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Ep 72 - Quality Over Quantity?

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·1h 4m·analyzed·Oct 3, 2019
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Quality vs quantity debate in pinball manufacturing dominates discussion alongside industry updates.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill Wood discuss the quality versus quantity debate in pinball manufacturing, exploring whether companies like Stern, Jersey Jack, and American Pinball should release fewer games per year with more development time and richer feature sets, or continue releasing multiple titles annually. They also cover industry news including Stern's Elvira House of Horrors LE shipments, Spooky Pinball's Total Nuclear Annihilation (TNA) design insights from Scott Denisi, and American Pinball's Oktoberfest tournament activities.

Key Claims

  • Stern's Elvira House of Horrors LEs are currently shipping

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell (Stern correspondent) confirmed LEs are on the line and shipping

  • TNA's LCD display represents Scarlet's wrist-mounted device showing reactor information

    high confidence · Scott Denisi explained the display design intent to Dr. John during Spooky Pinball correspondent segment

  • TNA's original storyline was darker and involved destroying civilization for no reason before being rewritten

    high confidence · Scott Denisi told Dr. John he rewrote TNA's story to be more fun and interesting than the original tongue-in-cheek homebrew version

  • Pinball development cycles currently run 10-12 months, sometimes 14, compared to 1.5-2 years in the Williams era

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell stated this during quality vs quantity discussion

  • Modern pinball games are less over-engineered than historical games with fewer groundbreaking mechs and packed playfields

    medium confidence · Bill Wood observed this trend during the quality discussion

  • Bill Wood is leaving Special When Lit Podcast in approximately 6 days due to an impending baby

    high confidence · Bill announced 'Six days or sooner' until Baby Bill arrives and he exits the podcast

  • Attack from Mars originally was supposed to have a hovering ship toy that was cut due to $40 cost addition

    medium confidence · Ken Cromwell referenced this as an example of sacrificing mechanical features for cost

  • Spooky Pinball's business model is sustainable with one game per year, lower overhead

    medium confidence · Bill Wood suggested Spooky would survive another 'great pinball depression' due to sustainable overhead

  • Flip N Out Pinball has sold out of Elvira House of Horrors LEs

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell stated 'I know he's sold out of LEs' regarding Zach Minney's inventory

Notable Quotes

  • “The LCD display on the machine itself is the computer screen that's on Scarlet's wrist. So that's what she is seeing.”

    Scott Denisi @ Industry Buzz - Spooky segment — Reveals the thematic and narrative intent behind TNA's display design, addressing community complaints about graininess

  • “Scarlet doesn't make it out alive ever, no matter what... It's a no-win situation for Scarlet.”

    Scott Denisi (relayed by Dr. John) @ Industry Buzz - Spooky segment — Explains the darker narrative of TNA where the main character sacrifices herself regardless of player success

  • “Would you rather see five games a year or would you rather see two games with more stuff implemented and a higher cost?”

    Bill Wood @ Main discussion segment — Frames the core quality vs quantity debate that drives the episode's central conversation

  • “If the great pinball depression ever comes again, dude, Spooky would be one... to stay alive. Their overhead isn't nearly as much.”

    Bill Wood @ Main discussion segment — Identifies Spooky's sustainable one-game-per-year model as economically resilient

  • “I would have happily paid an extra $100, $200, you know, to have that mech in there.”

    Ken Cromwell @ Main discussion segment — Expresses consumer willingness to pay premium for feature-rich games, challenging cost-cutting decisions

  • “I do see a trend in a positive direction where it looks like we're getting a little bit more on these games.”

    Ken Cromwell @ Main discussion segment — Acknowledges recent improvement in playfield density and features despite quantity concerns

  • “That middle tier lets me feel like I got everything that was intended in the game and nothing's tripped out.”

    Bill Wood @ Main discussion segment — Explains consumer preference for Premium/LE mid-tier models over Pro as a quality assurance statement

  • “Do you think that we're sacrificing quality now on some of these games? Yeah, I do.”

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBill WoodpersonScott DenisipersonDr. JohnpersonRyan WhitepersonJack DangerpersonJason FowlerpersonZach MinneypersonBrian Cosnerperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_strategy: Debate over sustainable release rates: Stern releases 5-7 games/year vs hypothetical 2-3 games/year with extended development. Current model enables frequent new releases but may compromise individual game depth.

    high · Ken and Bill discuss trade-offs between Stern's current multi-game annual output and potential for fewer, more feature-rich releases

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Perception that modern pinball playfields are less densely packed than classic Williams/Bally era games, with fewer complex mechs. Recent titles like Elvira showing more content than prior releases.

    medium · Bill observes Elvira looks 'very open' compared to expectation; Ken notes positive trend toward more playfield content in recent releases

  • ?

    product_concern: Documented cases where mechanical features or components (e.g., Attack from Mars hovering ship, $40 cost addition) were removed to meet price points, creating consumer frustration.

    high · Ken references Attack from Mars ship removal and expresses willingness to pay $100-200 premium for feature-rich games

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Bill Wood explicitly states pinball companies are sacrificing quality, attributing it to manufacturing/business focus on units and profit margins rather than design intent.

    high · Direct question: 'Do you think we're sacrificing quality?' Bill responds: 'Yeah, I do.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: TNA's LCD display designed as diegetic element (Scarlet's wrist-mounted device) rather than generic UI, integrating theme narrative into display function.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.192

0:00
Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Hello, Pinball Land. It's episode 72 and a half of the special When Lit Pinball Podcast. My name is Ken Cromwell. I am Bill Wood. 72 was recorded in the can. It was actually an interview with Ryan White. and Ryan White is the Vice President of Sales for Chicago Gaming Company. And we had a nice hour-long discussion that we were excited to air. And then as I went to edit and post-process the actual archived footage, guess what? A little catastrophe.
0:46
That's only happened to us twice, though, out of 70-some episodes. It happened before? I don't remember it happening. Well, our technical difficulty.
0:54
TPF, where the microphone, somebody turned the microphone off. Oh, that's right. So TPF, we had this portable setup with three or four mics. Yeah. And one night we recorded, which I thought was like a pretty funny, awesome pinball podcast. And it was you were there. I was there. Jack Danger was there. Jason Fowler was there. Who else am I missing? Zach Mennie was there. Chris Franchi. Chris Franchi was there. And then when I came in to edit that up the next morning, one of the mics got turned off, and it was like the main mic. So somebody hit the switch. That was the mic where everybody was jumping on, talking to. That was the mic that was getting passed along, and it was turned off. So that was a little disappointing. So in any event, we're going to roll with episode 72 and a half today. And if you missed that interview with Ryan White, he said that he would come back and do it again. But you can also catch a lot of what we talked about on the stream, and we can talk a little bit about that later. But before we get into that, what's going on with you, man? Anything happening? Nothing, man. Dude, actually, we're seven days away from Baby Bill. Seven or six? It'll be six by the time this airs. So if you're listening to this on Thursday. Yeah, six days. Six days or sooner. So honestly, just, you know, pinball's a little fading out as other deadlines are approaching. So Bill will be leaving Special Winlets on a very special episode in six days. Yeah, yeah. So we're going to probably do an exit out. It was good having you on the podcast, man. Yeah, thank you. I think we'll get to 75. It was a good run. 75th anniversary episode. I'm done. I'm out. The Emerald Bill's out at edition. It was good. So we'll be taking applicants for co-hosts. You can email those, especially when lit, pinballpodcasts at gmail.com. Let's go ahead. Let's get into the pinball news and check in with our correspondents. Getting the news from around the industry in this week's Industry Buzz.

  • American Pinball's Houdini should have been a wide-body machine to better accommodate its shot layout

    medium confidence · Bill Wood opined that Houdini's tight shots would have benefited from wide-body format

    • Bill Wood @ Main discussion segment — Direct confirmation of perceived quality decline due to manufacturing/business pressure rather than conscious design choice

  • “The business has to be focused on units and profit margins, I would assume.”

    Bill Wood @ Main discussion segment — Identifies root cause of quantity-over-quality trend in pinball manufacturing business dynamics

  • “Seven manufacturers, seven minutes every single week. That's it.”

