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#12 - Zach Meny

A Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 17m·analyzed·Aug 31, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Zach Meny on founding Pinball Network and improving pinball broadcast storytelling for mainstream growth.

Summary

Zach Meny discusses founding the Pinball Network (TPN) in February 2024 with co-founders including Ken Cromwell and Dennis Creasel, detailing the network's vision to unify fragmented pinball media. The conversation covers tournament competitiveness, competitive player personalities (Eric Stone, Keith Elwin, Josh Sharp), and the need for better broadcast storytelling to grow pinball's mainstream appeal through character-driven narratives rather than pure gameplay.

Key Claims

  • Pinball Network was established in February 2024 with five founding members: Zach Meny, Ken Cromwell, Dennis Creasel, Greg Bone, and Jason Fowler

    high confidence · Zach explicitly states: 'So we established what we call the Pinball Network, acronym TPN, back in February.'

  • Ken Cromwell moved to Jersey Jack Pinball and Raymond Davidson moved to Stern Pinball from media roles

    high confidence · Zach states both moved to manufacturer positions; Travis mentions 'Ken Cromwell went to Jersey Jack, and then you had Raymond Davidson going to Stern'

  • Josh Sharp consulted on Hot Wheels pinball rules

    high confidence · Travis mentions 'Josh Sharp apparently was telling Teolis that he had consulted a little bit on either the rules' and Zach confirms after listening to Jeff Teolis' podcast

  • Pinball competitive broadcasts need character-driven storytelling similar to World Series of Poker to grow mainstream appeal

    high confidence · Zach proposes detailed broadcast format with player backgrounds, 30-second intros, highlights, and final round coverage to make pinball accessible to non-enthusiasts

  • Some competitive pinball community members resist growth of the sport

    medium confidence · Dennis Creasel mentioned as always saying 'there's such a large group of people in competitive pinball that don't want it to get any bigger'

  • Foosball has competitive broadcasts reaching 50,000 to 300,000 views per game on YouTube

    medium confidence · Travis states: 'I mean, there's games out there, just individual games, with 50 clear up to 300,000 views' regarding foosball content

  • Greg Bone did not complete joining Pinball Network despite being a founder

    high confidence · Zach states: 'And I even told the guys, I said, look, it's five of us. Don't bank on Greg actually crossing the finish line or even the starting line here. And I was right. He didn't.'

Notable Quotes

  • “So we established what we call the Pinball Network, acronym TPN, back in February. It feels like ages ago because we've went through so many tribulations throughout the start of TPN.”

    Zach Meny @ early — Core founding statement of Pinball Network with acknowledgment of challenges

  • “If we're going to move pinball forward, if we're going to progress and try to get the eyes of individuals outside of pinball, sure, 25 podcasts could do it. Maybe one stands out to people outside of the pinball industry. But maybe, just maybe, if an outside entity comes in, takes a look and says, what do you mean there's a network?”

    Zach Meny @ mid — Strategic vision for TPN's unified approach vs. fragmented media landscape

  • “I see Josh Sharp. I'm seeing a 30 second intro as, you know, games are playing 30 second intro about his background, what he does for a living, him interacting in the kitchen with his kids, him pressing the start button. We've got all these little quirks.”

    Zach Meny @ mid-late — Detailed broadcast vision for character-driven storytelling in pinball tournaments

  • “I think we need to make pinball tournaments episodic to where you have, you know, an episode that lasts 30 minutes to where you release it. And you kind of show what happens, like you said, highlights of what's happening in the early rounds.”

    Travis Murray @ late — Practical proposal for improving competitive pinball broadcast format

  • “I think somebody eventually is going to do it. I mean, I think it's coming pretty quick. Within the next two years, I think somebody is going to attempt that, even if it's on a small scale.”

    Travis Murray @ late — Prediction of character-driven broadcast format adoption in pinball

  • “The bigger it is, the more resources we have, the more resources we have, the more fun we're going to have. And I know that competitors like money. I like money. And the bigger you make this thing, the more money you're going to win.”

    Zach Meny @ mid-late — Argument for growth of competitive pinball ecosystem

Entities

Zach MenypersonTravis MurraypersonPinball NetworkorganizationKen CromwellpersonDennis CreaselpersonGreg BonepersonRaymond DavidsonpersonJosh Sharpperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Pinball Network formed as consolidation of fragmented media landscape

    high · Zach details founding of TPN with five initial members attempting to unify competing media entities

  • ?

    event_signal: Eric Stone notable for intense competitive play style and personality

    medium · Travis describes Eric Stone's intensity and Zach discusses him as compelling broadcast personality

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinburgh tournament mentioned as largest pinball competition with 1000+ attendees

    high · Travis describes attending Pinburgh and references 'Go ahead and name them. Well, okay. No, don't' regarding attendees

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Josh Sharp consulted on Hot Wheels pinball rules design

    high · Travis mentions Sharp told Teolis he 'had consulted a little bit on either the rules' and Zach confirms after listening to Teolis interview

  • $

    market_signal: Proposal for character-driven broadcast format as solution to mainstream pinball growth

    medium · Zach proposes World Series of Poker-style editing with player backgrounds, 30-second intros, and highlights

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Raymond Davidson moved to Stern Pinball for design and code work

    high · Zach states: 'Ray Day...he's now, you know, helping design and code some of these pinball machines'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.233

0:00
My next guest needs no introduction. He has hosted the Twippy Awards twice. He is also the owner of Flippin' Out Pinball, the co-host of Straight Down the Middle, in which you can find on YouTube. And he's one of the founders of the Pinball Network, where he currently co-hosts a show called the Pinball Show on that channel. I encourage you guys to check that out. We had a great conversation with this podcast. We talked about basically all things pinball that you can think of. We talked about tournaments. We talked about games that could be coming out. We talked about just some various topics. And I also encourage you guys to stick around and listen until the very end as we do have a giveaway coming up via Flippin' Out Pinball. I think you guys will really enjoy that. Otherwise, great guy, great conversation. I give you guys Zach Mini. You can stare at the camera as long as you want.
0:56
There you go. and we're live mr minnie how you doing there how's it going travis it's going great i'm glad to finally have you on pinball how do you pronounce your last name man i botch it every time is it murray is it murray is it what is it which one do you think it is i think it's travis murray there you go did i get it right yeah you nailed it that's why i've never corrected you i just don't like when people botch my last name so i wanted to make sure i got it right i mean i'll be perfectly candid i actually even if somebody does mess up my name i don't even correct them it's happened so often yeah i get there too it yeah it's sometimes i even think i probably just pronounce my own name wrong at times i'm just i'm just gonna call you marvelous marv that is actually how i got the marv name i never even told you yeah yeah that's actually how it started out yep yeah exactly there you go you just know you just you have a pulse you know i've I got a feeling on a lot of things in pinball, Travis.
1:58
Well, for those that don't know, this is Zach. I think everybody here knows him, so I don't have to say anything more. But, yeah, so I'm interested, though. We were talking about a little bit off stream about TPN and all things pinball. Can you tell me a little bit about that, about how you came up with the formation of that and how that came about? So we established what we call the Pinball Network, acronym TPN, back in February. It feels like ages ago because we've went through so many tribulations throughout the start of TPN. Initially, it was just five of us buddies that wanted to. We just we kind of got tired of everybody feeling so separate in the media. We all were doing something. You know, Kim Cromwell was doing Special and Lit. Greg Bone was doing Straight Down the Middle with me. Dennis Crease was doing Twip Podcast with myself. Jason Fowler was Slap Save.

“If you're not going to do it, it's about sustainability too. If you're not going to grow, there's only one place to go. you can't stay you can't stay the same for an extended period of time.”

