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Zen Interview Retrospective

BlahCade Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·49m 5s·held·Nov 26, 2015
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.026

TL;DR

BlahCade reflects on Zen Studios interview, 3D pinball testing, and reconciles TPA vs Zen design philosophies.

Summary

Chris Friebus and Jared Morgan discuss their recent interview with Zen Studios (Bobby Balama) about digital pinball development. The hosts share technical experiences testing 3D gameplay on TPA and Zen PS3, analyze Zen's development pipeline (6-8 months concept-to-release vs TPA's monthly model), and reflect on how understanding each platform's unique artistic vision resolved their longstanding comparisons. Key insight: Zen strategically distributes licensing costs across table packs to maintain consistent pricing, similar to TV's 'box episode' model.

Key Claims

  • Zen Studios has roughly 20+ people working on Pinball, making it their primary revenue driver

    high confidence · Chris and Jerry discuss takeaways from interview with Zen Studios representative (Barbie/Bobby Balama)

  • Zen's development cycle from concept to release is 6-8 months of planning/development, compared to TPA's 1-month turnaround

    high confidence · Chris and Jerry analyze interview details about Zen's development timeline

  • Zen releases approximately one table pack per quarter (4 per year), with 2-3 tables per pack depending on franchise

    medium confidence · Jerry estimates Zen's release schedule based on interview discussion

  • Zen uses 'box episode' pricing strategy—hiding high licensing costs in low-cost tables to maintain consistent overall pricing

    high confidence · Chris explains Zen's strategy based on interview with Barbie/Bobby Balama

  • TPA's 3D effect on PS3 is more severe than Zen's 3D, requiring eye-crossing sensation similar to Magic portraits

    high confidence · Chris describes personal testing of 3D functionality on both platforms

  • Both Zen and TPA place the DMD/score display too far forward in 3D space, causing eye strain when looking up

    high confidence · Chris tested both platforms and sent feedback to Farsight (Flippy Floppy)

  • PS3 AV receiver routing introduced input lag; direct TV connection eliminated the lag

    high confidence · Chris tested multiple connection configurations on his LG TV with PS3

  • Farsight has to pay double licensing fees—both Zen Studios license Williams/Bally/Stern licenses

    medium confidence · Chris speculates on licensing cost differences between Farsight and Zen

Notable Quotes

  • “I was really surprised at the team size and how many people I have working on this, like Pinball in particular. I kind of had a feeling that Pinball was their primary, like, revenue driver. But just the amount of staff on Pinball, that explains a lot, really.”

    Jared Morgan @ ~mid-episode — Key takeaway from Zen Studios interview revealing organizational structure and resource allocation

  • “this is its thing it's going to have you know splashy effects it's going to have moving animated things it's not going to try and be an absolute table and i'm commending them for it”

    Chris Friebus @ ~late-episode — Philosophical acceptance of Zen's unique artistic direction vs comparing to photorealistic simulation

  • “we're all of them speculating. We're like, what? Microsoft have deep pockets, but then it's like, well, Microsoft isn't publishing it on all platforms. They don't publish it on the PS3 and the PS4.”

    Chris Friebus @ ~end-episode — Discussion of Microsoft's role and publishing limitations for Zen Studios

  • “it's story first when they're doing the table and then you know they want to create that narrative when you're actually playing pinball and you know in real life um tables they're they're only just starting to do that now because they have the software programming ability to do that”

    Jared Morgan @ ~mid-late-episode — Explains Zen's narrative-first design philosophy vs real pinball tables' constraint model

  • “it was like, okay, I think there's I think I figured it out. We'll see. So then I switched back to the, you know, plugging in through the receiver. Sure enough, it was back to my timing not being there.”

    Chris Friebus @ ~early-episode — Technical troubleshooting of lag issue isolating receiver as root cause

Entities

Chris FriebuspersonJared MorganpersonBobby BalamapersonZen StudioscompanyFarsight StudioscompanyThe Pinball ArcadeproductZen PinballproductBlahCade Podcastorganization[name withheld pending review]personNorm WurzpersonMedieval MadnessgameMicrosoft

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Zen Studios prioritizes story-first narrative design with animated effects over photorealistic table simulation, fundamentally different from TPA's approach

    high · Jerry: 'story first when they're doing the table and then you know they want to create that narrative when you're actually playing pinball'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Zen Studios maintains ~20+ person team for Pinball production, enabling 6-8 month development cycles with high polish; contrasts with TPA's 1-month monthly release model with smaller team

    high · Jerry: 'I was really surprised at the team size and how many people I have working on this, like Pinball in particular'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Zen uses 'box episode' model to distribute high licensing costs across table pack releases, maintaining consistent consumer pricing while internally allocating budget variably

    high · Chris: 'we're going to hide our high costs of licensing and put them inside the low-cost tables' / 'it's always going to cost you the same'

  • ?

    technology_signal: TPA and Zen both use 3D on PS3 but with different intensity levels; TPA's implementation creates severe eye-crossing effect requiring adjustment, Zen allows slider control

    high · Chris: 'with tpa it was almost double images' vs 'zen has a slider for how much of the 3d effect you want'

  • ?

    product_concern: Both TPA and Zen position DMD/score display too far forward in 3D space, causing eye refocus strain and discomfort during gameplay; needs relocation to background

    high · Chris: 'bringing your eye up and looking, it's a complete refocus in 3D. That hurts the eyes' / sent PM to Flippy Floppy about fix

