We're going now to the West Coast, Seattle to be specific, because joining us right now, Anthony Van Winkle of Paradigm Tilt. Hello, Anthony. Hello, Jeff. Pleasure to be here. Thank you for doing this. I saw the video, first of all, on funwithbonus.com, kind of a gameplay video of Swords of Vengeance, the sequel to Swords of Fury. It's been 20 years since we've seen what's happened to Lion Man, And now with your sequel and kit upgrade, we can see this and maybe even bring it into our own homes, too. So we'll get to that in a second. But I want to talk about Paradigm Tilt and what you've been doing because you, a self-proclaimed casual pinball player, but fascinated by the mechanics of pinball, a lot of us are. But we don't go and build or do re-themes. We enjoy what we play, but you've taken it a whole other level. Yes. I have this tendency in my life to get really obsessed with things, and it just so happened a couple of years ago I was getting into pinball as an adult for the first time, and I was really, really digging Game of Thrones and loved the play field, loved the gameplay, loved all the different strategy and decisions you could make. And at the same time, I was super into Mass Effect, the entire Mass Effect trilogy, but Mass Effect 2 most of all. And I thought, you know, Mass Effect 2, the game, the video game, has a lot of choices. It has a lot of missions. It's really a shame that nobody made a pinball game out of this because it fits perfectly. It's like, well, if nobody else did it, then I guess it's up to me. So I did some research, found the mission pinball framework as an open source solution so anybody can start making a pinball game. I had a Game of Thrones machine that I could use for prototyping. I just started piecing it together. One thing led to another, and now there's a Mass Effect pinball machine. my house. And it's gorgeous too. You've taken it to the Northwest show and maybe Portland or somewhere else in that area. I'd love to see what you've done because I've seen the videos on Paradigm Tilt and you can check them out too on YouTube, an easy subscription. You should definitely watch Anthony's videos. And the first time I looked at that, I'm like, oh, this is virtual. There's no way because the GI, the graphics, everything. No, it's a real machine. It's fantastic to look at this thing. And yeah, you can tell it's the framework of Game of Thrones, but the art, the call-outs, the video assets, you've done it all. Well, thank you. And I can't take credit for this, but one of the beauties of using Mass Effect as the theme is that everything is there. I originally play on console, but I bought a PC version of the game and cracked open all the assets. So I had all of the music, all of the dialogue that was recorded for the game. If I needed artwork, I could take a screenshot or record some gameplay. So I had everything at my disposal from the beginning. So I didn't have to hire artists. I didn't have to get voice recordings or write a script or anything. It was all there ready to go. So that allowed me to put together play field artwork and plastics, record myself playing the game to put on the screen and pull in all of the music and dialogue from the original game files. so it really feels like Mass Effect. And that's, you know, of course I couldn't sell it. There are so many licensing and all the voice actors and all that stuff. It's strictly a homebrew machine. But having all of that material available from the source made it very easy to make something that is beautiful and covered in artwork and has full video and sound and all the things that you would hope for in a game. You talked about your love for the video game and especially Mass Effect 2. I've often wondered why there haven't been more pinball machines themed after classic video games. I know we've had some in the past going way back. We had Baby Pac-Man. We had even Defender, if you could get your hands on it. Of course, there was the novelty of Joust. And let's not even talk about Super Mario Brothers. I guess Street Fighter II is another one. I mean, video games have evolved so much. I can see a Call of Duty game. I can see a Halo game. Like you say, Mass Effect. I'm surprised we're not seeing more of this. I am as well. Well, Halo is one I've thought about quite a bit because the design, I mean, what do you do in Halo? You run around and you shoot things. What do you do in pinball? You flip a ball around and you shoot things. Having different modes, having locations, all those assets, I feel like Halo would be a perfect pinball theme. And, yeah, a lot of modern games where you have different quests, you have different modes, you have these mechanics. Because video games like pinball, they primarily focus on game mechanics where you are going somewhere, hitting switches, or launching projectiles, like the pinball pretty much writes itself. So I'm also surprised. I don't know if it's just licensing or the pinball market isn't big enough yet, but hopefully we do see more of these modern titles getting that pinball adaption. Let's talk about something that's a free video game like Fortnite. How is that not a possible pinball theme? These video games outsell certainly pinball machines, and in some cases they make more money than major motion pictures. It's big business. It's a perfect fit for pinball machines, so hopefully we see more of that in the future. I agree. I mean, a lot of homebrew people will certainly take those video games and TV shows and things and make their games out of them. But, yeah, I think it's a matter of licensing. But if you can get the licensing when you're hiring your