    Ken Cromwell @ Correspondent recruitment segment — Outlines the vision for industry correspondent coverage and solicits new contributors

    • Kazperson
    Gary Sternperson
    Steve Ritchieperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Chicago Gaming Companycompany
    Total Nuclear Annihilationgame
    Elvira House of Horrorsgame
    Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
    Flip N Out Pinballcompany
    Global Gaming Expoevent
    Pinball Expoevent
    Deadfliporganization
    Logan's Arcadevenue

    high · Scott Denisi explains display represents Scarlet seeing reactor information; addresses 'grainy' complaints as intentional aesthetic

  • ?

    machine_intel: TNA's original storyline was darker and tongue-in-cheek (destroying civilization without reason) before being rewritten for narrative depth. Game originally a homebrew experiment.

    high · Scott Denisi told Dr. John he rewrote story to make it 'more fun and interesting' than original homebrew version

  • ?

    product_strategy: Consumers perceive Premium/LE mid-tier models as containing 'everything intended' while Pro models feel stripped. Shaker motors expected in Premium tier, not differentiation.

    medium · Bill explains preference for Premium/LE to 'feel like I got everything that was intended'; notes shaker motors should be baseline, not premium feature

  • ?

    business_signal: Spooky Pinball's one-game-per-year model positioned as more economically resilient than multi-title competitors if market downturn occurs, due to lower overhead.

    medium · Bill: 'If the great pinball depression ever comes again... Spooky would be one [contender to stay alive]. Their overhead isn't nearly as much.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Special When Lit struggling to maintain 7-correspondent model (one per manufacturer). Seeking new contributors with low time commitment (60 seconds/week).

    high · Ken explicitly calls for correspondents, outlines vision of '7 manufacturers, 7 minutes every single week', notes correspondents 'dropping like flies'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Bill Wood departing Special When Lit Podcast in ~6 days due to impending fatherhood. Podcast seeking new co-host applicants. Aiming to reach 75th episode as capstone.

    high · Bill announces 'Six days or sooner' until Baby Bill arrival and he 'exits the podcast'; Ken notes they'll 'probably do an exit out' and reach 75th episode

  • ?

    product_launch: Stern Elvira House of Horrors LE units now shipping, unboxing videos expected within 1-2 weeks.

    high · Ken Cromwell (Stern correspondent): 'The LEs are not only on the line, but they're currently shipping'

  • ?

    event_signal: American Pinball Oktoberfest tournament hosted at G2E Las Vegas Oct 15-17, coinciding with Pinball Expo. Deadflip streamed earlier tournament on Twitch.

    high · Kaz (American Pinball correspondent) cites G2E Oktoberfest dates; Brian Cosner (delayed correspondent) referenced Deadflip stream from Logan's Arcade