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.147

0:00
You're listening to the Cade Podcast. wizard amusement.com the site to visit for custom pinball shooter rods easy to install totally unique mention blockade podcast for 10 off your order wizard amusement.com sales restoration customization
0:46
you are listening to the blockade podcast i am your host chris freebus aka shut your trap joining me as always my co-host jerry margan hello everybody and uh kai will not be the fuss today because we were recording at a much later time than normal and therefore it's like what, four or five in the morning for him, some ungodly hour. Yeah. It's very early for him and the only reason why we're doing it this time is because I'm daddy daycare this week. Woohoo! Or not.
1:26
Yes and no. It's been okay. I had my expectations set pretty low. But yeah, it's going okay. They're still alive, the kids. So this is a good start. They're still breathing. They're not complaining about hunger. So, yeah. Pretty good, really? Yeah. That's all you can ask, right? Yeah, that's right. It's a win, really.
1:50
I'm prepared for this podcast. For those of you that are on Blab and watching this live, you'll be able to see that I am wearing my education is important, but pinball is important-er t-shirt. And if you're on Blab, you will see me proudly supporting the for amusement only EM and bingo pinball podcast shirt from Nick Baldridge. which apparently is only in Queensland so I'm the only one who actually got one. Let's see we're showing off our street cred right now which doesn't matter to the just podcast listening audience but those with the visual medium will appreciate it those in the visual medium also will notice that Jared is trying to do his best impersonation of me and he shaved his head although he didn't go full tilt razor to the dome he just went to the number one blade yeah number one straight off I didn't want to go quite the level of the Chromedome. Number one, because they didn't have the wax, so I couldn't really shine it up.
company
PlayStation 3product
  • ?

    operational_signal: PS3 routing through AV receiver introduces measurable input lag affecting pinball timing; direct TV connection eliminates lag issue

    high · Chris tested timing on multiple connection paths: receiver added lag, direct TV connection resolved it

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Both hosts describe achieving acceptance of each platform's unique design vision rather than expecting convergence or simulation accuracy; philosophical shift from comparison mindset

    high · Chris: 'I am used to it. Why am I trying to make it into something that does not' / 'it's unfair to compare them to anything else because they're not like really anything else'

  • ?

    business_signal: Farsight pays dual licensing fees (Zen platform license + Williams/Bally/Stern table licenses), while Zen only pays single license for original tables; structural cost disadvantage for Farsight

    medium · Chris: 'Farsight has both the license and the license to Williams, Bally, Stern. So really, it's a double dip'

  • ?

    product_launch: Zen targets approximately 1 table pack per quarter (4 annually) with 2-3 tables per pack; strategic quarterly release schedule vs TPA's monthly single-table model

    medium · Jerry: 'four releases a year. One every quarter. A table pack every quarter. And there's two or three tables depending on the thing'