Travis Murray @ late — Sustainability argument for pinball growth

Eric Stone
person
Keith Elwinperson
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Stern Pinballcompany
Hot Wheelsgame
Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
Straight Down the Middleorganization
Jeff Teolisperson
Colin Urbanperson
Jason Fowlerperson
  • ?

    personnel_signal: Ken Cromwell moved from Flippin' Out Pinball/media to Jersey Jack Pinball

    high · Zach confirms: 'Ken Cromwell is just killing it at JJP' and Travis mentions initial observation of move

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Recognition that some competitive players resist growth of pinball

    medium · Dennis Creasel observation that 'there's such a large group of people in competitive pinball that don't want it to get any bigger'

    • 2:59
    Am I missing anybody? My apologies if so. So we were all kind of doing our own separate thing. And we were hanging out for a couple of years prior to that. And we've always talked about, I wonder what it would be like if we roll on the same show and five people on a show doesn't make any sense. So we thought, well, would anybody ever have any interest creating something like a group that we would do the media on? And then as we kind of formulated that idea over months upon months, we finally, there was just, it came to an apex where there were some things going on where I was getting tired. I was getting, things felt stale. Same for the other guys. Greg Bone was just drinking beer. He didn't care what was going on. And I even told the guys, this is a side note, really funny. I told the guys, I said, look, it's five of us. Don't bank on Greg actually crossing the finish line or even the starting line here. And I was right. He didn't. But for other reasons. But, yeah, so we just thought about starting up something together. And then we tried to figure out what made the most sense. And then we thought, well, hell, why not just include everybody? because this is a time in pinball where a lot of media, there's conflict, there's competition. We have an award ceremony now. And there was just so much going on that we just got sick and tired of it. And we're like, well, why don't we just create something that, you know, nearly anybody can join. That way there is some unity in pinball and whether it's streaming, whether it's videos, whether it's podcasting, you name it. there will be one place, one playground for everybody to kind of hang out and build a good team approach. And we also, you know, the bigger picture for me, and I know I've talked to Ken about this, was that if we're going to move pinball forward, if we're going to progress and try to get the eyes of individuals outside of pinball, sure, 25 podcasts could do it. Maybe one stands out to people outside of the pinball industry. But maybe, just maybe, if an outside entity comes in, takes a look and says, what do you mean there's a network? That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. But if they just stop to look at the group and teamwork dynamic that we were creating, maybe we could build something from that. So it started February 2020. We've been doing it for six, seven months. And a lot has changed out of the original five founders, Dennis Creasel and myself are the last ones standing. We have added some additional committee members to help with decision-making and different things, but we've grown rapidly and we continue to grow different affiliated streamers, different new podcasts, some new voices, some very veteran seasoned voices, video content, you name it. We try to keep building it. And we're having a blast. I'm still having fun. It's a crap load of work, but it's fun. Yeah, I was about to say, you guys actually have quite the stable, even all the streamers that you guys have. And there came a time, too, where you guys were basically sending everybody to the big leagues, it seemed like. I mean, was it Cromwell went to Jersey Jack, and then you had Raymond Davidson going to Stern? That has nothing to do with TPN. I think if anything, it was because these are great people and we wanted to have great people and our friends as part of this thing. So I think that was just a happy accident. But, yeah, Ken Cromwell is just killing it at JJP and Ray Day. Everybody knows if he's not the greatest pinball player out there, he's now, you know, helping design and code some of these pinball machines. It's great. And I don't think this is the last at all, Travis. I think you're going to see other people not only from TPN, but from from media and from competition. I think there's going to be a lot of people that we get in-house in the industry to help create these machines in the future. Yeah. And that's what's getting really interesting. I actually just listened to an interview just yesterday. As a matter of fact, it was Colin Urban, who is an 18 year old from Portland, Oregon, national champion and all that. And he was mentioning that he wanted to get into designing pinball in the future, possibly. So, I mean, it seems like that there's definitely a stable of people coming along, especially even from a competitive side that are starting to put their stamp on pinball, especially in the future. And that's I mean, to me, that's going to be interesting, especially with Elwin kind of leading the way in that. Now you have others, you know, kind of joining in. And then I heard recently it was funny. I was mentioned the other day on my podcast that it felt like playing Hot Wheels. Like somebody had a say in that somewhere. They had a competitive background, just the way it was. And then somebody emailed me and told me that Josh Sharp apparently was telling Teolis that he had, I guess, consulted a little bit on either the rules. Yeah, I didn't know that either. And then I listened back on what Jeff Teolis' podcast interview with him. And it turns out that's exactly what was going on. And I'm like, okay, this is starting to make a little bit more sense a little bit. Well, yeah, it does make sense because I think, doesn't Josh have a Hot Wheels?
    8:36
    Yes, yes. And I have to brag a little bit. I was told because I put up a time of a minute and two seconds. Total humble brag. But I was told that that is one second ahead of either Josh or Zach Sharp and two seconds ahead. So I bet Zach is probably the one that's 103. Josh is used to getting second place. So he's probably, he's probably the best. I love completing races on that game. That is fun. It is. I mean, it goes quick and that game is interesting to me. I thought it was going to leave pretty quick for me. I thought it was just going to play for a month. Yeah, I was thinking about that. I was like, I wonder if Miri is going to hold on to this game for a while or if it'll come and go. So you like it. I like it. I mean, full transparency, I'm still not a fan of the theme, but I find myself, like whenever I do play pinball, I'll get engrossed with the theme, but sometimes I just get engrossed with the shots. And then I get engrossed with trying to score more or trying to do more. Like, theme be damned. You know, I mean, I was at a pinball show a couple years ago, and I was playing hard body for 30 straight minutes trying to get a high score on that. Yeah, and that's like. I'm sorry. Yeah, exactly.
    9:46
    I just get like that. I get very tunnel-driven. That's why you're one of the best, man. That's why you're a competitive player. Oh, gosh. Well, you got to do what you got to do to try to keep up with people. Some of those guys, it's just crazy. No, you don't because I'm not going to play hard body for next year.
    10:02
    Well, you were going to step into the competitive arena, right, for Pembroke this year, weren't you? Look, last year I got a ticket and I couldn't go.
    10:15
    And this year I tried to get a ticket and damned me. I didn't get a ticket and served me right. But I was on the wait list. I don't know how deep I was on the wait list.
    10:26
    But yeah, I was going to go. And my plan was to film the entire process and make it my very first. I don't know if I made this public yet, but make it my very first tournament competition. Anything formal when it comes to competitive pinball. I wanted to walk a future viewer into my experience with walking through not only a tournament, but the world's largest and greatest pinball tournament of all time. So, yeah, I was going to I was going to have a selfie cam and I was going to experience the whole thing and do diaries at the end of the night. And but that didn't happen. Yeah, yeah. Well, that that honestly, that idea, though, you're on to something there. That would have been awesome content right there because I've had people ask me about before, is there any way, and this is non-pinball people. They're like, is there any way you can actually just live stream you playing pinball at these events or competitions? Because I don't even know if pinball people are even familiar with this, but there's such thing as IRL streams on Twitch to where people legitimately just wear backpacks that are just designed with a little camera over here just to show what's going on. And something like that, that was actually really fascinating when somebody mentioned that to me, just to be able to go around an event, to be able to play, to be able to show that, to be able to basically connect with your audience in a totally different way. That was the idea anyway. I don't know if they would have allowed me in, but damned if I wouldn't, I would find a way to film it. I promise you that. Even if I got Bowen Cairns chasing after me, I would still find a way to film the entire process. But I thought it would have been fun and it would be a good experience for anybody jumping into the competitive scene because they would see me. It's very intimidating. I was like, right. I talk a lot and I have a podcast, have a video series and stuff. But when it comes to I legit am intimidated by the whole process and it's not so much the playing. I know where my skill level lies. It's it's not great. It's not horrible, but it's arriving. it's preparing it's um knowing the different