    • 2:42
    Hello from Dr. John with this week's spooky pinball update. I managed to have a nice chat with Scott Denisey, who we all know was the creator of TNA, or Total Nuclear Annihilation, and whose title is rumoured to be the next one coming up for Spooky Pinball. We had a little chat about TNA and I found out some interesting facts that I hope you'd find interesting as well. For example, with the display, which have been variously described as grainy, he told me this. Yeah, what a lot of people don't actually know is the display, the LCD display on the machine itself is the computer screen that's on Scarlet's wrist. So that's what she is seeing. So she sees what reactor she needs to target. She sees what the reactor's, you know, stuff like stats are. She knows like all this other information. She can see certain things, right? and she's using that to communicate back and that all this stuff is being sent from the 1980s to the future where she is through that device. And we talked a bit further about the storyline to TNA and how he came up with it and I was interested to hear that in the original Whitewood it was actually a lot darker than it is at the moment. The storyline is a little bit sad in TNA because Scarlet doesn't make it out alive ever,
    4:05
    no matter what, and Scarlet's that main character, right? It's really sad. How can you do that? I know.
    4:13
    Well, it's better than the game was actually originally going to be. The game was going to be real bad, like tongue-in-cheek, like we're destroying a civilization thing for no reason.
    4:25
    It was going to be awful because I was just screwing around with a homebrew, right? So I rewrote the story to make it more fun and interesting. So for TNA fans, I hope you enjoyed that little insight into the history of TNA and what's going on in the game. There will be more from Scott next week, and we'll catch you then. Hey, this is Kaz, your special and lit American Pinball correspondent. Got a quick update on American Pinball and Oktoberfest. Deadflip streamed an Oktoberfest tournament from Logan's Arcade on Sunday night. Looks like the tournament lasted for hours, so you can go check that out on Twitch. And also, American Pinball will have an Oktoberfest at the G2E, the Global Gaming Expo in Las Vegas, October 15th through the 17th. So I hope everyone has a great week, has fun playing pinball. And let's go over to Stern Pinball with our correspondent, Ken Cromwell. Ken. Hey, thank you, Ken. At Stern Pinball this week, we've got confirmation that those that had purchased Elvira, House of Horrors, and you're waiting on that LE, well, guess what? The LEs are not only on the line, but they're currently shipping. So I would assume that we're going to see those unboxing videos. We're going to see those streams. We're going to see those coming out of the box here any day now at Stern Pinball. Back to you in the booth, Ken. Thanks, Ken. So, Bill, we got a little short on the correspondence. They've been dropping like flies lately. And, you know, truth be told, there's not a whole lot of news going on with all the manufacturers. So I appreciate Dr. John kind of getting in with Scott Denisey talking a little bit of TNA. Now, did you realize, TNA, like the screen, the LCD was supposed to kind of replicate what Scarlett, who it's the name of the main character of the pin. Yep. That's what she's supposed to be seeing on her LCD watch. I did not know that. No. I did not know that either. No. Very cool, though. I didn't know people were complaining about graininess. So if there's graininess there. Now, I thought you would have picked up on graininess on an LCD TV if anybody did. Well, I did. But, I mean, I figured, you know, it's just part of the course, right? It's aesthetics. It's awesome. Hey, we got a little message coming in here. But yeah, so that was kind of interesting. I did not know that. So Dr. John, way to go talking to Mr. Scott Tenisi. And then, you know, the storyline. A lot of people don't realize that if Scarlet does her job, she actually sacrifices her life for the better good in the game. And if she doesn't do her job, she has sacrificed her life in trying. So it's a no-win situation for Scarlet.
    6:52
    Spoiler alert. If you don't know what happens if you beat Reactor 9 in TNA, you're going to want to mute your radio or mute your phone here for five seconds. The whole game shuts down. It goes blank. It goes dead, and that's the end of it, and there's no more scoring.
    7:09
    Welcome back. Okay. So the interesting take on that is Scarlet is no longer with us at that point. Yeah, but, dude, I kind of would have liked to have seen the Civilization one, man. That would have been kind of cool. Right. Or see him like re-implement that. and his original plan on the game, that might be kind of cool too. He's got another game coming up. Assuming it's not some type of a haunted house party, maybe it is some type of doom and gloom for a civilization pin. That would be pretty cool. Would be interesting, right? You never know. Absolutely. And then I've got to give Brian Cosner some credit. He's in American Pinball poking around, seeing what's going on. He's trying to get us some nuggets. In fairness to Brian, so Brian had submitted this segment a couple weeks ago when he's citing the Deadflip Oktoberfest tournament because he did host one, and I think he streamed it on Twitch. It wasn't this past Sunday. It was a few Sundays ago. So we've had a lot of things going on where we didn't use any segments from the correspondence lately, so that part's a little bit outdated. But if you want to jump on in Oktoberfest, he cites the show that you can see in Las Vegas, which happens around the middle of October. Actually, it backs up to Pinball Expo. Yeah, so Pinball Expo is kind of coinciding. So if you're on that West Coast and you need to go to Vegas to play in Oktoberfest, highly recommend going in and checking that out. Well, hopefully they've got games at Expo.
    8:21
    Yeah, I would assume they're going to have games at Expo. I mean, American Pinball, for those of you that don't know, they are out of Streamwood, Illinois, and that's maybe 30 minutes from Pinball Expo. Yeah, I can't imagine they wouldn't. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and we're kind of fortunate because we have Stern Pinball that's close, about 30 minutes. We've got American Pinball that's about 30 minutes. Jersey Jack Pinball, their Bensonville, like, development office is 30 minutes from here. Spooky Pinball's in Benton, Wisconsin, which is about maybe 30 minutes from here. Yeah, right. On the Concord, maybe. That's about two and a half, three hours, I think, to get there. Yeah, but it's not too bad. Yeah. So, I mean, we've got a pretty nice little central location for some happening pinball. So that's good times. But going back to the media, though, do we have to double up your pace? And not only are you hosting, but you're also a media correspondent. Yeah. Listen, if somebody is interested in covering a manufacturer, please reach out to me. Special Win Lit Pinball Podcast at gmail.com and let me know what you'd like to cover. And I'm just going to ask that you submit like a real basic audition video or tape, rather, just to make sure that we're on the same page, and I'll happily walk you through what we're expecting. Because in all honesty, where I'm appreciating the efforts of the correspondents, the segment, how I envision it, has not hit full fruition for me yet. So I absolutely want to keep it going, but it's going to take a couple more correspondents to come on board. This is the idea, guys. Seven manufacturers, seven minutes every single week. That's it. So if you've got 60 seconds to dedicate your time, you don't have to go do interviews.
    9:46
    In fact, a lot of times interviews are detrimental to the segment because it ends up taking too long. Dr. John did a nice job with Scott there in a shortened segment. Yeah, he kept it reasonable. No, just get on the forums and see what's going on. Get on a Facebook page for your manufacturer. You don't need industry insiders. You don't need to be able to know what's going on on a personal basis with the staff there. Just cover it as a pinball enthusiast and submit your segment. And we'll upload it every single week. So, I mean, it's not easy, but it's by no means anything terribly difficult. So we encourage you to do so. Now, speaking of Stern Pinball, speaking of Stern Pinball, did I say sperm pinball? Yes, you did. Speaking of artificial insemination. Oh, my gosh, yeah. The new offering, and it just happens to go into Elvira, House of Horrors here. So those games are on the line and they're shipping. The LEs are shipping first. And, I mean, I think that's pretty exciting. I can't wait to see general feedback from the public for people getting the games. Dude, I would be surprised if we don't see unboxings within a week now. I would say, yeah, you will probably see unboxings, if not at the end of this week, next week at some point. Yeah. So I hope to get one in the streaming studio because you know how I feel about Elvira. Has your thoughts really shifted at all since? Did you get a chance to watch the stream, the Elvira stream? I haven't. I've been bouncing back and forth trying to get some things done. But, you know, I really just want to jump on and play it, you know, in all honesty. Sure. I understand that. Did you get a chance to look at any of the stream or no? No. Okay. Honestly, I kind of chose not to, in all honesty, because it's so close we'll have it soon enough that I really, you know, this would be the first time since we've been doing this that I want my first impressions to be unjaded. Not tainted in any way. Yeah, dude. My own first, you know, like seeing a new pinball machine on location. Yeah. Because that's kind of one of the things that we kind of lose, seeing some of that.
    11:42
