as polarizing as say toy story 4 in the sense that no one came in expecting anything in particular because it's original theme. But you're right. There will be some people that will probably be like, if it's too cringey, maybe stay away. I think one of the things they focused on is that the goal when you play is to put together 50 puns, and they have a few hundred to be able to build from. So ideally it wouldn't be too samey would be my initial thought. I think the biggest issue, and I didn't put it in our internal notes, But my understanding is this is going to be priced at the same as a Stern Pro. Of course it is. Which, in a way, I'm not surprised because we've seen that out of basically everyone. The last quote-unquote major game that was under a Stern Pro was Homepense Thunderbirds, which it was a few hundred less. And it, I mean, we know what the reputation, you know, it didn't rock the world. Let's put it that way. At this point, something coming out priced at a Stern Pro, I'm actually happy with. because it means they're not dropping it at $12,000 when it looks like a game that should be priced like a Stern Pro. It's just, since it's not a license, since it's not got the – I get it because they don't have the industrial scale of Stern, but they also don't have a reputation on quality because it's their first game. Right. No license to move the needle. So I do think that's really going to hurt their total quantity of sales. I think their biggest angle – and maybe they're planning to exploit this. I don't know. is it's a Canadian company.
    15:00
    Do what HomePen tried to do and what I think Haggis successfully did with Keltz, which was, what, I don't know, 150 units or whatever, but focus on the local market and try and get kind of that rally around the flag thing going on and get the Canadians to be like, you know what? We want to see you do well because you're a Canadian company in a market dominated by the Americans and see about getting that local support. I mean, if I were giving free advice, which, of course, is what we do on a podcast, would be to turn to some of – there are some really high-level Canadian pinball streamers, like the pinballers, for example. Turn to them for some more gameplay.
    15:41
    So that way you know you've got – I don't remember who they used for their gameplay reveal, but use someone that's got an established high-quality stream, not so much for their following, but more so because they know how to do good output. But do that, work with some of the other big, maybe bring in some of the big Canadian competitors to try and play the game out and just sort of talk about it, shoot the breeze while going over it. You know, kind of get it like that. And that would maybe be a good angle for this because I don't think they're expecting to sell 1,000 units of this. So if the goal is to turn out 100 or 200 units and then move on to the next game, which is also unlicensed because they do have it. I don't have the link in the show notes to it, but they reveal the trailer for Elements, which is their next game. And that's sort of the route they're going. It's going to have to be like the quality is there. The rules are there.
    16:32
    You've got to sell the value proposition. So I think the initial thing is just to get people to come in and say, you know what, this isn't a cosmic carnival. This is a good game. That could be an issue for them. They have an unlicensed game called Elements being worked on, and there's a Pixar movie called Elements about to drop. you know setting aside confusion angles I would assume I guess technically the Pixar movie is elemental so they'll probably do it well in either instance a generic word like that I don't think there's any I don't think Pixar could successfully litigate I'm not saying they wouldn't try I was going to say Katy Perry sued because of her name Katy yeah but she didn't win so that's the thing I think there's a standing And again, it gets weird because this would be international because Pinball Adventures is in Canada. But generally speaking, and again, I'm not attorney. Anything you hear about me say about the law on this podcast will not be taken as legal advice. My understanding is there, at least in the U.S., are standing principles on things like trademarks and stuff where you can't go about and trademark common names. Like elements, when there's the periodic table of element, it's like you can't have the word the and take that. You can't have the word pie or cake and take that. Sorry, the band Cake. Your disco lemonade might not be as safe as you thought. So that was my point. Makes sense. Okay. Moving on. You know, we had – we rumor cornered last time about a new pinball company, unknown pinball companies. There's much speculation. I saw Nap Arcade ran a little article, even referenced our podcast rumor corner. Bear in mind, everyone, rumor corner, is there to rumor-tane you? I cannot vouch for the veracity of any particular rumors. They might be wholesale lies. We don't know. Think of it as fantastical entertainment because that's all it's meant to be. But back into the world of reality, because we're not in a rumor corner yet, is there is a new pinball company launching in Florida called Tilt Bob Pinball. Tilt Bob is all one word, but with a capital T, capital B, at least as I wrote it, which surely is right. I do have a link in the show notes to an article that Nap Arcade has about Tote Bob Pinball.