um exploitations on the different machines it's checking in yeah shit you not man it's i don't know how to check in like i don't know the unwritten rules of where i'm supposed to stand or all of these things i'm i'm neurotic so i have all of these things going on at once and it is just it's terrified me so much that i have not I've not competed before that. And I live in the middle of nowhere where there's not much competition, but yeah, it's terrifying. Well, that, I mean, you hit the nail on the head on something about that. And that's actually a common concern that I hear from a lot of people, especially even in Oklahoma that are newer to the scene that they don't quite understand how it goes or anything like that. And I mean, it, it can be, if you're, if you've never played pinball, it's hard enough stepping up to a pinball machine. If you haven't done, done it before, let alone playing it against other people for something, you know, on the line. And you're not quite sure how to do it because there's so many different formats as well. So that's the other thing. Like, I'd have no clue. I need to, like, hire somebody to walk with me in these tournaments and be like, OK, this is what you do. Don't do this. Stand here. Smile. Don't do this. That's what I need because it's terrifying. But I do know that the community that we are a part of is a kick-ass community. And for the most part, everybody would probably walk me through the process and answer any questions I have. But it's just not my personality to to be. I don't want to be a nuisance in something that I don't really know. So it's tough, man. Well, the good news is, is that if Pinnberg is your very first tournament you do, you might as well just go straight to the top. You might as well just a division or bust. Hey, if you're not first, you're last, baby. that's a i i told somebody this the other day because i i only have been to one pinberg ever and oh that surprises me well i got into competitive pinball probably about two and a half years ago now like i've been playing pinball for a little while but i finally started playing tournaments and i i was too late to go to pinberg a couple years ago no ticket or anything like that and i didn't want to waste the plane ride there just to watch all my friends play so i finally got there last year and like you said i mean there is a certain intimidation factor when it comes to not knowing the process or what's going on but you know even with pinberg i one of the things i noticed people were actually it was funny compared to other tournaments people were actually a lot more nice in terms of playing and everything i mean not saying people aren't welcoming or anything like that but there was just so many different personalities there and there's a lot of people there that they may not be the best pinball players in the world, but they genuinely love pinball, and they're reaching out to everybody trying to help people. Now, there were a couple A-holes here and there. I mean, you got 1,000 people. Go ahead and name them.
    15:34
    Well, okay. No, don't. No, no, no. I don't know the name. If I knew the name, I would say it right now. I know they were playing with Jeff Teolis and Raymond Davidson like two pins down from me, right? And the only reason why I know this is because I was playing jackpot, and I was already on tilt. Like, not tilting the machine. I was just raging because I was missing, like, every shot. And I'm trapped up, and I need to just hit one more into the saucer to start a multiball, right? This guy just yells at the top of his lungs, just screams out. It jars me so much that I fumble the ball and drain.
    16:14
    Wow. Son of a... Yeah. Yeah, I was not happy. But I was more mad at myself. I don't play competitive pinball, but I do watch competitive pinball. And you know who that sounds like to me?
    16:30
    Who? Sounds like a meteorologist to me. No, Eric Stone actually? Yeah, it wasn't Eric Stone. I'll tell you that. I'm just busting Eric Stone. Yeah, I don't recognize who it was, but if I knew, I would say it. Eric Stone's one of my favorite people to watch play pinball. Dude, he is intense. Yeah, that's what I love. I love watching that intensity. He gets it done, though. I mean, it works for him so well. I mean, I've never seen somebody. So it's funny because I come from a baseball background, and I've seen intense people before, and he is right up there with them in terms of what he's trying to accomplish. And it's actually, for me, it's interesting to watch. Like, I've only talked to him a couple of times. He probably doesn't even remember. But we had the funniest interaction At InDisc this year I was with Oh I was standing next to somebody else I forget who it was but anyways So what happened was is that Eric Stone he came up to us Because somebody had picked a certain game That he wasn't I can't remember if he wasn't Familiar with it or whatever So he was kind of you could see him going through his process Because he's not been in Too long either right Right right but you could see him going through his process that he wasn't happy about the pick, you know, but then I literally just told him, I said, well, you know, you're forgetting something. And he's like, oh yeah, what's that? I'm like, you're Eric stone. Like he just goes, yeah, you're right. I'm like, yeah, that's all it takes. When it comes to somebody like Eric stone, I don't know if a lot of people are like this, but whenever I'm really passionate about something travel, uh, I see it through a certain lens and I'm always trying to capture a story with how, you know, whether it's pinball that I love or you name it. If I get obsessed with something, I'm always seeing it through a lens, like the whole, like the thing. And like Eric Stone is one of those characters that I would love to showcase or I'd love the world to see as a showcased character when it comes to pinball. And there's so many people like that, that I'm always seeing it through the lens of how do we tell that story? How do we find a way to take that piece of entertainment and put it to the masses of people, not just pinball people, but the masses? Because they're like you said, there's so much intensity there that that needs to be shared with the world. And if we can share his passion with the world, then other people will get into pinball because they'll see that. And it's it's infectious and people will want that. So that's why I like watching Eric Stone. Keith Elwin is kind of he's a very much a 180, but his story is that he is so stoic and so
    19:13
    so quiet in some certain situations, got a sense of humor, but following him around, you know, the greatest of all time. And he doesn say anything and he avoids people There just so many damn stories with some of the people in pinball And sometimes I don feel like it is being highlighted quite enough with some of the broadcasts and stuff that we see We see a lot of play, a lot of game play.
    19:39
    But for my aunt or my cousin, just to walk up and say, hey, I know you like pinball, to be able to sit them down and say, this is why I love pinball and this is what pinball is. I don't know. I still think there's something there. Well, you hit the nail on the head, and I've heard you talk about this before on other podcasts. Sorry. No, no. I'm in complete agreement with you on this. What? You're in complete agreement? I'm in complete agreement. Hear that, Dennis?
    20:09
    And here's why. Here's why I am. Because I look at it from the standpoint of how can pinball grow and what makes it worth watching a little bit easier. And, you know, the truth is, like, I'll watch competitive pinball, but I can't really watch modern competitive pinball. Like if it's a classics tournament, something to where the rule set is simplified, games are a little bit quicker. Like I'll watch those all day long. That's interesting. And so it's one of those things that, you know, I think we're kind of on the same wavelength that I feel like if somebody could take a broadcast and edit it down, but at the same time be able to interview the people that are currently playing, even if it's after the fact, like I'm thinking like World Series of Poker. That's how they really started growing to where you got to understand these people and these characters. And, you know, even if they were kind of bringing some stuff up a little bit more than what it was, it's still made for an entertaining show. And I mean, there there is there's plenty of personalities out there. I mean, I mean, Josh Sharp is one we mentioned earlier. You know, I mean, some of the stuff he does, it's hilarious. Even while he plays, he's in pressure situations, but he's still screaming and yelling, making the crowd laugh. I mean, stuff like that to me. Just think about that, though. You said World Poker Tour. Think about, again, the lens. I'm seeing Josh Sharp. I'm seeing a 30 second intro as, you know, games are playing 30 second intro about his background, what he does for a living, him interacting in the kitchen with his kids, him pressing the start button. We've got all these little quirks. Bam. We zoom back to him. We've got a couple highlights that have pre-recorded that have happened in that tournament thus far. Early rounds kind of stuff. Bam, we go into the next player. This guy's a meteorologist. He's this by day, this by night. Boom, boom, boom. Show some of his highlights. You get about 10 of those characters, and then bam, final round. We'll show the entire final round, about a half an hour. We'll show the whole thing. But you feed those characters to lead up to that final round, to the plug for TPN. in. But right to the final round there. And then that's how people experience pinball. It's just the final round. I don't need anything else. Yeah, no, you're, you're exactly right. And it's, it's one of those things I actually had a long conversation just a couple of weeks ago with somebody that's been a tournament director for quite some time. And he's, he's a top player also. And we were talking back and forth about this. And I told him that one of the things I think would really help is