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Straight Down The Middle: a pinball show Episode 3: This Month In Pinside

Straight Down the Middle·video·41m 57s·analyzed·Feb 14, 2017
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.028

TL;DR

Community discussion on retailer accountability and quality standards in pinball sales.

Summary

Greg Bone and Zach Sharpe discuss their entry into pinball collecting and recent Pinside community drama involving a retailer who sold an acid-damaged machine advertised as fully tested and working. They critique low-end retailers for poor quality control, inflated pricing, and lack of professionalism in customer service, arguing this harms community growth and retention of new players.

Key Claims

  • A retailer sold a pinball machine advertised as '100% working' and 'fully gone through and tested' that arrived with acid damage and non-working switches

    high confidence · Greg Bone and Zach Sharpe discussing a Pinside thread titled 'Buyer Beware' that was later deleted

  • Retailers should pull batteries from machines before shipping to prevent acid damage from occurring during transit

    high confidence · Greg and Zach discussing best practices for preparing machines for shipment

  • Greg purchased a machine from a retailer for $600-700 more than fair value due to lack of knowledge about pinball

    high confidence · Greg's personal account of early collecting experience

  • Some retailers price identical games inconsistently (e.g., Roller Games $3,000, The Shadow $2,800, Austin Powers $6,000) suggesting lack of market knowledge

    medium confidence · Greg recounting pricing anomalies observed at a retailer

  • Low-end retailers often have no knowledge of pinball game history, manufacturers, or release dates

    medium confidence · Greg's general observation about retailer competency levels

  • A 30-day warranty on pinball machines is impractical for customers who live far from the retailer since machines are typically shipped rather than delivered locally

    high confidence · Greg and Zach discussing warranty limitations

  • New players to pinball often fall in love with the hobby if their first experience is positive, but poor-quality or overpriced machines discourage continued participation

    high confidence · Greg and Zach discussing impact of retailer behavior on community growth

  • A retailer who acknowledges mistakes and fixes them would gain business and community respect rather than losing it

    medium confidence · Greg and Zach speculating about what could have happened if the retailer had handled the situation professionally

Notable Quotes

  • “And that's what kind of bugged my ass a little bit about that and other retailers... there's a lot of people who tout themselves as retailers... and they'll say that a game is overhauled or serviced. And overhauled or serviced means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.”

    Greg Bone@ 14:35 — Core critique of how 'serviced' and 'overhauled' are undefined terms used to justify premium pricing

  • “If you're going to get a healthy profit for things, clean up the damn games. Make sure they work fully. And if they don't, just put a little disclaimer on it.”

    Greg Bone@ 18:45 — Direct call for retailer accountability and transparency

  • “I drove all the way up here, and this is supposed to be a shop. I'm like, dude, what the hell is this? And so he tells me... take some wax to it, some compound, and just buff it out. Because it'll take about two hours.”

    Greg Bone@ 17:36 — Illustrates retailer asking customer to finish work on a machine sold as 'serviced'

  • “Pinball people should not do pinball people wrong. Let's just stop doing this shit.”

    Zach Sharpe@ 25:59 — Direct ethical call to the community about fair dealing

  • “It's like if you get one game, there's a high percentage that you're going to fall in love with pinball. If it breaks down a lot, you're not going to buy it.”

    Zach Sharpe@ 22:02 — Explains how poor retail experiences damage community retention

  • “You're not selling pinball machines. You're selling your product. You're selling your title, your company. You're selling your personality.”

Entities

Zach Sharpe MenypersonGreg BonepersonStraight Down the MiddleorganizationPinsideorganizationZanzibarorganizationLouisville Arcade Pinball ExpoeventJurassic ParkgameThe Wizard of Ozgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Low-end retailers using undefined terms like 'overhauled' and 'serviced' to justify premium pricing without delivering corresponding quality or work

    high · Greg: 'there's a lot of people who tout themselves as retailers... and they'll say that a game is overhauled or serviced. And overhauled or serviced means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.'

  • ?

    business_signal: Retailers failing to implement basic quality control (battery removal, playfield cleaning, flipper rebuilds) despite charging premium prices

    high · Greg notes retailers advertise 'overhauled' machines with visible dirt, non-functioning components, and acid damage without disclosure

  • ?

    community_signal: Poor retail experiences actively harm new player retention and community growth; negative first purchases discourage continued hobby participation

    high · Zach: 'If it breaks down a lot, you're not going to buy it... you're going to get discouraged like put as much in as you can... most people their first pin they're not going to drop five grand'

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinside 'Buyer Beware' thread documenting retailer dispute over acid-damaged machine sold as fully tested; thread deleted by OP after becoming contentious

    high · Greg and Zach directly reference a thread they read where customer received damaged machine from retailer with documented emails claiming full functionality

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball community is tight-knit with information traveling fast; retailers' poor behavior becomes known and damages reputation among informed buyers