    18:47
    Not a lot to say yet. They're not revealing anything really other than apparently there are shirts made that have said the name of the company for a while now. So it's not like brand, brand spanking new, but they haven't revealed what they're working on yet. Other than what I can tell you is the company, it's by the guy who made the homebrew Elf. oh yeah I remember when that was big so and what he's indicated is they are working on an original theme an original game they also have another potential license for a pin that I guess would maybe be the second pin but it not the first pin But that potential license has been confirmed to not be Elf So not a whole lot of detail Right. But there you go. There's a new company out of Florida coming about. So we got them and we got, of course, Pinball Ventures. Looks like they're about to go ahead and get their games moving actually for sale. So let's go to a more established company for our third piece of news. And that would be Chicago Gaming Company. you uh you you know the issues with you we've talked about the the toppers the topper cactus canyon remake yeah and the the delays that have happened on the le's and such yet we've covered ccr quite extensively um one of the pieces that we haven't talked about very much is the expanded code now for those that don't remember because it gets a little confusing because there's kind of two different things going on so cactus canyon the original game which we've played several times. Many times. That code was never actually finished. That game was basically done while they were trying to get Pinball 2000 ready to go. And so they only built, it was their last traditional non-Pinball 2000 game, they being Williams WMS. And they didn't actually get the code as far along as it would have been for the 90s. They didn't fully finish it. So, all of the CCR games come with a completed version of the 90s code. That's done and that's with everything. Everyone who I believe has the option for additional money with their CCR to buy an expanded code set. Now originally that plan was Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharp were going to work on that code. Lyman Sheets has since passed away. So Josh Sharp has shared information. I do have a link again to NAP Arcade. He has an article over there and so it's in the show notes for those of you that want to read more on this but so the outline of the rules is done like josh and lyman had been working on that outline but like the code they the coding wasn't there right like so the programming of the rules not to mention i believe the article also notes like the new animations and stuff none of that is ready and so So the report is this expanded code has not been abandoned as an idea. They are still going to do it. It's not remotely near ready. Like it ain't going to be 2023 remotely near ready. So this is very much a, hey, we know some of you paid more money specifically to get this code. We're just letting you know that we remember you, but don't hold your breath. Now, I don't think that I think this is where I should have researched it better, But I'm pretty sure when they announced it – because at first I was going to say I thought this was only for the LEs. But then I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm thinking of the Fathom Revisited Mermaid Editions are the only ones with the expanded code that Martin Roberts did. With this, it's a later they can pay to buy it. So I don't think anyone's out any money. I think what they ended up – and someone can email if I'm incorrect. But for the time being, say, Chicago Gaming said there will be expanded code because they didn't announce the price. and everyone was like well how much more is it going to be to get the expanded code and there was a lot of talk that there was going to be a physical component to the expanded code now and the thinking may be more along the lines of not like a topper which of course the LDS and SE pluses have a topper only those do but like when medieval madness when they did the remake of medieval madness I think there was like a physical thing that you could put in to the device that would allow you to have more than one the generic monocolor DMD. Yeah. When that went like there was like a stick or a card or something. So maybe that's what was meant. Regardless, we don't know how much the code would be. But I believe it was going to be just you'll get to buy it later. I so so that's the news. So that's what they're saying. I, you know, since we give opinions here, in my opinion, even though this assurance has been given by Josh Sharp, I remain skeptical that this will come out. it sounds so, so far behind. And they're having so many issues and they've got a new game coming at the end of the year.
    23:37
    It definitely, it is like back side burner at this point. I, I'm not sure. And it's so tough to say, I'm not sure of the value of doing it. I guess it's kind of where if, you know, if no money's been taken, no one, I, I understand that some buyers would be upset because they perhaps got CCR because they were wanting the expanded code. But, I mean, there's been a lot of extenuating circumstances. When they did that, when people were expecting expanded code, they also expected that Lyman Sheets was going to program it. Right. And he's not going to program it anymore. And I don't really know how – it gets so weird with – it's not clear how much of the final set is going to be his ideas anyway. Okay, I get that there's an outline, but how detailed is that outline?
    24:31
    How many people were getting it because they wanted Lyman code? And it's not going to really be Lyman code at this point. It's going to have some of his ideas in it at best. And I'm not saying that because Lyman has passed that you shouldn't do it. I think it's perfectly fine to do it. To me, it's the economics of it. It's like, how many more are you really selling?
    24:53
    It's going to be another year plus to get it. You've got Pulp Fiction. I know Josh Sharp is involved with Pulp Fiction. There's a lot of hype about that game. It was very well received. And they're supposed to start building those in Q3, which is still a ways out. we're just now you know we've only recently entered into q2 so i and i know a lot of people that are already like and again cgc is saying q3 hobbyists are going i'm going to be shocked if this is out at 2023 at all oh yeah and that's because chicago gamey's reputation is they can't put anything out on time kind of like pretty much almost all pen vault companies but um but ever Ever since really medieval madness – oh, my gosh. I'm saying it wrong. Ever since Monster Bash. That was the one where there was – the first one I remember of those where there were these – like everyone knew Monster Bash was coming out. They weren't confirming it, and it was taking forever. Right. When it came out, people loved it. Yes. Because it was like, whoa, look at this light show. Whoa, look at this display. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Everyone was like, brah, this is incredible. Like they always respond to with CGC stuff. But yeah, so anyway, they say they're still working on it. I yeah, as vague as the descriptions of everything was, I wonder if this priority will change over time. But again, this is just me asking questions. They're saying it's going to happen. I'm just asking questions here. Yeah, I'm sorry. Ask nice questions, fair questions. But speaking of things that are nice and fair, this is kind of not relevant to me. I'm going to talk a little bit about Humber. I normally don't. We don't normally cover homebrew. Not really. I'm trying to think. I think maybe I've had a couple of questions, usually maybe email asking. That's not very often. Asking why we don't do more on homebrew. The answer is because it's not commercial. It's basically irrelevant to most people. That's why I don't cover it unless we play it. Right. So you play Battletech at Texas Pinball, so you have an opinion on it, so you talk about it. I never played Elf. So I'm not going to say anything about it because you can't buy it. And so there's not like it's not it's not news. And if I don't have experience on it, I can't talk about like my experience. Right. What do I have? What do I have left to discuss? There's like no commercial angle to it and I don't have a personal angle to it. So I'm just like I'm devoid of having anything meaningful to say.
    27:23
    Unless I care about theme. And that's why I'm going to bring this. So you don't care about Elf? I don't. I've seen it like twice and I don't care about that. You've seen it more than I have then. Yeah, okay. I know some people love that movie. It was okay. No, it's fine. It wasn't cringy to me, but I – It's not my Christmas movie. The only Christmas movie I would ever really imagine having as a pinball machine in my collection would be Die Hard and that's about it. So anyway, this is one we talked about long ago when Overwatch was at its peak of popularity. Overwatch. Well, I think – I knew we had an episode. I think it was – I don't know which one because I got asked. It was a long time ago. I think we've touched on it a few times. There was an episode we did at one point where someone had emailed us asking us about video game themes, and maybe that was the one where we went and really broke down ideas on how we would do this game because Tony played Overwatch when it came out. I started about a year later. Tony doesn't play anymore. I stopped and then started back up with Overwatch 2, and I play Overwatch 2 pretty much every day, maybe one to three games to get my little dailies in. You got two daily blues. Get my little dailies in. But you know what?