when you look at these tournaments, of course, you know, they last a long time and that's natural, but then you see these live streams that are like 10, 11, 12 hours long. And I think to myself, like, it's okay that they have that, but that can't be your only content. I'm like, make it like episodic to where you have, you know, an episode that lasts 30 minutes to where you release it. And you kind of show what happens, like you said, highlights of what's happening in the early rounds. And then what got them to this tournament or, oh there's so much there yeah there i mean there's a lot i i really feel like they could really do that with the uh national heads up tournament that we have for all the state champions i feel like that's the perfect time because it's so much easier to follow you know and we were talking about before that even if they did a high stakes tournament i mentioned this just the other day that i feel like there should be a high stakes tournament for like 12 to 24 players, where it might be even a $500 entry fee. You could get somebody like Stern, Jersey Jack, Deep Root, American, whoever wants to sponsor it, and to where you actually make these games matter, to where you do have the background, you do go through the whole production and all that. And I think that that's something that would catch on. And you don't need ESPN to do this. You have YouTube. You could easily do a YouTube show, and it would get growth. I got no doubt in my mind it would get growth and it would change a lot. I mean, it really would. And there's a lot of competitive people. My co-host of the pinball show, Dennis Friesel, and co-host of the Collective Gamers podcast. There you go, Dennis. He always says, Zach, but there's such a large group of people in competitive pinball that don't want it to get any bigger. Like why? He always asks me and I always question that, too. It's a good question. Why should pinball? Why does pinball need to be bigger?
    24:40
    I end up just coming up with the bigger it is, the more resources we have, the more resources we have, the more fun we're going to have. And I know that competitors like money. I like money. And the bigger you make this thing, the more money you're going to win. Instead of just first place, you might get 20th place and win some pretty good money. And it's attention, too. Nobody can tell me they don't like attention, a grander, a larger, expanded level of attention. So yeah, when he asked that, I always questioned, he's right. It didn't have to get bigger. Why do I care if it's bigger? I don't even play. And I don't know. I think it's just wanting to be creative and wanting to expand something or make better, always evolving and always going to the next step up. Right. Well, it's not only that. It's not only that. If you're not going to do it, it's about sustainability too. If you're not going to grow, there's only one place to go. you can't stay you can't stay the same for an extended period of time you've got ways to go and just like that uh i don't know if you watched it did you watch the foosballers documentary yet i didn't i saw that promo and that's i was sold so yeah it's it's really fascinating it was so much larger than what i thought it was yeah i mean it was huge back in the 70s and they even detail what happened and how it kind of went down and how they're trying to keep it surviving and you know that's i mean we see there's your roadmap right there of how it happened why it happened and what happened afterwards and so that's why i mean i could understand that some people may not they're traditionalists they may not want something to outgrow but at the same time there's tournaments everywhere if you don't want to go to a tournament that's huge you can always find one that's not huge i mean it's really that simple i mean the foosball can do it we can do it Yeah, well, foosball, they have, okay, so they have what I think is an advantage over pinball in the sense that it's simplicity. Like, you kind of understand what the rules are. The table doesn't change much. I mean, there's a couple of different types of tables, but it doesn't change the true dynamics of what it is. And I know that that's one of the things about pinball, having different options to play in different eras. it does change the dynamics but at the same time it does make it difficult for a viewer that's not into that to follow that's why it's harder for people to you know discover it on twitch like live stream watching because you're not sure what's going on i mean yeah like if you watch call of duty you know exactly what's going on you only have to play call of duty and you can understand it after watching for about 30 seconds you'll get what's happening same thing with Yeah. I mean, the same thing with Fortnite. We can water down pinball to that degree and say, don't let the balls drain. But there's just better ways to do it. And I see some broadcasts now that will do that, where they'll have a transition, where they'll transition into, here are the highlights of what we're going to look for on this table. But man, in between my Josh Sharp piece and my Keith Elwin piece that transition right to here are the top three keys on, you know, pinball machine number four. Like and you got somebody on a green screen. He's going to try to start this. Then she's going to do this. Then they're going to. I don't know. It's just fantasy land. But man, no, you can't believe we're not pushing for something like that. You're on to something. I mean, you're on to something. And I know that there's a few people out there that are not huge competitive players, but they're involved in their local scenes, and they have very similar ideas. And I think somebody eventually is going to do it. I mean, I think it's coming pretty quick. Within the next two years, I think somebody is going to attempt that, even if it's on a small scale. I go down rabbit holes, and I'm interested in people just the same way you were just talking about it. I found myself, I can't remember his name. I was just going through YouTube, just put in pinball, and I find somebody that's at some place, I think in Georgia or somewhere, and he's just vlogging himself. I don't even know who it was. Just vlogging himself playing at a local tournament and talking about, I was genuinely interested. Okay, did this guy win? What's going on? You know, and stuff like that. What's at stake, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I get hooked on. I know that I've talked to a couple people before. that they've mentioned about doing a documentary on like Pinnberg, somebody going to Pinnberg and somebody playing, like they've talked about it before. But of course that's like a whole, it's a whole big ordeal. But I mean, things like that, people are really into the human nature and the, who's the person behind, you know, playing. I mean, it is fascinating. I think you are onto something there, but at the same time, I think also there's gotta be a way to be able to do these tournaments that helps just new people that's never seen it before that will get hooked, like bass fishing or something like that, or like golf. You're just browsing through the channels, and you see it, and you get that hook. And that's kind of what foosball is. I mean, it's crazy the views that they get. I had no idea. I mean, there's games out there, just individual games, with 50 clear up to 300,000 views. Wow. Yeah. I can't believe that. Wow. It's just bonkers. Yeah, like I'm obsessed with pinball. I'm invested in pinball. You're not going to find a lot of people more passionate about all aspects of pinball as you are myself. And I'm confused whenever I watch pinball. Now, some of you guys are rolling your eyes and shrugging, but it's true. Like, I research the hell out of things when I'm into them, and I'm still confused. There's so many rules in these different games that that's the other thing, the standardization. People are now turning off your show, Travis. I'm sorry. But finding a way to have some standardization in these games. So define what you mean by standardization, because I've heard you mention this before, and I wasn't quite clear.
    31:05
    For entertainment purposes, when I was talking about it before, I'm putting it on thick. But I think there's something here. You just pick a subset of games, and you strip them down of anything that's going to distract you. Anything that's going to distract the viewer, right? 10 games. I want an audience to get used to 10 games and not a thousand games. Variety's nice, but if I casually jump into pinball and say, okay, he's playing a machine. Then when I turn on the TV again or turn on the internet again and I see them playing another game, oh, I remember them playing that. It's just going to be hard to do that when you have a thousand different things. and everything's got its own little rule, and every table's got its own exploit. No. Well, standardize the damn things. All of them, there's 10 of them, and I've said before, strip all the licensing off and stuff like that. Make them just like a regulation basketball court, just like a regulation table tennis court, just like your foosball table. A foosball table doesn't have seven holes on one table, and then one with three hills on it. No. Just 10 of them. They're both different, so give me 10. but 10 for people to get used to. So you're talking about just the play field that in the rule set that's just standard. And that's what is at the tournament. And that's what stays consistent at different tournaments. Is that what you're talking about? Something like that. And I'm fine taking 10 of the greatest tournament based rule sets and have them on these machines. I'm fine with that. So the complexity, I'm not so much worried about. It's just I don't need so many of them. Right. If Metallica is a fantastic competition game, fine. Put the rule set of Metallica in competition series number three game. That's fine. But let's get used to number three instead of, well, we've got Metallica Pro. Oh, well, but I'm playing Metallica Premium at this tournament, and I know that the hand – no, just 10 games. It's fascinating that you mention that because I could get on board with that. Think about how good you could be at number seven. Like that's your jam. Number seven. It's standardized. You know that when you go everywhere, the same damn number seven, you're going to play just like the same Lord of the Rings. There's not much different. Just, you know, just like the same hot hand. Doesn't matter. But instead of 300 EMs that you have to learn now. But then again, a lot of people poo-poo me, but I think the skill of pinball, the true skill, should never be determined by the brain and knowledge of – I'm going to be careful – knowledge of rules alone. You're talking about just general rule set knowledge. When I'm watching basketball, LeBron James can slam that ball and he can shoot from the outside. I don't need to know that he's a damn chess player here and he knows 40,000 different plays so that he can get to the basket and sure. It's going to be easy enough to shoot for me. The true greatest pinball player is one that has ball control and shot accuracy. Sure. Making the most stacking different things and, and getting that big moment, that strategy. I get that, but I hate whenever I hate, whenever it's like an encyclopedia in your brain. And unless you can tap into all these damn algorithms, if this, then that, then this, then I stack.
