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EP 26 - Cruising Through the Pinball Bermuda Triangle

Flip n Out Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·42m 25s·analyzed·Jul 3, 2026
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Hosts discuss Transformers' rising appeal, pinball cruise plans, and rumors about Dungeon Crawler Carl license holder.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Greg Bone discuss heat waves, Barrels of Fun's cruise event, Stern's Transformers pinball machine, speculation around the Dungeon Crawler Carl license, and the importance of giving games time to grow on players. Greg shares his initial skepticism of Transformers followed by genuine appreciation after extended play, highlighting designer Elliot Eismin work and comparing the game's design philosophy to a hybrid of Keith Elwin and George Gomez approaches.

Key Claims

  • Transformers is picking up steam and Greg believes it will be one of the biggest hits for Stern if not for the Optimus Prime issue

    high confidence · Greg Bone discussing his experience with Transformers Pro after multiple play sessions

  • Elliot Transformers (LE) design is a hybrid between Keith Elwin and George Gomez design philosophies

    medium confidence · Greg Bone's personal analysis and opinion based on gameplay experience

  • Transformers shipped at v0.85 or similar early code version

    medium confidence · Greg Bone referencing the initial code version

  • Barrels of Fun did the best job of surprise-dropping a game (Winchester) in recent memory

    medium confidence · Ken Cromwell's observation about manufacturer secrecy practices

  • The pinball rumor mill has become exhausting with contradictory speculation changing daily

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell expressing frustration about rumor reliability and sourcing

  • Tim Sexton worked on John Wick code and may have left Stern after its release

    low confidence · Greg Bone speculating about personnel movement without confirmation

  • Games like Deadpool, Halloween, and Transformers improve significantly with extended play time

    high confidence · Greg Bone sharing personal collection experience and philosophy about game longevity

Notable Quotes

  • “The rumor mill's working lately, it's a little exhaustive to me...if I can say, oh, Dungeon Crawler Carl's coming out from Multimorphic. No, it's coming out from Barrels of Fun. Nope, Stern's got it. Nope, American Pinball has it.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~12:30 — Directly addresses the current state of pinball rumors and speculation fatigue in the community

  • “This game, to me, is like the perfect hybrid that if you had Keith Elwin and George Gomez team up on a game...It has some unique, fun, wonderful shots...but you get a little bit of that Gomez rattle.”

    Greg Bone @ ~38:45 — Key assessment of Transformers' design merits comparing it to legendary Stern designers

  • “This is the most complete code package that I've seen in a long time come out of any company...It varies a lot. So it doesn't feel like you're doing the same thing over and over again.”

    Greg Bone @ ~39:30 — High praise for Elizabeth Eismin's code implementation and variety in rule design

  • “I don't want either one of these games to be a reflection of the sales be a reflection of his designs because I think he is a really damn good designer and I want to see him continue to make pins.”

    Greg Bone @ ~42:00 — Expression of support for Elliot Eismin despite commercial challenges with John Wick

  • “The games that I love the most and the games that end up having the most staying power are the games that I do not love when I first put my hands on it.”

    Greg Bone @ ~50:30 — Articulates a key philosophy about game appreciation and long-term enjoyment in pinball collecting

  • “Barrels of Fun probably did the best job of just surprise dropping a game on anybody that I can recall.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~19:00 — Acknowledges Barrels of Fun's marketing and secrecy strategy with Winchester

  • “There's no secret in pinball. I mean, and I'll give Barrels credit for keeping Winchester under wraps.”

    Greg Bone @ ~20:15 — Commentary on the difficulty of maintaining secrecy in the tight-knit pinball community

Entities

Greg BonepersonKen CromwellpersonZach MenypersonElliot EisminpersonKeith ElwinpersonGeorge GomezpersonTim Sextonperson

Signals

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Transformers demonstrates strong shot design and rule variety that improves with extended play; compared favorably to hybrid of Keith Elwin and George Gomez design philosophies

    high · Greg's detailed analysis after multiple play sessions praising shot layout, code variation, and addictive gameplay progression

  • ?

    product_concern: Optimus Prime's static appearance (not transforming) is seen as missed opportunity for game appeal, especially in Premium tier

    high · Repeated discussion of Optimus Prime limitation as a design compromise; comparison to Jaws' shark feature as example of mechanical upgrade value

  • ?

    code_update: Transformers shipped at v0.85 with complete rule set that required only polish, representing unusually comprehensive initial code package

    medium · Greg's statement: 'This is the most complete code package that I've seen in a long time come out of any company'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Dungeon Crawler Carl license speculation has created exhausting rumor cycle with conflicting reports attributing to Multimorphic, Barrels of Fun, Stern, or American Pinball

    high · Ken's frustrated commentary about rumor mill fatigue and inability to track sourcing; Greg's acknowledgment of plausibility for either Multimorphic or Barrels of Fun

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Greg advocates for Stern to continue supporting designer Elliot Eismin despite John Wick's commercial challenges, framing games as not reflecting designer quality

    medium · Greg's explicit statement about wanting Eismin to continue making pins despite sales concerns with John Wick