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.126

0:00
Ladies and gentlemen you are watching Straight Down the Middle. Hey what's up guys this is Zach and Greg with Straight Down the Middle Pinball. This week's episode we're going to do this month in Pinside. We're going to talk about current events. There's not been a whole hell of a lot going on in Pinside right now. Yeah a few little things. thankfully so we'll discuss a little bit about a couple topics maybe some reveals that people are having and then we'll go into that yeah well you know first before we get into it I think this is something that for some reason interests me and I think a lot of people you know how people got into pinball what got you into it you know some some guys grew up with pinball machines in their basement you know their dad or parents somebody had them and everything but what what got you into pinball say like what did I think we're both a child of the 80s right? So back in the 90s, hell, we would have been, what, 10 or so, go to arcades, and there were pinball machines there. I wasn't, I was never really much into arcade stand-ups or anything, because I had Super Nintendo and Nintendo at home, and they just felt very similar to me. So when I went to the bowling alley or arcades, I would always flock toward pinball machines. One of the, I'm trying to think of some of the first ones, that's why I like Demolition Man. It was set up at a local bowling alley here and I just remember playing it and for God's sakes you're being lethal weapon that you like I will say it does have a soft spot in my heart because there was one set up at the local bowling alley well they were all over the place I can I can still remember the call outs and I swear to you I haven't maybe I've played it some of the shows but I haven't played that lethal weapon very much but that rings a bell every time I play it kind of takes me back so points for that but otherwise shit game so what brought you into I like pinball like her high school started hanging out buddy's house arcade there and I was like oh shit they still make pinball machines and there was a South Park people hate I still love I think it's really fun and then I went into dude I think it was Zanzibar I think it was I went to Zanzibar was on a conference in Louisville went to Zanzibar walked in there for you know I didn't looked at the reviews and there's good food which it doesn't it doesn't went in there, ate, and I was like, oh cool man, pinball machines, I'll play these. And then I saw The Wizard of Oz and I thought, holy shit, this is pinball now? And then I saw The Walking Dead and I thought, this is really cool too. And he had some of the newer stuff set up there and I played it. And then anything I do, I just research the hell out of. So that evening, I mean, I was on my phone and I was like, what's this place called? Pinside. This is interesting. Oh, I want to join this. So I started looking and I was like, people are crazy. $5,000 for a game on the machine? People are nuts. I don't have that kind of money.

Greg Bone@ 25:31 — Articulates the branding/reputation risk for retailers

  • “If they would have said, 'you know, I did make a mistake, it was a local mistake. Let me make this right.' What would it cost them? $300?”

    Zach Sharpe@ 26:52 — Demonstrates minimal cost to retailers to resolve disputes professionally

    • The Walking Deadgame
    Demolition Mangame
    Lethal Weapongame
    South Parkgame
    Star Trek: The Next Generationgame
    Bram Stoker's Draculagame
    The Shadowgame
    Johnny Pinball New Yorkgame
    Sweet Reevesgame
    Tommygame
    Roller Gamesgame
    Austin Powersgame
    Popeyegame

    high · Zach: 'especially in such a tight-knit community... People who do know pinball, it counts for a lot of their customers'

  • $

    market_signal: Inconsistent pricing by unknowledgeable retailers (same game model priced $600-$3,000 apart) suggesting poor market knowledge and exploitation of new buyers

    medium · Greg cites examples: Roller Games $3,000, The Shadow $2,800, Austin Powers $6,000, suggesting no pricing methodology

  • ?

    community_signal: Greg references defending another seller (Star Trek Next Generation with powder-coated purple cabinet) without being defensive or attacking critics, modeling appropriate business behavior

    medium · Greg: 'You didn't attack people... You never defensive... If somebody came at me with heat on a video show I'm not going to come back at them'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Greg's perception of retailers shifted from trust (first purchase overpaid but clean) to skepticism (second purchase 'overhauled' but dirty), reducing likelihood of repeat business

    high · Greg explicitly contrasts positive first experience with disappointing second experience, leading to discussion of staying away from low-end retailers