  • 2:47
    But also, too, because I don't usually have my hair this short because, frankly, my wife thinks I look like a criminal when I have it this short.
    2:55
    Yeah, I tend not to actually have it this short that often, but, jeez, it's so nice in summer because we are in summer here in Australia, and it's just lovely to be able to have the breeze just coast over the top of the dome and you know caress the top of your head and it's just lovely it's a lovely sensation to have so yeah i've had my head shaved for i don't know it's going on two plus years now oh yeah and i i still have what i call phantom hair and that is yes phantom hair so if i'm outside and it's raining and i get wet on top of the head i want to you know brush the hair off my head you know so it doesn't get in my my eyes or something then i was like oh yeah i don't have any uh yeah yeah yeah if you're wearing a hat and you you take your hat off you know you're thinking oh no a hat head and you kind of run your hand up there oh yeah there's nothing there there's nothing there i have no problems and you know it's great because there's you lose you sorry you use hardly any hair product at all so it's just like yep get in the shower like maybe a little drop of shampoo and then you're done and yeah you know my shave time has increased uh triple because now instead of just doing the face got to do the head do that every other day and it yeah we're calling it 20 minutes so that's yeah because you would have to like do it every day i'll be lazy i don't i haven't shaved for a couple of days because you know i'm not at work right and really even if i am at work i still don't really shave every day So, yeah, I'm a bit slack. So I'd have all this stubbly weird hair, and it looked like I'd had some sort of treatment, chemo treatment all the time. Wouldn't be a good look. So today's podcast almost got derailed by Windows 10. Yeah, thanks, Windows 10. Yeah, so I've had on my computer, I don't know, I don't know if it's quite been a year, maybe a little bit less, but I've had the notification in my bottom of my browser on your, on the bottom of my screen, they're saying upgrade to windows 10. I click on it and you know, when it first popped up and I was like, yeah, great. You'll be able to upgrade to windows 10 for free. We'll let you know when I'm like, okay, months past. And that, and that thing's still there. Right. I'm like, when is it going to say you're ready to upgrade? And then I finally realized I was like, Oh, you know what they're probably doing there. They're making sure that every system on my computer is compatible. They have all the drivers, you know, and once it hits that check bar, that says, yes, you're good to go, then it'll come up with the upgrade. So I'm like, okay, great. Fine, I'll wait. So today, I boot up the computer, get the little happy message, it goes, hey, Windows 10, ready to go. I'm like, oh. Okay. So I just click on download.
    5:42
    All morning long, it's gone. And unfortunately, I had my computer set to go to sleep after 15 minutes.
    5:50
    But I was on the computer, so that wasn't an issue. Yeah. It went to sleep one time while I was away. I came back. It had stopped the download, but then I clicked the resume. Boom. It kept on resuming. I was like, great. We're fine. Got all the night away to 91% download. And I stepped away again, come back, computer shut down, booted up. Boom. Nothing. Got to restart the entire thing. I'm like, oh. Okay. Fine. And the download's non-trivial. It's like about a three gigabyte download. Yeah. And on my internet speeds, much like Jared's internet speeds at home, they suck. What are you on at the moment? Being geeky, are you on ADSL 2 plus in America there? Or are you just like ADSL 1? Do you know? I do not understand the words you were speaking.
    6:37
    These words you speak, I do not know of them. No idea. So anyways, I go into my control panel. I'm going to fix this. I tell the computer, never go to sleep. Boom, start the download again. Okay, fine. for some reason it's taking much much much much longer and it's going it's going it's going i'm like oh god okay that's okay it's not gonna you know if it's still downloading when we do the podcast that's fine and everything um so uh my time we're starting the podcast here at 5 p.m and right at about 3 55 350 somewhere around there i get the notification saying hey i'm ready to be installed i'm like oh no you don't i know what's i know what's coming here no you're not going to trick me into pushing that download or the you know install button then you just know i know it's a four hour you know install or whatever so i um so i tell it no no no i'm good for right now why don't we update tonight at 1 a.m primo then i won't have any issues for you yeah that's right I got your number. So I pushed that. I'm like, ha, happy. I go back to my Firefox browser. I go to click on something. Nothing happens.
    7:58
    I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was just surfing here. Click, nothing happens. I can go back. I can go back through whatever I've already downloaded because it's, you know, cacheate history or whatever, but it's not looking. I'm like, oh, are you kidding me? Oh, you can't. So I shut down. Yeah, so I shut down Firefly. Voodoo backup. Yeah, same thing. It's not going forward with anything. I'm like, well, I can't even log in to Blab to do the podcast now. I'm like, and then a little window says, try restarting your computer. I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah, I'll restart the computer. I push restart.
    8:35
    Boom. Welcome to Windows 10 upgrade. This will take a while. You got to be joking. Great. I'm like, there's nothing I can do. It's mandatory. And I'm like, what happened to 1 a.m.? No, it went. So now I'm on the countdown clock. I'm looking. I'm watching the little slow. Now I'm not on internet time. Now it's just on hard drive time as it's copying files and then updating files and doing the install and then upgrading apps and driver settings and all that. I'm just like, I'm looking at my clock. and it's going like when it was at 15 it was three or 415 when it was at 50 it was 430 i'm like you are going to take me right to the wire yep right and here we are we're blabbing sure enough doing a thing yep sure enough 455 it finished it said hello and then it popped up and it was about to run me through tutorial i'm like no give me the internet gtfo i don't want no tutorial at this time thank you very much no i got no time for the tutorial i'll fudge through that later ruin it can cause me but anyway so um yeah but i do gotta say all things considered fairly easy install i mean it didn't have me do anything it did all the work so yeah i can play next week but i've had that nag screen on our windows 7 home premium um thing for a while now i've not updated not because i don't have the time to do it just because windows 10 has turned into like a a premium product now. It's ridiculous. And there's privacy stuff in there. You cannot turn off. Like there is stuff that they're collecting a lot of information with your free copy of windows 10. So yeah, I said, no, thank you. No, I don't have a, I don't have big brother paranoia. I don't either, but more to the point, I don't know.