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.127

0:00
Hey, what's going on Pinball Land? Welcome. It's episode 26, 026 of Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast. My name is Ken Cromwell. I am one of the hosts. The other host, of course, is Mr. Greg Bone. And I'd like to start the podcast off asking Greg how he's doing and what's up in the world of Greg Bone. What's up, man? What's happening? Oh, man. Just surviving this heat wave. That's no shit, man. I'll tell you what. I just got back from Florida. We went on vacation for family vacation. Dude, I went out there to cool off, man. That was crazy. And it was like low 90s in Florida. We left here was like mid 90s in Chicago, but the humidity is different. And then we were staying on the Gulf side in Florida. And at least you get a little bit of a breeze that's coming off the Gulf. But man, that water's bathwater out there. I can't escape it. I came back yesterday. We're recording this on Thursday, July 2nd. And it was like, welcome to hell. It was just terrible outside. And it's gonna be terrible today. Terrible. It's just nasty. Like you said, even the pool water is like 93 degrees. And it's like we put a little fountain on just to try to cool it down. No relief. It's just horrible. Yeah. I mean, I've complained all winter long about snow and cold and stuff like that. Like, I would still prefer it to be like this than the polar opposite. Literally, I'll take some heat. But man, it's just treacherous outside. You know what this is though, Ken? This is that perfect pinball playing weather, just like what we talked about about all those nice Floridians. That's right. You know, ironically, I didn't see a lot of people playing pinball in Florida, but I didn't really venture out. I'm sure they're down there. But yeah, you made an excellent point. Now is dead days of summer. You're not outside playing anything right now. You should be inside playing your pinball machine. So I wanted to take a minute and welcome our new Patreon members to patreon.com slash Flippin'OutPinballPodcast where you can go and kind of experience the show in a little bit more of a backstage pass special way. And the new members I want to welcome are Josh, Wade, Alex, Husker, Mark, and Michael, all new Patreon. So thank you guys so much for the support. Welcome to Patreon members. So I've got a bone to pick with you. Uh-oh. And I don't know if you know where this is coming from, but I'm taking a little bit of- As long as it doesn't have to do with magic. I was going to say that for the end of the podcast. Just when you thought you escaped. So we started, and this will just take a second, so if you're not into the Patreon thing, no sweat. But we were using Patreon chat for a long time for the members to kind of just talk, and it's a cool community, right? Everybody's pretty laid back. It's very, it's drama free, which is nice. We migrated over to Discord recently because it's just a more robust experience. I don't really have a lot of experience, but it's just fun, man. And chat's popping. And there's not a time of the day where I don't open it up and there's some new banter going on. So thank you all you guys over there for contributing, except for one person, Greg, who is yet to contribute to Patreon. And we're getting the calls for that person to make an appearance in the in the discord chat. And I'm going to see if you can guess who that might be. I will. I will be in there shortly. I just life has been all over the place. So I know it sounds ridiculous, but to even open the app and to start getting involved other than like, hey, guys, bye. Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. Last thing you want to do is make an appearance and never come back again. But but we're all asking for you to come in when you get time, because especially with me being off this week, I know that you've been picking up a lot of the slack with Zach and I appreciate that from the both of you because it's been hectic, man. It's been it's been wild when I when I left last or I guess my last day was Friday. With Sonic just kind of coming out, man, I mean, that was a busy week last week. Transformers is catching fire. I know you want to talk a little bit about that because... Well, we've just had a whirlwind with Toten, with everything. I mean, it's just been, I mean, it's been chaos, like nonstop. And now with, you know, the Dungeon Crawler Carl, you know, artwork stuff kind of being leaked around and thrown around and all that going on. I mean, it's just like fuel just keeps getting added to the fire every week. You're right, man. And the way that the rumor mill's working lately, it's a little exhaustive to me because I like a good rumor. I think everybody kind of does. You're thinking maybe you're getting a little bit of inside information, and it's fun to speculate. But, I mean, it's every other day a new rumor or a rumor that everybody thought was true is now, like, flipping to the other side. It's just like, I mean, the rumors, they've lost their impact on me to a certain extent just because they're all over the place. And, you know, somebody mentioned it earlier, and I think it was in our Discord chat where it's like the blind squirrel gets the nut every once in a while. And that's kind of where it's heading towards, you know, in my personal opinion, because if I can say, oh, Dungeon Crawler Carl's coming out from Multimorphic. No, it's coming out from Barrels of Fun. Nope, Stern's got it. Nope, American Pinball has it. And I'm just using that as an example. One of those companies are likely to have that IP if it's coming out. But I'd like to see less speculation and more like, okay, you know, we have something or at least if you're speculating, it's based on like the most solid rumor or, you know what I'm saying? Like, right. Like, and I understand. Listen, if you have sources, you don't want to give up sources. Oh, yeah. I totally get that. But you know, speak of it like I have sources unless and I and I have to give credit, like, for instance, and Jason Knapp, he's kind of gone back and forth on this a little bit. And but I at least I appreciate the fact that he's saying that his gut is leaning him one way or the other. And he's not saying that what he's heard now is confirming this. So I appreciate that. Yeah. He's compiling what he's heard to make a rational decision or somewhat rational decision or just get a gut feeling. But just say, hey, it's a gut feeling. You know, when you're like, hey, you know, this is happening. Yeah, it's definitely coming. Yeah. And listen, there's been there's been some I don't know if you call it speculation. There's been rumors that have been reported with one. And we talked about this with 100 percent certainty that I know we both know 100 percent are not true, but it's not for us to get in there and start disproving it. But and it's funny because I can always tell when there's a new rumor when I wake up in the morning and then there's like 20 people asking to be on some interest list. I'm not a week goes by. He's got something going on. So let me ask you, I mean, now that we're talking about this, the dungeon crawler Carl, again, I'm not familiar with it. I know you've recently, you've grown to appreciate the IP and the storytelling and whatnot. And it seems like the two companies that are on the cusp of potentially releasing something or at least putting something out in the public as far as, Their next release would be Barrels of Fun and Multimorphic. This is what we're seeing online. Do you have a gut feeling that – and full disclosure, I don't know who has Dungeon Crawler Carl if anybody does. Like I would not mention it. I would not pretend to not know. I don't know. I don't know who has it. So anything that I say is speculatory. And let me be clear too. If you are – if you're willing to get into this conversation, I'm not even asking you who you would prefer to have the license. I'm just asking, like, who do you think is most likely to have the license? Yeah. And we could just make a game of it. Yeah. So that's the weird thing is, like, I think that if you would have thrown, like, JJP in the mix or Chicago Gaming or something like that, I mean, I could definitively say. But that's the weird thing about having Multimorphic and Barrows. Like, that license feels like it's right up the alley for either one of them. I mean, it's very plausible for either one of them. That's, like, the hard thing. And I think that that's what like with the rumor mill and all this generating, I think that that's what's making it difficult because it's so plausible for either one of them. I don't know. I for some reason. So when I first heard about the license, I thought it was it was a multimorphic title. I thought that's what made more sense. But just like you said, I could see where either company could have it and they could do it justice. If I'm going with just what keeps popping in my head, call to gut feeling, whatever else, intuition, anything, I would be leaning towards barrels.
Jason Knapp
person
Marshall Dixonperson
Stern Pinballcompany
Barrels of Funcompany
Multimorphiccompany
American Pinballcompany
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
Chicago Gamingcompany
Transformersgame
John Wickgame
Dungeon Crawler Carlgame
Jawsgame
King Konggame
Deadpoolgame
Halloweengame
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
Pinball Expoevent
Southern Fried Pinball Expoevent
  • $