    • 2:59
    So that's kind of how I got into it. My first machine was a Jurassic Park. I found it at, it was a turd. I found it at one of the local arcades here. There was literally three games. None of them really worked very well. The T-Rex actually picked up the ball, hot damn. But I played Jurassic Park and I offered the operator there some money and he had me he took me for too much for Jurassic Park but I got it back home and of course it's a data east so I had to start fixing it um every 20 times I played it so I learned how to solder I owe a lot to uh data east I owe a lot to Jurassic Park so I played the hell out of it and then I thought oh leds these things are really cool this makes it a lot better than these ugly ass bulbs so I started modding the hell out of it and that's how I got kind of into modding as well I was just complaining with LEDs and everything. So Jurassic Park was my first pin. Sold that, got rid of it. I got, what the hell was my second pin? I think it was Stern Star Trek. Yeah, I thought, you know what? It was a spoiler for the second game. It was. And looking back, I'm sad that I got rid of it. I'm looking for one now just because I was so new into it. I wanted to play a crap load of games. Got into that and I was like, okay, the rules aren't that deep. Get rid of it. And now I miss it and I really want to play it. So it kind of started as an answer, a conference. It started in front of you. Yeah, it's crazy. What about you, man? You know, like, I played, you know, 80s arcades and stuff.
    4:24
    And didn't do a whole lot of pinball, man. Like, I played a lot more Simpsons, Ninja Turtles, that sort of stuff in the arcades. I dug those. Yeah, fantastic. They're still fantastic games. They're cool. But, you know, I did play Tommy, man. There was a laundromat not too far from where I lived when I was a kid. A little Tommy. Yeah, so I could go down there and they had Tommy there. And I remember playing Tommy, that's probably my earliest introduction to pinball. How old were you? Oh man, I was probably 11 or 12 or so, somewhere around there. So not real young. Was it a turd? Was it playing good? No, it played pretty good. I remember, you know, I didn't have much to compare it to. It was a game. But I just remember the music and everything was fantastic. And the toys. But you know, I never thought about pinball again after that. It never really crossed my mind. And about a year ago, we moved into a new house and a basement. I didn't want a pool table. I didn't want all that stuff and everything. So I was like, you know what? What can I fill this space with? I built a theater down there, that sort of thing. And I'm a huge Jurassic Park fan. I mean, I'm a massive Jurassic Park fan. So anything Jurassic Park. I mean, it's something that the wife would let me move into the basement that wasn't something tacky as shit. You know what I'm saying? So I was looking around on eBay, and I saw Jurassic Park pinballs. And I was like, oh, you know, I could do that. But, you know, eBay. It's cool collectible for Jurassic Park. Yes, it is. It's something that could be fun. It's something that just you look cool as hell. People like it. Yeah, exactly. So I was looking at them, and, man, everybody wanted $4,500. Crazy, you know, stupid eBay prices and shit. So I had some across Lost World. Not the best movie, but still cool. Pinball looked cool as hell. Some neat toys. Yeah, yeah. I love Jeff Goldblum. I like that movie. You know I was like What about this? This is somewhat affordable, so I contacted a guy who sort of retail on there
    6:17
    You've contacted them since haven't you? Yes, I have yeah, we're gonna go into What something happened on Pennside recently? It's gonna kind of segue us into this, but I
    6:27
    Thought you know what I talked the guy down to what I was an affordable price not a good price but I talked him to what I could felt that I could afford so it picked up the machine just as literally the electors be just something to have a drastic part in the basement yeah I didn't buy it because I think I want a pinball machine yeah so I got the thing home and the wife held up how did they held you get it in the basement oh man because at that point you didn't know I had to buy guys pack a beer down the road I'm gonna put my machine you make a hold up sorry Did you make any mistakes like loading it up or anything like that? No, everything went smooth in my first machine. Honestly, the smoothest machine I've gotten in my basement. Head folds down. What is this? The first machine was fantastic. Every machine since has been a pain in the ass. Yeah, so I got the thing home. The wife loved it. The kids loved it. Very cool. Started playing. I couldn't stop playing. I know. I just couldn't stop playing. It literally ... It has an effect. Yeah, and I bought that at the end of January of last year was my first machine. That's about when I got in here. We got in at a very similar time. And then I went to Louisville Arcade Expo in March. I guess it was March last year, too, in early March. And, man, the whole family just became obsessed with pins at that point. And then I discovered Zanzibar. I heard about their weekly tournaments, all that sort of stuff. So it just literally escalated from there from that one pinball machine that I had no intent on loving pinball and no intent on buying more machines. It was just I bought it because it was Jurassic Park and it was a cool thing for the basement. And, you know, it's like most people. You get in a pinball van and you either you discard it or you become so absorbed by it. Stupid addiction. It is. It is stupid, man. And it's fun. So now you have.
    8:23
    Currently, I just have the tube machine. I've got, still got Lost World. I'll never get rid of it. And Sweet Keanu Reeves. I picked up a Johnny New York. Oh, yeah. It's a highly underrated game. It is fantastic, man. You talk me into modes and getting all that stuff. It's a great mode game. It is. And I can't really listen to my machine. So he's very, very cautious. And he researches. And he's a bit OCD.
    8:48