    I agree 100%. So I jumped in for about maybe 20, 25 minutes because I just wanted to see how some of the shots were being made. And I was interested to see with the LCD how they implemented the animations and how Elvira was tied in. So, again, I mean, we definitely want to play the game. And honestly, I do want to come back and look at the stream and hear them talking about it. But, you know, we're so close that I'd rather play it first than watch the stream. Yeah, and the stream was fine. It was fun. There were a couple things where I just didn't really call to me with the Elvira pin as I saw it on stream. But you have to realize, you know, the code's early. It's on a stream. A pinball experience in front of you is not what you're going to – it's not going to match what you're going to have versus seeing something on a stream. So Jerry's still out for me, and as it should be, nobody should make a final judgment on a game until you play it. You didn't buy a game yet? No, I didn't. I'm hoping what happens is we get one for the stream through Flippin' Out. And then if the game calls me, like I hope it does, I'll just ask Zach if I can just buy it. Because it'll already be here. I'm assuming it'll be a premium. I don't know that we'll get an LE here. I don't know that it makes sense to open up an LE. I don't think he's got any LEs left. Yeah, no, I know he's sold out of LEs. But I've known Zach to pull a trick or two. Or have it out of a hat occasionally. Out of his hat. So we'll see. Now, we had an interesting conversation that actually a topic that you brought up to me earlier. And I'll let you kind of go over this if you don't mind, because as soon as you had said it, I thought to myself, now that would make for a pretty good pinball conversation on the podcast. Let's not talk about this too much on the phone. Let's get into it, though. I mean, so why don't you walk us through the discussion that you kind of proposed to me earlier today? So, you know, everyone's been talking about, you know, new pinball machines, new pinball machines, new pinball machines. and, you know, the seam isn't what I want or this, that, or the other. No one seems to be, not no one, but, I mean, there's, you know, a lot of blowback on some of the stuff, you know, like Jurassic Park with code or Wonka with audio clips or, you know, everyone's got their gripes about pinball machines. And it's like, you know, I mean, if we kind of went back to the heyday, you know, would you rather see five games a year or would you rather see two games with more stuff implemented and a higher cost? So, you know, it's interesting to think about if you think about it from that perspective. So you're talking about quality versus quantity for pinball releases. That is the headline. So, for instance, would you rather see Stern release five to seven decent pins a year or one pin that's killer for that one particular year? I mean, is that kind of a safe? Yeah. And with Stern, I would have to say that it would probably have to be like two machines a year. Well, in all fairness, I don't even think two machines a year would work for them. No. I think they have repeat buyers on every release, and I don't think it's a sustainable business model. But for the sake of conversation, I mean, do you want quality or do you want quantity if that was something that you could kind of cash your chip in for? What do you think? Well, here, let's be clear right off the bat. I'm not saying that what they're doing is wrong by any means. It's just an interesting facet to think about. And if they had more time, because these development cycles on these games are 10 to 12 months, sometimes 14. But they're nowhere near a year and a half to two years with Williams or those deadlines back in the day. And those games also weren't nearly as complex as the games are today as far as code. Yeah, especially computer and stuff like that. That being said, the games that are here today don't seem to be as over-engineered as they were back in the day either with groundbreaking mechs and packed play fields. I mean, that whole process to me seems to have been simplified or streamlined, you know, for the better or worse, depending on how you look at it. Well, I mean, you and I talked about this in, like, Elvira. I would have loved to have seen a Boney Beast ramp. I would have loved to have seen more ramps, or at least more identifiable ramp in Elvira. I agree with you 100%. Now, is that a big deal? No, but, I mean, it's just something that, you know, what would you rather see? More titles or less titles, but more time taken in the creative process where the engineers and designers aren't rushed as much. Code is more developed. You know so when you hear these people that are complaining about code and stuff like that you know I almost want to propose that question to them You know would you rather two games a year where the code is done they only going to fix bugs and that it and not keep advancing the code And, you know, what you get is what you get and that's it? Or, you know, would you rather something that they're going to go back and, you know, polish Ghostbusters, for example. They came back and polished it. Game of Thrones, you know. So, I mean, they're still evolving on some of these older titles. But to your point, yeah, it took years for those to get their final polishes. So I see your point. It is, would you rather see something, one or two pins from a manufacturer get released and they're just solid and good to go? Or do you want to see pins that come out more frequently but maybe don't have as much involved in the process? A little less polish. Sure. What would you rather see, personally? See, I was thinking about this, and I'm really on the fence, man. I mean, there's part of me that says, well, if it's my dream theme and Steve Ritchie was doing Getaway 3, you know, that one game for the year would suffice me because that would be a dream theme of mine. Of course, everybody else in the pinball. Now, we have other manufacturers, too, though. So let me throw this at you. What if, I mean, let's talk about, like, the more dependable major manufacturers. And right now you think of Stern Pinball as one. Yes. You think of Jersey Jack Pinball as one. You think of Spooky Pinball as one. a company that consistently comes out, releases a game, hits their deadlines. American Pinball recently, they've come through with two games, and they haven't left anybody higher or dry. No, no, they haven't. Who am I missing that are currently manufacturing pinball machines on a regular basis and considered part of the top four or five? I don't know. I think that's pretty much the main players. So what if we did this, just again, for the sake of conversation? Would you rather have all these manufacturers trying to work on multiple games a year, and right now Spooky doesn't necessarily try to do multiple games in a year? No, no. I think they have a sustainable idea. One game, one line, run it for one year. They're not killing themselves. You know, if the great pinball depression ever comes again, dude, Spooky would be the one, you know, be one, the contender to stay alive. Their overhead isn't nearly as much. Okay. So would you rather have the other three manufacturers, Stern, Jersey Jack, and American Pinball,
    18:18
    would you rather have them trying to get multiple titles out per year, or would you rather have each one of these manufacturers put one pin out a year and they put everything they got into it? So maybe first quarter you've got your Stern release, second quarter you've got your Jersey Jack pinball release, third quarter you've got your American pinball release, and then fourth quarter you've got your Spooky pinball release. I think that would be the only way that I would like to see more quality over quantity. And I never want the quality to suffer. No, you don't. But for me, I mean, I'm really into the new releases. And knowing that a new release is never more than like 90 days away is, to me, very, very appealing. And the games, there's not really any duds that are coming out that I would consider right now. I mean, everything seems to be very playable. Oh, yeah. And you know what? I mean, everything that's coming out now, dude, it is polished. It is refined, you know, and they keep on going back and redoing stuff. So, I mean, on that front, no, I wouldn't want to see that stop because, like you, I enjoy new releases. It's just when you hear some, you know, some of the complaints about code and stuff like that. And I get it. I mean, we're not talking about, you know, a $20 toy from Toys R Us. Yeah, right. We're talking about a piece of commercial-grade equipment that's going in your basement as a toy. I think the only reason, I mean, and in a perfect world, I think the quality, there's room for some of these manufacturers. to maybe put a little bit more in a pinball machine. Where I think Stern is doing more, I still think they can still do a little bit more as far as maybe putting some more stuff on a play field and that sort of thing. Again, I understand it's a business, but I'm a consumer, and if people are asking my feedback, what would you like to see out of Stern Pinball? You can't argue with the amount of machines that they're releasing every year. You can't argue with the fact that they're always on deadline. And their customer service is good, and they've got a sustainable business model, and they do try and take care of the consumer. But I'd like to see them keep pushing forward and keep adding things to these play fields because Jurassic Park's got more going on it than some of the games that had come out prior. I want to see a push in that direction. So I don't want to sacrifice quality for quantity. In a perfect world, again, you would like for them to coincide and both be driven. But it's an interesting thought process. If they scaled everything back and they put more into a machine and came out with these super limited edition machines that were actually super machines and not necessarily just something that's based on scarcity or rarity, would you take two machines from Stern a year instead of seven? And I think that all just revolves around theme, too. Now, realize, I mean, when you throw this into the equation, you're not going to have – I don't think you'd have your L virus. I don't think you might have some of the Deadpools. You'd have your Jurassic Park. You'd have your Batmans and do some real higher-end IPs over some of these smaller ones that might be more niche. Not saying that Deadpool's niche, but I think when you compare the Deadpool brand versus the Jurassic Park IP. Yeah, well, let's take Deadpool and Jurassic Park, for instance. In my opinion, two extremely fun games. Some of the most fun games that have been released in the last 5, 10 years. I love both of those games, but could you imagine if they had a bigger team and a bigger bill of materials and they were able to just dedicate three times the amount of time and resources onto that pinball machine? It would be ridiculous. And at that point, that's where the quality, I think, would absolutely outweigh the quantity of more frequent releases with less in them. Yes. Okay. See, and then this brings me to the other question. So if we actually give them one giant team for an extended period of time, do we see the return of a wide body from Stern?
    22:06
    Probably not. That's not their thing. Are you a wide body guy at all? I mean, a little bit off topic here. I mean, I like Demolition Man. I really like Wizard of Oz. I like wide body games. I don't have a problem with them at all. I mean, there are some people that are just really just bent on the idea of a wide-body game. And you hear Gary Stern talk about it's just not feasible for us to do wide-body games. It's a waste of time. Nobody should ever do that. Jersey Jack had wide-body games that, you know, you saw. Well, Pirates of the Caribbean was their last wide-body game. Hobbit was a wide-body game. Wizard of Oz was a wide-body game. But then you had Dialed In that was like a standard body. And I just, I do like the wider games for whatever reason. I don't know if it's mental. It makes me feel like I'm getting more in there, but I like the feel and the look of a wide-body pin. I just always have. Okay, but are you willing – so let's say Stern came out with a wide-body – Which they most likely will never do. No. Right. But here, dude, we're living in Fantasyland right now, so let's shoot the wad here. It's episode 72 1⁄2. It's like between 72 and 73, so this episode is Fantasyland. It's like the Twilight Zone episode. Exactly. So Stern comes out with Baywatch 2.0, and it's a wide body. Is that where you're going in Fantasyland? Why not, man? Dream big. Baywatch wide body. Baywatch kind of plays like a wide body a little bit. It does. It feels more packed. Take a very similar layout to that with all those wire forms. Yeah.
    23:30
    You'd have to put more in it. You know what should have been a wide body is Houdini, American Pinball.