    10:30
    I don't know exactly how to turn off anything. Any of you. I mean, I was probably running with it all running, you know, in windows eight and XP and you know, all that. So I'm like, you know what? Same old, same old. It's not, they're not getting anything new out of me. It's, you know, I'm not like, Ooh, I'm holding the keys to the kingdom. So yeah. I mean, really, I can't really talk. I'm, I'm in up to my like top of my bristly head with Google.
    10:55
    So they know everything about me. Really Microsoft knowing stuff about me. I really don't care that much. I didn't like the way they – it didn't sit with me right, the way that I actually – it was very deceptive in the way they rolled it out. So I sort of held off. Look, it's better – like your upgrade only being 3 gig, it's not as bad as the upgrade from Yosemite to El Capitan on iOS, man. It was 6 gig. 6 gig of upgrade. An upgrade. This is not a brand-new version of the operating system. 6 gig. so i went um no not at home i'll be doing that one and wonderful apple then goes oh we need that much free space first well at least that's what they do on the phone and you're just like i don't have the free space and i gotta go delete everything yeah yeah so like an upgrade i think they actually have like a to do the upgrade they have like a reserve part of the hard drive that they put all the images on and then you can delete them or they auto clean up after a while because their Apple. They sort of just take all the rough edges out of upgrading for you. So, you know. Yeah. So we'll see. We'll see what happens when I turn on Steam and you know, whether or not TPA plays Everybody says it not an issue So we we see about that Yeah I sure it be fine You just won the Color TV Speaking of things that I tried out though with TPA So, I have the new TV. It's got 3D capability. Oh, yeah. I have the PS3. TPA has, you know, 3D support. I tested out, before our discussion with Bobby last week, Yeah. I did test out. Which we can verify. Yes. I'm going to call her Barbie. We'll do Barbie Balama. That'll clear things up. No confusion here. Okay, so before I had the conversation with Barbie, I made sure I booted up Zen on PS3, checked out their 3D. Yeah, it worked. It looked wonderful. Yeah. It was nice and clean, and you could – the only issue I was having was lag. I'll get into that in a second of why.
    13:00
    So I went to go load up TPA, and it had been so long since I loaded that that, of course, I had to run a 500-meg download. so that's why i didn't i didn't check it out until just a few days ago so i load up the game i say yes to 3d it says you must restart the game i'm like oh that's kind of a pain in the butt because then boom it did it right there in game so i'm like so i gotta turn off the game turn back on the game okay so turn back on the game and when the 3d kicked in it was like crossing your eyes it was so major i mean like i you know took off the glasses and looked and whereas with all your other things there's just a slight shift to the image to create the 3d the with tpa it was almost double images and the best way i can describe it is remember those uh magic eye portraits there were those digitally you know where you looked at them and just looked like a bunch of you know digital mess and then when you kind of slightly you know crossed your eyes or whatever all the thing that's popped up right yeah or like it was that same sensation where you just had to relax your eye and kind of look like and then blend the two images together and then it yeah so it is a very severe uh 3d they're having and again zen has a slider for how much of the 3d effect you want not so with tpa and i'm now once like once my eyes like adjusted to it i was fine and I'll give them props. It looks fantastic and clear. Does it? Oh, no, it looks really good.
    14:38
    I mean, to the point that I was almost like, I can read the inserts almost better. I don't know what the deal is. I don't know that it has anything to necessarily do with that or with the fact that it's my 4K TV up-resing everything. It probably would be, yeah. It's when your computer or your console is going, oh right you have the 1080ps now i'm gonna give you that yeah yeah um so so on that aspect it looked really good and i gotta say in 3d with the again ps3 doesn't have dynamic lighting the um all the lights all the inserts um and just all the flashers they really popped i mean like it was much more it was much more noticeable um and they didn't look like you know flat alpha panes like you were always you know mentioning um there wasn't just this you know flat balloon that blocked. No, it actually had a three-dimensional quality to the lights, and so it really drew your attention. I was like, guy, you know, for not having dynamic lighting, this looks really pretty good.
    15:37
    So I was pleased with that. The thing that I wasn't pleased with, and Zen has this exact same problem. For some reason, they put the score, the DMD,
    15:47
    front of your 3D spectrum instead of all the way at the back. It needs to be at the back, people, because bringing your eye up and looking, it's a complete refocus in 3D. That hurts the eyes. It's not a quick glance. It should be a quick glance if they would just put the screen all the way in the back. If you're normally playing pinball where the score would be, then your eye could do a quick dart up and it would be just fine. You wouldn't have to lose focus or anything. I sent a PM to Flippy Floppy since he seems to be the PlayStation person. I was like, I know that this is probably beyond low on the priority scale considering where 3D is on everybody's radar these days, but it was like, if you can put a fix in, let's get that going. It'd be great. Like I said, really talk about eye strain, just bringing your eyes and with the severity that they have with the 3D. I mean, I would love it if they put a slider in. I'd love it if they would allow you to do all this in-game rather than having to exit the game, to go back to 2D and come back in. Reload. But the score thing, and again, I would say to zen 2 priority gotta send that to the back it's gotta go to the center for sure yeah that would be really really hard to like sort out yeah particularly if you're like you know you're playing at the back of the play field like maybe looking for rollovers or something like that and then you snap your vision to the front to see what multiplier you're on or something like that you know that would just yeah it'd kill your eyes really badly yeah um i in terms of the lag So I never experienced a PlayStation lag because I was on my projection screen CRT. So there was never any digital lag or whatever. So I knew going into this with the TV that I was potentially going to be facing this. So, of course, the first thing I boot up was pinball because what better way to test it out? Lag is, yeah, it'll do. I had lag on both Zen and Pinball Arcade, just to make that clear. um now i'm able to adjust my timing and and go oh i just need to you know mentally click earlier where it became an issue was when the ball just goes nuts crazy and comes to you know scream at your flipper and you need that twitch reaction yeah yeah there was no way you were gonna it was gone before you even hit the flipper so i was like shoot yeah so i i'd already gone through the tv and turned off all the motion processing and you know uh noise reduction all that stuff that should help. But I was like, it's still there. That's really bothering me. So I went on the websites, and unfortunately my TV's too new for it to have a dedicated form on the audio-video AVS form, I think is what it's called. Okay.
