BlahCade Pinball Podcast this is the BlahCade Pinball Podcast i'm your host chris rebus aka shut your trap joining me as always halfway across the world is jared morgan hello everyone how's it going it's been a while it has been a while and uh uh we apologize we tried to clear up jared's uh image quality but uh i'm gonna blame my internet again yeah the the internet the pipes are clogged between australia and uh the u.s yeah west coast at the moment i will count it as a win if uh for once we don't have jared freeze midway through the uh podcast and can hear him the entire time look if if that happens to work this time around, I'll be very surprised. But, you know, we'll see. I'm just sitting there looking at the bottom of the screen as I look to your image there. And yes, I'm sorry. The tweety bird will stay. I am not going to X. Sorry. I'm on Twitter. You're not going to X it? No. Yeah, that's right. It just looks like a tools thing. Let me have the... Yeah, it does. You know, it looks like the logo for Twitter X looks like the dev tools for Xcode on Apple computers. I look at it every single time. I go, that looks like Xcode. I'm like, I have no idea what that is. No, but trust me, it does. Anyone who's a nerd and he does development on Mac will know exactly what I'm talking about. Let's see, what's going on with you, Jared? Well, the reason why we didn't really record last week or last fortnight because i was under the Carl Weathers and it turns out that i had influenza a with a nice side of pneumonia yay that was good fun uh but yeah i'm heaps better now um it's mostly cleared up so that's that's nice i'm feeling some degree of normal again um so yeah that was sort of like my last fortnight really feeling pretty And it's essentially summer still for you guys, right? No, it's towards the end of summer, and it's into autumn now. Okay. Yeah. All the same, not when you normally think you'd be getting a cold. No, Influenza A in particular, they have this particularly horrible version of pneumonia called mycosomething or other. It's M.pneumonia. And it was everywhere. when I contracted it. Wow. Everyone was suffering from it. Like, teams at work were all down with it. So, yeah, it seems to be an early flu that's going around. So, yeah, it's not fun at all. I've been tinkering. I noticed a new backdrop that I've got here. Oh, wait, what? It's not virtual. Hey, wait a second. There's a shelving unit there. Yeah, I've got shelving there. With toys. Lego. I see a Lego Voltron. There's a Lego Voltron in pieces and there's also an Optimus Prime on the top. There's a couple of Chinese knockoff Lego sets being the This Is Fine meme, which is necessary, and a portal gun from Rick and Morty, and then there's BMO down the bottom keeping the other two Voltron lines happy. And then just being obstructed by my mic is... Looks like a spider. So it is the name which I always forget, but those horrible black things that are in the Matrix. Oh, okay. Sentinels. Sentinels, yeah, it's a sentinel. So, yeah. So, yeah, I thought I'd just put it there because the corner was boring and it hides the drum kit computer behind me. Ah, hitting the wrong buttons. There we go. Yeah. All right. I have been tinkering with 8-Ball Deluxe and trying to record video for it and bashing my head against the wall because I'm not solving anything. And I don't want to make a video until I've actually come up with a solution. But you're clueless about repairs. I am clueless about repair, but that doesn't make for a good video if you don't actually come out with a win at some point. Yeah. The things that I'm battling against, actually, I'm going to tell you the one thing that I solved today, and I was just kind of laughing. It's a total bad hack. But what I've been dealing with is my lights that aren't coming on, which I've managed to get everything on except for one light. It's my number nine ball, and I know it's not the socket or the wiring, because if I move the entire pin configuration down one notch, that light comes on. so I'm like okay it's got to be on the board that's I mean would that make that be your assessment right Jared if yeah if it's if it's if you move the entire connector one slot down and then that light comes on that means it's not the socket it's not the wiring it's got to be it's not the pins well it's got to be the pin on the board I would think probably yeah yeah so that's why i in the comments i think i'm the only one who commented on the video um extensively but i used i used the video as like a this is my my diagnostic tips for you yeah um to try and work around that i think really that era of belly board and it was the same with the paragon i got downstairs um i know this because i had some really weird lamp issues as well where where two lamps were coming on at the wrong time and it was all very strange i thought the most simplest thing that causes this is just dirty dirty or oxidized terminals so i got in there with some 400 grit sandpaper and just burnished all of the pins back to pretty much like um raw metal um and and then put the connectors back in and lo and behold everything worked flawlessly and all the lights were nice and bright and i didn't have any more logic issues and so yeah it was just dirty pins and that's an easy and inexpensive fix to do i did uh take some sandpaper now granted it was a thousand grit because my choices were either 250 grit or a thousand grit um thousand's fine and uh i gave him a good floss and still same problem um so okay And now Jared's also seen the back of my lamp driver board, and they're not the shiniest of soldering points. I mean, they don't need to be shiny. They just need to be air gap free. And I noticed that some of the ones on the back there, based on what I saw in the photo, looks like they look a little bit cold. Yeah. and what they call cold joints where it's not a nice bubble of solder over the pins. There's like air gaps. So reflowing those would be the first thing I'd do next. Yeah. And honestly, you don't need fancy tools to do that. You can just get a low wattage soldering iron and just go and reflow those pads. and you should be, that will be the next thing to rule out. Or buy new boards, which I know you want to do. Yeah, when reflowing, though, it's not just a matter of touching the soldering iron to the point, though, right? You want to, when you're doing soldering, you want to put your tip on the pin as well as the pad. You want two points of contact on there. so you do that and then you just put a whole nice new bead of solder on there as well you don't necessarily need to suck it off oh okay um with like that's what i was wondering just yeah you just reflow a bit more on there and just what you're doing is over time of course those pins especially if they're lamp lamp pins they heat up and cool down heat up and cool down and that's what causes the the cold solder joint and also some of the solder to melt away from the pad and stuff like that so what you're doing is by putting a nice fresh coat of solder over the top you're number one you're reflowing the solder from the top of the board to the bottom because a lot of these boards have um like a sort of uh a channel that actually brings the solder from the top of the board to the bottom um probably not on that era so much i think they're either just on the top or on the bottom there's and there's no through solder channel but on like the belly Williams of the 90s, they actually did have a core, basically, of tin that ran between the top and the bottom of the board. And what you had to do with those, if they failed, was to actually just put a trace wire between the top and the bottom of the board to bridge the connection. Basically. But yours, I don't think you'll need to do that. You'll just be heat the pin and the pad and then just put a nice new reflow solder on there and that's all you need to do. You can get relatively inexpensive bench soldering irons that have an adjustable heat. Oh, okay. I was going to say, I've got the, you know, you plug it into