    23:36
    All those shots were so tight. If that's a wide body machine, think about how it opens up that play field. But then you'd have to give him more time to develop that game. Quality over quantity. And I think that game could have been even bigger than it was. So do I. So, you know, I mean, it just begs the thought process of what would change and what. So there's a lot of variables. I mean, obviously you want to always see quality, but do you sacrifice quality for the lack of releases? I don't know. It's just interesting to think, to talk about in regards to the manufacturers. So I'm going to give you the tough question. I'm going to cut you off here. Yeah. I'm going to pull a Ken Cromwell. Good.
    24:10
    So do you think that we're sacrificing quality now on some of these games? Yeah, I do. Okay. I do. And it's not necessarily for – it might not be a conscious decision to say, hey, listen, we're just going to have to sacrifice quality. But I think when you think of a company that is more into assembly and manufacturing, where pinball is the passion for the designers, the business has to be focused on units and profit margins, I would assume. Yeah. And you know what game really brings this home for me? Where, you know, quantity versus quality. Attack from Mars. Knowing that that game originally had that ship that was supposed to hover down. Sure. You know. That always annoys me when I hear it's like, well, we had this great toy or this great mech in the game, but it added like $40 to the pin and they had to pull it out. And I think to myself, man, I would have happily paid an extra $100, $200, you know, to have that mech in there. And then that $40 added to the to the bomb makes no difference because you're still profiting on the on the mech or even leave a way to put it in and sell it in your aftermarket mods thing. I hear a hundred bucks. I hear stories, man. And it's just like, wow, that's really unfortunate. But again, I don't know. We don't work for a pinball company. We're not pinball manufacturers. And I'm sure it makes sense. And dollars. Right. Oh, yeah. But I do see a trend in a positive direction where it looks like we're getting a little bit more on these games. Elvira, when I first glanced at Elvira, and I'm just going to use it as an example because it's the latest pin that's been released.
    25:44
    Looking at it and thinking it was packed was not what I thought. I'm like, okay, wow, this is pretty open. It's a fan layout. The House in the Middle is cool because it's moves that change a state, and I like that. But again, visually, it looks very, just like, and I don't mean to pick on Stern, but Black Knight Sword of Rage Pro. You look at that and you're just like, where's the rest of it? Did they stop having another box? Right, right. But, I mean, it might play well. I don't have a lot of time on the Pro, but the Premium I like. And I think that's kind of why I've always gravitated towards Premiums with Stern in particular. And even like with Jersey Jack, getting LEs, I've always preferred that because I can't afford the LE at Stern and I can't afford the Collector Edition at Jersey Jack. but that middle tier lets me feel like I got everything that was intended in the game and nothing's tripped out, so that's like a mental block for me. You're comfortable there. Yeah, yeah. And honestly, I mean, here, if you go back, you know, eight years ago or seven years ago and, like, Transformers, and I hate to bring up Transformers and stuff, but I'm going to go over games that I know. You're talking about games that you're familiar with. Very familiar with. Absolutely. So, you know, Transformers LE. Dude, it had powder-coated armor. It had a different trans light. The artwork on the side was a little different. um shaker motor and i mean that was it i mean it wasn't oh and two extra mods okay but now they're you know on the leaser added an invisiglass mirrored back glasses and um shaker motors and i mean that there was a shaker motor on transformers too but i i do they have stepped up at the bar quite a bit from you know a time when we were you know barely lucky to get pinball to now well there's a little like a shaker motor for instance i just think a shaker motor maybe with the exception of like a baseline model like it should be in a premium i mean you shouldn't have to put a shaker motor in a premium or in a middle tier it should just be in there it's like it's a shaker motor it's it's it's got to cost them 30 bucks 40 bucks to put a shaker in there and uh you know what give or take yeah yeah don't don't i don't know i don't know it's always puzzled me again just kind of when you take everything item by item and you're like okay well if we sell 4 000 of these you know and it costs us an extra 10 you know do the math it's $40,000 that we spent, but it's like, yeah, but maybe if you just factor the cost in. If you sell 200 more units, though, because of that. True. It is what it is. Let's think about quality over quantity, and let's apply it to something else. What about pinball shows? Back in the day, there were just a few shows that were kind of out there and people knew, and Pinball Expo in Chicago probably being the main show, but now it seems like pinball shows, there's one every week somewhere, It seems like. Yeah. Or every other week. It seems like there's two a month. Now, some of these shows are a lot more well-known and there's a bigger following. And some of these shows are just getting up and started. Do you think that, like, the quality is lessened per show because the quantity increases? Do you want to see less shows, more quality? Or do you want to see more shows and maybe the quality isn't where it could be if you just had a few shows? See, I'm going to be biased right here, though. Yeah, okay. And I'm going to say I'd rather see quality because we have Expo in our backyard. Yeah. So for anyone that lives in a somewhat rural area that doesn't have pinball shows, they're going to say, you know, they're going to be opposite of the fence. Yeah. But, yeah, dude, I, you know. Well, I think we always want to see quality in everything. But it's like, what's the tradeoff for that? And I think shows are one of those things where it's like. Well, you can't have every vendor at every single show. Exactly. Right. So it's like you kind of spread that thin and vendors kind of pick and choose where they're going versus if they had four shows a year. Let's just say one northeast every quarter and then you like an international show or something like that. Does that make more sense?
    29:28
    I don't think so. I like that there's a lot of shows because I think a lot of people that normally wouldn't be able to make a trip to go to a show can find something at some point that's close to their house. And I think that's important. But and the tradeoff there, too, is, dude, I like a lot of the smaller guys that are in that community that bring all their parts and stuff like that. You know, a big pinball swap me kind of a guy. So, you know, on that aspect, believe me, I like the smaller shows. Yeah, sure. Some of the bigger shows don't really have that. I want to hit a couple of the smaller shows next year because I think it's, I think it would be fun to kind of have something that's a little bit more personal and maybe not as crowded as some of the other shows. What about code updates on pinball machines? Do you prefer these micro updates that come out every so often or do you prefer to wait and have massive code updates? Do you prefer the quantity of frequent releases or the quality of major updates? I'm good either way. Okay. You know, I mean, knowing you're not having a game that's completely coded, you'll never have to touch it is great. I don't like microcode updates. Really? I know they're necessary probably for bug fixes and something, but if I see a code update on a pin that I own and I'm all excited and I just see, like, the change log and it's just like, ah, we went ahead and added this for a drop-down target. It's going to be a half second off from the timer. And I'm just like, oh, man, I want to see, like, a new mode. I want to see a wizard mode in there. I want to see, like, a big, big update. You want to see, like, a surprise insert. I want to be able to play. It's just a surprise insert. Yeah. See and sees itself on the play field and screens itself. No, no, no, no. An insert that literally says, you know, you know, surprise. And, you know, there's a new mode in there. I want to see it like a code update. Like if I play the machine, I want to I want to feel like I realized there was a code update. So in that, I'd rather have quality over quantity. I get that. This is a fun one. How about this one, Bill?
    31:09
    Quality or quantity. content providers for pinball like podcasts streams youtubers uh certified reviewers do you like to see there's a new more content bugging me his name's ken i wouldn't be the first person man i'm kidding no i get it i was wondering where you're going with that your leg a little bit now i'm like what are y'all hearing over there no about this ken guy nothing but love man that's okay um like do you like the frequency of like let's take podcasts because we do podcasting. We're a once a week show, but there are other shows and Canada's Pinball Podcast, for instance, he can go three, four, sometimes five a week. Oh, yeah. Do you like like more of a scheduled complete podcast or do you like Pinball Nerds Podcast Orbital Albert that guy sometimes multiple times a day Do you like the frequency or do you want them to kind of hold back and try to offer more as far as not that they're not putting out quality content. No, no, no. But you can put more into one show when you do it weekly. Like what's your tradeoff or what do you like there? Right now I kind of like the balance because you have those ones that are intermittent that fire when they can. Yep. And then you have ones that fire up on Monday. I agree, man. I like the frequency of podcasts because once you listen to them all, for instance, like I like to there are my shows that I go to and I knock them out on Monday or Tuesday whenever they're released. But then I know I'm not going to hear from these guys again for another week. And it's kind of like that that lull where it's like, man, what Monday is one of the most fun mornings of the week for me now, because I know I've got some fresh content. But yeah, but knowing that somebody else that that works on their own schedule and doesn't have to team up with a partner. And they go absent for a week or two. You're like, dude, what are you doing? Yeah, but at any point during the day, you could get an upload from one of those guys, and it's there. I love knowing that there could be a nugget that's thrown out there. So I do like the frequency. So you're kind of content with where we're at with that? I am. I do like quantity podcasts. What about streams? And it's funny because we do streaming, too, like once a week. But there are guys like a Jack Danger or a Dead Flip that's on every night. Buffalo Pinball guys, they've got themselves and their staff there on frequently throughout the week.
    33:22