    34:53
    That's not pinball to me. It's just not pinball. Yeah, I hear what you're talking about, especially when it does. I've heard many a people over the past couple of years that whenever they step up to a pin, they're already defeated simply because their lack of real knowledge. And they realize it. That's not pinball. pinball is i got a ball cradle up i got one shot can i hit that or can i not it's tight shot that's pinball i think it's it's interesting as you talk about because i haven't really ever thought about it from this angle and i'm willing to think about it from this angle just because i'm trying to rack my brain right now the hell i'm coming from well well i'm trying to rack my brain and think of any other sport or any other game to where the rules do differ from game to game over and over and over again i mean i guess that's the difference maybe but everybody that knows a poker event knows how to play it though you know but there's the distinction though yeah there's the distinction between sport and game right is chess is sport no it's all up here is um is poker a sport no it's not at all um pinball's physical like you're moving around Is foosball a sport or a game? What would you answer that?
    36:13
    Uh, you know, I'd probably say it's a, God, that's a good question. Cause I often, I asked myself if I even think pinball is a sport, but damn it to hell. I I'm, I get very sore at tournaments. I give it and I don't get sore setting my butt playing video games. So for me, it's reaction time too. Yeah, it is feel of the game. It's tactile stuff. So I think it's more. and if we're going to do the whole competition thing, if we're going to expand this and get a lot of eyes on it, it needs to be more sport based than game based in my opinion. So that's why I'm, I'm really big on, um, you know, shots, combos, that kind of stuff more so than, and that's why I bust, uh, I'm friends with, uh, Dwight Sullivan and I always bust his chops. I'm like, it's due with your multipliers.
    36:59
    People are like, how do you love ghostbusters? How do you love star Wars? Because there's moments, Dwight codes moments. Oh yeah. anybody yeah but people are like how do you like star wars with the multipliers i don't i just don't play with them yeah i don't i don't tap that action button unless i'm going for them damn tie fight that's it i don't need to if i'm working too hard in my brain but that's the difference in and that's why pinball's great everybody gets to play for a different reason uh chuck work eric wortenberger he's an accountant so his brain gets off his brain is all these neurons firing and he's like, Ooh, dopamine, not me. I'm like, Oh shit. Like this isn't fun anymore. I feel like I'm balancing a checkbook. No thanks. No thanks at all. Yeah. It's, it's one of those things that really, especially when you start playing a lot of these moderns, you have to know pretty much what leads to what, at least if you're going to compete at a high level, you have to know what leads to what and why you're going there and what are you going to do once you are there? I mean, it's it's really is it's pretty intricate you know and it's just i can see where you're coming from in terms of wanting something to be standardized to the point i you know i would actually be really fascinated by that by if there was one particular company that put out tournament style pins you know once a year or whatever whether it could be like five or six pins or whatever that were exactly that to where that's what would go on a circuit that's what would travel around that's I'm going to see those same 10 pins.
    38:31
    That's actually really fascinating. And you know that these locations, you're guaranteed to sell 10 pins every year. Boom. Yeah, because all tournament players would want to play them. These locations are going to want them there. Now, I can't take credit for this. I didn know that this was discussed before But oh what podcast was that on It might have been a loser kid They interviewed Roger Sharp and Roger Sharp had been approached in the past I don know probably decades ago of a group that was trying to do this very thing standardization of tournament-based pinball machines. So the original idea, I guess, goes to his experience. But, yeah, and I'm being loud and outrageous with some of these ideas, but I think the only way to move the stick is to get people's attention with this kind of stuff. Cause in my opinion, what I've seen since I've been in pinball the last four or five years, kind of stale at times. Yeah. Kind of stale. Well, it's, it's like, especially when you're watching pinball and you're watching it from a competitive standpoint, unless it's an SPC final, like a Stern pro circuit final or Pinberg, you know, it just, it does kind of feel redundant after a while. And you know, what's unique about the standardization thought is that, yeah, the gameplay itself could be redundant, but at the same time, like you said, you're seeing highly skilled people rise to the top to where you have to do certain things in a row. And I mean, that is fascinating. And that's why I've always, I've talked to somebody about this too, that I've often wondered if the fact that games are so complicated today, if that might actually be holding pinball back a little bit. Because when you look at pinball's heyday,
    40:22
    especially when they were making a new Gottlieb every month, there was a brand new one coming out, and they were simplified. You could know the rules within a minute. You would understand it. You could explain it even to a child. They would get it immediately. And I've always wondered if any of these companies would be willing to take a chance to release a pin that's like that. And I'm not talking like a Wonelli type pin or something like that. I'm talking, you know what I mean? Like to release something that might be more like the solid states used to be. It doesn't have to be like an EM, but even solid states, the rules are often simplified to where you're just having to do a particular thing. And I've often wondered if that's something that could benefit. Well, the problem is it didn't sell well. It was called, in my opinion, one of the greatest stern pinball machines ever made. You heard it. It's called the Beatles. That's exactly what that is.
    41:18
    Travis, you're going to call me nuts. I think the Beatles shoots better than 98% of any early solid state or EM.
    41:31
    No, you're not nuts. I just think it does. I've played a lot. Give me a Beatles or fathom please yeah not even close yeah get barricora no meteor i do love me some meteor but it's just yeah beetle and that's why it's simplified but you still get those modes you still get enough depth and complexity there uh that you're not racking your brain but you're still trying to get through modes you're still trying to get through step systems of those modes which I love. And then if you can start them all, you get your mini wizard mode. But if you can complete them all, then you get your big wizard mode. Like that's the depth that I like. And there's a difference between complexity, i.e. Dwight Sullivan multipliers or Lyman sheets, little bitty hidden rules that are that are hidden in that pinball machine versus Keith Johnson, where the Hobbit people say is deep. I hate these terms that we keep using like flow that can mean so many things. The game is deep. It can mean so many things. Dammit, you take a Keith Johnson game and Lyman Sheets game, they're both deep. They're apples and oranges. But Keith Johnson's do get a little lost in the woods there too. But the breadth is what I'm looking for. And the homeowner, a lot of times, as a distributor, I can tell you, the homeowner's looking for that as well. They want to go on a journey. They want to not see the same damn three modes every single time they play a game.
    43:02
    I love contemporary pinball. Love it, love it, love it. But, uh, and it keeps getting bigger and better. Well, it's interesting too, because just going the complete opposite direction, I actually feel like home pins don't go deep enough. Like, well, for instance, I would like to, okay, let's say you take a video game for instance, right? Okay. You know that you're going to play a campaign. Yes. Why is there not a campaign in pinball? I mean, to be fair, I think Multimorphic has something like that where you can save your progress. Yeah, well, yeah, where you could say like I'm talking about and I haven't played ice before. I played Lexi Lightspeed, but I'm meaning like like let's take Star Trek, for instance, that's behind you or even Star Wars. Anything that has lore to it. imagine if they actually had a actual story to it and they do have these stories to it. Cause they mentioned it with Jurassic park and all that. But imagine that you're actually following this journey to where, you know, you have to hit a certain amount of shots to escape this. And if you do, that'll open up this branch of the storyline. And whenever the ball stops, that scene will play out on the LCD. Like you'll see, you'll see it play out and it gives reason for you to actually look at the LCD. What about if you don't complete your task? Yeah, if you don't complete. Kill your flippers? Yeah, kills your flippers. Why not?