    28:42
    I enjoy the idea of a hero shooter, and then when people occasionally – I don't see as much direct toxicity as I did in Overwatch 1 on the rare i only ever had one time someone say kill myself and i took great joy in uh reporting them immediately yeah because that uh that gives me joy i like to punish people that are nasty now they say like tank diff i'm like okay yeah i did get tanked so that's fair i'm not proud of it that's fair if i if i really did get deaf and sometimes i do because sometimes you're like what why am i playing against the smurf holy crap they are countering every they like know my every move then i report them for cheating because i've decided that they can't be that good they can't The biggest thing on console gaming, as an aside, is to watch the replays on widows that are getting tons of headshots. That's conceivable on PC.
    29:30
    Watching the replays on console, I'm not thinking it's a cheat. I'm thinking it's a mouse, which is also against the rules. Because on console, we have aim assist. Right. Because we don't have mice. It's like little children trying to do their, like, it's like trying to aim. It's the reason why we don't like widows and genjis and consoles because they can't aim because we turn around like tank turrets because that's how a controller is. Right. So anyway, so just a different environment. But anyway, so there is an episode of a of a new pinball podcast called Pinball Innovators and Makers Podcast. Their fifth episode is which is titled A Family Affair. It's actually about a family who are making an overwatch pinball homebrew. I just thought it was interesting so I wanted to point out I do have a link in the show notes to the episode if people want to go and listen to the podcast but I included for an internal note just a you can see they're not like it's early in the process their pin side page thread is only two pages long so far but you can see like it almost with the photo I gave you it almost feels like they've themed it all around a diva funko pop they're kind of going from there but because it covers video games one that we both know and pinball a game we both know i thought it was really interesting that because as popular as overwatch was and to be fair uh overwatch league i guess just started this weekend i i tuned into the stream uh on my pc yesterday and there were like 80 000 people watching it on youtube uh it's youtube not twitch so it's not a bunch of skin drops so so it's like okay uh i mean there's still and overwatch 2 i believed it very well for blizzard as you would expect it was three years flight um it still doesn't have a single player that we were promised which is i was some part i was really looking forward to but um you know it's uh i just thought what are your thoughts i mean there's not a lot to evaluate there's not a lot they've gone with some i think overwatch is a great idea for a video game themed pinball machine i i i think it it offers a lot of possibilities for ways to program and code. So I think that it's definitely a good game for it. Let's say, I doubt that they listened to the show, but let's pretend that they did, and they were like, Tony, maybe Dennis, but Tony, we have our D.Va in the middle of this game. We've got a couple of ramps. We've got a Lucio in the back right.
    31:57
    We need some ideas on things that should, like either rules or where we should integrate famous call-outs from the game. I tell them how to make the game good I don't know how to make the game good where would they put in if I knew how to make the game good I would be designing games where would that go where would it go tell them do it schmowg I would definitely anytime you can get Lucio to drop the beat is find a reason for it. And for me, if you throw together your homebrew and you use an apron button, it would be perfect because I would love just smack that button big as crap to drop the beat.
    32:50
    I played a lot of Junkrat and a lot of Lucio back in the day. I really love Lucio. So anything that primaries that would be good. And I can think of a lot of fun things you could do based upon the whole ultimate system, different bonuses and abilities that you build up ultimates for different characters. And then I just think the big thing is you need to have a button, like a separate button to activate it. Just whether, you know, it's like the missile buttons that you used to have or an extra button somewhere. I like the apron button where it's right in the middle where you can just slap that thing. But I think that would be a very good thing to have for anything that involves any of the big ultimates.
    33:44
    Yeah, I think there's so many ways because there's so many characters that you could take the rules. And I'd need to know more about like are we picking a character at the start or anything like that before I could go too much. So I'm mostly going to think in terms of like call-outs and elements. And I like a lot of the ideas Tony has shared. Some of this stuff is going to be obvious. So in my mind, so for example, if ball save is activated, mercy saying heroes never die needs to be done. And on maybe 1% of the instances, you should do her witch version and have her say my servants never die instead just for a nice little Easter egg call out. But that would basically be when the ball is brought back into play for the ball save. I actually saw someone on Pinside say they thought she should do that call out when you earn extra ball. That is the wrong answer. it needs to be when you're saved because that is what it the character is doing getting the added extra again like getting an add a ball or excuse me getting an ad you know getting your your extra ball added in uh probably yeah there might be another mercy call out that you want to you want to go ahead and and use uh maybe a cheeky one like i'm not a miracle worker you know but yet she did work a miracle which is the irony right of her um i i i know it wouldn't really fit but i i i would love for uh in a multi-ball if you get an add a ball to a multi-ball for the whole bob get in there oh yeah no it could yeah that would be that'd be interesting yeah it could be because i mean they've got the target with the divas obviously going to be a big focus because they must really love diva is my assumption because i've got like everything is centered around the diva funko pop so i'm assuming they've got them well i don't think that's even the funko is it i thought that's the actual toy because that's the actual lucy toy in the back and the actual tracer toy and maybe i didn't hear it right i thought they said this was the big diva funko it could be the big one okay yeah where she's in it and you can like yeah i don't know yeah it could be i don't have that one okay so uh i'm assuming they've got to nerf this multi-ball and if they don't, then they need to. So once you get the three balls locked or whatever, D.Va needs to say, nerf this, and the balls come out into play. And I think you could allow just assuming Ashe is on her team, so Bob, get in there for an add-a-ball during that multi-ball would be good. Another idea would be maybe have the ability to light a 2x multiplier on a single shot. Some games do that. That'll be the Junkrat Trap.