    But then you've got Slap State Pinball Podcasts, again, a weekly stream, I think on Thursdays right now. Do you prefer more quantity with the pinball streams, or do you prefer more – quality is not the way to describe that. I think they all bring quality. I'm kind of content with that right now because it's been a little rough to have a little excess time to watch them. You're content with all this stuff, man. I kind of like where we're at right now. You know, yeah, I like knowing that, you know, pretty much any night you can kind of go on and see someone, you know, so that's a nice. Well, and you kind of liked where Stern was at doing their seven pins a year and everybody else doing it sporadically. Pinball shows you're content with code updates. You're content with content providers. You're dude. You're just you're loving pinball right now, man. I love it. What about YouTube shows?
    34:08
    What about they have certified reviewers? Now, I was asked to do a certified review for Jurassic Park Pro, and it was on straight down the middle of Pinball Show. It was episode 101, and it was an interesting process because to become a certified reviewer for pinball, because I didn't realize how stringent it was and how taxing it was. There was a written and an oral exam. There was a urinalysis, which I thought was pretty interesting.
    34:34
    You didn't have somebody come out to the house, though, right? This is all, yeah. Well, it was either that or I could hit like a Quest Diagnostics by my house, but they had somebody that came by. There was like some type of like a visual inkblot test, but it wasn't as like sophisticated as you would think. It was like a little more basic, but it still confused me a little bit. I guess I performed okay. I passed the test. You said butterfly. That was probably right. They all looked like butterflies. Yeah. But now I've got like this certified reviewer badge on my name, and I was able to review the Jurassic Park because I did pass those tests. and uh i don't know man now i kind of feel like ready to review everything i would you know what honestly youtube i would say i could use some more videos yeah more more more youtube videos and you know the beauty that i mean is that's so readily accessible um you know here you buy a game what do you do you pull up either you know straight down the middle or todd tucky or you just type the name into youtube and something pops up yeah right so it's always nice and honestly Our buddy Lee at Pinball Supernova. How did I forget Lee Dubs? Sorry, Lee, but yes, definitely. Buddy Kerry Hardy. Kerry's definitely a character. And I know we're missing a lot of people. Yeah, we would spend all night trying to figure out everybody. Yep. And we have love for everybody that does this. I love all the videos that come out. I would love to see more, in all honesty. You can't be mad at anybody that's offering content to kind of increase exposure of pinball, unless it's just nonsense content. And there's some of that out there, too. And some would argue that we're part of the nonsense, but we could be. But you don't know. On some of the YouTube videos, man, or some of the people that are doing stuff I see on Facebook and stuff like that, I just look at what they're doing. Yeah. You know, and I just cringe. I mean, even in my head right now, dude, I am just like wanting to throw something just at some of the quality of the work that they're doing. It's like, dude, you're just devaluing the game in my eyes because, you know. Oh, so you're throwing some shade. Some of the shade. Some of the quality in some of those videos. What did you say, on YouTube?
    36:31
    Not really YouTube, more or less Facebook. Facebook videos. Yeah, Facebook videos. Bill does not like that.
    36:38
    I've seen a couple, dude. Some misleading videos. Yeah, you're just teaching people the right, you're teaching enough instruction for people to be dangerous when I think that you should have a better foundation. Okay. As a collective, though, I think the majority of the community does a really good job. And absolutely, there's not anything that's out there that like makes me upset to lose any sleep or anything like that. But, you know, it is what it is. It's fun to be able to catch it all. And it's also fun to see how content evolves, because I think it's very easy to become complacent and kind of spin your wheels. So it's good to see like fresh takes and people coming in and offering different things. And when somebody pushes the envelope on something and somebody it might cause somebody else to kind of get to go in there in their ass a little bit. So that's always fun, and it's all good. It's good. So I'm digging it, too. I like where pinball content is as far as the consistency or the quality and the quantity. Are you ready to play Drain It or Save It, Bill? No. What about pinball mods?
    37:42
    Okay. Are you happy with pinball mods? With the quantity and the quality that's coming out now? Okay. Well, yeah. I mean, for the most part, there's some mods that really make you wonder why somebody thought that that might be a good idea. But again, if somebody's trying to improve a game or do something that's additive to a game and it's their way to get into pinball, I mean, I don't have a problem with it. Mods are – I like to tastefully mod machines, and there are major mods that I think are musts on a lot of games. Yep. But some of the smaller mods are – again, it's all subjective, right? It's just like art. I really think we're extremely pinball mod rich right now for the stuff that people are bringing. So that's one where, in all honesty, I'd never want to see it go backwards because I believe in a lot of these products that these guys are making are quality. Yeah.
    38:37
    I wouldn't mind seeing the quantity go up if they could keep going with the quality. It's a lot of effort that goes into a mod. And I just know backstories of some of the mod makers on how, I mean, they've got their own research and development costs. You get into 3D printing, and then you're getting into, like, painting. And then you're trying to distribute this. If you're not selling it by yourself, you're going through other sites. I mean, it's a major thing. And that's why, like, a lot of people are questioning the markup on the mods. But it's because there's a lot that goes into the mods. So, I mean. Well, it's like anything, dude. I mean, how much does it cost? Pinball's got a pretty big markup, too. I mean, if you really want to think about it. Well, yeah, it does, but you know what I mean here? It's not necessarily the cost of building the machine. Yeah. It's not the labor. It's not the cabinet. Yeah. It's all the research and development. It's the lights. It's the building. It's all this other. Employees, insurance. And we haven't even talked about employees, insurance, and we haven't even talked about licensing or music or any of this other stuff. Yeah. No, I get it. Everybody's got to make some profit. There's nothing wrong with making some money. And if it happens to be because you're doing something that you love, then even better, right? It's fun. Now are you ready to play a little Drain It or Save It? Now we can play Drain It or Save It. You always say Save It or Drain It. Dude, I'm dyslexic, so yeah. It's episode 72.5. I thought it was 27.5. Wait, is this 71.5 or 72.5? Oh, it is 72.5 because we recorded 72.5. It's like Naked Gun 33 and a third. Right, exactly. Yeah. Anyway, speaking of mods.
    40:10
    It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by Lermods.com, and they're offering you custom quality playfield mods and lighting for your pinball machine. L-E-R-M-O-D-S. Visit Lermods.com. Today, for those of you new to the segment, we bring up a topic of Fraser saying, we like it, we save it, we don't like it, we drain it. We'll go to Bill first. Are you ready, Bill? Sure. Number one, the Elvira Signature Edition, recently released by Stern. That's sold out. it's worth $15,000 in your eyes, train or save it? Well, I'm going to have to have you expound on the question. Is it worth $15,000 of my money or someone else's money? Do you think it's worth $15,000? Just looking at it from the outside. I think to the right person it is.
    40:56
    That's as blanket as you're going to get. I know it's a blanket statement. To me, it's not. I'd rather just go with the premium than buy something else. Okay. Here, in my eyes, you know, my budget doesn't allow for a signature edition.
    41:11
    But I would rather have a Jurassic Park Pro and a premium than just, you know, the one game. I'd have a lot more fun with two games. But if that's not your problem and you've just got, you know, piles of cash and you need to hide from the government, rock out with your signature LE. So you're draining it or saving it? Elvira signature edition is worth 15 grand. I'm going to save it for the person that can afford it. I will do the same thing. Whereas I would not have interest in paying $15,000 for an Elvira signature edition because it's just out of my budget, number one, and that doesn't appeal to me, that model, at that price. I can see where, and this is where I think it's genius, the limited nature of that pin at $15,000 and adding some extras on there, especially like that little couch. If you're an Elvira fan and you get a piece of that couch and it happens to come with a pinball machine, it's genius. That's pretty awesome. Genius, right? And I don't begrudge anyone that has the means to afford that. No, good. Or guess what? If that was my dream team, I would have it. I would sell three pins to get it. Bill, this is the thing.
    42:12
    If I was making four or five times more money than I am now and I was a huge Elvira fan like I am, I would have gone in on that signature edition without blinking an eye because that $15,000 would not have set me back. It wouldn't have impacted my life one way or the other. I could absolutely at that point do it. But, you know, I've got three kids, I've got college coming up, and I've got to spend wisely. So that's where, if I were to go in on that pin, it would have to be at the LE or premium level. Yeah, and let's be honest. I mean, if you're in this hobby and you've got more than one or two pins, you're probably doing all right in life. Yeah, I agree. So, you know, there's always people that are just still trying to get their first pin. If you have a toy worth $1,000 or more, you've got a little piggy bank, too. You can liquidate in an emergency if you bought properly. So that's good. So we're both going to save that. How about this? At Pinball Expo here in two weeks, we're going to see a reintroduction of Alien, the pin that was manufactured by Highway. Do we see Alien come back with another company making Alien at Expo this year, Bill? Drain it or save it? Drain it.
    43:11
    I don't care for the theme, and I don't care for how that all went down. Okay, but that's your personal belief on what happened. Do you think that we could see another company come in the Expo and say that, hey, we're making Alien?
    43:22
    Drain it or save it? Is that going to happen in your opinion? I'm going to save it. I think it will happen. Whoa, Bill, you think so? I think it might happen. Really? What do you know, Bill? Got some inside information there? No. You got something you're withholding? We're not insider trading on this deal. Well, it's drain it or save it. It's inside stuff. I'm going to save it because, you know what, here, everyone said there's no way we'll ever see the big Lebowskis get out of ARA and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I don't put it past that it couldn't happen. Okay. So I'll save it even though. Two things, some type of announcement at Expo that somebody's going to be making Alien.