the wall soldering iron and away you go. Otherwise... That's all right. As long as it's low, it's got to be below... I think the one I've got ranges between 20 amps and 50 amps. Well, 20 watt and 50 watt. anything higher than that, you'll damage your pads on the board. You'll delaminate them from the board. So, yeah. Yeah, the fun thing about 8-Ball Deluxe, you can literally buy virtually the entire table. It's like, there's plastics. I mean, there are plastics available. There is playfields available. There is all the boards, except for, interestingly, the Squawk and Talk. Can't seem to find a brand new Squawking Talk that anybody's making. But the driver boards, the solenoid, the MPU, the lamp driver boards, those are all available. Alltech makes all those. There's also another individual, Weebly, I believe, that is making them. They're not that much less expensive than the Alltech. The Alltech seems to look more modernized, modernized, whereas the Weebly looks like it's kind of trying to imitate exactly what the previous board looked like. But the advantage of both those boards is that they allow you to put LED bulbs into the table, whereas currently I cannot. Now, eventually I'm probably going to want to put LEDs because 8-Ball Deluxe is a pain in the butt to change the bulbs on. But for now, I'm just like, that's one of those expenses that if i don't really need to do it now i don't want to do it right now because i want to save the money for firepower which i know is going to suck a lot of money yeah right and it's going to take so much money to do firepower yeah it's gonna it just that needs a lot of help a lot of parts um and it doesn't help that it's been literally sitting out in the elements for quite a while there's a there's a heavy coat of ick on it that i'm gonna have to clean off um but uh yeah so it's just one of those things where uh the all-tech driver board as well the auxiliary board because able deluxe takes two lamp boards um altogether they're just under 200 bucks so i mean it's not like it's an extraordinary uh cost but um it's still a cost that i'm not exactly looking forward to paying um yeah the biggest issue that i'm running across and this one is just a head scratcher for me is that you knock down all seven of your stand-up targets then you knock down the eight ball target and it starts scoring consistently like you hear the noise of the score as if you're hitting one of the deluxe targets and that eight is just going making noise and it doesn't stop again until you put the ball into the saucer beyond the eight ball that resets everything right it's fairly consistent that it's when the eight ball target drops so i'm thinking that's where the issue is but i i don't understand like the gaps look normal to me from what i can tell i'm not sure what else is making contact or triggering or or causing this so i've got to do some troubleshooting on that to to figure it out the other option that you can um choose as well as far as boards go there's a company down here in Australia called Tangles Pin Parts. The website is tanglestech.com. This guy does his own boards, and the advantage of it is that you're paying Aussie dollar rates from US. So all the Australian operators, most of them use these boards down here, and they've got a lamp and LED driver board for both Belly and Stern. yeah there's actually a yeah they're the same a board that does both yeah so and it's compatible with eight ball deluxe um and uh yeah this thing is like it's got flicker free led uh led operation uh you can also put standard lamps in it um it's it's uses the exactly the same mountain points and everything so like it's 158 bucks australian so for both boards uh just for the lamp driver yeah amp led driver and then he's got another one which is the auxiliary board no i'm saying the auxiliary board so there's a lamp driver board and then there's an auxiliary lamp driver board uh yeah this one is a solenoid driver board for led display quick belly and doing games. Ah, you can send me the link. I'll take a look at it. See what's what. Yes. There's a lot of options this guy has. And they're really good. Anyway, the other thing that I've... where my hack was, and this will be featured in the video when I put it out, the seven bank drops, when all the drop targets dropped, they were just below the playfield. And the ball would get stuck there. and I'm talking slam tilts wouldn't move the ball out of that trough. It was basically a locking mechanism that you didn't want. Exactly, exactly. So underneath the solenoid that brings up, it just needed to flex up just a little bit, just enough to bring the rest of everything in line so the ball would roll off. And I'm like, what can I put underneath there? What can I put underneath there? And foam, I was like, that's bad because that's going to rot eventually or it's going to get a crease in the groove and it's just going to go lower and lower. I'm like, I need something solid, but I don't have anything solid. And then I was like, wait a second, because I had two coins just sitting in the trough. I put the two coins underneath. I'm like, it's not quite high enough, but I wonder. I found three pennies, put them on it. It was like perfect. So double-stick taped the pennies together, put a little double-stick on the bottom of that, put that underneath, ta-da, problem solved. And then I commented that there's actually adjustment screws that you just use. No, not on that one. not on the seven bank it's on the inline there is on the seven bank there's not that's that's crazy isn't it though okay so the seven bank yeah the seven bank has always been a problem because of just the fact there's targets behind it as well it's a very deep they are very very deep um drop type bank so if you think about it if the the targets went behind that you'd have a rubber basically pushing out the level of where the ball rests on there. And that would mean that the problem's solved. So it's just a design flaw with that particular game. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, there's the fun that's going on in the real pinball world of my house. Let's move into... What's that? I was going to say the seven bank, that when you had that bench, there's a lot going on in that seven bank drop target they use like full size solenoids to reset and drop the drop targets that's really interesting because in my force 2 with Gottlieb their drop target assembly has just relay relay coils and little trips and it just goes trip trip trip and it just does it like that rather than having this massive coil poking the drop targets. Well, and Williams eventually went to a fully electronic system. Yeah, right. That apparently has its own host of problems. Oh, yes. You know, usually the mechanical stuff I'm fine tinkering with because it's easy to troubleshoot. There's, you know, you try this, you try that. That's why this eight-ball target thing is frustrating me to no end because I'm like, it's got to be, I would think it's a mechanical contact point. Something's making contact and triggering. I just don't know where it is. So I'm going to, I told Jared, I'm going to put pieces of paper in between everything and then try and one by one figure out what's the issue. I definitely think it's going to be that singular drop target. And it's probably going to be like that era of belly, for some reason, required resistors inline resistors on all the switches and they are big and bulky and they notoriously snap the legs right off at the base of the resistor um so i would be lifting up the play field wiggling that and chances are it'll just be hanging on there by by hopes and dreams basically in which case i use the soldering iron and uh no i replace it yeah that's right yeah um All right, let's move on to some digital nonsense then, if we will. We like digital nonsense. Yeah. So I've been playing on the AtGames 4K cabinet a lot. I'm telling you right now, that's fun. That's the way. Oh, yeah? I don't want to play pinball on my PC now. It's just what it should