composer, when you're getting your voice actors, say, this is for the video game and related media, I think there's a huge market there. Well, maybe not a huge market, but a pinball-sized market. I think there's a big market in the pinball world for sure, Anthony. And you mentioned the homebrew community. I have not made a machine myself. I know several people in the homebrew community, and their passion is greater than most in the pinball community. It's just extremely helpful to one another. Everyone wants to see everyone succeed. It's exciting when these years and years of projects become a reality, like Mass Effect and like Swords of Vengeance, which we'll talk about in a second. What does the homebrew community mean to you? It is fantastic. It is a great home. And like you said, it is very supportive, very helpful. Because with pinball, you're talking about a 300-pound machine full of electronics and wiring and artwork. So there's no protectiveness. There's no concern that somebody is going to steal your idea or steal your game. So if somebody has a question, I'm trying to make a mode that lights these shots. I'm trying to advance a progression ladder in this way. Everybody who's been there is more than happy to help because it's all about getting more pinball into the world. So there's the forum on Pinside. There are a number of Slack communities that are great. MPF has a very robust Google forum where people post questions and give feedback on each other's projects. And then there's the shows themselves. I mean, they are geographically centralized. so it's hard to get a huge group of people because we are very spread out. But it's a rich community. People are always sharing updates, giving tips on how to bend metal or how to 3D print objects or just how to write a really cool mode code with cool light shows and stuff. So it is a fantastic community, and nobody could do this alone. I mean, the sheer scale of doing a homebrew machine, because it not just coming up with a game code and writing the modes You have artwork you have assets you have video and animations and sound sure You also have woodworking to cut your play field and build your cabinet You have electronical engineering for setting up your bumpers and your coils and flippers and wiring everything, checking your voltages, making sure you're not overloading anything and it's all safely grounded. So there's so many different aspects to it. And one of the great things about the community is people finding each other. You know, one person has a great idea for a game and wants to write out all the rules and make all the artwork for it, but they don't know how to use a soldering iron. Well, somebody else who's really good with electronics but doesn't have the eye for, you know, steaming a game, they can find each other online and they can work together to build a game. So whatever your interest is or whatever your skill set is, like, there is a place for you in the pinball community and you can help to make games. Don't you love seeing the homebrew community be embraced by the masses, too? I mean, you're not doing it for that reason. You're doing it for the passion of building this and creating something and the support within the homebrew groups. But when, you know, years ago, Keith Elwin builds Archer and all of a sudden it's his resume to get into Stern. Scott Gullix creates Legends of Valhalla and Wrath of Olympians before that. And now he's got a game mass produced by American Pinball. Ryan McQuaid. The list goes on and on of all these people that have really just done some homebrews and now look at them. Yeah, it is a calling card because of the commitment it takes. This is not an easy hobby or a cheap hobby, and homebrew is just above and beyond. So it takes years to put a game together. It costs more than a pinball machine. The analogy that I enjoy is it's like buying a new car by going to the auto parts store and getting them piece by piece. Because you do. You go to Pinball Life or you go to Marco and you order a couple of flippers and you order a pop bumper and you order some connectors and then you order some wire and you're piece by piece putting together this monstrosity. And then, of course, you realize that your play field, the shot doesn't line up, so you have to cut a new play field and move all the parts. So it is not for the faint of heart. So anybody who does complete a machine, like that is a testament not only to their love of pinball, but their drive and their commitment to finishing something because it is a large piece of work. and anybody who finishes one should be commended just on having the gumption to stick it through because there are good days and there are bad days, and there are times when nothing works and you just want to throw it all away. So, yeah, I say anybody who completes a homebrew machine should be front of the line for any position in the company. I know the first time I got my hands on a homebrew, and more than just once or twice or in a few flips, was Mark in the City who created A Nightmare Before Christmas years ago and won a Twippy Award for it, in fact. and I was just in awe of, first of all, that you built this from scratch, but also forget that. If I'm lining this up and I think you had Sopranos beside it and other games, I'm like, I could play this all day. This is a lot of fun. I mean, you as the creators know that, oh, there's more that has to go in there, but us as the players, we're like, we don't know that. We just know it's fun right now. It's only going to get better? Great. Awesome. Yeah. I have to give a huge shout out to Mark as well because I saw his