    43:57
    It wouldn't surprise me. So Bill's going to say it. I'm going to drain it. I don't think that's going to happen. Do I think that it might happen sometime in the future? Potentially, yes. But I think that Expo, I think we would have heard something a little more definitive by now because that would be a pretty big cat not to let out of the bag prior to Expo. But would I be stunned if it did happen? Yes. Okay. But I'm not saying it will. I don't think that it will. But do you care about it? I don't care because I don't want to buy any of it. No. But if it happened, I'd be happy to cover the story on how that happened. You know, that'd be fun.
    44:31
    There's just too much turmoil with a lot of these companies that went under that pissed me off. Yeah, poor Suncoast. Rest in peace. Well, they filed for Chapter 11, so they're trying to restructure. Yeah, it's when they go Chapter 7 that that's the art sale. Right. The lower the bankruptcy, the more software. You want to drive on down to Florida and get your extra parts. Chapter 11, chapter 12, whatever it takes. Yeah. Right? All right, how about this one for the last one? How about this? Jurassic Park LE is better for your collection than Wizard of Oz standard.
    45:04
    And I threw you a little curveball there. Jurassic Park limited edition. You would rather have a Jurassic Park limited edition in your collection than a Wizard of Oz. Drain it or save it. Drain it. So you're really that high on Woz. Because are you liking your pro, your Jurassic Park pro? Oh, I really enjoy it. I haven't had as much time to play it recently. Sure. I got the mods on it, you know, the pin stadium, the mirror blade, or the graphic blades. The side blades? Yeah. But I literally just haven't had a lot of time to play it. But, I mean, if you were to say, you know, take either one, a standard Wizard of Oz or the JPLE, and I hate to say this, but right now I feel like JP shoots a little better.
    45:44
    Well, that doesn't surprise me, because I think overwhelmingly there's a sense of clunkiness in Wizard of Oz, as far as general feeling, but the fun factor and the pinball experience is there. And the theme and the whole family thing for me, watching it growing up with my sisters.
    45:59
    That's why Jurassic Park. Wizard of Oz will always hold a special place there. Okay, so you're going to drain that. I'm going to save it. I would rather have a Jurassic Park LE than a Wizard of Oz standard. And the only reason for me is that I like Wizard of Oz. I think it's a fun pinball machine, but I just have so much more fun shooting Jurassic Park as a whole. It flows better. I understand the rule set a little bit more. Maybe that's because I don't have enough time on Wizard of Oz. But as it stands right now, I'd go Jurassic Park LE over Wizard of Oz standard. Now, if you threw a little Wizard of Oz Ruby Red edition my way. Ruby Red or Yellow Brick Road? I would rather have Ruby Red than Yellow Brick. I don't understand the appeal to the Yellow Brick Road the playfield.
    46:41
    But why is the Yellow Brick Road Why does the Yellow Brick Road cost more without the Monkey Mech than the ruby red costs with the monkey mech. If you drop the price of the yellow brick road to under the price of the ruby red, that makes more sense. But I digress. Let's get through drain it or save it here. I'm sorry. I'm going all over the place. We'll go right back to this. How about that? Drain it or save it. Again, Elvira's signature edition is worth 15K. Myself and Bill both saved that. Reintroduction of Alien Pin at Expo. Bill saved it. I drained it. And Jurassic Park LE is more desirable in a personal collection than Wizard of Oz standard. Bill drained that, and I saved that. And that's Drain It or Save It, brought to you by Lermods.com. And my thoughts on Woz are just more personal opinion because of family and growing up. And everyone's got their different takes on it, so there's nothing wrong there. No, I get it. I mean, I get it, man. I mean, something's going to appeal to you that's not going to appeal to me, like Gone in 60 Seconds or Fast and the Furious. That's something you would love, and I wouldn't have any interest in that at all. Yeah. As a pinball machine. Fast and Furious 10, you wouldn't go see it. No, no. Not sure I saw part two. Two, three, four. Yes. Pretty sure I saw part one. But that's okay. I wanted to take a minute and talk about Twippies Now people are like what a Twippie So this week in pinball which is hosted by Jeff Patterson right I mean he runs the site Every year he does an awards show and that is This Week in Pinball or TWIP for short Last year it was at Texas Pinball Festival. And it's really, it's like, it's a People's Choice Awards for pinball machines that people get to vote on their favorite game, their favorite code, their favorite light show, their favorite YouTuber, their favorite sound design, their favorite podcaster. So all these things you can vote on. Now, last year when we came in to Pitball Podcasting, we were kind of getting our feet wet, and we weren't worthy of a top three nomination because – We'd only been doing it about five months or four months. I mean, I think we made a strong – I hope we made at least a dent in there, but this is what I'm going to talk about, and just briefly. This year I'd like to more aggressively ask those that think that we're worthy of a podcast nomination to consider letting us take your Twippy vote. Because for me, I would really appreciate being recognized with my peers with the work that we put in. And we're hoping that you're still enjoying the content. But to kind of be recognized and be on that ballot for a Twippy nomination or at TPF be able to see that, hey, we were at least in the running would mean a lot to us. So as we kind of go through the rest of the year, I think voting starts in like December, January for that. Yeah, we still got some time. I would like to make a strong push for letting people know that we think it's an important award. It would mean a lot to us. And if you think that we're worthy of podcasts of the year, your favorite podcast, please consider the vote. That being said, if you don't, make sure that you vote for whoever that you do prefer to listen to. Just because you're listening to our show, we realize it doesn't mean that we're your favorite pinball podcast. But if you're listening to three or five or ten podcasts, pick one. Make the effort to fill out the Twippy because I think the more participation in the voting process, just the greater the show. Yeah, absolutely. And the work show. And honestly, anyone that wasn't able to catch it, you can watch it on YouTube. Yeah. That was a great show and very well produced. It was good. Go back and check that out. Zach and Greg from Straight Down the Middle, they went ahead and they hosted the show, the Twippies. A lot went into that, man. I know how stressful that was for everybody involved, but it really came off as a well-done, well-produced, high-class award show. It felt like the Grammys, dude. Yeah, it really felt. I mean, as close as I'll ever be to the Grammys was sitting at TPF watching the Twippies. But that was fun. Being backstage and watching Jeff Patterson hand out the trophies. Yeah. You know, Jeff, Zach, and Greg were just nervous Nellies. I don't blame them. Because it was live. It was a live show. I felt bad.
    50:45
    But, I mean, they pulled it off in style. They pulled it off. Yeah. So, good time. Consider us for your vote. And, you know what? Actually, do us a favor.
    50:53
    If there's something that we can do to earn your vote that you think could make us a better show, don't hesitate to give us the feedback. And special when lit, pinballpodcast.gmail.com. We always welcome feedback and constructive criticism Absolutely That's good I wanted to follow up Now we talked about this last week on our show And that was we wanted to do a 24 hour charity stream On Twitch And I wanted to take a minute and bounce a couple things by you For those of you that don't understand what Twitch is You go to twitch.tv And you can watch people playing video games or pinball in real time You go into the search engine You type in your favorite channel And it will bring up the options for pinball or whatnot, you can kind of follow the channel and you can see when they, when they go live and when they're playing. So this is what I was thinking that we would do. We will go ahead. We'll do the charity. Now we've been streaming on the flipping out pinball, uh, streaming network. Correct. Right. So we've been doing that. Um, and it's been fun. It's been great. I don't want to beat a dead horse. If you haven't checked out at least one of these streaming, uh, episodes, so to speak that we've done, or you don't know how to do it, email me again and let me walk you through it. Let me link you to something because it's fun. Come hang out and have a good time. So let me know if I can help you as far as steering you in the right direction. Check that out. Now what we're going to do with the charity stream though, we're going to do it on our special When Lit channel. Not to get confusing, we do have a special When Lit podcast, pinball podcast, Twitch channel that's been dormant because we've just been streaming on the Flippin' Out streaming network. It's been sleeping. It's been sleeping. So we're going to resurrect that towards the end of the year and we've got some fun things planned moving forward with that, but I'm thinking for the 24-hour charity stream This is how it'll work. And if anybody else has any ideas or if anybody else wants to help with this, this is kind of where I'm going. It will be holidays for 2019. So we'll go into December. Okay. People are feeling the gifts of charity, I'm hoping, towards the holidays. When we stream for 24 hours, all the bits that come in will be donated to a charity. Now, we're going to ask everybody what charity they think that they would prefer the money to go to. I want to get 24 streamers each putting in one hour over the course of 24 hours. Now, this is the kicker. That might be a little hard, but we might be able to make it happen. I'm going to try to host the entire 24-hour period. And I know with your schedule, it might be hit or miss. But if you can come in, even for a few hours, that way if something goes wrong with the stream or somebody's having a problem or, God forbid, somebody gets hurt or sick, at least I'm here. I'm a great 4, 5 o'clock in the morning guy. Yeah, that's right. That's my zone right there. I would like to get 24 people on board to come stream with us for 24 hours. And if you're in the pinball content providing business, it would be fun, obviously, because you've got name recognition. Come in and do that. But if you're somebody that's local or wants to drive out and just wants to spend an hour at a time with us and stream the pin, that would be fun. I don't know what pin we're going to stream. That being said, maybe we use the portable rig, and maybe we try to stream one pin every hour. Maybe it's 24 pins in 24 hours. I mean, that would be kind of fun, too. That would be insane. So that's kind of the direction we're going with that. So if you're interested or if you have some ideas or some feedback or maybe you've done something like this before, please reach out to us. Again, I've said this a few times, specialwhenlitpinballpodcast at gmail.com or ping us on Facebook. But