    But anything that comes into his house, like you said, the basement, is going to be a pain in the ass. So if it's down there, it's pretty much staying down there. Yeah. Whereas myself, I've got a nice big garage, heated garage, and I've been through, oh, this is sad. It's been a lot of games. This is sad 25 to 30 in a year. What the hell's wrong? And that's how I actually, that's how me and Zach met. Zach had a BSD for sale. And I. That's sweet. It was. It was nice. And I called him about it. And like you said, man, I'm kind of OCD. I'm really weird about what I want to put in my basement. Oh, my God. A phone conversation. So I want really clean games and everything else. So, you know, I called Zach a handful of times about this machine. You know, kicking the tires. How much dirt is in the cabinet? Yeah, how much dirt is in the cabinet? That's a weird thing for me, man. I've got to have a clean inside of a cabinet. I don't know why. I've got to have a clean game. Dirty broken plastic. We all do that shit whenever we come. Can I get pictures of the oars? I'm the person you hate when I come and look at a game. Let me look at the connectors. Even though I've loosened up, man. But my Johnny Mnemonic, it's got some fade. Which one doesn't? Yeah, which Johnny doesn't? Yeah, yeah. So I'm getting over that. Needless to say, he didn't buy. No, I didn't buy. What else? You freaking called me for. I called you a few times. And that's one thing that Zach said at one point. Zach was like, hey, man, if you ever, you know, if you know about this game, whatever, if you just want to talk some pinball sometime, give me a call. So, you know, I looked Zach up to make sure he was a normal person. Did you really? Yeah, hell yeah. You can't be too cautious. That's awesome. So I looked Zach up to make sure he was a normal guy and not some creeper or some shit that going to kill me or something And man we just ended up shooting the shit over multiple games that he have for sale and everything and then we just became pretty good friends Now we talk pinball a shitload Yeah, on a daily basis, basically. So why not get it on video? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's kind of how we got into it, man. Very nice. All right, let's talk about this month in pin side. All right, so what do you want to talk about first, Greg? We've got a couple things, a couple reveals that I want to talk about. You were ranting the other day on the phone about, we won't mention any names, but there was a thread called Buyer Beware. Yeah. And since they pulled it, didn't they? Yeah, I think the OP himself actually wanted it shut down. It got nasty. It did get nasty. And the topic it kind of covered, which is like Zach said, we're not going to mention any names. We don't want to drag a business through the mud or anything else. Each story has a side. This side seemed pretty clear, though, to a point. But a guy had bought from what is considered a retail, in a sense, pinball. Retail operations on pinball. Exactly. And he had gotten the game, he had had the game shipped, and it had some acid damage to it. And it was conveyed to him that the machine was 100% working, that it had been gone through. Did they act like it was restored? No, no, they didn't. I didn't get the sense in the thread that they had restored it or that OP even thought that it was restored or anything. I took it that what it said. He presented some emails and it said the machine is working 100%. It's been fully gone through and tested.
    12:03
    And, you know, it brings up a point. So acid damage. What else was there? Acid damage. Some switches weren't working, which some people had said that was possibly because of the board. but there was some other issues that they didn't... They showed things of it? Yeah, of the board. It wasn't real bad acid damage, but it was clear acid damage. Yeah, and the retailer, the seller had said that, you know, they kind of threw the opiate under the bus and said, hey, you know, that happened in a week's time, you know, since you had the game and this sort of stuff. Battery explosion. Exactly. You know that that damage isn't happening. You know what I'm surprised? I'm surprised a retailer if they're going to shop a game out. They don't just pull the battery pack off the board Well, you know I feel that put a remote battery. Oh, yeah, because in this day. Yeah the first game. I bought it Remote you know it's from a retailer. I think even the turd Jurassic Park I bought ahead yeah, and you would think though that that's one of the number one things that you check Regardless of whether a retailer you're just a pinball guy as long as you're just literally not I have sold plenty of machines with it on the board so I can't I can't say too much but oh no I'm talking about damage itself checking for damage not a real homeowner sorry yeah somebody with a yeah yeah I mean that's you you're looking at the the boards in the back that's one of the first things you do because battery could you imagine really send somebody a game with battery acid no and that's one thing that something brought they seem to feel that the seller was trying to pull a fast one they knew that the acid damage was there. I don't necessarily... I don't see the seller doing that, but I just don't think that the game was gone open. Like, I think that it was a mislead. I think they got the game and then I think they didn't look into it. I think it could have gotten massive damage maybe while it sat there for a month or a couple months or something. But I don't... Oh, so you're saying it sat? It seemed... Through the... Yes, through the thread it seemed like that... I don't even know how it sat for a while. What is the rate of... Damage? I think it varies. A lot of guys on Pinside were saying it seemed in the thread that months to a year like that, but it could occur, I guess, within months. But it's usually a slow process. If you're shopping at a machine and you get a machine off the street, what's the first thing you do? That's exactly right. You pull the batteries. And that's what kind of got my ass a little bit about that and other retailers. And that's what me and Zach discussed on the phone, excuse me, was that there's a lot of people who tout themselves as retailers. And they've got a storefront. They've got a lot of stuff. And they'll say that a game is shopped. And shopped means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But to me as a retailer, if you're paying the crazy prices that they want you to because you're supposed to trust them because they're pinball technicians. They've gone wrong. Yeah, they'll give you a 30-day warranty. Yeah, and all this other different stuff. Did he come with a warrant? I don't know if this one did. Nobody mentioned anything with the warrant on this, but the guy had actually refused that he wasn't going to do anything with the boards. The way it was portrayed in the emails from the OP was that they had basically refused that he ... When was the ... Oh, don't get into that. We don't want to ... Don't identify us too much. Was it a good price? No. No, not at all. Look, I did read through the thread, but it was so messy and dirty. I read through the whole thing. I started it from the beginning. It was so much going on. Was it a bad price? It was a bad price.
    15:31
    If it was shopped and it was in really good shape, it would have been a good price for retail. It wouldn't have been bad, but for the price that it was with damage and stuff. You guys know which one it was. Yeah, you know. If you're watching this and you've read through it, you know what it is. It's a $1,400 game.
    15:50