    36:17
    And then when you go to your second ball or whatever, a variety of the coming out of spawn call-outs like Junkrat. Oh, yeah. I'll keep out this until I run out of limbs. He doesn't sound like that, but that's the best I can do. Yeah, so little things like that.
    36:34
    Maybe you could activate a, I don't know if they're going to do like a physical shield thing between the flippers pop-up, kind of like a space station or space. I like them. I like the physical shields. Do something like that. You could do a lot of Reinhardt call-outs involved with that. like when it pops up get behind me precision german engineering things like that so those could be those could be good maybe if you drain the ball reaper could just say die die die because you died i don't know he's such an edgelord maybe keep him out of the game outright i'm not sure i would be okay with that yeah i like playing him sometimes but he's a little too he's a little too cringe um anyway so there is an overwatch someone make sure that it gets good so then it can be made into a fun game. Yeah. They can start their own pinball company after they do it, and maybe they can get licensed. Mm-hmm.
    37:24
    That's right. Sure. But will it be with Microsoft? We'll be getting to that in a little bit. But before that, Tony, we have one last part of the pinball segment, and that is Rumor Corner.
    37:36
    Rumor Corner. Dennis Criswell's got the news before Napa K.
    37:50
    Is that right, Tony? Yeah. Okay, so on this episode's Rumor Corner, there's been information floating around from Pedretti Gaming. They, you know, Funhaus 2.0 kit. They've got another 2.0 kit coming out this week, I guess. They're announcing it. Oh, the speculation. Speculation out there is all over the place. I think Nap Arcade has an article that's looking at a bunch of numbers on games and all that, like old games, like which one would make the most sense commercially to do. Okay. I have heard, and again, this is Rumor Corner. I can't confirm this is fact. It may be a total lie. We don't know. I've heard it's Whirlwind. Oh, I like Whirlwind. See? And that was my reaction when I heard this rumor. I was like, you know what? I know Whirlwind wasn't like the most sold System 11. but it a really popular game people have really tried to take care of them And it not perfect like any system It not perfect on the rules so definitely could use a 2 treatment
    38:56
    So you like it. I like it. I think it's a great idea. I would be very happy with it. Well, I would actually. I hope this. I don't normally care much one way or another what happens with rumors. I kind of hope this one's true and I don't have a whirlwind. It would be neat to see. Right. So I'm a rumor change. It would give you a reason to get a whirlwind. It would. So you would have to remove something from your collection to replace it with whirlwind. That's true. Well, did it rumor-tane you? It did. Excellent. Good. We finally had a clear rumor-taning rumor for once. Now we've got to go into some more facts, though, and that is into video games. and on the last episode, we reached out to all of you listeners, faithful listeners, loyal listeners, courageous listeners, brave listeners. I don't know. I'm using adjectives that aren't really applicable in what I'm about to talk about.
    39:48
    And we had... Because, yeah, why do you have to be brave to listen? That didn't make any sense. Well, and you don't have to be brave to do this, but, well, kind of do because you're putting yourself out there. Now, what am I talking about? On the last episode, we put out a call to you all saying hey we had another listener who very kindly gave us steam codes a bunch i mean i didn't emphasize this enough because i had i had several emails like do you have any of these left i'd be interested let me let me emphasize it differently tony and i have a lot of steam codes we have a lot left okay a lot so don't worry about it um so what we did though is we said hey if you're willing to install whatever the steam game is and review it for us we'll let you have a steam code and i think i sent out like four maybe five codes and one person's actually already got their review back to us but what i want to go ahead and note is we have a lot of codes so if people still are interested in reviewing please email eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com and if you have already gotten a code once you email in your review to us you can ask for another code and we'll let you review it. This is great. We're crowdsourcing out the reviews. We're crowdsourcing reviews. You guys are going to get a free game out of it and it's sort of like win-win. So we get to use this very generous gift in a way that we share with all the listeners that are interested in it and then we get content. So that's win-win. So I want to thank Matt R. He was not the first person to ask for a code but he was the first person to get us a review back and I'm going to go ahead and read that now. um so matt writes i received perfect a vr experience which is this is now dennis's an aside i didn't realize these were going to possibly include vr so i guess if you got stuck with a vr game you don't know what to say to us because you don't have vr stuff let me know it's a different code yeah and you obviously you're stuck that's the part that that's that is the problem with having random it's random we don't know what they are we don't know it's just a list of codes we don't know but we lucked out with we lucked out with Matt because he's got gear. So continuing on with the email. Parenthetical citation. I have not used SteamVR before with my Oculus Quest 2, so this was a learning experience all on its own. After a few downloads, the journey began. In parenthetical citation. What is Perfect? Perfect is a relaxation sim that allows you to escape to the peace and quiet of an empty beach, the snowy Arctic, or a mountain lake. During the day, you can watch the trees swaying, the snow falling, or a school of fish swirling in the water. At night, you can stare at the moon, and the northern lights are looked deeply into a fire crackling nearby. From time to time, you might see a hang glider taking flight or a shooting star crossing the sky. You can choose day or night for each of these three environments, and each location has three vantage points to visit. Some spots have a campfire, Some are down by the water. Each place has a few interactables, such as snowballs, sticks, rocks, or a lantern. You can pick up and throw all of these items, and the sticks will light on fire for a short period. But that's about it. While I was tethered to my PC and could not move very far, other reviewers mentioned that only a small space can be explored before a boundary pops up anyway.