    44:31
    The way that I'm envisioning this, it's not a three-ball game. It could be timed. It could be timed to get to the next chapter, and you either fell or you advance, and you keep advancing on. Maybe you might have a couple of continues, and that's legitimately the game. If you drain, you just get maybe a five-second penalty or a ten-second penalty. Ooh, now you're getting a little too time-based for me now. I don't want to be in a hurry here. I don't want to be in a hurry. But I like that, though. I like the idea that it doesn't have to be regulated by three balls. You drain and you're done. You don't hit the damn shots, you might be done as well. Maybe you've earned a continue, so you're fine. But, see, I like the new ideas in pinball. So I'm all for this. Sign me up for anything like that. Not too much time-based. I don't want too much of that stuff. I want to play The Hobbit without feeling like I've got to rush through the thing. Well, it's funny. I was talking to somebody the other day, and we came up with a full concept of one of the best pinball themes I think that hasn't been done yet. Do you tell? They need to do it. I think they need to do a Mario Kart racing. I honestly think that theme needs to be done. See my face? We've got video here. Here's why. Mario Kart. Here's why. Okay. Everybody I've talked to that puts the Super Mario Brothers out on location, it kills. Okay. It absolutely kills. Does what? And Mario. But why Mario Kart? Here's why. Because it gives you reason to actually do something on the LCD in terms of racing. It gives you a reason, just like how Hot Wheels is, where you're racing, you're doing all that. It gives a race theme. so instantly the music can easily go into it. I mean, you could even the multiball to where any shots you hit, you're on a track, you're in a race, and you see yourself go because you hit a certain shot, and you have to hit that shot to make your turn. If you don't, you spin out. I mean, there's all kinds of different things you could do because we were talking about this based off the Super Nintendo Mario Kart. I like Super Nintendo. And, like, to me, something old school like that to where all of us that are in our 30s to mid-40s, the majority of us played that damn game at some point or another. I played the hell out of that game. Yeah, and that's a theme right there that would instantly attract people that's in our demographic. Okay, take Multimorphics Cosmic Kart Racing and put Mario Kart on that where you get to play and you hit certain shots and you get a mystery and then here comes the green turtle shell and you're playing to somebody across the country and here comes the block shot.
    47:17
    It's what Multimorphic could have been. Right. But I love that. Well, I think when you're talking about Multimorphic, what really struggles with them is the fact that I think the modular is what holds them back. I know that that's what they want to do to make them different from other people, you know, or try to get their product out there more. But I think the modularity actually holds them back because you have to buy a full system, right? Yeah. And all those games, like if I want to buy Heist, for instance, and I want to sell it, who can I actually sell that to?
    48:03
    Like the number of people. Yeah. The number of people that I can say, it's almost like if you're getting into multimorphic, you're all in.
    48:14
    That's the difference. I get the vision that they wanted to be more like a console type thing. I get that vision, but man, having to spend $2,000 or $3,000 or $4,000 on something and then not be able to sell it. It feels different. I don't care what people say. It feels different. It does. I mean, I've played Lexi a couple of times, and it just, you know. No themes. I just think they'll continue to spin their wheels, unfortunately.
    48:43
    And there's a lot of cool innovation there, but not for me. Yeah. Well, the problem is I just think it's just not the right innovation. They've got ball tracking, for Christ's sake.
    48:57
    Jeez. Well, I was hoping the next big innovation would be somebody that could be able to make a pinball machine that wouldn't require any wires. It's just wireless to where there's no soldering. There's no nothing. Well, everything's plugging. Yeah. Somehow everything can run off the chips or off the circuit boards without actual need for wires. Somehow it runs wireless. Like if I can get, if I can control something across the world, like that Batman, or I think it's Oktoberfest now, or my computer, how can they not figure this out from just right there if I'm hitting a flip or something wireless?
    49:41
    I mean, it's got to be done. Because I think if they did something like that, that's where you get into some interesting things to where you can have a play field that does flip in the middle of a game, kind of like a lights, camera action, except for just one little part. It could be the whole entire upper play field. It could be an upper flipper that shifts to the left side from the right side. Maybe that's what Deep Roots got.
    50:02
    That would be innovation right there to where the geometry is the whole upper. Yeah, that would be it. I love thinking about what pinball could be. I get out there. Usually it's too late at night and I need sleep. but why do pinball machines have to be the same size?
    50:26
    There's so many things I question, like why do they have to be the same length that they are? Why do they have to be a rectangle?
    50:35
    Why can't we do something there that's more interesting than Bonsai Rim? Sorry if people like Bonsai Rim.
    50:44
    There's got to be something else there. I like the creativity you have there, Mary. Well, it's interesting too, because it's like, I think we're kind of in that spot right now. And this happens in all industries to where people are going to tend to follow the industry leader for as long as they can until they can, until they can do something to disrupt everything. And really the only ones that it seems like that are really boastful about wanting to disrupt is deep root from everything that they said. Now, Are they going to actually follow up on that? I think Jersey Jack took a stab at disrupting. By trying to get into locations?
    51:28
    Right now, that's the way it seems to me. When they talked about competing directly with Stern, the place to go would be locations. Yeah, but they know what's going to get in locations. Just drop the damn price. Get the price low enough it'll go in locations. No, like just 2013, the technology that they brought forth,
    51:49
    some of the different mechanisms, some of the bill of materials that they put in to the games. I think they tried to disrupt. I think they went stagnant for a long time from, I think they went stagnant from Wizard of Oz to current day. Yeah. Not that I don't love their pens, but I think they, they set a prefaces and then they, From there on, kind of just stuck in that wheelhouse. I think that's going to change here soon. But it's hard to compete with Stern. Chicago Gaming Company, they have no desire to innovate or to break that mold.
    52:31
    Their model is working well. American Pinball? No, they don't worry about that. They just want to be relevant enough to sell pinball machines. right. Multimorphic. They're trying, but they're on a different, in a different galaxy. They're not even a different planet, different galaxy. And then deep root, it's hard to say because it's hard to see what's not there. Well, the most interesting thing about it is to, especially when you are using products or you're trying to sell products, you don't have to knock off the number one product. It meaning you don't have, you don't have to pass them up to be relevant. What you have to do is make enough space between you and number three, between you and number four. You do that, you will grab a bigger piece of the pie. I prefer some things over others. So yeah, I completely agree. I think Adidas does fine. I think Apple did really, really well as number two for a long time. So, yeah, I think that's where you see American pinball, but American pinball, they're not at number two.
    53:44
    I love talking new pinball, too. I thought you were going to bring me on and say, so is Stern really going to announce something? Oh, gosh. Is it really Toy Story next?
    53:55
    Well, people buy into this stuff. It's nuts. Yeah, there's so many different potential themes out there. And the reality is that there's multiple potential themes. It's not as if these companies, at least Stern, they don't go one theme at a time. They have several themes already. I mean, they know.
    54:19