    You've probably read that a couple times. Yeah, I've read it. Yes, there's a lot of argument over that in that same game. But, you know, me and Zach were talking, man. Like, the very first game that I bought was from a retailer. Yeah. And I overpaid probably easy $600 on the machine. But, like I said, I didn't have any knowledge on pinball. I didn't know what I was getting into.
    16:12
    But I have since returned to that seller. And I looked at a game. And it was a shadow. and it was a kind of a hefty price on it and I contacted him and I said hey you know what do you have and he told me about the shadow and it was big shop and everything else had been in in the yeah been in the storefront for a while I think I'm weird not bad it wasn't bad no so it wasn't in the cab that was in pretty good shape so stuff wasn't bad but I drove up to go see it you know four hours round trip which is a horrible for what a lot of people drive for pinball yeah but uh I drove up there supposed to be chopped gone through everything else LED I get up there and I see the game in the playfield it's just covered in funk man it's just nasty it's just kind of fun we talk just like dirt and grime you know what I'm saying damn so I I pulled the glass off to look inside the cabinet because I may know about the inside of my cabinets I said I was like, yeah, can I have a paper towel? Because, I mean, the dirt was visible. Did you really ask for a paper towel? Yeah, because the dirt was visible on it. Did you ask for a dampen? No, I didn't ask for a dampen. No dampen? No dampen. Because there was so much dirt on here, I didn't need a dampen. So I took it, and I wiped it across the play field. Like I said, there was visible dirt. That's why I take the old. It was completely black. And so I said something to him. I was like, man, you know, I was like, I drove all the way up here, and this is supposed to be a shot. I'm like, dude, what the hell is this? And so he tells me, he said, take some wax to it, some compound, and just buff it out. Because it'll take about two hours and you can have it done. I said, man, you're a retailer. I was like, I'm not going home and spending, after I pay this kind of money for a shadow, I'm not going to go home and spend two hours on my play field before I play the game. What was he selling it as? Did he say it needs shopped? No, it was a shopped game. It was a shopped game? It was shot because it was in his, oh shit, not his lobby, but in his showroom. Showroom. In his showroom. So, yeah, I had thought, you know, that it was a clean, because the first game I bought from him, a couple wires came off, but that's pinball. I understand. I wasn't that stupid. I wouldn't ever handle that. It was a good clean game. I overpaid, but it was a good clean game. But, man, the shadow just really disappointed me. Black play field. Black play field, man.
    18:37
    So that's what me and Zach had talked about. We said, these businesses, man, if you're a retailer, step up your game. Yeah. If you're going to get a healthy profit for things, clean up the damn games. Make sure they work fully. And if they don't, just put a little disclaimer on it. Say that, hey, I can't get the lock mechanism to work, and I don't have time for it. That's why I'm giving you a cheaper price. Exactly. It needs shopped out. But you can't justify the high prices for what you're given. No, that's exactly right. Flippers aren't rebuilt. Yeah. I kind of think the flippers ought to be rebuilt on a game from a retailer. I guess there's a different spectrum of retailers. You've got your high-end retailers. Which you've dealt with some. I have, yeah. Great. I've dealt with great high-end retailers. Some mid-level people that shop games out. They don't restore anything, but they shop games out. They rebuild flippers. I think that's at minimum what a retail place should be. I agree. It should be, if we're going to charge you $500 to $1,000 more per game, again, pinball people, we love spending money. It's just what we do. We burn through the shit. But I want to buy a game that feels solid. Yes, you don't want a collector's quality. But if it's got a burnt pin, they're on there. There's burnt pins. Maybe those replace. Make sure the game works. Make sure it has a nice coat of wax. Make sure the flippers are rebuilt. or if they're not they're at least strong enough to give the day yeah that they're not gonna in two months be yeah yeah so we can't hit a shot lower end i don't maybe they're maybe this is a call for getting rid of lower end retailers i don't what's the if they're just flippers then right yes and that's exactly the way i take it is they're pin flippers that have uh a showroom um no matter how good of a showroom it's a it's a they're a flipper with a showroom in a sense or a building like it doesn't it doesn't that extra overhead doesn't justify your price i tend to stay away from low-end retailers because sometimes this is no sometimes i feel like they don't even know what they're doing when it comes to pinball maybe if they're arcadian pinball guys they have no clue yeah like i can say you know what years is did this come out what who made this game well the retailer i cannot complain on that front the retailer i bought it from He a pretty cool guy He hasn necessarily been an ass to me or anything In some aspects with price negotiation there been some problems But he very knowledgeable on pins Have you met some retailers that have no freaking clue?
    21:09
    Yes. I have. No clue. You'll ask, what's the price of this... I don't want to actually pick the one or call the guy out. What's the price of this roller games? roller games, which I kind of like. Oh, that's $3,000. Jesus. Roller games, $3,000. What's the price of this shadow? Oh, that's $2,800. Do your homework. How is the price difference? Yeah, Popeye, $6,000. What? What the hell is that? Austin Powers, $6,000. Are you joking me? There's no way.
    21:46
    Here's another point. If they are that high price, they're going to people willing to pay for them. And those people are people that don't know pinball. No, but at the same time, those people that don't know pinball, it almost hurts the community because I'm not going to give a percentage. But it's like what we talked about how we got into pinball. It's like if you get one game, there's a high percentage that you're going to fall in love with pinball. If it breaks down a lot, you're not going to buy it. And if you know that you got robbed, you're not going to want to go back to that person. You overpaid $600, $700, $800 for a machine. That's right. because you're most likely going to trade that machine in and get another machine, or you're going to start building a small collection of two or three machines. So you're going to want to stay in pinball, and it kind of discourages people. We want more people into pinball. We don't want to discourage people and say, well, I played a couple games and it doesn't work now, and I called the guy and he's kind of an ass. Yeah, because that's the thing, too. It's like 30-day warranties. A lot of people get a 30-day warranty on a pinball machine. But how many people, unless you're in a large city, do you sell pinball machines locally? Or how many are shipped? Or people drive four, five, six hours to get a pinball machine? It's unfeasible to take that machine back to somebody. They want it delivered to them most of the time. There are a lot of deliveries. So it's unfeasible to get that machine back to get it repaired.