    18:31
    The only thing that I could come up with was some people were saying with LG TVs to rename your HDMI to PC.
    18:39
    You're kidding me. Come on. Don't tell me that simply renaming it because they were saying, No, by renaming it, then it knows, oh, I need to go into PC processing mode. Shaking head with disbelief for those who aren't watching Blab. Totally.
    18:54
    It's that placebo effect where people go, no, I swear that was different. So I was like, okay. I'll humor you. I'll humor you and do it. Yeah, no, I didn't notice the difference. So then I thought, okay, what if I go directly, because I was having my PlayStation 3 go through my receiver.
    19:13
    Yep. What if I go out of instead of out of the receiver, go PlayStation right into the TV? Let's see what happens there. So I did it and I was using my my go to table, which is replace because I know I just know the feel of it. I know what I'm able to do explicitly with no question. That's the table that I can nail most of the shots, you know, 90 percent accuracy kind of thing. So, yeah, I really knew the timing. And like I said, I wasn't getting the timing on the other when it was going through the receiver. So going directly to the TV, I checked it out. Sure enough, my timing was pretty very close.
    19:51
    Good enough that I was like, OK, I think there's I think I figured it out. We'll see. So then I switched back to the, you know, plugging in through the receiver. Sure enough, it was back to my timing not being there.
    20:03
    So I was like, OK, that's the issue. So I went directly into the TV with it instead of going through the receiver, which bums me out because once again, my whole point was, I was hoping to have everything go into the receiver and just that one cable going on and not having to flip inputs on the TV. But no, I had to do that. Now the good news is my TV is smart enough that when I turn on the PS3, it goes, it'll auto detect it. It'll auto detect it. And all I have to do is push a button and it'll automatically switch inputs and go to the PS3. So that's nice that it's not me having to go into the menu and then finding, Oh, where's my input click on that. I mean, it's, it's not a big deal. I mean, literally, we're talking about a two-step process as opposed to a one-step process. So if you've got a Chromecast dongle and you start to stream something, even if you're on like a free-to-air TV station, it'll like switch it over automatically to the Chromecast and start playing. It's part of the HDMI standard.
    20:56
    And yeah, devices can like switch in basically. It's like a really basic switching framework in it. So it's cool. Hey, why don't we talk a little bit about our interview that we had last week? Yeah, yeah. I'm just curious to know what your takeaway from that is, because I have a couple of points that I took away that, you know, highlights, you might call them. Just seeing if there's anything that stood out to you. Yeah, I was really surprised at the team size and how many people I have working on this, like Pinball in particular. I kind of had a feeling that Pinball was their primary, like, revenue driver. But just the amount of staff on Pinball, that explains a lot, really. Right. Yeah, what they're able to achieve and how long. The other thing that I found really interesting was how long it actually took to, like, from, yes, we want to do this table to here's a table released to the market. Yes. And that in itself is interesting. That was one of my checkpoints. Yeah. Let's talk about that. because I think the thing that's interesting is they must have on the cards, on their dance card at any one time, they must have like 10 or 11 things on the boil to make sure they hit those sort of average one table a month as Barbie was suggesting. Which I mean, she's saying, I don't know if internally they're producing one table a month and then releasing those table packs.
    22:25
    My general feeling with Zen has always been that it's, you know, four releases a year. One every quarter. A table pack every quarter. And there's two or three tables depending on the thing. On the franchise. Right. But obviously, if that's their schedule, though, in terms of they know so far in advance and they're working on them that long. It sounded like from concept or initial idea to actually starting working on the table, it seemed like that was about a six-month period. Is that what you took away from that? I think it was about six or eight months, I think. And then construction, so building all the art assets and getting the table up and running, that seemed like it was probably, I don't know, three months, I think is what my takeaway from that was. Was that with you or did you? I think the planning is like one to two months And then it goes six months of development slash art assets that like just, you know, building the table, I think. So there's like a, there's two or so months of planning. Then there's like, I think a gap. I forget there's a middle bit and I forget the middle bit.
    23:47
    Well, yeah, I know there's, you know, the beginning bit where they plan and the end bit where they release. yeah anyway but it certainly isn't the the one month uh build punch them out like um tpa can do yeah that far side does um which i found again it answered for me a lot of the polish questions which is that you know whenever a zen table comes out it's it looks and plays exactly the way they want it to play there's not any bugs going on that i know of i mean i've never noticed anything that you're like, oh, look at that. There's no balls going through the flippers. There's no collision problems. Tables flying off. Balls are getting lost Any of that it just functioning Yep That right And I think yeah the the the whole one month turnaround timeframe is you know every business has a different business model and that's the one that, that Farsight needs to adopt to, to remain profitable. And that's fine. But can you imagine if Farsight had the same size team as Zen, another 20 people on, on board? Yeah, that would be pretty amazing to see what that would actually do to what they could actually produce. That's what it made me think. It was like, so what would happen if they were on a level playing field? You know what I mean? Yeah.
    25:15