be. You know what I mean? It's what I wanted the Pinsim to be, but I was still playing on the PC, and there was still the rotating screen, and it wasn't flat. It was like a good simulation. And the Pinsim was fantastic for VR, but then you were limited to only those VR games. Yes, that's right. With the AtGames system, obviously there's all the tables that are built into it, And I'll talk about those in a moment. But the physical, standing in front of the machine, being able to nudge it, being able to look up and see a DMD, look down, see the play field, it just feels right. And that's a fantastic feeling. And I did hook up my PC with my very old 970 video card in it right now home that and uh i did put some games onto there just to try and see how they running on there And some work better than others I will say this right now. FX3 works pretty damn well. I understand why people are kind of ticked off at pinball effects. Because what looks like the same tables, FX3 next to no lag. FX lag on this card. Now, you have to have a better card, then you won't have the flipper lag. But interestingly enough... Isn't 960 the base card? It's a 970. Oh, 970. That's what you've got. And I think, what, 960 is the minimum rating spec? I think so. Yeah. Right-o. That'll be the reason. But interestingly enough, FX2 runs just as bad as pinball effects oh really fx3 great fx2 not great not so great yeah really which i really thought was interesting um pinball wicked plays pretty good the problem is is it is not optimized for a cabinet at all um you literally have to first change the orientation of your main play field in order to play it in portrait mode, which I'm like, come on, guys. I mean, I know it's been out a while, and yet it's still in early access mode. I don't think they're really doing anything. It hasn't received really any updates in the last few years. It's going to remain in early access, I think, forever. And then there's no DMD support, none of that. So it's kind of a bummer. Because I did try, and I flipped everything and made it work, and I was like, hey, this is cool to be able to play, and it actually ran pretty good. So no worries there. The one that's surprising me is I put in Demon's Tilt. Now, Demon's Tilt also does not support DMD. No, it has its display. It has its display there. and there's enough customization in terms of zoom in zoom out that i can get virtually the entire play field uh on the screen at the same time it's just with minimal up and down movement um i of course turn off the shake turn off the blinkers uh because that's just too distracting to me um yeah well i actually don't i have those things on either for the exactly the same reason Yeah, it's just too much. Yeah, it really is. But it's great fun in cabinet display. I'm just like, this is that. Once Xenotilt gets its 20% sale, I'll finally purchase that. They had it for like 13 recently. I'm like, nope, I want 20%. Thank you very much. But yeah, no, that was great. I really wish. A lot of fun and hype. Yeah, I wish that they would throw some kind of support for Cabinet into it. Utilize the backrest, spread some stuff, but I know that they're not going to, which is a shame. But that was a good bit of fun, no doubt about it. I have actually experienced, what I did is when I was messing around with VR on the computer, I actually used virtual desktop and switched Demon's Tilt to a Tate mode and had it on what is essentially a 60-inch screen in VR. And I just went, this is the way I want to experience this from now on. But then you've got a VR headset on, you've got to change your orientation. And it's again, I'm lazy. when I want to go and play. Precisely. I don't want to mess around with stuff. I just want to go, I just want to turn it on and play because I don't have time to screw around. And that's like, you know, that's the same reason why I'm not getting into all the VR, like the Unreal Engine VR stuff because I just don't have the time to mess about. I want to actually, I just want to play a bit of pinball. I don't want to spend half an hour playing pinball and then turn off the PC because I run out of time. And that's what I'm really liking about this cabinet. You flick it on, within a minute you're playing, um you know the tables that are available to you to play right there turning on the pc since pinball is the only thing i have on it um it fires up really quick and so you just basically have everything set up so um it's all set up for landscape it's all done so you pretty much fire it up and it works yeah i already went through uh all the zen uh titles and oriented it correctly move the dmd where it needs to be so that's all set up and ready to go um right so really for you it is once you actually have it set up like that it is just turn it on and start playing it well and yeah and i mean i still have to fire up steam but once i do the baller installer they have scripting that allows you to completely skip all of that too and it just goes straight to the table so oh that's great yeah um so that once i get my new card that's when i'll be dealing with that um new card there's another reason why i don't want to spend money on the uh the all tech board because it's gonna cost me about it's gonna cost me almost 600 bucks or actually i think it is 600 for a new video card so um for an nvidia 4 470 super yeah that that will cost you about that much because they're expensive yeah i mean the non-super is is 550 and it's kind of like that's the one that's going to get phased out so you might as well go with the other one anyway um oh you know they're releasing they've announced um the uh the 50x series now you're always going to be chasing you are always going to be chasing so at some point you just got to commit um you You've just got to, like, what's the rule? You've got to buy the best card you can for the money you have right now. Well, and on top of that, because the motherboard that I have is four years old at this point, that's also going to be the source of the bottleneck. So at a certain point, it doesn't matter what video card you throw in, the motherboard's going to be your issue. That's true, the in-out on the motherboard. Yeah, yeah. So that's why it's like this is the point that I'm like, yeah, that'll be the card. I don't need to try and wait for anything else. You might also need to just put aside a little bit of extra money for a new power supply. No, power supply is good and what I have. I already checked. So the connectors on it will work? I have. On the 40X? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because they introduced this new pin style for the RTX cards that's like a new type of power connector. and it was one that was notoriously melting when people were overclocking the cards, but I think they've worked that out now. Yeah, so just check your power supply to make sure it's compatible. Okay, back to gaming with this thing. What I want to talk about, so recently, just a couple of weeks ago, they finally released the Gottlieb packs. Oh, right. on 4k yeah on 4k now they got lead packs these are from farsight who does not make pinball anymore um they released these packs initially for the uh original ad games hd pinball which came out what four years ago yeah uh it's been four years well it's been four well yeah it came out in 2020 during the pandemic. And even then, I had my doubts that they were going to be anything beyond what was already available in Pimble Arcade, right? If anything, I figured they, and I think somebody from Arcuda kind of expressed the same sentiment. Hey, that looks like what we worked on. Yeah. Yeah. So I have a sneaky suspicion that that's where this cabinet version of these came from. This is four-year-old software. Yeah. So when everybody was getting excited for, oh, the Gottlieb tables are coming in 4K, I was like, you're going to need to tamper with those expectations. They're coming on the 4K system, but they're not going to be 4K. No way. so I arranged for myself to be gifted codes for pack 1 and 2 now granted