    23:06
    Whenever people come play your games and when they say they're new to pinball and they say, this is awesome, where can I get a pinball machine? After they freak about the price range yes would you recommend see for me i have to recommend a new game for i have to like there's no way in good conscience i can say you know buy this system system ledger group i try i try to tell them to buy i know if something's going to break and then you're going to get discouraged like put as much in as you can get a newer game so you don't have as much and i think people unless they they're doing really well for themselves most people their first pin they're They're not going to go drop five grand on a new stern. I always tell people find a $4,000 stern. I try to push them in that direction first, but if they can't afford it, I'm not going to bullshit them and tell them, hey, listen, you buy this game and it's low to flip. It's like a classic car to me. There's always tweaking and adjusting on a pinball machine that you're going to have to do, whether it's soldering the wire. Part of it is good because it makes people fall in love with the intricacies of pinball. Yes, soldering or the fixing the rubber adding an LED. You know that turns into for me. It's an intimacy That's I love that stuff and I like that more than playing in some cases Yeah, but that was one that was one hot thing on on pins on tap, but there's there's more to it There's more to it than just that so there is I don't know if you want me to be gotta get into a little bit So okay, so it was ugly. Yeah guys don't turn and try to back himself up. Here's the other thing if you're a business you have an image right hell even for this stupid little video here like we have a logo we have a name we try to yeah cuss a little bit but i'm trying to be professional yeah if somebody came at me with heat on a video show i'm not going to come back at them because i'm representing us as a person which has been some controversy on some of your your game sales of lighting oh yeah it's a different issue and you never got you never got defensive you know I've got another for Star Trek Next Generation. Which was a beautiful machine, by the way. Right? It was awesome. If anybody ever saw that on there, the powder-coated purple. Beat that? Yeah, it was a fantastic-looking machine. But I served as… You didn't attack people. That's exactly right. You didn't come back with negative effects. No. Who does that? Especially if you're a business and you're making money off of this stuff. Don't be an ass. You're not selling pinball machines. You're selling your product. You're selling your title, your company. You're selling your personality. No way. Don't mess it up because you sold a turd machine. Man up, fix the problem, and take care of it. Because in the long run, it's going to cost that business so many more customers, especially in such a tight-knit community. You know, they're still going to sell some of their expensive pins to people that don't know pinball. Exactly right. But people who do know pinball, it counts for a lot of their customers. Pinball people should not do pinball people wrong. Let's just stop doing this shit. If we're interacting and talking on pinball, we're both knowledgeable, don't bullshit the other person. Because you know you don't like what it feels like. And most people I've come across, I haven't bought and sold a lot of games just because of the basement ordeal, but most people I've come across have been very helpful. They're awesome. Collectors want to show you their stuff. People are cool. Yeah, they're enthusiastic about it. I guess some of the best people that I've ever met are pinball people. Some of the weirdest people. You got some of you out there. You know who you are. Some of you guys. Very odd. So my point is, don't sell yourself short. Now, how would that threat have been different, Greg, if you showed his poo-poo of a machine and the actual retailer got along with him and said, you know what? Shame on me. Yes, if they would have said, you know, I did make a mistake, it was a local mistake. Let me make this right.
    26:59
    And what would it cost them? $300? They didn't say $300. There was a place, I can't remember, I wish I knew where somebody had recommended getting boards. It was a $150 board. Okay, so even if they went out of their way and said, you know what, I'm going to ship this to you, I'm going to get this right, I'm going to walk you through the process if you need help, what would have happened? Nothing. Nobody would have flamed it. Would it have been shut down? No. The flame of ambition, you would not have nearly the post on there. And if you did, they would have been praising the seller. What would the retailer have taken away from that? More business, probably. Because they would actually look better. Because it's like, hey, here's this company who is reputable. That's right. And I've heard of them in multiple occasions. They sell some products. They sell a lot of high-end restored pins that are beautiful.
    27:45
    But here they went a step above and beyond. Because they actually made a mistake. and they were man enough to admit to it and to correct the problem, I would have had a lot more respect for them because then I would have felt, I would have been like, you know what, at least they made it right. Yeah, I would have felt ten times more comfortable doing business with that company. Yeah. Even if I hadn't before, I would have said, it would give you a little assurance. Yes. Like, if something does go wrong, these guys are an ass. Exactly. Even though you have a good reputation, when you actually see someone fixing a problem and it's brought to light, then I'm like, you know what, I might look at them next time. I've heard of them, but I might actually buy a pen from them. That's why we all still shop at Walmart. Yeah. I mean, you can buy something, take it out, wear it. Yeah. Take it back. Don't worry. Or someplace. Say, yes, sir. It's true. Yeah. That's why you keep shopping there. Yeah. I agree. It's all about that. So that was a nasty little thread. It was a nasty thread. It was one of the hottest things on Pennside. Yeah, we were going to talk about the play field issues. That's kind of the dying point. Stern's still got some issues, but they're working those out. But thank God, guys. Pennside has kind of been a little chill right