I'd like to start planning for it now because it's October. And before you know it, we're going to be into the holiday season. And I'd like to be able to get everything organized, kick it off, and then be able to take the check and donate to the charity before Christmas of 2019. So that's kind of the goal there. Does that sound like a plan? It sounds like a great idea, man. I'm looking forward to it. The hardest part, man, is going to be picking a game. Yeah. And whatever game we pick, you know, that music's going to be ingrained in our head for like two weeks. Forever, man. Yeah. Forever, right? Yeah. Maybe we'll do a virtual pin. No, I'm kidding. Yeah. I don't know about all that. No, I'm just kidding. But, yeah, so that's the plan. Again, we brought this up last week, and I want to make sure that we're going forward with it. So that's the commitment that we're putting down at this point. Yeah, reach out to us to change. Yeah, let us know what's going on. What's up with you, man? Before we close out this episode, you had a new acquisition this week. Yeah, dude, the last one for a while. You say that every three weeks, dude, and then something else comes in. You're starting to piss me off, man. You said the last one. You're starting to piss me off. You're like, this is the last one for a while. It's like, oh, are you going to go 20 days this time, Bill? What's going on? But I got rid of stuff to buy stuff for the most part. I know. Okay. I know. You know. A couple I didn't, but whatever. It's fine. Actually, I started thinking about that. William Rockefeller over here. Dude, I started thinking about the amount of pins that I've moved in and out of the basement this year, and it's kind of sucking. You were like me last year. Yeah, I was. When we had like 40-something pins coming in and out of here. I was nowhere near you. Oh, I don't know. No. You've been close to me in the last three weeks. No.
    55:46
    I don't think so. Okay. So what did you get? So I actually finally got the Elusive Unicorn. I got Cactus Jacks. Yes. And to my surprise, it works. Yeah. You know, typically whenever I get something used, it's, you know, unless it's like a two-year-old. Yeah, more misses than hits. But somebody had actually went in there and LED'd it, flippers work. It could use a set of rubbers, and somebody did some custom mods on it. By custom, I mean, you know. Like Lamp Cord? Not great mods, but, you know, it's reasonable. Okay. Reasonable displays work. Somebody put forth the effort to LED the Cactus Jacks. I think it's kind of nice. Dude, it's got to be like the only one, you know? Because you're making me want to play the game. I've never played Cactus Jacks. I just never thought I'd want to play Cactus Jacks, but I've heard you talk about Cactus Jacks since I've known you. Well, you've got a trans light of Cactus Jacks that you have at your house, and then you recently got a play field for it, and now it's here, and I want to play the game. I hope it's awesome, man. And now I might try and score the Whitewood. How do you score the Whitewood? So I went on Pinside, and there's a gentleman that actually has the populated Whitewood of that game. You're going to build a shrine to Cactus Jacks? No. What would you do with the Whitewood? Shut up. Don't worry. Put it next to Scott's T&A Whitewood? Absolutely. At the Pinball Life party? I don't know, man. I just think it would be kind of cool to have that. I mean, the cabinet's not – this is a very player's condition game. I mean, it's not worn down to the wood. I mean, a couple spots are rough, but, you know. So here, it's, you know, and you and I talked about this yesterday, and I'm really hoping that I don't have boat owners remorse on this. Oh, what was the saying that you said? The two best days of a boat owner, the day you buy it and the day you sell it. So I'm really hoping I don't get this in the basement and be like, this game is. Two best days of cactus jacks, acquiring it and selling it. Yeah, so looking forward to that. And honestly, I got some ideas on that already. Do you want me to help you bring that into the basement? No, dude, that's pretty late. I'm just going to have one of the neighbors do it. I'm happy to go over there, man. You're welcome to. I'm trying to invite myself over to your house. You're welcome there anytime you want. All right. I better get there within the next seven days because then nobody's going to be invited over there. No, dude. That's the only way you're going to see me is if you come over. Oh, well, you can't have new people in a house when you have a baby. You're out of your mind, dude. You're sterilizing for a couple weeks. No, dude. She's going to be drugged up out of her mind, dude, recovering. No, the baby, though. Oh, he's fine. I'm going to bring him to Expo. He's fine. He's not even born. Yeah, dude, he's coming to Expo with me. I got the baby satchel for the back and everything. Everyone gets sick at Expo. It's a pinball show. Everybody be prepared to get sick. If he survives Expo, dude, that's a good kid right there. Pinball shows always get you sick. Well, congratulations on the Cactus Jacks, man. Thank you, man. I look forward to you playing it. It's a big 10 days for you. You got Cactus Jacks, your Grail coming, and then you got... No, it's here. Right. It's here, and then you got Baby Bill coming. All in the same seven days, eight days. It's overload for you. You know, I wanted to talk about this, too. When you get multiple pins at the same time, we were talking about this. Oh, it sucks. It does suck because it's like when you get a new pin, you get into it, right? And you play it and you flip it and it's new, it's fresh, it's something in your collection that you haven't had. And there's that honeymoon phase and it's like, it's awesome, it's awesome, it's awesome, it's awesome. The problem is when you get two games at the same time. Or very similar. One of them always just doesn't hold up to the other one, it seems like. And it doesn't matter how good they are. You always gravitate towards one and that second one gets neglected. If you're new to the hobby, I always recommend try to get one game at a time because the few times I've acquired multiple pins at the same time, I was always disappointed in one that I didn't end up appreciating until I played it again down the road after I had already sold it.
    59:26
    Metallica is one of those games. What did I get? Metallica and Simpsons Pinball Party. Metallica and Simpsons Pinball Party, completely different games. Yeah. The same day. Yeah. In an acquisition, in a trade. and I just did not like Metallica just like what is this like I didn't like it it's like it didn't seem as fun it didn't seem as it seemed very open to me like as far it like seemed very bare but you went from a a game that you really really wanted and then when you got it you know you're like well yeah you know and then somebody offered you a good trade and you did it yeah but you know what though honestly I mean so I agree with you dude I wouldn't back up new games next to each other at least six to eight weeks spacing. But I mean... I'm bringing this up because of you, right? Because lately... So let's just go in reverse order. You had Cactus Jacks. Let's start in January. Well, let's go in what you've just gotten. Because it's easier for me to remember. Cactus Jacks, right? Yep. Ghostbusters Pro.
    60:23
    Munsters. Munsters Pro. Ghostbusters Pro. Oh, was Munsters after Ghostbusters? Yeah. Really? Yeah, by a couple of weeks. And that's what, like within the last 60 days, you got those three pins, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then a month or two before that was Demoman. And Transformers left. You had your Whirlwind that you built. I had Whirlwind left. And then don't forget Wizard of Oz. Yeah. It's a lot of pinball. But you know what? You're right. They weren't really grouped into where. But you're not getting a lot of time on your pinball machines right now. I haven't got any time on it. Dude, in all honesty. So it's like there's four new games in your basement that you have no time on, really. It's more than that. Yeah, that's crazy. So here's the hard part. So literally, I got Wizard of Oz in January. I didn't spend any time really playing it because I was trying to get Whirlwind together. Yeah. And that Whirlwind, that was a pain in the butt. And I only have a limited amount of time to work on things at any given point.
    61:20
    So whenever I go down there, it's, you know, do I actually play a game and enjoy it, or do I get one together? And half the time, it's get one together. um so honestly it wasn't until you know like two months ago that i really started getting deep into wizard of oz completing the yellow brick road and some of those other challenges um monsters because i was playing a lot of ghostbusters um i didn't really get a lot of time on monsters so monsters has suffered not that i dislike it you just don't have time on it i don't have time on any of them but i mean that was all done kind of by design because i knew once you know my son came, I'm not going to be able to say, hey, I'm going to go trade for a pinball machine. She's going to be like, yeah, no. Yeah, right.
    62:01
    So I'm just kind of preparing for a lot of harder times to try and move stuff in and out. And the titles that I got, I really wanted a lot of them, and I look forward to streaming them. I don't think you're going to ever see a Cactus Jax on stream.
    62:18
    You will, especially when Lit's going to bring it to you, right? Yeah. You're going to stream that Cactus Jax. You better stream it. And it's an Italian version. It's a re-import. Nothing says pinball like a re-imported Cactus Jacks. Yeah. I mean, they were using that the whole Circus Voltaire in its place. I love it. It was a wedge.
    62:35
    But, you know, whatever, man. It's fine. I mean, I don't mind that part because playing the dumb on stream will kind of be like a newer experience, too. Guys, again, streaming is something I never thought we would get into, and we're doing it, and it's so fun. please consider checking out any of these pinball streams that you see out there because it's such a good time. And if you want to spend time with us on Flippin' Out Pinball's channel, please do that. We would love to have you in. As far as anything else, Bill, you got anything else in your mind here before we cruise out here on Episode 72 1⁄2? No, I would just try and space out your new pinball machines. Space them out. Six to eight weeks apart if you can. Absolutely. If you're doing it for a reason because you're going out of town, well, whatever. But if you've got that luxury, do it. As you heard me say multiple times today, you can contact us via email at specialwindlitpinballpodcast at gmail.com. You can reach us on Facebook and at Instagram, specialwindlitpinball. All right. I want to go ahead and welcome aboard some new patrons, Tommy, Joe, Rodney, Jeff, and Courtney. Welcome to the patron family. Good to have you here. Thanks, guys. If you'd like to support the show by becoming a patron of the show, you can go to patreon.com and type in specialwindlitpinballpodcast. We've got different tiers and different giveaways, so we're appreciative of the efforts, and we're going to go ahead and we're going to give back to you as well. beyond what we're doing with content. So that's always fun. For Bill Webb, I'm Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.