keep in mind each of these packs normally $25 $25 $25 per pack and how many tables in each pack so within pack 1 we're talking about Alice Garage Band World Tour Big Shot, Black Hole Bone Busters and Centigrade 37 of those I could really care less about Bonebusters. And World Tour, I was like, whatever. Okay, sure, fine. I really wanted it for Big Shot, Black Hole, and Centigrade, because I wanted something that Farsight did do fairly well, was the EM era stuff. Yeah, they actually did. Pack two is Cueball Wizard, which I enjoy that. Going Nuts, which I really despise. It's horrible. Jack's Open, NEM. Lights, Camera, Action. Gross. Got lead premiere. TX Sector. Early got lead premiere. Not bad. I don't think this is great. TX is actually pretty good. I enjoy the game. Yeah, it's not a bad game. And then Victory, which I actually really enjoy. It's just got a really poor rule set. Yeah. The layout is great. The rule set. The shots are so fun in that game. They are. I remember just, you know, when you get, when you, number one, you've got to work out where the shots are. Yes. This is the hard bit. But once you do, you go, oh, you're cool. And it just, it flows really well, that game. Yes, it sure does. So, hold on. I'm trying to blow this image up. There we go. Why are you? All right, I'm not going to get so lucky. Okay, anyway. so I load this thing up and the first thing I load up is Black Hole because I'm like let's see because here's the thing about Black Hole Jared knows this very well it's a square body oh yeah it's super chunky it's very wide and I was like how are they going to do this are they going to have a lot of apron what is going to be the game plan and I loaded it up and let's just show you what the image is that I see oh shoot our the very thing I want to show I'm blocking with our stuff let me hide our oh you're talking about the plunger lane, the plunger lane yes because there's a ball in there and let me guess the ball, I already know there goes you and where am I it's going to be oval isn't it Ah, not that one. Shoot. Where's my display? Why can't I figure out where the heck my display... There it is. Boink! There it is. Ooh, look at that ball. Oh, what is that? What is that? It looks like all the chrome's rubbed off it. Well, first off, there's that. Yeah. It looks like a ceramic ball. It has a matte painting finish on it. The image that's on there, it has a little Gottlieb logo. Is that what's on there? Yes. It's a Gottlieb logo. Okay. Okay. But that ball is not shiny in the least. But more importantly, it's freaking oblong. It is. Yes, it's oval. So they squeezed. I knew it was going to be oval. They squeezed. Look at the plunger texture. Look, what is going on with that plunger rod? It looks like the T-1000 has pushed a thin cylindrical finger in there. It's now the launch ball. Now, also, this is a zoomed-in photo. So you're seeing chromatic aberration from the TV screen being photographed. So ignore that part. Understand that the stuff is clear. But no, you're correct. The textures aren't exactly the most amazing. They're not 4K. No, not even close to 4K. That's for sure. No. Okay. They did, and you can kind of tell, make the apron cards readable. Yeah. Because if you looked in Pinball Arcade, those were a blurry mess. You couldn't read them. No. Okay, next image. No, they're pretty sharp. Okay, what are we looking at here? You see the ball. Does it look like it's touching the flipper to you? No. No, and yet it's cradled and captured. Yeah, and also it's got like a weird silhouette underneath it. You want to know what that is? That silhouette is the locked ball in the under play field. What's it doing all the way down there? Why can you see it through plywood is my question. Yeah, but I mean, what's it doing down there? There's no lock ball underneath. There is a lock ball on the under play field. You can lock a ball there. Yeah, but it's like stored way up the other end of the play field. I don't know what to tell you, but yes, you can. It is there. Now, here's the thing. I checked, and you can see this transparent ball all over the place. Like, once you've drained from the lower play field, you can see the ball travel everywhere. Underneath the lights, to the side. It's almost as if Farsight just turned on and off a layer. Yeah, for sure they did. Yeah, but they kept it there, still tracking? I don't know. If you play Pinball Arcade... They had to. Yeah, if you play Pinball Arcade... That's how they retract the ball in the game. This is present in Pinball Arcade also. It's just not as noticeable because you're on a computer screen and not on a giant image. Also, the angle when you play on TV screen or on your computer screen, that captured ball actually finds itself underneath the slingshot, so it's less noticeable due to the angle. I also think due to the angle, the ball looks like it's truly cradled, as opposed to here, where it's clearly not even touching the flipper. Something else I want to point out. Look at the posts. Those are not round. No, they're very hexagonal. Hexagonal. There is hexagonal lines all over the place. This is where they cheaped out on the Polycount when they were dumbing this down for mobile gaming. And since this is essentially a mobile platform, this is what Farsight produced. Terrible. Not good. All right. Moving on. Black Hole is the biggest mess at all. So then you get things like this. So that 1,000 insert, it looks like a poor sticker that was up-resed next to plenty of stuff that wasn't up-resed. You know, that plastic is hexagonal. Yeah. The clear plastic is just a little bit weird cloudy. That spinner is not anything amazing. There's like certain aspects that they cleaned up, like the plastic on the slingshot. Those were notoriously blurry. It's nice and clear, but it feels like a cutout just pasted on top. And let's not even begin to mention the saucer texture. Oh. You look at that. Yeah. What's going on there? Because that's horrible. It's horrible. there's there's i mean even the screw coming out of that post uh right on the uh uh to the upper lane it's not coming out the middle it's not coming out middle and it's also because i know got leaves the wrong screw it should be a flat it should be a um a cuphead screw going into that particular one and a bolt like that and i'm just gonna say this when i went up to visit farsight way back when, and I got to see them working on a machine, and they were able to do fly-by and change the angle of the machine any which way they want, I saw just how misaligned everything is. They aligned it for those table angles. But once... The viewing angle. But once you went into it, things were not aligned at all. because they basically to digitize the playfield they have to take it like top down yes and then right so if you think about it you go from top down to angled and then all the things that are sticking out from the playfield then have to shift and make sure they look like they're sitting flat on the playfield yeah and that's where the illusion breaks yeah um so you also have to realize that black hole was a day one release back in 2012 on pinball arcade these scans are from 2012 they never re-scanned the table so you're talking about 12 year old images here um and it's pain it's painfully obvious on this and victory as opposed to when you look at bone busters where everything looks really good because they got a better camera they got a better camera and a better way of scanning absolutely yeah all right let's take a look at some more uh some more things that what your 25 buys you. Wow. That's a little... Okay, so Big Shot. I just want to point this out. Big Shot looks great for the most part. This is the back glass. Okay? Big Shot. It's a two-player game. We have two reels. One looks real. Uh-huh. And one does not. And only one reel works. So the reel on the left... You can't play... The reel on the left is digital. and if you play two player, where it says ball and play, or excuse me, not ball and play, no, somewhere indicates, oh yeah, you see number