now. It has been. A neat little new game, kind of a custom game, Jetsons. The Jetsons. Not too long ago, a few weeks ago. Yeah, the Jetsons. So who doesn't like the theme of the Jetsons? The Jetsons are fantastic. It's really cool. Nick and Brooke with the Pinball Company, they're set up in, where are they at, Columbia, Columbus, Missouri, over there. Awesome business. You can't say enough. I've worked with them in the past. They're fantastic people. They've got a fantastic world. I've never dealt with them, but everything I've heard from Zach is that they are really, really great. So when I saw that they actually contracted Spooky to do the Jetsons pinball, they got the license and stuff, I thought, oh, this is awesome. Now they're getting some heat on pin side right now because it is a different kind of game. It's a different layout. Price point is still pretty high. Yeah. But I think we feel a little bit differently about this. How do you feel about the Jetsons pinball machine? You saw the shot. I like the theme. I like the art. I think they killed it with the art. Art's pretty good. Cabinet looks good. Some of the negative comments were the lack of play-filled toys, shots. It feels almost like a home use for entry level. I agree. I still like it, and I still want to give it a chance, but I kind of felt that it was lacking just from visuals. The playing is a whole other story, but I do know that they came out and Spooky said that they work with Pinball Company. Say that example from our last topic. Yes, there was some feedback. How great is that? Exactly. You got feedback? They got feedback. They weren't defending themselves over the game. They said, hey, listen, we're going to, to my understanding, they're going to go back and add a few things, rework a few things from the reviews that they got from the initial images that were released on Pennside. That, hey, we're going to take that criticism and we're going to work with it instead of being defensive and being crappy. They revealed it nicely. Yes. It wasn't overdone. It wasn't underdone. I thought it was a great reveal. You pop onto Pennside, oh, hey, no, the Dresdens are up. and you could see pictures. I like the... And with a small company, two small companies, pinball companies, they're big, but they're not... They serve high-end people. And Spooky is still a smaller company. That's right. So the expense to do a pinball machine like that is astronomical. So that's why... No hate. My way. What a brave company. It is. To take that on, that expenditure, to have a game created just for you When you look at the game it doesn look like a fully stocked Jersey Jack or Stern I think all parties would agree on it I think what they were going for was a real pinball machine Yes. Anybody could play it. Yes. An entry-level pinball machine, regardless of the price, it's still entry-level. You put it in your house, the entire family likes it. This isn't the 55-year-old divorced male by himself with 40 pinball machines. I bet they might have it if they got four pinball machines. And they like the Jetsons. For the theme, yeah. But I'm excited about it. I don't know of any downside right now because when you look at the play field itself, it looks sparse because there's one ramp. I think that's what kills people. Ghostbusters, same thing. There's only one ramp, and they copped out by going up the thing. That second ramp shot on Ghostbusters. It works, though. It works. I love it. But there was one ramp you saw a lot of the spooky stuff that they do with the orbits with the scoops and stuff like that but If you look into it a little bit more Elroy's got a kind of a cool little shot going on there The inner orbit is really kind of cool The art package in the back is a little sparse But that's an easy fix and if they don't fix it who cares but yeah, the colors are nice. The cabinet is nice it's a spooky pinball machine. I think it's a big job. It's a contracted spooky pinball. Let's compare it to Domino's. If you compare it to Domino's, I'd rather have the Jetsons. I would way rather have Jetsons than Domino's. People are, not the damn Domino's machine. I like it, it's fun. I'm really excited about the Jetsons. I think it's awesome. And like you said about the company, taking that risk on for pinball company to make that, it's fantastic. I want to see more games like that, like Domino's and stuff. I want to see more contracted games that are coming up. It's neat. That's a neat thing that people are doing. And it is a huge risk. Think about taking all of what you've got in the business and trying to develop your own pinball machine. I think one guy on Pinsight this is kind of a neat idea. It would be the hardest thing to ever get off the ground. If my memory serves me correctly, there was a guy who wanted, how many people would it take to get together to have Spooky to do a pinball machine like that? If 300 pinball guys got together, you could agree on sort of a theme that you paid. That's what I'm saying. Getting everybody's ideas, like two or three people can't work in a band together and do stuff. But it is a cool that the option exists from Spooky. Crowd sourced or crowd funded. Yeah, that you could get a game built by them that a bunch of guys went in on. It can be done. It can be done, yeah. The fact that it's there and that opportunity is there and I think it would get cheaper and better the more companies that jump on board. doing things like that. So, yeah, man, I still give it up to them. I think they're going to fix some of the major concerns. I'm looking forward to it. I do. To me, it does better than Stern's Spider-Man, the one they're all about. Oh, by far. Yeah, that homey, I would love that. And I think part of it is just because there's no other Jetsons. Yes. So this is the Jetsons. For Spider-Man, we already know that game kicks ass. Exactly. And then you strip it down more so than even a pro, and you still put that high price on it. It doesn't have a coin max or anything. But, yeah, that feels – but I haven't – to be fair, I haven't played it. I've heard it's actually fun to play. But I'm excited about the Jets. I'm excited, too. Let's see what this company can do.
    34:53
    I'm going to support their endeavors. I think it's really cool. I think we're going to reach out to Nick and Brooke and see if they want to talk to us at some point. I think it would be awesome to go over to their place. But, yeah, I'm really excited about it. I am, too. Good luck, everything, pinball company. Let's see what it holds. And then the Aerosmith. Aerosmith, they announced that a couple weeks ago. They're about Aerosmith. Everybody's crying about Aerosmith. Do you like Aerosmith? Like the music? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I do.
    35:21
    At a point, I felt like they were sort of sellouts in a way. Their music became so, I hate to say this, I mean, I guess so mainstream that it was used for everything and everybody listened to it.