    43:06
    The simulation is visually stunning, at first. The boulders are mossy. The sun casts down shadows of palm leaves onto the sand, and that hot air balloon really stands out. Trees and mountains in the distance are static, though, and a fiery stick looks video gamey up close. The splashes and ripples the rocks make when you throw them into the water aren't quite perfect, either. I didn't notice any sun or moon movement or a rolling tide, something which you might think would be included here. You will hear a short list of expected sounds across the different environments, like wolves howling in the distance, birds and crickets chirping, and a gentle breeze blowing. You can also turn on a small radio with about ten very mellow soundtracks to listen to. Other reviewers noted that the swishing sound when you throw something is comically out of place. Since the goal of Perfect is to help you relax, there's not much to actually do. You can't feed the fish, ride the hot air balloon, take the boats out on the water, or explore the nearby paths and tents. There are some good moments, though, like holding a lit lantern and watching three moths flutter around and land on it. Excuse me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm trying really hard. I'm trying.
    44:22
    Continuing. Parenthetical. Perfect was developed with the HTC Vive in mind, and I had some difficulty figuring out the controls for my Oculus Quest. The loading screen does provide one detail at a time about the experience, but it took me at least an hour before I figured out exactly how picking up objects worked. How to teleport to the other vantage points was also not intuitive for me. End parenthetical. While I see more to this experience than you can get in just ten minutes, Perfect does not offer a robust package. it is more like a good start. Unless what I've described is exactly what you are looking for, I could only recommend it at a discount for the short time you might spend with it. Someone on Steam Reviews recommended Nature Treks VR instead, which does look promising and is at the same price of $9.99.
    45:14
    Thank you again, Matt, for the very detailed review. Apologies for my lack. Tony found some of the elements quite comedic, and I held it together well. and then later i was just thinking back to the you you can you you can throw a lantern you can i just wanted to throw a lantern and light tents on fire i also like the uh well i like the part about how it's supposed to help you relax so you can't so there's a lot you can't do including feeding fish which i thought was going to be quite relaxing but Apparently, it's just too much effort.
    45:51
    It's not chill enough. So, overall, this appears to have received a do not recommend outside of discount. So, perfect. I would have named this review perfect is imperfect. Tony, what's... It's the big news. It's the news that we'll be bringing more likely than not. most of this conversation we've been having for the last year towards an end, the U.K.'s Competition and Markets Authority has denied the Microsoft Activision merger.
    46:26
    And they believe that it is – they're so tightly entwined that they will not – that this merger banning will be a global banning just from the U.K. saying no because they're so tightly entwined they won't be able to separate it. Microsoft is appealing. The appeal is going to take a while. They're talking the typical for a normal appeal that doesn't require too much getting in deep. They're talking nine months.
    47:01
    And then all the appeal, if the appeal is upheld, the only thing that will come from that being upheld is that it will be sent back to the CMA to be talked about again. So we're looking at a bare minimum of a year before we hear anything else about it from the UK, and that's if they win the appeal.
    47:21
    So it's a pretty safe bet that even if the US and EU comes forward and says that it's okay, this is still a blocked deal, at least for now. The core of it that they blocked on was because of cloud gaming, actually It had nothing to do with console competition And everything with the emerging cloud gaming scene The CMA was concerned that Microsoft would find it commercially beneficial To make Activision's games exclusive to its own cloud gaming service They believe that letting Microsoft have such a strong position in the cloud gaming market as it begins would risk undermining innovation in the growing market.
    48:11
    The CMA carefully considered whether the benefit of having Activision's content available on Game Pass outweighed the harm that the merger would cause to competition in cloud gaming in the UK. The CMA found that this new payment option, while beneficial to some customers, would not outweigh the overall harm to competition and ultimately to UK gamers arising from this merger, particularly given the incentive from Microsoft to increase the cost of a Game Pass subscription post-merger to reflect the addition of Activision's valuable games.
    48:40
    Martin Coleman, chair of the independent panel, stated that the CMA's decision was a win for the UK, protecting competition in an emerging and exciting cloud gaming market. Microsoft already enjoys a powerful position and head start over other competitors in cloud gaming, and this deal would strengthen that advantage, giving it the ability to undermine new and innovative competitors. Microsoft engaged constructively with us to try and address these issues, and we are grateful for that, but their proposals were not effective to remedy our concerns and would have replaced competition with ineffective regulation in a new and dynamic market. Cloud gaming needs a free competitive market to drive innovation and choice. that is best achieved by allowing the current competitive dynamics in cloud gaming to continue to do their job.
    49:33
    So Microsoft President Brad Smith has responded that this is probably the darkest day in our four decades in Britain. It does more than shake our confidence in the future of the opportunity to grow a technology business in Britain than we've ever confronted before. There's a clear message here. The European Union is a more attractive place to start a business than the United Kingdom.
    49:57
    The English Channel has never seemed wider. While the EU and UK regulators have not made their deal yet,
    50:06
    CMA has insisted that this decision means it cannot go forward globally. Activision is intertwined through different markets. It can't be separated for the UK, so this decision blocks the deal from happening globally. Activision has responded that it is a disservice to UK citizens who face increasingly dire economic prospects the CMA's reports contradicts the ambitions of the UK to become an attractive country to build technology business we will work aggressively with Microsoft to reverse this on appeal the report's conclusions are a disservice to UK citizens who face increasingly dire economic prospects we will reassess our growth plans for the UK global innovators large and small will take note of that Despite all of its rhetoric, the U.K. is clearly closed for business.