    market_signal: Transformers demonstrates value differentiation between Pro and Premium tiers through interactive features (Soundwave ball dumps) similar to Jaws upgrade path

    high · Greg's analysis recommending Premium over Pro, comparing to Jaws shark feature and noting impact of ball dump mechanics

  • ?

    business_signal: Greg plans to move Transformers Pro to location after home testing period, then upgrade to Premium for personal collection

    high · Greg's statement about location placement strategy and Premium upgrade plan

  • ?

    event_signal: Barrels of Fun organizing pinball-themed cruise event as alternative to traditional expo format, generating significant community interest with hundreds of pre-bookings

    high · Discussion of cruise bookings, Barrels Reserve program participation, and comparison to venue-bound expo experiences

  • ?

    community_signal: Community experiencing fatigue with contradictory and unverified rumors, with Ken advocating for clearer sourcing and qualified speculation

    high · Ken's extended commentary about rumor quality, appreciation for Jason Knapp's transparent speculation framing, and frustration with baseless claims

  • ?

    content_signal: Flip N Out Pinball Podcast migrated Patreon community from Patreon chat to Discord for more robust interaction; hosts noting increased daily engagement

    high · Ken's discussion of Discord migration and active community participation in chat

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Transformers demonstrates balanced design approach: accessible entry for casual players but with depth and challenge for experienced players through varied rule progression

    high · Greg's descriptions of game approachability combined with shot difficulty, code variation, and progression that feels 'on the cusp of achieving greatness'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Greg's opinion of Transformers shifted from initial uncertainty to strong enthusiasm after extended play, exemplifying broader pattern of games that improve with familiarity

    high · Greg's narrative arc from initial skepticism to calling it 'pretty freaking magnificent' and comparing favorably to King Kong; pattern confirmed with Deadpool and Halloween examples