one and number two. Basically, the two will light up for player two, but it will score on the player one's score reel. Oh, that's just whack. And then it dances back and forth. But even worse than that, really, you took a picture where your reel isn't lined up and you just have that zero not in place oh this is reminds me of when they left the keys and scared stiff and used that image oh yeah and that took them for three or four years to just take a photo of it yeah yeah wow the shortcuts here just for 25 i mean the thing is that there no way these going to be fixed No there no way They will not be fixed guaranteed No, they're just so slack. Okay, back to one last black hole. Okay. And let me guess, those digits don't actually rotate like an actual reel. No, they just change. Yeah, and there's no audio of the reel changing, which is a big part of an EM. That's a massive part of the EM. That click, that noise. It is the solenoids are the actual music for the table. Yes. Okay, back to Black Hole, because I wanted to point this out. See where it says credits and ball and play? Yeah. Those lights don't work. Oh, the displays don't work? No. Which means you have no clue what ball you are playing, because nowhere on the back glass does it say what ball you're playing either, because there was no digits on the back glass for that. the digits were right there in the apron and didn't they when they were doing the the display they actually showed the ball in play as like part of the display area yeah so they had the scores pop up in the corner and underneath it it said ball and it was there and they had this little you know stylized thing yes that is what farsight had done for playing in pinball arcade they have done nothing for this. So you literally don't know what ball. The only saving grace is it does have the four scores, and if you're playing two-player, it does keep the two scores on where they should be. Otherwise, you've got to keep track of what ball you're on by yourself. You have no indication of knowing what ball you're on. Wow. Okay. Jared's just like unbelievable this is no it's believable it's just terrible that's all bone busters I just want to show this back glass these back glasses you can stretch to fit the entire screen but of course it's then stretched it looks terrible also what I do have to laugh at is godly premiere used the absolute smallest LEDs they could for displaying scores. And truth be told, this is about right. About the size, yeah. Yeah. That's pretty much right, yeah. Yeah. So I found it interesting, though. Okay, so obviously this particular score is part of the back glass. And so in the DMD area, they just put that big old Gottlieb logo. At least they put something there. With something. It looks like it's on the back of a mesh speaker panel. Yeah, okay. Compare that to TX Sector, where it had a dedicated spot, and so they put that into the DMD. So I appreciate that. That was nice. That works for me. And again, that's about the correct size for what the score displays were on. Is that right? Yeah. They are tiny, stupid little gas plasmas. Just beyond weak. So I just wanted to show that. That TX Sector back glass, by the way, is terrible. I hate that it's... And this is what it looks like in real life. I hate that it looks completely blown out, overexposed. It's just a bad photo. It's still not as bad as Genesis, but it's... Oh, Genesis back glass is just trash. Like, the artwork on Genesis back glass is horrible. The color choices on the entire play are a little horrible, too, but anyway. Everything's horrible. Yes, pepped up, abusing, we'll puke. Okay, so this is the play field for TX Sector. Okay, and I just want to kind of show this. TX Sector, relatively clear. The drop targets look proper. Yeah, that actually looks pretty good. It looks pretty good. I really do not have a complaint about the look of everything on this play field. Now, compare that to Victory. victory is exactly what it looks like in pinball arcade all that you know down at the bottom there where your eye is where it says scoring multiplier when flashing and don't lose it it's blurry yeah which is what's in your face it's blurry um interestingly enough that upper play field where it says making fuel that's clear which really drives me bonkers and the fact that that Stuff on the bottom is blurry. It's got janky corners every which way. Again, this was scanned. Was Victory Season 1 or Season 2? I can't remember, but it's in those first two years of Pinball Arcade. So it got a poor scan. It just did. It really did. I don't know if I have the picture. Okay, I'm going to have to look and see. Let me try and find this, because there was one thing that I showed Jared. that was also appalling um oh is that the zoomed in yes ray yes okay i'm gonna let me real quick let me real quick find this um because it's it's quite hilarious the thing i find strange about these the gottlieb tables yeah is the the just the disparity in quality between them You would have thought that if they're making a package like that, and specifically for something like the 4K, or even the one four years ago, let's just set the bar really, really low. Just spend some time normalizing the way these tables look so that they look the same. Yes. And sure, you're going to have problems with playfield capture and artifact capture and stuff like that. And, you know, maybe that's a bit one step too far to say, well, let's go and recapture everything. Oh, look at that. This is the ball lock. The ball sometimes doesn't even go in the saucer. It just hangs around. It just hangs around there. Looking completely flat. It's just terrible. Terrible. And just look at the, but you mean, that wasn't the thing that really jumped out at me when you showed me this picture. It was just the hexagonal nature of that lighting strip. Look at them. Oh, yeah. The rivets, the actual rivets that the small little fairy lights go into. Wow. Why don't you just make them square? Save a couple more polygons, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. That's the nature of what $25 buys you. um uh 25 us as well 25 us that's that's uh that's not no again this is this is not a knock on at games this is not at games because it's not at games problem they are not the ones that did the software problem this is purely 100 farsight going what's the bare minimal effort that we can do. And then let's go lower than that. Yeah. How much can we phone this in? Oh, about this much. About that much. Yeah. Now, that's not to say that the games aren't fun. Like I said, I've been putting in a lot of time on Victory. It really is a fun game. I enjoy playing it. And you know, Jack's Open and Big Shot, they play great. They are fun tables to play. You just wish that graphically they looked better. They just want them to be up to scratch. Yeah, and I think for people that are doing VPX, there's going to be no comparison. People who are actually playing these through VPX are going to be having a much better time playing these than they would on the packs supplied by Farsight. Yes. The other critique, because again, there's no sense in reviewing the gameplay itself because whether you play it in real life or whatever, Gottlieb did what Gottlieb needed to do and Farsight did that translation of that gameplay. It's there. That stuff is there. So if you love these tables, you're still going to love them. how are the physics they're pretty much what you expected from pimble arcade they're much more floaty um and there are still the vacuum ramps so that's still very much in play um the big disappointment comes in the sound department so two things again this is a software issue because it does not happen with any of the zen tables does not happen with any of the Magic Pixel tables. Oftentimes, you'll start up a Gottlieb table, and it'll do a speaker click. And you have to turn the game off, because I have my volume really low, but some people have their volume really high, and they're like, it'll blow out your speakers. Wow. I don't know