    50:54
    Microsoft has also said that the decision may have an impact on its U.K. investments, and they've called on the U.K. to look hard at the role of the CMA and its regulatory structure. People are shocked, people are disappointed, and people's confidence in technology in the U.K. has been severely shaken. so basically microsoft and activision came out swinging hard on the uk uh that they they are they did not pull any punches in their thoughts on that at all what do you think yeah um you know i it's interesting because i had always up while we've talked about this only really thought about the console competition aspects. And I do think the CMA has some fair points. Microsoft is ahead of their competitors on cloud gaming. They're between 60% and 70% of the market. I've seen numbers everywhere between 60% and 70% thrown out. And again, that's in part because Microsoft is a very diversified company, and they've poured billions of dollars into developing cloud, Just like even though Stadia is not around anymore, Google also has a very impressive cloud infrastructure because they're a very diversified company and they've poured a lot of assets into it. The thing is, again, I don't know all the nuances of everything that they've looked at. And part of this, I would say, is probably on Activision and Microsoft. Because I'm not – though it sounds like they were in discussions with CMA, it seems almost all of their eggs that we were hearing were in the why this is okay from a console competitive standpoint basket. So maybe they didn't spend enough time trying to articulate why this shouldn't be a problem from a cloud gaming front. Right. Now, part of that might be where I'm kind of at a – I get what CMA is saying. The thing is, like when we talk about consoles, like we're talking about market share because, you know, like if – do you sell more consoles because – and that's what they're looking at with the cloud in terms of having these additional properties. But like one of the things when it comes to, say, telecoms because that's a merger category that we're very familiar with in the U.S. It's always been like, okay, well, if Sprint and T-Mobile merge, it's about how many phones does that put under T-Mobile, and is that too many in the sense of how does that stack up versus how many are under Verizon, how many are under AT&T. and in this case, much like as it was even with the console argument, so Microsoft has 60% of the cloud gaming market, but buying Activision doesn't inherently give them a larger percentage because Activision isn't a cloud gaming thing. It's just IPs. It's IPs that Microsoft could, not just as easily, but Microsoft could develop new must-have IPs and it would be maybe it gets more people into Game Pass and maybe it doesn't, just like we don't know if people game pass Cloud of Duty or not. I mean, I'm sure that's what Microsoft, we know that that's where Microsoft is going with what they want, like what they'd want to do with the property. But with the deals to still have it physically available for, or digitally available, or however, for 10 years on these other platforms, I, you know, it's like, I just, It seems very speculative from CMA to be like, okay, well, we know these are popular, so we're worried that Microsoft's 60% share of cloud will go up.
    54:34
    But by how much? Are they 90% then, or is it 61%? Like what's the – and I don't – see, this is the challenge because you don't want the stifling of monopolies because it does – a lot of these things CMA pointed out are very concerning. Like you get so much control that you then jack the price up on your service. We've seen it before with entities that will lowball the get-in, put their competitors out of business, and then they raise the price. um but that being said it's also if you're if you're adhering to some level of free market principles you've got to let the market make some determinations and just saying okay well microsoft just can't buy like what did microsoft said let me ask sorry about my mic um let me give you a different hypothetical let's say microsoft said you know screw it okay we can't have Activision Blizzard. Let's buy EA instead. Is that okay? Is that small enough to make it okay? I don't think so. Based upon this, I would think that CMA would go against that as well. Like what's small enough? I just... So I get where some of their concerns are. A number of their concerns are valid concerns about the future of cloud. But it sounds like it's all really speculative Instead of just being the – normally when I see this, again, like with telecoms, we're talking about this is how many phones exist right now. How many companies will control how many phones? That's the question. Not this. What's Microsoft going to look like in 10 years on the cloud landscape because you let them have call of duty?
    56:19
    I don't – It seems very speculative. It seems different. It seems like they're really trying to forecast well beyond what we normally expect out of regulators, which are more concerned with the balance of power as it stands when the deal is done. And I'm not saying necessarily that they're wrong, but they seem to be doing it differently than every place else does it. And it's hard to know how this because we're so early in the cloud gaming kind of thing. It's hard to know how it's going to expand and work in the end. It's hard to know what it's going to look like. And I don't think, like you said, that adding Activision Blizzard brings up Microsoft that much. Because it's not like they're adding an already large cap of something. It's not like Microsoft has 60% and Activision has 20%. All it's doing is taking what Microsoft has and making it more interesting because it's got the extra game choices. but even there, Xbox sales are pretty much non-existent at this point. They've dropped severely, while Sony's still posting record-breaking sales for PlayStations.
    57:38
    I don't know. This is not the argument I expected to see on this, and I'm not sold that it's necessarily a correct argument, but I can definitely understand where they're coming from on this one.
    57:52
    Yeah, it's just, I don't know. It's the part where Martin Coleman with the CMA that you had read where he'd said that Microsoft already enjoys a powerful position and a head start over other competitors in cloud gaming and this deal would strengthen that advantage giving it the ability to undermine new and innovative competitors And I not entirely clear on how this impacts the ability for others to spool up their cloud gaming That seems to be a different barrier to me. Right. That companies like Nintendo and Sony don't want to invest billions of dollars developing cloud. and are you not empowering – are you not falsely propping up their shares of whatever cloud gaming shares they have? Since we're keeping this exclusive to cloud gaming now.
    58:39
    By not allowing this. And again, he had continued. He said Microsoft had engaged with them to try and address the issues. But his – what was the quote? Their proposals were not effective to remedy our concerns and would have replaced competition with ineffective regulation in a new and dynamic market. And he also followed with saying cloud gaming needs a free competitive market to drive innovation and choice, but apparently not a competitive enough market where anyone who is already established in clouds is allowed to buy new IPs.