  • 8:32
    I'm for the sake of a good conversation, I'm going to say Multimorph, and we'll just see where it goes. We should do an offline wager. We do an online wager. We should start pinball wagering companies. We should start like a DraftKings of pinball and like just start making bets because especially with all these rumors and shit going on, like throw your money on it. Like where are you at? Like we start becoming bookies. We're trading like the predictions markets. Yeah. I wonder if we could get on Kashi or whatever. I wonder how you like you implement something on there and have them to like, you know what I'm saying? Can you submit something like we should do that on Kashi or something just so we can start wagering on pinball rumors. The problem is there's way too much inside trading that goes on in pinball. Too many people know what's going on for real. Oh, yeah. You can't regulate it. There's no secret in pinball. I mean, and I'll give Barrels credit for keeping Winchester under wraps. And my whole time in pinball, as far as like when I started really getting into the reveals and trying to figure out what's coming up and reading online and taking it all in, I think Barrels of Fun probably did the best job of just surprise dropping a game on anybody that I can recall. Oh yeah, by far. Barrels has their, they've got a cruise lined up where they're inviting people to go out. And that's kind of interesting because with the pinball at the beach thing that happened, that was the kind of the tropical pinball show that takes place in St. Pete Beach. I think it's been running for two years. Marshall Dixon over there runs that really, really fun show. Barrels of Fun's like, hey, you know what, instead of a show, let's just bring a bunch of pinball people on a big ass cruise ship and set sail for five, six, seven days. Are you a cruise guy? I'm not a cruise guy. I hate cruises. Zach is a giant cruise guy. My wife loves a cruise. So they literally thought that they had me talked into a cruise. And then the Hantavirus came out and I said yep see that exactly why I don go on cruises guys because I a germaphobe I know all the bad shit that goes on cruises Like it it terrible People are always murdered falling overboard getting sick No no Yet they're still marketed heavily to the public as a fun destination to go. It is. Zach swears by them. Zach loves a good cruise. Here. Here's the problem with the pinball cruise. I think it actually sounds appealing. Like I would really like to do it. Here's the problem is you, you know how it is at expo and everything. We would never be able to relax. We couldn't sit and have a drink. We would never be able to lay on the deck of the cruise ship. Like people always want to converse and talk to us. So it's like I would I would have a hard time being able to actually ever relax. It would be like working. That size big enough to where if you wanted to, because you don't want to stay in your room. I've been on one cruise and it was like, I don't know, 30 years ago. It was a carnival cruise. It was on the fantasy or something like that. Went to the Bahamas. It seemed big. I enjoyed the fact that it literally three thirty in the morning after a day of drinking on deck, I could go back to my room, pick up the phone and in order a chocolate milk and like and like grilled cheese. And it would just show up in 20 minutes. I mean, it's amazing to me. And then it had a 24 hour pizza bar there. I love pizza. You know, at 24 hours. Yeah, that is appealing. But the little room we were in sucked. Like, that was claustrophobic. Those cabins are small. There's like a hole the size of a Frisbee that I'm like peeking out. I'm like, oh shit, what's going on out there? There's water. There's some water out there. I don't think they could pack enough hand sanitizer for me on there. There's like nose prints on the glass smashing your face and they're trying to get a little bit more of a panoramic view. I like that they're thinking outside of the box. I do too. It's neat. It's expanding pinball. It's like what we all talk about. It's like that next little step. I like any addition to pinball. And they kind of tied it in because they started the Barrels Reserve program, for better or worse. Personally not a big fan of it, but we'll see how it pans out. But as part of the Barrels Reserve, you get invited to certain functions on the ship. But they invited everybody that is a pinball fan of all walks of life to please come and celebrate on the deck with them. I think it's going to go over well. Yeah. So surprisingly, I shouldn't say surprisingly because I wasn't sure. I'm like, a cruise is a big commitment. But I'll tell you what, reading online, a lot of people are already booked. I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. I was like, wow, that's pretty fast. Like, I don't know how many. Yeah, there were. How many people you think go on that cruise from the pinball side of things? You think it goes over 500 people? Hmm. I'm looking at Pindul right now. The over-under is 499 and a half. That's a lot of people. But I could see it because it's appealing. Is appealing. I think it's more appealing in a lot of aspects than just dedicating three days to go to a pinball show where a lot of times you're stuck. There's nothing else to really do. Like, for instance, I love the pinball show. I love Pinball Expo in Chicago. But unless you're willing to Uber, you're kind of like there's no walking off the grounds unless you want to cross the expressway and stuff to kind of go over to Woodfield. You're kind of just secluded to that area. Whereas if you go to Southern Fried Pinball Expo, it's great because you can just you take a path. You go over the expressway and you're at Truist Park where the Braves play. And they make this huge fan experience around the ballpark. All the streets are closed off. There's a lot of restaurants and businesses and microbrews and things like that. It's just really, really fun. And in fact, I know Southern Fried Gaming Expo is coming at the end of this month. I think it's like the 30th through maybe August 2nd. If you have time, that's a really great show to check out. I really became fond of that. Texas Pinball Festival, pretty similar to where you can walk around and Frisco is pretty nice. It's like it's a newer area. I like Frisco a lot. I like Frisco too. What else is up in Greg Boneland? Oh, so I'm just, I don't want to roll into this. I've been excited to talk about this. So I got my Transformers Pro and I got it from my, one of my locations. I was going to put it out again, hot as balls. Don't really want to be outside other than in the pool. And I was like, you know what? Like I need to get this out there, but I think I'm going to take it to the basement for a little bit. Like, I want some time on it. Yeah. The game just appealed to me. So I want to try it. So I unbox it. I set it up and I'm like, put a, put a game on it.
    15:12