    I'm pretty sure that the UI would probably have come out when they announced it originally. Yeah. Probably about three months after they announced it originally. they would have had all of the stuff that, you know, Mike and the guys from the UI department were talking about with us in the interview we've had a couple of episodes ago, you know, that sort of stuff. They're sort of like wish lists, wouldn't be wish lists, they'd actually be in the game and they'd be out. And they would probably have the option to look at almost running parallel builds. So they could actually do like a new gen build and a old gen build for mobile and likewise for the consoles and actually start to separate that out because they'd have the team to actually maintain both assets on both platforms. It would be wonderful. I would like nothing more for Farsight to have the ability to have the team size that Zen Studios do because I think they could really use it there. In reality, the way they work is incredibly agile for monthly releases. And for what they can do in a month, it's pretty amazing really that they're able to get it out so yeah so I did have two points beyond the one that you just mentioned that one of them is the small thing and that is what I'm saying as Barbie called it putting the FX in pinball I like that it explains the whole thing right it really explained it to me where it was like okay this is who they are this is what they're embracing To me, it was kind of that turning point that I had with Farsight also. When I talked to Norman, and I kind of asked him about the general aesthetic of Pinball Arcade. And he goes, and this was two years into the game, I believe. And he kind of said, look, this is what it is.
    27:12
    We're two years in. This is how our game plays. This is how our game looks. Get used to it, essentially, was the thing. And I kind of went, yeah, I am used to it. Why am I trying to make it into something that does not, you know, I need to get over. Yeah. You know, I can't sit there and hope that it's going to look like, you know, pro pinball with, you know, or, you know, with that ultra photorealistic look, it's not going to be, it's never going to be, that's not what the art style is that they're going for. They've chosen a style they're sticking with it. And I think we were all blown away when we first saw it. And then we started doing the comparisons of other platforms and stuff and go well why can't it be this and it's like because it's not that it this is its thing and that's what i'm learning with with zen this is its thing it's going to have you know splashy effects it's going to have moving animated things it's not going to try and be an absolute table and i'm commending them for it and it's like okay that okay that's how it is yeah i don't know why it's taking me so long to figure that out but yeah it was the same for me too like it was a real sort of a like um a turning point moment for me listening to that interview and actually talking to to barbie to say yeah you know what it's unfair to compare them to anything else because they're not like really anything else they are something that's really quite unique and it is that the whole fact that they it's story first when they're doing the the table and then you know they want to create that narrative when you're actually playing pinball and you know in real life um tables they're only just starting to do that now because they have the software programming ability to do that like you see they know that it's going to homes for free play rather than earning profit for the operator you know because the idea was it was they were there for a good time not a long time when they're in the arcades so you know they you weren't supposed to uncover the whole story it's just like yeah i'm just going to play this for five minutes while i have a beer and then go away and you know whatever so yeah it's uh it's a very different sort of model that they're actually canning for now so yeah yeah i think because i dig it i think that was a a great thing to have reinforced for consumers of the product um and i'm really glad that um that barbie covered that The other thing that I was going to mention, and this kind of does needle a little bit at Farsight, but it was the whole pricing policy of Xen. And I thought it was interesting how it was, hey, we're going to hide our high costs of licensing and put them inside the low-cost tables. The ones that, well, we call this in TV, and Star Trek is what made it famous, is we call it a box episode.
    30:03
    A box episode. So what Star Trek would do is if they did a particular episode where there was lots of action and they were going on location and there was aliens all over the place, well, that episode cost a lot of money. so then all of a sudden you'd have an episode or two almost immediately afterwards where they were trapped inside an elevator or trapped inside a spaceship inside the cockpit and they couldn't get out and so instead they'd have these long discussions monologues, monologue episodes well it's not necessarily monologues but it was just people having philosophical discussions or whatever well that was a box episode because it was really cheap to make and it would so if you had two million dollars to make two episodes and one and a half million went in to make this really awesome episode well now you only got 500 000 to make this tiny episode but the end result is the budget was still the same and that seems to be what zen is doing it's hey we've got this budget for the year how we throw the money around is our business you the consumer are never going to notice it's always going to cost you the same and it costs you about the same you might get one table less than a pack, but that's the only thing you're going to see as far as the difference. And the only table that that was a problem with was Star Wars. And that wasn't really even a problem. It made sense. Right. And so, you know, but I thought that was a really interesting approach. And you know me, I hate Kickstarters.
    31:37
    I agree. Kickstarters are getting old. I think any way that Kickstarters can be avoided is a good move. Now, I understand that Farsight is dealing with a whole different issue with Xen. They only have the license to pay for. Farsight has both the license and the license to Williams, Bally, Stern. So really, it's a double dip. Yeah. They're getting double-paying me. But it was one of those things where I was like, ah, now I understand how Xen can get away with it. Because we're all of them speculating. We're like, what? Microsoft have deep pockets, but then it's like, well, Microsoft isn't publishing it on all platforms. They don't publish it on the PS3 and the PS4. And why would the publisher do that? Anyhow, they're just a publisher. They're not bankrolling the operation. Like it didn't make any sense. No. So yeah, that explains it. They just planned it out, basically. They said, here's a budget. This is our $10 that we have to spend. We're going to spend, you know, three on this really big license table. And then the rest of the dollars, we're just going to spread over the rest of the tables. The other thing, and this to me is where, again, the team size matters, is the fact that with Zen not passing the cost along to when there is a platform change.