    59:13
    Yeah. This is always an interesting thing with business because they are exercising a regulatory authority to deny the free market its ability. because in a broken free market, you end up with – because that's the thing. This is why – sorry for those that may feel differently, but we all have different opinions. This is why laissez-faire doesn't work because you will end up with monopolies, which are inherently destructive to market dynamics. So you don't want monopolies because they're actually a corruption of the free market and left to their own devices without any regulation. They can easily happen. That being said, 60% is a lot, but it's not. I mean, what would the UK's response to be if Stern Pinball had to ask them for permission to do Stranger Things Pinball? Well, we're afraid that your IP would give you more pinball manufacturing market share because it's such a popular license, and you're already over 80% of the pinball market, so I guess you can't have this IP because, in theory, it might actually let you sell more machines. That's what it seems like to me. It does. And that's the case. And in pinball, there's more of a dominant force than there is in video games. And again, that was them only focusing on the cloud side, which is an interesting vacuum to only look at it. Because again, as you noted, Microsoft as a gaming company, it's big, but it ain't number one. It ain't number two. And their cloud position isn't just the gaming side. They do other stuff in cloud that I think is getting lumped in with this because there's a lot of business cloud going on. A lot of the stuff they talked about is Microsoft Azure backend stuff that they've been developing for everything over the years and all their business stuff that they've got because they've moved to Office. It's completely cloud-based at this point and all of that. So this is very interesting. I did read – I haven't delved into this. I did read people report that no one has successfully reversed a CMA decision. No. Not fully. I've seen that there have been partial reversals. That being said, so there is the assumption that the appeal will fail based off of that. That being said, I'm assuming the CMA hasn't been around all that long, given that the UK's breakaway from the EU is relatively recent. Right. So that's probably part of the reason why they have such a stellar track record. I don't know if Microsoft and Activision can construct a good enough argument to satisfy – it depends what the appellate court thinks. Like they basically need to disagree fundamentally with the CMA's analysis. The reports I've read said that every reversal that has happened has been based 100% on a section of whatever ruling the CMA decided that the appellate court decided that they legally couldn't make that decision because that decision was legally protected somewhere else. Okay.
    62:19
    So it's entirely possible that this is just a – it's a done deal. It could be. And my understanding is, assuming, as you noted, and as the CMA noted, and I do think they're right here, yeah, if UK blocks this, this deal is dead. Right. There are too many legal aspects tied to the UK that these companies operate in already that it's not like if Brazil said no. Right. So given that, yeah, my understanding is if the deal falls apart, Microsoft has to pay Activision a $3 billion breakup fee. Yep. And then Activision – Microsoft will be fine as a company. I mean, okay, they'll lose their $3 billion, and they'll be pissed at all this time they wasted. And Activision was relying on this, so I don't know what happens with Activision. I saw an interview with Bobby Kotick that mentioned that if it does fail after the $3 billion payout, Activision Blizzard will be setting on $18 billion cash.
    63:31
    And then he commented that they have a history of taking care of their... Employees? No. Investors. Oh, they'll probably just do big dividend payout? Probably. That would be my guess. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing – I do think it's interesting that through no fault of – if it fails, through absolutely no fault of Microsoft, Microsoft has to pay Activision $3 billion. I mean, that must have been just part of the deal they struck with them. And so I view that as kind of being on Microsoft because I'm assuming – I mean, they agreed to it. Right. So that is what it is. It is interesting. And Activision can exist, but it's not like it needed to be bought out for money reasons. It's more that they're so scandal-plagued. And I know gamers are divided on this, mostly Sony fanboys that wanted to see it fail and then everyone else who didn't care or wanted to see it change. A lot of people, a lot of Blizzard supporters wanted this to happen because they are basically convinced Microsoft would do a better job of running this than Bobby does. I agree with that. And that's why they want Microsoft to take it. It's not really about the Game Pass. It's more like either people are really upset with the harassment and everything else that's gone on with Activision or the more pragmatic gaming aspect of they just like venalify and crapify video games. And there's been plenty of reports that have come out of Blizzard talking about games that have come out and been very watered down, where there have been plenty of reports that come out and directly say, you know, management came down and said no to this that we were going to do, or Activision came in and said, no, you can't do that, or we weren't ready to release, and Activision and Bobby came down and said, this is the release date no matter what. And so, I mean, it's really interesting. Yeah, this might be the end of these particular discussions.
    65:40
    I'm curious if based off of this, depending, I mean, $3 billion, well, Microsoft can afford it. Right. It is a lot of money. It would be interesting to see if Microsoft and or Activision, after this, starts to unwind their legal ties to the UK to be punitive to them for this. And some of the reports out of Microsoft sound that way because there were points in discussions where they were talking about taking another look at their current dealing with the UK and whether the UK is a market that they're willing to be part of anymore. and so hypothetically they could try and de-spool their ties there and then try and strike a new deal in a few years to buy Activision. Maybe the share price will be more advantageous to them. I know Activision shares dropped on this news. Microsoft's actually went up. I will be interested to see because I know we're expecting the EU's decision on the 22nd of May, and the U.S.'s decision is expected in June. So it will be interesting if the EU and the U.S. say it's okay. Yeah, I don't know yet what happens. Do you have thoughts on what happens if they, because obviously the appeal won't be in yet from the CMA. The appeal won't be in yet. And even if the appeal comes in, all the appeal will do is make the CMA look at it again. I think that if the other two say it's okay, I think it's still broken. I don't think it can happen. I think they're right saying that it's not something that can be unwound just for the U.K., where there are separate companies in the U.K. And the only way I can think of that that would work to be okay globally but not in the U.K. would be just to no longer sell in the U.K., just black box the U.K. Yeah, and that's where I've – it seems so unlikely to me given the size of the market. But I have wondered, and again, I don't know the legal nuances of all of this, obviously, would be, could they say, OK, if they got EU and US approval, could they say, all right, what would we need to do to stay compliant with the is that in the UK? We can't do Game Pass, but we could still sell Call of Duty on disc and sell consoles. Could I would it have to be ever like Xbox just cannot be sold in the UK period? do they say okay we can't we can't sell cloud services through quote unquote the uk oh by the way here are the new uh compliant vpn tie-ins for xbox so you can go and buy through the u.s store your game pass and get your stuff right um or do they say okay for the time being we have to limit the whole thing or just game pass or just the activision part or whatever while they then move forward with decoupling their registered business aspects that they have in the UK. And then they say, okay, we no longer, quote-unquote, operate on UK soil anymore. We've decoupled successfully, and now we can sell as a foreign product to you because you don't actually have regulatory – China doesn't get regulatory authority over Boeing. Right. They could say Boeing's not allowed to sell here, but they don't get to come in and say, you can't build that plane. I think that – I don't know if they would do it. I think it's a possibility. They could do kind of like what we talked last episode has started happening in Russia by basically decoupling and pulling out of the U.K. and then having a third-party partner who sells games in the U.K. specifically. So it's not Game Pass. It's not any of that tie-in, but there's some third-party company that would still import their games, their systems, their stuff to the UK, but it would not be them at the top level. It would have to be a third-party workaround. Yeah, see, I don't know, because I don't know, honestly. I mean, Microsoft is a global corporation, but I just don't know how much would need to be separated. And it's work. And my assumption is it's probably more work than what their profit expectations from Activision are. But maybe it's not. I don't know how big they really are in the U.K. literally. Right. Like as employees and stuff. Right. And that's the question. And also, would the decoupling mean that they'd have to go so far as looking at decoupling Microsoft entirely, not just the gaming division, all of Microsoft?