    And I'm like, Hmm, I don't know. I don't know how to feel about this. On Transformers. Yeah. Yep. Transformers. And I was like, um, okay. I kind of go both ways. There's something I feel that's missing from this game. I don't know what it is. Like, is it a transforming Optimus Prime by any chance? Hold on. I am going to get into that. It's another one of those for better or for worse. I'm going to get into that. But so I put a couple more games on there and I'm like, OK, like I still don't know about this. Like, I don't know why. Like, I didn't have it up loud because I'm completely out of space in my house. So I had to literally set it like the bottom of my stairs. So there's not a door to our stairs. It's an open staircase. So I couldn't have it up loud so that it's bothering the family, blah, blah, blah, blah. But so I know I wrote you and Zach and I was kind of like, man, I don't know what I think about this. I'm not sure, but I need more time. You know, I speculated that in the message to you guys. So here's the thing is like I walked away from it and I was like, I want to go back and play it again. Like I want to play. So the more that I played it, I'm not talking about time. I'm not talking like 25, 30 games or something stupid on there, but I put, you know, I played this past weekend pretty good. And I will have to say the game is pretty freaking magnificent. Oh, good. I didn't know where you're going with that for a second. Yeah, it grew on me so much. So, so I will tell you like something that stood out very, like even those first games and I wasn't sure about it. Elliot Eisman's design, like I love it. Like there is so much going on in there and I might catch a lot of shit for this. I don't know by saying this, but I'm fully aware with what John Wick was. I liked him with John Wick. I liked what John Wick was. It was a brutal shooter. It's tough. Reminded me a little bit of Gomez.
    17:10
    What this game does, though, and this is where I'm probably going to catch some shit, but I'm telling you I'm not wrong.
    17:16
    This game, to me, is like the perfect hybrid that if you had Keith Elwin and George Gomez team up on a game. Hmm. Because it has some unique, fun, wonderful shots, like shots just packed into this game. But, you know, if you don't hit some shots clean, you kind of get a little bit of that Gomez rattle. But it's, dude, it is a good game. And Elizabeth's Code, I mean, like what people say, I mean, it's already started off, you know, what does ship at it? 0.85, something around there. I don't know off the top of my head, but here's the thing is like, this is a complete game. It needs polishes to make it, you know, to liven it and brighten it up. But this is the most complete code package that I've seen in a long time come out of any company. And, you know, it's, it's like that basic great nineties feel to this game. Um, like, like her, her code is just spot on. It varies a lot. So it doesn't feel like you're doing the same thing over and over again. I've just hit the flashing shots, you know, hit the blue arrows, hit the yellow arrows, you know, it varies quite a bit. And, you know, I think that this game would be one of the biggest hits in a long time for Stern if it wouldn't have been muddled by the Optimus Prime. Okay. And like, I don't, and I'm going to get into that in a second, but something that I'm adamant about that I want to fully express is, and I don't know Elliot at all, never met him, I'd obviously like to, but I don't want, like, I hope that Stern keeps him around and keeps giving him opportunities because I know John Wick wasn't, you know, a massive success. Transformers, like you said earlier, is picking up steam. I think it's a great game. I hope sales do pick up on that because I don't want either one of these games to be a reflection of the sales be a reflection of his designs because I think he is a really damn good designer and I want to see him continue to make pins. Well, when John Wick came out, and I'll ask you because at that time I was working for a pinball company, so I wasn't really paying too much attention as to what was happening from a lot of the feedback with John Wick. Do you think that that game held back because of design, or do you think it was held back initially because of lack of code? I know the whole gun gate thing, like I get that, but it seems like this poor guy, and I say Elliot, there's always like one like exploited thing that happens with this guy's releases, you know, with the whole gun gate where, hey, there's no guns anywhere in the artwork on John Wick and there was a little bit of an uproar here on Transformers. We have, hey, this Optimus Prime, he's static, he's not moving or anything. And from a design standpoint, I don't, I've shot John Wick like five times. Yeah. I thought it was fine. But it flows. It's good. Again, they're just tighter shots. And it is brutal. It's quick. And this game is quick. This game is a fast game. But it's very doable. Flipper control is amazing on this game. You have some chaos with some pop bumpers and slings and some stuff in it. But, I mean, it's a fair game. But Wick, I think, was a trifecta. I think the gun gate thing, the whole gun uproar, which to me was still absolutely ridiculous, I think that that hurt initially. I think the lack of code for a while on that was a little bit of a hurt. And again being not so much of an approachable game which is his design gave that game a bad rap But again man it not like if you like Ghostbusters if you can play Ghostbusters if you a Houdini fan I won even compare it to Houdini That's unfair because Houdini is not, it's nowhere as brutal as Houdini. But, you know, if you like a tougher game, like Wick is there, man. Like Wick is good. It's not, it's not an unachievable, unplayable game. It's just, it's going to be shorter game times. Who was on lead for code for John Wick, Greg? I believe Tim Sexton. I believe Tim worked on it. And it's a good code set, man. It's a good code set. Like, I don't want to take anything away from Tim for, you know, the early release of that code because it's a fun rule set, like fighting the bad guys, everything you're doing, you know, earning the medallions or whatever in there and having the hits that you have to go out and put. Like, it's fun. It's neat. But Transformers is just more. Because Tim left Stern. So how long after the release of John Wick did Tim decide or they parted ways? I don't know. I thought there may have been some. I think that that might have been some. I don't want to speak on it because I don't want to. Yeah, I'm just I'm speculating. Because I just don't know. I don't want to prematurely speculate wrong. The lead code guy goes elsewhere. So, I mean, maybe that's a reason why the rest of it could have been a little longer to kind of come out. Because you said now the codes are in a pretty nice spot, right? Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. And people love like I know a lot of pinball people, pinball players. They love that game, man. Like it's it's it's a good game. But I think it also because it's it's a little more challenging. But, you know, Transformers is not like that. Transformers is approachable, but the shots are there. But, you know, you get a lot of rebound. It reminds me of some early Sega games in a way because you have a lot of stand up targets between your ramps everywhere else. So you get a lot of balls coming back at you, you know, it's that quickness of it. But, dude, I don't know. Is there something that just keeps grabbing me about that game? Now, here's where I'm going to go a little different on this. I got the Pro because I was going to put it on location. When we went to Stern, I put most of the time on the Pro. Pro, yeah. And it's good. It is fine. But I do think that the premium is the way to go because I think having the balls fire out at you, having Soundwave with the balls dumping out, I do think that that is adding a lot more to the game and something that is needed. But I also equate that to Jaws. You know, Jaws was stripped down. There was nothing in Jaws, really. And, I mean, you had a captive ball in the pro. There really is nothing else. And, you know, upgrading to the shark coming out, the upper playfield, like that, that to me was a huge upgrade. I'm still an advocate. If you're going to get a Jaws, get a Jaws premium. And like I said, I think that you'll still love this game if you like a shooter, because you can get it flowing. Like, even though you get some rattle, if you're hitting clean shots, you flow on this Transformers. But I think that honestly, I will, I like this game this much that I will probably get rid of this pro or go ahead and stick it out on location and then bring a premium. Bring premium in? Yeah. Well, I know you're fond of the theme. Transformers was big. I do, but I'm not like a giant fan because you've always got everybody saying, hey, you know, if you're a fan of Transformers G1, you're going to like this game. That's exactly what I was saying. I mean, yeah. And I'm not like I like it. Yeah. If you're a fan of that franchise, especially the animated series. I mean, this is like this is what this I know that the Optimus Prime doesn't transform. And I get that's frustrating for some people. But from a pinball perspective, I mean, this is your shot. So yes, and I and I think it's it's solid. Like when I played it, I liked it. I didn't think it was the best game I'd ever shot in my entire life. But again, in fairness, what did I put seven or eight games on there at at the Stern invite? So and that's why I it pleases me to hear you say that initially and you probably played more games than the eight that I played. You weren't certain if this game was going to call you. But then after giving it consideration and keep, you know, keeping at it, you're into it now. And I think that a lot of pinball machines fall victim to early first impressions. Some people, I think, will have the ability to make that determination or at least convince themselves that they made that determination by playing a game a handful of times. But a lot of times it might take 30, 40, 50, 100 plays. Well, hey, this is a game. I like this game. This is thing. And I've spoken on straight down the middle quite a few times over the years. But I have found that the games that I love the most and the games that end up having the most staying power are the games that I do not love when I first put my hands on it. Deadpool was the same way. I did not like Deadpool. Deadpool's one of my favorite games. I remember that. I remember we had that conversation with Deadpool. Yeah. Halloween. When I first got Halloween, I thought, oh, this is a mistake. Now, it's one of the longest running games in my game room, and I still don't have any plan on getting rid of it. But I definitely despised that game when I got it. But, you know, I fell in love with it because I think it's like that thing that there's a lot more to it when you don't make a game super easy and you're just throwing everything at it when you first hit the start button. Like, I think that that says a lot about the longevity of having it. So yeah, I just think things like that just tend to those are the games that tend to be my favorite over the long run or the games that I don't necessarily like when I first step up to them. I noticed this too. Like for instance, when my kids were younger and they were getting into video games, we would pick up some really easy video games for kids to play. Even it's like crazy versions of Sonic the Hedgehog that were terrible games. Like nobody liked these games. And when you pick up and you play them because they're easier, it's like they're terrible. But after playing them for a while and getting into the rhythm and advancing, they become semi-addictive and actually not even tolerable, but fun. Yeah. Well, and that's the good, like almost to that thing, like I said, like this game is approachable. Right. But it's not like super easy where I'm just hitting every shot when I flip a flipper. And the code, everything else, it's one of those addictive things to where that like I'm like, okay, I know I can do better. Oh, I know I can get to that mode. Oh, I know I can get more points in that next mode. Like it's it's like on the cusp every time you feel of like achieving greatness with every yeah every game. So like that's that's the part I think that appeals to me the most. But yeah, I was I was taken I was taken by surprise on this and I haven't had anything like that since King Kong, which you both know that we we love the show. I love King Kong. I'm sad to see that game go. Actually, I don't even want to say it's underrated because I think it does well and it's sold well and people like it. But I don't think it gets the appreciation fully that it deserves. No. And this game is not. And like, listen, listen, I will eat crow to an extent. I do think the Optimus Prime would have been obviously the better choice. I think it would have added a lot to this game. I think especially if you stripped everything else off and you at least had Optimus Prime on the pro, that would have really added to that game. But I will stand behind that if you like a game that shoots, you like a good rule set, even the pro is still, this is a great game. And the assets, I mean, they're great for that series. That's the way to go. It's funny, too, because you'll even hear people right now in the current state of the game saying, oh, pro's the way to go. Pro's the way to go. You don't need all that extra stuff. It's the pro. It's like, well, if you don't get all that extra stuff, then why are we complaining about Transform Optimus Prime? Because he's not going to be transforming on the Pro either. But the one thing I wasn't really thrilled on on the Pro for me specifically were some of the some of the plastics like in the lower like I forget what plastic it was. Oh, it's the the dinosaur and then Soundwave. Yeah, the Soundwave plastic on the right. It just seems so large. So that's like that was not on video. But I wish I could give this person credit, but I don't know their name. I think it was on Pinball Enthusiast. It was on some Facebook page. There is a set. I can't remember. I'll take pictures of it and we'll post it on our Facebook. But if you grab