    32:51
    Everybody, or you'll remember when the PS4 was coming out, everybody on the forum, there was a whole debate about should Farsight charge, you know, double dip or should they not? And, you know, half the people were like, absolutely, they should not double dip. It's not fair. I already paid for this table. you know and especially once steam became a thing where it was like hey wait a second the x11 didn't cost anymore and yet it's looking just like the ps4 so what the heck but then you go with uh um shoot i'm losing my train of thought oh wait then but then the the the flip side is everybody was saying hey no they're building a completely new game and this takes development time and why should they be doing this for free and that's where i think the team size matters because yeah you could parcel off part of the team to go make that upgrade. You're not degrading the quality. You're literally taking key members of the team away to refactor the code base so they can release on the new platform as well as trying to do all the other stuff. Like in a bigger organization, you're right. You could go, well, this team is the PS4 upgrade team and the rest of them are developing.
    34:01
    Which is where it would come into, and this is now the UI team and this is now the DX11 team. And, you know, anytime that there has been, I'm sure right now it would be, and this is now the Stern app team. You know what I mean? Absolutely. It would have to be. They would have to have a team of people working on that particular thing. And, you know, they've only got so many resources to play with. My takeaway is whenever they come out with Pinball FX 3, it's going to be the same thing. Everything's just going to migrate over. Yeah, I think it will. And the challenging thing is that for mobile platforms and stuff, it's hard, particularly on Android, because the way that Google Play works is it's tied to a particular package name. Your DLCs are tied to a package. So com.zenstudios.zenpinball would be where all the DLCs are routed through. So for them to be able to cross-grade you or upgrade you to the new platform,
    35:04
    they'd need to do some pretty funky licensing stuff to churn the licenses. I imagine it would be kind of like generating a ticket for you. Yeah. It's going to take a look at what you have currently owned, generate a ticket, so that then when you download the new version, you've got the magic ticket. Yes, these are part of your download. and then it creates a brand new DLC file for Google Play to register with, to look at. Yeah, I think it might work like that. They might be able to do like a... I'm sure there is an upgrade strategy that you can use for Google Play because apps upgrade all the time. Like there will be like a new version of the app will come out and it might be like a 2.0 versus 1.0. So sometimes developers, it's really developer's choice. They can go, well, we're going to upgrade you or it's we're going to sandbox it, basically. Now, if they're going to sandbox it, then there would need to be a pretty significant graphical boost and a pretty significant feature boost for that sandboxing to be justified. Right. If they were, like in the case of TPA, I feel that if it was going to be like a TPA 2.0 where they do all the things they may want to do, head-to-head and all these other things that would take development cycles to do and do a massive res bump of all the tables with all the new camera equipment, for example, like recapture everything, that takes time. And you could argue that that would be a justification for a new app. Now, if that was to happen, it would need to be a pretty solid package for me to go yeah I happy to spend what would now be about Australian to upgrade all those tables But see again this is what Barbie was talking about how she said the point is, is we hook you. We know you'll buy. You're going to be a loyal customer. You've already been a loyal customer. We know that you're going to continue to give us money in the future. So why would we want to tick you off? Yeah, that's really, that just doesn't make sense, really does it it's like you know i mean the way they could get around it is fast like go well new app anyone with um i think they did this or somebody did this where they had look you know if you uh upgrading to the new version of the app then if you want to get credited for your purchases you just go back through your google play history send us the receipts of all your purchases which are all tracked in in your purchase history on source the same on ios as well and yet we'll definitely unlock them based on your Farsight user account. We'll just unlock them in the app, which is exactly how they manage Kickstarter entitlement. So I'm sure they could interrogate. They'd have usage information about what each user has and what they have entitlements to based on their Google Play record. They could interrogate the information and then just enable it,
    38:01
    flick a switch basically to open up all the tables on a new app. So implementation perspective, it would be, I would think, relatively trivial to do.
    38:10
    Yeah, but you're right. You've got to look up your customers, right? Yeah. Why tell them to repurchase all the tables again? Because they're just not going to. And that's not good for you because then you still have to keep on maintaining the old apps and it costs you more money. Yep.
    38:27
    Hey, let's roll into because coming up at the end of this week, it's time for Tournament of the Month.
    38:37
    Just the flavor of the week. Yay! All right. So, turn of the month. Sign-up starts this Wednesday. And, yeah, the day before Thanksgiving here in the States. Everywhere else goes Thanksgiving. What the hell?
    39:01
    That's when you eat turkey. and registration stops on Black Friday. Yeah, Black Friday. Do they do? Doesn't matter to you guys. I don't know how... Yeah, okay. I figured it's become kind of global.
    39:21
    Registration ends on Black Friday. So sign-ups start on Wednesday. They finish on Friday evening. And then we all play the tournament on Saturday, unless you're Jared and then you played on Sunday. um because i'm from the future and the future is right and just as a reminder the tables that we are playing are gorgar victory high roller casino and medieval madness yeah i i didn't uh really play much actually i only played one game of medieval madness uh this week and that's because uh barbie was so kind to uh give me a couple of codes for some zen tables so i was playing those instead.
    39:58
    Yeah. But I did try out a method and I'm going to share it with everybody for the fun of it. I did try out a method in medieval madness that it's really boosted my scores big time. And that is just shooting the castle lock over and over and over and over again. I had no castle lock.
    40:17