what the cause is, but it's clearly a software thing, because it only happens with the Gottlieb tables. And you, basically, you start the table up four or five times, and eventually it goes away, and then it doesn't come back until you maybe start two or three other tables and then it'll reappear. So that's an issue that a lot of people have been complaining about. That will not be solved. Probably not. Probably not. The other issue. When you play an EM, what's the main thing that you hear? The chimes. Loud. Yeah, they're really loud. I cannot make them loud. I have the volume all the way up for them while lowering the sound effects volume or the mechanical effects volume down because the ball roll is so freaking loud to be distracting. You just constantly hear this of the ball rolling around. I'm just like, oh. and and farsight did this whole extra menu system of adjustments for sound and everything and it's very clunky and doesn't work like you would hope um but the fact that you can't make the chimes very loud is quite annoying um and then like i said the fact that you don't hear the reels turning in no way shape or form they just didn't record those is a crime no because that's part of the appeal there should also be a hum when you hold the flippers up that's not there in fact i think there was some ems where they did actually implement a flipper hum because i remember there was some wait on purpose like zended i mean uh farsighted firepower not firepower um fireball Fireball. I think you're right. I think they did Fireball. They actually added in a stroke sound and then a hold sound. But there were two separate sound effects that went in. So they did do it, just not like everything. Farsight developed things as a snapshot in time, I think is how I'd describe it. Once the table was done, it was done. and they would really go back and retroactively apply things they did in later seasons yeah and the lessons learned like i think it was hard enough for us to get switch animations put into some of the earlier tables oh yeah um you know after incessant badgering um on the forums to say look you know get just can we just get the animated switches put into all the tables and that was like a you know oh we have to go through and update them all it's like well yeah yeah so you know um Like I said, it's just a shame. I really wish Magic Pixel 100% got the Gottlieb license, because here's the thing. Magic Pixel's fit and finish on all their tables that are on this cabinet are gorgeous. They are. Top shelf. Yeah. Everything is crisp and clear, and the sound is really in your face, and the surround sound feedback kit, they utilized it to the max. They really knew what they were doing with that. Does that mean the Magic Pixel tables are better? Hell no. No. I'll go into that in a second. But their implementation of them is… Their implementation? Oh, my God. The Gottliebs would be fantastic if Magic Pixel got their hands on them. No doubt about it. we've been saying this for, well, at least four or five years. Oh, but longer than that. Yeah. To say that, you know, that Farsight just needs to let the license go and just like focus on their cornhole game and their bowling game or whatever the heck they're selling now. Whatever shovelware it is. Yeah. Um, and just give, give it up so other people can do stuff with the license. Yeah. Um, but there's, but here's the crux though. I'm finding myself playing the Gottlieb tables more than I am playing the Magic Pixel tables. Despite the fact that the graph, even in the quality that they are. And that's a weird conundrum. Do you think that's just because the Magic Pixel games are just fundamentally weird? Okay. When I say Magic Pixel, I mean the Zachariah table. Okay, so let me break it down to you like this. the magic pixel tato packs yeah are surprisingly great yes um they're very simple layouts very em early solid state era uh reminiscent there's not a whole if there's a ramp at all um it's just lane shooting and drop targets um and rules that fit that era the only thing that i would go on is magic pixels music sucks now some of these are incorporating tunes from the tito games and that's great um but even still magic pixel winds up throwing in some extra area where magic pixel can improve their score display on everything but their call it their core three games which are bubble bubble space invaders and project or operation wolf which are technically you can call them dmd games because they have the digital dmd but everything else uses a score reel but it's an even worse looking digital version it doesn't even attempt to try and look like a squirrel it's just like yep that's where a squirrel would be and there's some numbers that digitally change there but the title packs 100% get those they're fantastic the Dr. Seuss packs look beautiful have a pretty decent sound package in terms of again not mechanical effects but music, audio, not bad. A lot of good call-outs. Okay. But there is ramps and wire forms and third-level playfields everywhere to the point that you have no clue where you're to shoot, what to do, and unfortunately the rules are blah. same as those are the Seuss then you have the natural history tables same issue there's just multiple levels wire forms everywhere call outs aren't bad but the video DMD and this is across the board on every Zacharia deluxe table the Seuss tables and the natural history tables it does that same stupid kaleidoscope in the background with the exact same font across the board everywhere. It is poorly implemented, very lazy, just does not involve you in the least. You might as well have just given me a plain black and white score for what it's doing. It's just bad. um the deluxe tables again just over complicated ramps every which way but every single table essentially has the exact same rule set so they're just boring they're not interesting you feel like you played one you played them all um right but they look really good but they're just and and the thing is is i don't have any of the regular zacharia on there because I have them on the PC and I rarely play them there either because I didn't find the Zacharia tables all that interesting ever. They always seemed like cheap, bad knockoffs of a pinball machine you would actually want to play. So of all the Magic Pixels, like I said, the Taito packs, great. The end. And then you come into the Zen tables. So you've got Snoopy and Adam's family. They look fantastic. but you've got that damn flipper lag that you've got to deal with. Your brain can adjust, but where it can't adjust fast enough is on twitch reaction when the ball is bouncing between your flippers and you need to do that last second twitch. You're never going to be able to react fast enough because it's just a smidgen too late for when you visually see it to when you visually hit. It's something that Zen is very much working on. from reports, I guess, Attack from Mars, the cabinet, has now found its way into people's homes, and they're saying Attack from Mars does not have any lag. And that might be because Zen had already figured that one out for mobile. Maybe. And they just need to patch it. Yeah. So, but I know that Zen is very much working on that. Once Zen dials that in, those tables are going to be phenomenal. except for Zen's sound package. They don't know how to utilize the surround sound effect yet, the surround sound feedback kit. The under table noises are, boy, you can hear that ball drop into the subway. It's loud. It's like clunk. Yeah, but when a ball hits the flipper, it makes an audible clunk noise. What that is is it's what would have made your controller rumble. that shouldn't make a sound at all. And there are sounds like that, or a lot of the sounds sound muffled, as opposed to being, and again, it's so noticeable when you play, go from a Zen table to a Magic Pixel table Magic Pixels it sounds like this machine is in front of you The Zen table sounds like there this underwater filter in front of you. The effects were designed to be coming out of TV