    And it's always somebody giving information. And, I mean, it's just like Jaws. You know, come to find out the whole Jaws thing. that's what they had on the Jurassic Park play fields. That was just the name that they had on there and somebody ran with that. Now, they could have that theme. I mean, who knows? It's not really a theme I'm interested in, but they very well could. Now, Toy Story, you have my attention with Toy Story and that's just because that's something that I feel like my kids would be into. Don't lie. You're into Toy Story. I am all into Toy Story. So am I. I mean, it's anything. Well, another thing that I think would do really well is if somebody did a Disney World, like Magic Kingdom. I mean, if Jersey Jack did. I've said that for a while. Yes. I mean, you would have so many elements. You would have Pirates of the, you know, POTC in there. You would have Tron in there. You would have Haunted Mansion, which could be its own damn pin. Haunted Mansion. Slash Mountain. You get all kinds of stuff. Oh, yeah. Well, even Haunted Mansion. Space Mountain. If Spooky got a hold of Haunted Mansion, like the actual theme from Disney. I want the same ghosts in there. I want the same dance hall scene. I want the same, all of it. That would be an instant sellout. Don't give me any recreations or this is what I would like, the Haunted Mansion. No, I don't want to see Eddie Murphy. I want to ride the damn ride but have it in between my hands as a pinball machine I love that idea maybe not Hall of Presidents let's be fair what are the damn bears that are singing and dancing jamboree country something bears you don't know because you never go there whenever you go to the park I'm trying to remember or the swiss family robinson house oh yeah who really goes in that damn tree house can we not bulldoze that son of a bitch over and we don't need it we don't need it it's 2020 we're not climbing trees come on frontier lane my ass get rid of that yeah no i know exactly what you're talking about i mean there's so much though just just imagine a pinball machine in which you have the magic castle or the cinderella castle like as one of your main things like yeah in the middle oh gosh we're on to something we just need to combine our money we'll just make the damn pin and we still won't have i don't know you're doing okay i i'm a pinball distributor i don't uh there's only so much that i can i can do so what's your thoughts on guns and roses since that's i mean that's like the the secret the open secret that everybody knows at this point Yeah, the rumored Guns N' Roses, I think, is an interesting choice in theme for Jersey Jack Pinball. It really goes off the path of what they have done in their first handful of titles. I think it can work. and I'm eager to see if it is true what a Jersey Jack pinball music pin is like compared to a Data East music pin or a Stern music pin.
    57:50
    I think if Guns N' Roses happens, I don't know if we're allowed to cuss on here, but it's going to fucking rock. That's what I think.
    58:00
    But we'll see. We'll see. Well it's interesting too I don't want to give away too much From what I know What the heck Dang look at you insider Everybody talks You know how it is I just not one to go on Onto a podcast I not talking about anybody else I just saying for me I just not one to go on onto a podcast Not that I not talking about anybody else I just saying for me I just not one to go and just say whatever it is that I hearing left and right now If other people are talking about it on podcasts and stuff like that, then it becomes to where I got to enter discussion and everything. I just all of this. I kind of take with a grain of salt until I see it with my own two eyes. But you have to believe where there's smoke, there's fire. You know, you know what I mean? Does that make sense where you're hearing it from so many different places? I mean, cause the same way there's a certain theme, I'm not going to name the theme right now, but there's a certain theme that all of a sudden has taken hold. It's the exact same thing I told you about. We, we, we talk. Yeah. Just a couple of months ago that I'm like, I think this could have some legs. It's possible, but we did, we didn't come out and say anything about that a couple of months ago. We could have easily done it. And it's just, you know, it's one of those things that I think some things we speculate, on, it's probably over the target a lot closer than what we realize. And some of it is probably so far off that everybody's just laughing their ass off when they hear it. They are. I can. Yeah, they are. That's the fun part about it. It's fun. It's fun to speculate. I can understand that. It is fun to speculate. Some individuals will use that as a sense of power and they'll use it as a platform to try to harm others. And that's what I, I don't like that. But yeah, speculation is always fun. Rumors are always fun if they're presented as such. You can't, you can't say to yourself, you've heard it here. I've got the goods. Everybody else listens to me because of I'm wonderful and I've got plastic trophy. You can't say that and then say, I know I was wrong, but it's just a rumor. Why is everybody hating? Because you look like a complete asshole before the way you were saying it. Yeah, rumors are fun, but it just depends on how they are presented. Yeah, everything's got to be with a grain of salt. That's why, I mean, it's, I don't know. Even if I knew something 100% for a fact, just me personally, I would always wait just until they announce it. and like I said that's not a knock on anybody in the industry that's just kind of how I am and it's just to me I want people to be able that do discuss things with me because you know I hear different things and all that and I've told you this even you know off offline and off camera and all that I've told you you know if there's certain things I know I'm not going to spread it around and tell everybody like it's just because it's not my place and if it if it is a rumor if it is speculation that's literally what I always say always like it's i mean that's what it is i don't know when this is gonna air when do you plan on airing this um probably these people watching us right now probably sunday most likely sunday actually i could i could put it on whenever you want me to i can put it on after your stuff i could put it on directly on monday as soon as you put you know tps up we can just let's let's yeah we can see who's a better co-host me or dinden we can figure that out competition's coming out of you right now. Do you think we'll get a Stern Pinball new game announcement by this week or next week, whatever you want to say?
    61:46
    I don't think we will. Everybody's saying that. Come on. I don't think we will. First week of September. Come on. No. It makes sense. The timelines are lining up. Well, the timelines are lining up because, you know, just like if you look at what Elwynn's releases usually are, they're usually right around Pembroke. You know what I mean? Elwynn stuff, okay. Well, they usually are, like Iron Maiden, you know, and Jurassic Park. That was at Pembroke. I mean, that's usually his schedule right around that time. Now, I don't know if Elwynn's next or if Steve Ritchie's next. That's the million-dollar question. Who's coming up next? But it would make sense to me if Stern waited just for a little while longer. Just because Ninja Turtles is the only thing besides Hot Wheels out right now. And obviously Ninja Turtles is outselling Hot Wheels. So I don't really see any reason to make any announcements until you see what Deep Roots do it. Until you see what Jersey Jack's doing. Because if you really want to compete, you might as well just announce it right around that time. I mean, that would just be me if I was Stern.
    63:02
    Yeah. Dollars dry up, though. That is true. Dollars dry up. If I have a Dynamite theme that I know is going to be better than anything JJP or Deep Root are going to produce, if I throw that theme out there and I expend all those dollars, I'm not only helping my company, but I'm hurting the competition because suddenly I don't have $10,000 for an LA Jersey Jack. That's true. Do we know when Deep Root is announcing? Do we know when their tour is and all that? We know September, but we don't know. We don't know when. Same thing with Jersey Jack pinball. We've heard September. We just don't know when.
    63:47
    It wouldn't surprise me if we don't get a cornerstone from Stern until October. Honestly, but if people are hearing what people are hearing, it is what it is. I'm thinking the earliest Stern would announce something would be mid-September.
    64:01
    That's what I'm thinking. I don't think we're far off from it at all. I just don't see. You're hearing it from me. I don't see any vaults. I don't see two more cornerstones. I don't see any of it. Yeah. I see one more cornerstone the rest of the year. That's what I see. Yeah. Now, maybe they squeeze in a nice little niche Kapow title in there. I don't know. But I don't see a cornerstone soon. But we're not told these things as dealers, so I have no – I legit have no clue. It's interesting, too, because there's no shows, really. The only show that might possibly happen is the Houston Arcade Expo in November. That's right. And even then, that's still on shaky ground.
    64:46
    Yeah. I mean, I don't even know. I've got my room for TPF, but I'm not holding my breath that that event is going to happen. Man, I miss my shows.
    64:59
    I mean, it's tough. It's tough. It is. We've got a lot going on in September. Well, even we probably won't see anything from CGC. We're not going to see anything from CGC in September. There's that. But you know what? they do call me the topper king right yes that's what i'm well aware of this and that's that's how i sign people's five by eights anyway uh so they call me the topper king and i i i am here to give you a little bit of news air traps all right let's hear it the cgc is now shipping the domestically the medieval madness remake accessory kits your rgb lighting kit your topper kit right and your XL display.
    65:49
    There you go. There's some news for you. CGC is now starting to ship those. We got our first shipment in today. Really? And didn't they just have like a Royal Edition or something like that? The Royal Edition that included all of those accessories. But for the first time, CGC said, hey, since we've made Medieval Madness years back as LE, in order to make yours just as special, you can now buy the topper and put it on your medieval madness remake that you got five years ago or two years ago, or hell just this year alone. If you've got a classic, you want to put a topper on there, bam, you get a topper. If you want to put a RGB lighting in there, boom, upgrade it. You get RGB lighting. So there was a big delay with those kits and they're just now starting to ship. So you're going to start seeing your buddies and locations have maybe have a classic medieval madness remake, but that big extended XL display with the RGB lights and everything, it's going to be awesome. Yeah, that'd be pretty sweet. Yeah, so there goes some news. Can I make a confession right now? I would love to hear it, yeah.