a pro, already picked up a set. It's a six set of G1 Transformers figures and they fit perfect into the game. They're fully articulating for the most part. Not all of them, but most of them are fully articulate. Are these cake toppers by any chance or are they? No, wait, wait, wait, way nicer than cake toppers. I just look good. Because if somebody were to remarket those as cake toppers, then people would be complaining that people are putting cake toppers. Yes. No, no, these, these, like you assemble them a little bit. It's kind of like, you know, an upgraded Happy Meal or Wendy's toy and how you assemble some of that stuff. Like, it's like that, but they look very good. They're spot on. Like they fit the game. 50 bucks. Yeah, because I would rather see a static sculpt of Soundwave instead of the flat plastic of Soundwave. Oh, 100%. That's why I bought it immediately. Yeah. So if you can if you can mod that out and it's a kit and you don't have to pay nine thousand dollars for like an upgrade. Like that's pretty cool. Yeah. And it's not like, you know, when you grab action figures and it's like, oh, I've got a Batman 66 and I grabbed like, you know, an action figure from Target or Walmart and put in there of the Joker or something like it's not like that. Like it's not the joints and everything that you see. Like it looks like that they they were meant to be in the game. So, yeah, anybody that has a problem with that, like get on Amazon and look for those. I'll post the picture of the box on our Facebook. Oh, yeah, please do. I think that's great. That's great. How much is that kit? Do you know? Do you remember? It was 50 bucks, I think. It was on sale at one point for 40. But yeah, 50 for six action. Amazing. Okay. I mean, now, again, you shouldn't necessarily have to put money in your game to mod it, but why not? I mean, for 50 bucks? Yeah. How can you go wrong? It just looks a little better. It's nice. What else I think is worth noting here is because we're one week post Sonic the Hedgehog launch and we're kind of leading into the show with your feedback on Transformers. Sonic the Hedgehog, Joel and Jared just streamed this yesterday for Flippin' Out Pinball streaming. I did not get a chance to see the stream because we were traveling yesterday coming back home and by the time I got back I was just like out. So I plan on watching it today. I'm assuming the stream went well because I haven't seen anybody on the internet really melting down about it. So that's kind of nice. That another game that getting traction And as we kind of predicted as more and more people are playing it I think more and more people will get a better understanding as to what the game is about Because even when I started watching a little bit of the Joel and Jared stream this morning and when you get that top 2D view, that flattened view of the playfield, it is very difficult to understand what's happening between the upper and the lower because that upper playfield is clear. It's very difficult to understand. You almost need almost like a three-quarter player's perspective camera angle to kind of give you a better separation of the upper and the lower. But I'm hearing really good things about Sonic. The upper playfield, which was a concern for many, I think is people are starting to understand that's got a little bit more of a minigame appeal than most upper playfields do. There are several shots you can trap up on that upper playfield and it's not terrible to be up there. And some would even say, Greg, it's kind of fun to be up in the playfield. But I don't know what you've been reading online, but my Facebook, unfortunately, these days, my personal page, I don't call my personal that much. But when I do, it's not, hey, my cousin's son's birthday is happening or, hey, somebody got my friend got a new car. It's all pinball propaganda. The whole thing is. So that's that's where I'm getting some of my pinball commentary. But it looks like I mean, for the most part, I think it's it's won over the court of public opinion for those that were on the fence. Does that correlate to a second wave of sales? I do. It will. It will, especially once they start landing. I think that it very much is. So and that's a good point. As of right now, again, July 2nd, 2026, we haven't really been given any definitive timelines as far as what the production schedule is going to look like. What production capabilities are and when games are coming out every week, every two weeks, we don't know exactly how many we'll be getting as of yet. So you've got to be a little bit more patient with JJP when you compare them to Stern in that aspect because they're turning that line on for the first time. And, you know, they're at a little bit more of a scaled down production capability is like like a Stern pinball. So I would guesstimate here in the beginning of July, by middle of July, we should probably have a better idea of what the next four to six weeks will look like. Yeah, I don't I don't really see anything as like an extended forecast of, hey, this is what the next six months or eight months look like, because a lot of things things will change as parts get reordered and they're flipping games on and off the line. The other question, and I didn't have time to verify this yet with Jersey Jack Pinball, was the amount of lines that they have because I know for the majority of Harry Potter, they were making games on one assembly line. And when we were there, I think there was some discussion about a second line. I don't know if there's a third line, but the building's big enough where they can do that. In fact, at one point there was two assembly lines and they minimized it to one to just increase efficiency for making one build. And I'm sure there were other things that went into it. But you haven't heard anything for production, right? I have not. No, we haven't gotten anything yet. I know that there are some location games that might be be prioritized at this point. I don't know if those are in general for CEs, SEs and arcade editions, but I think there's a little bit of an effort to try to get those games. And this is on Jersey Jack Pinball side out into the public domain so that people can play them. And then obviously appreciate the game and have a better idea of if they want to buy the game or not.
    35:16
    I do kind of like that idea. I know that some people are torn. It's like, hey, get all these CEs on the line and get them into the homes of these people that paid all the money and they should be cutting the line. And and if you buy a first class ticket, you're not the last aboard. I get it. But, you know, I also understand from a company perspective where you have a new title and there is a large amount of people that would prefer to. You know, play a game before they decide to buy it. I would say the best decision or the best of both worlds would to be have two lines, right? Where you are, you're always pumping CEs and then you're switching back and forth between arcade editions and standard editions so that you're just getting them all out almost in unison instead of, hey, for the next six weeks, we're making special editions. Okay, well, that's great if I'm in line for special edition. And that sucks if I don't know where I'm at with my arcade edition or if I paid all this money for the collector edition. So be very curious to see how they how they approach approach the bill, because last time it was Harry Potter's that started the line first. And yeah, I mean, they were a huge seller.