speakers or your headphones, therefore direct to you, whereas now they're filtering through speakers that are underneath the inside of the cabinet. They just need to dial the tone and make some trouble of it yeah make some adjustments or talk to magic pixel and go hey what are you guys doing because honestly they should just talk to magic pixel hey what lessons learned they should you know because magic pixel's been at this they've been they've had four years of practice on it yeah it shows like they execute that really well totally totally so i'm hoping that zen will get there uh that they don't just go well no this is us um i hope they don't do that i hope they dial it in specifically for this but we'll see speaking of zen new table announcements oh yeah uh so it's the universal tv uh what they call it classic collection is that uh sound about right sounds about right yeah so it's all the tv shows that we grew up with well that our generation is wrong with. Mel had hinted to me and Jared that he decided to pick properties that interested him. And I think this is a clear example of that. So we're getting a Knight Rider table. We're getting a Xena Warrior Princess table. And we're getting a Battlestar Galactica that would be the, not the 1970s Battlestar Galactica but the early remake Battlestar Galactica yeah table so three of those and the one that has me the most excited is the Knight Rider table so good all I've been able to see is the you know the really quick promo sizzle reel for it and wow that looks so good it looks so good You guys really need to check it out. Here's the thing you need to know. This is Deep's first table in like three years, and I love a table by Deep. He does fantastic work. Two, it's not about Michael Knight. It's about Kit. Thank God. I was really glad that there's no Hoff on the table because I just can't. And you think about it, right? Like that is exactly what it should be because then Kit is talking to you. Exactly. As Michael Knight. Exactly. Absolutely nailed that. That is beautiful. It also has reminiscent of Jurassic Park, that little treadmill part up on top. But what's cool is that the car jumps from the playfield up to that and back down, and it's doing a little Back to the Future DeLorean action with spinning out in the playfield. There's just a lot that I love about that trailer, and it's got me really excited. And on top of that, licensed music. Yes. love that music that just got me just like very happy to hear that um yeah because that's such an iconic part of that show too yes absolutely uh that table probably out of three it's got me the most excited oh yeah like just just from what i see without having actually flip it that's got me really interested yeah uh i never watched xena so i have no connection did you well of course you did All the time. All the time. Well, it wasn't quite a homegrown product. It was a cross the pond from you homegrown product. Yeah, that's right. It was actually produced in New Zealand, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, Xena was on TV all the time. I watched it all the time. It was definitely like a, I don't know, like say a Saturday night watch, you know. That one is a table by Anna. and it has an interesting figure eight thing going on up top that kind of reminds me of the getaway uh the supercharger a little bit a little bit i don't think i don't think it's the same kind of thing but what it reminds me a little bit also of one of the star wars tables of which the name eludes me um that had a similar sort of like a crossover ramp thing up the top um it's uh you could also say it's a little bit like uh dragons as well in that it's got that sort of like it sort of does a little sort of a loop like that as well so there's a bit of there's a bit of zen dna creeping into this table i think but i know that you pointed out the uh voice call out on that one sounds like lucy laws oh geez there if if that's not lucy that is a very very good sound alike yeah that they've got on that table and certainly the voiceover sounds like it's being lifted directly from the show. Okay. Like, yeah, the actual, the guy who does the narration. Oh, okay. The opening scenes. Okay. That sounds very much on point. So again, I know nothing about the show, so I have to defer to what you're noticing. Even like the likeness of all the animated, like they've got Lucy Lawless's likeness in that game for sure. Like it looks spot on. Yeah. And then there's the Battlestar Galactica table, which upon closer inspection of all the pictures is in the middle of the cast. No Starbuck. How weird that there's no Starbuck. Apparently, maybe Katie Sackhoff didn't want to play ball. I don't know. Yeah. That is rather odd. Maybe she costs too much because she's been in The Mandalorian now with Disney+. It's possible. And then I don't think it's Edward James Olmos' voice. It sounds to me like a sound alike. Yeah, it's definitely not. But apparently he's the voice of the table, from what I can tell. Yes, he's the narrator. Now, let's just hope that all three of these tables have good shot callouts. Let's use those voiceover artists and make sure they do appropriate levels of shoot here and shoot here callouts. I really hope. As always, we always hope. yes um zen did tease out a fourth table um it's pretty obvious if you know what you're looking at yes um i'm not going to voice because i 100 know what it is um so i'm not going to say it here in case you all want to uh play the guessing game but it's pretty obvious if you know what you're looking at um yes so uh well the one thing i did want to address with this announcement because i i really for zen original pack this one does hit the nostalgia sweet spot for me so that's oh yeah fantastic i love that but you go into the comments of the announcement video and it's probably a 10 to 1 of people going really no williams collection what are you guys even doing you might as well just give it up and well what's the rule you can't you can't please everybody you know we've said it time and time again when zen got the williams license the zen fans wanted nothing to do with the williams tables they were like not those boring tables who wants those i want all the who wants those and then when zen did what was it five packs of Williams in a row? Wasn't that... People were like, when are we going to get a Zen original again? So, here you get this and people are going, what? No pinball M? No Williams? It's like, just being thankful that something interesting is coming down the pike. You know, more stuff is coming. It's not like the door has been closed on any of this. You just gotta wait, but I mean, Mel has confirmed. There's only 12 tables or something like that this year. Yeah. It's not going to be 25. And there will absolutely be Williams coming out this year. Yes. He confirmed it as such on the show with us last year. So just put your patient hat on and just wait. It's coming. And then you can complain about not having enough Sin Originals or whatever you want to do. No, they'll complain that not enough Pinball M. Pinball M. Because, you know, it's going to be one, whatever one hasn't had a release most recently will then get the, where is it, love? Yeah. Well, you know. Oh, I will say, Pinball M on the cabinet looks pretty fantastic. Nice. Again, it suffers from the same lag issue that I'm dealing with. But, again, that's on my end, not on Zen's. That's a video card. It's a hardware issue. um yeah but what i'm zen just include the back glass imagery please just please yeah because i'm sick and tired i literally spent two hours hunting down back glass imagery i found somebody that had a pack i downloaded that pack there were certain images i didn't like or care for they're not even the images that you guys use um it's you you've made all the images you have them just include them why do they show up in the table model right in the middle of the game right why do we have to go through the effort of finding them downloading them and then naming them appropriately and