    66:57
    I am not a topper guy. We were doing so well. You like Star Wars, I like Star Wars. You've seen the need for entertainment and competitive pinball, making it short and sweet. I see. I do have one topper. I have the Hot Wheels topper.
    67:18
    I have that topper. That's the one topper I have. Okay, this will crack you. This is how bad I am about toppers. Oh, you're going to break my heart here. This one will make you furious. You might just turn off your whole computer when I tell you this. When I was at N-Disc, Black Knight was there, right? Yeah. And that was back in January Before the Black Knight Topper was even out I had the prototype there It's Topper Watch baby I'm always watching Guess what was on that Black Knight It was the prototype Topper The whole time Guess who didn't realize that even though he played it Five times How did you not see a talking head I didn't even know I was so focused in I was like Eric Stone just focused in on the game That's what it was I had no idea somebody mentioned that the topper was there I was like an idiot I'm like oh cool where is it like it's it's it's on the game on the top dumbass it's like I had no idea that's fantastic so you're not a not a big topper guy well I'm not the type that looks too much at the pin at least while I'm playing I could understand I can holy shit I see premium le models behind you well they're all there i love what's inside them you know i had to get the le iron maiden oh i didn't even realize i just learned today that there's a hole on the top part of the back box for the topper i didn't even know there's a hole up there oh boy you know what else it's for now i do and that's exactly what i used it for for an hdmi hdmi direct feed by stirring pinball And that works great. That's so much easier, ordering boards from China.
    69:07
    That's quite the interesting thing you had going on with that. Yeah. Now, do you still have like 80 of those, I hope? No, I didn't get sent my second shipment. So the original 30 that I ordered, we ordered at Flippin' Out Pinball. We got those out. Majority of them went to some of your mainstreamers that you hear from out there. A lot of them, those that were part of TPN got them free of charges. Thank you for doing all they do for the community. And we want to continue to extend that.
    69:41
    And once they officially announced them, then we'll continue to support streamers by doing giveaways and trying to get these into everybody's hands. Do we have an idea of when it will be an official product? I did ask and I did not receive an answer.
    70:03
    Did you get a no comment or did you just get a straight up just nothing? I got a no response. Look, Stern loves me, but I hustle. I'm ambitious. I don't like to not know what's going on for my customers and selfishly for myself. So if questions need to be asked, I'll ask them. and I respect them enough, they don't want to answer them.
    70:30
    I've got friends that work there. So when they don't answer, I know what it means. It just means I'm not going to answer you. Yeah. It's fine. I mean, it's I'm glad that that product is out and is coming out, though, because it's something to me. That's yours, right? Well, yeah. I mean, it's well, the way that I see it, too, you know, not only I see it from just even a different point of view. I think not only could it be used for streaming, but when you have people that put, you know, screens up in arcades that show what's going on in the play field, there's nothing that says that they can't put a smaller screen up that shows the LCD to where you can actually see what's going on. I did totally name drop you on the last episode of the pinball show. I don't know if you listened yet, but you will hear you being name dropped for that very idea of putting it on the head as a topper, putting it on a side display. I gave you credit. Yeah, I appreciate it. I just think something like that just because it's just it'd be a lot easier to know what's going on, especially even at tournaments or at an arcade. Just just watch it and just get a general idea of what's happening. There's so many different applications that you can use for it as opposed to just streaming. And it's just nicely done. It hooks up easy. I think that individuals, whenever you are able to get those, you're going to be really happy with the with the ease of that installation. and the setup and all that, you're going to love that thing. And I haven't told you this, but look, you've got to stay on your toes, baby, whenever you have me in here.
    72:03
    Speaking of giveaways, can I give away something to one of your viewers? Can we do that? Yeah, let's do it. Hell yeah. What do you got? This is courtesy of Marv Loco. Flipping out pinball, you've been gracious enough to allow us to sponsor your program here. So we would like to give not one, but two things away. How about it? Let's do it. There you go. Stern has a brand new product that we're going to be giving away. Not a pinball machine, not a topper. Chill out, people. Come on. I've already given away a adapter. So we're going to give away Stern. I think this is a new product. They've just now released. And we have them in stock at Flippin' Out Pinball. They are glass covers. Have you seen these yet? No. Are you talking about like when you pull off the glass or every time that I go play one of my games, I can't keep these things clean all the time. So there's dust and there's fingerprints. My kids are sticking the cheesy fingers. They're gross. So Stern has created a nice like mat that you lay over your over the glass when it's when the game is not being played. and it's beautiful too. It looks good. So it's cosmetic and it prevents all the dust from building up or all the cheesy fingers. And we're going to give two of those away to one to each of two listeners. Is that what you got that watches? Yeah.
    73:36
    Damn. We're going to give them away here. No, I was just saying because I'm on here this episode. So to get this, to win this, here's what I would like to do. Travis, you tell me if this is okay. I will ship out free of charge in the continental United States. If you needed to go overseas, talk to me. We'll figure something out. But I think all they need to do to win one of these is to share a link to this video on their Facebook page. What do you think? That's fair enough. It takes five seconds. Yeah, that's a brilliant idea. Look at you. You know exactly how to get things going, don't you? I mean, I just like giving away stuff for free and people win it for free. Who wouldn't? If you don't, right now, if you're still watching this after him and I have been talking for like a damn hour plus, if you don't just do this for five seconds, I don't know what's wrong with you. Just do it really quick. Copy the video, paste it into your Facebook. Make sure to tag Travis. Where do you want him to tag you at, though? That's the thing. Do you have anything? How do people are going to know? I don't even know. I'm on Facebook, but I'm not on Facebook, if that makes sense. Oh, jeez. Like I'm there, but not there. I tell you what, all you got to do is tag Flippin' Out Pinball or myself, Zach Minney, any of that. You tag it somewhere so that I know who Travis can randomly select, and we'll get you out a brand new free Stern Pinball decorative glass cover for your pinball machine. There you go. People are going to want these, and they're affordable. They're like $40, right? Hopefully they're official or they'll go up in price. They're like $40 plus shipping. They're nice.
    75:19
    We're going to get you some back there. I see all those sterns. Oh, gosh. Yeah, I could have a sternament in here pretty much. Hell yeah. But, man, that is awesome. I really do appreciate it. And, Zach, I appreciate you being here tonight so much. It was an enlightening conversation. I actually feel like, again, you're on to something with the tournament pins and everything. I love hearing that. I think that's a conversation that needs to be had, and it doesn't have to be at every single tournament. But there's certain portions. Just give us one, right, Travis? Just give us one. Let us show the world what we can do. I think it would be interesting. I really do. Plus, I appreciate you being here, talking, doing everything. I was thrilled when you asked, man. Is there anything else that you'd like to add? I think you ended this on a bang. Oh, my gosh. of course, I'm the plug master. Come on. If you're ready to buy a brand new pinball machine, sometimes used, or a beautiful topper, or an Escalera stair climbing hand truck, legit. You're going to carry a 300-pound pinball machine with you and your drunk buddies upstairs? Okay. You can go to the hospital for that. But cheaper, you can buy an Escalera. It goes right up the stairs with the pinball machine. I can do it by myself. So that's really nice. And then any more, man, if you want adapters, if you want you name it, if it's pinball and pretty soon, I haven't announced this yet, we're going to be selling more than just pinball machines. Oh, really? Whoa, straight down the middle is about to take a little turn too. Really? For that, yeah. So if you'd like to get a hold of anything pinball or fun related, check out our website at FlippinOutPinball.com It's flip the letter in out pinball.com. This is why I get so much shit because people don't like me doing this or call me at 8 1 2 4 5 7 9 7 1 1. You can email me to Zach at flipping out pinball.com. There you go. The hardest working man in pinball right there. You're the greatest. You're, you're going to be the fastest growing pinball media that I, I cannot consume enough every time you come out with a stream or a video or something like that. And if I, if I've consumed too much, hell, I just call you on the phone as a friend. So thanks for being my friend, and thanks for all that you do in pinball and growing this industry. I appreciate that. Oh, where'd it go? There you go. Oh, no.