    36:22
    Are you going to get a Sonic the Hedgehog? Are you going to put one on location? I probably won't put one on location, but I will most likely end up with one in my game room. Yeah, I like that. I mean, I just like we've talked before. I love Sonic. Uh, grew up Sega was my thing. So like, I'm, I'm, I'm very much leaning towards it. I just, uh, trying to figure out what I can get rid of. Like now that I've changed stuff around in my room, I I've got more limited space, so I got to figure out what's going to leave and I really don't want anything to leave. So it's like, uh, what, what goes, what goes and, uh, to be able to fund it, I need to fund it. Of course. In the studio now, I've got room for four pins, but I only have three. And I've got the Star Wars LE, Star Wars Fall of the Empire LE. I've got the King Kong Premium. And then I have a Godfather LE, Jersey Jack game. And I'm in the game. So it's like, how do I not own a game that they so graciously put me in where you get to fight my face in a game? So I had that. But I have room for one more. And with the way my kids, we all grew up on Sonic. I grew up on Sonic. My kids grew up watching Sonic. I've seen so many different versions of so many animated series so many times. I just think it'd be fun for everybody to be able to sit down and go through that Sonic Generations kind of approach to the game. So I hope to have one here. I don't know that it stays forever because nothing ever does. I don't bolt anything to the floor, probably with the exception of that Godfather game. And even if I needed space, I would fold that up and put it in storage because I just that's kind of a special game for me. But I kind of get in the need to stream a little bit again. Ooh! And, you know, I don't know if it makes sense to stream Sonic at some point, but, you know, some of my most favorite times with Flippin' Out Pinball was starting with that Monday Night Pinball, Flippin' Out Pinball. That was so much fun. It was just so fun, man. You guys did amazing. And we have so many people from the industry that are just a short drive away from the studio here. And I've spoken to some people at Stern and at Jersey Jack and asked if they'd have any interest in coming in studio and just kind of because it's a different thing. You're just kind of flipping. You're having a couple of beers. It's real casual. And I think there's some interest there. So I got to talk to Zach and see if maybe we fire that up again and got to have you come out, man. Have you ever been here? I'm trying to I don't think you've ever been out here. No, I mean, you've been in Chicago, but I'm in St. Charles. Nope, haven't been out in St. Charles. I was going to come out one time and ended up not making it. We're far enough away where it's not a casual drive, right? Because you're what, about three and a half, four hours from me? I'm four and a half hours from downtown Chicago. Okay, I see, probably about four hours. Four to four and a half, depending on the time. That's why when we hang out, it's at Zach's house. And Zach's only been out here a handful of times. Again, it's just the driving distance. I've only been to Zach's twice. Oh yeah, yeah, both those times. It's strange that we're all so close, but we very rarely ever see each other in person. Maybe that's why we all tolerate each other. I know. We're not. I don't know. We talk so much on the phone. I'd say maybe that's why we don't get tired of each other, but we're on the phone too much. All right, Greg, we'll wrap this one up here today. Might have some more information on a couple new games. That Dungeon Crawler Carl rumor could fluctuate either way. We'll keep an eye on that. If something major happens, we'll go back live. Our next scheduled podcast will be in two weeks. I was looking at our annual kind of stats for our podcast, and I think we did like 34 public episodes last year, even though we're on like episode 26. We had all the first impressions episodes and stuff that didn't count. So we're coming in well under the one every two weeks. And then we've got the episodes that go out on Patreon. And those are those are private episodes that are only released to Patreon members. So we're doing our best to keep good cadence there. I appreciate all your hard work. If you're looking to get a new pinball machine or an arcade game or anything new to elevate that game room, you can go to FlippinOutPinball.com today. You can check our whole inventory. If you're looking to find our used inventory, you go to the FlippinOutPinball Facebook page. There's a pinned link at the top of the page that says inventory. You can click it. You can see what's there. If there's something that appeals to you in the used inventory, scroll through the Facebook page. You'll see the pics and the descriptions. If we can help out with sales service, you can email us. I'm Ken at flip the letter N out pinball dot com. Greg, what's your email? I am Greg, G-R-E-G, at flip the letter N out pinball dot com. If you would like to be added to an interest list for a rumored pinball title, because occasionally pinball rumors do pop up, you can email me directly and only me directly. I'm your least path of resistance to get on that list at FlippinOutPinball.com. And then finally, a couple selfish asks, FlippinOutPinball Podcasts. We have our own separate social channels. So if you're hanging out on the Facebook page, FlippinOutPinball Podcasts, if you don't mind giving us like a follow, that'd be awesome. It's free and just helps us get the messaging out there. If you're on YouTube, our last episode, Greg, which was the Sonic the Hedgehog first look, the legitimate first look, was all video. So you get to see Greg in the flesh. I'm up there and we're talking, but we're also, you know, you've got all the video that we took when we were down at Jersey Jack Pinball. We've got all the marketing pictures there. So as you're following along, there's a lot of visual aids there. And while you're on our YouTube page, Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast, please go ahead and subscribe there. And then finally, Patreon is where all the cool people are hanging out. Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast can be found at patreon.com. You can search Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast, or you can type the whole URL. P-O-R-L at patreon.com slash flick the letter N out pinballpodcast.com and we're there but that was a mouthful man that's how that's how we do it that's how we close it out appreciate it man for Greg Bone I am Ken Cromwell don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball so long everybody.