    35:33
    But yeah, man, I really like Aerosmith music. I like the Dirty Donnie art. I don't think anybody's objected to that. Yeah. I do like it. I'm digging it. I'm really looking forward to it. It'll be exciting to play. We'll review it at some point. I'm really looking forward to it. I love the colors. The LCD looks good. It would look better if it had a big screen on it. The animations need work. That's all it needs work really. Yeah, the animations. That's the biggest concern that I've heard. Code, running. You got this. You got this. I like it. I'm stoked. I'll probably own one. Yeah, I won't. But you know that I will. I'll own it in a couple of weeks. You'll own it at some point, yeah. For sure. I like it. So on to another thing. This isn't necessarily, this pops up on weekly occurrence, it seems like, on somebody's thread. But you know, LEDs and color GI. Well, even LEDs versus incandescents. Yes. You guys, are we still arguing about this? Everybody. Come on, guys. There's no way that you really like incandescents. At this point, you're just trying to hold your view. point so that you can stay true to the old pinball way. And I think even if you do like the incandescence of some games, the look, go with a warm LED. It just, it's better on the machine. You don't have pinballs. I like LEDs. Yeah. Nothing like a frosting. It is. Color preference, man, it's to each their own. It's another one of those options. Everybody could argue all day whether to add a blue in here, to blue a demo man, or whether just to keep it all white. Do you do a natural white on there So it's got that bright feel. You know, it's personal preference. And the nice thing about LEDs, they're cheap. Most games, unless you've got a Sega, are easy to change the bulbs. So you know, $50 to $100 and an hour of your time, two hours. And you can make the game personalized, man. It's like you're a fan. And guess what? People want to play it. I wish I had somebody here. Like, I've got a buddy. He's just really, really old school. Loves incandescents. When I go over to his house, I don't. Like, it's just game-darned just pretty. And I always bust his chops about it, and he's always like, you like that bright shit, that rainbow stuff. But it's spoiled unicorn stuff.
    37:46
    When I first got my Lost World, man, it was all LED. Yeah. It had natural white in there, which some might think is a little extreme. But it's got the back glass on there. It's just the, damn, whatever. The fluorescent. The fluorescent bulb. So that color of white actually pops pretty well in everything, even though there's a lot of yellows and stuff. But everybody that came over, man, the game was in such good shape. And with that bright lighting, they thought it was brand new. I love it. 20-year-old game. I love that you have a lost one. I can't get over it. We're going to get into this at some point, man, because it's an overlooked game. And it's not just because this is my first pin. It's a fantastic game. Everybody loves their first pin. It's like their first, uh, like, uh. But it's still overlooked. And when we review that game, I'm going to give, I'm going to be so hard. It's so convincing of why that you should play this game. There's no other review on it. No, there is no reviews. We're going to be like the first people to ever do a Lost World. That's their big one. Somebody's going to be like, actually, there is a. I mean, it'll be terrible. We're going to do it so much better. We're going to do a Donald Trump. It's going to be so good. We're going to build a Lost World. All right. So. I got off track there. Color GI. So people are still arguing they like their incandescence. Flash Gordon, fine. Put incandescence behind the back glass. LED the hell out of that thing. Yeah, do it. And do it to suit you, man. Don't worry what other people think. LED a game the way you want to do it. A lot of that stuff that he'll LED, some of it I don't like. But some of it, man. He doesn't like blues and Walking Dead pro. No, no, I think that it should be the reds and whites because it makes the cabinet and the back glass and everything one cohesive unit. So it drives me crazy. But, man, like his shadow that he owned at one point. Oh, yeah. Gorgeous that he did. Purple alert. Yeah. But it was so gorgeous. Demo man that you've done. You've done a few demo man. Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful machines. And stuff. So at least he's a hell of a lot. That's what I say. I'm like full on. You color that GI, buddy. You color it up. So it's teach their own man with GI, but you know. But we can still argue about it because I'll still argue. Like, listen, if I could put LEDs in a damn EM, I'm going to put them in an EM. Yeah. There are some games, though, I had that flash Gordon for a while. Yeah. I couldn't do it to myself or to that pinball machine to put anything but size incandescence in the back glass. Yeah. There are some instances like that. If you've got a DMD game, what DMD can you think of, Greg, that deserves anything but LEDs? That's not very many. There's none? No. Because you take something like Black Pyramid. I'm a big fan of Black Pyramid for an EM. It's purples. It's beautiful. So you LED that game, that game is gorgeous. It takes LED. I get the history. You're taking away some of what was. But if they would have had LEDs available to them at that time, the games would have been a lot different. The boards would have thanked them. Oh yeah, definitely. But I mean, some people say it ruins the artwork, it ruins what the machine was made of. It's not necessarily because a lot of the artwork, those damn incandescents are so sparse on some of the games that you couldn't... That's true. You know that they're going to a bar. Yeah. At that day and age, they were going to a bar someplace dimly lit. You couldn't even enjoy the art because you couldn't see it. Yeah. You know? They look cool, even the older machines with incandescents. I'm not ripping. I think they look cool. I'll play because I love pinball. But at the end of the day for me, LEDs are just the way to go. I agree. There's nothing like it. So there you have it guys. You know, that's a couple of rundowns of some hot things on Pinside. You know, next month we'll bring you some more hot topics, probably some juicier stuff. Yeah, get some juicy stuff on there. Yeah, so... At that point, we'll see, next month will be, maybe we'll start seeing some, Deadflip's going to do Aerosmith gameplay. Yeah. So we'll see that by the time you're viewing this, probably he's already shown that. So we'll talk about that. about that we'll talk about all the other little ugly nasty things that you guys can think of and post on pin side and then go over the line on and then continue to branch your point until you hurt people's feelings here's the people's feelings that's right have a good one guys see you