    Oh yeah. Because so when you shoot the castle lock three times, obviously you get multi-ball. Then if you shoot the ramps, I think it's six or seven times that unlocks the extra ball. Then you can get an extra ball out of it. Now, then I think thereafter, anytime you get the castle lock, you have to, I think, do it twice or something like that. I don't know. Getting the extra ball becomes significantly more difficult. But point being, and this is where it's key, is all about your multiplier. and so when you're in multi ball in castle lock just sending it up the loops letting it bounce around in the in the jets and cranking up that multiplier because i'm getting now huge multipliers astronomical demand you get i'm looking at the end of the chat and pimple is saying um to clarify five times for the ramps then super at the castle lock right is um is what you need to do so anyway my average score on medieval tended to be in the 60 70 million range because i was busy bashing the you know passing the castle gate and uh trying to complete you know basically i was trying to do battle for the kingdom yes as soon as i started doing castle lock mode boom my score was 150 million minimum wow yeah and then my high score went from being 300 plus million to 790 million, I think. I mean, it was one of the strategies where it just kind of went, oh, okay, this is how you score points.
    41:52
    That's the thing. When you're playing tournament pinball, pinball for score, you've got to change your stance. Like it's often rare that you want to go for modes and stuff or the sort of general sort of path. Yeah. It's all about, yeah, just what will give you the biggest amount of score and just keep on milking that. and you can bet that people like Pinball Whiz and all the other top leaderboard people in tournament of the month know those exploits and they go, yep, well, that's the strategy I'm going to be taking. They probably watch a lot more Pappa TV than I do. Yeah. I wish somebody had come up with a good method for victory.
    42:30
    Don't play it. No, for the exploiting purposes. Oh, yeah, there is no exploiting. Yeah, there didn't seem to be any... Apparently, Pinball Wiz has a decent strategy. I wonder if we should get Pinball Wiz in to explain that. Welcome, caller.
    42:51
    You're on the air. All right, so victory. What I would do first, go for finish right away. Finish the finish target seven times to get a multiplier up to 8x and just milk the spinner. Wow. All right. Yeah, that's easier said than done. I'll say that. Wait, Milk the Witch? I missed that part. The spinner. Spinner. The left spinner. Oh, okay.
    43:20
    Because that's just looping, like, when a spinner is lit for 20,000 times 8, that's 160,000 points per spin.
    43:30
    That's one way of doing it. Thanks for that. Let me ask you this. The thing is, the playfield multiplier is only active when a checkpoint is running. So if your checkpoint is run down low, you might as well get the checkpoint. Otherwise, you're going back down to 1x multiplier. Oh, right. So it actually resets. So that's basically how I got the 100 plus million score.
    43:56
    All right. There you go. Nice one. Thanks, mate. There we go. That answers that. Although, like I say, actually finishing finish. That's easy. All righty. just so people know our table of the week which will be for the next time is Xenon so that's not for this tournament but the pleasure of playing pinball with a pinball table the pleasure is itself what else before our time runs out it was me losing a DVD which I never ever ever ever ever do and then of course finding it in the last place you looked after spending an hour and a half going through every single DVD case you own that sucks no one needs to know that I think you just TLD it right there we know what it was all about now and then I can tell a short story it's rare but now and then I can well that just sent my wife into bits of laughter because she knows she'll ask me frequently when I start to tell a story she goes tell me the short version and then I'll start talking she goes this isn't the short version I'm like come on She's losing it. There's a chicken in the background there. Or she'll ask me a question and she'll go, just yes or no. I don't need the details. And it'll usually be a question like... It'll be one of these questions where it'll be like,
    45:20
    tell me, does this TV... And I'll be like, ooh, I get to talk about... Does it do this? Yes or no? And I'll be like, well, yes. But she goes, that's all I need to know. No, no, no, but there's more. No, no, I just needed to know. Yes or no? I'm like, let me talk.
    45:36
    Yep. I get that a little bit too. I'm all about the minutiae and Kim doesn't care. Like particularly with Android, it's like, I want to do this thing. I don't need to know how it's implemented. I just want to know how to do the thing.
    45:51
    But see, I like to think that I have a way of telling the story that is least entertaining. You know, we've all talked to that person where you're just like, oh my God, stop now. I'm going numb and you've only finished two sentences. Yep. Yes, we have. Unfortunately, my wife has heard all my stories, and she's heard all the tangents, and she can connect the two before I can connect them, and she'll cut me off at the pass and just go straight to the punchline, essentially, and then I'll just sit there.
    46:23
    She'll do a combo breaker. Yeah, basically. She'll do a combo breaker. Yep. All right. No fatality for you. Yeah, exactly. People with knows what I'm talking about.
    46:45
    Alright, but we should I've got to put a pizza on it. I've got a lasagna in the oven, so there we go. Pizza and lasagna.
    46:55
    I had that for lunch, actually. I like the Italian food. Food talking, we've got to turn off. Oh, no. No, no.
    47:06
    It'll have to be for the small wheel next week. I think we're up to small wheel next week, aren't we? Who knows? The interviews have thrown me completely off, so we need to get some more interviews, because I don't want to get back on schedule. I want to talk to the Fossil Boys again. We'll have to get them back on again.
    47:22
    Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, hey, thank you, Jared Morgan, for popping in as usual. Thank you for PinballWiz45B of giving us those needed factual fact checks that he likes to drop on us now and then and this time bring him in. Thank you for that. I have been Shut Your Trap, a.k.a. Chris Frebus. Join us again next week when we talk about I have no clue, but something that'll be pinball related, I'm sure. Stuff and things. Yeah. Stuff and things. Yes. Bye-bye. All right. Ciao, ciao. We will see you all later.
    48:03
    I said pause. It won't pause, Jared. Prices start at $39, but mention Blockade Podcast to receive 10% off your order. WizardAmusement.com. Sales, restoration, customization.
    48:47
    Remember to leave a review on iTunes or any podcasting channel Blockade is distributed through. We can't approve, but you can tell us how. Until next time, remember, we're in overtime!
    49:03
    you