game, I saw Nightmare Before Christmas at an expo a number of years ago. I was just getting started with Mass Effect, and a number of folks on the forums and on Slack had posted some of their CNC machines and their fancy welding equipment and all this stuff, and I was feeling overwhelmed. I was feeling like, I'm just a guy in an apartment trying to build a pinball game. Maybe I'm in over my head. But I went to expo, I played Nightmare Before Christmas, I talked to Mark, and he explained, like, he built it all by hand. He doesn't have a CNC machine. He doesn't have all this fancy equipment. He just stuck with it and built it by hand. And I saw how beautiful it was and how complete and perfectly honed it was. I was like, all right, it is possible. I can make this work. If Mark can build this, I can build Mass Effect. And that really reinvigorated me and inspired me to keep going and pushing through. And, yeah, Mass Effect was cut by hand. I printed up the layout on paper, and I got some carbon copy paper and traced it onto the wood, got my little hand router, cut it out, three play field iterations, and, you know, it works like a dream. I have a CNC now, so for future projects I'll be using the CNC. But, yeah, Mark really was a good resource. He was very helpful, very supportive, and got me moving forward when I thought that, you know, I didn't have all the fancy pieces necessary. He's like, no, you can do it. It is possible. And, you know, here we are. It's nice to hear that inspiration story. And I'm sure he and others have inspired others to do this. But you talk about Mass Effect and it was a Game of Thrones kind of layout. And you still have to change a lot on that. And it's not, oh, this is cutting corners. This is making it easier. I saw what Jake Danzig did with his Dukes of Hazzard re-theme of Paragon. Yeah, it's the Paragon layout, but it's completely different. the rules just like you've done with Mass Effect 2. And we're going to get into swords because that is really changing it up. But I can't even think how many hours it took you to do that first game, Mass Effect 2. Yeah, I don't want to think about it. Like you said at the beginning, I'm a pretty obsessive guy. And when I'm in it, I'm in it. So I can only imagine it was full time for a long time. Yeah. And Game of Thrones, I mean, that was definitely a mitigating factor for me because, for example, every homebrew person struggles with how am I going to build the structures that I need? Do I need a 3D printer? Do I need a vacuum form? How am I going to get this play field up and running? I go to the pinball store and I buy a set of Game of Thrones ramps and I'm done. So using the Game of Thrones layout as sort of the starting point meant for the ramps, for the diverters, for lining up the shots. I mean, I'm not a pinball architect. I don't know how wide a shot needs to be when it's this far up the play field or what the ideal angles are. So starting with that template of a game that I know shoots well, that I know has a good play field, and making some modifications. You know, I don't really enjoy the dragon kickback on Game of Thrones. It's a tiny little lane that shoots the ball right back at the flippers, and it's sort of a pain. So I turned that into an orbit loop that feeds a ball lock instead of locking balls in the ramp, which improves the speed. You know, we can whip through the orbit real quick and throw it right back at the flippers, which is still fun. But when you're shooting the center ramp and it goes down, you don't have to deal with a bunch of balls stacked up there. So little changes like that give it, you know, a different feel, and they give it a little special something that suits the game. Oh, it's a big difference for sure. I mean, I enjoy it. I think it's very satisfying to hit that shot and have it whip under the ramp and shoot straight back down. But it also means that I didn't have to build it from scratch. I didn't have to design the play field from scratch and go through iteration after iteration saying, oh, this entrance is too wide or, oh, that shot's too hard to hit. Sure, some shots are hard to hit, but if Stern's going to do a production run on this play field, I can be confident that it's going to work for my game. That brings us to Swords of Vengeance, the sequel to Swords of Fury. Lion Man is back, and we saw the video I mentioned I saw it on Fun With Bonus, and we'll link it on Pinball Profile as well. This was at Expo in October, and for some reason, either it was down or I didn't see it, because I flock to the homebrew section whenever I go to a big show like that, because that where maybe future games of tomorrow are and just different ideas and it I not saying this because I talking to you I said it on podcasts before It my favorite part of the show Now people if you have a Swords of Fury you can do this upgrade with Paradigm Tilt and get this kit to upgrade it to Swords of Vengeance. Explain how this all came about. I enjoy the open source community. I enjoy writing code and writing software. So as I was building Mass Effect, it's built on the open source mission pinball framework. and that is using a language that I understand. So when I got into Mass Effect, you know, I started with simple things, but as it got more complicated, I was like, oh, well, MPF doesn't really support this, so I'm going to make a little adjustment so that it can support it. And piece by piece I started incrementing, you know, some of the functionality of MPF and adding new features, adding more variations, because one of the things with a project like this is MPF supports everything that the people