    70:37
    Because those are going to be very different animals if it's decoupling the gaming system versus decoupling all of Microsoft. But I'm kind of given some of the statements. And again, some of this is probably just reactionary, and they were very angry. Right. But it is a big collaboration. Because the CMA had implied like days before they made the decision that they had softened their stance and that they were going to let it go, that it was going to go through.
    71:04
    All the articles and Microsoft and everybody thought that things had gotten to the point where they'd answered and they'd solved the stuff that the CMA had problems with and that it was going to go through. And then the CMA was like, nah. Yeah, I'm just – given the tone of the statement from Microsoft, there was a big emphasis that made it, to me, sound like they were saying, okay, the posture of the UK is such that our European operations will all be – we're going to look at moving them all just to the EU and race it all out of Brussels or whatever. And then you'll deal with your EU compacts to get all of our stuff and whatever. And we just can't operate in this weird post-Brexit environment that the UK has decided to sabotage itself into. Right. And the thing to think about is the UK is large, but it's not that big. It is not, I mean, just the population of the UK, it's 67 million. That's it.
    72:13
    And it's not 67 million Xbox gamers. It's not 67 million gamers. I mean, the population of the UK is 67 million people. and that is not that big compared to markets like the EU and the US.
    72:38
    Okay. Well, very interesting. Oh, this has had more twists and turns than I ever thought it would. I did not think that this was how it was. I thought if there was going to be a killer, it would come from the EU. I thought that's where it would come from I did not think that it would be The UK Which is surprising to me Yeah, we're looking The UK's population is Like comparable to South Korea It's half of Japan Well They still have a lot of influence continuing to talk about activision uh in a slightly different route um activision blizzards rally of monthly players uh that happened started last year with the release of modern warfare 2 and the release of overwatch 2 that accumulated with them looking at a total december player base of 111 million, it has tumbled. They're back down to 98 million by the end of March, which is similar to their numbers in September, just ahead of the Modern Warfare 2 launch. So the question will be, how's it going to hold or is it going to continue to drop? But it does seem like that the new players, the extra player interest from Modern Warfare 2 and Overwatch 2 have gone away and you're back to the standard player base.
    74:18
    Also, Diablo 4 due in June, so that could cause it to increase again. It's just going to be a question of how much, especially considering a lot of people remember the issues with Diablo 3 at release.
    74:37
    I've assumed that's why they've been doing so many betas, was to help try and smooth that out. Yeah, try and get some good word of mouth on it. And I've heard good word of mouth on it. I've heard really good word of mouth on it. You'll have to play it and let me know. I do love the Diablo games. I really do. But I have not played an Activision Blizzard game in a while. That's true. You might not be able to figure out how to play them anymore. One thing for sure, it was interesting. I never solved it. I need to look back into it. When I uninstalled the Blizzard from my computer, because I uninstalled the whole thing at one point, I received an email from them saying that my account had been banned for uninstalling. Oh. Ban Hammer. So I should probably try to reinstall and see what's going on with that just to see. And to get my stuff transferred over to Overwatch 2 in case I ever want to play Overwatch 2. because I have heard good things from you and others. My daughter played it a little bit.
    75:43
    She says it's okay, but the only biggest thing she's happy about is she hasn't been told to kill herself 437 times like she normally does. I report them when they say mean things. So the other things we have going, we talked a little bit already about Star Wars Jedi Survivor, how badly buggy the PC version is.
    76:08
    I don't know. I guess that was before we started. You told me before we started. Star Wars Jedi Survivor is out. The bug issues are severe. EA has announced that there's major patches coming over the next few weeks, but there has not been anything. General reports that it's basically unplayable for most people,
    76:29
    at least on the PC. The consoles are supposed to be not nearly as bad. Also, Sony has released the numbers for their PlayStation 5 console sales. They have passed 38 million units sold, with 6.3 million units sold in the last quarter, which just goes to show that if you make it so people can actually find the game and it's on shelves and it's purchasable, people will buy it. Yep. because they've had two quarters running of high sales since they finally were able to get them reliably on the shelves.
    77:07
    And that's what I have for video games today. Okay, well, we had quite a bit more episode content this time, so I'm sure no one will complain. But if they want to, they can email us, eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com. You can also go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast, or you can go to patreon.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast. Yep, we're available on Twitch, Twitter, and Instagram as Eclectic underscore Gamers. And until next time, my name is Dennis. I've been Tony. Goodbye. Bye.