putting them where they need to be in the steam file that's ridiculous just include it it's a cruel and unusual punishment to have to do when they are all there like the and this is this has it yeah this is minimal effort like it shouldn't take you guys any effort again you already have these images just put them in the steam file where they belong i would love animated a back glass. Would love that. Would love it if the lights were dimming here and there. That would be fantastic. I understand that would take a little bit more effort. And I'm hoping that you're going there. But for now, just include this basic thing. The other thing that I will say, Adam's family, what happened to the thing lights? Oh yeah. They're gone. And you have on with the Legends 4K table. It's got the proper aspect ratio for the DMD. It's the 4 to 1 aspect. So you've got top and bottom. There's plenty of room to include the thing lights and use that space. Yep, get it ready for Whirlwind and all the other tables that are coming. Exactly. They need them. Especially if you're not doing animated back glasses because those tables will need that animated back glass. I think of a table like Dr. Dude where it has the flipping image. Yes. We need that. I mean, well, I shouldn't say we need that. That really doesn't do anything. But, you know, if you did Bride of Pinbot, all the lights that go up and down her leg, we need those. Whirlwind, we need those. Yeah, anything with progressive jackpots or random awards that are displayed on the back glass, that's just part of the game that needs to be represented. Yep. so yeah uh i hope you're listening then because don't be lazy like magic pixel yeah i know it comes down to it's like i'm going to have a whole host of new things that i'm like keyed up about because i have a cabinet now um yes that's right but oh something i forgot to mention about the cabinet and i'm gonna have to try and uh wrangle up this and confirm my buddy has a quest 2 uh vr headset that he says i can borrow but apparently the cabinet the at the games legends 4k cabinet can be used as a controller for vr with full surround sound feedback kit working wow okay that's amazing yeah yeah so basically you've got a pin sim right there yep wow okay that's very cool yep so um uh i'll have to uh i'll work on confirming that eventually but that's very very cool um that you can do that so you know as an aside i saw this um well i saw news that actually a friend of the show wilbur's shared in our discord apparently um there's a big update happening to Magic Pixel coming down the pipe. I'd like to say it was this month or perhaps next month. And it is, I'll just go and have a check. But yeah, he was saying that the Magic Pixel game is getting a bump. So big update in Q2 2024. So between April and June. So something's cooking. Don't know what it is, but it looks like there's work being done and also Wilbur's confirms that they're also addressing AMD drivers on the Steam Deck as well. So if you're a Steam Deck user, it looks like there's an update potentially coming down the line for UFOK as well, which is great news. So yeah, I wonder what they're going to be doing. It wouldn't surprise me if they're getting themselves in line with the AtGames version of things. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Yeah, I'd hope so. Because there is a difference. You look at the tables. There is a difference between the two. PC. PC, yeah. With the PC, I mean, the PC looks great, but it does look a little bit dated. And the physics on the AtGames are phenomenal. They're great. They're really, really good. Magic Pixel, the Zachariah Pinball app, they're a little floaty. They feel like Farsight's physics. But the ones on the cab do not feel like Farsight's physics. They feel really tight and great. And so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the kind of thing that they've gone back and tweaked. And hopefully, hopefully, they tweak that god-awful UI. Oh, yeah. That would be nice. Yeah. Yeah. well that's some good news so thanks Wilbiz for keeping an eye on that sort of thing for us yeah it could be very nice I want to have an excuse to play Zachary Amore but I just can't find it compared to some of the other titles that are out there you know alright well I guess that's enough of that I'll be back to trying to tinker on 8 Ball Deluxe get that wrapped up so I can start the Ominous Project of Firepower. Oh, yeah. Hopefully I'll eventually get that video card so then I can dive into getting the baller installer going on the AtGames cabinet. And hopefully Zen fixes some things. If there's other reviews that you want me to do, I couldn't resist on these. These Gottlieb ones, I just couldn't. If you want me to go through some of the Gottlieb packs, let us know. I can go through that if that's of interest to you. I know that obviously all this AtGames talk is for a very small segment of our audience. Yeah, that's right. So I don't want to... Not all the folks have it. Yeah, if that doesn't interest you guys, just let me know and I won't bother. I'll save that for a... Yeah, we'll dial it back a bit. Yeah, I'll save that for a separate non-main episode kind of video. Yeah. But... I've noticed as well, just as a final point about AtGames stuff, It looks like there's a European partner for AtGames now. Excellent. So I've seen ads on, I think, forget where I saw it, but there's a partner over in Europe that is, I think, importing them. I'd like to say, I think it was Robo, RoboSuperJackpot, friend of the show, who pointed out to me or to this, I think the Pinball FX community, that, yeah, they're someone that's actually going to be importing them to Europe but boy there's a Europe tax on these like I thought Australia tax was bad but I think there's an extra thousand dollars on top of the cost of the game well we're talking euros here I think it's like nearly 2000 euro to get one of these and that puts it that puts it at the I may as well get a local pinball made myself. Digital pinball made myself. Because that's what I'll say. At the price point, like full MSRP, I think it's $1,500. But then if you want the surround sound feedback kit, full MSRP, and delivery cost, you're basically at $2,000 now. That's US. That's US. And that's really pushing the boundaries between, the tipping point between, do I go with this or do I just go with a full VirtuaCab that is much bigger, has more bells and whistles and is going to play all of VPX and it's still contained as well so it has the hardware built into it I think from memory and this announcement was made a while ago, I think the SKU that they're shipping to Europe will actually have the surround sound kit built into it as part of the the standard offering, which is probably reflecting of the price, given that it's 2,000 US with all that stuff fitted. So the 2,400 euro with all importation costs and all that sort of overhead that the importer needs to add on is, you know, you can see it. You can see where the money's going. But, I mean, if they even consider importing down to Oceania and New Zealand, Australia, that thing is going to be three grand Australian. And that's a... No. I can get a virtual cabinet down here with a PC in it for about four and a half, albeit not a great PC, but I can still get one. Yeah. So that's like a no. Yeah. Like I said, it's a great entry level. I have no doubt about that. It gives you the bug. It gives you the bug, 100%. And I like scratching that itch. but once you get to a certain price point then you might as well start paying and getting the good stuff having it as a VR controller is attractive I'm not going to lie like I said I'm going to be borrowing that Quest 2 and seeing how well it works my Quest 2 is sitting there on charge getting updates just waiting for the end of the year allegedly for the VR package I'm ready I'm absolutely ready for it bring it on okay well that's all we got for you this week next week Jared what are we talking about stuff and things till then folks bye bye see you later everyone