who wrote it needed to do. And here I come in and I need to do different things. Fortunately, I have the skills to extend MPF to do that. So I became a contributor and I started working with the MPF folks, with Brian and Jan and Quinn, helping to build out MPF and make it more robust and helping answer people's questions. So when the FAST team was working on their retro platform, that needs MPF support. And so I had met them. They're local to the Seattle area. So Aaron at Fast Pinball reached out to me saying, hey, we're working on this new system to support older games. Can you help out with the MPF side of things? Can you help it out so we have the hardware, but people who are working on the software need to be able to interact with these machines? And they delivered a whitewater to my house, and I started building a game based on the Harley Quinn TV show, which is another thing that I love, just as a way to interact with the retro platform to figure out what MPF needs to know, how it's going to work. And that's sort of the basis for some of the conversion kits like No Good Gophers and some of the other games that are in progress. One of the challenges with the retros is the System 11, because System 11 did a lot of funky stuff. WPC 95 and 98 are fairly modern games. They have DMDs. They have plenty of coils. But the System 11, they had a lot of hacks. They had a lot of sort of sneaky little things they did to deal with not having enough coils or not having enough addresses, you know, matrix lights, AC relays and things like that. So I was like, OK, if we're going to successfully build the retro platform to support System 11, I've got to get a System 11 game in here. And was that the first choice, Swords of Fury? We analyzed a number of different games based on how available they were, how complex they were, what we could do with them. Swords of Fury is a very uncommon game. I'd only seen it once, and that was at Expo a number of years ago. I have never seen it in the wild. I don't know anybody who owns it prior to talking to the Fast Guys. But I remember seeing it at Expo, seeing all those bridges going across, hearing the music, and just falling in love with it. And I thought, well, that's a game that I would really enjoy. And I'm a big fan of the 80s swords and sorcerer movies, like the Sorceress and Deathstalker, those types of very campy 80s movies. And Swords of Fury is exactly that. So I love the artwork. I love the theme. I love the tone. And that play field is so underutilized. I mean, those games, they didn't have a lot of rules. Yeah, so you've got all these bridges. You've got the diverters, the locks, all this fun stuff, but not really any substance to it. I mean, what do people love about Swords of Fury? They love Lion Man, and they love the soundtrack. What do people not like about it? It takes you five minutes to learn the rules, and then you just do multiball over and over and over again. So it's a great play field, it's a great layout, but not a lot of depth. So that seemed like an ideal candidate for me, because working with Game of Thrones and Mass Effect, I can take a play field and come up with new rules, new ways to go through it, turn it into a more complex game. But since this is going to be a kit project, You know, there's not going to be original artwork. You're stuck with what's on the play field. You know, you can do a different back glass and different plastics, but the core story, the core theme of the game needs to carry over. And I thought, well, Swords of Fury, there is no story. There's this artwork that you can infer a story from, but it is a blank canvas as far as who's Lion Man, what's the demon doing there, why are they fighting orcs, and all this stuff. so as I, okay, I can make a story out of that I can come up with the backstory of what happened in Swords of Fury take that into the future with Swords of Vengeance create new characters, create a new conflict and everything in Swords of Vengeance will therefore make sense with the artwork that's already on the playfield but then you have a new game with modern rules multiballs, modes, progression ladders, mini wizards all the kind of things you would expect but it still makes sense, you don't have to strip the playfield to put on a hardtop or something like that. I love this idea. I said it before, and my good buddy Martin Robbins and the team at Haggis Pinball have done an exceptional job doing something similar to this with Fathom 2.0. And you can play the original, you can play the new story. It's upgraded 40 years later. You've kind of done some similar things too without really adjusting the play field, but the rules and the animations. You've made Swords of Vengeance and now Swords of Fury a little more desirable to get. That's one of the downstream effects. We saw the same with Funhaus. When Pedretti announced Rudy's Nightmare, the retail price of a Funhaus went through the roof. So again, Swords of Fury is very rare, so I don't expect to see a huge increase in sales because the people who have them obviously love them. But it does give new life to a machine, so something that somebody might be holding on to just for nostalgia or for the occasional lion man. My hope is that those machines can come back into regular rotation and be something that people turn on for an engaging play for a night time of good pinball instead of just, oh yeah, I loved that or I loved it before and I'm holding on to it. So that is the hope. You know it's a love game when Scott Denisey puts it in TNA as one of the mystery awards. It pops up, if you look carefully, it says lion man and everyone's like, yeah.